2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: robtmc on August 17, 2014, 09:40:29 AM
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http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/15/us/surplus-military-equipment-map.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/15/us/surplus-military-equipment-map.html?_r=0)
According to this interactive map by the (cough, spit) NYT, HPD has been given three MRAPS.
Never knew you guys on Oahu were such a pack of terrorists!
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Great. Id rather see them in use than being left behind, tossed in the ocean or melted down like M14s. They should repaint them Dillon blue to be less mil looking.
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So, has Kealoha issued any public announcements about why he asked for these? It ought to be a great excuse.........
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The HPD does not have a single military MRAP, much less 3 of them.
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The HPD does not have a single military MRAP, much less 3 of them.
The Nu Yerk Times apparently has info that says otherwise. Maybe not delivered yet? I doubt HPD wants to discuss the matter one way or the other.
I'd keep an ear to the ground if I lived in Honolulu. Unpaid parking tickets could be a bitch...............
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Not the best suspension for comfort. I was stuck in one for 7+ hours going into Baghdad. Felt like the scene from Aliens where the colonial Marines dropped into the planet. It sucked. A bit overkill but when the HPD needs armored vehicle such as the situation in Pearl City Palisades where they needed one - the State had to put soldiers on AD to operate the thing, then they have to drive the thing there etc.
An internal armored vehicle for the HPD would be more efficient and faster to deploy.
Aliens- Combat Drop Alternate Version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn45pl8yXzk#ws)
imagine the vehicle weight tax
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They're leaf springs so yeah not exactly comfort-oriented.
Upkeep + training on these things "in case something happens" is ridiculous IMO given the other assets on-island.
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I don't know why everyone complaining about riding in an MRAP; the new suspensions they retrofitted are wonderful.
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The Nu Yerk Times apparently has info that says otherwise. Maybe not delivered yet? I doubt HPD wants to discuss the matter one way or the other.
I'd keep an ear to the ground if I lived in Honolulu. Unpaid parking tickets could be a bitch...............
The HPD would have zero issues discussing such a matter. They wouldn't and couldn't hide such information. They do not have any military MRAPs, nor does any other county. While I did say there are no military supplied MRAPs in Hawaii LE, I did not say that there are no armored vehicles in Hawaii as that is also no secret that there are 3 counties in Hawaii that have Lenco Bearcats and yes one is owned by the HPD. Unpaid parking tickets, hardly the case. Evacuating people safely from their homes when in the line of fire, or doing rescues for citizens or Officers, yep. Nearly 6 years in service and it ain't out there stealing citizens souls or oppressing the people. But the tinfoil hat stories are so much more interesting I guess, so feel free to carry on.
....A bit overkill but when the HPD needs armored vehicle such as the situation in Pearl City Palisades where they needed one - the State had to put soldiers on AD to operate the thing, then they have to drive the thing there etc.
An internal armored vehicle for the HPD would be more efficient and faster to deploy.
It is no secret that the HPD has memorandums of agreements with State, Federal and the various branches of the Military so I will comment. Yes the HPD had an agreement to utilize the National Guard which provided LAVs and drivers for certain uses, but as you mention, logistically it was not efficient, nor optimal. I also agree with your earlier post in that I hate to see our tax dollars going to waste, especially when items such as armored vehicles can provide LE with many alternatives to keep themselves and the public safe. Lets face it, most local LE agencies can't afford such vehicles that can really do a lot of good for communities. In many instances, many good people may have been killed needlessly if not for the availability of armored vehicles in LE, but it is much cooler this day in age to put on the tinfoil hat and jump on the media blitz bandwagon. Good to hear some like yourself are seeing it for what it is. :)
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Great. Id rather see them in use than being left behind, tossed in the ocean or melted down like M14s. They should repaint them Dillon blue to be less mil looking.
If it was painted blue, then it would look like NATO, not an improvement.
I think it's overdue for HPD to get a good armored vehicle for extreme situations and if it's free then all the better. However don't think they would need 3 of them, would require more upkeep and expense.
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But the tinfoil hat stories are so much more interesting I guess, so feel free to carry on.
...but it is much cooler this day in age to put on the tinfoil hat and jump on the media blitz bandwagon.
Perhaps you have read Radley Balko's "Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces." Could you please comment on whether or not you believe the information (and documentation) in that book is the result of a "tinfoil hat"? Thanks.
