2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bcspy on July 25, 2014, 02:37:34 PM
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Hear alot of talk about the ban of Russian Imported AK-47 or Saiga 12 through various site. Check gunbroker and price is going up. Is it now to buy or hold off? I got an approval from my loving wife to get one, just need more information. What should be the average price to look for?
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There are so many models and variants out there that there is no one average price. The choice to by or now or not is up to you. There are AK pattern rifles from many countries that are not affected by the ban, but as the Russian supply dries up it is only logical presume that it will cause the price of non Russian guns to rise as the demand rises.
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Russian AK's are nice, but...
Don't go rush out and overpay for a Russian one.
In all honesty, the Russian ones are good but definitely not the best AK's available.
Let someone else overpay for a Russian and pick up an excellent Bulgarian or Chinese one.
If you're new to AK's, the relatively inexpensive Romanian ones are better than ever.
If you don't mind a proprietary AK, the "N-pap & O-pap" A k's are very inexpensive too.
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Looking for a 7.62x39. I would rather buy a great AK. Buy once, cry once. I agree if the Russian Ak drys up, the other Ak will goes up in price. I was looking at K-Var, Legionusa and Red Jacket. Price is higher than normal.
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I'm agree with KK. Get a good Bulgarian or Chinese. I believe Bulgarians are easier to come by than Chinese. I have an Arsenal that is primarily Bulgarian and it's great.
Romanians can be had cheaper, but you will (or may) find QC issues, like canted front sights and stuff like that. I think WASRs are back to pre-2012 pricing.
If you can find them for what you can afford, I'd highly recommend going with an Arsenal. Stamped will likely be slightly (or even a lot) cheaper.
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Not sure if I read the ban correct. What would happen to the Saiga 12 and vspr 12 ? Isn't it part of the ban.
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With all this talk about the EO put out last week or so, I have been looking at AKs as well. I don't have the slightest clue as to the latest news and what not. But I did run into various gun channels on Youtube actually praising the latest attempt by the US made C39 from Century Arms. For the price can't really go wrong at less than $700. About the only thing holding me back from pulling the trigger on this deal is I'm still researching what is available as far as aftermarket parts go. I have narrowed down the front hand guard and pistol grip. The stock on the other hand, I have no clue what actually will fit.
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Not sure if I read the ban correct. What would happen to the Saiga 12 and vspr 12 ? Isn't it part of the ban.
The ban is only on the importation of the aforementioned firearms.
It has nothing to do with current inventory.
There's not a ban on ownership.
There's enough inventory to keep everyone happy, except for the fact that people will start hoarding and flipping them for double their value.
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I like my Polish Model 1960!
:geekdanc:
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a cheap chinese AK?
All chinese firearms and parts were banned from importation since the 90s.
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When it comes to the 7.62x39, how come no one mentions the American made Ruger mini 30? AK's are ok but the connotation and association with that firearm to every enemy we've faced, including all the extremist wishing death to America kind of turns me off to owning one
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When it comes to the 7.62x39, how come no one mentions the American made Ruger mini 30? AK's are ok but the connotation and association with that firearm to every enemy we've faced, including all the extremist wishing death to America kind of turns me off to owning one
Style.
AK's are iconic. Mini 30 is not.
Besides, it's not the gun's fault.
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When it comes to the 7.62x39, how come no one mentions the American made Ruger mini 30? AK's are ok but the connotation and association with that firearm to every enemy we've faced, including all the extremist wishing death to America kind of turns me off to owning one
Maybe no one mentioned the Mini 30 because the OP had stated that he would like an AK pattern rifle.
But if you look here http://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=15250 I recommend both the Mini 30 and the CZ 527 to another gentleman.
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When it comes to the 7.62x39, how come no one mentions the American made Ruger mini 30? AK's are ok but the connotation and association with that firearm to every enemy we've faced, including all the extremist wishing death to America kind of turns me off to owning one
Because the title of the post is "educate me about the AK-47"
Not "educate me about rifles that shoot the 7.62x39 cartridge"
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With all this talk about the EO put out last week or so, I have been looking at AKs as well. I don't have the slightest clue as to the latest news and what not. But I did run into various gun channels on Youtube actually praising the latest attempt by the US made C39 from Century Arms. For the price can't really go wrong at less than $700. About the only thing holding me back from pulling the trigger on this deal is I'm still researching what is available as far as aftermarket parts go. I have narrowed down the front hand guard and pistol grip. The stock on the other hand, I have no clue what actually will fit.
Has anyone tried the Century Arms C39 yet?
