2aHawaii

General Topics => Strategies and Tactics => Topic started by: TeamSDSHawaii on October 08, 2011, 12:43:47 PM

Title: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on October 08, 2011, 12:43:47 PM
What do you all use for Non/Less-than Lethal Carry???

Safety and personal protection is very important to us!

My every day carry is a Wild Fire Pepper Spray Keychain, Tactical Flashlight with strobe light and serrated edges, Leatherman Wave in belt case and Folding knife in pocket. Also carry a larger Mace Brand Police Edition Pepper Spray in my truck.

The Wife carries a Wild Fire Pepper Spray Keychain, as well as a tactical flashlight and larger Mace in purse and vehicle.

Sorry if this topic has been brought up before, but searched and couldn't find.

What do you carry? :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: Cougar8045 on October 08, 2011, 01:12:55 PM
I don't have any non-lethal carry items yet, but I have been thinking I should get the wife a can of pepper spray. I'm sure you're aware, but I'm pretty sure that knives are deadly weapons, so if you use one in self defense, the normal rules for deadly force would apply.
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: 2aHawaii on October 08, 2011, 01:42:27 PM
Pepper spray is about the only thing that is legal in Hawaii so if anyone is carrying a less lethal item, that's what they are carrying :)
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on October 10, 2011, 08:05:18 AM
Pepper Sprays being the most commonly known, other "Attention Getters" like screechers, personal alarms, whistles, super bright flashlights with strobes, kubotans, etc. etc. are all great for self defense, "less-than lethal" alternatives... So you can get yourself out of a bad situation...  :thumbsup:

Until we get CCW, we have to be creative in the ways we protect ourselves and families.

Hopefully Hawaii gets CCW in my lifetime... ::) Then other means like pepper sprays etc. are great for escalating force.
 
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: Heavies on October 10, 2011, 08:15:18 AM
Being in shape and ready for either fight or flight is an essential part of the plan if using pepper sprays IMHO.  Pepper sprays are easily overcome by drugged out chronics.  It's better than nothing and a cell phone, but just be sure to be ready to pound and run. 

For those that may be frailer, I wish we had CC, or at least tasers. 
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: Kingkeoni on October 10, 2011, 08:17:58 AM
Being in shape and ready for either fight or flight is an essential part of the plan if using pepper sprays IMHO.  Pepper sprays are easily overcome by drugged out chronics.  It's better than nothing and a cell phone, but just be sure to be ready to pound and run.

Pound and run?

That describes my last three girlfriends.
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: vooduchikn on October 10, 2011, 11:07:01 AM
Being in shape and ready for either fight or flight is an essential part of the plan if using pepper sprays IMHO.  Pepper sprays are easily overcome by drugged out chronics.  It's better than nothing and a cell phone, but just be sure to be ready to pound and run.

Pound and run?

That describes my last three girlfriends.

Doh! :rofl:
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on October 10, 2011, 05:47:54 PM
Being in shape and ready for either fight or flight is an essential part of the plan if using pepper sprays IMHO.  Pepper sprays are easily overcome by drugged out chronics.  It's better than nothing and a cell phone, but just be sure to be ready to pound and run.

Pound and run?

That describes my last three girlfriends.


Heh Heh...  :rofl:
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on October 10, 2011, 05:49:29 PM
I agree being in shape and knowing how to protect yourself is a great idea!
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: Dregs on October 10, 2011, 08:01:27 PM
Pepper sprays are easily overcome by drugged out chronics. 


Agreed that being in shape and training is a huge component of your own safety.

 According to TeamSDSHawaii website, the pepper spray brand/type/whatever they have is not entirely based on pain to distract or disable the offender, which perhaps a coked out douche might be able to mitigate, but it also physically swells and shuts their eyes and makes it inconvenient to breathe.

/discuss
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: Funtimes on October 31, 2011, 11:48:04 AM
dive knife
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on November 11, 2011, 12:51:43 AM
Pepper sprays are easily overcome by drugged out chronics. 


Agreed that being in shape and training is a huge component of your own safety.

 According to TeamSDSHawaii website, the pepper spray brand/type/whatever they have is not entirely based on pain to distract or disable the offender, which perhaps a coked out douche might be able to mitigate, but it also physically swells and shuts their eyes and makes it inconvenient to breathe.

