2aHawaii
General Topics => Off Topic => Topic started by: SOLEsource684 on March 20, 2014, 07:49:53 PM
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Wow.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/21/hawaii-law-allows-undercover-police-officers-to-have-sex-with-prostitutes/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/21/hawaii-law-allows-undercover-police-officers-to-have-sex-with-prostitutes/)
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Gives a whole new meaning to working "under (the) covers".
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i like! :thumbsup:
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It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it, or her.......OK or HIM [ EEwww] :wtf:
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There is a hilarious south park episode similar to this situation
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I like this law.
It should be part of the benefit package for officers.
:thumbsup:
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:wtf:
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Can't imagine who the hell thinks this is good!? Divorce lawyers? VD MD's? And if the Intent is to prove some manini prostitution crime? I would think most cops would be against it so when they need to investigate some toothless tranny they could say "sorry boss....couldn't do it, it's against the law!!".
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I find it ridiculous that they have to actually penetrate or whatever to prove prostitution. I don't understand why they can't just verbally agree to a sex act for money while the cop wears a wire. Why must the office actually have intercourse with the prostitute?
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I find it ridiculous that they have to actually penetrate or whatever to prove prostitution. I don't understand why they can't just verbally agree to a sex act for money while the cop wears a wire. Why must the office actually have intercourse with the prostitute?
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Think about this. A lot of these prostitutes are probably forced into doing what they are doing. They don't want to get smashed by random dudes for money. They probably don't even get to keep a dime. Then here comes a cop, bangs her, then arrests her, further victimizing someone who didn't want to sleep with people for money in the first place. Why should police officers, who are paid to protect victims of crimes by our hard earned tax dollars, be approved by law to further victimize a young woman who was forced into what she does in the first place.
Now I'm not saying all prostitutes are victims or that they shouldn't be arrested. Sure, they should be arrested but they should be arrested with the intent of catching the guy who is putting them out there on the street.
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^^ +1 :thumbsup: no need for the law(man) to further victimize the victims of human exploitation.
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make it legal and regulate
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Kinda odd this thing is with lawmakers publicly. You would think every PD has an internal policy that their officers can't bang prostitutes unless dire situations warrant it. However, I believe some things should not be public knowledge (i.e., how far undercover officers can go), and this applies to others areas as well. Once the individual or individuals know what the break point is, they have an advantage. I don't think any LEO simply trying to bust prostitutes or pimps needs to actually go through with the sex act ...I believe in general prostitutes insist on getting paid upfront.
Now, major and I mean major criminal activities, and not just prostitution alone, could potentially require this to occur (e.g., major drug distribution, organized crime, etc), whereas if a undercover officer didn't do this, it could potentially risk blowing his cover or potentially result in death by the criminal elements involved. But again, If this were the case, which I doubt, why make it public knowledge.
You got to really ask....is this really a problem in Hawaii that needs lawmakers attention?
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Think about this. A lot of these prostitutes are probably forced into doing what they are doing. They don't want to get smashed by random dudes for money. They probably don't even get to keep a dime. Then here comes a cop, bangs her, then arrests her, further victimizing someone who didn't want to sleep with people for money in the first place. Why should police officers, who are paid to protect victims of crimes by our hard earned tax dollars, be approved by law to further victimize a young woman who was forced into what she does in the first place.
Now I'm not saying all prostitutes are victims or that they shouldn't be arrested. Sure, they should be arrested but they should be arrested with the intent of catching the guy who is putting them out there on the street.
You've been watching too many lifetime movies.
No prostitutes are forced into anything.
They're a bunch of uneducated, lazy b!#ches that want to make an easy buck off horny old dudes.
If you had any idea about how much money a prostiture made, you'd poop your drawers.
Prostitution is illegal and if they get arrested then so be it.
Why punish a police officer for doing his job.
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You've been watching too many lifetime movies.
No prostitutes are forced into anything.
They're a bunch of uneducated, lazy b!#ches that want to make an easy buck off horny old dudes.
If you had any idea about how much money a prostiture made, you'd poop your drawers.
Prostitution is illegal and if they get arrested then so be it.
Why punish a police officer for doing his job.