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I agree that if you can get a Russian model without paying an inflated price due to recent ban on importation, I would go for it if you are in the market. However as stated there are other models that are as good or even better. I like my Russian, but I also have an excellent Chinese and Yugo variant. Bulgarian makes are excellent also. As for pricing in general, Russians are going for more obviously and in some areas there is a slight bump in pricing in general, but I think that is just a reaction. In general the firearms market has settled down since a year ago so I would not be looking to pay inflated pricing.
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If you want a saiga go check out Honolulu firearms.
They recently posted they have inventory at reasonable prices. $700 I think is what they posted on here.
Ogc also posted they have inventory in their thread.
Good luck with any rifle you choose.
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Has anyone tried the Century Arms C39 yet?
Yes.
Great gun.
The one I have works flawlessly.
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Saiga 12 or Vepr 12?
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Saiga 12 or Vepr 12?
So you want an AK shotgun then?
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If the price is right. I will perhaps get both. Buy once, cry once.
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Saiga 12 or Vepr 12?
Just get the VEPR 12, you won't regret it.
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I've got 3 converted Saiga rifles and a shotgun that I like, but would be more then willing to trade or sell for other commie block (or American) AKs for whatever favorable terms the Russian ban will bring. In other words, except for mystique Russian AK's = nothing special. I think even Kalashnikov himself said Bulgarians built the best AK's.
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Ever thought of getting a Polytech
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Ever thought of getting a Polytech
Who, me? Sure
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Kinda late but this was a MUST for true AK enthusiasts and a hell of a deal a few weeks ago, even if you don't like the caliber. Of course now these are selling on GB for inflated prices (see second link $2K) and they will continue to go up.
http://www.royaltigerimports.com/product-p/vepr0002.htm (http://www.royaltigerimports.com/product-p/vepr0002.htm)
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=431393905 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=431393905)
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Who, me? Sure
Hahaha yeah and also the OP
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Ever thought of getting a Polytech
I don't think anyone would ever fault anyone for owning a Polytech...they are an excellent quality AK. Here is one of my pre-ban Polytech P47 Legend series for reference, with ZERO American parts.
NIB Poly Technologies (POLYTECH) AK-47S Legend, manufactured at Shenzhen State Arsenal (316) and imported by Keng’s Imports in 12-1988, sold to PTK International Inc. (Polytech’s Subsidiary) on 3/17/1989, and resold shortly after for domestic sale.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Polytech%20AK-47S%20Legend/3_zps1e84fd20.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Polytech%20AK-47S%20Legend/3_zps1e84fd20.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Polytech%20AK-47S%20Legend/16_zpsee9ee0b6.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Polytech%20AK-47S%20Legend/16_zpsee9ee0b6.jpg.html)
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I don't think anyone would ever fault anyone for owning a Polytech...they are an excellent quality AK. Here is one of my pre-ban Polytech P47 Legend series for reference, with ZERO American parts.
Show off :worship:
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Kinda late but this was a MUST for true AK enthusiasts and a hell of a deal a few weeks ago, even if you don't like the caliber. Of course now these are selling on GB for inflated prices (see second link $2K) and they will continue to go up.
http://www.royaltigerimports.com/product-p/vepr0002.htm (http://www.royaltigerimports.com/product-p/vepr0002.htm)
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=431393905 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=431393905)
I'm a bit skeptical that Russian AK's will maintain a massive premium over non-Russian in the long run. They certainly won't come down to pre-ban prices, but at the end of the day you can still buy perfectly good (if not better) AK's, that still have cool Cold War heritage (Bulgaria, Romania, Yugoslavia, etc). Right now things have gone crazy, but that'll lead to more non-Russian AKs being imported, which will bring prices down (elastic supply response to demand, economics 101).
Look at this way.. Joe Shooter wants to own an AK so he can blast cheap ammo at the range.. why would he pay $2k for a Russian one when he can get a functional equivalent for $1k? I can see paying double digit percentage premiums (e.g. $1300 vs $1000 for a 'cool factor'), but $3k? $4k? It's going to cap out at some point.
The other thing is - there are a ton of these things out there. I don't know current numbers but back in 2012, 30% of Izhevsk's AK's were going to the US. That's more than 20,000 rifles/year and firearms are most definitely durable goods. For the average shooter.. how many AKs do they really need or want? Nothing wrong with collecting firearms, but unless you're a serious AK enthusiast, once you have 1 or 2 that's probably it.
Or I'm totally full of shit and they'll spiral up in price. It's like predicting stocks, nobody really knows. Nothing wrong with paying a premium for it to be Russian but I wouldn't go wallet-crazy.
