2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Reloading => Topic started by: oldfart on July 17, 2014, 06:18:07 AM
-
The Gold Dot Project –Part 2 -Testing some ammo
I knew that the factory spec was 1150fps from a 4” test bbl.
So I expected to get around 1100 from my little gun, a SW3913
with a 3.5 inch stock bbl.
I measured 5 rounds as follows, 1063/1068/1068/1058/1097.
Av=1070 SD=15
So my goal is to get about 1070fps with the Xtreme 124 PHP
Propellant choice:
Alliant suggests 5.8 unique with the speer GD bullet for 1180
Previous tests showed promise with Winchester Super Field
Hogdon suggests 4.8 HP38/231
Alliant also suggests 4.4 Bullseye
Loading:
For this first test, I decided to try 5.4gr of WSF (Super field)
I seated the Xtreme bullets to 1.12” just like the GD ammo
Taper crimped to .375”
I had some Federal Gold Medal Match Primers.
Cases were FC and WIN
Initial Test Results:
Sim test 1 was using WIN cases. I got 1093fps with SD of 17
Sim test 2 was using FC cases. I got 1093fps with SD of 17 also
Point of impact:
The simulated GD ammo hit slightly lower than factory.
Not too bad though. Testing was done off the bench at 25 yds. Point of aim was the bottom of the black circle.
See the pics…
Summary of test results for 7/16/14:
I was pretty close to hitting the goal.
Velocity was 2% over factory so if I cut back to 5.3 WSF then that should get really close to factory speed.
Drawing from previous chronograph data, here are a few other good bets for making your own Gold Dot simulator:
4.9 HP38
4.9 WW231
4.4 Bullseye
5.4 Unique
5.9 Herco
7.4 AA7
Cost Breakdown:
If you do the math, the cost of making your own simulator is something around $7.50 per box of 50.
Unfortunately, as of 7/16/14 the supply of handgun powder in this state is zero as far as I know. However if you are serious about being proficient with your self defense pistol, I strongly recommend making your own simulator ammo and practicing a lot. Even if it means burning up some of your precious powder supply.
Good luck to all you reloaders out there.
-
aloha OF
excuse the newbie question, but is the objective the same velocity, recoil, or POA/POI as GDHP or all three?
mahalo
-
aloha OF
excuse the newbie question, but is the objective the same velocity, recoil, or POA/POI as GDHP or all three?
mahalo
===========
All three, ideally.
That's pretty hard to accomplish, but we're close.
For the most part, velocity and recoil will go hand in hand. There are exceptions.
Point of impact is hard to duplicate because I see where the shell casings can affect the point of impact.
So if you grab a bunch of mixed shells and reload, you will definitely get a bigger shot group.
At normal close encounter range, it won't make much difference. The test targets were shot at 25 yards which is the outer limits for a compact 9mm.
The idea is to inspire confidence with your defense pistol by producing ECONOMICAL AMMO that LOOKS and FEELS like the real thing.
Then you will be more inclined to practice and thus become proficient at manipulating your chosen tool if the day ever comes when you "meet the elephant".
Which brings another thought to my head. A lot of people in this forum suggest weird compact pistols for self defense.
Do these people ever ACTUALLY SHOOT these things? And if they do, have they shot them ENOUGH to be proficient at handling them in an emergency?
-
Thanks man
Excellent info, as usual
-
The xtreme bullets are on sale...free shipping this week till 7.27
That would make these 124 gr hollow points about 86.00 per m landed.
-
Thanks for the notification on the sale, OF
I bought Montana golds over the 4th of July weekend
Paid about $13 per thousand more than the sale price
:(
-
Thanks for the notification on the sale, OF
I bought Montana golds over the 4th of July weekend
Paid about $13 per thousand more than the sale price
:(
...
Montana gold are premium bullets. I love them. They are better than most. But I don't drive a lexus. :geekdanc:
But seriously, if mg made a bullet similar to the gold dot, I would have bought those instead.
But their 124 hp is not the right profile...not even close.
So in this particular application the cheap bullets are better. Too bad powders for this load is hard to find now.
I heard sec had some pistol powder in... Then sold out in 2 hours.
-
Awesome project! Thank you very much for sharing!
