2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: reloadme on June 06, 2014, 02:04:20 PM
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Does anyone know, when Kaiser Permanente stopped giving medical clearance for Firearm Permits.
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:wtf:
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I have Kaiser medical and applied for two handgun and one long gun permits this past May 16th and picked up my permits on the 30th with no problems at all. When did you apply?
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Unless I'm mistaken, those clearance letters are only required for firearm permit applicants who were ordered to receive counseling for things like DUI, illegal drug abuse, etc.
See this fabulous chart: https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=222.msg770#msg770
6. If you were convicted of a DUI, you need to bring in a substance abuse assessment from District Court Drivers License Education. (IF counseling was ordered, a medical clearance is also required.)
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were you rejected and given that letter?
I have kaiser also and have had no problems at all.
I've seen that letter over a year ago, but it was never given to me.
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No DUI or Drug Abuse that qI know of, acquired firearm aprrox 1 month ago.
Put in a call to my Kaiser doctor to explain. ???
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No DUI or Drug Abuse that qI know of, acquired firearm aprrox 1 month ago.
Put in a call to my Kaiser doctor to explain. ???
:popcorn:
Your teen years must have been one biig party! :rofl:
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No DUI or Drug Abuse that qI know of, acquired firearm aprrox 1 month ago.
Put in a call to my Kaiser doctor to explain. ???
so you got the firearm?
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If there is no negative reponse from the HMO the PD will release the paperwork. If the HMO sends back the paper to HPD with some info then you in trouble
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Only had one handgun permit since getting Kaiser, and one yearly rifle permit to buy, and not a peep.
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Spoke to my Kaiser physician, all be taken care of!! :-*
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Does anyone know, when Kaiser Permanente stopped giving medical clearance for Firearm Permits.
This notice was sent out about 2 years ago...the "clearance" they mention is if someone gets denied a permit to acquire. The irony in them denying plan coverage from the required "clearance" is that there is a good chance that the denial originated from Kaiser in the first place. So, on one hand, Kaiser doesn't have a problem saying you can't own a gun for some reason, and on the other hand say their doctors don't feel comfortable in saying you should be able to....
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if you are in kaiser and use their wi-fi, it blocks you from anything gun oriented
blocks anything with weapons.
Obama lovers. >:(
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Aloha!
I am also a Kaiser subscriber and also currently facing this same dilemma. I just started buying/collecting approx. 8 or 9 firearms(hand gun, strip AR lowers,etc.) over the course of 2 yrs.and more recently bought a revolver this past Mar./April 2014. Not a peep like another member mention. On 02June 2014 I went in to do the required paper work as usual for a couple of other firearms, seemed like the normal M.O., maybe another form was added though? Pickup date for the permit set for the 18th to the 24th.
Then it all began on Tue., the 9th., I get a call from the firearms division,. I was informed that the Kaiser letter head they received would deny me from acquiring the permits. He said the statement was a blanket general statement saying "yes, patient has been treated" or some thing like that. I was totally taken back by that and stated I have never had a history, nor been diagnosed or treated for any of the 5 five symptoms mentioned. It was mentioned that a lot of other Kaiser subscribers are facing the same problem. The Kaiser letter head is written with no specifics or details, just yes been treated. So, for liability purposes, understandably can't proceed. He said they had a form/guideline to which I needed to get from them for the medical clearance and suggested that perhaps might be best to go to an outside doctor and pay out of pocket to get the clearance. I needed to deliver my copy to them by the coming up Fri.(13th) and also the dr. needs to fax a copy by the same. If not, I would have to start the application process all over again, once cleared.
So, I take 4hrs. emergency leave from work @ 1230 and leave Kaneohe. Luckily, parking was not too much of a hassle. I get the form and could'nt help but feel like I was targeted by some anti-gun advocate and at the same time couldn't help but laugh because the paper says the medical clearance has to state that I " no longer" have these substance abuse, mental health defects, issues. I was told, from now on I would have to get this clearance every time I apply for a handgun permit/ once a year for long arms permit.
