2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Reloading => Topic started by: oldfart on June 22, 2015, 06:18:40 AM
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9mm 147 grain jhp subsonic ammunition used to be very popular for defensive use.
Is anybody interested in a project to simulate this?
I suppose if we could run supressors this would be more interesting.
The reason that I ask is because I recently stumbled upon some military 147 gr. Subsonic jhp ammo and I thought it was mildly interesting.
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9mm 147 grain jhp subsonic ammunition used to be very popular for defensive use.
Is anybody interested in a project to simulate this?
I suppose if we could run supressors this would be more interesting.
The reason that I ask is because I recently stumbled upon some military 147 gr. Subsonic jhp ammo and I thought it was mildly interesting.
Next to 124gr most of my 9mm semi-autos do very well with 147gr projectiles as far as accuracy is concerned. Before this latest release of self defense ammo came out over the last 2 or 3 years using lighter faster projectiles I preferred 147gr JHP. So I would be interested in any data you might share.
Thanks!
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Next to 124gr most of my 9mm semi-autos do very well with 147gr projectiles as far as accuracy is concerned. Before this latest release of self defense ammo came out over the last 2 or 3 years using lighter faster projectiles I preferred 147gr JHP. So I would be interested in any data you might share.
Thanks!
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Ya know 20 something years ago hpd was using winchester q4217 so I simulated that load.
Today, I can't find that bullet or the powder that I used.
So this would be a whole new round of tests using whatever is available today.
If more fellas are interested, I'll do it.
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im interested with this data as well. i bought a speer gold dot 124 gr and 147 for defense
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ops sorry, you were referring to sub sonic load. nvm but still interested
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9mm 147 grain jhp subsonic ammunition used to be very popular for defensive use.
Is anybody interested in a project to simulate this?
I suppose if we could run supressors this would be more interesting.
The reason that I ask is because I recently stumbled upon some military 147 gr. Subsonic jhp ammo and I thought it was mildly interesting.
I've been reloading 124gr hbfp subsonic for a 9mm 1911 that shoots pretty accurate and are reliable. The benefit I see is it's accurate and you can get follow up shots pretty quick compared to normal 9mm loads >1200fps.
Interested to see what you find! You planning on shooting ballistic gel?
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Ya know 20 something years ago hpd was using winchester q4217 so I simulated that load.
Today, I can't find that bullet or the powder that I used.
So this would be a whole new round of tests using whatever is available today.
If more fellas are interested, I'll do it.
Thanks OF,
The Gold Dot Project was very thorough and full of good information. I look forward to seeing this project get started. Assuming enough people are interested.
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Thanks OF,
The Gold Dot Project was very thorough and full of good information. I look forward to seeing this project get started. Assuming enough people are interested.
are 147 gr gold dots sub- or super-sonic?
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are 147 gr gold dots sub- or super-sonic?
The Gold Dot project involved 124gr GD's moving at ~1150 feet per second which are supersonic. But 147gr are usually subsonic.
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The Gold Dot project involved 124gr GD's moving at ~1150 feet per second which are supersonic. But 147gr are usually subsonic.
oh,ok
i guess i'm interested in this too
since i just bought 6 boxes of gold dot 147s
i'll donate the control subject GD 147s
:thumbsup:
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im just wondering, what is the recipe on building a subsonic load? is it heavier bullet for instance 9mm(147 or 165) quickiest powder? on what velocity? The reason i ask is, i went to freedom munition website ( xtreme bullet sister company) and they sell Hush subsonic load. their bullet of choice are 147 and 165 gr. and its posted they are using the cleaniest and quickest powder.
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im just wondering, what is the recipe on building a subsonic load? is it heavier bullet for instance 9mm(147 or 165) quickiest powder? on what velocity? The reason i ask is, i went to freedom munition website ( xtreme bullet sister company) and they sell Hush subsonic load. their bullet of choice are 147 and 165 gr. and its posted they are using the cleaniest and quickest powder.
