2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: Dregs on May 02, 2011, 03:57:50 PM
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So the gf was going to walk to my work in Waikiki after she finished her work, and I jokingly told her to bring my handgun with her so I don't have to go home just to pick it up and drive back to Kapahulu again (working on DIY leather holster with the old man).
She said "Ok" and I told her HELL NO lol. But that got me thinking, are there any provisions for transportation of firearms without a car? Such as walking with a locked case (in your backpack or whatever), bicycling to kokohead, etc. If NOT, then is that a form of discrimination based on financial status? So people only wealthy enough to own a car or access to a car can own a firearm? Or is that just how it works pretty much everywhere else in this country? *edit* I have heard of legislation in other states where having a firearm not plainly visible is considered concealed carry and requires a CCWP, but having it fully visible, such as on the seat next to you, is considered open carry. So whether you have a car or not is not relevant. What matters is if it's visible or not. Being locked in a case is it's own category of transportation, but should also share the irrelevance of being in a vehicle or not, and retain the nullifying effect of NOT requiring a CCW just to transport firearms. *edit*
If walking with a locked case on your person that is not easily accessible is considered concealed carry, then under the same principle, having a locked case not easily accessible in your vehicle can also be considered concealed carrying. Having an unlocked gun in your dashboard is going to be considered illegally carrying your weapon concealed, just as carrying it unlocked on your body would be considered illegal CCW. You have it locked in a case and it is no longer concealed carry, but a firearm being transported. But I'm guessing same thing does not apply for on your body, and you'll be faceplanted into the concrete on a Saturday afternoon when you try to explain that it's completely locked in your backpack and you're headed to a private range in town because your wife took the car to take her cousins out because they're visiting from the mainland and you have no interest in going shopping and touring with them and it's your first chance of having some free time in a very long time and you know you won't have another chance until next month so you decided to bus it to the range. *breathe*
Just tickling my brain here. Someone enlighten me! :thumbsup:
*edit*
I started confusing myself here, so in simpler terms:
Encasing a weapon in an approved container renders your status from illegally concealing a firearm to lawfully transporting your firearm - in vehicular terms. Is it the same when on your person?
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Case doesn't have to be locked, just an enclosed container. Furthermore, if she had the "gun", she would need to be on the permit. Additionally, transportation "To my boyfriend's place of work" is not a listed place of transportation.
Also, TheBUS has a restriction on explosives, and after speaking with some family who works there, he would believe that would apply to ammunition. I haven't gotten to really looking at this yet. Remember you are only lawfully transporting if you go to the places listed in the HRS. With that said, a firearm case is *NOT* resonable suspicion for a search. So never let someone check your case. You don't have to disclose what is in the case to the bus drivers either.
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The girlfriend part was just a joke which I of course told her I was just joking and not walk over there with it.
What if you don't have a car or a ride though? You pretty much just can't buy a gun? You can't go to a store, buy a gun, wrap it in brown paper, take the bus to go home. Or hell, wrap it in paper and walk home. Or down to HPD to get it registered. Or to the range. You pretty much have to have a car or a ride huh?
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Not sure what gave you the idea that a vehicle is needed. HRS just requires it be unloaded and in an enclosed container while being transported between A and B. How do you get from A to B? Walk, bike, bus, or drive that is really up to you, as long as you don't violate other laws that may apply.
As far as brown paper wrapping goes, that does not meet the requirements for approved transport (a rigidly constructed receptacle).
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Not sure what gave you the idea that a vehicle is needed. HRS just requires it be unloaded and in an enclosed container while being transported between A and B. How do you get from A to B? Walk, bike, bus, or drive that is really up to you, as long as you don't violate other laws that may apply.
As far as brown paper wrapping goes, that does not meet the requirements for approved transport (a rigidly constructed receptacle).
This is correct, but they let people do it from the gun show....
Kind of stupid imo, but a good thing sorta. Would suck to not be able to transport home because you don't have a container.
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This is correct, but they let people do it from the gun show....
Kind of stupid imo, but a good thing sorta. Would suck to not be able to transport home because you don't have a container.
