2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Heavies on July 26, 2014, 08:30:33 PM
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Control?
Stopping power?
Availability?
Price?
Make your best argument. .
Thank you!
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hmmmm is SD what I think it means?
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Self defense
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The majority of the more common defensive ammo types and calibers are pretty much the same from a terminal ballistic standpoint in 10% ballistic gel, barring any intermediate barrier considerations. In reality handgun calibers are far from the best choices, from a pure caliber / ballistic / defensive standpoint.
So the bottom line comes down to what do you shoot the most accurate and which allows for the most acceptable amount of speed and accuracy of subsequent follow up shots. We might also want to take into consideration, capacity, weight, availability and cost in that can I get more training and trigger time due to cost considerations or availability of ammo.
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Control?
Stopping power?
Availability?
Price?
Make your best argument. .
Thank you!
less recoil, more control, better follow up shots
stopping power, debatable with modern hollow point ammo, but most will argue .40 and .45 have more stopping power
availability, yes NATO standard pistol ammo size (but 9mm and .45 will disappear first during ammo shortages due to being more popular rounds)
price, cheaper so you can practice more and afford bigger quantities of HP rounds
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The majority of the more common defensive ammo types and calibers are pretty much the same from a terminal ballistic standpoint in 10% ballistic gel, barring any intermediate barrier considerations. In reality handgun calibers are far from the best choices, from a pure caliber / ballistic / defensive standpoint.
So the bottom line comes down to what do you shoot the most accurate and which allows for the most acceptable amount of speed and accuracy of subsequent follow up shots. We might also want to take into consideration, capacity, weight, availability and cost in that can I get more training and trigger time due to cost considerations or availability of ammo.
ignore what i said, surf said it better
:thumbsup:
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The majority of the more common defensive ammo types and calibers are pretty much the same from a terminal ballistic standpoint in 10% ballistic gel, barring any intermediate barrier considerations. In reality handgun calibers are far from the best choices, from a pure caliber / ballistic / defensive standpoint.
So the bottom line comes down to what do you shoot the most accurate and which allows for the most acceptable amount of speed and accuracy of subsequent follow up shots. We might also want to take into consideration, capacity, weight, availability and cost in that can I get more training and trigger time due to cost considerations or availability of ammo.
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I am in total agreement. But you left out a very important factor...the 9mm is legally defensible.
If you off some perp in your house with your custom 1911 with 45acp zombiemax ammo, some defense attorney is going to drag you over the coals.
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Thank you for the comments.
Currently I own .45 acp and .38/.357mag handguns. The latter prepped for SD/HD. I have .38spl defense HPs at the ready. I feel that .357 mag load would be overkill and blinding/deafening in a situation should I need fo use the pistol. The .45 1911 I trust to stop a threat, but due to the age and customization on the weapon, I don't trust it 100% to function in time of crisis. Still, there would be no hesitation if the need arises.
My question is aimed to try to convince myself I need a good autoloader for extra insurance. I think 9mm is comparable to .38spl for this need. No?
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Thank you for the comments.
Currently I own .45 acp and .38/.357mag handguns. The latter prepped for SD/HD. I have .38spl defense HPs at the ready. I feel that .357 mag load would be overkill and blinding/deafening in a situation should I need fo use the pistol. The .45 1911 I trust to stop a threat, but due to the age and customization on the weapon, I don't trust it 100% to function in time of crisis. Still, there would be no hesitation if the need arises.
My question is aimed to try to convince myself I need a good autoloader for extra insurance. I think 9mm is comparable to .38spl for this need. No?
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38 spl with 158 gr.lead hollow points is a dandy sd load.
I think that is what hpd used to use. It's legally defensible. Like the current 9mm gold dots.
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38 spl with 158 gr.lead hollow points is a dandy sd load.
I think that is what hpd used to use. It's legally defensible. Like the current 9mm gold dots.
i bought 147 gr GDHP a couple of years ago thinking that what HPD uses is most defensible in court
i was told the other week they now use 124 gr GDHP
don't know when or why they changed, but that's what i was told
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In the end I think the use of deadly force is the only legal defense to be worried about more than the caliber of the round. That being said, I think making sure you choose around that will put down the the threat without over penetrating to your neighbor and possibly hurting an innocent is important as well.