-
...
Montana gold are premium bullets. I love them. They are better than most. But I don't drive a lexus. :geekdanc:
But seriously, if mg made a bullet similar to the gold dot, I would have bought those instead.
But their 124 hp is not the right profile...not even close.
So in this particular application the cheap bullets are better. Too bad powders for this load is hard to find now.
I heard sec had some pistol powder in... Then sold out in 2 hours.
i was at SEC and we were discussing GDHP and HPD
they said HPD switched from 147 gr to 124 gr
do you know when they did this and why?
i am assuming for higher velocity
-
i was at SEC and we were discussing GDHP and HPD
they said HPD switched from 147 gr to 124 gr
do you know when they did this and why?
i am assuming for higher velocity
.
...
I would think the guys at security would know when and why the change occurred.
Personally, I don't think it matters much what they use.
FYI. Back when they switched to 9mm around 1991 or so, I did the same project. I simulated the 147 gr winchester q load.
Back then, I could buy the SAME 147 bullet that Winchester used...in bulk...by the case.
-
This is a bump to update a few things.
1. I'll be posting some numbers with cfe pistol soon. Initial tests look real good.
2. Unfortunately the price of the bullets even with free shipping is about $9 more...95 per m.
-
Thank you OF. If and went I start doing 9mm this thread will be a GREAT help, saving time and money! You DA BEST! :thumbsup: :shaka: :thumbsup: :shaka:
-
i found these online. interesting stuff about those factory ammo.
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-9mm-115gr-speer-gold-dot-jhp/120/
-
when scrolled at the middle, you will find the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. as Oldfart is simulating
-
when scrolled at the middle, you will find the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. as Oldfart is simulating
==============
If you are really sharp you will notice that Mr. Shadow found 6 gr. of flat ball powder.
I did not want to muddle the issue but since it presents itself, here we go....
When dissecting Speer GD rounds, I had some ammo from different lots.
The lot that I test fired had about 5.3 gr. of flat ball.
A round from a different lot contained 6.2 gr of flat ball.
Wassup with dat???
If you do enough reading on ammunition manufacturing, you will find out that large manufacturers don't usually use canister grade powder.
They receive a lot (as in one batch) of powder and adjust their machines to achieve the desired effect. So you can pick up a box of GD today and compare it with a box from years ago and it will shoot the same way.
They probably have much different powder inside, but they still shoot the same. That is what really matters isn't it?
So then why did I only present the 5.3 gr load? Because if you dive further back in this forum, I did the XTP project which was simulating Hornady XTP 124 gr factory ammo.
Guess how much much powder was in that ammo? ....5.5 grains of flat flakes, possibly flat ball..
Therefore I wanted to pursue a handload that produced the correct velocity with a powder charge in the 5.4 gr range.
FYI here is a 60x photo of the flat powder that was in the Hornady xtp ammo. See attachment.
Does any of this really matter? No. not really. All that matters is that we get a similar shape/weight bullet and throw it downrange at the same speed as whatever the factory ammo does.
-
...
Montana gold are premium bullets. I love them. They are better than most. But I don't drive a lexus. :geekdanc:
But seriously, if mg made a bullet similar to the gold dot, I would have bought those instead.
But their 124 hp is not the right profile...not even close.
Are not MG HP bullets manufactured for target/competition shooting, whereas Speer GD HP bullets are for self defense application?
Also, the GD bullets are more than twice the cost of the MG bullets? If you have a source for the GD where it costs less than the MG, please let us know.
-
Are not MG HP bullets manufactured for target/competition shooting, whereas Speer GD HP bullets are for self defense application?
Also, the GD bullets are more than twice the cost of the MG bullets? If you have a source for the GD where it costs less than the MG, please let us know.
wirecounter
oldfart is saying that his equivalent "head" to GDHP is the extreme, and these are cheaper than MG
he is testing 124 gr extreme and trying to come up with a practice equivalent to the factory speer GDHP
-
wirecounter
oldfart is saying that his equivalent "head" to GDHP is the extreme, and these are cheaper than MG
he is testing 124 gr extreme and trying to come up with a practice equivalent to the factory speer GDHP
...
Thanks for explaining the idea. In a perfect world, we mortals would be able to practice with the real thing.
