2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jl808 on March 03, 2015, 09:53:18 AM
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-31716684
For the full speech and transcript (45 mins)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2015/03/03/full-text-netanyahus-address-to-congress/
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The boycott of this man is the proof that these liberal democrats are the real true bigoted racists. These anti Semitic scumb are trying to replay history and start holocaust II.
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granted, if Iran got a bomb, they just might use it on isis.
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All of Hawaii showed up for PM Netanyahu 's speech except for yours truly
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A logical, reasoned assessment by the leader of a country that lives next to these people every day.
If he wanted to get the libs attention he should've said "THOSE BASTARDS ARE USING RADIATION TO KILL ALL THE UNICORNS!!"
Now that's something this administration could get behind.
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It's sad to see so many brainwashed by obama.
I encounter these sheeple on a daily basis.
Makes me almost ashamed to be an American.
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It's sad to see so many brainwashed by obama.
I encounter these sheeple on a daily basis.
Makes me almost ashamed to be an American.
I'm more ashamed they call themselves Americans, and I can't deny it...... :grrr:
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Brian Schatz is a Toad.
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Does any more evidence need to be presented?
Liberal/progressive democrats are nothing more than the NAZI party of the 21st century. They are the same evil racist bigoted democrats of times before. Their strategies have changed, but the outcome is the same goal as of old. The goals of this party are enslavement of the population and unchallenged power. Every single one of this party’s actions and policy is geared toward the subjugation of the minority, anti-Semitic tendency, support of terrorist state, and stagnation of the United States. With nearly all of these goals coming to fruition, the population has become so irate and frustrated that many don’t care to challenge these monsters.
They use the guise of “helping “, while all the while dole out free handouts, which don’t amount to squat, to buy off the less fortunate, and profess impossible promises of a better tomorrow that can NEVER come to pass. Results show that they want all power and control with no tolerance for alternate thought or common sense logic. They work quickly to stamp out and discredit anyone who opposes them with lies, deceit, and outright criminal behavior. This MUST stop NOW. Wake up America!
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Netanyahu makes his case on Iran deal, but to audiences with limited leverage
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/netanyahu-makes-his-case-on-iran-deal-but-to-audiences-with-limited-leverage/2015/03/03/5cd55ab8-c1d1-11e4-ad5c-3b8ce89f1b89_story.html?hpid=z1 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/netanyahu-makes-his-case-on-iran-deal-but-to-audiences-with-limited-leverage/2015/03/03/5cd55ab8-c1d1-11e4-ad5c-3b8ce89f1b89_story.html?hpid=z1)
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The Anti-Iran lobby has been claiming the same story for decades.
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/05/world/iran-may-be-able-build-atomic-bomb-5-years-us-israeli-officials-fear.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/05/world/iran-may-be-able-build-atomic-bomb-5-years-us-israeli-officials-fear.html)
20 years ago Iran was only 5 years away from the bomb and supposedly wiping Israel off the face of the planet.
Now looking at this logically;
How many wars has Iran initiated in those past 20 years?
How many has the US invaded?
How many countries have actually used nukes against another country?
The US government actually gave nukes to Pakistan for some insane reason even though they traded artillery strikes with India on a daily basis.
Who is the US government to complain about a nation that hasn't invaded another country in the last century about getting a nuke?
the US government banning another government from having a nuke is exactly like the world scale version of the US government banning guns from people that have never committed a crime.
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So you're saying we are all the same as Iran? :wtf:
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Looking at this logically.......Iran with nukes is F'd up!!!!!!!
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The Anti-Iran lobby has been claiming the same story for decades.
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/05/world/iran-may-be-able-build-atomic-bomb-5-years-us-israeli-officials-fear.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/05/world/iran-may-be-able-build-atomic-bomb-5-years-us-israeli-officials-fear.html)
20 years ago Iran was only 5 years away from the bomb and supposedly wiping Israel off the face of the planet.
Now looking at this logically;
How many wars has Iran initiated in those past 20 years?
How many has the US invaded?
How many countries have actually used nukes against another country?
The US government actually gave nukes to Pakistan for some insane reason even though they traded artillery strikes with India on a daily basis.
Who is the US government to complain about a nation that hasn't invaded another country in the last century about getting a nuke?
the US government banning another government from having a nuke is exactly like the world scale version of the US government banning guns from people that have never committed a crime.
Giving Iran nukes is like giving a mentally ill, drug addicted, wife beating, anti-American Government, psychopathic terrorist a fully automatic rifle with a million rounds of ammo.
Iran is FAR from "people that have never committed a crime." Iran has been, and is, one of the largest supporters of terroristic violence globally.
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(http://www.investors.com/image/RAMclr-022615-negotiations-WS-wide-IBD-Oped-extra-147.gif.cms)
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Giving Iran nukes is like giving a mentally ill, drug addicted, wife beating, anti-American Government, psychopathic terrorist a fully automatic rifle with a million rounds of ammo.
Iran is FAR from "people that have never committed a crime." Iran has been, and is, one of the largest supporters of terroristic violence globally.
And by what measure do you equate being a supporter of terrorism? Is being against UK and US intervention in the middle east terrorism?
Do you know why Iran has such a negative attitude towards the US? It might have something to do with our British allies usurping and destroying their government to put in place monopolistic oil companies in charge. It might also have something to do with the US supplying and supporting terrorists organization to once again destroy the Iranian revolutionary government after they got tired of the British puppets.
People fail to realize that we have been messing with the middle east and destroying their governments ever since the fall of the Ottoman Empire after WW1. It makes all the sens in the world that they would be pissed at the US for doing so.
I've also yet to see anyone properly defend giving Pakistan nuclear capabilities and the US government continues to do so even though they still have a tense relationship that far outweighs the current "conflict" between Iran and Israel. Why aren't we invading a taking away the nukes from Pakistan when they are the largest source of foreign fighters freely flowing into Afghanistan.
The reality is that before anyone can start crying about Iran wanting to defend itself from the most aggressive nation in recent history, the US govt needs to clean up the crappy list of so called "allies" that do the exact same thing they claim to not like.
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And by what measure do you equate being a supporter of terrorism? Is being against UK and US intervention in the middle east terrorism?
Do you know why Iran has such a negative attitude towards the US? It might have something to do with our British allies usurping and destroying their government to put in place monopolistic oil companies in charge. It might also have something to do with the US supplying and supporting terrorists organization to once again destroy the Iranian revolutionary government after they got tired of the British puppets.
People fail to realize that we have been messing with the middle east and destroying their governments ever since the fall of the Ottoman Empire after WW1. It makes all the sens in the world that they would be pissed at the US for doing so.
I've also yet to see anyone properly defend giving Pakistan nuclear capabilities and the US government continues to do so even though they still have a tense relationship that far outweighs the current "conflict" between Iran and Israel. Why aren't we invading a taking away the nukes from Pakistan when they are the largest source of foreign fighters freely flowing into Afghanistan.
The reality is that before anyone can start crying about Iran wanting to defend itself from the most aggressive nation in recent history, the US govt needs to clean up the crappy list of so called "allies" that do the exact same thing they claim to not like.
In July 2012, the United States State Department released a report on terrorism around the world in 2011. The report states that "Iran remained an active state sponsor of terrorism in 2011 and increased its terrorist-related activity" and that "Iran also continued to provide financial, material, and logistical support for terrorist and militant groups throughout the Middle East and Central Asia." The report states that Iran has continued to provide "lethal support, including weapons, training, funding, and guidance, to Iraqi Shia militant groups targeting U.S. and Iraqi forces, as well as civilians," despite pledging to support the stabilization of Iraq, and that the Qods Force provided training to the Taliban in Afghanistan on "small unit tactics, small arms, explosives, and indirect fire weapons, such as mortars, artillery, and rockets." The report further states that Iran has provided weapons and training to the Assad regime in Syria which has launched a brutal crackdown on Syrian rebels, as well as providing weapons, training, and funding to Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, among others, and has assisted in rearming Hizballah. The report states as well that Iran has remained unwilling to bring to justice senior members of Al Qaeda that it continued to detain, and also refused to publicly identify these senior members, as well as that Iran has allowed Al Qaeda members to operate a core facilitation pipeline through Iranian territory, which has enabled Al Qaeda to carry funds and move facilitators and operatives to South Asia and elsewhere.
India
In July 2012, The Times of India reported that New Delhi police have concluded that terrorists belonging to a branch of Iran’s military, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, were responsible for an attack on 13 February 2012, during which a bomb explosion targeted an Israeli diplomat in New Delhi, India, wounding one embassy staff member, a local employee, and two passers-by. According to the report, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards may have planned other attacks on Israeli targets around the world as well.[12][13]
Israel
Iran does not recognize Israel. The United States State Department states Iran provides support for Hamas, Hezbollah and Palestinian Islamic Jihad in Israel.
