2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: ren on February 13, 2015, 08:55:35 PM
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http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf (http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf)
IV. PREVIOUS EXEMPTIONS
As explained above, in 1986, ATF held that 5.56mm projectiles in SS109 and M855 cartridges were exempt. Further, in 1992, ATF held that 30-06 M2AP cartridges were also exempt. In each case, ATF found that, “it is well documented” that the respective ammunition “has been recognized as being suitable for target shooting with rifles due to its accuracy.” These cartridges were originally produced for the military and were only later adopted by civilians for sporting purposes. When assembled into a complete cartridge, the projectiles were exempt, but ATF did not exempt the projectiles before the cartridges were assembled.
Applying the sporting purposes framework set-forth above, the 5.56mm projectile that ATF exempted in 1986 does not qualify for an exemption because that projectile when loaded into SS109 and M855 cartridges may be used in a handgun other than a single-shot handgun. Specifically, 5.56mm projectiles loaded into the SS109 and M855 cartridges are commonly used in both “AR-type” rifles and “AR-type” handguns. The AR platform is the semi-automatic version of the M16 machinegun originally designed for and used by the military. The AR-based handguns and rifles utilize the same magazines and share identical receivers. These AR-type handguns were not commercially available when the armor piercing ammunition exemption was granted in 1986. To ensure consistency, upon final implementation of the sporting purpose framework outlined above, ATF must withdraw the exemptions for 5.56 mm “green tip” ammunition, including both the SS109 and M855 cartridges.7
ATF recognizes that this ammunition is widely available to the public. Because it is legally permissible to possess armor piercing ammunition under current law, withdrawing the exemption will not place individuals in criminal possession of armor piercing ammunition. However, with few exceptions, manufacturers will be unable to produce such armor piercing ammunition, importers will be unable to import such ammunition, and manufacturers and importers will be prohibited from selling or distributing the ammunition. ATF is specifically soliciting comments on how it can best implement withdrawal of this exemption while minimizing disruption to the ammunition and firearm industry and maximizing officer safety.
Under the proposed framework, the exemption for 30-06 M2AP cartridges would continue because ATF is not aware of any multi-shot handguns available in the ordinary channels of commerce that currently accept such ammunition.
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race you all to the gun stores
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So the c*nt wasn't satified by the title, "best gun salesman of all time"... Now he wants "best ammo salesman"...
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PaIIChRMBw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PaIIChRMBw)
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Since when is green tip "armor piercing."
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Since when is green tip "armor piercing."
Unfortunately bullets don't need to be able to pierce armor to be classified "armor piercing" by the ATF. Like back in the day when black talon bullets (teflon coated hollow points that pierce anything that a regular hp won't) made the news and were quickly banned by the ATF based on nothing more than idiot liberal news morons and fake public hysteria.
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I want to get my hands on some AP Teflon coated ammo, like the ones that zipped through a bulldozer blade in lethal weapon.
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Sign the petition to stop the ban: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition/XrvVh1cj
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Sign the petition to stop the ban: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition/XrvVh1cj
Also email the atf since they are taking opinions. Link is floating around the net.
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Sign the petition to stop the ban: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition/XrvVh1cj
signed
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and the panic for junk ammo begins
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1718622_IN_STOCK_M855_thread_.html (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1718622_IN_STOCK_M855_thread_.html)
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Signed. I also sent an e-mail to the BATFE telling them what I thought on their interpretation of the law.
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Signed the petition...
The petition focuses on the particulars of the regulation, but the real problem is that these sorts of regulations exist in the first place. The way it's written, a bullet that's legal and available today could be made illegal tomorrow simply by a handgun becoming available that can chamber that round. That makes it more dangerous how?
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Sign the petition to stop the ban: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition/XrvVh1cj
Does anyone truly think Obola gives a damn what gun owners think, or that he would support anything but further erosion of the 2A?
I mean, come on, petitioning "whitehouse.gov" to restore what should not have been tampered with to begin with?
You know Obola/Holder is only doing this as part of their agenda, why would they backtrack?
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Does anyone truly think Obola gives a damn what gun owners think, or that he would support anything but further erosion of the 2A?
I mean, come on, petitioning "whitehouse.gov" to restore what should not have been tampered with to begin with?
You know Obola/Holder is only doing this as part of their agenda, why would they backtrack?
This "why fight, we're already beat" attitude is a sad representation of what the people have become.
I signed the petition and will sign every single petition that comes down the pike, to fight for our gun rights.
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Signed.
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This "why fight, we're already beat" attitude is a sad representation of what the people have become..
I am more of a "Impeach the Kenyan POS" and make sure no other traitorous creep like him ever gets elected. They have too much power, and as we see here, he feels and it looks like, he can do what he wants without repercussion.
No illegal alien amnesty, voter ID now! Bring back the vote to Americans and make my vote mean something, as I firmly believe it has not for several election cycles now.
Sternly worded petitions do nothing, just as Obola's sternly worded letters do not impress the Iranians or other muzzies. Only physical action will impress.
He is determined to do as much damage as possible in the next year and a half, this is likely just the beginning.