Alas, such is not the case.
The best I can hope for is an affordable round with similar profile, weight, and speed.
Point of impact can vary with shell casings, but at close range it's not so bad.
-
Are not MG HP bullets manufactured for target/competition shooting, whereas Speer GD HP bullets are for self defense application?
Also, the GD bullets are more than twice the cost of the MG bullets? If you have a source for the GD where it costs less than the MG, please let us know.
if you want gold dots to reload wideners has them, actually the price seems comparable to MG per 100, and it can perform as a SD round if needed, whereas MG is not a good SD round.... they don't expand properly.
https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=2038&dir= (https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=2038&dir=)
-
However, using your reloads in a SD situation is a bad idea, so I've been told. In an emergency different story...
-
However, using your reloads in a SD situation is a bad idea, so I've been told. In an emergency different story...
...
Yeah, reloads for self defense is a bad idea.
It's a legal thing.
Btw, I used to order plenty from wideners in my past life. I loved their country style.
-
wirecounter
oldfart is saying that his equivalent "head" to GDHP is the extreme, and these are cheaper than MG
he is testing 124 gr extreme and trying to come up with a practice equivalent to the factory speer GDHP
Got it.
-
GDHP have been in use, I believe, with LAPD for a long time. In an ITTS class uncle scotty informed us that they went to GDHP's due to it being a bonded jacket for barrier and windshield penetration. Also, he preferred 45 then 9mm. I assume HPD went to a GDHP due to it being bonded as well.
-
24 hrs sale @ extreme bullet 38 125 hp
-
24 hrs sale @ extreme bullet 38 125 hp
...
You could post this under deals and sales.
Somebody might be interested in doing some 38 spec +p loads or light 357 mag loads.
It looks like they are trying to push 1 item per day. 7pm to 7pm is the adjusted time of the sales.
-
:stopjack:
...
Since CFE Pistol is the only handgun powder I could find locally, I bought some and tested it for the purpose of this project.
As it turns out, it works quite nicely:
4.8 too slow
5.1 too slow
5.5 too high
On my next trip, I'll run 5.4 which should be perfect.
It's worth noting that at 5.5gr., I fired a 5-shot test group at 25 yds that had 4 shots in a 1.25 in. cluster but spoiled by 1 flier.
So that indicates a fine potential for accuracy.
Point of impact was approximately the same.
In conclusion, cfe and xtreme 124hp works well in simulating the gdhp for every day practice.
At current prices, it comes out to $8.25/per box of 50.... Not too bad eh?
-
Final update
Went to the range today.
I loaded a batch of 124 xtreme php with 5.4 cfe, fed gm100, fc cases
Recall that the desired velocity is1070 fps from my test gun 3913.
The load checked in at 1065 with sd of 9.
Accuracy at 25 yards was excellent, except for that 1 flyer.
Estimated cost at current market is $8.50 per 50 rounds.
Actual gold dot 124 ammo runs about $1 per round, so this is great practice ammo.
See the pic.
-
Great info, I've wanted to try the xtreme 124 gr HPs. I found my extreme 124 gr hpcb to run good at 5.1-5.2 gr CFE-P at 1.18 coal with cci small pistol primers. I don't have a chronograph , but maybe I should try work up the load a bit.
-
Great info, I've wanted to try the xtreme 124 gr HPs. I found my extreme 124 gr hpcb to run good at 5.1-5.2 gr CFE-P at 1.18 coal with cci small pistol primers. I don't have a chronograph , but maybe I should try work up the load a bit.
============
If you are just loading practice ammo then you don't need a chrono. Just diddle with the powder charge until you can bench a fairly tight group.
If you loading for combat competition, then you might need to use a chrono to make sure your loads make minimum power factor. But if you go too low then the ammo might fail to drop a steel popper target.
If you loading for bullseye competition, then you are shooting the wrong gun. :D
-
============
If you are just loading practice ammo then you don't need a chrono. Just diddle with the powder charge until you can bench a fairly tight group.
If you loading for combat competition, then you might need to use a chrono to make sure your loads make minimum power factor. But if you go too low then the ammo might fail to drop a steel popper target.