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I'm a bit skeptical that Russian AK's will maintain a massive premium over non-Russian in the long run. They certainly won't come down to pre-ban prices, but at the end of the day you can still buy perfectly good (if not better) AK's, that still have cool Cold War heritage (Bulgaria, Romania, Yugoslavia, etc). Right now things have gone crazy, but that'll lead to more non-Russian AKs being imported, which will bring prices down (elastic supply response to demand, economics 101). Vintage Russian AK-47s (Type 1 [1947-1949], Type 2 [1949-1953/54], Type 3 [1953/54-1959]) or true AKMs (1959-1977) are very high in demand and aren’t cheap when they do surface…they were never imported as complete rifles. True AK enthusiasts will spend literally years to obtain all the correct factory parts in the correct time period for that specific rifle. I’m not referring to all the modern stuff (post 1977). A vintage Russian AK/AKM with the correct factory parts with all the original proofs and time period correct will always be high in demand and will only increase in value over time without any doubt. Pics below of Russian Type 1, 2, and 3 AK-47s.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/VEPR%201V/1229368065_o_zps1bb2eba2.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/VEPR%201V/1229368065_o_zps1bb2eba2.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/VEPR%201V/1229368315_o_zps0d0ba6e4.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/VEPR%201V/1229368315_o_zps0d0ba6e4.jpg.html)
Look at this way.. Joe Shooter wants to own an AK so he can blast cheap ammo at the range.. why would he pay $2k for a Russian one when he can get a functional equivalent for $1k? I can see paying double digit percentage premiums (e.g. $1300 vs $1000 for a 'cool factor'), but $3k? $4k? It's going to cap out at some point. Joe shooter who just wants a reliable, run of the mill AK would do just as you said. This type of individual is not an AK enthusiast or collector. Nothing wrong with that but there is a very distinct difference and completely different market for a true AK enthusiast and/or collector.
The other thing is - there are a ton of these things out there. I don't know current numbers but back in 2012, 30% of Izhevsk's AK's were going to the US. That's more than 20,000 rifles/year and firearms are most definitely durable goods. For the average shooter.. how many AKs do they really need or want? Nothing wrong with collecting firearms, but unless you're a serious AK enthusiast, once you have 1 or 2 that's probably it. I certainly wouldn't say there is a ton of this particular VEPR IV referenced in the link out there. I will quote arguably the most knowledgeable AK expert in the U.S., and when he stated this the price was $995.00. “Can you really find another rifle on the market that packs this much Soviet-style factory-built goodness to waste your hard-earned money on? I frankly doubt it. We used to spend almost this much just for an RPK74M stockset and hardware, in fact I spent almost $3K on the last RPK-74M I built. This being basically a Soviet RPK-74M built by the factory on an original factory receiver, with those cool deep spot welds and tons of Soviet style proofs in all the right locations.” BTW this statement was prior to Obama’s EO banning these rifles.
Or I'm totally full of shit and they'll spiral up in price. It's like predicting stocks, nobody really knows. Nothing wrong with paying a premium for it to be Russian but I wouldn't go wallet-crazy.
Just as FYI…VEPR IV owned by a true AK enthusiast. Again the difference between a true AK enthusiast and just Joe Shooter just wanting a run of the mill AK.
Fitted with 5.45 mag and Kashtan scope.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_1_zps3d0def86.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_1_zps3d0def86.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_2_zpsf60610b0.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_2_zpsf60610b0.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_3_zpse9058de6.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_3_zpse9058de6.jpg.html)
Added the correct rear sight leaf.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_41_zpsd3bc1237.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_41_zpsd3bc1237.jpg.html)
Military stock with silver proofs and textured finish.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_6_zps5ae6204a.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_6_zps5ae6204a.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_10_zps00ecb2fc.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_10_zps00ecb2fc.jpg.html)
This is the correct version of 1P78 mount for an RPK-74M type rifle (it's the same as used on the 1P78-2 RPK-74M sight) and provides essentially the same head and eye relief spacing as an 1P29, but slightly shorter and a lot more advanced. 2.8x magnification with a tritium-illuminated 700m rangefinding choke-type reticle calibrated in 5.45mm. It works fine with 5.56 for the sub-300 yard ranges i'll be shooting at, and truly makes an awesome squad auto optic.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_8_zps857f2b4a.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_8_zps857f2b4a.jpg.html)
Late pattern drop case looks good with these black rifles, and according to the Soviet manuals this pattern of case was designed to be used with the folders. They also work great for any fixed stock RPK, too.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_9_zps9ca56fdc.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_9_zps9ca56fdc.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_7_zps78c21ab9.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/VEPR%201V/2013rpk203_7_zps78c21ab9.jpg.html)
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Great guns you got there.
Collectors of contemporary AKs likely are the worst off with these sanctions. Even among collectors though, there is price-sensitivity.
Ironically, if cheap foreign 7.62 & 5.45 was banned, that would likely bring prices of weapons down since I imagine many people would start to sell them off or stop buying them up as much.
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Though I don't own an AK but enjoy shooting them (even the crappy ones) it's more than the Kali's and Saiga's themsleves.