/discuss

That it does.... lack of vision, swelling the eyes shut, pain and discomfort, difficulty breathing, loss of bearings, etc.... thus giving you the chance to escape your threat... (crack head bastids!)
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: Dregs on November 11, 2011, 12:51:52 PM
Have you tried it?  :D

If not, I request video of your suffering  >:D
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: Kingkeoni on November 11, 2011, 06:31:31 PM
Have you tried it?  :D

If not, I request video of your suffering  >:D

We can all get together and have a pepper spray each other party.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: 808shooter on November 11, 2011, 06:43:01 PM
prolly 8 yrs ago, I bought a keychain pepper sprayer.  Carried it for a year without testing it.  Finally, when it reached expiration date i tried it to see what kind of spray it would do and a small stream of spray came out prolly reaching a whopping 3-5 ft.  Sure if the bad guy stopped in front of you, stood completely still for you to spray him for about 10 seconds, it *could* be effective.  I was pretty disappointed to say the least.  Please tell me they've gotten better over the years?  Any you can recommend?
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on November 28, 2011, 10:49:00 PM
Have you tried it?  :D

If not, I request video of your suffering  >:D

I cannot say i have taken a direct hit... I can say that I have felt the side effects of a test spray.... braddah... that was enough. Do not want...

I am in the process of working with a Self Defense Co. in the mainland that requires a spray and play test for certification.... I am so not looking forward to this.
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on November 28, 2011, 11:12:26 PM
prolly 8 yrs ago, I bought a keychain pepper sprayer.  Carried it for a year without testing it.  Finally, when it reached expiration date i tried it to see what kind of spray it would do and a small stream of spray came out prolly reaching a whopping 3-5 ft.  Sure if the bad guy stopped in front of you, stood completely still for you to spray him for about 10 seconds, it *could* be effective.  I was pretty disappointed to say the least.  Please tell me they've gotten better over the years?  Any you can recommend?

808. sorry for your bad experience.

Pepper sprays are like any aerosol type products and lose their "punch" over time. You probably had an older unit. Most keychain types are good for about 6-10 shots at about 8 feet or so. Many of our products are dated and we along with most good dealers/manufactorers recommend they be replaced by/before their expiration date. Our sprays are the latest production units and we only re-order when we are low on stock to keep them "fresh"

They are inexpensive, cheap to replace and offer a good self defense product for the money spent.

We also offer MACE units which are higher end products with trigger sprays, more distance, better coverage and features, depending on unit.

Please feel free to check out our site and/or contact us for more info. We are more than glad to help! http://www.selfdefensesolutionshawaii.com (http://www.selfdefensesolutionshawaii.com)

Mahalo,

Joey
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on November 28, 2011, 11:16:02 PM
Have you tried it?  :D

If not, I request video of your suffering  >:D

We can all get together and have a pepper spray each other party.  :thumbsup:

heh heh... you bring the beers and pu pu's... i bring da sprays... :shaka:
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: clshade on November 28, 2011, 11:19:09 PM
I'm a little surprised that martial arts training doesn't come up more frequently in these discussions. Maybe I just haven't been around those discussions, though.

There are many different flavors of martial arts out there to suit your taste and the benefits go way beyond just being able to defend yourself.

One of the things that is hugely missing from civilian experience is a combat-ready mindset. Martial arts gives you the opportunity to play with that edge and get used to it without endangering yourself. Its not the same as combat training to be sure, but its better than nothing as it gets the body into instant reaction mode. Once you break that ice your body applies it more readily to other skills - like shooting, provided you don't train yourself into handicaps with your shooting. Other than guitar lessons, I consider the martial arts training I've done over the years (not much, but enough) to be some of the most valuable time I've ever spent. The judo lessons as a young teenager have more than paid for themselves just in terms of potential injuries I've rolled or slapped out of since then.

Not that it replaces non-lethal carry devices. I've just always wondered at the logic of going to the gym to work out when one could get similar health benefits and MUCH more life skills at a dojo. Especially when it comes to well rounded and effective self defense.
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on November 28, 2011, 11:27:19 PM
Watch this video....

*** Caution it contain's some four letter words****

One of my favorite shooter videos... "The Professional Russian" testing out a gun while shot with pepper spray.... (wait till commercial over)

http://youtu.be/N8IGDIujijQ (http://youtu.be/N8IGDIujijQ)

Now you tell me... heh heh :thumbsup: :shaka: :crazy:


This video, (minus commercial) along with others on our site....
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on November 28, 2011, 11:41:28 PM
I'm a little surprised that martial arts training doesn't come up more frequently in these discussions. Maybe I just haven't been around those discussions, though.

There are many different flavors of martial arts out there to suit your taste and the benefits go way beyond just being able to defend yourself.