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Perhaps you have read Radley Balko's "Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces." Could you please comment on whether or not you believe the information (and documentation) in that book is the result of a "tinfoil hat"? Thanks.
I have not read that book, so I cannot comment even if I wanted to. In reality I really don't like to engage in these discussions in this type of venue. Unfortunately there is so much misinformation, monday morning quarterbacking and blatant undermining of certain agencies / topics that is hard not to attempt to shed some light of reason into topics. Unfortunately it is much more comical for most to make off the wall comments and posts for the sake of entertainment that I sometimes feel compelled to give my own 2 cents. Questioning the Government or authority is not wrong, bashing it without just cause is undermining the trust and faith in those who selflessly attempt to do the right thing and put it all on the line for their community and country. Those who make these type of off color, or blanket type of posts and statements for the sake of personal entertainment or whatever their agenda are quite frankly akin to jumping into the same end of the pool as the Sharpton's of our society.
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HPD and it's personnel take the tough jobs of dealing with our community's criminal elements so that we don't have to.
The sad thing is that after they arrest and put these guys in jail, our justice / prison system is overcrowded and gets these criminals back out on the streets again. So the cops that put their lives on the line to do the dirty work has to do the same thing over again.
C'mon give our HPD guys a break.
The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.
Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn’t tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, “Baa.”
Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog"
Reference: http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm (http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm)
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Here's a simple concept. How about if society behaves? Then we won't need all this crap. Yeah, in an ideal world of Care Bears and dancing GummyBears. But no the scum of our society continues to be dumbarses and do stupid stuff. For example, the three kids who lived in public housing, living off our taxpayer generousity were the same perps that robbed banks with guns. A slap in the face not only as taxpayers but as responsible gun owner-citizens. If I were to apprehend these guys would I go in with an ulumaika and a spear? Hell no. Police tactics evolve with technology and the ever evolving criminal threat. Not the same as the military. The military wouldn't be concerned about taking these guys to jail, they'd drop a JDAM on these perps while they are on Facebook bragging about all the paper they stole.
The key difference is what the police does with their equipment from the .mil. PID standards are different from the police and military. If you are curious about polce work, I;d suggest a ride-along or volunteer as a police officer. You will understand the requirements and standards. There's a reason why the HPD academy is 6+ mos long. There is a lot of training involved as the City wants to ensure they put the right, well-trained person on the street. In comparison look at the Army's basic training, its about 9 weeks long then you go to your MOS school.
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HPD and it's personnel take the tough jobs of dealing with our community's criminal elements so that we don't have to.
I find your comment above troubling on a 2A forum, where in Hawaii we are prohibited from dealing with criminal elements, indeed would probably be in prison with them if we did have the temerity to defend ourselves.
Surf impugns that I may be some sort of Sharpton because i posted an interesting map showing where all the military equipment was going, and that some (MRAPS) was going to Hawaii, He may be right that the NYT info is bogus. So posting the link is tinfoil hat territory and an attempt to undermine HPD? It should be ignored because he says so? I posted it for the interest of the general Hawaii2A community, not to please HPD.
Yes, the cops have to deal with slime. Quite the leap to go from questioning a news article about militarization of civilian police with military castoffs..........................I suppose you were trying to make some sort of point, but it irritated me in its tone.
Yeah, I am in a PO'd mood tonight for some reason.
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Just saw this online
Obama: Time to review local police militarization
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20140818_Obama_sending_attorney_general_Holder_to_Missouri.html?id=271731911 (http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20140818_Obama_sending_attorney_general_Holder_to_Missouri.html?id=271731911)
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I find your comment above troubling on a 2A forum, where in Hawaii we are prohibited from dealing with criminal elements, indeed would probably be in prison with them if we did have the temerity to defend ourselves.
I agree with you about this. But this is our lawmakers and politicans' fault, not the HPD line of duty cop. Those that voted for these anti-2a politicians can also share in the blame.
Yes, the cops have to deal with slime. Quite the leap to go from questioning a news article about militarization of civilian police with military castoffs..........................I suppose you were trying to make some sort of point, but it irritated me in its tone.
My earlier post wasn't directed at you specifically but was just a general rant as mainstream media news now seems to be full of articles concerning the "militarization of the police". robtmc, I don't know you in person but I suspect that you are / were in the armed forces and I have the utmost respect for you.
I suppose my earlier point is that in the same way we equip our soldiers with the best equipment and protective gear, it should be the same for the police force as well. If HPD can get equipment that protects its police force better, then good for them. Give them the best equipment especially if the feds are casting them off to the various states. It's not like we have a surplus of cops in Honolulu... if I remember the stats correctly, we were (are?) 200-300 officers short.
I have been on HPD ride-alongs and only have a glimpse of what HPD has to deal with on a daily basis. I'm glad I don't have that job, can work regular hours (sort of) and be with my family most of the time in the day. I don't think Honolulu is anywhere as bad a city as LA for example and I don't believe HPD officers are as aggressive as LAPD officers.
I certainly hope that when police and military do training exercises together, the distinct differences between the functions of police (keeping the peace) vs the military (annihilating the enemy) are not lost in the training. If the police force is employed like the military against its own population, then this society has clearly gone awry.
Yeah, I am in a PO'd mood tonight for some reason.
Yeah, well.. what can we do huh? Too many Obummer worshipers in this state.
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Just saw this online
Obama: Time to review local police militarization
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20140818_Obama_sending_attorney_general_Holder_to_Missouri.html?id=271731911 (http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20140818_Obama_sending_attorney_general_Holder_to_Missouri.html?id=271731911)
Yeah, when people that "could be Obama's sons" are facing the police, he's suddenly worried about military equipment in the hands of LE.
Wasn't that long ago the same thing was happening to a rancher named Bundy and his family in Nevada.
Funny how priorities and concerns change when someone really cares about the parties involved.
(http://i.imgur.com/m8wnQAU.jpg)
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^^^ Good point!
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HPD and it's personnel take the tough jobs of dealing with our community's criminal elements so that we don't have to.
The sad thing is that after they arrest and put these guys in jail, our justice / prison system is overcrowded and gets these criminals back out on the streets again. So the cops that put their lives on the line to do the dirty work has to do the same thing over again.
C'mon give our HPD guys a break.
Reference: http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm (http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm)
You are hitting at a huge crux of the problem, which incessantly frustrates LEO's. Officers on the streets busting and putting their asses on the line, only to have the judicial system working on a catch and release program. One side of the judicial system is doing their job and their other side is consistently letting the other side down.
Here's a simple concept. How about if society behaves? Then we won't need all this crap. Yeah, in an ideal world of Care Bears and dancing GummyBears. But no the scum of our society continues to be dumbarses and do stupid stuff. For example, the three kids who lived in public housing, living off our taxpayer generousity were the same perps that robbed banks with guns. A slap in the face not only as taxpayers but as responsible gun owner-citizens. If I were to apprehend these guys would I go in with an ulumaika and a spear? Hell no. Police tactics evolve with technology and the ever evolving criminal threat. Not the same as the military. The military wouldn't be concerned about taking these guys to jail, they'd drop a JDAM on these perps while they are on Facebook bragging about all the paper they stole.
The key difference is what the police does with their equipment from the .mil. PID standards are different from the police and military. If you are curious about polce work, I;d suggest a ride-along or volunteer as a police officer. You will understand the requirements and standards. There's a reason why the HPD academy is 6+ mos long. There is a lot of training involved as the City wants to ensure they put the right, well-trained person on the street. In comparison look at the Army's basic training, its about 9 weeks long then you go to your MOS school.
Herein lies a huge problem. We are a society of cry babies. Everyone gets a medal or deserves a trophy. Push the "easy button". Entitlement at its best. I remember the days that if I acted like a jackass and the popo slapped me upside the head and my father found out.....guess what? My father would beat my ass also. Not today in age. Everyone wants to cry foul. I am not talking abuse, but an overall lack of respect. Society going ass backwards and we are all going to reap the rewards.
I appreciate your stance as it is not a popular one, especially on this forum, but it is not one we should ignore. The HPD standards is light years ahead of any training standards from 99.9% of mainland counterparts. We are lucky we live Hawaii. These are our sons, daughters, etc.. and many seem to forget this. Who are the biggest crying foul? Those who are the least connected. Hawaii is unique in that we have way too many family ties and the local HPD Officers who are the majority do not forget this. We should not also.
I find your comment above troubling on a 2A forum, where in Hawaii we are prohibited from dealing with criminal elements, indeed would probably be in prison with them if we did have the temerity to defend ourselves.
Surf impugns that I may be some sort of Sharpton because i posted an interesting map showing where all the military equipment was going, and that some (MRAPS) was going to Hawaii, He may be right that the NYT info is bogus. So posting the link is tinfoil hat territory and an attempt to undermine HPD? It should be ignored because he says so? I posted it for the interest of the general Hawaii2A community, not to please HPD.
Yes, the cops have to deal with slime. Quite the leap to go from questioning a news article about militarization of civilian police with military castoffs..........................I suppose you were trying to make some sort of point, but it irritated me in its tone.
Yeah, I am in a PO'd mood tonight for some reason.
Take a break my friend. While all is not roses, it is far from the problem that you are attempting to imply. Lucky we live Hawaii. There are far far far few problems here than elsewhere. The HPD really does give a shit.
Just saw this online
Obama: Time to review local police militarization
Just saw this online
Obama: Time to review local police militarization
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20140818_Obama_sending_attorney_general_Holder_to_Missouri.html?id=271731911 (http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20140818_Obama_sending_attorney_general_Holder_to_Missouri.html?id=271731911)
Clown shoes, plain and simple. It has been that way since the very beginning. Used car salesman at best. Many people ignored this and here we are today. Clown shoes.
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Yeah, well.. what can we do huh? Too many Obummer worshipers in this state.
The political bias here runs deep. This is the worst state in the union when it comes to blindly towing the party line.
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Here is a link to a Detroit Free Press article that has a searchable database for military surplus equipment given to police departments, by state and county. Since this shows 3 MRAPs going to Honolulu county on March 3, 2014, it's likely the same database relied on by the New York Times.
http://www.freep.com/article/20140817/NEWS06/140726001/?appSession=835117161719430&cbSearchAgain=true&AppKey=36701000b255adcfe6ca4b13a8a4 (http://www.freep.com/article/20140817/NEWS06/140726001/?appSession=835117161719430&cbSearchAgain=true&AppKey=36701000b255adcfe6ca4b13a8a4)
State County Item Name Quantity UI Value Ship Date
HI HONOLULU CLOSE QUARTERS BATT 3 Unknown $0.00 4/23/2011
HI HONOLULU ILLUMINATOR,INFRARED 2 Each $7,786.31 7/29/2009
HI HONOLULU IMAGE INTENSIFIER,NIGHT VISION 4 Unknown $0.00 3/24/2011
HI HONOLULU MINE RESISTANT VEHICLE 3 Each $412,000.00 3/3/2014
HI HONOLULU RACK,TALL 2 EA $1,268.10
HI HONOLULU TRUCK,UTILITY 1 Each $25,000.00 3/19/2012
HI HONOLULU TRUCK,UTILITY 1 Each $25,000.00 12/6/2012
HI HONOLULU TRUCK,UTILITY 1 Each $25,000.00 12/6/2012
HI HONOLULU TRUCK,UTILITY 1 Each $25,000.00 12/6/2012
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There's a lot more than just giving .mil equipment away. Driving an MRAP is not like driving a Ford F150. The brakes require you to stomp on them. I almost hit a BMW when I drove it around Schofield. I thought I was stopped.
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Hmmm ... so if HPD doesn't have the 3 MRAPs as Surf said, where did they go?
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Hmmm ... so if HPD doesn't have the 3 MRAPs as Surf said, where did they go?
(http://ftp-reviews.com/windward-dodge/files/2014/03/FTP-Header-JERRY-V1.png)
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That's quite a sales commission! :rofl:
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There's a lot more than just giving .mil equipment away. Driving an MRAP is not like driving a Ford F150. The brakes require you to stomp on them. I almost hit a BMW when I drove it around Schofield. I thought I was stopped.
Wrong again.
MRAPs have had improved braking systems since 2009, and were getting retrofitted with new braking systems, along with the new suspensions, since 2010 in order to recycle vehicles for units that could not get MATVs.
Please stop trying to act like the resident MRAP expert if you have not even drove our worked on a retrofitted one recently; you are just disseminating false, outdated information.
P.S. If you can drive an F150, you can drive an MRAP. Only difference is how you or the truck into gear.
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Wrong again.
MRAPs have had improved braking systems since 2009, and were getting retrofitted with new braking systems, along with the new suspensions, since 2010 in order to recycle vehicles for units that could not get MATVs.
Please stop trying to act like the resident MRAP expert if you have not even drove our worked on a retrofitted one recently; you are just disseminating false, outdated information.
P.S. If you can drive an F150, you can drive an MRAP. Only difference is how you or the truck into gear.
You are the almighty Q - How can I question your expertise.
(http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/12000000/Q-vs-Mankind-q-star-trek-12045646-640-614.jpg)
I never stated I was an expert just relating my experience. I'm a short lil asian guy who had a hard time stopping the thing, so obviously I wasn't an expert by any means.
DISCLAIMER:
I don't sell, repair or am an SME on MRAPs
I haven't seen the HPD with any MRAPs thus far.
Mad tin foil hatters indulge :popcorn:
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I am very against the militarization of police. Very very against.
However, given the circumstances of our island's population, density and geographic isolation, HPD having such capable vehicles makes more sense than some random podunk towns with less than 15,000 people having them.
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I think I had an MRAP for dinner once. I found it chewy.
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I think I had an MRAP for dinner once. I found it chewy.
drunken posting?
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drunken posting?
Nope! I think it was at a Denny's.
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Nope! I think it was at a Denny's.
Maybe they were making some armor plating for the MRAP? I've had some steak there so tuff I thought I could of used it as a chest plate lol.
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Maybe they were making some armor plating for the MRAP? I've had some steak there so tuff I thought I could of used it as a chest plate lol.
Not sure about that. It obviously didn't protect the original owner very well!
>:D
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I think sometimes we forget that the police enforce the laws that the elected legislators create. I don’t think its right to be salty towards HPD because Hawaii has such Draconian gun laws. We need to elect people into office that respect the 2nd amendment and get the laws changed. HPD didn’t write the statutes, but it’s their duty to enforce them. I bet they would be stoked if the laws were changed and registering a gun wasn’t such a time consuming bureaucratic nightmare. I’m not a cop but I don’t like it when people attack cops like they’re the ones that create the law. Just my two cents.
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I bet they would be stoked if the laws were changed and registering a gun wasn’t such a time consuming bureaucratic nightmare. I’m not a cop but I don’t like it when people attack cops like they’re the ones that create the law. Just my two cents.
When you get some evidence of most cops being all for us peasants being as well armed as they are, please post it.
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When you get some evidence of most cops being all for us peasants being as well armed as they are, please post it.
I personally know countless individuals and it seems that many on this forum are better armed than the overwhelming majority of Law Enforcement Officers on this island.
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I personally know countless individuals and it seems that many on this forum are better armed than the overwhelming majority of Law Enforcement Officers on this island.
I can second this.
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I personally know countless individuals and it seems that many on this forum are better armed than the overwhelming majority of Law Enforcement Officers on this island.
Outside the home, range, hunting area, gun store, gunsmith, gun show, police station? I.e. "in public"?
I saw two LEOs in Walmart last week. They seemed to be the "only ones" openly carrying. Of course I have no way of knowing how many of those nonLEO citizens in Walmart were carrying concealed, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were fewer than two.
Since most violent crimes take place outside the home (and outside the range, hunting areas, gun stores, gunsmiths, gun shows and police stations), when we nonLEOs (aka "ordinary citizens") obey the law ("no guns/"stun guns"/etc. for you" where you are most likely to be a victim of attempted crime), we are effectively denied our best chance for self-defense. Not so LEOs.
"Better armed"? Maybe. Effectively denied legal use of those arms in the most likely self-defense scenarios? Definitely.
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Outside the home, range, hunting area, gun store, gunsmith, gun show, police station? I.e. "in public"?
I saw two LEOs in Walmart last week. They seemed to be the "only ones" openly carrying. Of course I have no way of knowing how many of those nonLEO citizens in Walmart were carrying concealed, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were fewer than two.
Since most violent crimes take place outside the home (and outside the range, hunting areas, gun stores, gunsmiths, gun shows and police stations), when we nonLEOs (aka "ordinary citizens") obey the law ("no guns/"stun guns"/etc. for you" where you are most likely to be a victim of attempted crime), we are effectively denied our best chance for self-defense. Not so LEOs.
"Better armed"? Maybe. Effectively denied legal use of those arms in the most likely self-defense scenarios? Definitely.