That is simply not true. I know this because my dad is a pastor who works primarily with homeless and people who were previously incarcerated including the RAM program in Kahaluu. The drugs they did was their choice. The partying was their choice. They are not innocent victims who never made a bad decision in their lives but for many of them prostitution was not something they sat down and said, "hmmm, I could make a ton of money sleeping with men." Again, I can't speak for every single one of them. Perhaps some did make that conscious decision all on their own but I promise you it isn't all of them. So what does a cop do, only sleep with women who tell him they love their jobs, and then arrest them? C'mon man.
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sex slavery is a real thing and there's a lot of it here. the only way to put a dent in it is to legalize prostitution and regulate it so victims are not afraid to come forward and get double victimized by the 'law'. for some women sex work is their gift and sometimes its the only thing they are good at. just the way it is, and it makes no sense to punish them to keep up the pretense of moral values. This cop sex thing just brings it up to the front how backwards our value system really is.
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sex slavery is a real thing and there's a lot of it here. the only way to put a dent in it is to legalize prostitution and regulate it so victims are not afraid to come forward and get double victimized by the 'law'. for some women sex work is their gift and sometimes its the only thing they are good at. just the way it is, and it makes no sense to punish them to keep up the pretense of moral values. This cop sex thing just brings it up to the front how backwards our value system really is.
I really couldn't back the idea of making prostitution legal. I couldn't possibly desire my daughters to grow up in a society where it's treated like any old other job.
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Looks like the legislators are choosing to do the right thing.
Hawaii lawmakers to end prostitution exemption: http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii-lawmakers-to-end-prostitution-exemption/25098134
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Looks like the legislators are choosing to do the right thing.
Hawaii lawmakers to end prostitution exemption: http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii-lawmakers-to-end-prostitution-exemption/25098134 (http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii-lawmakers-to-end-prostitution-exemption/25098134)
May mean some pissed off cops have to resort to their wives for sex now. just kidding
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Lol. What a novel idea!
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That is simply not true. I know this because my dad is a pastor who works primarily with homeless and people who were previously incarcerated including the RAM program in Kahaluu. The drugs they did was their choice. The partying was their choice. They are not innocent victims who never made a bad decision in their lives but for many of them prostitution was not something they sat down and said, "hmmm, I could make a ton of money sleeping with men." Again, I can't speak for every single one of them. Perhaps some did make that conscious decision all on their own but I promise you it isn't all of them. So what does a cop do, only sleep with women who tell him they love their jobs, and then arrest them? C'mon man.
So you heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy?
Prostitutes are well seasoned liars.
If you're a "sex slave" you don't just get to walk away from that.
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So you heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy?
Prostitutes are well seasoned liars.
If you're a "sex slave" you don't just get to walk away from that.
No sir. I heard it from a former prostitute. And she didn't just walk away. She went to jail on her pimps drug charges. Hence the reason she is in a court ordered drug rehab program.
Maybe you're right and they are seasoned liars and some love what they do but to pretend like sex slavery is some kind of fantasy issue is either optimism or ignorance.
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My daddy always said "prostitutes are like a box of chocolates. You got to pay more the the good ones " :crazy:
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^^ +1 :thumbsup: no need for the law(man) to further victimize the victims of human exploitation.
Totally agree with this opinion. There is a kind of double victimization going on here.
Anyway, arrest the damned PIMPS!!! Not the girls who are victimized!!!!
Having said that, there ARE "career prostitutes" who do not have pimps and are not forced into it. (Some of those make much more money than all of us here put together! LOL)
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Maybe you're right and they are seasoned liars and some love what they do but to pretend like sex slavery is some kind of fantasy issue is either optimism or ignorance.
Sex slavery is real, like getting struck by lightning and winning the lottery is real.
It happens, but you hear about it a lot more from Hollywood B.S. than in real life.
To think that a woman with a pimp is a sex slave is sheer ignorance.
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I thought about it and what you say rings true, KK. Thanks for teaching me something real.
I concede the point ... yes, the instances where women go into prostitution willingly for easy money is probably more the norm than the exception. The male "pimp" is probably there for the woman's protection.
I wonder if this more the case in the US though, vs other countries. I've lived in Asia for example and do know of cases where young girls from the provinces are promised good paying jobs in the city and end up in prostitution rings after their employer flies them away from their families. In some instances where they are flown abroad, their passports get taken away from them by their employers so they have no escape and are easily controlled.
While prostitution is clearly illegal, it seems that the circumstances of prostitutes are not always a black and white case.