Now, off to Kaiser Ko'olau to figure this mess out and clear my name/ record of the false info. Spent approx. 1 hour there, to which they produced the same above unsigned Kaiser statement. I mentioned that the medical clearance at HPD is Kaiser's own form and that the requested information is not about approving or allowing the subscriber to acquire or own firearms, but rather the inquiry is about whether or not if the subscriber has been treated or is being treated for one of the following(substance abuse, addiction, mental disorders, etc. that would prevent them from acquiring a firearm. At this same time I also request a copy of all my medical records and asked for my Dr. to make a formal statement to clear my name/records that I have never had a history or been treated for anything . I made a call back to HPD and the same officer gave me the name of the Doctor who wrote and signed the letter head" Benjamin Tamura, MD Assoc. Director" Now this got me alarmed because, for one, I never met this man, he is not by my primary physician as I had put down/required on the form, nor been treated by him in any way. The receptionist helping me inquired to whom this physician was and gave me the following: Dr. Benjamin Tamura of the Bariatric Dept., Moanalua(weight loss). Receptionist said she also, set up a telephone appt. w/ my Dr.- she will call (have yet to receive)
Arrive at home, get a call back from Kaiser Ko'olau, said they went through all my records and found nothing in my internal medicine records. However, have to check behavior health dept. and check with them, since they could not view/open those records? Called behavior health and explain my situation, but nothing popped up at all.
So, I thought the next step would be to use the contact info given to me for Dr. Tamura's Bariatric Dept. Figure, he could pin point what he went by to making his decision. Receptionist said she had forward my info for calling me back. Have not received a courtesy call as of yet and franklin I don't think he will ever.
Fri. the 13th could not make the dead line to procure a clearance, so I called Al (Ready on the Right) that there will a delay until this issue is resolved. Next step will probably be to make an appointment w/ my Dr. to just specify that none of these conditions ever exited. Then perhaps to contact the Kaiser Legal Dept. and request a prompt reply to what is going on and why is this doctor that I never met or made contact with, nor is my primary physician made a false and adversed statement about my medical well being/ medical records. will post the HPD medical clearance guideline for viewing, when time permits. until then aloha! ....renny
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That's a shame.
Making a note not to sign up with Kaiser medical health insurance ever.
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this really sucks.
I hope you get this worked out.
I hope its not just a simple over sight and miscommunication between Kaiser docs and form senders.
with a big company like this, i would not doubt its some mistaken identitiy or simple slip of the numbers on your kaiser member number.
let us know when you get to bottom of this.
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What would happen if you didn't fill in the portion of the form where it asks for doctor information? If I recall correctly, you don't have to have a doctor. In that case, how would they even know to contact Kaiser?
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What would happen if you didn't fill in the portion of the form where it asks for doctor information? If I recall correctly, you don't have to have a doctor. In that case, how would they even know to contact Kaiser?
I have left it blank N/A for years.
welcome to Obamacare
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To: renny10n
Went through the same process with Kaiser!
Spoke to my personal physician, he stands by the policy in fear of losing his job.
Also my doctor, "off the record" could not confirm any of the 3 conditions for denial.
Currently seeking legal advise! :wtf:
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My husband has hit the same problem with Kaiser. No records at all. No documentation in his chart that this letter was even sent. The info sent to HPD is vague...but Kaiser states that a medical clearance to acquire firearms is not a covered benefit under my health plan so he can't go to anyone within Kaiser to obtain the clearance. His PCP states that there is nothing in his file that should raise a flag. It's VERY frustrating to go through this process.
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I will make an appt. with my Dr. this week. From what I understand as I have been told, all the Firearms Div. is concerned with is if ever having a history, treatment of any of the 5 listed conditions( would prevent someone from processing a firearm. I plan to present it this way to my dr., to write the statement, stating that there is nothing in my medical records to indicate that I have ever been diagnosed, treated or in treatment for any substance abuse, drug addiction, dependence, mental disease,,disorder or defect .<PERIOD!
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Is it a good idea to call KHON2 Action Line will investigate this whole mess up with Kaiser?