Hamas
Iran supplies political support and weapons to Hamas,[14] an organization classified by Israel, the United States, Canada, the European Union and Japan as a terrorist organization. Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian National Authority, has said "Hamas is funded by Iran. It claims it is financed by donations, but the donations are nothing like what it receives from Iran".[15] From 2000 to 2004, Hamas was responsible for killing nearly 400 Israelis and wounding more than 2,000 in 425 attacks, according to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. From 2001 through May 2008, Hamas launched more than 3,000 Qassam rockets and 2,500 mortar attacks into Israel.[16]
Hezbollah
During the 1980s and 1990s, a wave of kidnappings, bombings, and assassinations of Western targets, particularly American and Israeli, occurred in Lebanon and other countries. The attacks, attributed to Hezbollah, have included:
The 1982-1983 Tyre headquarters bombings
The blowing up of a van filled with explosives in front of the U.S. embassy in Beirut killing 58 Americans and Lebanese in 1983.
The 1983 Beirut barracks bombing of the U.S. Marine and French 'Drakkar' barracks which killed 241 American and 58 French peacekeepers. On May 30, 2003, a U.S. federal judge ruled that Hezbollah carried out the attack at the direction of the Iranian government.[17]
The 1983 Kuwait bombings in collaboration with the Iraqi Dawa Party.[18]
The 1984 United States embassy annex bombing, killing 24.[19]
The hijacking of TWA flight 847 holding the 39 Americans on board hostage for weeks in 1985 and murder of one U.S. Navy sailor
The Lebanon hostage crisis from 1982 to 1992.[20]
According to Middle East analyst James Philips, an August 1989 bombing in London was a failed Hezbollah assassination attempt on Indian-born British author Salman Rushdie, after the Iranian government put a $2.5 million bounty on his head over the novel The Satanic Verses.[21][22] Iranian officials have repeatedly called for Rushdie's death as recently as 2005.[23]
The bombing of the Israeli Embassy killing twenty-nine in 1992. Hezbollah operatives boasted of involvement.[24]
The bombing of a Jewish community center in Argentina killing 95 in 1994. Hezbollah claimed responsibility.[25]
The 1994 AC Flight 901 attack, killing 21, in Panama. Hezbollah claimed responsibility.[26]
The 1996 Khobar Towers bombing, killing 19 US servicemen. On December 22, 2006, federal judge Royce C. Lamberth ruled that Iran was responsible for the attack, stating "The totality of the evidence at trial...firmly establishes that the Khobar Towers bombing was planned, funded, and sponsored by senior leadership in the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran. The defendants' conduct in facilitating, financing, and providing material support to bring about this attack was intentional, extreme, and outrageous."[27]
The 2012 Burgas bus bombing, killing 6, in Bulgaria.[28]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_state-sponsored_terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_state-sponsored_terrorism)
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CONTINUED
Islamic Jihad is widely believed to be a nom de guerre of the Lebanese Islamist political movement and social service agency Hezbollah, which was founded in 1982 with many millions of dollars of aid and considerable training and logistical support from the Islamic Republic. Many believe the group promotes the Iranian agenda and that its goal is to overthrow the moderate governments in the area and create Islamic Republics based on that of Iran as well as the destruction of Israel.[1] Iran has supplied the militant organization Hezbollah with substantial amounts of financial, training, weapons (including long range rockets), explosives, political, diplomatic, and organizational aid while persuading Hezbollah to take an action against Israel.[29][30][31] Hezbollah's 1985 manifesto listed its four main goals as "Israel's final departure from Lebanon as a prelude to its final obliteration"[32] According to reports released in February 2010, Hezbollah received $400 million from Iran.[30]
Its methods include assassinations, kidnappings, suicide bombings, and guerilla warfare. It is believed to be one of the Islamic resistance groups that made suicide bombings common use. Other attacks credited to Hezbollah include:
Firing of hundreds of rockets into northern Israel on a daily basis and capture of Israeli soldiers in 2006.[33]
According to a senior intelligence officer, the 2005 assassination of Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was carried out by Hezbollah at the direction of Iranian agents.[34]
Iraq insurgency
Iranian proxies killed an estimated 1,100 US troops in Iraq.[35] In addition, insurgents supported by Iran reportedly committed acts of terrorism.[34][36][37] The United States State Department states that weapons are smuggled into Iraq and used to arm Iran's allies among the Shiite militias, including those of the anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and his Mahdi army.[38]
During his address to the United States Congress on September 11, 2007, Commanding officer for the United States forces in Iraq, General David Petraeus noted that the multinational forces in Iraq have found that Iran's Quds force has provided training, equipment, funding, and direction to terrorists. “When we captured the leaders of these so-called special groups … and the deputy commander of a Lebanese Hezbollah department that was created to support their efforts in Iraq, we’ve learned a great deal about how Iran has, in fact, supported these elements and how those elements have carried out violent acts against our forces, Iraqi forces and innocent civilians.”[36]
Dexter Filkins has described the extensive involvement of Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps Quds Force commander Qasem Suleimani in arming and training both Sunni and Shi'ite militias in Iraq. According to a Western diplomat quoted by Filkins: "Suleimani wanted to bleed the Americans, so he invited in the jihadis, and things got out of control."[34]
Kenya
Aggrey Adoli, Kenya's police chief in Kenya's coastal region, said on 22 June 2012 that two Iranians, Ahmad Abolfathi Mohammad and Sayed Mansour Mousavi, believed to members of Iran's Revolutionary Guards' Quds Force,[39] were arrested and suspected of being involved in terrorism. One of the Iranians led counter-terrorism officers to recover 15 kilograms of a powdery substance believed to be explosive.[40] The two Iranians allegedly admitted to plotting to attack United States, Israeli, Saudi, or British targets in Kenya.[39] In court, Police Sgt. Erick Opagal, an investigator with Kenya's Anti-Terrorism Police Unit, said that the two Iranians had shipped over 100 kilograms of powerful explosives into Kenya.[41]
It was later revealed that the targets included Gil Haskel, Israel's ambassador to Kenya. During a visit to Kenya in August, Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon praised Kenya for its efforts in stopping Iranian terror threats against Israeli and Jewish targets. Uganda, Ethiopia, and Kenya all expressed concern with Ayalon regarding Iran's attempts to increase terror activity in Africa.[42]
Al-Qaeda ties
Al Qaeda and Iran formed an alliance during the 1990s in which Hezbollah trained al Qaeda operatives.[43] After the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, Iran evacuated hundreds of al Qaeda personnel from Afghanistan, allowing the formation of an al Qaeda "management council" on Iranian soil. While some al Qaeda operatives were allowed to act freely, others were placed under house arrest.[44][45] Even though Iran has assisted Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in fighting Sunni insurgents during the sectarian Syrian civil war,[46] al Qaeda and Islamic State insurgents are reportedly "under orders not to attack inside Iran in order to preserve their supply network there".[47][48] In 2014, there was speculation that Iran might sever its ties with al Qaeda in return for a deal with the West regarding its nuclear program.[47]
1998 United States embassy bombings
On November 8, 2011, Judge John D. Bates ruled in federal court that Iran was liable for the 1998 United States embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. In his 45-page decision, Judge Bates wrote that "Prior to their meetings with Iranian officials and agents Bin Laden and al Qaeda did not possess the technical expertise required to carry out the embassy bombings in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam."[49]
September 11
The U.S. indictment of bin Laden filed in 1998 stated that al-Qaeda "forged alliances . . . with the government of Iran and its associated terrorist group Hezbollah for the purpose of working together against their perceived common enemies."[43] On May 31, 2001, Steven Emerson and Daniel Pipes wrote in The Wall Street Journal that "Officials of the Iranian government helped arrange advanced weapons and explosives training for Al-Qaeda personnel in Lebanon where they learned, for example, how to destroy large buildings."[50]
The 9/11 Commission Report stated that 8 to 10 of the hijackers on 9/11 passed through Iran and their travel was facilitated by Iranian border guards.[43][51] The report also noted that "a senior operative of Hezbollah" (Imad Mughniyah) was on the flights that convoyed the future hijackers from Saudi Arabia to Tehran, along with associates that Kenneth Timmerman describes as "Iranian agents".[51][52] The extent of Iranian involvement has been questioned due to major differences between the religious ideologies of Iran and al Qaeda;[53] according to the 9/11 Commission report, Mughniyah's presence on flights carrying the hijackers to Iran may have been a "remarkable coincidence."[51] After the commission called for "further investigation" into a possible Iranian role in the attacks, President George W. Bush demanded that Iran sever its ties with al-Qaeda, while saying that in his view, "There was no direct connection between Iran and the attacks of September 11."[52]
Judge George B. Daniels ruled in a federal district court in Manhattan that Iran bears legal responsibility for providing "material support" to the 9/11 plotters and hijackers in Havlish, et al. v. Osama bin Laden, Iran, et al.[54][55] Included in Judge Daniels' findings was that Iran "used front companies to obtain a Boeing 757-767-777 flight simulator for training the terrorists", Ramzi bin al-Shibh traveled to Iran in January 2001, and an Iranian government memorandum from May 14, 2001 demonstrates Iranian culpability in planning the attacks.[54] Defectors from Iran’s intelligence service testified that Iranian officials had "foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks."[53]
Riyadh compound bombings
According to Seth G. Jones and Peter Bergen, the 2003 Riyadh compound bombings were planned by al Qaeda operatives in Iran, with apparent Iranian complicity.[44][56] In May 2003, then-State Department official Ryan Crocker provided information on the upcoming attack to Iranian officials, who apparently took no action.[34]
January 2009 sanctions
In January 2009, the United States Treasury Department placed sanctions on four al-Qaeda operatives based in Iran. These include Mustafa Hamid, Muhammad Rab'a al-Sayid al-Bahtiyti, Ali Saleh Husain, and Sa'ad bin Laden, one of Osama bin Laden's sons. Stuart Levey, Under Secretary for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence, said that:
“ It is important that Iran give a public accounting of how it is meeting its international obligations to constrain al Qaida... Designations have a far reaching impact, deterring would-be donors from providing financial support to terrorism and leaving al Qaida leadership struggling to identify much-needed funding resources.[57] ”
July 2011 sanctions
In July 2011, the United States Treasury Department reported that Iran has been allowing al-Qaeda to channel money and operatives throughout the country. In response, the Treasury Department placed sanctions on six alleged cooperatives, including Ezedin Abdel Aziz Khalil, who was described as an important al-Qaeda facilitator based in Iran. The department said that Khalil was allowed to operate in Iran since 2005, and has been transporting money and terrorist recruits into Iran from the Middle East, and then to Pakistan. David Cohen, undersecretary for terrorism and financial intelligence, noted that by revealing these connections, "We are illuminating yet another aspect of Iran’s unmatched support for terrorism."[58]
October 2012 sanctions
In October 2012, the United States Treasury Department designated Adel Radi Saqr al-Wahabi al-Harbi, a deputy to the al Qaeda facilitator Muhsin al-Fadhli, who is based in Iran, and placed him under sanctions. Al-Harbi was accused of helping the travel of terrorists from Iran to Afghanistan or Iraq for al-Qaeda, as well as seeking money to support terrorism. The Treasury Department said that the al-Qaeda network used by al-Harbi operates according to an agreement with the Iranian government, under which al-Qaeda can operate and travel freely throughout Iran and to use Iran as a key transit point.[59]
al Qaeda in Syria
In February 2014, the US Treasury Department stated that Iran was helping al Qaeda transfer fighters into Syria, with key smuggler Olimzhon Adkhamovich Sadikov providing "visas and passports to numerous foreign fighters".[46]
Taliban insurgency
U.S. and British officials have accused Iran of giving weapons and support to the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan.[60][61][62][63][64][65][66][67][68][69]
"We did interdict a shipment, without question [from] the Revolutionary Guard's core Quds Force, through a known Taliban facilitator. Three of the individuals were killed... Iranians certainly view [it] as making life more difficult for us if Afghanistan is unstable. We don't have that kind of relationship with the Iranians. That's why I am particularly troubled by the interception of weapons coming from Iran. But we know that it's more than weapons; it's money; it's also according to some reports, training at Iranian camps as well."[70]
—General David Petraeus
According to Hamid Karzai, Iran is "not fooling anyone" with its support for Taliban insurgents.[71]
Documents released by Wikileaks in 2010 provide further information on Iranian support for al Qaeda and Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan.[72]
Cyberattacks
In October 2012, a former United States government official said that American authorities believe that Iranian hackers, who were likely supported by the Iranian government, were responsible for cyberattacks against oil and gas companies in the Persian Gulf. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta has called the cyberattacks the most destructive cyberattacks in the private sector. Another American official said that the Obama administration knows that a government was responsible for the cyberattacks, which was confirmed by American agencies investigating the cyberattacks.[73]
Other allegations
Along with the above allegations, Iran is also accused of other acts of terrorism. Including:
Mykonos restaurant assassinations. On September 17, 1992, Iranian-Kurdish insurgent leaders Sadegh Sharafkandi, Fattah Abdoli, Homayoun Ardalan and their translator Nouri Dehkordi were assassinated at the Mykonos Greek restaurant in Berlin, Germany. In the Mykonos trial, the courts found Kazem Darabi, an Iranian national who worked as a grocer in Berlin, and Lebanese Abbas Rhayel, guilty of murder and sentenced them to life in prison. Two other Lebanese, Youssef Amin and Mohamed Atris, were convicted of being accessories to murder. In its 10 April 1997 ruling, the court issued an international arrest warrant for Iranian intelligence minister Hojjat al-Islam Ali Fallahian[74] after declaring that the assassination had been ordered by him with knowledge of supreme leader Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and president Ayatollah Rafsanjani[75]
According to terrorism expert Daniel Pipes, Iran was primarily responsible for the deaths of some 800 Americans in terrorist attacks prior to 9/11.[76]
Sponsoring at least least 30 terrorist attacks between 2011 and 2013 "in places as far flung as Thailand, New Delhi, Lagos, and Nairobi", including a 2011 plot to assassinate the Saudi Arabian ambassador to the US and bomb the Israeli and Saudi embassies in Washington, D.C.[34]
In 2013, a former Iranian official speaking for Iran's Ammar Strategic Base think tank threatened "mass abductions and brutal killings of American citizens around the world and the rape and killing of one of Obama's daughters should the United States attack Syria."[77]
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"And by what measure do you equate being a supporter of terrorism? Is being against UK and US intervention in the middle east terrorism?"
I think that pretty much states my case.
You apparently think the Iranians are justified in their terroristic violence and killing of men, women, and children -- mostly civilians -- in China, Asia, the Middle East, Europe, and elsewhere, all because the UK and US meddled in their governmental affairs?
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http://youtu.be/xO8qZP_iU9I (http://youtu.be/xO8qZP_iU9I)
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"And by what measure do you equate being a supporter of terrorism? Is being against UK and US intervention in the middle east terrorism?"
I think that pretty much states my case.
You apparently think the Iranians are justified in their terroristic violence and killing of men, women, and children -- mostly civilians -- in China, Asia, the Middle East, Europe, and elsewhere, all because the UK and US meddled in their governmental affairs?
And what of the very same attacks carried out by US and UK backed "freedom fighters"? Are the CIA backed plans and attacks that continue to ravage the world not one in the same? Do they suddenly become different just because of the blind faith to the US government having a divine mandate over who gets to have a "democracy" or not?
Lets take a look at US sponsored regime changes
1949, Syria; a CIA puppet general coup to take over the newly independent republic of Syria whose rule only lasted four and a half months
1953, Iran; a CIA operation that was aimed at destroying and taking over a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government and restoring the power of the fascistic Shah
1954, Guatemala; a CIA plan against yet another DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government which resulted in a decades long civil war killing over 200,000
1955 to 1970, Tibet; directly supporting terrorist attacks against the Chinese government
1958, Indonesia; a 3 year long rebellion supported by US money and weapons that failed and left the rebel totally defeated while costing the US taxpayers to give billions of dollars in civilian and military aid to the war torn nation.
1959, Cuba; a direct attack on the Cuban nation to overthrow the Castro regime which only served to increase tension in the region and quite possibly the only reason that Castro managed to stay in power for so long. Had we not ever done such a foolish scheme the Cuban missile crisis may have never even been a thing.
1960 to 1963, Iraq; Another coup that resulted in creating a bigger enemy of the US than was originally a threat causing political massacres and shoddy alliances that did more harm than good and setting up the road for Saddam Hussein to come to power.
1960 to 1965, Democratic Republic of the Congo: The CIA backed and presidential authorization to assassinate the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED prime minister of the new independent republic. Setting up the over 30 year DICTATORSHIP of Mobutu Sese Seko, a brutal and violent man that stole over 15 billion dollars from his country to fund his lavish and rich life. Any form of opposition to his rule was met with public execution.
1961, Dominican Republic; a CIA supported assassination of the Dominican President led to a communist taking root in the nation and as a result Lyndon Johnson sent in the USMC and the US Army to invade and seize control of the nation from the "threat" of communist hands. After the US military occupied the nation for a year elections were held and a former puppet of the assassinated president took power resultting in a 12 year period of yet another dictatorship, but at least he was a US supported dictator!
1963, South Vietnam; in a rare turn of events both the US and Communist sought to assassinate the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED* president of South Vietnam. It turns out that the CIA was willing to pay more money and got to him first. I don't think i need to elaborate on the fate of Vietnam due to US intervention.
1964, Brazil; A US Presidential supported coup of the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government of Brazil. setting up a "transitory government" which turned into a out right dictatorship until as of recent history would any see Brazil as a legitimate government and it is still plagued by massive wealth inequality, political corruption, and humran rights violations.
1966, Ghana; another CIA backed coup of a government that only leads to decades of economic and political decline with suspension of national constitutions and ever changing military and civilians governments. Only recently could you consider Ghana a "stable" nation after the damage done by foreign intervention.
1970 to 1973, Chile; the US government backs and encourages the overthrow of the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government of Chile. Leading to the direct installation of the Pinochet dictatorship.
1979 to 1989, Afghanistan; The US fear of communism being far too popular an ideology to die of it's own ineptitude and poor policies doesn't seem to ever be understood by the Washington policy makers and as such the US government decides to directly train and fund Islamic "freedom fighter" organizations. Ultimately leaving Afghanistan a desolate war zone to be ripe for the taking by the now well known Al-Qaeda
1980, Turkey; The openly admitted US backed coup leading to a military dictatorship that brutally murdered, kidnapped and tortured political opposition.
resultign in the following as compiled by the Turkish government in 2012:
650,000 people were under arrest.
1,683,000 people were blacklisted.
230,000 people were judged in 210,000 lawsuits.
7,000 people were asked for the death penalty.
517 persons were sentenced to death.
50 of those given the death penalty were executed (26 political prisoners, 23 criminal offenders and 1 ASALA militant).
The files of 259 people, which had been asked for the death penalty, were sent to the National Assembly.
71,000 people were judged on account of the articles 141, 142 and 163 in Turkish Penal Code.
98,404 people were judged on charges of being members of a leftist, a rightist, a nationalist, a conservative, etc. organization.
388,000 people were not given a passport.
30,000 people were dismissed from their firms because they were suspects and therefore inconvenient.
14,000 people were removed from citizenship.
30,000 people went abroad as a political refugee.
300 people died in a suspicious manner.
Documented that 171 people died by reason of torture.
937 films were banned because these were found objectionable.
23,677 associations had their activities stopped.
3,854 teachers, 120 lecturers and 47 judges were dismissed.
400 journalists were asked a total of 4000 years’ imprisonment.
Journalists were sentenced 3315 years and 6 months’ imprisonment.
31 journalists went to jail.
300 journalists were attacked.
3 journalists were shot dead.
300 days in which newspapers were not published.
303 cases were opened for 13 major newspapers.
39 tonnes of newspapers and magazines were destroyed.
299 people lost their lives in prison.
144 people died in a suspicious manner.
14 people died in a hunger strike.
While fleeing, 16 people were shot.
95 people were killed in combat.
“Natural death report” for 73 persons was given.
The cause of death of 43 people was announced as “suicide”.
1981 to 1990, Nicaragua; The CIA attempt to overthrow the Sandinista government know as the Iran-Contra affair revealing weapons deals with Iran and even the use of drug money from smuggled drugs into the US with federal agency cooperation to fund, train, and arm the Contras.
1992 to 1996, Iraq; after the wonderful outcome from previous CIA intervention in Iraq the new dictatorship formerly supported by the US govt in it's funding of the Iran - Iraq war the CIA plots a failed coup to overthrow the Iraqi government resulting in the CIA contacts being executed and a bolstered base of support for the Hussein regime.
2002, Venezuela; the failed CIA coup of DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED Hugo Chavez. Venezuela still doesn't like the US government.
2005 to PRESENT, Iran; the US government passes the "Iran Freedom and Support Act" after the failed attempt to create an ally puppet state the US government decides it just need to throw more money at supporting rebel groups and "freedom fighters" to the tune of over $400 MILLION
2011 to PRESENT, Libya; The "spontaneous" Arab spring that saw the US government forming a NATO coalition in support of "freedom fighters" seeking to oust the DIRECT DEMOCRATIC government of Libya. Since the drone assisted assassination of the Libyan president Libya has become a hotbed of islamic insurgent activity and littell more than a war ravaged shadow of it's former self.
2012 to PRESENT, Syria; proclaimed as the Syrian revolution by the US mainstream media the US government has been funding, training and arming "moderate" rebels set against the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED Syrian government. A major problem the lack of verification of these "moderate" rebels and the distribution of US supplied weapons. Of recent note is the discovery that Senator John McCain visited with these "moderate" rebels only for it to be discovered that within the very same group are known ISIS members.
As for Iran's record of foreign intervention all there seems to be are allegations with no real evidence to back up such claims.
Looking at this list I am just absolutely ecstatic to know that the US government and it's blind supporter believe they are in any sort of position telling others that they are too dangerous to be trusted with nuclear weapons.
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And what of the very same attacks carried out by US and UK backed "freedom fighters"? Are the CIA backed plans and attacks that continue to ravage the world not one in the same? Do they suddenly become different just because of the blind faith to the US government having a divine mandate over who gets to have a "democracy" or not?
Lets take a look at US sponsored regime changes as related to the thread topic of Iran:
1953, Iran; a CIA operation that was aimed at destroying and taking over a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government and restoring the power of the fascistic Shah
2005 to PRESENT, Iran; the US government passes the "Iran Freedom and Support Act" after the failed attempt to create an ally puppet state the US government decides it just need to throw more money at supporting rebel groups and "freedom fighters" to the tune of over $400 MILLION.
As for Iran's record of foreign intervention all there seems to be are allegations with no real evidence to back up such claims.
Looking at this list I am just absolutely ecstatic to know that the US government and it's blind supporter believe they are in any sort of position telling others that they are too dangerous to be trusted with nuclear weapons.
I took the liberty of picking out the items from your anti-America rant that relate to this thread. Gee, I just don't see the justification for all of Iran's terrorism globally based on the list that's relevant. Are you saying Iran is using the totality of the US's foreign involvement to rationalize their attacks? I was unaware they were the guardians of the world against the US. And to use random acts of death and destruction against civilians to terrorize the public against the US is just brilliant!
If you want to start another thread to discuss the imperialistic acts of the US in the last century that justifies retribution by the countries affected, then that's an option. But to list foreign involvement in other countries OTHER THAN IRAN is completely irrational. The list I gave identified the reasons Iran is not to be trusted with nukes. Based on your comments, you seem to believe the bad acts of other countries outweigh the horrors inflicted on the world by Iran.
If we go by your standards, we might as well open a nuke store and sell them to all nations who can afford the price. Responsibility and stated objectives like wiping other nations from the face of the Earth make no difference. If you do heroin, then you should allow your teenage son to do it, too. Otherwise you're a hypocrite.
Sad there are people who can't see past their own biases and rationally identify a bad situation before it's too late.
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They didn't create ISIS. We did. Now Bibi wants to start World War 3. He was wrong about Iraq, and he's wrong about this.
It would make a wonderful cover for the imminent financial collapse that's coming. That way all the war pigs who sunk our national treasure into F-35's and losing war after war could maintain their grip on power just long enough to lock down the newly formed surveillance//security state into a fascist dictatorship. It won't work, of course, but that doesn't mean they won't try anyway and get a whole lot of people killed in the process.
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They didn't create ISIS. We did. Now Bibi wants to start World War 3. He was wrong about Iraq, and he's wrong about this.
It would make a wonderful cover for the imminent financial collapse that's coming. That way all the war pigs who sunk our national treasure into F-35's and losing war after war could maintain their grip on power just long enough to lock down the newly formed surveillance//security state into a fascist dictatorship. It won't work, of course, but that doesn't mean they won't try anyway and get a whole lot of people killed in the process.
Bibi is going to PREVENT WWIII. If he waits for Iran to have nukes, WWIII is inevitable, and Israel will be the first casualty. If Israel can prevent Iran from developing their nuclear capability by taking out their facilities, Iran will not have the military might to wage war for long. Israel has a better chance of survival if they strike early.
It's one thing when you are threatened with annihilation. It's a totally different situation when those making the threats also have the means and the will to use it.
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We're the only ones who have used nukes in actual warfare. Their purpose is a deterrent, and maybe if Iran had some we would finally leave them alone. It's better than getting bossed around by some monstrous little apartheid state that refuses to get along with it's neighbors and expects us to continually pick up the tab for it's burned bridges and psychotic aggression.
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you don't get to ignore the actions of the US government when the US government is the one that is going to be enforcing the nuclear ban on Iran.
Calling out terrible US government decisions for being terrible isn't anti-American, it's being realistic and objective about the events leading to the current situation. The argument to prevent Iran from getting a nuke is framed as if the US has the moral high ground when in reality it's committed much farther reaching and widespread acts of terrorism.
Which also brings us to what do you exactly consider to be the definition of terrorism? Every single one of my examples are a perfect match to the US government definition of terrorism.
How many decades has Iran been only a few years away from building a nuke? Why would the US have to fear Iran using the bomb on anyone if the US didn't sponsor terrorism inside their country?
(http://i.imgur.com/uYFmJPG.jpg)
This image was 3 years ago! If Iran was at 90% then, what percentage are they at now to still be "five years away" from finishing the bomb.
Notice that my position does not frame either side as right or wrong. it points out the fallacy of the US pretending to be the sole authority on who gets to own nukes based on their previous actions. That very same standard should be applied and the Nuclear arsenal of the US should be dismantled and taken for fear of the US launching nukes on defenseless countries around the world.
Maybe the US govt should stop blowing people up with drone strikes. Maybe the US government should stop the economic sanctions against other countries and making the life of the people harder while having no impact on the leadership. Maybe the US government should stop setting up and supporting dictatorships when they claim to be against those very same elements. Maybe the US government should stop sponsoring terrorism with in Iranian borders. Maybe the US government should stop trying to be the world police when they can't even do their own job properly at home.
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you don't get to ignore the actions of the US government when the US government is the one that is going to be enforcing the nuclear ban on Iran.
Calling out terrible US government decisions for being terrible isn't anti-American, it's being realistic and objective about the events leading to the current situation. The argument to prevent Iran from getting a nuke is framed as if the US has the moral high ground when in reality it's committed much farther reaching and widespread acts of terrorism.
So, if not the US, then who do you nominate to take the moral high ground? Remember, we have a United Nations that is involved as well. Iran is doing exactly what Iraq did with the WMD inspections. They are thumbing their nose at the UN, and refusing to allow inspections and oversight. You think the UN has the might and will to enforce their mandates on Iran. If so, I refer you to all the other UN sanctions and military operations that have failed miserably.
Again, if you think one's history negates their ability to make moral decisions, you are a bigger hypocrite than the US as you have painted us.
There is no single nation in the world without some kind of sin. So what's your answer to that? Global Anarchy? Might makes right? Isolationism?
You have nothing but accusations, bias, finger-pointing, and arguments against anyone's proposed solutions, all based on your personal belief that only he who is without sin may cast the first stone. That and turning the other cheek will only make you a victim. Evil exists, and you taking the moral stance that you are not innocent enough to judge another is just delusional, if not 100% infantile and naive.
So far you have bashed every logical explanation about the Iranian Nuclear Development program.
Tell us, what do YOU propose?
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Seems the world was in this situation once before. The side in power was all for appeasement in the name of peace....... Where did that lead? ??? ??
(http://www.familyholiday.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/World-War-2-Holocaust-Memorial-Day-_60.jpg)
Only now the weapons used will be 1000X more effective.
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Calling me an isolationist for not wanting to bomb other countries and fund terrorist groups is like complain that your neighbor is a shitty person because they don't break into your house and steal from your fridge.
The fact of the matter is the no one has the right to tell others what to do.
I have made no accusations and only offer facts in the matter. The real accusations are from the side of the argument that accuses Iran of wanting nukes only to be used in an offensive manner when the only country in the world to have ever done such a thing is factually and unquestionably the US government.
Instead of punishing people economically, since economic sanctions only hurt the people more than it ever will to a government.
The best way to create peaceful, prosperous, and healthy relations with other nations is to participate in free trade. A nation that is included and participates in the free exchange of goods and services is far less likely to be an irrational actor when they have the amenities and comforts provided by the peaceful voluntary trade. The USA has the most power political, cultural, and economic ability in the world. You don't need a military to force people to want to buy things. Government bans don't stop peopel from wanting to buy things, in fact bans usually make people want to buy them even more.
The only proper and true solution to the middle east is for the problem of western intervention to stop giving people a reason to want to fight and start giving them a reason to want to do trade with us.
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(http://i.imgur.com/uCQ4cEG.jpg)
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Calling me an isolationist for not wanting to bomb other countries and fund terrorist groups is like complain that your neighbor is a shitty person because they don't break into your house and steal from your fridge.
The fact of the matter is the no one has the right to tell others what to do.
I have made no accusations and only offer facts in the matter. The real accusations are from the side of the argument that accuses Iran of wanting nukes only to be used in an offensive manner when the only country in the world to have ever done such a thing is factually and unquestionably the US government.
Instead of punishing people economically, since economic sanctions only hurt the people more than it ever will to a government.
The best way to create peaceful, prosperous, and healthy relations with other nations is to participate in free trade. A nation that is included and participates in the free exchange of goods and services is far less likely to be an irrational actor when they have the amenities and comforts provided by the peaceful voluntary trade. The USA has the most power political, cultural, and economic ability in the world. You don't need a military to force people to want to buy things. Government bans don't stop peopel from wanting to buy things, in fact bans usually make people want to buy them even more.
The only proper and true solution to the middle east is for the problem of western intervention to stop giving people a reason to want to fight and start giving them a reason to want to do trade with us.
There is no way to discuss this topic if you truly believe that on a local and global scale.
I'll be by your house tonight to take what I want and do whatever I want to the residents. Don't forget -- you have no right to tell me I can't.
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Calling me an isolationist for not wanting to bomb other countries and fund terrorist groups is like complain that your neighbor is a shitty person because they don't break into your house and steal from your fridge.
The fact of the matter is the no one has the right to tell others what to do.
I have made no accusations and only offer facts in the matter. The real accusations are from the side of the argument that accuses Iran of wanting nukes only to be used in an offensive manner when the only country in the world to have ever done such a thing is factually and unquestionably the US government.
Instead of punishing people economically, since economic sanctions only hurt the people more than it ever will to a government.
The best way to create peaceful, prosperous, and healthy relations with other nations is to participate in free trade. A nation that is included and participates in the free exchange of goods and services is far less likely to be an irrational actor when they have the amenities and comforts provided by the peaceful voluntary trade. The USA has the most power political, cultural, and economic ability in the world. You don't need a military to force people to want to buy things. Government bans don't stop peopel from wanting to buy things, in fact bans usually make people want to buy them even more.
The only proper and true solution to the middle east is for the problem of western intervention to stop giving people a reason to want to fight and start giving them a reason to want to do trade with us.
The Muslims have a religion that prevents them from following your ideals, because they DO want to tell us what to do! Until you fix that little problem, stop laying all the guilt at the US's doorstep! They will hate the US and Israel for centuries, because they believe we are the Big and Little Satans. No amount of trying to get along will alter that warped opinion of us.
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Seems the world was in this situation once before. The side in power was all for appeasement in the name of peace....... Where did that lead? ??? ??
(http://www.familyholiday.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/World-War-2-Holocaust-Memorial-Day-_60.jpg)
Only now the weapons used will be 1000X more effective.
Iran is not Nazi Germany, Iran isn't occupying Israel and forcing the Israeli citizens into concentration camps
If you want to discuss old irrelevant events that have nothing to do with the parties involved I could bring up countless massacres committed by the US government and it's sponsored "allies".
Is this a discussion about Nazi Germany or Iran?
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Iran is not Nazi Germany, Iran isn't occupying Israel and forcing the Israeli citizens into concentration camps
If you want to discuss old irrelevant events that have nothing to do with the parties involved I could bring up countless massacres committed by the US government and it's sponsored "allies".
Is this a discussion about Nazi Germany or Iran?
That's true, because Israel is able to defend herself. Had the Jews prior to WWi and WWII had that capability, the concentration camps would have never existed.
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There is no way to discuss this topic if you truly believe that on a local and global scale.
I'll be by your house tonight to take what I want and do whatever I want to the residents. Don't forget -- you have no right to tell me I can't.
You are most welcome to attempt doing whatever you want involving coming onto my property and taking my things against my own will but you should remember that this is a gun owner related forum and I will use whatever force necessary to prevent the threat of your actions on my property and not even a second before you actually begin to initiate aggression upon me will I preemptively shoot you just because of your publicly made statements declared on this forum.
The Muslims have a religion that prevents them from following your ideals, because they DO want to tell us what to do! Until you fix that little problem, stop laying all the guilt at the US's doorstep! They will hate the US and Israel for centuries, because they believe we are the Big and Little Satans. No amount of trying to get along will alter that warped opinion of us.
This is a discussion about Iran, not Islam. Are you assuming that Iran only allows muslims to live in Iran?
Iran used to be on good relations with the western world, right up until the western world decided to fund the destruction of their government. Once again I'm not claiming anyone good or bad. They both have taken actions, but you can't claim the actions of Iran count against it while the actions of the US govt do not count at all.
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That's true, because Israel is able to defend herself. Had the Jews prior to WWi and WWII had that capability, the concentration camps would have never existed.
Had the Hawaiians prior to annexation had that capability, the occupation of Hawaii would have never existed.
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As a side note what is with the 2 faced coin of the US government not being considered you when it comes to infringing gun rights. Yet when the question is asked to go to war to support the illusion of Pax Americana the US Government is now "we and us"?
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You are most welcome to attempt doing whatever you want involving coming onto my property and taking my things against my own will but you should remember that this is a gun owner related forum and I will use whatever force necessary to prevent the threat of your actions on my property and not even a second before you actually begin to initiate aggression upon me will I preemptively shoot you just because of your publicly made statements declared on this forum.
This is a discussion about Iran, not Islam. Are you assuming that Iran only allows muslims to live in Iran?
Iran used to be on good relations with the western world, right up until the western world decided to fund the destruction of their government. Once again I'm not claiming anyone good or bad. They both have taken actions, but you can't claim the actions of Iran count against it while the actions of the US govt do not count at all.
Oh, so it's okay to take my life if I threaten you? Who is taking the "MORAL HIGH GROUND" now? Have you never sinned in your life? Have you never lied, stolen or hurt anyone? According to your rants, you can't judge my actions if you have ever done anything wrong in your life.
"no one has the right to tell others what to do"
So, now you are telling me I can't do what I want? Hypocritical, to say the least!
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Oh, so it's okay to take my life if I threaten you? Who is taking the "MORAL HIGH GROUND" now? Have you never sinned in your life? Have you never lied, stolen or hurt anyone? According to your rants, you can't judge my actions if you have ever done anything wrong in your life.
So, now you are telling me I can't do what I want? Hypocritical, to say the least!
I see you follow the school of absurdity and poor reading comprehension.
I'll break it down barney style for you.
If you engage in a aggressive manner on me or my property I will use force to stop you while you are in the act.
If all you do is talk about attacking me I'm gonna keep an eye on you, but I'm not gonna start shooting you just because an uneducated toddler is mad he isn't getting his way.
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I see you follow the school of absurdity and poor reading comprehension.
I'll break it down barney style for you.
If you engage in a aggressive manner on me or my property I will use force to stop you while you are in the act.
If all you do is talk about attacking me I'm gonna keep an eye on you, but I'm not gonna start shooting your just because an uneducated toddler is mad he isn't getting his way.
Why do you reserve the right to self defense for yourself, but you criticize Israel for their efforts to do the same?
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Why do you reserve the right to self defense for yourself, but you criticize Israel for their efforts to do the same?
why do you consider preemptive attacks with self defense?
do you approve that HPD should start shooting everyone that applies for a firearms permit since they might use it to murder someone?
Should the ATF raid everyone that ever buys an 80% lower since there is a possibility that they might make a machine gun out of it?
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The flaw of those defending Iran is that people assume everyone thinks and plays by the same rules.
If Muslims extremists lay down their arms, there will be peace in the Middle East.
If Israel lays down their arms, they will cease to exist.
You cannot trade and negotiate with terrorist.
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You should also take a note from your own signature quote as a reflective learning experience that rights do not stop at the US borders.
Can our form of government, our system of justice, survive if one can be denied a freedom because he might abuse it? - Harlon Carter
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The flaw of those defending Iran is that people assume everyone thinks and plays by the same rules.
If Muslims extremists lay down their arms, there will be peace in the Middle East.
If Israel lays down their arms, they will cease to exist.
Are we talking about muslim extremists or are we talking about Iran?
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Are we talking about muslim extremists or are we talking about Iran?
For this discussion, since Iran's leadership does not recognize Israel's right to exist and calls for their destruction, what is the difference?
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obviously we have an obama and isis sympathizer here.
same thoughts and beliefs as them.
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why do you consider preemptive attacks with self defense?
do you approve that HPD should start shooting everyone that applies for a firearms permit since they might use it to murder someone?
Should the ATF raid everyone that ever buys an 80% lower since there is a possibility that they might make a machine gun out of it?
No, but if the applicant makes public threats to "wipe someone off the map," I do expect HPD to deny them a gun!
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For this discussion, since Iran's leadership does not recognize Israel's right to exist and calls for their destruction, what is the difference?
because Israel still exists and Iran hasn't invaded or bombed it.
Am I a domestic terrorist because I do not believe in the ATF's right to exist and calls for their removal, what's the difference?
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No, but if the applicant makes public threats to "wipe someone off the map," I do expect HPD to deny them a gun!
Free speech applies to everyone and threats with no actual evidence of aggression made are not proof of violence.
obviously we have an obama and isis sympathizer here.
same thoughts and beliefs as them.
Ah yes i must be your most hated and easy to fight strawmen since i do not agree with bombing people and economic strangulation... although it seems Obama and ISIS love to do those very same things.
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Free speech applies to everyone and threats with no actual evidence of aggression made are not proof of violence.
Ah yes i must be your most hated and easy to fight strawmen since i do not agree with bombing people and economic strangulation... although it seems Obama and ISIS love to do those very same things.
we'll add to your description: fence walker.
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because Israel still exists and Iran hasn't invaded or bombed it.
Am I a domestic terrorist because I do not believe in the ATF's right to exist and calls for their removal, what's the difference?
The ATF is not a sovereign nation. Nice strawman argument. Your comparisons of apples to oranges are turning into a fruit salad!!
The ATF is not a sovereign entity, even though at times they may act like it.
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Free speech applies to everyone and threats with no actual evidence of aggression made are not proof of violence.
Ah yes i must be your most hated and easy to fight strawmen since i do not agree with bombing people and economic strangulation... although it seems Obama and ISIS love to do those very same things.
I guess the term "terroristic threatening" is just a made-up phrase with no legal meaning?
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we'll add to your description: fence walker.
Yet another label since i am neither for you or with your opposition this clearly means that black and white are the only realities are you or those of your opponent.
dangerous words in dangerous times, much like when the benevolent George W. Bush said, "If you aren't with us you're against us."
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I guess the term "terroristic threatening" is just a made-up phrase with no legal meaning?
So you agree that the US government should face consequence for the actions it has caused all over the world with it plots to overthrow sovereign nations?
The ATF is not a sovereign nation. Nice strawman argument. Your comparisons of apples to oranges are turning into a fruit salad!!
The ATF is not a sovereign entity, even though at times they may act like it.
oh but the ATF is a part of the US government and derives its authority from those very documents that establish the USA as a sovereign nation with the free will to determine it's own fate.
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Free speech applies to everyone and threats with no actual evidence of aggression made are not proof of violence.
Ah yes i must be your most hated and easy to fight strawmen since i do not agree with bombing people and economic strangulation... although it seems Obama and ISIS love to do those very same things.
Free speech doesn't mean speech of any sort void of any consequences.
You have a right to voice your opinion. Calls for violence, even in the absence of actual physical violence, is not protected speech.
Freedom of speech is intended to allow the people to criticize government without fear of reprisal, NOT to protect people whose words might incite violence and cause death and destruction.
You might have your opinions, but that doesn't mean I have an obligation to listen or accept them.
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So you agree that the US government should face consequence for the actions it has caused all over the world with it plots to overthrow sovereign nations?
oh but the ATF is a part of the US government and derives its authority from those very documents that establish the USA as a sovereign nation with the free will to determine it's own fate.
You are just talking crazy now.
And you keep trying to change the subject. The topic is about Iran, not the US and her past "crimes" as you see them.
Try to focus. Maybe it's time for your meds?
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Free speech doesn't mean speech of any sort void of any consequences.
You have a right to voice your opinion. Calls for violence, even in the absence of actual physical violence, is not protected speech.
Freedom of speech is intended to allow the people to criticize government without fear of reprisal, NOT to protect people whose words might incite violence and cause death and destruction.
You might have your opinions, but that doesn't mean I have an obligation to listen or accept them.
Indeed all speech is covered by free speech. because you can see the US government do quite the same everyday to places it does not favor. In fact the US goes a step further and attacks others that it does not like.
Remember i am not endorsing either side in the party and do not expect me to be won over. This is philosophical and moral stand on ending the cycle of Israeli fear mongering against the Iran and the US government spending billions of dollars each year only to create more aggression and hate between nations.
As has been stated Israel defends itself. SELF DEFENSE IS NOT Israel or the US government going into Iran and bombing targets and creating even more political upheaval. The second I hear about someone other than the USA having used a nuke offensively then by all means do whatever is necessary.
Killing someone because they say things you don't like is not self defense, it is the same as terrorists bombing and shooting up cartoonists for drawing things they don't like.
You are just talking crazy now.
And you keep trying to change the subject. The topic is about Iran, not the US and her past "crimes" as you see them.
Try to focus. Maybe it's time for your meds?
Maybe there would be no worry about the past crimes of the US if the accusation of past crimes by Iran weren't also used as a basis for US intervention in Iran. Israel will not be one the invading Iran to enforce this nuclear ban. It will be US troops paid for by US taxes.
I've personally served in these foolish wars and seen that we aren't protecting any American freedoms. We're spending billions of dollars and losing the lives of thousands for corporate profits and foreign interests while our government unceasingly spends more and more money.
FOR DECADES Israel has made claims of Iranian nuclear capability and for decades Iran has done nothing.
This is nothing but fools warmongering that the lives of others be put on the line for the defense of non-American interests. If you claim the US Constitution is there to tell the government to protect American borders and American citizens then why must they act for a nation that does not pay taxes to the US government?
These are the FACTS
The US has been an aggressor against Iran since the late 40s
The US shot down and absolved itself of the US Navy shooting down a commercial passenger airliner that it "confused" for being an F-14
The US continues to finance domestic terrorist groups within Iran
The US continues to force other nations to abide by it's absurd economic sanction against Iran
The US funded, led, and endorsed the Iraq war against Iran
The US continues to invade, bomb, assassinate, and kidnap people from all over the middle east
The US funds, trains, and arms terrorist groups fighting on the Iranian border of Syria
Every time Iran does something in defense of itself it is declared TERRORISM™ by the US government and you wonder why they they have such anger toward us while conflating it to be religious extremism. I would even go so far as to believe you don't even know that Iran took no part in the six-day war.
With all of this do not preach to me about who is crazy or not because it is sheer insanity to demand that the US taxpayers and US military should bear the responsibility and costs of invading and occupying yet another country that has not made any threats to our borders or liberties. How many more damn wars do the US citizens have to be dragged into until we realize that the Pax Americana is not an ethical model to base our interactions around the world on.
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Dumbest thread of the year.
For the record, the wholesale generalization of muslims as extremists does no one favors and. Dont be a bigot.
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Dumbest thread of the year.
For the record, the wholesale generalization of muslims as extremists does no one favors and. Dont be a bigot.
For the record, no one has done that in this thread that I recall.
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FOR DECADES Israel has made claims of Iranian nuclear capability and for decades Iran has done nothing.
Not JUST Israel. You didn't read the long post I pasted with all the intel reports and state department assessments decade after decade, not to mention Russia providing technology and assistance in defiance of sanctions. Iran is not "doing nothing."
The threat is real. Why do million have to die from a nuclear blast for you to believe it? Why are you willing to stand idly by while Iran works toward the creation of nuclear weapons? Meanwhile Obama is REDUCING the inventory of US nukes to a pre-Cold War level.
When the Iranians pray publicly for the destruction of not just Israel, but every Jew on Earth, I consider that a "threat", not just "something I don't like to hear".