If you loading for bullseye competition, then you are shooting the wrong gun. :D
Haha it will be awhile before I jump onto the 1911 bandwagon. Maybe when I can start affording 45s
-
Haha it will be awhile before I jump onto the 1911 bandwagon. Maybe when I can start affording 45s
...
I'm just messin' with ya.
But seriously,
In retrospect, if I was starting out all over again I would not buy a 1911.
I would choose a glock 45 auto with aftermarket bbl.
Or a spring.xd. 45 auto.
-
...
I'm just messin' with ya.
But seriously,
In retrospect, if I was starting out all over again I would not buy a 1911.
I would choose a glock 45 auto with aftermarket bbl.
Or a spring.xd. 45 auto.
I'll keep that in mind for the future.
-
Update 6.17.15
Here are some speed numbers using my new glock 17.
Speer 124 jhp gold dots. Av. 1113 fps sd=18
Xtreme 124 php simulator 5.4 cfe pistol. Av. 1124 sd=7
So my recipe for the gold dot simulator still stands as a viable realistic practice round for defensive shooting.
The only disturbing thing I noticed is that this block17 does not seem as accurate as fanboys say it is.
But that is different topic altogether. See the pic.
-
I'll go to the range with you and let me try my G17 to shoot some of your rounds in.....I'm real accurate. And if not I can use your ammo ;D
-
I'll go to the range with you and let me try my G17 to shoot some of your rounds in.....I'm real accurate. And if not I can use your ammo ;D
...
Tell me what is real accurate in your gun. Factory ammo? Reloads?
What is your typical group size at 25 yds from a benchrest?
Running a stock bbl?
Keep in mind this ammo was not tuned for accuracy, it is tuned to simulate the look and feel of hpd service ammo.
I have been wondering about stock glock accuracy for a long time.
-
O.F. I'm going to start loading some GDHP for practice similar to what I believe you're doing and use factory GDHP 124 gr. for the real thing. But my main goal is to test HPs with Glock single stack mags for function with similar recoiling rounds and for best accuracy.
I only have AA # 7 and Autocomp for pistol since that's what was available and plan on using Lee 4 die set with Pro Autodisk on a 550B.
Powder load data for AA # 7 only has a 1 grain window and less than 1 gr. for Autocomp. What kind of powder measure are you using? I'm thinking need to either trickle charge and weigh each charge especially for the AA #7 which is very fine and likes to find leak paths. How are you dropping powder and what increments do you use? Still learning so questions may seem lolo.
-
O.F. I'm going to start loading some GDHP for practice similar to what I believe you're doing and use factory GDHP 124 gr. for the real thing. But my main goal is to test HPs with Glock single stack mags for function with similar recoiling rounds and for best accuracy.
I only have AA # 7 and Autocomp for pistol since that's what was available and plan on using Lee 4 die set with Pro Autodisk on a 550B.
Powder load data for AA # 7 only has a 1 grain window and less than 1 gr. for Autocomp. What kind of powder measure are you using? I'm thinking need to either trickle charge and weigh each charge especially for the AA #7 which is very fine and likes to find leak paths. How are you dropping powder and what increments do you use? Still learning so questions may seem lolo.
..
Mic808 told me about his struggles with the lee powder measures. I have one that I was going to try out, but have not got around to it yet.
Anyway, I use dillon loading presses with the dillon measures.
I know aa7 is pretty fine grain. How about that autocomp powder? Bigger granules? I never tried it.
Re. Increments...from previous experience with manufacturer supplied load data, I tend to start on the high side because their data is usually pretty conservative.
To get a good copycat load, you have to clock the factory ammo from your gun to establish a reference. Then I would do 2 load tests.
One just over minimum and one just under max.
When you clock those 2 loads it will be pretty easy to dial in your copycat load.
Some tips...
Sort your brass
Lube the shell before sizing
Drop 5 to 10 charges into the pan and take the average
Go easy on the lee factory crimp die. I prefer a taper crimp myself.
If you don't have chrono, I can run tests.
-
i have that problem when i first reload my ammo using ramshot trueblue bc of the tiny small ball powder. but after i tried hodgdon clays and bullseye. it meters well on my Lee powder measure using Load Master.
