2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Heavies on July 13, 2015, 12:48:16 PM
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This morning I just saw another story of a homeless person getting stabbed by an other homeless person. Where is the rights of good and honest folks down and out that have the unfortunate reality of having to live on the streets?
Should they not have the right to personal self defense with a firearm? According to state and city law I am guessing they cannot keep and bear arms in their tent or auto in which they reside..
What say you?
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This morning I just saw another story of a homeless person getting stabbed by an other homeless person. Where is the rights of good and honest folks down and out that have the unfortunate reality of having to live on the streets?
Should they not have the right to personal self defense with a firearm? According to state and city law I am guessing they cannot keep and bear arms in their tent or auto in which they reside..
What say you?
A large portion of homeless are suffering from mental illness and/or drug addiction. Those homeless should be denied possession of firearms. Too bad they can find their way to a firearm in spite of the law if they really try.
Some are homeless due to purely economic and financial circumstances. They should be allowed the same self defense rights as anyone else.
Having said that, if someone is financially disadvantaged, a firearm is low on their list of "needs". A few hundred bucks for food and essentials is a higher priority than a decent handgun.
The gun is also a high-value theft item. The risk in their situation is higher for the gun falling into the wrong hands.
Even though their situation creates stress and may contribute to them committing desperate acts, that potential doesn't override their rights.
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When talking about homeless, it's important to make distinctions about the different types of homeless. I am referencing actual Hawaii data below.
The last count is that there is about 4900 homeless in Hawaii.
32% of homeless are classified as "chronically homeless". This category have been homeless for a good while (8+ years) and are double diagnosed with substance abuse and mental health issues.
42% of homeless are classified as "rapid rehousing". This category are people who just became homeless because of economic reasons and are unable to afford a place to rent.
26% are classified as "mainstream". This category are people who got kicked out (got in a fight with parents, etc) and are temporarily homeless.
Note: below are opinions....
The chronically homeless should probably not own firearms, especially if they have drug or mental issues.
The "rapid rehousing" and "mainstream" homeless have a real case for owning a firearm for self defense.
Living on the streets seem like a really tough situation to be in especially considering the property crime rates in Hawaii. One can imagine firearms being stolen if not stored in a secure place.
If someone has lost their job and suddenly find themselves homeless, what can they do with their firearms? Can they store it in a friend's place or would that be illegal? Would a recently-homeless person have to sell their firearms or do they not just become homeless but also a felon?
Also, there are talk about instances of sex crimes being done to homeless women and children on the streets. This would be a good case for owning a firearm for self defense, don't you think?
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I think they should definitely be allowed legally to possess.
That being said, they probably do. At least the peeps living under the H1 overpass near Nimitz do. You occasionally hear about some shootings/stabbings/etc in the area.
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A lot of people seem to want to lump all homeless into the druggie/crazy/felon category. I have caught myself thinking in this way also. Upon closer inspection and thought I just realized these folk's rights are completely removed by the asinine laws we have here in Hawaii. If a homeless citizen meets all criteria for owning a firearm, they automatically turn into a felon if they do not give up their arms when going to the street. Huum, so I guess it is a crime to be homeless? or is the owning of a firearm a privilege?
I can see how a firearm might not be a top need if one was homeless, but think about SHTF scenario.... not too far removed from a lose your job / can't pay the rent / live in the van down by the river scenario... would you sell all your stuff off to buy food and such? maybe you don't need all ten of your rifles, pistols, and shotguns.... but would it not be prudent to hold on to a few? Well you can't, unless you want to have the book thrown at you, if and when you need to use them. Insult to injury!
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this is optimistic thinking but a tent could technically be a "place of sojourn" right?
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A lot of people seem to want to lump all homeless into the druggie/crazy/felon category. I have caught myself thinking in this way also. Upon closer inspection and thought I just realized these folk's rights are completely removed by the asinine laws we have here in Hawaii. If a homeless citizen meets all criteria for owning a firearm, they automatically turn into a felon if they do not give up their arms when going to the street. Huum, so I guess it is a crime to be homeless? or is the owning of a firearm a privilege?
I can see how a firearm might not be a top need if one was homeless, but think about SHTF scenario.... not too far removed from a lose your job / can't pay the rent / live in the van down by the river scenario... would you sell all your stuff off to buy food and such? maybe you don't need all ten of your rifles, pistols, and shotguns.... but would it not be prudent to hold on to a few? Well you can't, unless you want to have the book thrown at you, if and when you need to use them. Insult to injury!