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Not JUST Israel. You didn't read the long post I pasted with all the intel reports and state department assessments decade after decade, not to mention Russia providing technology and assistance in defiance of sanctions. Iran is not "doing nothing."
The threat is real. Why do million have to die from a nuclear blast for you to believe it? Why are you willing to stand idly by while Iran works toward the creation of nuclear weapons? Meanwhile Obama is REDUCING the inventory of US nukes to a pre-Cold War level.
When the Iranians pray publicly for the destruction of not just Israel, but every Jew on Earth, I consider that a "threat", not just "something I don't like to hear".
Why do the police need to have probable cause before getting a warrant? Were the actions of the US government justified in the Waco seige because a group of Christians were praying and preparing for the end of days to come? Is the US government justified in raiding the homes of people that purchase weapons to defend themselves from government tyranny?
If Iran truly hates Jews and wants to kill them all why haven't they purged them from within their own country? This is not an act of antisemitism as "bibi" would have you believe. The irrational belief that threatening attack another country before it attacks you is going to fix things is mind numbingly illogical. There are Jewish organizations that will and do protest the fear mongering of the Israel lobby and they condemn any preemptive action taken Iran in the name of Israel.
It is not an never will be the job of the US government to send young Americans to die involuntarily for the defense of another nation. if people want so badly to take part in such actions they can go to Israel themselves. Your list of accusations and US court trials performed absentia of Iran being there to defend themselves is not proof of anything and boils down to being nothing more than an echo chamber of war mongering set against nothing more than a strawman in the hopes of fooling the public into believing that Iran is the aggressor in this conflict.
How many US men and women are you willing to send to die in Iran for Israel?
How many men are you ready to call up through the draft to occupy Iran?
How many more broken men and women are you willing to see come home from yet another war that served no defense of American sovereignty?
How many more years of war do you want the War on Terror* to last?
How many other countries do you want to drag into this war with the US government?
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Don't feed the troll.
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Don't feed the troll.
Is that what you can a rational objective argument with actual understandings of the tensions leading to the situation we currently have?
Is that what you call a person that actually questions your unwavering dedication to a foreign interest?
I could just as easily demand the US declare war on China to protect Taiwan and the Philippines from the threat of Chinese invasion, which actually has the Chinese setting up naval bases on the territorial waters of the Philippines and the fact that China already has nukes and they have thee capabilities to launch them to around the globe. With an actual history of invading both nations. BUT I DON'T, because war is the easiest answer with the highest price.
Everyone here has seen the claims of Israel being the civilized man, but the civilized man does not strike first.
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Why do the police need to have probable cause before getting a warrant? Were the actions of the US government justified in the Waco seige because a group of Christians were praying and preparing for the end of days to come? Is the US government justified in raiding the homes of people that purchase weapons to defend themselves from government tyranny?
If Iran truly hates Jews and wants to kill them all why haven't they purged them from within their own country? This is not an act of antisemitism as "bibi" would have you believe. The irrational belief that threatening attack another country before it attacks you is going to fix things is mind numbingly illogical. There are Jewish organizations that will and do protest the fear mongering of the Israel lobby and they condemn any preemptive action taken Iran in the name of Israel.
It is not an never will be the job of the US government to send young Americans to die involuntarily for the defense of another nation. if people want so badly to take part in such actions they can go to Israel themselves. Your list of accusations and US court trials performed absentia of Iran being there to defend themselves is not proof of anything and boils down to being nothing more than an echo chamber of war mongering set against nothing more than a strawman in the hopes of fooling the public into believing that Iran is the aggressor in this conflict.
How many US men and women are you willing to send to die in Iran for Israel?
How many men are you ready to call up through the draft to occupy Iran?
How many more broken men and women are you willing to see come home from yet another war that served no defense of American sovereignty?
How many more years of war do you want the War on Terror* to last?
How many other countries do you want to drag into this war with the US government?
If your objective is to never participate in another war, that's simple!!
1. Change the Constitution so we don't have a legal responsibility to provide for our own defense,
2. Scrap our military.
3. Sell off or destroy every weapon, machine, piece of personal gear, and round of ammunition to foreign buyers (I bet Mexico has a few buyers that we already have their numbers)..
4. Stop all foreign aid to every single non-US entity in all forms.
5. Start requiring more foreign language classes in schools for all students, to include Chinese, Korean, Arabic, and Russian.
Now we just sit back all peaceful and non-interfering while we wait for the first attack. No matter who it is, we'll be prepared to serve our new masters by having the language skills to understand their commands.
And don't say we should just keep enough weapons to defend the US. Just because WE didn't start it doesn't mean we ought to participate in war -- offense or defense matters not!
The objective is to avoid death and wars, so being able to defend our nation is off the table.
I intend to start a new thread: "NOW THAT THE US IS UNDER MUSLIM CONTROL, DO YOU PREFER STONING OR BEHEADING FOR ALL INFIDELS?"
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Aegis808
You are talking to people who are spoonfed propaganda bullshit all day and eat it up like hotcakes. There's no historical, lawful, or moral arguments that can touch their brainwashed consumer caveman logic. At least not until they finally wake up and realize that everything they believe is a lie.
http://youtu.be/eZVv2AOCnaA (http://youtu.be/eZVv2AOCnaA)
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Aegis808
You are talking to people who are spoonfed propaganda bullshit all day and eat it up like hotcakes. There's no historical, lawful, or moral arguments that can touch their brainwashed consumer caveman logic. At least not until they finally wake up and realize that everything they believe is a lie.
http://youtu.be/eZVv2AOCnaA (http://youtu.be/eZVv2AOCnaA)
I'm on the same page with you hvy.
It is embarrassing to see that my words have not hit their intended mark. I only wish my concepts could be heard with better clarity.
I must have confused this forum to be a place filled with rational adults capable of making logical thought patterns based on facts and evidence. Only to find I am rebutted by viritol and appeals to empathy. The blatantly xenophobic attitude toward free and open trade, save nothing to mention the amount of blind nationalism toward a government most here seem to be in agreement about being over reaching and completely unaccountable to their own actions when it comes to gun rights.
All logic and rational thinking seems to be thrown out the window at the mere hint that our "democratic" "ally" Israel is possibly in danger from a threat that has never attacked it.
When it comes time for the US government to work "together" with allies in the nation you don't ever see the IDF in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebannon, UAE, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Libya, or Egypt.
So hungry for war you all are. You want war you go there your own, and take your family with you.
Smedley Butler and Dwight Eisenhower saw the dangers that our military was becoming and how it no longer served the interests of the American public.
War is a racket and the fools advocating for it that get no benefit from it are the ones that drag us all along while waving the flag and hiding behind it at the same time.
If we go to war with Iran the US government will have to call for the draft.
Another generation of men will go off to die in a foreign land far from the land they swore to protect.
Another war will go down in history where the US gains no territory and withdraws in disgrace.
The national debt will only grow larger
Millions will die
while nationalist will say,
"we never lost because we killed more of them than they killed us, we spent more money than they did."
"we were there to build a democracy"
"we were to heavily invested to turn back"
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The point is you tried, and are still trying. People who wake up to this level of betrayal tend to either drink themselves to death or lash out like wounded animals. It's better to introduce the concepts now and hope something sticks rather than scrape 'em off the sidewalk once empire runs it's inevitable course. At least you're not on the Mainland. God help those poor unfortunate souls.
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For the record, no one has done that in this thread that I recall.
i didnt say anyone did that, but its happened before on this board in past times that israel was brought up (and whne it hasnt). it was a warning not a response.
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i didnt say anyone did that, but its happened before on this board in past times that israel was brought up (and whne it hasnt). it was a warning not a response.
Just fanning the flames again .... as usual.
I believe the label for that is "trolling."
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Just fanning the flames again .... as usual.
I believe the label for that is "trolling."
i am not doing this to piss people off. its not trolling. i said it merely because i've topics like this get ugly, and we all know outside people read this.
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i am not doing this to piss people off. its not trolling. i said it merely because i've topics like this get ugly, and we all know outside people read this.
So, nobody in this thread mentioned "the wholesale generalization of muslims as extremists" until you brought it up.
Glad you prevented that embarrassment!!
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So, nobody in this thread mentioned "the wholesale generalization of muslims as extremists" until you brought it up.
Glad you prevented that embarrassment!!
Jesus. because i was profiling them right? so embarrassing. ::) ::)
not everything has to be a petty argument.
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Jesus. because i was profiling them right? so embarrassing. ::) ::)
not everything has to be a petty argument.
I'm not arguing, other than to call you out for making a troll-worthy comment. I didn't appreciate you making accusatory comments about being bigoted when that wasn't happening in any way, shape or form. I considered that rather insulting, actually.
Why not go ahead and warn of making disparaging remarks about
Gays,
Blacks,
The Handicapped,
Old People,
Any Religion, and
Any Nationality?
If you're truly worried about embarrassing remarks, then don't stop with Muslim Extremists. We haven't posted any bigoted remarks about those other groups either, but you know that would be just as embarrassing!
:wacko:
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just so long as everyone is discussing generalizations of who is a terrorist nation
(http://i.imgur.com/XHyElKv.png)
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I thought they were talking about trolls?
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I prefer to not get involved in these emotion charged discussions. However, Aegis said a couple of things I want to address here. I have a few close friends that are refuges from Iran (Actually they consider themselves Persians). I also have some friends and family that are refuges from the former USSR and present day Russia. Not to mention I have close family members that are still alive that lived through the holocaust at Auschwitz and I have close family members that presently live in Israel. And for the most part they all tell me similar stories. I have no reason to doubt them nor do I doubt their stories.
If Iran truly hates Jews and wants to kill them all why haven't they purged them from within their own country? This is not an act of antisemitism as "bibi" would have you believe. The irrational belief that threatening attack another country before it attacks you is going to fix things is mind numbingly illogical. There are Jewish organizations that will and do protest the fear mongering of the Israel lobby and they condemn any preemptive action taken Iran in the name of Israel.
There are two parts to the leadership in Iran. Political and Spiritual/Religious. Unfortunately, the political portion is controlled and is a puppet to the Religious part. Iran as a government does not "hate" Jews. I am not sure how a political entity can "Hate" anything. But if you look at Iran's history you will see hundreds of years of Jewish persecution and Jewish Genocide. And at some times, Jewish support. Speaking in the present. The reality of the stories I am told are that most of the Jews have to stay within their neighborhoods. And it is common for any Jew who wanders outside their areas to be stoned to death. Also, it is not uncommon for Jews to just disappear or to be taken by the police when they are open about communicating with Jews in Israel. For the most part they cannot be seen as Jewish when they leave their neighborhoods. They have to hide their religious beliefs when not around other Jews. While the government outwardly does not condemn Jews they are treated as second class citizens. But the real persecution comes from the religious leaders. The ones that control the government and the country as a whole. So the official stand on Jews by the government is acceptable to the world. And specifically our politicians. But the religious leaders feel that they can get away with spewing their vitriol towards Jews and Israel. The religious leaders want to have Jews killed because they teach their Sharia Law that all Jews are filthy lower than dog shit scum. SInce the majority of the Iranian population is muslim they also believe that all Jews are filthy lower than dog shit scum. Persecution of Jews while not legal per the government, is accepted and encouraged by the religious leaders.
We are negotiating a nuclear treaty with Iran's supreme religious leader through a government puppet. The Ayatollah Khomeini is Iran's supreme religious leader and leader of the country. He himself has threatened Israel with total annihilation. He Tweeted it in English. How many people in Iran can read English? How many even have Internet access? And of those how many have access to Twitter? He is threatening Israel directly by doing this. He teaches hate and persecution towards the lower than dog shit scum Jews. He encourages stoning and killing of Jews. He is playing our political leaders in the same way you state our scripted news agencies play us. Our politicians deal strictly with the Iranian government and ignores the religious aspects even though it is a well known fact they are one in the same. To do so could jeopardize the lives of innocent Jews in Israel. We all have to agree that the religious leaders want Israel wiped off the map. You cannot argue with that. Taking into consideration the radical and mind numbingly illogical behavior of radical muslims and radical muslim religious leaders such as Iran's leader you should take them at their word. They are evil people and evil people commit atrocities. Allow them to develop nuclear weapons and Iran will use them in the same way a radical muslim suicide bomber kills as many Jews as he can in Israel. Our goverment is making Iran's desire to wipe Israel and Jews off the map a reality.
I don't know about you, but I lost almost 100 relatives in the holocaust. I take all threats of genocide seriously. Obviously, Israel does as well. As should our government.
You state that it is irrational to think a preemptive strike won't solve the problem. And it is mind numbingly illogical to think it will. Actually the truth is you are right it won't solve the problem of Jewish persecution and hatred. But that is not the problem that Israel is trying to solve. They realize that there is going to be Jew hatred no matter what they say or do. History proves that. They are trying to solve the problem of Jewish Genocide. And as much as you would like to argue, the fact is a preemptive strike will at a minimum keep Jewish Genocide from occurring for an extended period of time.
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just so long as everyone is discussing generalizations of who is a terrorist nation
(http://i.imgur.com/XHyElKv.png)
Well it can't be the US that is a terrorist nation in this case. A terrorist nation would not have agreed with the International Court of Justice and pay reparations to Iran for what happened. A terrorist nation does not recognize the International Court nor would they abide by the findings of the court. Just because we did not verbally apologize for what occurred. We did the right thing and paid reparations to Iran and the families of the dead. When you post these emotion jarring graphics without telling the whole story it is like lying. If you tell the whole truth it seems like the US is not a terrorist nation after all in this case. You lose a lot of credibility when you post crap like this.
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Well it can't be the US that is a terrorist nation in this case. A terrorist nation would not have agreed with the International Court of Justice and pay reparations to Iran for what happened. A terrorist nation does not recognize the International Court nor would they abide by the findings of the court. Just because we did not verbally apologize for what occurred. We did the right thing and paid reparations to Iran and the families of the dead. When you post these emotion jarring graphics without telling the whole story it is like lying. If you tell the whole truth it seems like the US is not a terrorist nation after all in this case. You lose a lot of credibility when you post crap like this.
:thumbsup:
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Why not go ahead and warn of making disparaging remarks about
Gays,
Blacks,
The Handicapped,
Old People,
Any Religion, and
Any Nationality?
Totally out of context but OK. I'll bite.
Please don't make disparaging remarks about the above. (Unless it's truly how you feel then we'll know how you roll...homophobe, racist, religious extremist (Muslim, Christian or otherwise), extreme Nationalist. I don't even know what to call a person who rips on the handicapped.
I appreciate the centrist, more liberal comments on this forum for discussion.
Also, Why would we pay reparations and not apologize ? How is that the right thing ?
Yeah. We killed your parents, your kids, your brother and sister....but We're not sorry. Here's a few bucks. Now we feel better.
Yeah we struck numerous civilians in multiple countries with mistaken drone, missile and artillery strikes but we are not terrorists. We're just trying to do the right thing.
Anything can be spun and the whole story is hard to tell if no one has the whole story. Try to view it from the other people's shoes.
Damn. Got to go put on my tinfoil hat.
:stopjack:
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(http://i.imgur.com/HLbYxw2.jpg)
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I don't even know what to call a person who rips on the handicapped.
sad. you call them sad.
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(http://i.imgur.com/HLbYxw2.jpg)
Now that's back on topic.
:rofl:
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THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD
http://youtu.be/JOtzWwmaGfM (http://youtu.be/JOtzWwmaGfM)
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Also, Why would we pay reparations and not apologize ? How is that the right thing ?
Yeah. We killed your parents, your kids, your brother and sister....but We're not sorry. Here's a few bucks. Now we feel better.
Yeah we struck numerous civilians in multiple countries with mistaken drone, missile and artillery strikes but we are not terrorists. We're just trying to do the right thing.
Anything can be spun and the whole story is hard to tell if no one has the whole story. Try to view it from the other people's shoes.
AH,
I cannot speak for the US or the president at that time. I won't try and defend the US as to how it acted at the time this incident occurred. I only vaguely remember this incident. I don't know how or why this incident occurred. I can only give you my opinion for what it is worth. So if the US could have given an apology or reparations or an apology with reparations then I think we should have done both. If I had a loved one that was killed by another country and given the choice of an apology or reparations I would take the reparations. Given the relationship and the events that had occurred 20-30 years prior up until the incident and the tensions between the two countries at that time, I am not surprised that we did not apologize. That does not mean it was the right thing to do. WIth that said, for the US to honor the findings of the court which has no jurisdiction over the US (Hell, I am not sure we even recognize it) I believe that paying reparations is tantamount to admitting guilt. I compare it to the choice we have in court when we are accused of a crime. We can plead No Contest which is saying punish me as you like but I won't admit I am guilty. Under our law if you plead No Contest you are considered guilty. So it is accepting guilt with out the verbal admission of such. Considering we have no control over what happened 20 years ago I believe what we did was the right thing. Could we have done better by apologizing as well? Yes, I believe we could have done better. Consider the other option was doing nothing. We did something, right. Maybe not enough but it is what we did.
While innocent citizens are suseptible to being killed during a war, I am not saying it is right or wrong. I respect how you feel about the innocent Iranians being killed. I have had many deep discussions with some of my family that has the same views as you stated here. And while I understand how you feel I don't necessarily agree.
I won't comment on the rest of your comments except that I consider myself a centrist. Even centrists have opinions that can be strong one way or the other. We don't always stay in the center. It doesn't mean we are right or wrong. I think you and the others would be surprised as to how I feel about some of the other subjects that have been discussed here. I agree more often with HVYBARRELS and AEGIS808 and others more than they know. I just choose not to get involved in most of this type of discussion. If it means anything I am an Independent voter. I know that no matter how hard I try I am not going to change the minds of most here. So I don't try. I don't identify with the Republicans or Democrats. I used to be a registered Republican and at times I was a registered Democrat. Actually, I despise both parties and I advocate for a three party system even though I doubt I will see it in my lifetime. I try and view things from every viewpoint I can find on the Internet, on the radio, on TV and in the papers. I then decide for myself what I believe is right and what is wrong. I usually keep these views to myself.
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Point well made Inspector.