My rage as always is directed at those that voted for him and/or enabled voter fraud and created this mess.
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signed
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signed
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https://www.youtube.com/embed/OAzjDZCXHzI (https://www.youtube.com/embed/OAzjDZCXHzI)
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https://www.youtube.com/embed/OAzjDZCXHzI (https://www.youtube.com/embed/OAzjDZCXHzI)
(http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/alien02.jpg)
I wish that was the case. I think its more likely the anti freedom leaders of the BATFE want to take away our rights by raising the price of gun ownership. They want to shrink our influence and marginalize us so they can take our guns away with the support of the masses.
Before we went into Afghanistan in 2001, you could buy a case of m855 for around $80. Imagine how much ammo we would buy if prices dropped that low. They don't want that to happen.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/us/move-to-ban-a-bullet-adds-to-its-appeal.html?_r=2 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/us/move-to-ban-a-bullet-adds-to-its-appeal.html?_r=2)
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Updated info.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/28/lawmakers-wont-be-silenced-over-obama-administration-proposed-ammo-ban/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/28/lawmakers-wont-be-silenced-over-obama-administration-proposed-ammo-ban/)
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and the panic for junk ammo begins
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1718622_IN_STOCK_M855_thread_.html (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1718622_IN_STOCK_M855_thread_.html)
yeah
http://www.infowars.com/ar-15-bullet-sales-surge-after-atf-ban-announcement/ (http://www.infowars.com/ar-15-bullet-sales-surge-after-atf-ban-announcement/)
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Hmmm, normally I might call this thing a back door way to restrict rights but technically the way the law is written they are following the law I think.
Do any local gun shops even carry this ammo?
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Hmmm, normally I might call this thing a back door way to restrict rights but technically the way the law is written they are following the law I think.
Do any local gun shops even carry this ammo?
(http://i.imgur.com/o7XKD7N.png)
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http://savem855.com/ (http://savem855.com/)
If you want to do more than sign a petition.
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236 members of Congress sent a signed letter to the ATF telling them their interpretation of the ban on armor piercing ammo is "preposterous."
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/03/04/the-one-word-dozens-of-house-members-are-using-to-describe-obamas-proposed-ammo-ban/ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/03/04/the-one-word-dozens-of-house-members-are-using-to-describe-obamas-proposed-ammo-ban/)
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236 members of Congress sent a signed letter to the ATF telling them their interpretation of the ban on armor piercing ammo is "preposterous."
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/03/04/the-one-word-dozens-of-house-members-are-using-to-describe-obamas-proposed-ammo-ban/ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/03/04/the-one-word-dozens-of-house-members-are-using-to-describe-obamas-proposed-ammo-ban/)
I note that our illustrious "representatives" Mr. Takai's and Ms. Gabbard's names seem to be missing from the list. Perhaps a phone call questioning their position supporting the ban and an adamant statement opposing their support?
Gabbard 202 225-4906 808 538-0233 (My bad: earlier D.C. phone number was actually the FAX number)
Takai 202 225-2726 808 541-2570
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I just spent about $4 on postage on mailing letters to Gabbard, Schatz, Hirono and the BATF. Hopefully the $5 will be worth it.
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I just spent about $4 on postage on mailing letters to Gabbard, Schatz, Hirono and the BATF. Hopefully the $5 will be worth it.
You can FAX your letter for free here: http://faxzero.com/fax_congress.php (http://faxzero.com/fax_congress.php)
I'm not sure if or how they "weight" emails vs. phone calls vs. FAXes vs. snail mail... but anything at least lets them know someone is watching.
That is the House page, at the very bottom of the page is the highlighted link for the Senate page. My .doc format wouldn't work, so I had to convert them into .pdf format and the site had no problem sending those. Also, all my long distance is included in the monthly cost of my phone service, so calling costs me nothing, except the exasperation of trying to explain to some staff member what I'm talking about as they are often clueless.
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You can FAX your letter for free here: http://faxzero.com/fax_congress.php (http://faxzero.com/fax_congress.php)
I'm not sure if or how they "weight" emails vs. phone calls vs. FAXes vs. snail mail... but anything at least lets them know someone is watching.
That is the House page, at the very bottom of the page is the highlighted link for the Senate page. My .doc format wouldn't work, so I had to convert them into .pdf format and the site had no problem sending those. Also, all my long distance is included in the monthly cost of my phone service, so calling costs me nothing, except the exasperation of trying to explain to some staff member what I'm talking about as they are often clueless.
Mahalos for the link. I will be sure to use it later.
Each letter was the same 17 pages about this ammo ban issue. To think someone had to read through 17 pages. Then whip up some generic reply and mail it back to me as I requested a reply with their stance on the issue. I also noted I will share/quote the reply to likeminded people.
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EXCLUSIVE: Common AR-15 Green Tip Ammunition Already Banned in New ATF Regulation Guide
On Friday February 13 at 4:00 pm, the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms released a proposal to ban commonly used M855 "green tip" AR-15
ammunition under the guise of law enforcement safety. The same day the proposal was released, on a Friday of a three day holiday weekend, ATF opened up a
shortened 30-day period for the public to submit comments about the new regulation.