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Here is the (02) Kaiser forms I received (1st is the same as posted earlier) & the (01) I received from HPD
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Is it a good idea to call KHON2 Action Line will investigate this whole mess up with Kaiser?
that might be good idea?
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Has anyone with Kaiser applied for a permit in the past couple of weeks and not have this problem? Asking because I also have Kaiser and I don't want to run into the same problem.
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To: renny10n
Went through the same process with Kaiser!
Spoke to my personal physician, he stands by the policy in fear of losing his job.
Also my doctor, "off the record" could not confirm any of the 3 conditions for denial.
Currently seeking legal advise! :wtf:
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Reload, what happened, did your physician have a change of heart?
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IANAL but is this something that has merits for a class action lawsuit?
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Has anyone with Kaiser applied for a permit in the past couple of weeks and not have this problem? Asking because I also have Kaiser and I don't want to run into the same problem.
I did apply for a handgun permit the last week of May & no issues or questions asked when I told them I had Kaiser. Went to pick up my permit day after Kamehameha Day hoping it wasn't gonna be denied cause I seen this thread on here & again no problems when I picked it up.
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IANAL but is this something that has merits for a class action lawsuit?
I was thinking the same thing. Whether intentional or not, if the effect of their rule creates a catch 22 and places an undue burden on you (finding and paying for a doctor to clear you) when exercising your 2nd amendment rights, I see that as a Constitutional violation.
If you were never treated for something that requires you to get a clearance letter, yet you are being told you need one, that's a catch 22. How can you be cleared if you never had the treatment? I think you should be able to go to HPD, tell then you have done nothing to require a clearance letter, and if they think you need one, ask them to show you the specific information they used to make that determination. At that point, you'll know who in the process is causing the problem. If a letter, call or visit doesn't correct the process, then a lawsuit might.
You have to show you were injured (2nd amendment violation), who caused it (need that from HPD saying specifically why you were denied), and what steps you took to notify the organizations of the mistake.
They can't create a covert series of information passing, and then refuse to let you in on who did what to cause your denial. That in and of itself would smack of a plan to backdoor the system and deny new gun purchases to qualified purchasers.
Just me thinking out loud... :wave:
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What would happen if you didn't fill in the portion of the form where it asks for doctor information? If I recall correctly, you don't have to have a doctor. In that case, how would they even know to contact Kaiser?
If you fail to disclose that you have a healthcare provider you could be prosecuted for a felony.
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If you fail to disclose that you have a healthcare provider you could be prosecuted for a felony.
Good to know. However, you can have a healthcare provider and not have a doctor. I had an HMSA PPO plan for years where I didn't have a primary doctor. I'm assuming in those cases leaving it blank would be within the law? I guess it's different for Kaiser, they automatically assign you someone right?
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My husband has hit the same problem with Kaiser. No records at all. No documentation in his chart that this letter was even sent. The info sent to HPD is vague...but Kaiser states that a medical clearance to acquire firearms is not a covered benefit under my health plan so he can't go to anyone within Kaiser to obtain the clearance. His PCP states that there is nothing in his file that should raise a flag. It's VERY frustrating to go through this process.
I would fire my PCP and tell them that I don't have one, which, would be 100% truth. I wonder what requirements HIPPA has in forcing disclosure of your doctor.
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I would fire my PCP and tell them that I don't have one, which, would be 100% truth. I wonder what requirements HIPPA has in forcing disclosure of your doctor.
That might work if you were not part of an HMO...since they ask if you have a private MD or if you are part of an HMO (they usually ask if you are a Kaiser or Straub patient) it might be dicey, especially if you deny you have Kaiser....
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Our PCP is actually helping us - it's not her fault - it's the policy of the physicians of Kaiser and their legal department who chose to take this stance. Kaiser has decided NOT to respond to HPD to firearms requests in the past. From what I've heard, HPD has called Kaiser on this and they (Kaiser) are now responding to firearm permit requests. The form letter that is being sent is not included in his chart so there's no way that we can obtain a copy of it. The release of information goes to medical records - not your individual PCP.
I would fire my PCP and tell them that I don't have one, which, would be 100% truth. I wonder what requirements HIPPA has in forcing disclosure of your doctor.