Yep, how they do it at gun shows has always left me scratching my head. Brown bagging it is "technically" illegal once you drive off the private property where the show is being held. So whether I plan to buy something or not, I leave an empty case in the car. :thumbsup:
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Maybe if the brown bag is given to you by a seller, it is a "commercially made" container :)
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Could you see someone hoping on the bus with their rifle in a "paper wrap" lol... man I bet that would go over well ;).
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Awesome stuff! Thanks!
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I researched and wrote an article on this for the Hawaii Rifleman a while back. Called and questioned HPD pretty extensively. Provided you have the gun and ammo properly cased, you can legally carry them on a motorcycle, on a bicycle, on a Segue, and on your person. I was explicitly told by the officer (I forget his name, but he was a supervisor in the Firearms Dept) that I could walk to Kokohead carrying my firearms, so long as I met the requirements for transporting them.
C&C rules prohibit guns and ammo on The Bus. Taxi companies each have their own regulations about whether you're allowed to transport firearms, and whether or not you have to disclose the fact.
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That is actually very awesome! Thank you! Learned something today!
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I have, on two occasions, while teaching a class at one of the Waikiki ranges, transported several firearms in their cases, while walking between the two ranges. I also had an empty hoslter on my belt and passed two cops. I even stopped to talk to one of them because I thought I knew him. Turns out I didn't, but other than a curious glance, I had no problems.
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Interesting to learn that you can transport a firearm without a car, even walking. I'd wondered about that myself, and if I were violating any laws the one time I parked on Beretania St. and walked over a couple blocks to register a firearm. But a police officer saw me and had no problem with it.
I guess the next question to ask would be, what if you were walking a firearm somewhere, and you got tired and decided to sit down somewhere? Would you then be breaking the law? I'm guessing it would, if you stopped walking anywhere other than in the street/sidewalk, because that would count as taking your firearm somewhere that it is not supposed to be.
Or what if you kept walking but entered an area like a shopping center, a parking lot, etc? Would that be breaking the law?
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I guess the next question to ask would be, what if you were walking a firearm somewhere, and you got tired and decided to sit down somewhere? Would you then be breaking the law? I'm guessing it would, if you stopped walking anywhere other than in the street/sidewalk, because that would count as taking your firearm somewhere that it is not supposed to be.
Or what if you kept walking but entered an area like a shopping center, a parking lot, etc? Would that be breaking the law?
I think stopping to rest would be iffy and depend more on whether you're on a direct route to an approved destination.
Entering a shopping center/parking lot opens you up to other issues regardless of whether it's "on the way" to the destination. It's private property, so even if you were following the letter of the law, the property owner can call the police and file a complaint. At best, you could be warned and sent on your way. At worst, you can be trespassed from the property. Best bet is to avoid the hassles and be aware of where you are at all times when transporting.
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I guess the next question to ask would be, what if you were walking a firearm somewhere, and you got tired and decided to sit down somewhere? Would you then be breaking the law? I'm guessing it would, if you stopped walking anywhere other than in the street/sidewalk, because that would count as taking your firearm somewhere that it is not supposed to be.
Or what if you kept walking but entered an area like a shopping center, a parking lot, etc? Would that be breaking the law?
I think stopping to rest would be iffy and depend more on whether you're on a direct route to an approved destination.
Entering a shopping center/parking lot opens you up to other issues regardless of whether it's "on the way" to the destination. It's private property, so even if you were following the letter of the law, the property owner can call the police and file a complaint. At best, you could be warned and sent on your way. At worst, you can be trespassed from the property. Best bet is to avoid the hassles and be aware of where you are at all times when transporting.
At worse you would be charged with a firearms violation,,,,,
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I researched and wrote an article on this for the Hawaii Rifleman a while back. Called and questioned HPD pretty extensively. Provided you have the gun and ammo properly cased, you can legally carry them on a motorcycle, on a bicycle, on a Segue, and on your person. I was explicitly told by the officer (I forget his name, but he was a supervisor in the Firearms Dept) that I could walk to Kokohead carrying my firearms, so long as I met the requirements for transporting them.
C&C rules prohibit guns and ammo on The Bus. Taxi companies each have their own regulations about whether you're allowed to transport firearms, and whether or not you have to disclose the fact.