But it turns out, ATF has been working on a ban of AR-15 "green-tip" ammunition for quite some time and has already issued the ban in its new, 2014 Regulation
Guide. For reference, ATF Regulation Guides come out approximately every ten years.
When you take a look at the 2005 ATF Regulation Guide, you'll see an exemption for AR-15 "green-tip" ammunition, which means it exempted from the definition
of "armor piercing" and therefore is legal on the federal level.
When you look at the last page of the new, most recent ATF 2014 Regulation Guide, which was published in January,
there is no longer an exemption for AR-15 "green-tip" ammunition.
ATF changed the law unilaterally, didn't tell anyone about it and has now put up a bogus comment period that means nothing. Because of these actions,
ATF and the White House have not only failed to follow the Administrative Procedure Act, but has gone around Congress to violate the Second Amendment rights of Americans.
So, what' next? ATF is going to have to explain why the change was made under the radar and will also have to explain what this means for people in possession
of "green-tip" ammunition after January 2015 when the new ATF Regulation Guide was published with the exemption missing. Is there no grandfathering period
for possession? When will manufactures be forced to stop producing? What does this mean for buyers and sellers? States are also going to have to find a way to
implement these regulations and define compliance under separate state ammunition possession laws.
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761 (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761)
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"No one is trying to take your guns away." Just the ammo.
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Given the fact the ATF guides currently list Green Tip ammo as illegal armor piercing rounds, anyone selling, possessing, or manufacturing the ammo in the last 2 months is automatically guilty of a felony.
Good thing the permit application I signed this week requires I be indicted, waived indictment for, or convicted of a felony before answering "YES"! :geekdanc:
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This retroactive understanding of the law has just made felons out of probably hundreds of thousands of legal, law abiding gun owners. What kind of fucking banana republic law is this shit?!
I hope every single one of you Obama sycophantic ass sucking voters get yours in karmic payback for years to come. It's clowns like YOU that has allowed this lawless, dictatorial, Marxist thug the free rein in shredding the constitution, i.e., the Second Amendment and the Separation of Powers Clause.
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So, are any stores still going to sell them here? I'm sure OGC must've put in a restocking order prior to all this bullshit, right?
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I emailed the Pavlich story to my LGS a few hours ago and he responded by saying he didn't believe possession would be illegal, as per previous bans of ammo, just the sale, after whatever the effective date is/was/will be. The "regulations", and the process for creating and implementing them, seem vague enough that they can pretty much not only make up any regulation they choose, but then also implement and enforce it whenever and however they choose. Again, governing with the consent of the governed?
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If it's just the selling being illegal, then would that encompass private sales between individuals after the ban date? I don't see how selling your OWN property could be illegal.
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If it's just the selling being illegal, then would that encompass private sales between individuals after the ban date? I don't see how selling your OWN property could be illegal.
I asked the LGS owner about that and "gifting" and bringing material in in luggage from out of country, etc. Haven't heard back yet (not that he is an authority on the subject, but likely no one is).
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EXCLUSIVE: Common AR-15 Green Tip Ammunition Already Banned in New ATF Regulation Guide
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761 (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761)
I was reading the article and it seems the ATF defines the round by the paint color on the tip.....so what if manufacturers didn't put the green paint on. "Well you said M855 has green paint on the tip, and these rounds here don't have green paint so therefore they're legal. Suck it Trabeck!" :rofl: I'm no lawyer but if the ATF "banned" the round by not exempting it on it's 2014 guide, then wouldn't that make anyone who bought that particular round in 2014 a "criminal"? I"m pretty sure there's something in law that says you can't pass a law which retroactively makes someone a criminal.
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I was reading the article and it seems the ATF defines the round by the paint color on the tip.....so what if manufacturers didn't put the green paint on. "Well you said M855 has green paint on the tip, and these rounds here don't have green paint so therefore they're legal. Suck it Trabeck!" :rofl: I'm no lawyer but if the ATF "banned" the round by not exempting it on it's 2014 guide, then wouldn't that make anyone who bought that particular round in 2014 a "criminal"? I"m pretty sure there's something in law that says you can't pass a law which retroactively makes someone a criminal.
At the end of the article Pavlich acknowledges that she originally wrote "2014" when she should have written "2015", and that the article has since been corrected. The article hadn't been corrected when you or I read it, so she'll need to issue another correction about the incorrect originally asserted correction.
It's (the lack of an exemption) already published in the 2015 guide. People just have to hope that whatever arbitrary and capricious interpretation and enforcement BATFE ends up making, that they don't try to arrest the millions of people who possess (and/or purchased after January 1, 2015) these rounds. Because if they do, our taxes are going to skyrocket to prosecute and keep all those people in prison... oh, wait, we'll all be in prison, so I guess we won't have to worry about higher taxes... :crazy:
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Apparently m855 is now banned.. Seen this from gun saves lives Facebook post, I'm pretty sure the news source is reliable from other things I've read on controversialtimes.com
http://controversialtimes.com/news/report-atf-and-obama-admin-have-already-banned-popular-ar-15-round-m855-green-tip/ (http://controversialtimes.com/news/report-atf-and-obama-admin-have-already-banned-popular-ar-15-round-m855-green-tip/)
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This issue has me confused... The applicable federal law says:
"(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile."