I've been using berrys 124gr hbfp and had luck with ramshot silhouette and ramshot true blue. Looking at the burn chart at the link below, they're not the fastest powders.
http://www.reloadersnest.com/burnrates.asp (http://www.reloadersnest.com/burnrates.asp)
(Please let me know I'd anyone has a pdf scan of a hard copy, published list of burn rates that they're willing to share)
I tried ramshot competition (faster than true blue and silhouette), but that was only accurate in loads that didn't reliably cycle for me. I considered playing with the 147gr fp, but I quickly became a fan of the hollow base offered with the 124 gr hbfp bullet. It had the similar bearing area against the barrel as a 147gr fp and has more data published for the powders I have.
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im not 100% sure if the chart from reloadersnest.com is accurate. i found this chart from hodgdon website.
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I haven't messed with GD 147's but I do have a little load data on 147 XTP's that I worked up with HP38 that was subsonic out of a 4" M&P and a 5" RIA 1911.
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I have purchased Winchester Defend JHP 147 grain for my 9mm SD round. The performance in these in reviews seem to be stellar. The recoil is very mild. I've read 147 GD's are not too good out of short barrels.
https://youtu.be/KwsVe1fxXLE
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I have purchased Winchester Defend JHP 147 grain for my 9mm SD round. The performance in these in reviews seem to be stellar. The recoil is very mild. I've read 147 GD's are not too good out of short barrels.
https://youtu.be/KwsVe1fxXLE
i tried the 147 GD. for me its a little jumpy on my g34 compare to 124 gr but less noise. i guess next load is to make some 147 gr with the lower load data as my 124 gr. i read some load data from silencer talk and some used 147 gr using 3.5 gr of BE
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i tried the 147 GD. for me its a little jumpy on my g34 compare to 124 gr but less noise. i guess next load is to make some 147 gr with the lower load data as my 124 gr. i read some load data from silencer talk and some used 147 gr using 3.5 gr of BE
I'm right around 3.2gr BE with coated 147's. Still haven't chrono'd them though.
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what kind of velocity are we looking for best result even without a can?
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what kind of velocity are we looking for best result even without a can?
Work up your loads and experiment with your gun. My 9mm 1911 with 5" barrel likes around 980fps for accuracy.
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i did some researched and they said in order to achieve sub sonic load is to be below the speed of sound which is 1,100 fps. so your load is good tailored to your gun.
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I've been reloading 124gr hbfp subsonic for a 9mm 1911 that shoots pretty accurate and are reliable. The benefit I see is it's accurate and you can get follow up shots pretty quick compared to normal 9mm loads >1200fps.
Interested to see what you find! You planning on shooting ballistic gel?
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No ballistic gel.
The purpose of this project is not to find an accurate or deadlier load. Nor is it to find a competition reload.
The purpose is to find a cheap reload that looks and feels like real self defense ammo.
The theory is that if you carry 147 subsonic, then you should practice with 147 subsonic.
A cheap reload would allow you to get accustomed to your self defense gun and ammo without breaking the bank.
Hopefully, a cheap reload that looks and recoils like real self defense ammo will have adequate accuracy for short to medium range practice.
Another consideration is functional reliability. If your defense gun chokes with your realistic practice ammo, then maybe it could choke with real ammo at a bad time. Some magazines will feed ball ammo fine, but choke on hollow points.
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xtreme 147 gr on sale today. either RN, HPCB or hollow point, all 5% off
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xtreme 147 gr on sale today. either RN, HPCB or hollow point, all 5% off
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I guess I'll order some hollow pts. They have a similar profile to win and fc ammo.
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I guess I'll order some hollow pts. They have a similar profile to win and fc ammo.
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Also going to explore some xtreme 357 and 44 bullets to see if the plating can really handle magnum abuse.
Pm'd wirecounter for some ww296 to punish those plated heads. Haven't had some magnum fun for quite a while.
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Also going to explore some xtreme 357 and 44 bullets to see if the plating can really handle magnum abuse.
Pm'd wirecounter for some h110 to punish those plated heads. Haven't had some magnum fun for quite a while.
My buddy had some Berry's Bullets and some no name plated bullets he got somewhere. Both in 38/357. He noticed right away that the no name plated bullets were separating even at 38 Special velocities. He literally couldn't hit his target with them. The Berry's were much better and didn't separate even at 357 Magnum velocities. But even so he noticed quite a few flyers in the batch he had. I have had similar results with plated bullets including Berry's so I personally only use jacketed. I am excited to see what you come up with running these at magnum velocities as so far you have had very good results with the Xtreme line of plated bullets. If you get similar good results with the 38/357 at magnum velocities I will be placing an order with them as my batch of JHP's is about gone. Thanks!
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My buddy had some Berry's Bullets and some no name plated bullets he got somewhere. Both in 38/357. He noticed right away that the no name plated bullets were separating even at 38 Special velocities. He literally couldn't hit his target with them. The Berry's were much better and didn't separate even at 357 Magnum velocities. But even so he noticed quite a few flyers in the batch he had. I have had similar results with plated bullets including Berry's so I personally only use jacketed. I am excited to see what you come up with running these at magnum velocities as so far you have had very good results with the Xtreme line of plated bullets. If you get similar good results with the 38/357 at magnum velocities I will be placing an order with them as my batch of JHP's is about gone. Thanks!
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Oh yeah, I used to get some horrible and painful spitting out the bbl cylinder gap with old gen plated bullets. But I know some ipsc boys are running 9mm major and 38 stuper with these xtremes. I have pushed 10mm auto past 1100 no problem. We'll see if I can hit 14 or 1500 with those puppies.!
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Oh yeah, I used to get some horrible and painful spitting out the bbl cylinder gap with old gen plated bullets. But I know some ipsc boys are running 9mm major and 38 stuper with these xtremes. I have pushed 10mm auto past 1100 no problem. We'll see if I can hit 14 or 1500 with those puppies.!
What weights are you going to order? Even though my 627 likes 158gr it actually is a little more accurate with 125gr. According to the load data on Hodgdon's website I am pushing them around 1,900fps. Only issue I have seen so far is copper fouling. Which brings me to my next project loading with CFE Pistol...
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My buddy had some Berry's Bullets and some no name plated bullets he got somewhere. Both in 38/357. He noticed right away that the no name plated bullets were separating even at 38 Special velocities. He literally couldn't hit his target with them. The Berry's were much better and didn't separate even at 357 Magnum velocities. But even so he noticed quite a few flyers in the batch he had. I have had similar results with plated bullets including Berry's so I personally only use jacketed. I am excited to see what you come up with running these at magnum velocities as so far you have had very good results with the Xtreme line of plated bullets. If you get similar good results with the 38/357 at magnum velocities I will be placing an order with them as my batch of JHP's is about gone. Thanks!
i had issues with the thinner plated berrys also. Those actually have a note not to exceed 1200fps. However they sell some with a thicker plating for up to 1500fps haat work quiite well.
I noticed fliers with the thin plate variety at velocities <1000 fps so i pulled some bullets to see the problem. Turns out some bullets were deforming when you seat them in the casing! I have not experienced this problem with the thick plate variety offered by berrys.
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What weights are you going to order? Even though my 627 likes 158gr it actually is a little more accurate with 125gr. According to the load data on Hodgdon's website I am pushing them around 1,900fps. Only issue I have seen so far is copper fouling. Which brings me to my next project loading with CFE Pistol...
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I ordered 357 158's....swc and hp. I believe the hp are heavy plate which should do 1500fps.
I thought I read somewhere not to exceed 1500.
Cfe pistol is too fast for hi vel mag loads eh?
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I ordered 357 158's....swc and hp. I believe the hp are heavy plate which should do 1500fps.
I thought I read somewhere not to exceed 1500.
Cfe pistol is too fast for hi vel mag loads eh?
Yes, the CFE Pistol is not suitable for real magnum loads. However, the idea behind the CFE Pistol project for me is to see how well it works getting rid of the aforementioned copper fouling I am seeing. It gets so bad at times that if I look inside the barrel I can actually see the grooves are copper/gold colored. I plan on shooting a few rounds with the CFE Pistol right before I leave the range. I am hoping that after 5 or 10 rounds using CFE Pistol that the copper fouling will be gone before I go home. Making my clean-up a little easier.
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Here are some photos comparing some different 147 Gr. 9mm ammunition.
I got some xtreme bullets in on Friday so I loaded up a few rounds.
For the initial test, I fired a test round with 4.2 gr CFE-P in my workshop to test for obvious pressure signs.
It looked fine.