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In the end I think the use of deadly force is the only legal defense to be worried about more than the caliber of the round. That being said, I think making sure you choose around that will put down the the threat without over penetrating to your neighbor and possibly hurting an innocent is important as well.
I would have to agree. The caliber of the round you choose, at a moment in time where you have split seconds to make a decision, is irrelevant.
Use what you feel comfortable shooting and be accurate. Stop the threat. Say nothing to the police without your attorney present.
Remember, anything you say CAN and WILL be used against you in court.
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You can get souped up guns in any caliber, so it really isn't the caliber. Any of the top and current quality ammo that is known for its defensive capabilities are very close in performance. Speer Gold Dot happens to be an excellent choice. In 9mm the HPD does use Speer 124gr GDHP. The .38 round utilized and issued in the revolver era was 158gr lead, semi-wadcutter HP. The HPD also has .40S&W and just added .45ACP and both are also Speer GDHP.
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I would have to agree. The caliber of the round you choose, at a moment in time where you have split seconds to make a decision, is irrelevant.
Use what you feel comfortable shooting and be accurate. Stop the threat. Say nothing to the police without your attorney present.
Remember, anything you say CAN and WILL be used against you in court.
aw, man, ed
i was expecting, ".45ACP, because 230 grain is twice as big as 115 grain"
:geekdanc:
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The only advantage in this state is price
I would stick with your .38special setup
Its a tried and true SD/HD load
I dont see any significant advantage in changing to 9mm
Maybe if having 10 rounds and faster reloads are what you need, then 9mm may be better
Revolver speedloaders can be quick too.
I have asked myself the same question bc i have 45 and 357 just like you and wondered about the 9mm
But in the end my goto HD gun is my GP100 loaded with 38sp +p semiwadcutter hollwpoints
If its good enough for the FBI, its good enough for enough me.
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The HPD also has .40S&W and just added .45ACP and both are also Speer GDHP.
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I did not know that about the 40 and 45
Regardless, another reason not to use a souped up 1911 loaded with Gold dots is again, legal defensibility.
Now you have a civil attorney questioning you about the "huge powerful 45 ammo designed to inflict maximum damage to my client" being fired from a "highly modified 45 caliber semiautomatic pistol with a modified hair trigger"
Or something along those lines...you get the idea?
Oh yeah, they will also confiscate your $2000 tactical-1911-custom-rail-surfire-laserbeamed-kimber. Probably be gone for years while you get sued by the family of the perp you offed.
My thought is your sd gun should be a high quality nearly stock item with the same ammo as is being issued by the local pd to the average beat cop.
Better still if you can get a gun similar to the make and model of the local beat cops.
If you off a perp with a stock gun and it gets confiscated, you won't be crying at the loss of a beloved custom 1911.
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aw, man, ed
i was expecting, ".45ACP, because 230 grain is twice as big as 115 grain"
:geekdanc:
Well.......115+115 DOES equal 230. Why strain yourself by having to pull the trigger twice?
Not to mention the wear and tear on your beloved firearm.
Also, IMO, there is a much greater chance of over penetration with 9mm as it depends on higher velocity to get the job done.
At the distances involved in most home defense situations the .45 ACP will deliver more kinetic energy to the target with less velocity.
Here's a question, if I'm forced to defend my business from an armed robber, can I expense the wear and maintenance of my firearm as well the cost of ammo?
:D
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I did not know that about the 40 and 45
Regardless, another reason not to use a souped up 1911 loaded with Gold dots is again, legal defensibility.
Now you have a civil attorney questioning you about the "huge powerful 45 ammo designed to inflict maximum damage to my client" being fired from a "highly modified 45 caliber semiautomatic pistol with a modified hair trigger"
Or something along those lines...you get the idea?