It appears to me that the projectile in M855 is not "... constructed entirely...from... tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium" because the projectile is combination of lead and steel. It is also not "a full jacketed projectile...whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile" (although I base that on looking at the thickness of the jacket compared to the mass of lead and steel inside the jacket; I haven't weighed one).
Since it doesn't meet either criterion, the "sporting use" exemption need not apply. So it appears to me that the ATF removed a specific exemption for a round that never required one in the first place... How does that make it illegal? Has the ATF weighed in directly and said that M855 is now illegal? ???
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This issue has me confused... The applicable federal law says:
"(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile."
It appears to me that the projectile in M855 is not "... constructed entirely...from... tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium" because the projectile is combination of lead and steel. It is also not "a full jacketed projectile...whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile" (although I base that on looking at the thickness of the jacket compared to the mass of lead and steel inside the jacket; I haven't weighed one).
Since it doesn't meet either criterion, the "sporting use" exemption need not apply. So it appears to me that the ATF removed a specific exemption for a round that never required one in the first place... How does that make it illegal? Has the ATF weighed in directly and said that M855 is now illegal? ???
If you think that's confusing, you gotta read this....http://controversialtimes.com/news/breaking-atf-issues-statement-saying-paperwork-showing-m855-banned-was-publishing-error/ (http://controversialtimes.com/news/breaking-atf-issues-statement-saying-paperwork-showing-m855-banned-was-publishing-error/)
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If you think that's confusing, you gotta read this....http://controversialtimes.com/news/breaking-atf-issues-statement-saying-paperwork-showing-m855-banned-was-publishing-error/ (http://controversialtimes.com/news/breaking-atf-issues-statement-saying-paperwork-showing-m855-banned-was-publishing-error/)
Three things:
1) Huh? ???
2) I still don't see what part of the definition of "armor piercing" applies to M855, so even if they don't publish that specific exemption, I don't think it would be illegal...? ???
3) I wonder how the people who paid ridiculous prices for boxes of M855 are going to feel? :wacko:
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Three things:
1) Huh? ???
2) I still don't see what part of the definition of "armor piercing" applies to M855, so even if they don't publish that specific exemption, I don't think it would be illegal...? ???
3) I wonder how the people who paid ridiculous prices for boxes of M855 are going to feel? :wacko:
Apparently this whole situation was caused by a clerical/publishing error. An ooopsie our bad on the ATF''s part
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Apparently this whole situation was caused by a clerical/publishing error. An ooopsie our bad on the ATF''s part
And Fast and Furious never happened!
The ATF is an arm of the DOJ. They are taking the heat for another one of Holder's attempted end runs around the Constitution!
If a journalist had not followed up and done her research, they would have never caught this supposed "printing error." Quickly correcting and posting the new PDF version is just an attempt to avoid the consequences of their obviously illegal acts.
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One week left to submit comments to the BATFE on their "Framework" for banning M855 as "protective-vest-piercing handgun ammunition".
Email address:
APAComments@ATF.gov
Sample possible comment:
BATFE,
Singling out this particular ammunition is irrational, illogical and a deceptive, deceitful attempt on the part of BATFE to criminalize law-abiding American citizens who are no threat whatsoever to law enforcement officers.
The letter from the members of Congress to BATFE concisely outlined the errors in the BATFE's "Framework" statement.
Stop this absurdity now. Either that, or issue an honest statement and "Framework" that bans ALL ammunition capable of being fired in any rifle, which is ammunition capable of penetrating a protective vest.
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http://www.nssfblog.com/atf-to-not-move-forward-with-5-56-m855-ammo-ban-at-this-time/ (http://www.nssfblog.com/atf-to-not-move-forward-with-5-56-m855-ammo-ban-at-this-time/)
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ATF shelves controversial bullet ban proposal
Same story, different outlet http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03/10/atf-shelves-controversial-bullet-ban-proposal/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03/10/atf-shelves-controversial-bullet-ban-proposal/)
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Wow. I guess my e-mail did make a difference this time.
We just have to watch these clowns, because they'll try it again when they think no one is looking.
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I'm including this email from GOA because it stresses that this may only be a temporary halt to the attempt to ban the ammo. The first article above implies that it's all over, a done deal, and the second Fox News article mentions, but does not stress that this halt to the "framework" is merely temporary, and no final decision has been made. Given the past 6 years of this administration, I'd suspect that we haven't seen the end of various backdoor attempts to subvert the Second Amendment... and I wouldn't be surprised to see some front door attempts as well.
ATF Makes a “Tactical Retreat” in the Face of Overwhelming Opposition to its Ammo Ban
“If anyone needed any more proof that [the ATF] has become a politicized repository of liberal anti-gun hacks, your proposed effort to effectively ban AR-15's by illegally banning AR-15 ammunition has cleared up any doubt.” -- GOA Comments that were officially submitted to ATF
In a stunning new development, the ATF has announced today that it will “formally delay” the implementation of its ammo ban, in the face of 80,000 comments which were overwhelmingly negative.