Xtrm=xtreme 147 HP
GD= Speer Gold Dot 147jhp
FHS= Fed Hydra Shok 147jhp
Q4217= Winchester 147 jhp controlled expansion
FC96= Military contract 147 jhp
see the pics
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Continuing on now.
Here are some speed tests of some factory ammo as well as a quicky test reload.
I see velocity between 846 to 1009 fps.
My test load of 4.2 CFEP and the Xtreme147HP fell sort of in the middle ground at 917fps.
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I finally got out to the rifle range today. It was crowded today. Probably due to people trying out their new gun show toys. There was a short waiting list.
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Anyway, as a part of this project, I wanted to see if subsonic pistol ammo stayed subsonic out of a long bbl gun.
In the past, I saw dramatic increases in velocity from pistol barrels. What if I went from a stock glock 4.4 inch to a 16 inch carbine????
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The test gun was my Marlin Camp-9 carbine with a 16 inch bbl.
I fired the same lots of ammo that I tested 2 months ago.
There were some surprises!
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SURPRISE#1- The 1st shot of each test string was consistently lower in velocity than the rest.
SURPRISE#2- My reloaded ammo sped up much more than the factory rounds
SURPRISE#3- The factory rounds did not speed up very much at all. One load hardly changed at all.
SURPRISE#4- Velocities in all tests showed a much higher amount of deviation than pistol tests.
UNSURPRISE- the carbine hates hollow point ammo. But I had fun shooting some ball that I loaded this morning.
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Analyzing the results, I think some of the inconsistent results might be due to loose chamber dimensions.
Beyond that, I don't really know what's going on. None of the test loads came close to going supersonic.
It would be interesting to see if the same results happen from some other carbines.
See the chart:
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Awesome! I think that in longer Bbls, fast burn pistol powder is all expended by the first10 or 12", the remaining Bbl time actually causes drag on the projectile, causing velocity drop.
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Awesome! I think that in longer Bbls, fast burn pistol powder is all expended by the first10 or 12", the remaining Bbl time actually causes drag on the projectile, causing velocity drop.
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Yeah. I thought about that too. But I think there is more to it than just that.
The biggest factor here is the loose chamber. I know from past tests that match bbls in 45 auto shoot faster than stock colt bbls.
The fired shells looked sooty and bloated.
Possible bullet setback...I did observe bashed bullet tips when I had FTF. They were slamming into the feed ramp.
That carbine balks at hollow point ammo. I did get a little better consistency with round nose reloads.
Those factors could contribute to the lower speeds and inconsistent speeds.
This experience tells me to stay away from non-round nose ammo in that particular gun.
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oldfart, Sorry for hijacking the thread, but do you have any CFE Pistol loads for the Xtreme 124gr?
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oldfart, Sorry for hijacking the thread, but do you have any CFE Pistol loads for the Xtreme 124gr?
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No pilikia
Everything I know about xtreme 124 and cfe is right here:
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=15673.20
Read the whole thing. There is a lot of info there.
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I just read the whole thing. Thanks for the info.
Since you're loading for practice loads, does that mean I can play around with the charges to find a more accurate load? Also, do you load to different COL for the Xtreme 124 RN vs the 124 HP?
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I just read the whole thing. Thanks for the info.
Since you're loading for practice loads, does that mean I can play around with the charges to find a more accurate load? Also, do you load to different COL for the Xtreme 124 RN vs the 124 HP?
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Sure you can tweak a little, though 5.5 cfe is pretty much max.
If you go down too much, it might get dirty and/or malfunction.
The COL for hp and rn will be different obviously. For the rn, try measure some factory ball and duplicate it.
Alternatively, you could try seat the rn way out until it won't fit the mag, then push it in till it fits comfortably and you can fill the mag to full capacity.
Then see if it drops into the chamber completely and falls out by itself. Take the bbl out first.
Theoretically, that would be the best col for accuracy. Then you have to actually run it to see if it feeds 100%.
You would need to test it with every magazine too. Sometimes ammo works in one mag, but jams in another.
Also, it might not work in different guns because of differences in chamber dimensions or magazine dimensions.
After you establish the physical size, then you can tweak the powder charge to tighten groups.
If you are planning to shoot with a practical club, you need to make minimum power level and have enough horsepower to knock down steel plates reliably.