This might be a bit off topic....
I used to work in downtown Los Angeles. During the first Iraq war I was on my lunch break and walked into a t-shirt shop and bought a shirt. When I came out I was hit up by a homeless guy and his girlfriend for some change. FWIW they were African-American. He was in a wheelchair, not well dressed but well groomed. His girlfriend (not in wheelchair) was well dressed and well groomed. My project was right next door so he started asking me questions about it. Which got me asking him questions about being homeless. I obviously cannot verify everything he told me. But I will repeat here FWIW. He said there are basic groups that tend to stick together. And there are some loner types. The loners and the violent groups caused 80% of the crime. But there were also family groups which tended to stick together in order to protect themselves and their children from the criminal types. He had an SRO (Single Resident Occupancy) Housing Apartment. And his GF had one as well. The Federal Govt. paid like 80% and the City of LA paid a portion and the rest was taken out of their welfare checks. The SRO program was designed to keep people off the streets. Yet, he and his GF chose to sleep in these groups outside for safety. Apparently the housing units were not safe at night. They kept their clothes and some personal items in their units. They took showers, did their laundry and everything during the day time in the housing. The rest of their welfare checks and food allowances were used to survive. But his begging was what he and his GF used to buy their nice clothes and get their hair styled, etc. He claimed he would get as much as $40k a year between welfare and begging in downtown. This was back in 1990 and I think I was only making like $45k-$50k a year at that time.
Just some after thoughts I had during and after our discussion. He was well groomed meaning his hair was styled, fingernails cut and polished. His mannerisms were not street like and he spoke perfect English. His GF was pretty much the same. Styled and straightened hair, nice makeup and lots of jewelry. She spoke perfect English as well and I have to say she was quite good looking and dressed very provocatively. It was hard for me to keep my eyes off of her. I asked him why with that sort of income they don't just get an apartment and start living a better life. He said that anything he did that could be traced like opening up a checking account. getting a safe deposit box, buying a car, etc. could be grounds for him losing his welfare. And the welfare helped support his lifestyle. He said once you get in the system you learn how to work it to your advantage to maximize your income. At the time there were not a lot of programs but what there were he was well versed in how to gain access to them. Considering the programs they have today where the Govt pays up to 80% or 90% of your rent for you as well as all the different food and welfare programs no one has to live on the streets nor go hungry. I believe begging can be just another form of additional income for those who want to buy some luxuries above and beyond Govt subsidies. But you get the Govt subsidies only if you seek them out. While I am sure he felt he was doing well for himself, after all the things he told me I am not surprised the homeless here have generators and flat screen TV's.
I also had a long drawn out e-mail discussion with a guy I kicked off one of my forums for being verbally abusive to some of the other members. He claimed he was in the welfare programs, living on the Big Island, had a car, a computer, a TV, satellite service, a cell phone, etc. He also told me there are a ton of programs out there for someone to sign up and qualify for. And there are a bunch of people willing to give you cash in exchange for things like EBT cards. He may only get a fraction of what they are worth but with cash he could buy alcohol and other items not normally allowed. Biggest thing is you need to get rid of all your verifiable assets. Most of his things like his car, cell phone, etc. are under a relative's name. Once you have nothing you can be supported for the rest of your life. While he was bragging about living off the Govt he also said he was not happy. He did not feel guilty but he knew he could do better for himself. He claimed he didn't know how to get off the welfare addiction. Plus, he offered to sit down with me and give me all the details of how I could get started in the welfare programs as well.
These are my only experiences with the homeless other than being homeless myself for 3 months back in the early nineties. I cannot say how much of all I repeated here is true but I am sure some of it is to some extent.
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This might be a bit off topic....