One of the things that is hugely missing from civilian experience is a combat-ready mindset. Martial arts gives you the opportunity to play with that edge and get used to it without endangering yourself. Its not the same as combat training to be sure, but its better than nothing as it gets the body into instant reaction mode. Once you break that ice your body applies it more readily to other skills - like shooting, provided you don't train yourself into handicaps with your shooting. Other than guitar lessons, I consider the martial arts training I've done over the years (not much, but enough) to be some of the most valuable time I've ever spent. The judo lessons as a young teenager have more than paid for themselves just in terms of potential injuries I've rolled or slapped out of since then.

Not that it replaces non-lethal carry devices. I've just always wondered at the logic of going to the gym to work out when one could get similar health benefits and MUCH more life skills at a dojo. Especially when it comes to well rounded and effective self defense.

^^^ Oh I agree, I agree 100%.

Personal training is where its at. We fully support Martial Arts training and all types of self defense....

We like to offer our products to all law-abiding citizens... Men, women, children, elderly, etc.  Our goal is for a safe Hawaii for all common people.




Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: Kingkeoni on November 29, 2011, 07:24:10 AM
I'm a little surprised that martial arts training doesn't come up more frequently in these discussions. Maybe I just haven't been around those discussions, though.

There are many different flavors of martial arts out there to suit your taste and the benefits go way beyond just being able to defend yourself.

One of the things that is hugely missing from civilian experience is a combat-ready mindset. Martial arts gives you the opportunity to play with that edge and get used to it without endangering yourself. Its not the same as combat training to be sure, but its better than nothing as it gets the body into instant reaction mode. Once you break that ice your body applies it more readily to other skills - like shooting, provided you don't train yourself into handicaps with your shooting. Other than guitar lessons, I consider the martial arts training I've done over the years (not much, but enough) to be some of the most valuable time I've ever spent. The judo lessons as a young teenager have more than paid for themselves just in terms of potential injuries I've rolled or slapped out of since then.

Not that it replaces non-lethal carry devices. I've just always wondered at the logic of going to the gym to work out when one could get similar health benefits and MUCH more life skills at a dojo. Especially when it comes to well rounded and effective self defense.

^^^ Oh I agree, I agree 100%.

Personal training is where its at. We fully support Martial Arts training and all types of self defense....

We like to offer our products to all law-abiding citizens... Men, women, children, elderly, etc.  Our goal is for a safe Hawaii for all common people.

This issue has been discussed here before.

Martial arts training has a very deeply rooted tie into "local" people.
I was taking Muay Thai in the 80's when it was not popular.
Years ago the Hawaii JIKC  used to dominate the national championships. I'm not sure about now. Its been a long time since I've been involved.

I think though that the use of pepper spray is more prudent for a child or an elderly person than any martial arts training.
 With very few exceptions, an elderly person with two months of training is not going to be able to stop two teenage punks from robbing him. (by physically beating them in a fight.

Hosing them down with pepper spray on the other hand will definitely stop most assaults.

For some strange reason, breathing is more important than stealing a wallet.  :D

Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: mishka on November 29, 2011, 06:13:38 PM
I wish I had gotten into martial arts early on.  Now in my late 20's it's hard not to feel like it's too late, though I know it's not.  I just have no idea where to begin, or what direction to go in.

Anyhow, about the original question..

I carry at least one of the following:
-Tactical lights.  Preferably one that takes two AA's.  I like 4Sevens Quark AA2, Fenix LD20, and the EagleTac D25A2 Mini.
-Tactical Pens.  Schrade or Smith & Wesson's.  Also the Cold Steel Sharkie is good, just bulkie!
-Pepper Spray (sometimes)

One thing I got but don't use yet is a cane.  I picked up with goofy one with a skull handle from Cold Steel on sale. Haha, I know.  But I'd like to find a wooden one, strong, lightweight.  Maybe I'll have to make it myself.  If you train with it, I'd think a cane would be an awesome non-lethal self defense weapon.

Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: Kingkeoni on November 29, 2011, 11:56:37 PM
I wish I had gotten into martial arts early on.  Now in my late 20's it's hard not to feel like it's too late, though I know it's not.  I just have no idea where to begin, or what direction to go in.

Anyhow, about the original question..

I carry at least one of the following:
-Tactical lights.  Preferably one that takes two AA's.  I like 4Sevens Quark AA2, Fenix LD20, and the EagleTac D25A2 Mini.
-Tactical Pens.  Schrade or Smith & Wesson's.  Also the Cold Steel Sharkie is good, just bulkie!
-Pepper Spray (sometimes)

One thing I got but don't use yet is a cane.  I picked up with goofy one with a skull handle from Cold Steel on sale. Haha, I know.  But I'd like to find a wooden one, strong, lightweight.  Maybe I'll have to make it myself.  If you train with it, I'd think a cane would be an awesome non-lethal self defense weapon.

I have a great one.

I got it from cane masters. http://www.canemasters.com/ (http://www.canemasters.com/)

Incredibly strong and durable.

You can even get it with training exercises for self defense "cane style".
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on March 03, 2012, 11:56:50 PM
Sorry been out for a while... but canes are a great personal defense weapon.

Canes are totally legal for travel and can be a great self defense weapon if need be....

You don't have to be disabled to use a cane. Canes are perfectly legal thru TSA and on airlines...

We are looking to carry a line of self defense canes soon!

Good call!!!

If anyone remembers grandmas/tutu's canes... they can be brutal.... :shaka:
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: Funtimes on March 10, 2012, 01:29:04 PM
^^^ Oh I agree, I agree 100%.

Personal training is where its at. We fully support Martial Arts training and all types of self defense....

We like to offer our products to all law-abiding citizens... Men, women, children, elderly, etc.  Our goal is for a safe Hawaii for all common people.


This issue has been discussed here before.

Martial arts training has a very deeply rooted tie into "local" people.
I was taking Muay Thai in the 80's when it was not popular.
Years ago the Hawaii JIKC  used to dominate the national championships. I'm not sure about now. Its been a long time since I've been involved.

I think though that the use of pepper spray is more prudent for a child or an elderly person than any martial arts training.
 With very few exceptions, an elderly person with two months of training is not going to be able to stop two teenage punks from robbing him. (by physically beating them in a fight.

Hosing them down with pepper spray on the other hand will definitely stop most assaults.

For some strange reason, breathing is more important than stealing a wallet.  :D

I think people would be better off skipping 'martial arts' and just focusing on defensive training. What I am saying here is that learning arm bars, take downs, or blocking punches, might not be as effective as learning how to break someone grabbing you, or learning to gouge eyes, punch in the throat, stomp at the foot area etc.  These are some things we could probably spend 3-4 hours a month teaching people, that they might actually be able to accomplish without 2-3 times a week of hitting the mat.

Of course, as with anything, the more they practice the better they get and the more likely they will be able to help themselves.
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: rswarrior1700 on March 13, 2012, 06:36:01 PM
I think people would be better off skipping 'martial arts' and just focusing on defensive training. What I am saying here is that learning arm bars, take downs, or blocking punches, might not be as effective as learning how to break someone grabbing you, or learning to gouge eyes, punch in the throat, stomp at the foot area etc.  These are some things we could probably spend 3-4 hours a month teaching people, that they might actually be able to accomplish without 2-3 times a week of hitting the mat.

Of course, as with anything, the more they practice the better they get and the more likely they will be able to help themselves.
Or multiple assailants.


1. Stainless steel sharpie
2. Tactical light with serrated edge (is a bad idea if it went up to court) Example: if the assailant decided to call the cops on you first and they manage to get a lawyer with photos of their injuries the ill inform jury might side with him.
3. Pepper spray (best way to use it is to catch them by surprise not by standing there trying to scare them off with it) Also if you do use run to safety instead of standing around and call 911.
4. I would rather have CCW permit but definitely need a class for it even with CCW can go wrong sometimes.
5. multi-tool especailly if you are at work or sumthing.
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: rswarrior1700 on March 13, 2012, 06:38:38 PM
^^^ Oh I agree, I agree 100%.

Personal training is where its at. We fully support Martial Arts training and all types of self defense....

We like to offer our products to all law-abiding citizens... Men, women, children, elderly, etc.  Our goal is for a safe Hawaii for all common people.


This issue has been discussed here before.

Martial arts training has a very deeply rooted tie into "local" people.
I was taking Muay Thai in the 80's when it was not popular.
Years ago the Hawaii JIKC  used to dominate the national championships. I'm not sure about now. Its been a long time since I've been involved.

I think though that the use of pepper spray is more prudent for a child or an elderly person than any martial arts training.
 With very few exceptions, an elderly person with two months of training is not going to be able to stop two teenage punks from robbing him. (by physically beating them in a fight.

Hosing them down with pepper spray on the other hand will definitely stop most assaults.

For some strange reason, breathing is more important than stealing a wallet.  :D

AHHH JIKC my old alma mater. the founder passed away in 2009 missed the funeral :(
I wonder what happened to them.
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on August 07, 2012, 09:07:31 PM
Check out Star Bulletin response on Pepper Sprays....  :shaka:


http://archives.starbulletin.com/content/20100318_pepper_spray_sales_dont_need_background_check (http://archives.starbulletin.com/content/20100318_pepper_spray_sales_dont_need_background_check)
Title: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: Jl808 on August 07, 2012, 09:27:09 PM
What about escrima sticks?  Shorter than a cane but very effective with proper training.
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: HiCarry on August 08, 2012, 05:20:27 PM
What about escrima sticks?  Shorter than a cane but very effective with proper training.
They might be considered "billy clubs" and therefore illegal to possess.....although the case notes for HRS 134-51 say numchuks are not classified as deadly weapons, so.....