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Our PCP is actually helping us - it's not her fault - it's the policy of the physicians of Kaiser and their legal department who chose to take this stance. Kaiser has decided NOT to respond to HPD to firearms requests in the past. From what I've heard, HPD has called Kaiser on this and they (Kaiser) are now responding to firearm permit requests. The form letter that is being sent is not included in his chart so there's no way that we can obtain a copy of it. The release of information goes to medical records - not your individual PCP.
A non-response from a doctor is not treated as an indication you have a disqualifying condition or that the doctor has some reason to believe that you should not be able to own a gun. My physician has never replied to any of their requests for information and there have never been any adverse repercussions.
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Well, I have today off, ( Fri., 20 June 2014) Today, would have been my permit pick up day, I had scheduled after the first initial HPD visit. Would have cancelled taking off today. However thought to take advantage and try to make progress in resolving this mess. !st: called Kaiser to make an appt. w/ my Dr.- she is off today, will be back on Monday. 2nd: called Firearms Division to see if I could get a copy(s) of the Kaiser Letterhead w/ Dr. Tamura's signature, Kaiser's own medical release form, etc. before contacting the Kaiser Legal Dept. -cannot get a copy of the Letterhead, because apparently it's not an individual form per subscriber/member. It is inclusive w/ other Kaiser members names/info on it. I was told that Kaiser should be able to provided a copy. HPD can provide one of the Kaiser's own clearance forms- just pick up at window. What does not sit well w/me is that the "Medical Clearance Letter" MUST CONTAIN the exact wording as on the form provided by HPD:
Letter must state "(individual's name) shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition and has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addition, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect"
the HPD officer said, that has to be included, because it is in the law, However, the Dr. can make a statement under that. That, there is no history or medical record of ever having being diagnosed, or treated, or in treatment for any of the above conditions, which would preclude me from acquiring a firearm.
Called Kaiser Legal dept.- recept. took contact info. At approx.10:48am Kaiser Legal Dept.(Michelle) returns call. Don't know her position there(atty?), except she made sure I was CLEAR on the who, what, why & where! After explaining to her the situation. She said to call Dr. Tamura, because the legal dept. can not do anything. They only, in this case represent the doctor(Dr. Tamura) and not the member.
On June 10th, I did call Dr. Tamura's office and left my contact info w/the receptionist there. She said it was forwarded to him to call me back. However, I have yet to hear from him. After that initial attempt to contact Dr. Tamura on, 10 June 2014 , I was advised/suggested to not make any contact w/ this Dr. at all, since I have never met or been treated by him, nor is he my PCP. Have to decide my next move!
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Obamacare and the Surgeon General has just taken your rights to aquire firearms through medical a clearance
good job ! :thumbsup:
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Well, I have today off, ( Fri., 20 June 2014) Today, would have been my permit pick up day, I had scheduled after the first initial HPD visit. Would have cancelled taking off today. However thought to take advantage and try to make progress in resolving this mess. !st: called Kaiser to make an appt. w/ my Dr.- she is off today, will be back on Monday. 2nd: called Firearms Division to see if I could get a copy(s) of the Kaiser Letterhead w/ Dr. Tamura's signature, Kaiser's own medical release form, etc. before contacting the Kaiser Legal Dept. -cannot get a copy of the Letterhead, because apparently it's not an individual form per subscriber/member. It is inclusive w/ other Kaiser members names/info on it. I was told that Kaiser should be able to provided a copy. HPD can provide one of the Kaiser's own clearance forms- just pick up at window. What does not sit well w/me is that the "Medical Clearance Letter" MUST CONTAIN the exact wording as on the form provided by HPD:
Letter must state "(individual's name) shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition and has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addition, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect"
the HPD officer said, that has to be included, because it is in the law, However, the Dr. can make a statement under that. That, there is no history or medical record of ever having being diagnosed, or treated, or in treatment for any of the above conditions, which would preclude me from acquiring a firearm.