But back to topic though, LEO already have a lot of powers/privileges that the regular law-abiding Joe doesn't have. Why do LEOs need a free pass to commit prostitution, which is illegal? Do they need that power / privilege to do their job, which is to keep the public peace?
IANAL, but LEOs have the power to legally arrest or shoot us... do we need to add legal screwing to the list too?
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But back to topic though, LEO already have a lot of powers/privileges that the regular law-abiding Joe doesn't have. Why do LEOs need a free pass to commit prostitution, which is illegal? Do they need that power / privilege to do their job, which is to keep the public peace?
IANAL, but LEOs have the power to legally arrest or shoot us... do we need to add legal screwing to the list too?
I think what is happening here is that most people here are taking the "legally able to have sex with a prostitute" thing out of context.
Police officers on an undercover drug operation might have to taste a pinch of cocaine or take a hit of weed to "prove" that they're not a "cop".
By the same token, an undercover officer in a prostitution sting might have to penetrate a prostitute before she takes money from him.
If the police officer was subject to arrest and prosecution for doing any of the above mentioned things, they would be ineffective in their job.
I believe the intention of the "law" is to allow a police officer to effectively do his (or her) job without fear of prosecution, or worse death (being killed in an undercover operation)
By the same token, I believe if an officer that was not actively involved in an undercover operation and just simply was caught having sex with a prostitute, they would be prosecuted accordingly.
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http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/19402905/paramedics-help-sex-trafficking-victims (http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/19402905/paramedics-help-sex-trafficking-victims)
Human trafficking and sex slavery are very real and a very big problem here. Sure there are independent contractors rolling in dough and making payments on sports cars, but on the other end of the spectrum there's plenty of girls/women/boys trapped in cycles of psychological and physical abuse. It's hard for an economically stable guy living on the right side of the tracks in a first world country to even consider the horror of being forced into a situation like that, but when the cops don't listen and there's no one to turn to it's easy to get stuck especially when the average age they start working is 13.
For drug investigations where lives are in danger it's understandable to make exceptions, but having an exemption for penetration either says the cops are incapable of doing quality police work or there is a system set up that gives them 'perks of the job' in exchange for looking the other way. If they ever release the internal investigation records I'm sure there would be lots of interesting reading based on what some cops here have actually managed to get convicted for over the years.
Don't get me wrong. It's cool how they leave you alone unless you are really messing up. I've lived in states where they send swat teams to a house party, racially profile the hell out of people to the point of harassment and use every trick in the book to confiscate (steal) your stuff, but this whole penetration thing is a national embarrassment.
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Sex slavery is real, like getting struck by lightning and winning the lottery is real.
It happens, but you hear about it a lot more from Hollywood B.S. than in real life.
To think that a woman with a pimp is a sex slave is sheer ignorance.
Slavery doesn't mean that these women have to be chained up in a basement the second that they get off the clock. There are other forms of control as well. They use fear, drugs, intimidation, etc. I think you are failing to recognize that slavery doesn't have to be a physical slavery. These woman are mentally and emotionally enslaved to their pimps.
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Again, I'm not saying all of them are being used this way. I'm sure some are completely willing to do what they do.
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I think what is happening here is that most people here are taking the "legally able to have sex with a prostitute" thing out of context.
Police officers on an undercover drug operation might have to taste a pinch of cocaine or take a hit of weed to "prove" that they're not a "cop".
By the same token, an undercover officer in a prostitution sting might have to penetrate a prostitute before she takes money from him.
If the police officer was subject to arrest and prosecution for doing any of the above mentioned things, they would be ineffective in their job.
I believe the intention of the "law" is to allow a police officer to effectively do his (or her) job without fear of prosecution, or worse death (being killed in an undercover operation)
By the same token, I believe if an officer that was not actively involved in an undercover operation and just simply was caught having sex with a prostitute, they would be prosecuted accordingly.
Thanks KK. I thought undercover cops usually have to assault or kill someone first to prove they are not a cop. Just joking!
I don't really know anything about undercover cops, but that job sounds like it's not a job to take lightly. When a LEO is working undercover and they have to commit a crime, what exemptions do they have now? In the vein of allowing them to commit prostitution legally, do they also have legal exemptions for committing other crimes while undercover? Do they have exemptions for taking drugs while being undercover? For bank robbery? For assaulting someone? When someone goes undercover, don't they have some kind of internal procedure in place to deal with this kind of thing already?