This is consistent with my reading of the statute which I did, again, yesterday after my friend got me concerned about transporting firearms in a truck. He drives a single cab truck with no space behind the bench seats and locks and covers his gun cases in the bed of of his truck. He understood that the law prohibits the transportation of firearms in the front bench seat of the truck where it is readily accessible and I seem to remember hearing this before. The law, however, appears to be silent about the the transportation of firearms and ammunition and the type of vehicles they may be transported in.
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Interesting to learn that you can transport a firearm without a car, even walking. I'd wondered about that myself, and if I were violating any laws the one time I parked on Beretania St. and walked over a couple blocks to register a firearm. But a police officer saw me and had no problem with it.
I guess the next question to ask would be, what if you were walking a firearm somewhere, and you got tired and decided to sit down somewhere? Would you then be breaking the law? I'm guessing it would, if you stopped walking anywhere other than in the street/sidewalk, because that would count as taking your firearm somewhere that it is not supposed to be.
Or what if you kept walking but entered an area like a shopping center, a parking lot, etc? Would that be breaking the law?
Might seem obvious, but if this isn't the case, you couldn't walk to your car or from your car with the firearm........... :shaka:
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Its a looooong walk to Kokohead since you can't stop at a bathroom anywhere along the way.
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I guess the next question to ask would be, what if you were walking a firearm somewhere, and you got tired and decided to sit down somewhere? Would you then be breaking the law? I'm guessing it would, if you stopped walking anywhere other than in the street/sidewalk, because that would count as taking your firearm somewhere that it is not supposed to be.
Or what if you kept walking but entered an area like a shopping center, a parking lot, etc? Would that be breaking the law?
Key terms are a place of sojourn. So if you are going home from work and stop at a friends house then you can take it there because it is a place of sojourn.
Going shopping I am not sure that would apply. If you left it in your car while you shopped on your way home from the range than I don't think it is an issue. I have seen instances where firearms were stollen from cars while they were on their way home and stopped somewhere but the individuals were not suspect for reporting them stolen. If it were a pistol in a case in a backpack then the shopping center would never know.
I have even heard of a story where 3 men were bothering a guy at the bar so the guy left. The guys then followed him to his car and were threatening him. He took out a pistol from the car, loaded it, and shot three of them as they were going to beat him up or something. As I understand it the man was not charged with anything, not even illegal transport of the firearm.
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Key terms are a place of sojourn. So if you are going home from work and stop at a friends house then you can take it there because it is a place of sojourn.
Going shopping I am not sure that would apply. If you left it in your car while you shopped on your way home from the range than I don't think it is an issue. I have seen instances where firearms were stollen from cars while they were on their way home and stopped somewhere but the individuals were not suspect for reporting them stolen. If it were a pistol in a case in a backpack then the shopping center would never know.
I have even heard of a story where 3 men were bothering a guy at the bar so the guy left. The guys then followed him to his car and were threatening him. He took out a pistol from the car, loaded it, and shot three of them as they were going to beat him up or something. As I understand it the man was not charged with anything, not even illegal transport of the firearm.
While it could certainly be argued that visiting a friend's house constitutes a "soujourn" given the general definition of the word, you really need to examine how the courts construe the definition to be sure. "Sojourn" does not appear to be defined in Chapter 134 of the Hawaii Revised Statutes. A "sojourn" is commonly referred to as a place of temporary stay but may otherwise be legally construed as a place of temporary residence such as when someone stays in a hotel or goes camping.
If you are interested in how our Hawaii courts have used the term "sojourn", take a look at the published opinion in State v. Martins, 106 Haw. 62, 101 P.3d 671 (Haw. App. 2004). In Martin, Martin was convicted of, among other things, violating the law concerning the place to keep a firearm. In Martin, the Hawaii Intermediate Court of Appeals (ICA) affirmed the lower court's decision of conviction against Martin. In its review of the trial court's decision, the ICA reviewed excerpts from the prosecutor closing arguments in which he stated:
Now the law also states, and you are instructed, it is lawful to carry unloaded firearms. Again, this was loaded. But it has to be in an enclosed container, has to be unloaded and in an enclosed container, and only listing specific areas, business, residence, or sojourn. You know sojourn, of course, is defined. Residence, pretty obvious.