Oh yeah, they will also confiscate your $2000 tactical-1911-custom-rail-surfire-laserbeamed-kimber. Probably be gone for years while you get sued by the family of the perp you offed.
My thought is your sd gun should be a high quality nearly stock item with the same ammo as is being issued by the local pd to the average beat cop.
Better still if you can get a gun similar to the make and model of the local beat cops.
If you off a perp with a stock gun and it gets confiscated, you won't be crying at the loss of a beloved custom 1911.
That's why I have the $450.00 slightly modified Rock Island A-1.
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I just don't buy expensive firearms and leave most of mine stock.
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I did not know that about the 40 and 45
Regardless, another reason not to use a souped up 1911 loaded with Gold dots is again, legal defensibility.
Now you have a civil attorney questioning you about the "huge powerful 45 ammo designed to inflict maximum damage to my client" being fired from a "highly modified 45 caliber semiautomatic pistol with a modified hair trigger"
Or something along those lines...you get the idea?
Oh yeah, they will also confiscate your $2000 tactical-1911-custom-rail-surfire-laserbeamed-kimber. Probably be gone for years while you get sued by the family of the perp you offed.
My thought is your sd gun should be a high quality nearly stock item with the same ammo as is being issued by the local pd to the average beat cop.
Better still if you can get a gun similar to the make and model of the local beat cops.
If you off a perp with a stock gun and it gets confiscated, you won't be crying at the loss of a beloved custom 1911.
Again it has nothing to do with caliber selection. They could argue the same points if I use a modified Glock17 9mm. If one sticks with quality, modern, proven defensive ammunition, in a common use defensive caliber, the caliber debate is not the issue. Any attorney can argue anything. I really could care less if I were to lose my Nighthawk, STI or Wilson 1911 for a few or several months, if it did its job. I don't even own a Kimber and they could keep it if I did own one. ;)
While I have many firearms that are not cheap as I consider myself both a collector and a shooter, the reality is that I rely on a Glock 17 or G 19 pistol, utilizing a common defensive round, as does my mother, father and wife. OK sometimes I might have a G21, but I am after all an old school .45 ACP fan, but not caliber blind enough to understand how effective I am with a 9mm G17 or G19. :)
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That's why I have the $450.00 slightly modified Rock Island A-1.
Sane reason why I have a S&W SD9VE and SD40VE in my quick access safes. Both are inexpensive reliable pistols.
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I did not know that about the 40 and 45
Regardless, another reason not to use a souped up 1911 loaded with Gold dots is again, legal defensibility.
Now you have a civil attorney questioning you about the "huge powerful 45 ammo designed to inflict maximum damage to my client" being fired from a "highly modified 45 caliber semiautomatic pistol with a modified hair trigger"
Or something along those lines...you get the idea?
Oh yeah, they will also confiscate your $2000 tactical-1911-custom-rail-surfire-laserbeamed-kimber. Probably be gone for years while you get sued by the family of the perp you offed.
My thought is your sd gun should be a high quality nearly stock item with the same ammo as is being issued by the local pd to the average beat cop.
Better still if you can get a gun similar to the make and model of the local beat cops.
If you off a perp with a stock gun and it gets confiscated, you won't be crying at the loss of a beloved custom 1911.
Minor point: The COPs don't keep evidence for civil trials. Once the criminal investigation is over, assuming they do not press charges, the gun is no longer evidence. If charges get filed, then that extends the confiscation period.
It's still a good idea to not use a "family heirloom" for protection, to avoid the potential for long term confiscation or even loss at the hands of the property clerk. it happens!
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.40 is just as accurate for me and since our mags are neutered there's no real advantage for 9mm
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Do you need one, or do you want one? Either way, buy the best that you can afford, and that includes ammo. For me personally, I don't have the need or the desire to own a 9. I'm actually reducing the number of firearms that I own by selling off 2 .45's to finance one. I have a new 1911 in .45 coming in this week, and I already put 2 up for sale last week with one sale pending. Just trying to keep things simple.
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Minor point: The COPs don't keep evidence for civil trials. Once the criminal investigation is over, assuming they do not press charges, the gun is no longer evidence. If charges get filed, then that extends the confiscation period.
It's still a good idea to not use a "family heirloom" for protection, to avoid the potential for long term confiscation or even loss at the hands of the property clerk. it happens!
Related.. my $0.02.. don't use a gun with punisher slide covers or similar cosmetic mods that make it all scary-looking for SD. Purely anecdotal on my part.. but I can definitely see a prosecutor blowing up a photo showing an evil-looking skull to convince a jury you were looking to kill someone.
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Well.......115+115 DOES equal 230. Why strain yourself by having to pull the trigger twice?
Not to mention the wear and tear on your beloved firearm.
Also, IMO, there is a much greater chance of over penetration with 9mm as it depends on higher velocity to get the job done.
At the distances involved in most home defense situations the .45 ACP will deliver more kinetic energy to the target with less velocity.Here's a question, if I'm forced to defend my business from an armed robber, can I expense the wear and maintenance of my firearm as well the cost of ammo?
:D
If you look closely at the velocities of say 124 gr GDHP and 230 gr GDHP, the "standard" load 124 gr is about 90% of the kinetic energy of the 230 gr (1/2 mass x velocity squared). But if you look at the 124 gr +P, it actually has slightly more kinetic energy than the 230 gr. In the big picture, they are all about the same energy, but my point was that the common perception is that the heavier calibers always have more kinetic energy than the lighter calibers and that's not always the case. In fact, I was just having this conversation with a buddy who is in the HPD and is a former federal LE. He was considering a Sig 40 S&W for a personal gun because he felt that the 40 S&W would have more kinetic energy (he actually said stopping power :-[ ) than his duty 9 mm.
For me, I have to factor in the cost of 9 mm in that I want to train as much as I can with my selected defensive load. I haven't done side by side testing with a shot timer in a while, but I am able to put more rounds on target in less time with a Glock 17 than my H&K USP 40c and a M&P 45.
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Thank you for the wonderful insights.
If you look closely at the velocities of say 124 gr GDHP and 230 gr GDHP, the "standard" load 124 gr is about 90% of the kinetic energy of the 230 gr (1/2 mass x velocity squared). But if you look at the 124 gr +P, it actually has slightly more kinetic energy than the 230 gr. In the big picture, they are all about the same energy, but my point was that the common perception is that the heavier calibers always have more kinetic energy than the lighter calibers and that's not always the case. In fact, I was just having this conversation with a buddy who is in the HPD and is a former federal LE. He was considering a Sig 40 S&W for a personal gun because he felt that the 40 S&W would have more kinetic energy (he actually said stopping power :-[ ) than his duty 9 mm.
For me, I have to factor in the cost of 9 mm in that I want to train as much as I can with my selected defensive load. I haven't done side by side testing with a shot timer in a while, but I am able to put more rounds on target in less time with a Glock 17 than my H&K USP 40c and a M&P 45.
I thinks it's been argued that the reason the .45 stops better is because it makes bigger holes in the perp.
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Thank you for the wonderful insights.
I thinks it's been argued that the reason the .45 stops better is because it makes bigger holes in the perp.
Are you referring to JHP ammunition?
Regarding military use, I've heard tons of discussion/arguements regarding ammo size, but they're shooting NATO ball ammo. With regards to modern hollow point ammo, I don't have personal experience, but as mentioned previously, there doesn't appear to be a significant difference in terminal ballistic performance. Will 45 have a bigger hole? Probably, but it's the wound cavity that counts IMO.
My point was just the misperceptions regarding terms like "stopping power", "knockdown power", etc. I'm not saying that all of YOU have those misperceptions, but that many people that I come across do. However, many of those people aren't into firearms.
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Are you referring to JHP ammunition?
Regarding military use, I've heard tons of discussion/arguements regarding ammo size, but they're shooting NATO ball ammo. With regards to modern hollow point ammo, I don't have personal experience, but as mentioned previously, there doesn't appear to be a significant difference in terminal ballistic performance. Will 45 have a bigger hole? Probably, but it's the wound cavity that counts IMO.
My point was just the misperceptions regarding terms like "stopping power", "knockdown power", etc. I'm not saying that all of YOU have those misperceptions, but that many people that I come across do. However, many of those people aren't into firearms.
Speaking to ball ammo required by NATO. However, it does make sense that even in HP ammo, a larger diameter makes larger holes.
I like to keep Critical Defense ammo due to the plastic tip will keep the hollow point from plugging with debris, enabling the bullet to expand as designed.
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/marines-pay-22m-to-go-back-to-their-old-guns-colt-45-caliber-pistols/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/marines-pay-22m-to-go-back-to-their-old-guns-colt-45-caliber-pistols/)
USMC trading in their 9mm Beretta's for Colt 1911's
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/marines-pay-22m-to-go-back-to-their-old-guns-colt-45-caliber-pistols/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/marines-pay-22m-to-go-back-to-their-old-guns-colt-45-caliber-pistols/)
USMC trading in their 9mm Beretta's for Colt 1911's
IMHO, Beretta aren't the best choice for a 9mm anyway. Lol
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IMHO, Beretta aren't the best choice for a 9mm anyway. Lol
yes, the M9 isn't the best 9mm out there.
but they did switch from a 9mm to a .45acp, and not to another 9mm.
obviously they didn't switch to save money.
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yes, the M9 isn't the best 9mm out there.
but they did switch from a 9mm to a .45acp, and not to another 9mm.
obviously they didn't switch to save money.
Yes! They switched to make bigger holes! ;D
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Yes! They switched to make bigger holes! ;D
Or they had a bunch of guys like you, Stangzilla, and me who made the decision. ;D Personally the M1911 and M1911A1 are my favorite U.S. military handguns without any doubt.
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Didn't take long for this to devolve into a 9mm vs 45 thread.
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Or they had a bunch of guys like you, Stangzilla, and me who made the decision. ;D Personally the M1911 and M1911A1 are my favorite U.S. military handguns without any doubt.
anything else just wouldn't be American! :thumbsup:
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yes, the M9 isn't the best 9mm out there.
but they did switch from a 9mm to a .45acp, and not to another 9mm.
obviously they didn't switch to save money.
The military is limited in the type of ammunition it can use unlike civilians. So you also need to factor that in.
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With modern ammunition, the difference in performance is getting pretty marginal. In theory, the large .45 should create a larger permanent wound channel.
However, look at the three ways to effective stop someone.
Destruction of the central nervous system, aka brain or spine shot. Near instant incapacitation in almost every case. Makes no difference between 9mm or .45.
Major organ failure. Heart, lungs... something that should be working suddenly isn't. A 9mm or .45 in the right spot will do the same thing. The temporary wound channel/expansion for either round is significant.
Fatal blood loss. Probably the only time where the extra size of the .45 would be a clear advantage. However, it really depends on how many holes, and how close to a major artery you hit.
So in general... accuracy and multiple hits is more important than caliber in most of the aspects. I love my .45, but I bought it when .45acp was only a few dollars more a box than 9mm. Now 9mm is between 1/2-2/3rds the price of .45acp on any given day. Cheaper ammo means more range time. More range time is always a good thing.
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so, if one could shoot the .45 as accurate as the 9mm,
then the .45 would be better. :shaka:
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what does it mean when the 9mm round is referred to as "legally defensible?"
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With modern ammunition, the difference in performance is getting pretty marginal. In theory, the large .45 should create a larger permanent wound channel.
However, look at the three ways to effective stop someone.
Destruction of the central nervous system, aka brain or spine shot. Near instant incapacitation in almost every case. Makes no difference between 9mm or .45.
Major organ failure. Heart, lungs... something that should be working suddenly isn't. A 9mm or .45 in the right spot will do the same thing. The temporary wound channel/expansion for either round is significant.
Fatal blood loss. Probably the only time where the extra size of the .45 would be a clear advantage. However, it really depends on how many holes, and how close to a major artery you hit.