I wonder how often undercover cops are told to screw a prostitute at the threat of death to prove they are not undercover? The scenario that sounds more plausible in this case is an undercover cop screwing a prostitute before busting them for prostitution.
Up to where is the line drawn? My concern is... How much powers do we legally grant to the government before we have crossed the line of excessive government powers (vs affirming the rights of the individual)?
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I agree with KK.
I talked to a bunch of officers about this and they all say it's free reign for prostitution and pimps in Hawaii with the repeal of the exemption.
They say most prostitutes do a "cop check"
Cop: How much for sex
Hooker: I don't know, How about you grab my crotch or stick a finger in me and tell me what you think ( first degree sex assault. Penetration doesn't have to be with a ding-a-ling)
Cop: Uh, I can't.
Hooker: Later Cop.
A lot of times the only way to get to the pimp is to get to the Hooker.
And the cops I talk to say penetration is not about screwing them, it's about getting past the cop check.
And all these defense attorneys talk about the abuses of this by HPD, but what, none of them are suing HPD, the county govt. etc. :wtf:
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Good discussion, aieahound and KK. Here I am again learning something new. Thank you for the education.
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Good news is they'll probably still be able to catch the tranvestites in Chinatown though. :shake:
(Although they might be their own pimps. Looks like some of them would kick some serious ass. All observations based on the HBO documentary. :D )
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:shake: :shake: :shake:
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Thanks KK. I thought undercover cops usually have to assault or kill someone first to prove they are not a cop. Just joking!
I don't really know anything about undercover cops, but that job sounds like it's not a job to take lightly. When a LEO is working undercover and they have to commit a crime, what exemptions do they have now? In the vein of allowing them to commit prostitution legally, do they also have legal exemptions for committing other crimes while undercover? Do they have exemptions for taking drugs while being undercover? For bank robbery? For assaulting someone? When someone goes undercover, don't they have some kind of internal procedure in place to deal with this kind of thing already?
I wonder how often undercover cops are told to screw a prostitute at the threat of death to prove they are not undercover? The scenario that sounds more plausible in this case is an undercover cop screwing a prostitute before busting them for prostitution.
Up to where is the line drawn? My concern is... How much powers do we legally grant to the government before we have crossed the line of excessive government powers (vs affirming the rights of the individual)?
Just a comment about other crimes committed and my two cents....
As an example...FBI Special Agent Joseph Pistone infiltrated the Mafia’s Bonanno family and would have likely became a made member but they wanted him to murder a Capo, which he got out of and later contracted to murder another Capo’s son. They wanted him to participate in a mafia hit to prove his loyalty to the family before becoming a made man. At this point he was pulled for obvious reasons after six years of being undercover. During his six years with the mob he committed numerous crimes on a regular basis. His only restrictions were he couldn’t commit crimes of violence.
Several mobsters were killed when the FBI revealed that Pistone was an FBI agent but in the end, the evidence Pistone collected led to over 200 indictments and over 100 convictions of Mafia members. So was committing non-violent crimes worth it? I believe so.
My point is sometimes the juice is worth the squeeze and it really depends on the scope and context of the operation. Now getting a BJ from a streetwalker should obviously be prohibited but by internal policy, not by law. Making a blanket law prohibited this in all situations across the board, with no exceptions, just shows your cards. IMO what law enforcement agencies can or cannot do should be properly vetted and become policy but should not be public knowledge. When it is public knowledge, the criminal element knows the break point and can generally ascertain who is a LEO in short order. In the end, advantage goes to the criminals.
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Thanks for the added comments, Bunker. Pretty interesting stuff. Being an undercover LEO sounds like a pretty tough job.
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My point is sometimes the juice is worth the squeeze and it really depends on the scope and context of the operation. Now getting a BJ from a streetwalker should obviously be prohibited but by internal policy, not by law. Making a blanket law prohibited this in all situations across the board, with no exceptions, just shows your cards. IMO what law enforcement agencies can or cannot do should be properly vetted and become policy but should not be public knowledge. When it is public knowledge, the criminal element knows the break point and can generally ascertain who is a LEO in short order. In the end, advantage goes to the criminals.
Well put Bunker. That about sums up my view on it. :thumbsup:
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Funny.
I've read HB 1926 which is a revision of Section 706-606.5 (re: repeat offenders) and surrounding statutes and I can find NOTHING that exempts HPD Officer, undercover or not from having sex with a prostitute. :wtf: