2aHawaii
General Topics => Off Topic => Topic started by: Dregs on July 24, 2011, 08:21:37 PM
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http://www.staradvertiser.com/business/20110724_Sun_screening.html (http://www.staradvertiser.com/business/20110724_Sun_screening.html)
Am I reading this right...? When the number of solar panels hit a certain percentage of use in the island, then people cannot get solar panels for their home, because then the utility company won't get their cut? So an "environmental study", which can cost thousands of dollars, will be required?
I'm failing to see any logic in the reason behind it.
"The purpose of the study is to determine whether the solar project can be safely hooked up without adversely affecting other customers on the circuit. "
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As far as I understand power grids have to be balanced, so too many inputs in one area can have some unwanted consequences. The studies sound ridiculously expensive, but there is always the option of off-grid systems with a battery array. No tax credit or cash back for putting money on the grid, but then again you can slowly build the system so that it supplements HECO power and at least your fridge won't go out during the next event.
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That's correct, Hvy. It sort of makes sense. HECO's got a big generator(s), and they regulate the output to match demand. So while the sun's out, all the PV systems humming right along, and the main power station is throttled back. Then, when the clouds come out/sun goes down, HECO has to spin up their generators to crank out more electricity in order to make up for the electricity that's not being generated by all the PV systems. If there's only a small number of PV systems, it's not a big deal; but if, say, half of the electicity was being generated by PV's, it ends up making large fluctuations in the amount of power that's needed from HECO. That makes the grid unstable, so before you go over 15%, you have to do a study to make sure that your PV system isn't going to make problems.
Naturally, no one is required to buy electricity from HECO. If you replaced all your shingles with PV cells, and stuffed your attic full of batteries, nobody could say 'boo' to you about it.
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Oh. Jeez. Ok.
From things I've read in the past, I thought houses that use solar panels would use it to power specific things, like a water heater on a timer, or a fridge, or a toster etc, and store the rest of the energy for cloudy days. I had no idea not having batteries to store surplus energy was the norm O_o.
Thanks for helping me understand there.
So instead of powering a specific thing, the pv panels are feeding electricity to the entire house. If it's cloudy, then the panels are no longer feeding electricity, so it draws more from the grid.
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Oh. Jeez. Ok.
From things I've read in the past, I thought houses that use solar panels would use it to power specific things, like a water heater on a timer, or a fridge, or a toster etc, and store the rest of the energy for cloudy days. I had no idea not having batteries to store surplus energy was the norm O_o.
Thanks for helping me understand there.
So instead of powering a specific thing, the pv panels are feeding electricity to the entire house. If it's cloudy, then the panels are no longer feeding electricity, so it draws more from the grid.
You can probably set it up to power one thing, but when i was looking into it, the norm seemed to be to power your whole house's electrical system from the panels. Additionally, you can sometimes get HECO to pay you, instead of the other way around, because if your setup is making X amount of electricity, but not using it all, it backflows out into the grid and feeds other peoples' houses. I guess sometimes you can go out and look and your electric meter will be spinning backwards; which would be pretty cool, if you ask me. But I think that plays into their concerns with too many systems, as well. Meh. I looked into it a little bit, but it's still pretty spendy, even with gov't rebates, and takes about seven to ten years to pay for itself, so I opted to remain a helpless victim of wind, rain, tsunamis, and HECO strikes. lol.
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I looked into it a little bit, but it's still pretty spendy, even with gov't rebates, and takes about seven to ten years to pay for itself
I did the same thing, and it wasn't worth the penny for me to do it, at this time anyway. Hopefully it'll get more affordable.
Additionally, you can sometimes get HECO to pay you, instead of the other way around,
From what I researched, HECO will always have to be paid no matter how much power is produced at your house. They have a 'hookup fee' that is paid for the 'privilege' of being hooked up to their grid. :P
I doubt they would give up their monopoly and pay you for any surplus power that may be generated by your house.
Another reason I did not want to do the PV thing at this time.
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This is nothing but total crap, and a little more then HECO getting 'theirs' from the people they know. This is Hawaii at it's finest....
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"They have a 'hookup fee' that is paid for the 'privilege' of being hooked up to their grid."'
I suspect, but do not know for sure, that the "hookup fee" is for safety reasons. There has to be a mechanism to automatically disconnect your home generating system, whatever it is (wind, solar, internal combustion engine backup generator) from the lines if the utility power goes out and you're still generating but connected to the grid.
This, so their line workers don't get hit by your voltage while they're trying to repair the lines. Don't forget: on your side of the line transformers, the voltage is 110/220. But on their side of the transformers the voltage may be 440/880 or higher. They can check that there's no voltage on the lines they're working on, but then all of a sudden your system kicks in (or you turn it on) and there's lethal voltage on the lines they're working on.
The fee is probably to inspect and check out that automatic system.
I don't know about HI's libraries, but you might check: Our library (Jefferson County CO) has those plug-in metering devices where you plug the thing into the wall socket, and plug your appliance into the "thing" to monitor the appliance's consumption. They're in such demand here that there's a waiting ("on call") list for them.
When I first put one on call, their were like 70 people ahead of me on the list. They finally broke down and got some more to lend out (just like a book --you present your library card and check it out) but by then I discovered that Radio Shack sells a similar device for about $20 and got tired of waiting for the library one and bought one from RS. The only thing the RS one doesn't do is allow you to plug into your computer for permanent data logging.
Terry, 230RN
REF:
Radio Shack catalog numbers 220--0130 (the one I got) and 220-0129.
There are some slight differences between the two. They're called the "Kill-A-Watt" electricity usage monitors. Cutesy name, hah? Similar devices may be available elsewhere.
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i'm having pv installed on my house. considering the state of our federal and state financing, i think the solar credits may eventually go away. there was already a bill this past year to reduce/remove the state's credit. it is also correct that they are limiting the amount of pv installations. they say there are certain areas like manoa and kailua that are reaching capacity. my understanding is that the hook up fee is like a maintenance fee. it's something like $16. you can install batteries, but it's like buying a prius. every so many years you have to replace the batteries, which is the big bucks of the system.
i think it's a good investment, as long as you plan to stay in your house for a long time. it's like anything else where you keep paying someone for a service, when you have the option of paying yourself.... you should do it. just like buying a house, it's an investment. when it comes time to rent or sell our place, it will become more appealing.
my main reason for getting it, my husband loves his ac. he has tons of tools that suck up electricity and i love to bake. my bill was 340 last month. i don't think my installation will cover all of that, but at least some of that money will go into my house's value instead of to HECO.
all i can say is that it's a better investment that car parts and random toys.
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i'm having pv installed on my house. considering the state of our federal and state financing, i think the solar credits may eventually go away. there was already a bill this past year to reduce/remove the state's credit. it is also correct that they are limiting the amount of pv installations. they say there are certain areas like manoa and kailua that are reaching capacity. my understanding is that the hook up fee is like a maintenance fee. it's something like $16. you can install batteries, but it's like buying a prius. every so many years you have to replace the batteries, which is the big bucks of the system.
i think it's a good investment, as long as you plan to stay in your house for a long time. it's like anything else where you keep paying someone for a service, when you have the option of paying yourself.... you should do it. just like buying a house, it's an investment. when it comes time to rent or sell our place, it will become more appealing.
my main reason for getting it, my husband loves his ac. he has tons of tools that suck up electricity and i love to bake. my bill was 340 last month. i don't think my installation will cover all of that, but at least some of that money will go into my house's value instead of to HECO.
all i can say is that it's a better investment that car parts and random toys.
But... but... that could have been more firearms =D :shake:
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the ironic part is that along those lines, my husband has convinced me to build a 2nd garage. that will be the project after we pay off the pv. so now i'm getting scolding for buying random crap...
at least my stuff doesn't cost as much as his. ::)
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the ironic part is that along those lines, my husband has convinced me to build a 2nd garage. that will be the project after we pay off the pv. so now i'm getting scolding for buying random crap...
at least my stuff doesn't cost as much as his. ::)
Hah! That is what my wife and I say to each other. I tell her she buys 100 small things at 5 bucks, and I only buy 1 thing at 500 :P.
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Drive-by link related to this subject of photovoltaic generation:
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=30864.new#new (http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=30864.new#new)
The comments following the original post, especially by birdman, are very enlightening.
Terry, 230RN
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we got our solar up this week. it's been nice any sunny the last couple days. one day we almost got 30kwh. unfortunately i think we still use more than that.
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x218/kahokulani50/aug25.jpg)
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we got our solar up this week. it's been nice any sunny the last couple days. one day we almost got 30kwh. unfortunately i think we still use more than that.
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x218/kahokulani50/aug25.jpg)
Wow that's dang good. 30 Kwh would be twice our average usage per day for me and the wife.
In a perfect world, if I had a system like yours, they'd have to pay me! heh ::)
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we got our solar up this week. it's been nice any sunny the last couple days. one day we almost got 30kwh. unfortunately i think we still use more than that.
Do you know how many panels you put up and what each panel is rated at?
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we got our solar up this week. it's been nice any sunny the last couple days. one day we almost got 30kwh. unfortunately i think we still use more than that.
Do you know how many panels you put up and what each panel is rated at?
each panel is 320w and we have 16. it's doing a little more than it should be, but i imagine during the winter months it will produce less because the change in sun light hours.
Wow that's dang good. 30 Kwh would be twice our average usage per day for me and the wife.
In a perfect world, if I had a system like yours, they'd have to pay me! heh ::)
i've been trying to convince the husband to not use the central ac as much, but i don't think that's going to change any time soon. ::)
what's interesting is within the last couple months i've met a lot of older couples that have had it on their houses for a long time. they absolutely love it, especially with the rising cost of power. all of them have said it was the best investment that they made.
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I am in the Solar Industry. HECO is full of it. They will lose a lot of $$ if everyone did Solar. What they tell/show you is only to look good as a business. Unfortunately we still need them because Eletrical Storage is non-exsistant because batteries are still too inefficient and Wind Turbines have to rely on having wind. I have been working on making a self sufficient sub division project for 2 years now. Supplying power to 200 homes is really a pain when you have limited back up. A Mini Nuclear plant would be nice!
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We were thinking of going solar, just didnt have enough money at the time to do it. Wish we had though, would have been almost paid its self off by now. If you do go solar though, make sure you install a battery bank as well. What a lot of people dont know is that even if you have solar and the grid crashes for any reason HECO still cuts your power. They need to kill the lines and make it dead before they can work on it. If your panels are still juiced they feeding power into the lines. With a battery bank even if the grid gets cut you have energy "stocked".
On a side note, does anyone know what kind of batteries you need? It was under my impression that as long as its deep cycle batteries it would work. Maybe it depends on voltage and amperage and how hig of a charge the batteries can take
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I am in the Solar Industry. HECO is full of it. They will lose a lot of $$ if everyone did Solar. What they tell/show you is only to look good as a business. Unfortunately we still need them because Eletrical Storage is non-exsistant because batteries are still too inefficient and Wind Turbines have to rely on having wind. I have been working on making a self sufficient sub division project for 2 years now. Supplying power to 200 homes is really a pain when you have limited back up. A Mini Nuclear plant would be nice!
I think part of that challenge that makes it a real pain is the fact that people have soooo many "accessories" in life they are not willing to give up. If i could, i would live off the grid. Solar and rain catchment. Instead of increasing the supply of energy you need, decrease demand. My opinion at least.
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Deep cycle is the best. A lot of people are buying recycled golf cart batteries 6 volt each. I have a customer on the big island who uses car batteries. He gets them from the junk yards for $15 each. Just need to match the amps on the batteries.
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I am in the Solar Industry. HECO is full of it. They will lose a lot of $$ if everyone did Solar. What they tell/show you is only to look good as a business. Unfortunately we still need them because Eletrical Storage is non-exsistant because batteries are still too inefficient and Wind Turbines have to rely on having wind. I have been working on making a self sufficient sub division project for 2 years now. Supplying power to 200 homes is really a pain when you have limited back up. A Mini Nuclear plant would be nice!
How about 23 of them :) they are in the water in the center of our island.
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I am in the Solar Industry. HECO is full of it. They will lose a lot of $$ if everyone did Solar. What they tell/show you is only to look good as a business. Unfortunately we still need them because Eletrical Storage is non-exsistant because batteries are still too inefficient and Wind Turbines have to rely on having wind. I have been working on making a self sufficient sub division project for 2 years now. Supplying power to 200 homes is really a pain when you have limited back up. A Mini Nuclear plant would be nice!
How about 23 of them :) they are in the water in the center of our island.
Hahah...only a few of us are going to get your comment.
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u guys talking about submarines/carriers?
here's my first month of solar. its been pretty interesting, lately we've met a couple of older ppl that have had solar for a long time. they love it.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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mokeanne, nice results. Seems like your bill went down a bunch but HECO wont let you off that easy.
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wow thanks for sharing that bill
Just saw a news report that people have been "sold" on false advertising on multiple circuit systems and filing for more tax credits than they should get. Hope you weren't one of those customers. According to the news, no one is supposed to get more than $5,000 in tax credits regardless of how many circuits you have installed.
I still think you come out ahead based on what i've seen so far.
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Mokeanne,
That energy production is outstanding!
Looking at my last bill, if that system was on my roof I would only have to pay HECO <1 KWH and hook up fees, avg per month.
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you can also thank the Public Utility Commission for the increase of costs:
What: Sept 30, the PUC turned down HECO's proposed contract to buy locally grown biodiesel from Aina Koa Pono
Why: The PUC was concerned about the potential high cost to customers.
What’s next: It 's too soon to know what AKP will do. However, using biofuel in HECO power plants absolutely still makes sense.
We’ve signed several other biofuel contracts, each with its own pricing formula, and they’ll be filed with the PUC this year for their consideration.
Read on for more details............
As you may have heard, yesterday the Public Utilities Commission issued a decision turning down our proposed contract to buy biodiesel from Aina Koa Pono, citing concerns about the potential high cost. AKP is a local start-up that wants to grow crops in Ka'u on Hawaii Island to make biodiesel for Keahole Power Plant and possibly later for our other power plants. It's the first of four local biofuel contracts we've signed to date.
The decision is very disappointing. But our basic strategy to switch to using renewable biofuels in our fossil-fueled units still makes sense. In its decision, the PUC did restate its support for locally grown and processed biofuels to use in existing fossil-fired generating units.
You may be asked why we are continuing to pursue using biofuels. Here’s why:
· It can help stabilize customer bills: Using biofuels at prices based on long-term contracts and more stable rates can be a good hedge against volatile oil prices. The current unpredictability of electricity prices based on oil costs is a huge source of frustration for our customers and damaging to our economy.
· It’s a way to get “green†existing firm generation. As we add more solar, wind and other variable renewable energy sources, we also need firm power available on demand. Biofuels are also a bridge to a future with other firm renewables like geothermal or OTEC.
· It can help nurture local agriculture. That takes big investments by landowners and biofuel developers. Creating a market for locally grown energy will help them get financing to make those investments. We’ll avoid sending millions of dollars that currently flow out of our state to buy oil. Instead that money can stay here benefiting Hawaii’s economy.
· It’s good for energy security and the environment. Our supply of local energy can not be cut off like the oil that arrives by tanker every week. Our environment benefits too. Biofuels result in significantly lower sulfur dioxide and other air emissions.
Bottom line, using biofuels – along with many other renewable energy sources – can provide local, more stably priced energy that's good for Hawaii today and the Hawaii of our kids tomorrow.
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Houdni,
It sounds like HECO wants to switch to biofuels to have higher but more stable prices. Is that the gist of it?
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Houdni, do you have any actual numbers you can share with us? I know its asking a lot and might be breach of contract or something.