So are you saying that LEO's should not "openly" carry weapons? Or are you stating the citizens should be able to open carry also? I am sure I know the answer however there is a difference in how we make statements. Just look at what I quoted in my post just above. I am not sure how that users statement is anything but divisive and is far from constructive especially in regards to the second amendment issue. Are there those in LE who are anti? Sure, LE is just another cross section of society, however there are a lot of individuals in LE that are supportive of carry rights.
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So are you saying that LEO's should not "openly" carry weapons? Or are you stating the citizens should be able to open carry also? I am sure I know the answer however there is a difference in how we make statements. Just look at what I quoted in my post just above. I am not sure how that users statement is anything but divisive and is far from constructive especially in regards to the second amendment issue. Are there those in LE who are anti? Sure, LE is just another cross section of society, however there are a lot of individuals in LE that are supportive of carry rights.
1. Good guess, assuming you guessed right. Both the U. S. Constitution and the Hawaii state Constitution state that "the people" have "the right" to "keep and bear arms" without that right being "infringed". I believe that would include "citizens". "Bear" makes no sense solely restricted to inside the home. Thus, unless one is traveling directly to or from some kind of gun venue (thought the gun is even then required to be unloaded and in a closed container), a "citizen" is disarmed (not just from firearm carry, but "stun guns", chemical sprays greater than 1/2 oz. content, etc.), UNLESS that "citizen" is also law enforcement. Why? The citizen disarmament movement parrots the phrase "the only ones who should have guns are cops". Why? Because they are the "ONLY ONES" professional and trained well-enough to deserve to use them for self-defense of their own lives and the lives of others? That's a joke. A very bad joke. Watch this video of a DEA agent demonstrating gun safety to a classroom of children and stating "I'm the ONLY ONE in this room professional enough to carry (a Glock 40)." Within seconds he then shoots himself in the foot. He's the "only one" professional enough? There is nothing in the Constitutions even vaguely indicating that those intended to have the right to keep and bear arms are members of law enforcement, and that they are the ONLY ONES who have such a right. DEA Agent Shoots Himself in the Foot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7ufT_6Kgy0#)
2. Let me re-phrase robtmc's statement:
"When you get some evidence of most cops being all for us peasants being as well armed as they are and for us being allowed to carry those weapons in the manner (or even just concealed) and in the places they are, please post it."
Perhaps that wasn't his intent, but I've extended it to the relevant issue of CCW, and carry in general, which is denied to 100% of the citizens of this state who are not law enforcement.
3. There may be "a lot of individuals in LE that are supportive of carry rights.," but the relevant and significant fact is that the people in law enforcement who have a say in who gets to carry in Hawaii (the county chiefs of police) are 100% unanimous in their refusal to issue a CCW license to even one single person in the entire state (as least as far as any official statistics exist), and the (deliberately?) vague (and seemingly disingenuous) answers I have gotten when communicating about these issues with the Hawaii County Chief. This isn't a "may issue" state, it is a de facto "no issue" state. Why? Because the people in law enforcement whose sworn duty it is to uphold the Constitutions of the United States and Hawaii by allowing people to carry weapons outside the home purposefully violate their oath of office and deny every single applicant. Yeah, they are the "ONLY ONES".
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Sure, LE is just another cross section of society, however there are a lot of individuals in LE that are supportive of carry rights.
I was amazed that out of the three officers in the registration section one was supportive. The most out spoken one against guns simply stated that he doesn't believe Hawaii citizens should have any guns - PERIOD. The other officer was equally outspoken about the 2A for citizens and she was a former Marine. The third person who was in the block of instruction just followed the other SGTs lead and stated that yeah, citizens shouldn't have access to guns....
But off topic, this has nothing to do with the HPD's alleged possession of MRAPs. I couldn't afford one anyways - I'm waiting for Hawaiian Historic Arms Association to get one. Besides I don't think an MRAP would fit in our "new" re-striped, bike lanes.
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I was amazed that out of the three officers in the registration section one was supportive. The most out spoken one against guns simply stated that he doesn't believe Hawaii citizens should have any guns - PERIOD. The other officer was equally outspoken about the 2A for citizens and she was a former Marine. The third person who was in the block of instruction just followed the other SGTs lead and stated that yeah, citizens shouldn't have access to guns....