Called Kaiser Legal dept.- recept. took contact info. At approx.10:48am Kaiser Legal Dept.(Michelle) returns call. Don't know her position there(atty?), except she made sure I was CLEAR on the who, what, why & where! After explaining to her the situation. She said to call Dr. Tamura, because the legal dept. can not do anything. They only, in this case represent the doctor(Dr. Tamura) and not the member.
On June 10th, I did call Dr. Tamura's office and left my contact info w/the receptionist there. She said it was forwarded to him to call me back. However, I have yet to hear from him. After that initial attempt to contact Dr. Tamura on, 10 June 2014 , I was advised/suggested to not make any contact w/ this Dr. at all, since I have never met or been treated by him, nor is he my PCP. Have to decide my next move!
The one thing I didn't see documented is the information HPD possesses that required them to request a clearance letter from Kaiser in the first place. As I said before, this is a catch 22. How can Kaiser clear you from never having been treated?
If HPD is the office denying you, and they say they need a clearance letter, they must have some info that tells them they need that from the HMO. I'd go back and ask them that. If they can't answer, then it is their mistake, and I would then ask for a supervisor.
HPD can't deny a permit unless they have a reason. Find out what their supposed reason is.
If the info is an error in the HPD records, you should try to get that resolved. Asking you to prove you no longer need treatment you never needed is totally ridiculous!
This is like being asked, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" You can't answer YES or NO without it being bad for you!
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the letter that kaiser sent can be accessed by anyone that works at kaiser
it is my belief that the firearms form is sent to kaiser
and then the letter was mistakenly sent out denying you from the permit, with a doctors sig that you never saw
now kaiser doesn't want to own up to their mistake bc nobody really knows exactly what happened
it is a huge company, and miscommunications happen all the time. I see this daily.
it just sucks that these people have to suffer for kaiser's bone head mistake.
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/23/ga8ajy3e.jpg)
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the letter that kaiser sent can be accessed by anyone that works at kaiser
it is my belief that the firearms form is sent to kaiser
and then the letter was mistakenly sent out denying you from the permit, with a doctors sig that you never saw
now kaiser doesn't want to own up to their mistake bc nobody really knows exactly what happened
it is a huge company, and miscommunications happen all the time. I see this daily.
it just sucks that these people have to suffer for kaiser's bone head mistake.
If you don't have a history of a disqualifying condition, this may well be the reason said disqualifying condition letter was sent; it was a mistake and now, once this had been set in motion, it is near impossible to correct. Hawaii law provides qualified immunity to providers that may render an opinion without "malice" but seems to offer no such protection to the organization employing those physicians. You might consider approaching the Risk Management Department and enlisting their help. In the course of discussing your case with them, you might mention that the organization has no qualified immunity under current Hawaii law and that one might argue that said organization, being unwilling to address an obvious mistake that prevented the exercise of a core, fundamental Constitutional right might be viewed as acting under "color of authority" which in turn could expose the organization to civil liabilities. It might be a stretch, but it might help....
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Good to know. However, you can have a healthcare provider and not have a doctor. I had an HMSA PPO plan for years where I didn't have a primary doctor. I'm assuming in those cases leaving it blank would be within the law? I guess it's different for Kaiser, they automatically assign you someone right?
Not exactly. You could have a healthcare PLAN/insurance and not have a healthcare provider (Doctor, NP, etc.)....If you have a PPO and have not been assigned a provider, leaving the space blank would seem to be appropriate.
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This is currently affecting my friend as well. What he is concerned about is that HPD is no longer waiting for the KP rejection letter. Once they see you are with KP they call you back and request your doctor fills out the extra form.
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Now we have privately owned entities denying 2a rights for no basis?
Slippery slope for KP and us. I would sue Kealoha and KP for this.
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I have kaiser registered a handgun a few weeks ago, no problem.
Same as always.
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I too have been thrown into this process with Kaiser versus HPD on an application to acquire a handgun.
As the original post and others have posted, I have had no problem with renewing and acquiring through out this year.
I renewed my long gun permit in August - no problem.
I applied and acquired a handgun in September - no problem.
On Monday, November 24, 2014, filled out the forms at HPD to get a permit to acquire a handgun (from a private owner).