Last month, Obama’s ATF had proposed a rule to effectively ban AR-15's by banning the common AR-15 “green tip” ammunition.
Supposedly, gun owners had until March 16 to send comments to ATF. But then, lo and behold, the AR-15 ammunition in question turned up (last week) on an ATF list of ammunition indicating that it had ALREADY BEEN BANNED. Oops!
The ATF claimed this was a “publishing error.” But the only “error” the lying agency made was to telegraph its firm intention before the comment period was closed. It was like the bizarre world of Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland: First the sentence; then the trial.
ATF cries “uncle” after getting hammered from the public
The agency is now crying “uncle,” in the face of thousands upon thousands of negative comments from gun owners all around the country -- including more than 200 congressmen.
The agency said today: "Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law and balanced the interests of law enforcement, industry, and sportsmen, the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study."
A “good faith interpretation”? Well, that’s laughable. But realize the agency says the issue deserves “further study.”
So now the question becomes: Is this a genuine retreat, or just a “tactical retreat,” as we saw with Operation Choke Point? In that case, the federal government removed gun dealers from its “risky business list,” but continue to persecute them under that program on a case-by-case basis.
And, finally, what about the ban on Russian-made 7N6 ammo, which is not reversed by ATF's reversal?
Our answer to both of these questions is that we need to keep up the pressure -- and not trust ATF's purported “change of heart.”
GOA will keep watching the ATF and alert you to any future attempts to slip a ban by the American people.
Your grassroots efforts have been phenomenal!!!
In the past couple of weeks, GOA had warned millions of Americans to the dangers of the AR-15 ammo ban through our website and Facebook pages, and appeared in several media outlets as well.
You can listen to (or read) some of the interviews with GOA spokesmen here:
* GOA helps fan the flames against the AR-15 ban, The Hill, March 8, 2015 http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxdQ47RDmWRwbXDV4fhsGt21B44f_cyZX9bQcUcA0cpC2hVAmqpFmXbLVYLKvS3ohulipaFVsQkTuTefgaIIX0RJlxxuzpVyUKMXSjzCIgzBIS-Wo34ZofF5Prb21ikA-84Ae0zYGcOk1WHBvBxVMZESu9lEnC9k45gbjpJQSUIck&lp=0 (http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxdQ47RDmWRwbXDV4fhsGt21B44f_cyZX9bQcUcA0cpC2hVAmqpFmXbLVYLKvS3ohulipaFVsQkTuTefgaIIX0RJlxxuzpVyUKMXSjzCIgzBIS-Wo34ZofF5Prb21ikA-84Ae0zYGcOk1WHBvBxVMZESu9lEnC9k45gbjpJQSUIck&lp=0)
* Obama’s bullet grab sparks rebellion, WorldNetDaily, March 4, 2015 http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxVcJpkol6Ys-cvI1NseAXl6uJU32BOUlm727jT0G2KeJQmEaN29E7Q8YB17o1d84S-1xbSmZhYtWStvg1HPsj_o3RLdn7k49Krzdn4_X4QJ3lphU8iI8G6U0RSCd-8_D1xJWO-866OLfw4mwU3c_OpYrm7IJlVYKoGNB1SZK0KU4&lp=0 (http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxVcJpkol6Ys-cvI1NseAXl6uJU32BOUlm727jT0G2KeJQmEaN29E7Q8YB17o1d84S-1xbSmZhYtWStvg1HPsj_o3RLdn7k49Krzdn4_X4QJ3lphU8iI8G6U0RSCd-8_D1xJWO-866OLfw4mwU3c_OpYrm7IJlVYKoGNB1SZK0KU4&lp=0)
* GOA blasts Obama’s justification for ammo ban, The Blaze, March 2, 2015 http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAx_ORL129myAZhexsTpPcHoaCFEIw60NPTNAsoZNzV_Cl8dkSwIVfjQSmgyGzd7DuBOMWqg1Y_ir_y2eoV8ibBH9M30a4xG4kvH4r52Ql9V3y55f6KsJYm9s4qE13wpS3li6ctNI_nlZp5EhE2q4mPTiIqazpcOKqYrw--wiehk7lGV9VhVk9B2Bz7lXEFX8YjYpvZy677iK2x50NKGRnXELEuOEqVESZ0FtVMP9-2xCYb3OnkSrpwebY-A_ySPftUxAenMsox9fnWnYghF2rKuw&lp=0 (http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAx_ORL129myAZhexsTpPcHoaCFEIw60NPTNAsoZNzV_Cl8dkSwIVfjQSmgyGzd7DuBOMWqg1Y_ir_y2eoV8ibBH9M30a4xG4kvH4r52Ql9V3y55f6KsJYm9s4qE13wpS3li6ctNI_nlZp5EhE2q4mPTiIqazpcOKqYrw--wiehk7lGV9VhVk9B2Bz7lXEFX8YjYpvZy677iK2x50NKGRnXELEuOEqVESZ0FtVMP9-2xCYb3OnkSrpwebY-A_ySPftUxAenMsox9fnWnYghF2rKuw&lp=0)
* GOA lays out strategy for defeating the ban on AR-15 ammunition, March 4, 2015. NOTE: Click on the “WND/Radio America” link half way down the page to hear the interview with GOA’s legislative counsel Michael Hammond. http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxfdvoaXa4dbtUubuMz14qGIWoJGmSIfyeG4bpMT_KS-NB9zEfIYd_6p16haCj0lB6wmy3ZcbKqDsgVVFebmm83JKm4SgVm5n77fEhNYV4H0SflB9rJlPaDvgB2vZm5w_NOqsiofARiWcauA8GamNH7xm5bSJr4YVfZOSKNjQboWiMs2ZuQ0KSeiWSFA2yYrQC&lp=0 (http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxfdvoaXa4dbtUubuMz14qGIWoJGmSIfyeG4bpMT_KS-NB9zEfIYd_6p16haCj0lB6wmy3ZcbKqDsgVVFebmm83JKm4SgVm5n77fEhNYV4H0SflB9rJlPaDvgB2vZm5w_NOqsiofARiWcauA8GamNH7xm5bSJr4YVfZOSKNjQboWiMs2ZuQ0KSeiWSFA2yYrQC&lp=0)
This has been a team effort. And we thank you for all your participation.