I used to work in downtown Los Angeles. During the first Iraq war I was on my lunch break and walked into a t-shirt shop and bought a shirt. When I came out I was hit up by a homeless guy and his girlfriend for some change. FWIW they were African-American. He was in a wheelchair, not well dressed but well groomed. His girlfriend (not in wheelchair) was well dressed and well groomed. My project was right next door so he started asking me questions about it. Which got me asking him questions about being homeless. I obviously cannot verify everything he told me. But I will repeat here FWIW. He said there are basic groups that tend to stick together. And there are some loner types. The loners and the violent groups caused 80% of the crime. But there were also family groups which tended to stick together in order to protect themselves and their children from the criminal types. He had an SRO (Single Resident Occupancy) Housing Apartment. And his GF had one as well. The Federal Govt. paid like 80% and the City of LA paid a portion and the rest was taken out of their welfare checks. The SRO program was designed to keep people off the streets. Yet, he and his GF chose to sleep in these groups outside for safety. Apparently the housing units were not safe at night. They kept their clothes and some personal items in their units. They took showers, did their laundry and everything during the day time in the housing. The rest of their welfare checks and food allowances were used to survive. But his begging was what he and his GF used to buy their nice clothes and get their hair styled, etc. He claimed he would get as much as $40k a year between welfare and begging in downtown. This was back in 1990 and I think I was only making like $45k-$50k a year at that time.
Just some after thoughts I had during and after our discussion. He was well groomed meaning his hair was styled, fingernails cut and polished. His mannerisms were not street like and he spoke perfect English. His GF was pretty much the same. Styled and straightened hair, nice makeup and lots of jewelry. She spoke perfect English as well and I have to say she was quite good looking and dressed very provocatively. It was hard for me to keep my eyes off of her. I asked him why with that sort of income they don't just get an apartment and start living a better life. He said that anything he did that could be traced like opening up a checking account. getting a safe deposit box, buying a car, etc. could be grounds for him losing his welfare. And the welfare helped support his lifestyle. He said once you get in the system you learn how to work it to your advantage to maximize your income. At the time there were not a lot of programs but what there were he was well versed in how to gain access to them. Considering the programs they have today where the Govt pays up to 80% or 90% of your rent for you as well as all the different food and welfare programs no one has to live on the streets nor go hungry. I believe begging can be just another form of additional income for those who want to buy some luxuries above and beyond Govt subsidies. But you get the Govt subsidies only if you seek them out. While I am sure he felt he was doing well for himself, after all the things he told me I am not surprised the homeless here have generators and flat screen TV's.
I also had a long drawn out e-mail discussion with a guy I kicked off one of my forums for being verbally abusive to some of the other members. He claimed he was in the welfare programs, living on the Big Island, had a car, a computer, a TV, satellite service, a cell phone, etc. He also told me there are a ton of programs out there for someone to sign up and qualify for. And there are a bunch of people willing to give you cash in exchange for things like EBT cards. He may only get a fraction of what they are worth but with cash he could buy alcohol and other items not normally allowed. Biggest thing is you need to get rid of all your verifiable assets. Most of his things like his car, cell phone, etc. are under a relative's name. Once you have nothing you can be supported for the rest of your life. While he was bragging about living off the Govt he also said he was not happy. He did not feel guilty but he knew he could do better for himself. He claimed he didn't know how to get off the welfare addiction. Plus, he offered to sit down with me and give me all the details of how I could get started in the welfare programs as well.
These are my only experiences with the homeless other than being homeless myself for 3 months back in the early nineties. I cannot say how much of all I repeated here is true but I am sure some of it is to some extent.
Interesting and informative. I know it cannot be 100% verified, but I do know a lot of what you mentioned happens. It is so unfortunate that people like this exist and take what the don't really need, frm those who earn it, and those who really need it.
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If we should get it, so should they.
We can't make distinctions between who should be able to CCW or not, because then we would be hypocrites.
Good point Q. The only stipulation is that they have to be able to go through and pass what ever background checks and classes everyone else has to go through and pass. Treat them the same (equally).
I would LIKE your post but the LIKE buttons don't work for me again.
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This might be a bit off topic....
I used to work in downtown Los Angeles. During the first Iraq war I was on my lunch break and walked into a t-shirt shop and bought a shirt. When I came out I was hit up by a homeless guy and his girlfriend for some change. FWIW they were African-American. He was in a wheelchair, not well dressed but well groomed. His girlfriend (not in wheelchair) was well dressed and well groomed. My project was right next door so he started asking me questions about it. Which got me asking him questions about being homeless. I obviously cannot verify everything he told me. But I will repeat here FWIW. He said there are basic groups that tend to stick together. And there are some loner types. The loners and the violent groups caused 80% of the crime. But there were also family groups which tended to stick together in order to protect themselves and their children from the criminal types. He had an SRO (Single Resident Occupancy) Housing Apartment. And his GF had one as well. The Federal Govt. paid like 80% and the City of LA paid a portion and the rest was taken out of their welfare checks. The SRO program was designed to keep people off the streets. Yet, he and his GF chose to sleep in these groups outside for safety. Apparently the housing units were not safe at night. They kept their clothes and some personal items in their units. They took showers, did their laundry and everything during the day time in the housing. The rest of their welfare checks and food allowances were used to survive. But his begging was what he and his GF used to buy their nice clothes and get their hair styled, etc. He claimed he would get as much as $40k a year between welfare and begging in downtown. This was back in 1990 and I think I was only making like $45k-$50k a year at that time.
Just some after thoughts I had during and after our discussion. He was well groomed meaning his hair was styled, fingernails cut and polished. His mannerisms were not street like and he spoke perfect English. His GF was pretty much the same. Styled and straightened hair, nice makeup and lots of jewelry. She spoke perfect English as well and I have to say she was quite good looking and dressed very provocatively. It was hard for me to keep my eyes off of her. I asked him why with that sort of income they don't just get an apartment and start living a better life. He said that anything he did that could be traced like opening up a checking account. getting a safe deposit box, buying a car, etc. could be grounds for him losing his welfare. And the welfare helped support his lifestyle. He said once you get in the system you learn how to work it to your advantage to maximize your income. At the time there were not a lot of programs but what there were he was well versed in how to gain access to them. Considering the programs they have today where the Govt pays up to 80% or 90% of your rent for you as well as all the different food and welfare programs no one has to live on the streets nor go hungry. I believe begging can be just another form of additional income for those who want to buy some luxuries above and beyond Govt subsidies. But you get the Govt subsidies only if you seek them out. While I am sure he felt he was doing well for himself, after all the things he told me I am not surprised the homeless here have generators and flat screen TV's.
I also had a long drawn out e-mail discussion with a guy I kicked off one of my forums for being verbally abusive to some of the other members. He claimed he was in the welfare programs, living on the Big Island, had a car, a computer, a TV, satellite service, a cell phone, etc. He also told me there are a ton of programs out there for someone to sign up and qualify for. And there are a bunch of people willing to give you cash in exchange for things like EBT cards. He may only get a fraction of what they are worth but with cash he could buy alcohol and other items not normally allowed. Biggest thing is you need to get rid of all your verifiable assets. Most of his things like his car, cell phone, etc. are under a relative's name. Once you have nothing you can be supported for the rest of your life. While he was bragging about living off the Govt he also said he was not happy. He did not feel guilty but he knew he could do better for himself. He claimed he didn't know how to get off the welfare addiction. Plus, he offered to sit down with me and give me all the details of how I could get started in the welfare programs as well.
These are my only experiences with the homeless other than being homeless myself for 3 months back in the early nineties. I cannot say how much of all I repeated here is true but I am sure some of it is to some extent.
the crappy part of this is is that most of these programs have limited space, so they're "competitive", for lack of a better term. and the ones that really dont need it (like the guy begging for tax free income when he could quite obviously get a job) push out the ones who need it more who are often less intellectually gifted and dont understand how to play the system.
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Also, since we are off the topic a little, Another scam I know happens is that folks intentionally do not get married so that they can get the extras that comes for a single parent. Guy's making six figures, not married to the GF, has 5/6 kids getting food and other benefits... Now that's some messed up sh right there.
Reward for all those who follow the handout system, be a good little liberal and vote them in, or don't vote at all... everyone else who takes the high road, does the straight and narrow, hey you pay for them!
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Also, since we are off the topic a little, Another scam I know happens is that folks intentionally do not get married so that they can get the extras that comes for a single parent. Guy's making six figures, not married to the GF, has 5/6 kids getting food and other benefits... Now that's some messed up sh right there.
Reward for all those who follow the handout system, be a good little liberal and vote them in, or don't vote at all... everyone else who takes the high road, does the straight and narrow, hey you pay for them!
oh yeah. a lot of couples get "divorced" so they can claim being a single parent on college aps and rake in the financial aid. but then the parents are still living together because its just a divorce on paper.
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Also, since we are off the topic a little, Another scam I know happens is that folks intentionally do not get married so that they can get the extras that comes for a single parent. Guy's making six figures, not married to the GF, has 5/6 kids getting food and other benefits... Now that's some messed up sh right there.
Reward for all those who follow the handout system, be a good little liberal and vote them in, or don't vote at all... everyone else who takes the high road, does the straight and narrow, hey you pay for them!
Okay, let's stay on the off-topic ....