The car is typically how you transport it. It is not legal to live in a car, therefore, a car cannot be a residence. Obviously not a place of business. These are establishments. These are structures.
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Place of sojourn, as I indicated, means a place, temporary—to live temporarily, as on a visit.
Say you are going over to Lana‘i and you are sport shooting and you stay at the Manele Bay Hotel. Your room is your place of sojourn, so you keep your shotgun in your room. That is legal. That makes sense. It is not a car. It cannot be a car because it is against the law to live in a car.
While the prosecutor's closing argument is by no means the equivalent of an ICA or the trial court holding, it provides us with some insight as to how the court may construe the word, "sojourn". It should be noted that neither the trial court nor the ICA disagreed with the prosecutor's statements and that there were no statements from either court that the Prosecutor's statements were erroneous, improper or contradicted by law. Also, the Hawaii Supreme Court ultimately overturned a portion of the ICA decision and remanded the case back to the trial court but did so on other grounds.
One way of interpreting Martin is that LE and the courts will probably construe a place of sojourn as a place where one intends to or actually does temporarily reside (i.e. live there) instead of someplace where you temporarily visit as in a 7 Eleven or the Mai Tai Bar.
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Going shopping I am not sure that would apply. If you left it in your car while you shopped on your way home from the range than I don't think it is an issue. I have seen instances where firearms were stollen from cars while they were on their way home and stopped somewhere but the individuals were not suspect for reporting them stolen. If it were a pistol in a case in a backpack then the shopping center would never know.
This is an issue. Shopping centers are not on the list of approved destinations, for that matter neither is a fast food drive-thru. The law does not allow you to make any quick stops between approved destinations, this was made very clear in my handgun class. Don't chance it.
Here is an instance where firearms were stolen from a vehicle at the mall resulting in the owner's arrest for place to keep.
http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/Car-break-in-at-shopping-center-leads-to-firearms/GPyOQmMjTkGpkWDFbU2a4A.cspx (http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/Car-break-in-at-shopping-center-leads-to-firearms/GPyOQmMjTkGpkWDFbU2a4A.cspx)
It was discussed in this thread
http://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=2914 (http://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=2914)
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While it could certainly be argued that visiting a friend's house constitutes a "soujourn" given the general definition of the word, you really need to examine how the courts construe the definition to be sure. "Sojourn" does not appear to be defined in Chapter 134 of the Hawaii Revised Statutes. A "sojourn" is commonly referred to as a place of temporary stay but may otherwise be legally construed as a place of temporary residence such as when someone stays in a hotel or goes camping.
If you are interested in how our Hawaii courts have used the term "sojourn", take a look at the published opinion in State v. Martins, 106 Haw. 62, 101 P.3d 671 (Haw. App. 2004). In Martin, Martin was convicted of, among other things, violating the law concerning the place to keep a firearm. In Martin, the Hawaii Intermediate Court of Appeals (ICA) affirmed the lower court's decision of conviction against Martin. In its review of the trial court's decision, the ICA reviewed excerpts from the prosecutor closing arguments in which he stated:
Now the law also states, and you are instructed, it is lawful to carry unloaded firearms. Again, this was loaded. But it has to be in an enclosed container, has to be unloaded and in an enclosed container, and only listing specific areas, business, residence, or sojourn. You know sojourn, of course, is defined. Residence, pretty obvious.
The car is typically how you transport it. It is not legal to live in a car, therefore, a car cannot be a residence. Obviously not a place of business. These are establishments. These are structures.
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Place of sojourn, as I indicated, means a place, temporary—to live temporarily, as on a visit.
Say you are going over to Lana‘i and you are sport shooting and you stay at the Manele Bay Hotel. Your room is your place of sojourn, so you keep your shotgun in your room. That is legal. That makes sense. It is not a car. It cannot be a car because it is against the law to live in a car.
While the prosecutor's closing argument is by no means the ICA or the trial court's holding, it should be noted that neither the trial court nor the ICA disagreed with the prosecutor's statements nor were there any indications that the Prosecutor's statements were erroneous, improper or contradicted by law. The Hawaii Supreme Court ultimately overturned a portion of the ICA decision but did so on other grounds.