For now, pat yourselves on the back -- your hard work in lobbying Congress and sending your comments to the ATF has paid off!
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So how many of us hoarded M855? :popcorn:
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So how many of us hoarded M855? :popcorn:
I don't own one round of it. Never have, never will. I bought 1k rounds of the 55gr ball a few years ago and was disappointed in the performance. I still have 2-300 rounds of it.
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So how many of us hoarded M855? :popcorn:
Recently? ;)
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So how many of us hoarded M855? :popcorn:
nah.
if im going to shoot a bunch of "cheap" ammo, im going to shoot actually cheap ammo. even before the panic it was like 50 cents a round. might as well buy cases of .223 or 5.56 55 grain for 350 a case or less. im no good of a shot yet, anyways, so im not going to bother shooting high quality stuff, and everything i've seen on the M855, well, if im going to shoot angle of pie plate as it is, the extra MOA i get vs the really cheap stuff is irrelevant.
i'll wait til i can start getting consistent groupings first before i think about spending more than 35 cents a round. took me damn near three trips to the range to get my sight sighted in (and its technically not even sighted in well, tbh. its off to the right by about 4 inches at 100 yards, but i havent had a chance to sit down and move it yet) as it is, i need practice, not expensive ammo.
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nah.
if im going to shoot a bunch of "cheap" ammo, im going to shoot actually cheap ammo. even before the panic it was like 50 cents a round. might as well buy cases of .223 or 5.56 55 grain for 350 a case or less. im no good of a shot yet, anyways, so im not going to bother shooting high quality stuff, and everything i've seen on the M855, well, if im going to shoot angle of pie plate as it is, the extra MOA i get vs the really cheap stuff is irrelevant.
For some reason, green tip ammo here is really expensive compared to mainland/online prices. Also m855 is one of the worst 5.56 variants. Bad accuracy, bad effect on soft targets too.
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nah.
if im going to shoot a bunch of "cheap" ammo, im going to shoot actually cheap ammo.
What he said.
There is some good cheap ammo out there. Well, there was. American eagle was good and prvi partisan mach was outstanding. I haven't seen it for a long time though.
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The new M855A1 is exceptionally accurate. It is a bit hotter. I shot it at 600 and it seemed to be shooting like my 80s with a little more windage and about the same elevation.
Apparently it's already proven itself at Perry
http://www.army.mil/article/86321/ (http://www.army.mil/article/86321/)
M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round (EPR) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVZJ-DEKNR0#)
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NRA Forces Obama to Wave White Flag on Proposed Ammo Ban … For Now
Fairfax, Va. – The National Rifle Association (NRA) was instrumental in stalling the Obama Administration’s initial attempt to ban
commonly used ammunition for the most popular rifle in America, the AR-15. The announcement that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms
and Explosives (BATFE) will suspend its proposed framework to ban M855 ammunition validates the NRA’s assertion that this effort was nothing
more than a political maneuver to bypass Congress and impose gun control on the American people.
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150310/nra-forces-obama-to-waive-white-flag-on-proposed-ammo-ban-for-now (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150310/nra-forces-obama-to-waive-white-flag-on-proposed-ammo-ban-for-now)
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The new M855A1 is exceptionally accurate. It is a bit hotter. I shot it at 600 and it seemed to be shooting like my 80s with a little more windage and about the same elevation.
I'll bet it costs two or three times what m855 costs and we will never get to have it.
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I can't wait for the DOJ to start a false flag situation involving M855 ammo.
Surprising we didn't hear the media go back and say at Sandy Hook and the 2012 Colorado Theater shooters used M855.
So funny to see in the pajama media the words Temporary and On Hold, not using the words Stopped and reversed like conservative news.
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Surprising we didn't hear the media go back and say at Sandy Hook and the 2012 Colorado Theater shooters used M855.
Well, the media (Fox News, no less) gave a platform for someone to do just that:
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150306/anti-gunners-lie-to-promote-batfe-ammo-ban (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150306/anti-gunners-lie-to-promote-batfe-ammo-ban)
Anti-Gunners Lie to Promote BATFE Ammo Ban
Friday, March 06, 2015
On Fox News' "America's Newsroom," former Obama campaigner Marjorie Clifton claimed that M855 ammunition "has been used in every mass shooting we've had in the country over past years." That is absolutely untrue. Most of these events have not involved firearms even capable of using that round.
So funny to see in the pajama media the words Temporary and On Hold, not using the words Stopped and reversed like conservative news.
Not all the "conservative" media is convinced the BATFE attempts to ban ammo, including M855 are over. For example, David Codrea:
http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-temporarily-shelves-proposed-ammo-ban-while-power-to-proceed-remains-intact (http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-temporarily-shelves-proposed-ammo-ban-while-power-to-proceed-remains-intact)
ATF temporarily shelves proposed ammo ban while power to proceed remains intact
Today's Gun Rights Examiner report notes it's OK to breathe a temporary sigh of relief -- just don't make the mistake of thinking it's over, or that it's safe to let our guard down, because they slipped another ban through less than a year ago without all the brouhaha, and they're willing to wait until the time is right to strike again.
What did the Terminator say?
"I'll be back."
Until it's crushed in a hydraulic press, I'd believe it.
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Next time there probably wont be any warning either.
FEDERAL AGENCIES:
Public notice not required for revising interpretive rules -- Supreme Court
Jeremy P. Jacobs, E&E reporter
Greenwire: Monday, March 9, 2015
"The Supreme Court ruled unanimously today that an agency does not need to post a public notice and solicit comments when it revises one of its interpretive rules."
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White House says Barry still committed to Gun Control, Gun Lobby is just causing a delay.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/03/11/white-house-ammo-ban-delayed-but-obama-still-committed-to-gun-control/ (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/03/11/white-house-ammo-ban-delayed-but-obama-still-committed-to-gun-control/)
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White House says Barry still committed to Gun Control, Gun Lobby is just causing a delay.
Everybody be sure to thank the 2AHawaii members that voted for the turd.
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.
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Seems like it all stems from AR pistols. If you can even call them a pistol.
No is walking around with an AR pistol stuck in their pants. Which the police associations have confirmed.
Everybody be sure to thank the 2AHawaii members that voted for the turd.
In all fairness, we poor folks in Hawaii don't get to vote for the president. The election is decided before the polls close in Hawaii so voting for the Pres here is only symbolic.
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Seems like it all stems from AR pistols. If you can even call them a pistol.
No is walking around with an AR pistol stuck in their pants. Which the police associations have confirmed.
In all fairness, we poor folks in Hawaii don't get to vote for the president. The election is decided before the polls close in Hawaii so voting for the Pres here is only symbolic.
I believe a case can be made that it's only symbolic everywhere else as well.
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Seems like it all stems from AR pistols. If you can even call them a pistol.
Actually, it stems from the ATF not following their own guidance. Based on their own definitions of what constitutes an Armor Piercing round as it is referred to in the 1986 federal statute:
(17)
(A) The term ‘ammunition’ means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term ‘armor piercing ammunition’ means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term ‘armor piercing ammunition’ does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921)
The definition does not require that so-called armor-piercing ammunition actually be capable of piercing armor.
The first definition, from (B)(i) above, requires all of the following: a projectile (or bullet) must be
1) usable in a handgun, and
2) constructed entirely from “one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.”
M855 ammo is made from a combination of steel and lead, and lead is not one of the materials listed in the statutory definition of “armor-piercing ammunition.”
The AR-15 pistol rhetoric was a shoehorn to get the ATF to have the exemption removed. Based on the ATF's own guidance, M855 was misclassified, and it should have never required an exemption in the first place.
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ATF ANNOUNCED THAT IT WILL NOT BAN M855 AMMO AT THIS TIME.
You can find this info on the ATF Website. :shaka:
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I believe a case can be made that it's only symbolic everywhere else as well.
Know what you guys are saying.
Still, voting for the POS is a statement that you support his agenda. That enrages me. It will take decades to clean up the mess being created.
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https://youtu.be/ikyzhv894N0 (https://youtu.be/ikyzhv894N0)
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https://youtu.be/ikyzhv894N0 (https://youtu.be/ikyzhv894N0)
I think very highly of Jerry. He is the best. However, the whole time I was watching that video I was thinking to myself, how the hell does he find anything in that mess??? :rofl:
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http://www.captainsjournal.com/2015/03/12/atf-wants-to-go-after-all-5-56-mm-ammunition-not-just-green-tip/ (http://www.captainsjournal.com/2015/03/12/atf-wants-to-go-after-all-5-56-mm-ammunition-not-just-green-tip/)
ATF Wants To Go After All 5.56 mm Ammunition, Not Just Green Tip
Excerpts:
Recall when we speculated about why the ATF had decided to hold its “green tip” ban in abatement? Well, the questions are answered.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives on Thursday raised new concerns about surplus military ammo used in popular AR-15 rifles and pistols just days after pulling back on a proposal to ban the ammo because it could threaten police safety.