Many welfare recipients are friends and family with others on welfare. As soon as one finds out there's a new/increased benefit being provided, it's like a high-speed communication network! Suddenly they all know what to do to qualify and run down to sign the forms once they do qualify! If they put as much effort into making themselves more employable and finding work as they do learning to scam the tax payers, we would be a long way toward solving many societal problems!
Another abuse is worker's comp insurance fraud. My brother has been in fast food management forever. His biggest, on-going problem is hiring someone who gets "injured" the second week on the job. They then file for all the disability, worker's comp, and state insurance they can. They know what symptoms can be impossible to disprove. Now they get 6 months of payment from various programs. When that runs out, they file for unemployment and all the welfare they can qualify for. This drives up the cost of all business' WC insurance premiums.
One week on vacation I was watching The People's Court everyday. Four out of five days there was AT LEAST 1 person when asked by the judge what they did, replied, "I'm on disability." Must have been "Scum Week!" These people were no more disabled than anyone else I know! If asked the nature of the disability, is was always some neck or back injury. Soft tissue injuries can't be seen on X-Ray, so you have to take the patient's word for how much pain they are in.
SCAMMERS!! Man, how they make me sick!!
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Hah, I always wondered about that "I'm on disability" thing on that show as well...
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My niece is married to a man on disability. He is on disability because he ignored his doctor's warnings and never took his insulin when he was informed he was diabetic. He also continued to drink heavy. He ended up losing his leg. He is on disability due to complications from diabetes. I know he can still work as he had a mundane computer job at one time making CD copies for a company. But he says he doesn't understand computers. I think he is saying this because SSA wanted to retrain him doing some sort of computer work. He does nothing all day since the kids are now grown and leaving the house. I love my niece.
So one day Judge Judy asked this woman why she was on disability. She said because she has diabetes. Judy then asked her if she meant because of complications due to diabetes? And the woman said no, she just had diabetes. Judy turns to her bailiff and says something to the effect: I thought I heard it all before. This is a new one. I looked it up on the Internet. If she could fake not feeling well due to her diabetes and taking the meds makes her sick, with a good lawyer she could be on disability due to diabetes.
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I remember reading about a teacher in Hawaii who violated school policy and was fired.
She claimed stress-related disability due to being fired (remember, the firing was the result of her own actions).
She won the case and was awarded disability pay.
You can't make this shit up!!
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Last evening, at the check out line at foodland, two boys, couldn't be more than 16-17, bunch of junk food chips and such..... they were so high it was obvious. Dude had a hard time with his cards while he was trying to pay for his junks, he was trying to swipe two cards at the same time. Guess its hard when one is up in space. Since this was taking so long, I naturally wanted to know what the heck was going on. What caught my attention and my ire? Dude was paying with EBT!
.... Boy this thread got de-railed bad.. Lol
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Hey can you claim that, because you do not have a gun to protect you, you are super stressed walking the dangerous streets?
O0
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http://www.guns.com/2015/08/10/homeless-man-with-a-gun-stops-suspect-from-beating-unconscious-teen/
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Back to the original question, it seems to me that a right is a right. Argue exceptions where you must, but stripping someone of a right because they don't have a place to hang their hat (if the have one)? I'm not seeing any way to justify that.
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Back to the original question, it seems to me that a right is a right. Argue exceptions where you must, but stripping someone of a right because they don't have a place to hang their hat (if the have one)? I'm not seeing any way to justify that.
In Hawaii, a right is NOT a right. The government has decided that your individual rights are not being violated as long as you can still exercise them when and where they say you can. These "places to store" laws for firearms in Hawaii are no different than "Free Speech Zones" set up to control you while you exercise your "freedom".
Pragmatically, someone on the street has more of a need to be able to defend themselves from robbery, sex crimes and violence, and a firearm would suit that purpose. If you don't have four walls, a roof and a door with a lock to protect yourself from anyone seeking to do you harm, all the more reason a gun would be useful.
On the other hand, logic says if you can't carry a weapon on your person in public without a mythical CCW permit, how would you protect the weapon that protects you? A safe on wheels defeats its purpose, and you can't realistically expect to stay in your tent, bus stop, or overpass all day/everyday to watch over your belongings.
Yes, a right is a right, but only if you don't live in a state governed by the left.
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http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/10/armed-homeless-man-intervenes-saves-woman-under-attack/
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http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/10/armed-homeless-man-intervenes-saves-woman-under-attack/
3 posts up Rocky... same story lol.
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:love:
3 posts up Rocky... same story lol.