-
O.F. mahalo for the increment info and tips. Autocomp is bigger than AA #7 but never tried to meter in Pro disk. Will try both and if leaks I will use the Dillon powder measure and die. Was just lazy in cleaning out different powders and cheap Charlie in buying a 2nd Dillon since I got the Lee.
You lube every case even using carbide dies? I wasn't sure of the amount of crimp but will lighten up just to remove the bell. I don't have a chrono for pistol use and appreciate your help in testing my loads.
Mic808 you had powder leaks with the Lee? Do you have the Pro or Auto disk measure and do you use the charge bar or disks? I also have 1 lb. of True blue unopened so mahalo for the tip. I would get Bullseye or similar powder if available but seems to be out. Since I got the AA #7, will use it up and look out for larger ball powder.
I will let you guys know how the Autocomp works in the Lee Pro. BTW just saw that Bing has good pics of some different powders when you search for Hodgdon, Accurate etc. powders.
Thanks for your help and replies.
-
i have the pro auto on my load master. with the disk. try and ask around to trade your trueblue for some similar powder flake like BE.
-
i have the pro auto on my load master. with the disk. try and ask around to trade your trueblue for some similar powder flake like BE.
Mahalo.
-
O.F. mahalo for the increment info and tips. Autocomp is bigger than AA #7 but never tried to meter in Pro disk. Will try both and if leaks I will use the Dillon powder measure and die. Was just lazy in cleaning out different powders and cheap Charlie in buying a 2nd Dillon since I got the Lee.
You lube every case even using carbide dies? I wasn't sure of the amount of crimp but will lighten up just to remove the bell. I don't have a chrono for pistol use and appreciate your help in testing my loads.
Mic808 you had powder leaks with the Lee? Do you have the Pro or Auto disk measure and do you use the charge bar or disks? I also have 1 lb. of True blue unopened so mahalo for the tip. I would get Bullseye or similar powder if available but seems to be out. Since I got the AA #7, will use it up and look out for larger ball powder.
I will let you guys know how the Autocomp works in the Lee Pro. BTW just saw that Bing has good pics of some different powders when you search for Hodgdon, Accurate etc. powders.
Thanks for your help and replies.
..
Re. Lube, crimp, powder...
Yes, I lube all my pistol brass just prior to loading. It reduces the stress on the brass, press, and your body.
Crimp till the case mouth is around 0.374 inch typical. Factory ammo is bigger, but they also use a sealer to hold the bullet that you can't see unless you pull the bullet.
If I were a betting man, I would put my money on autocomp to achieve the desired effect.
-
Roger that, thanks O.F.
-
..
Re. Lube, crimp, powder...
Yes, I lube all my pistol brass just prior to loading. It reduces the stress on the brass, press, and your body.
Crimp till the case mouth is around 0.374 inch typical. Factory ammo is bigger, but they also use a sealer to hold the bullet that you can't see unless you pull the bullet.
If I were a betting man, I would put my money on autocomp to achieve the desired effect.
================
Update 9/8/15
Mr "whynow" gave me some loads he created and the clear winner was autocomp powder.
In fact it seemed to be exactly what one would desire in a simulator load. Perfect speed and low deviation.
Power factor was 139 from my standard G17 so it would be great for competition use too.
-
================
Update 9/8/15
Mr "whynow" gave me some loads he created and the clear winner was autocomp powder.
In fact it seemed to be exactly what one would desire in a simulator load. Perfect speed and low deviation.
Power factor was 139 from my standard G17 so it would be great for competition use too.
aloha OF
did you ever get to continue the 147 gr project?
what was the load for the autocomp?
mahalo
-
aloha OF
did you ever get to continue the 147 gr project?
what was the load for the autocomp?
mahalo
...
Sorry, i can't chrono the carbine on the pistol range and the thought of hauling the stuff over to the rifle side was not appealing to me.
I have to dedicate one day just for rifle shooting. Then we shall see just how subsonic those rounds really are. I have a feeling one of those is going super from a long bbl.
-
O.F. , mahalo for your time and effort and the great info.
-
...
Sorry, i can't chrono the carbine on the pistol range and the thought of hauling the stuff over to the rifle side was not appealing to me.