This is somewhat disturbing to me..... :-\ two out of three would be willing to violate your rights, if ordered. That's how I read this. :-[
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1. Good guess, assuming you guessed right. Both the U. S. Constitution and the Hawaii state Constitution state that "the people" have "the right" to "keep and bear arms" without that right being "infringed". I believe that would include "citizens". "Bear" makes no sense solely restricted to inside the home. Thus, unless one is traveling directly to or from some kind of gun venue (thought the gun is even then required to be unloaded and in a closed container), a "citizen" is disarmed (not just from firearm carry, but "stun guns", chemical sprays greater than 1/2 oz. content, etc.), UNLESS that "citizen" is also law enforcement. Why? The citizen disarmament movement parrots the phrase "the only ones who should have guns are cops". Why? Because they are the "ONLY ONES" professional and trained well-enough to deserve to use them for self-defense of their own lives and the lives of others? That's a joke. A very bad joke. Watch this video of a DEA agent demonstrating gun safety to a classroom of children and stating "I'm the ONLY ONE in this room professional enough to carry (a Glock 40)." Within seconds he then shoots himself in the foot. He's the "only one" professional enough? There is nothing in the Constitutions even vaguely indicating that those intended to have the right to keep and bear arms are members of law enforcement, and that they are the ONLY ONES who have such a right. DEA Agent Shoots Himself in the Foot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7ufT_6Kgy0#)
2. Let me re-phrase robtmc's statement:
"When you get some evidence of most cops being all for us peasants being as well armed as they are and for us being allowed to carry those weapons in the manner (or even just concealed) and in the places they are, please post it."
Perhaps that wasn't his intent, but I've extended it to the relevant issue of CCW, and carry in general, which is denied to 100% of the citizens of this state who are not law enforcement.
3. There may be "a lot of individuals in LE that are supportive of carry rights.," but the relevant and significant fact is that the people in law enforcement who have a say in who gets to carry in Hawaii (the county chiefs of police) are 100% unanimous in their refusal to issue a CCW license to even one single person in the entire state (as least as far as any official statistics exist), and the (deliberately?) vague (and seemingly disingenuous) answers I have gotten when communicating about these issues with the Hawaii County Chief. This isn't a "may issue" state, it is a de facto "no issue" state. Why? Because the people in law enforcement whose sworn duty it is to uphold the Constitutions of the United States and Hawaii by allowing people to carry weapons outside the home purposefully violate their oath of office and deny every single applicant. Yeah, they are the "ONLY ONES".
Your entire diatribe lumps everyone wearing a badge into the same category. The fact of the matter is no matter how righteous you or robtmc may seem to feel in your beliefs, the reality is that your statements are not what benefits the overall cause that you support. The extreme right is just as bad as the extreme left.
This is somewhat disturbing to me..... :-\ two out of three would be willing to violate your rights, if ordered. That's how I read this. :-[
No reason to be disturbed. Please remember that from a pure statistical standpoint, that lone sample is far too small to come to any conclusions. According to that lone encounter 33% of LE is pro 2a and 66% is not. What if by chance you happened to have 2 out of 3 pro 2a? Would that mean that 66% of LE is pro 2a and 33% is not. Results from small sample sizes are far from accurate.
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Your entire diatribe lumps everyone wearing a badge into the same category. The fact of the matter is no matter how righteous you or robtmc may seem to feel in your beliefs, the reality is that your statements are not what benefits the overall cause that you support. The extreme right is just as bad as the extreme left.
My comments ("diatribe" is your opinion and judgment, which of course you are entitled to, just don't pretend you're stating any facts) didn't do any lumping of any kind regarding "everyone". Please show me the statement(s) that say "everyone", or even directly imply "everyone". And your "diatribes" don't reveal your "righteousness" about your beliefs? What is your evidence that my statements "are not what benefits the overall cause that (I) support"? Or is that just your righteous opinion? You mean if I make statements of fact about the arbitrary and capricious, not to mention oath-of-office-violating 100% denials of applications by law-abiding Hawaii citizens for CCW licenses, that pointing out that fact somehow works against CCW implementation as prescribed by the Constitution(s), and/or Second Amendment rights in general? Will that kind of talk turn the county police chiefs against CCW? Or who, exactly? Back up your claim. Where is your research, or even polling? Or is it just another opinion of yours, stated by you as if it were a fact?
People being able to exercise their natural, civil, fundamental, individual, Constitutionally-guaranteed rights is not an issue of "left" nor "right". Please tell me how advocating for the full implementation of the Constitutional Amendments known as The Bill of Rights is extreme right or left. Which amendments do you believe ought to be legally allowed to be infringed, so as to avoid any kind of "extreme"? First? Second? Fourth? Fifth? Which?