If I may quote sitk,
"an executive order issued on the same date July 16 bans importation of Izmash and Saiga products Dept Treasury Ukraine - related Sanctions 13662 Exec Order list
This starts a serious domino effect and can easily lead to more restrictions Obamas-latest-executive-order-slapping-russia-with-sanctions NRA-ILA-import-of-kalashnikov-concern-saiga-aks-banned-by-executive-order
All of this was already brought up years ago as a warning on my website, advising potential buyers to not go too far into Saiga shotguns/rifles and inevitable projects.
Now, original mags and spare parts (many of which were already tough to find) may progress to scalping prices and when complying with Sec 922 many will realize that procuring any non-imported, US mfg-required spare parts will prove to be too costly.
Saiga-Conversion-Parts and notes remind that additional US made parts are needed. Imported calibers, especially 7.62x39, has already been bought up and cleaned out from dealer distributors. Inevitable rising of prices will be seen in upcoming months and those who didn't heed my warnings to stock up when everything was available will pay higher prices. Those who listened to me from 9/2011 and avoided the futile waste of money to customize/spiff up AK rifles and shotguns should be comfortable as they secured more important spare parts, mags and ammo instead of optics and mounts and gadgets for guns that will never shoot, handle or perform like an AR15.
If you don't have spare parts, magazines and a comfortable supply of ammo a gun is useless. Mags-guns-ammo frenzy has begun, don't get caught in it."
http://www.kaneohegs.com/index.htm (http://www.kaneohegs.com/index.htm)
Long live the SBBR ! :worship:
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Those who listened to me from 9/2011 and avoided the futile waste of money to customize/spiff up AK rifles and shotguns should be comfortable as they secured more important spare parts, mags and ammo instead of optics and mounts and gadgets for guns that will never shoot, handle or perform like an AR15.
http://www.kaneohegs.com/index.htm (http://www.kaneohegs.com/index.htm)
In other words, you should have bought one of his core15 lowers and built a budget gun, only to find out it's suitable for shooting cans and that to make an AR platform run as reliably as a Russian AK you basically have to spend $2k and carry a bunch of extra parts wherever you go.
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Just get the VEPR 12, you won't regret it.
Yeah but check out this latest shit I just seen today. :>:(
Centerfire Systems was selling VEPR 12's last month for $799. After Obama's EO the price jumped up to $949. And now check this out....a new bastardized version being offered by Centerfire as of today for $849. http://www.centerfiresystems.com/vepr-12fs-02.aspx (http://www.centerfiresystems.com/vepr-12fs-02.aspx)
BACKORDERS ARE BEING ACCEPTED. WE EXPECT TO RECEIVE THESE GUNS BY AUG. 1. Vepr 12GA Semi Auto Shotgun with NON-FOLDING Skeletal Stock (folding mechanism has been removed). The pictures above are a representation of the shotgun but are actually of the Vepr 12 with the stock welded open. This gun WILL NOT have a welded open stock, but rather a skeletal stock with the folding mechanism removed. We have not received these guns yet, therefore we cannot show an exact picture of how the stock is attached.
I wonder how they remove the folding mechanism and what will the stock end up being?
And then someone dug this up:
"The Vepr-12 is exported world wide. Ownership in Russia requires only a Smoothbore-gun license. Due to Russian law, domestic and most export versions of the shotgun are equipped with a disconnector that will render the gun unable to fire while the stock is folded. The shotgun is also imported into the United States. However, BATFE import regulations mandate that the accompanying magazines hold no more than 5 rounds, and the folding stock (on applicable variants) be welded in the open position."
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Thanks guys for your knowledge. I decided first to purchased a LegionUsa Saiga-12 IZSL-433A, Vepr 12 was out of stock. I hope it comes in by next week. I will be traveling to the mainland next week to finalize the adoption process. I hope I have time to will visit several lgs and see what they have available. I might get lucky and find a good deal.
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good call. congratulations!
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In other words, you should have bought one of his core15 lowers and built a budget gun, only to find out it's suitable for shooting cans and that to make an AR platform run as reliably as a Russian AK you basically have to spend $2k and carry a bunch of extra parts wherever you go.
Debatable. :popcorn:
Been shooting my AR (under $1,500 including upgraded trigger, grip, iron sights and aimpoint) for 4 years and the first required repair (last weekend) was for primer stuck in BCG Key (replacement cost of $6.99).
(please see my post at 5.56 vs .223 regarding ammom selection for clarification).
Wifey's had the same rig for 2 yrs with no issues
Yes, we do keep extra firing pin, roller pin, ejector and spring in the handle JIC. :geekdanc:
The discussion was about AK's.
The availability of such as well as parts for same were relevant to topic.