In a Senate Appropriations Committee hearing, ATF Director B. Todd Jones said all types of the 5.56 military-style ammo used by shooters pose a threat to police as more people buy the AR-15-style pistols.
“Any 5.56 round” is “a challenge for officer safety,” he said. Jones asked lawmakers to help in a review of a 1986 bill written to protect police from so-called “cop killer” rounds that largely exempted rifle ammo like the 5.56 because it has been used by target shooters, not criminals."
....
So speculation of course ran wild as to the exact intent of the ATF. Are they stupid? Do they not really understand the technical issues they are dealing with? But today B. Todd Jones answered those questions. They are concerned about all 5.56 mm cartridges. Of course they are. But that .270 pointed soft point, shot from a necked down 30-06 cartridge from my bolt action deer hunting rifle? Yes, that’s the one. It will penetrate soft body armor too – lead ball, soft point, all of it. So will lead ball 30-06. So will lead ball .308. So will lead ball 7 mm. Virtually all rifle rounds (except .22LR and .22 WMR) will penetrate soft body armor because kevlar is specified to 9 mm rounds (as regards mass and velocity).
Jones knows that. The ATF at large knows that. What Jones is telling the Congress is that he wants their help in banning rifle ammunition. Rifle ammunition. All of it. They will start with 5.56 mm ammunition, green tip, lead ball, pointed soft point – all of it. Then they will make it clear that all other rifle ammunition is as lethal as 5.56 mm ammunition, so they need a ban on that too.
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If the ATF can ban ammo that was originally designed for and intended for use in rifles, not pistols, simply because a pistol version that accepts that rifle ammo now exists, then there is nothing stopping the government from having the ATF contract the manufacture of a pistol for each and every caliber of rifle round. If the standard for banning the ammo is that stupid, then meeting that definition would be easy and effectively create a ban on all rifles. No bullets, no guns.
next will be shotguns, because we have handguns now that can use those shells, too.
Remember, nothing in the ATF guidance says an armor piercing round must be capable of piercing armor.
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http://www.captainsjournal.com/2015/03/12/atf-wants-to-go-after-all-5-56-mm-ammunition-not-just-green-tip/ (http://www.captainsjournal.com/2015/03/12/atf-wants-to-go-after-all-5-56-mm-ammunition-not-just-green-tip/)
ATF Wants To Go After All 5.56 mm Ammunition, Not Just Green Tip
Excerpts:
Recall when we speculated about why the ATF had decided to hold its “green tip” ban in abatement? Well, the questions are answered.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives on Thursday raised new concerns about surplus military ammo used in popular AR-15 rifles and pistols just days after pulling back on a proposal to ban the ammo because it could threaten police safety.
In a Senate Appropriations Committee hearing, ATF Director B. Todd Jones said all types of the 5.56 military-style ammo used by shooters pose a threat to police as more people buy the AR-15-style pistols.
“Any 5.56 round” is “a challenge for officer safety,” he said. Jones asked lawmakers to help in a review of a 1986 bill written to protect police from so-called “cop killer” rounds that largely exempted rifle ammo like the 5.56 because it has been used by target shooters, not criminals."
....
So speculation of course ran wild as to the exact intent of the ATF. Are they stupid? Do they not really understand the technical issues they are dealing with? But today B. Todd Jones answered those questions. They are concerned about all 5.56 mm cartridges. Of course they are. But that .270 pointed soft point, shot from a necked down 30-06 cartridge from my bolt action deer hunting rifle? Yes, that’s the one. It will penetrate soft body armor too – lead ball, soft point, all of it. So will lead ball 30-06. So will lead ball .308. So will lead ball 7 mm. Virtually all rifle rounds (except .22LR and .22 WMR) will penetrate soft body armor because kevlar is specified to 9 mm rounds (as regards mass and velocity).
Jones knows that. The ATF at large knows that. What Jones is telling the Congress is that he wants their help in banning rifle ammunition. Rifle ammunition. All of it. They will start with 5.56 mm ammunition, green tip, lead ball, pointed soft point – all of it. Then they will make it clear that all other rifle ammunition is as lethal as 5.56 mm ammunition, so they need a ban on that too.
"if you like your ammo, you can keep your ammo"
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If the ATF can ban ammo that was originally designed for and intended for use in rifles, not pistols, simply because a pistol version that accepts that rifle ammo now exists, then there is nothing stopping the government from having the ATF contract the manufacture of a pistol for each and every caliber of rifle round. If the standard for banning the ammo is that stupid, then meeting that definition would be easy and effectively create a ban on all rifles. No bullets, no guns.
I'm sure Bloomberg/Gates/Allen et. al. have the funds available (and perhaps already allocated) for independent designers, engineers, and manufacturers to pop out those things in less than a year. With a 605 day pad before Obama leaves, that's more than enough time to get all ammo banned. For the cops! (Because we know criminals will never have any ammo after the bans.)