So in general... accuracy and multiple hits is more important than caliber in most of the aspects. I love my .45, but I bought it when .45acp was only a few dollars more a box than 9mm. Now 9mm is between 1/2-2/3rds the price of .45acp on any given day. Cheaper ammo means more range time. More range time is always a good thing.
:thumbsup:
Yep. Switches and timers. Another thing to consider is that if you don't hit the switch, the aggressor/threat will likely be on top of you, even if you get multiple hits on the center of mass. I'd have to look up the studies, but IIRC, something like an average of about 15-20 seconds of aerobic capacity left even if someone is hit where they will eventually bleed out. The point is that you should plan on having to deal with the aggressor "up close and personal" even if you are able to shoot him center of mass.
so, if one could shoot the .45 as accurate as the 9mm,
then the .45 would be better. :shaka:
:P
If you also can afford to shoot .45 ACP. . . then you can buy beers for the rest of us too! ;D
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:thumbsup:
Yep. Switches and timers. Another thing to consider is that if you don't hit the switch, the aggressor/threat will likely be on top of you, even if you get multiple hits on the center of mass. I'd have to look up the studies, but IIRC, something like an average of about 15-20 seconds of aerobic capacity left even if someone is hit where they will eventually bleed out. The point is that you should plan on having to deal with the aggressor "up close and personal" even if you are able to shoot him center of mass.
:P
If you also can afford to shoot .45 ACP. . . then you can buy beers for the rest of us too! ;D
Hell, there are cases of guys taking shots to the heart that keep going for another 20-30 seconds. Adrenaline, drugs, physiology, and plain damn stubbornness to die are all things will play an X factor. That's why the concept of "one shot stop" is a joke.
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Hell, there are cases of guys taking shots to the heart that keep going for another 20-30 seconds. Adrenaline, drugs, physiology, and plain damn stubbornness to die are all things will play an X factor. That's why the concept of "one shot stop" is a joke.
Yup. Maybe even more. I just remember the 20 second figure for some reason. I think it was because in a class, the instructor said something like "guess how much time it will take for me to close XXX distance". It was probably something like 30 feet and we were amazed that even guys in moderate shape could close that distance in just a few seconds. Which meant that they have at least 15+ seconds where they'll be on you, engaging you and if they have a knife, they are probably cutting you!
Drugs seem to be increasing in prevalence as well. I remember that line from Black Hawk Down where the Colonel mentions that they'l be hitting the market in the afternoon when the Somalis are "all hopped up on cot". Not "exactly" the situation that any of use would likely face, but that amphetamines do give people seemingly super human powers.
That "one shot stop" sure is pretty effective for the movies though! ;)
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If you also can afford to shoot .45 ACP. . . then you can buy beers for the rest of us too! ;D
sure.
the Colt 45 is on me! ;)
(http://www.bolgernow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Colt-45-Beer.jpg)
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Didn't take long for this to devolve into a 9mm vs 45 thread.
I have to blame this one on macsak. If you read my first post you'll see I was being quite neutral.
Mac encouraged me, or perhaps harangued is a better term, into espousing the obvious superiority of .45 ACP over puny, insignificant 9mm.
I'm really the innocent, injured party here. :D
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In my opinion SD is anything you can grab before the perp gets you. If all you got is a 22, use it. I doubt anyone wants to get shot with that either. As for recoil control I doubt anyone would be rock steady in a situation like that. I believe the average shots for home defense is around two so I wouldn't even factor in recoil control unless you shooting something like a 500 S&W. I say pick what is affordable, what feels the most comfortable, and what you had the most training with. Size shouldn't matter but that's not what my wife says. :(
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Thanks for all the info. Like I said I have a .45 so that's covered. I was just curious how you all thought about 9MM for SD, and got some insight. Awesome.
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I have to blame this one on macsak. If you read my first post you'll see I was being quite neutral.
Mac encouraged me, or perhaps harangued is a better term, into espousing the obvious superiority of .45 ACP over puny, insignificant 9mm.
I'm really the innocent, injured party here. :D
yes
i am responsible, you are not
i make you wear that t-shirt all the time too >:D