On Tuesday at 6AM, I received a call from the Firearms Section of HPD telling me that I needed another form to have filled out by Kaiser.
I picked up the form and dropped it off for my doctor to sign.
My doctor called me back that same day and told me that he doesn't do this, that Kaiser has a policy not to "approve" firearms purchases.
On Wednesday, November 26, I went to Kaiser and spoke to Daisy at Kaiser Administration, Honolulu Clinic. She told me she didn't know why but that recently it came to here attention that this is Kaiser's policy because she had received a similar contact from another Kaiser member. She said she will have a "PCE or PCS", a physician I guess, who will contact me about this issue.
I then went to HPD to explain that I was having problems with Kaiser and its "new" policy. They, the officers at the Firearms window told me that they were aware of this issue with Kaiser and nicely referred me to Harvey Gerwig, President of the HRA, who happened to be there to see an administrator about the issue of medical clearance.
I received the same documents of others as posted already and was given the same "solution"; that is to pay for my own psychologist or doctor to view my records from Kaiser and then sign off as HPD is requesting.
What the letter from HPD's request to the doctor assumes is that the subject has been identified as someone who has been diagnosed as had/has some mental defect or treatment for addiction. Hence the language that the subject is no longer affected by mental defect of addiction.
The most egregious statement on the letter is that the doctor is "approving" me to acquire and own a firearm and ammunition. That right there is a legal problem - my doctor doesn't make an approval, he/she can disqualifies me.
But no one will tell me what the problem is exactly. No one has told me that it was for this or that condition.
I have been advised that if I don't follow the suggestion to get an independent evaluation and let the permit process play out, I will be rejected after 20 days and then HPD will have to state in a letter why I was rejected. I believe that a doctor will NOT disqualify me but they will have to right a letter to the positive, which I think is wrong.
However this letter from HPD may be so vague as to say that the medical clearance was not received (for what?).
Perhaps the issue on the confusing communications may be from the HIPPA Act …
What I found interesting in my talking with HPD is that they send a letter to Kaiser for medical clearance. If they don't receive a reply within the allotted time frame (the first 14 days) they will issue the permit. So NO reply is not problem.
So in my case something happened because HPD called me in less than 24 hours after I applied. Since they are not doing it blanket for all Kaiser members, then the possibility is that there has been some correspondence from Kaiser from my last application that has somehow triggered this problem. Harvey Gerwig alluded to this because HPD is so far behind in it's paper work and perhaps Kaiser is too.
Harvey Gerwig told me that there are known issues standing between Kaiser, HPD and the Hawaii State's Attorney General. He told me that even the letter that is sent to Kaiser in the first place he has issues with. He believes that HPD wants to resolve the issue as it is starting to make there process more and more difficult.
I find it very unsettling that I have to retain a another doctor to sign a letter that I think Kaiser should be required to sign off on.
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I smell a lawsuit against Kaiser.
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For some clarity on what the law sez:
§134-7 Ownership or possession prohibited, when; penalty.
(a) No person who is a fugitive from justice or is a person prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition under federal law shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(b) No person who is under indictment for, or has waived indictment for, or has been bound over to the circuit court for, or has been convicted in this State or elsewhere of having committed a felony, or any crime of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(c) No person who:
(1) Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411;
(3) Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes; shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor, unless the person has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect.
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For some clarity on what the law sez:
§134-7 Ownership or possession prohibited, when; penalty.
(a) No person who is a fugitive from justice or is a person prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition under federal law shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(b) No person who is under indictment for, or has waived indictment for, or has been bound over to the circuit court for, or has been convicted in this State or elsewhere of having committed a felony, or any crime of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(c) No person who:
(1) Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411;
(3) Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes; shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor, unless the person has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect.
I don't expect a detailed answer, but is there anything in your contact with Kaiser ever that might have included mental health services? Counseling for any emotional situations, stress at work, sex addiction?
I mean, what you may have confided in your doctor could be as non-violent and insignificant as, "I'm not sleeping well. This divorce is really eating at me. Can I get a prescription for a sleep aid?" Most sleep aids, as an example, are extremely easy to abuse and develop addictions to. Not that you are addicted, but I can see someone wanting to be overly cautious knowing you might still be taking the sleep meds.