I have to dedicate one day just for rifle shooting. Then we shall see just how subsonic those rounds really are. I have a feeling one of those is going super from a long bbl.
i wonder if DL allows you to chrono some load on HDF open shoot day for your 147 gr load project.
-
what was the load for the autocomp?
mahalo
Mac, I know you addressed O.F. and hope you guys don't mind me butting in, but the load with Autocomp was 5.2 - 5.4 gr. Used RP and Speer brass with CCI SPP and 124 GDHP bullets.
Bought the powder at Roy's Fishing a while back.
-
Mac, I know you addressed O.F. and hope you guys don't mind me butting in, but the load with Autocomp was 5.2 - 5.4 gr. Used RP and Speer brass with CCI SPP and 124 GDHP bullets.
Bought the powder at Roy's Fishing a while back.
...
That's fine. We did have a pm chat about your test loads yesterday.
-
Updated info...
When I first started this thread, I only had 1 old box of speer gd factory ammo.
Since then, macsak let me use a newer lot of factory ammo for testing.
It tested about 3% faster at 1148 from my g17.
Therefore, I might revise my cfe pistol load to 5.5 gr. Which is max load on the hogdon website.
Theoretically, that would bring it up to about 1145, which is more in line with the newer lot of factory ammo.
At this point, we're really splitting hairs.
...
Btw the factory spec is 1150 so we're really close.
-
has anyone tried using the Montana Gold 124 gr jacketed hollow points?
it seems that it's way cheaper by the case, but i have to really ask myself if i can justify shelling out $360.
http://montanagoldbullet.com/index.php/cases/9mm-124gr-jhp.html
-
has anyone tried using the Montana Gold 124 gr jacketed hollow points?
it seems that it's way cheaper by the case, but i have to really ask myself if i can justify shelling out $360.
http://montanagoldbullet.com/index.php/cases/9mm-124gr-jhp.html
I use Montana Gold Bullets almost exclusively for target practice and plinking with handguns. And I shoot the 124gr JHP's. I get very good accuracy from them and as you pointed out they are inexpensive especially when purchased in larger quantities.
But I do not use them for self defense as they are not designed to expand when they hit something.
-
I use Montana Gold Bullets almost exclusively for target practice and plinking with handguns. And I shoot the 124gr JHP's. I get very good accuracy from them and as you pointed out they are inexpensive especially when purchased in larger quantities.
same here
see if you can find someone to split the case with you
measure by weight or volume to figure out the split
-
But I do not use them for self defense as they are not designed to expand when they hit something.
interesting, i did not know that
so they are just using the design because it is better ballistically, and not for expansion?
-
interesting, i did not know that
so they are just using the design because it is better ballistically, and not for expansion?
They also punch a cleaner hole than FMJ.
-
same here
see if you can find someone to split the case with you
measure by weight or volume to figure out the split
If you have to split a case you don't shoot enough! :rofl:
-
has anyone tried using the Montana Gold 124 gr jacketed hollow points?
it seems that it's way cheaper by the case, but i have to really ask myself if i can justify shelling out $360.
http://montanagoldbullet.com/index.php/cases/9mm-124gr-jhp.html
...
I have used mg bullets and they are excellent. They are superior to xtreme bullets in most applications.
In their current design, it looks like they extended the nose, similar to hornady xtp. Hard to tell by the picture tho...
If I was a hardcore race gun competitor mg would be my choice of bullet.
....
However in this case where the goal is to simulate hpd issue ammo, xtreme 124 hp is better because:
1- the nose profile is more similar to gold dots and
2- the cost is significantly less. About 25% less. That appeals to the pake side.
...
Re. Self defense use...stick with factory ammo. Period.
-
interesting, i did not know that
so they are just using the design because it is better ballistically, and not for expansion?
------------------------------
My thought...
Apparently a hollow cavity shifts the balance point slightly which is supposed to make it more accurate.
---
When MG designed their hollow point, I don't think they had terminal ballistic performance as a primary goal.
I just remembered that I found a MG loaded round at the range, so I dissected it.
See the comparison between MG and Hornady XTP which was designed from the ground up for "Extreme Terminal Performance"
Note the difference in depth of the cavity.
HAP= hornady action pistol
XTP=hornady extreme terminal performance
MG=montana gold