One way of interpreting Martin, is that LE and the courts probably construe a place of sojourn as a place where one intends to or actually does temporarily reside (i.e. live there) instead of someplace where you temporarily visit as in a 7 Eleven or the Mai Tai Bar.
Thanks for the case referrence.
I would agree that going to a bar with a firearm locked in the car is not a place of sojourn and is not a good idea either. One might not necessarily face prosecution but still not a great idea.
I have noticed that a number of things in the firearms section are kind of vague. I noticed that shotguns, for example, are not defined (unless it is in some other chapter). Sojourn is another problem term as it is not defined, leaving a gray area that has the potential to both hurt the public and help the public. I don't know the reason for some of the vagueness. The scary part is that sometimes you may never get a real answer until someone is charged with a related crime and the court actually gives a set definition.
I would take the side that if the law were not clearly defined then one cannot be convicted of breaking the law. So in this case, idealistically, I think the prosecutors should not proceed with criminal charges in a situation where a place may reasonably be considered a sojourn since the legislature failed to further define the word.
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Thanks for the case referrence.
I would agree that going to a bar with a firearm locked in the car is not a place of sojourn and is not a good idea either. One might not necessarily face prosecution but still not a great idea.
I think some of us would take umbrage with your statement that a bar is not a place of sojourn. :rofl:
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I would take the side that if the law were not clearly defined then one cannot be convicted of breaking the law. So in this case, idealistically, I think the prosecutors should not proceed with criminal charges in a situation where a place may reasonably be considered a sojourn since the legislature failed to further define the word.
Why would you want to risk playing in the gray area of the law? Anything left open to interpretation could land you in jail, not a risk I'm willing to take. Especially if the risk is a potential felony which could result in big brother taking away all your guns.
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Bump for old but good info.
Search function works. I'm considering switching to my motorcycle for the main mode of transportation for long hauls... gas being $4.50 at the moment... and was wondering about getting the shotty to the range down in Hilo on it. That's one of my longer, regular treks and 45 mpg is (way) better than 30.
Still going to see about a case that doesn't scream "I'm a gun!"
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guitar case?
they even make gun cases shaped like guitars
the utg covert bag posted the other day from amazon was cheap and doesn't scream "GUN!"
Bump for old but good info.
Search function works. I'm considering switching to my motorcycle for the main mode of transportation for long hauls... gas being $4.50 at the moment... and was wondering about getting the shotty to the range down in Hilo on it. That's one of my longer, regular treks and 45 mpg is (way) better than 30.
Still going to see about a case that doesn't scream "I'm a gun!"
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I did see that go by and that's what got me thinking about it. Still looks like a gun case to me. Or at least not easy to recognize as something else specific.
I had thought of making a PVC tube case with screw caps and painting it like a mailer tube. Meets the "rigidly constructed receptacle" and "completely enclosed" requirements. Looks more natural on a motorcycle than a soft case and protects the firearm better from rain.
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Bump for old but good info.
Search function works. I'm considering switching to my motorcycle for the main mode of transportation for long hauls... gas being $4.50 at the moment... and was wondering about getting the shotty to the range down in Hilo on it. That's one of my longer, regular treks and 45 mpg is (way) better than 30.
Still going to see about a case that doesn't scream "I'm a gun!"
What kind of shotgun? I've taken my Mossberg 500 to the range on my moped with the shotgun in a large backpack after removing the barrel and stock. Don't lose the screws and bring tools!
For handguns, I put them in soft cases and stuff them also in the backpack. I think it'd be a good idea to put the shotgun in at least a gun sock though. I didn't do it back then, but would definitely do it if I had to get to the range without a car again.
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Yup, 590 SP.
I thought about that. I have a couple Marlins that I was also thinking of transporting to the Glenwood range via the bike and they are all about the same size as the 590. One tube would work for all (one at time). Just as easy to pull the stock off the Marlins, though, and I think I have a backpack big enough to hold them with just the shoulder stock removed. Hmmm.... good call. Thanks.
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