No reason to be disturbed. Please remember that from a pure statistical standpoint, that lone sample is far too small to come to any conclusions. According to that lone encounter 33% of LE is pro 2a and 66% is not. What if by chance you happened to have 2 out of 3 pro 2a? Would that mean that 66% of LE is pro 2a and 33% is not. Results from small sample sizes are far from accurate.
You're the person that started making claims about numbers: "Sure, LE is just another cross section of society, however there are a lot of individuals in LE that are supportive of carry rights." "A lot"? "Supportive of carry rights"? Could you please be more specific about that number? Could you please provide us with the sources of your claims? How big was your sample (that you were able to come to YOUR conclusion)? How was the study or poll conducted? Where? When? How? By whom? Where was it published? What specific questions were asked?
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(http://i.imgur.com/ZppIAwo.jpg)
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Where's Tom_G and his call a spade a spade idea!!!!
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(http://www.adweek.com/files/imagecache/node-detail/news_article/holiday_inn_express.jpg)
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My comments ("diatribe" is your opinion and judgment, which of course you are entitled to, just don't pretend you're stating any facts) didn't do any lumping of any kind regarding "everyone". Please show me the statement(s) that say "everyone", or even directly imply "everyone". And your "diatribes" don't reveal your "righteousness" about your beliefs? What is your evidence that my statements "are not what benefits the overall cause that (I) support"? Or is that just your righteous opinion? You mean if I make statements of fact about the arbitrary and capricious, not to mention oath-of-office-violating 100% denials of applications by law-abiding Hawaii citizens for CCW licenses, that pointing out that fact somehow works against CCW implementation as prescribed by the Constitution(s), and/or Second Amendment rights in general? Will that kind of talk turn the county police chiefs against CCW? Or who, exactly? Back up your claim. Where is your research, or even polling? Or is it just another opinion of yours, stated by you as if it were a fact?
People being able to exercise their natural, civil, fundamental, individual, Constitutionally-guaranteed rights is not an issue of "left" nor "right". Please tell me how advocating for the full implementation of the Constitutional Amendments known as The Bill of Rights is extreme right or left. Which amendments do you believe ought to be legally allowed to be infringed, so as to avoid any kind of "extreme"? First? Second? Fourth? Fifth? Which?
You're the person that started making claims about numbers: "Sure, LE is just another cross section of society, however there are a lot of individuals in LE that are supportive of carry rights." "A lot"? "Supportive of carry rights"? Could you please be more specific about that number? Could you please provide us with the sources of your claims? How big was your sample (that you were able to come to YOUR conclusion)? How was the study or poll conducted? Where? When? How? By whom? Where was it published? What specific questions were asked?
Uhhh yea.
Everyone can see this for what it is. It would be pointless to continue.
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Uhhh yea.
Everyone can see this for what it is. It would be pointless to continue.
Uhhh yea, indeed. You wouldn't want to provide any data or facts or references to support you assertions. "Everyone" knows that your utterances are spoken from on high, and thus not subject to question. Please forgive my failure to recognize your Authority, and my consequent insubordination.
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Uhhh yea, indeed. You wouldn't want to provide any data or facts or references to support you assertions. "Everyone" knows that your utterances are spoken from on high, and thus not subject to question. Please forgive my failure to recognize your Authority, and my consequent insubordination.
Sad to see you resulting in making this personal. From the direction that your posts were headed this is exactly why I chose not to continue the discussion as I was pretty sure this is where you would have ended up anyway. You lump everyone into the same category and are unable to see the forest for the trees.
I will leave with this. The extreme lefts and extreme rights are the minority. Most lie somewhere in the middle area's either left or right on these topics, but many are still left sitting on the fence. The extreme rights are more subversive then helpful to the 2A cause. They push those in the "grey area", the undecideds, who are sitting on the fence, right off to the other side. Alienating those who share similar beliefs on certain issues, because of personal bias, political bias or affiliation, (ya know lumping everyone into the same category) is also not helpful.
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HPD no moa MRAPs.Pau. Done. LOCK!
-- huge ass picture removed. - Funtimes.
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Uhhh yea.
Everyone can see this for what it is. It would be pointless to continue.
I agree.