Being a Kaiser customer, I worry that if we don't identify what caused these triggers to make HPD place yet another hurdle in your patht, it could happen to anyone. If it's something easy to avoid, it would be helpful to give others a heads up.
Interestingly, my daughter and I both received letters from our primary care physicians at Kaiser a couple days apart informing us they are planning to retire at the end of December.
That's a big coincidence, and with both choosing to retire just prior to the first of 2015, it makes me wonder if this isn't related to Obamacare somehow.
Anyway, without posting details, a simple yes or no if there was anything that's changed since the Summer which might be a factor with HPD would be helpful. If not, then we could all be susceptible!
:shaka:
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It looks like my issue has been resolved as far as Kaiser Permanente is concerned.
Today I spoke to Lisa Teves from Kaiser Permanente and she told me why HPD is requesting that I get a clearance for a handgun permit.
Se said that in August of 2013, Kaiser sent a letter to HPD disqualifying me from getting a permit to acquire. She then told me that letter was in sent in error.
However since no one contacted them for the August 2013 letter, they didn't do anything.
She said that one of the assistants in the office responsible for the review misinterpreted the information on my record as a disqualification.
They had a meeting about this with the whole office and discussed what the correct interpretation is for Kaiser to disqualify an applicant. She said they made sure that whomever is looking at the medical records to verify with a supervisor before sending the letter for disqualification to HPD.
The issue was that I had seen a specialist for my diabetes management who is in the behavioral department. The admin person saw that and did not question what the visit to that department was for.
That erroneous letter was sent in August of 2013!
Lisa checked my records and saw that I was correctly checked 4 times for disqualification since August of 2013 in the application process; even with my latest application on November 24th Kaiser sent a letter to HPD stating there was no disqualification for me to acquire a firearm.
She did not know directly about my problem with this application until I complained to the Admin last week. She reviewed my information and contacted Officer Mau at the Firearms Section to clear this up. She questioned why they were using an old disqualification letter when subsequent approvals had been received. She said she did not get an answer from Officer Mau on this point. She told HPD Firearms that she is sending another letter to them stating that this letter from August 2013 is a mistake and that my record is clean of any disqualifying information.
So the bottom line is that Kaiser made a mistake and is now making good on it. Lisa said she is sending me a copy of the letter they sent to HPD to clarify that the disqualification in August of 2013 was a mistake.
I asked about the process since my doctor says he doesn't make these approvals and she said that Kaiser responds to ALL requests from HPD on firearms clearances. My doctor is not involved with this, only a small group is responsible for this function. She said it is rare that they disqualify someone.
She apologized for the error. I thanked her for following thru on this.
So this week I will go pick up my permit to acquire a 1911 pistol. :shaka:
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Awesome news and it is a shame you had to go through this. Thank you for sharing your experience with us here on 2a.
This is a shining example of how lightly we have to tread to keep our rights when decisions are left to only a handful of beurocrats, especially when they may have an alternative agenda. It is too easy to be violated. Thank you! :thumbsup: :shaka:
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It looks like my issue has been resolved as far as Kaiser Permanente is concerned.
Today I spoke to Lisa Teves from Kaiser Permanente and she told me why HPD is requesting that I get a clearance for a handgun permit.
Se said that in August of 2013, Kaiser sent a letter to HPD disqualifying me from getting a permit to acquire. She then told me that letter was in sent in error.
However since no one contacted them for the August 2013 letter, they didn't do anything.
She said that one of the assistants in the office responsible for the review misinterpreted the information on my record as a disqualification.
They had a meeting about this with the whole office and discussed what the correct interpretation is for Kaiser to disqualify an applicant. She said they made sure that whomever is looking at the medical records to verify with a supervisor before sending the letter for disqualification to HPD.
The issue was that I had seen a specialist for my diabetes management who is in the behavioral department. The admin person saw that and did not question what the visit to that department was for.
That erroneous letter was sent in August of 2013!
Lisa checked my records and saw that I was correctly checked 4 times for disqualification since August of 2013 in the application process; even with my latest application on November 24th Kaiser sent a letter to HPD stating there was no disqualification for me to acquire a firearm.
She did not know directly about my problem with this application until I complained to the Admin last week. She reviewed my information and contacted Officer Mau at the Firearms Section to clear this up. She questioned why they were using an old disqualification letter when subsequent approvals had been received. She said she did not get an answer from Officer Mau on this point. She told HPD Firearms that she is sending another letter to them stating that this letter from August 2013 is a mistake and that my record is clean of any disqualifying information.
So the bottom line is that Kaiser made a mistake and is now making good on it. Lisa said she is sending me a copy of the letter they sent to HPD to clarify that the disqualification in August of 2013 was a mistake.
I asked about the process since my doctor says he doesn't make these approvals and she said that Kaiser responds to ALL requests from HPD on firearms clearances. My doctor is not involved with this, only a small group is responsible for this function. She said it is rare that they disqualify someone.
She apologized for the error. I thanked her for following thru on this.
So this week I will go pick up my permit to acquire a 1911 pistol. :shaka:
Good news Bullit!!! Gonna start using my C&R to fill up the safe.
Sad to hear about Pete, though. :( :( :(
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What I don't like about this is that the way the law is presented, it further makes vets NOT want to seek treatment.
I have lots of friends that are suffering that won't seek help, simply because they know they will get a letter of ineligibility to possess firearms from either the state or the VA.
In a way, this state makes Vets conditions worse.
Yep. Without assurances that you won't lose your rights summarily by simply seeking counseling, people who just need to work some things out, but are nowhere near dangerous, will avoid the treatment. That in itself could lead to a bad outcome due to lack of treatment.
No one should lose their rights without due process, starting with an evaluation by a trained and experienced professional.
Maybe this policy is a tacit admission that the treatment (Rx) is often worse than the disease? We all suspect these recent mass shooters were on some types of psychiatrist-prescribed meds. That might be a logical place to start flagging people of higher risk.
If the side-effects of these drugs include a desire to hurt yourself or others, taking guns away would be prudent ... but so would taking them off that particular prescription!! Guns are not the only way to act out on medication-induced psychoses.
No easy answers, so people opt for what is easy -- erring on the side of caution.
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I guess you heard about NY State taking away guns from 278 citizens for medical reasons, eh?
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Kaiser is creating a paper trail to cover their own ass, in their own mind,
at the expense and inconvenience of its members
and those members not being informed of whats going on
great job, kaiser.
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A story with similar circumstances to this situation ...
Military Vet Sought Treatment for ‘Insomnia’ — Days Later, NY Police Officers Were Knocking on His Door: Lawsuit
U.S. Navy veteran and retired police officer Donald Montgomery is suing New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and other officials
after his firearms were reportedly confiscated by police after he sought treatment for insomnia.
It all started after Montgomery visited his primary care physician on May 6 and complained about trouble sleeping, the Daily Caller
reported. He claimed to have been suffering from insomnia since moving from a different state. Montgomery then returned
to the hospital again days later for the same problems, except this time he was diagnosed with “Depression; Insomnia” by
hospital staff.
On May 23, Montgomery returned to the hospital yet again with the same symptoms. He reportedly stayed at the hospital for 48 hours
voluntarily for treatment.
In the lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court for the Western District of New York earlier this month, Montgomery alleges that his visit was
wrongly recorded as an involuntary stay.
Montgomery claims in his lawsuit that officials violated his constitutional rights during the ordeal. He also accuses the hospital of violating
his privacy by giving his medical records to state police.
Montgomery is seeking monetary damages, legal fees, and the “striking down and rendering void” of New York’s “Mental Hygiene Law”
on grounds that it represents an “unconstitutional violation of the Second, Fourth, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/01/02/military-vet-sought-treatment-for-insomnia-days-later-ny-police-officers-were-knocking-on-his-door-lawsuit/ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/01/02/military-vet-sought-treatment-for-insomnia-days-later-ny-police-officers-were-knocking-on-his-door-lawsuit/)