Title: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamMidori on August 08, 2012, 06:24:50 PM
I had some nunchucks, til I got hit in the nuts
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: GreenStomper on August 08, 2012, 07:45:25 PM
Think we've all been  there, done that. Oh the painful memories.
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: bass monkey on August 09, 2012, 07:10:40 PM
Hey SDS you on maui right? Do you guys have a store front location where you sell this stuff? I wouldn't mind stoping by one day I'm on maui
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: bass monkey on August 09, 2012, 07:11:13 PM
Hey SDS you on maui right? Do you guys have a store front location where you sell this stuff? I wouldn't mind stoping by one day I'm on maui
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on August 09, 2012, 10:50:12 PM
Hey SDS you on maui right? Do you guys have a store front location where you sell this stuff? I wouldn't mind stoping by one day I'm on maui

No bro, sorry, no store front yet... and yeah we on Maui... Some of our product are sold at a couple stores here on Maui... Central Guns & Ammo & Uncle Jesse's....

Anyone from this forum gets a 10% off any in stock product (if you buy from us) if you contact us direct!!! :thumbsup:

We will meet and provide product directly to anyone on Maui!!! Just give us a heads up! :thumbsup:

***Let us know you support 2A and are on this forum and we'll give you 10% off automatic!!!***

Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: bass monkey on August 10, 2012, 05:29:59 AM
I'll hit you up next time I'm on maui for sure
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on August 12, 2012, 09:05:26 PM
I'll hit you up next time I'm on maui for sure

Sounds good... give us a heads up and we take care.... automatic...


FYI... a possible Big Island delivery and hot spot in the works... stay tunned! O0
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: sworbeyegib on December 14, 2012, 08:27:15 PM
I had long wondered about the legality of extendable batons, such as ASP, here in Hawaii.  It seems no two gun stores would ever give me the same response as to whether it was legal to carry.  I finally emailed HPD directly and this was the response I got.

Hope you’re having a good morning.  The Hawaii Revised Statute or City and County Revised Ordinance had no law stating the public are not allowed to carry a collapsible baton. Collapsible baton is used in a commission of a crime than the person shall be arrested for the offense.

I saved the email just in case for whatever reason I needed some sort of documentation of it.

I later inquired to an officer in person of his veiwings to the legality.  He informed me that carrying it, and using it for self defense was perfectly legal.  But if at any point you are "playing around" with it, or for whatever reason have it extended in a non emergency circumstance, then you would be brandishiing a dangerous weapon and could be arrested.  As for wearing it out an open on the belt, he said that it is in the same vein as wearing a fixed blade knife, where while there may be no specific law against it, it may be up to the officers discrection to ask you to remove it as it is causing a "public disturbance".  And that not all officers may be 100% keen on the specifics of the law, and will er on the side of caution.

For the record, while I do once in awhile still carry the baton on me here and there, I find it too heavy and too much a burdon on normal day to day functions.  But I did in the past carry it when I felt the need for an added deterrent or layer of defense that pepper spray didn't always provide.  Like when I used to deliver pizzas in Wahiawa (always with my managers approval).

Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: sworbeyegib on December 14, 2012, 08:38:58 PM
I find walking sticks and canes to be amazing improvised self defense weapons coupled with the proper training.  But sometimes social conventions or circumstances might prevent someone from carrying one on them.  A 26 year old in decent shape with no limp, might look at little out of place carrying around a pimp stick.

I still frequent bars on my nights off, and one common item that is often looked over is a pool cue.  I often frequent bars that have at least one table, and while I may not make a night out of playing, I like to at least squeeze one game in here and there.  Carrying a pool cue in a case isn't that odd of a sight at night in downtown Honolulu or Waikiki.  Its a very grey mentality, I doubt any bar owner, police officer, or patron would give you a second look.  The lower end of a 2 piece stick makes a fantastic "escrima-esqe" stick.  When I would walk home from the bar, I would have the case already half zipped open, with just enough space to get my fingers in and pull.

A cheap walmart pool shooter will usually cost less than 20 bucks, and many would argue that they still shoot better than most house cues.

Just be a decent enough player... or people will give you crap how they beat you even though you're a "pro".
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: xxRENDOGxx on December 14, 2012, 10:42:51 PM
I had long wondered about the legality of extendable batons, such as ASP, here in Hawaii.  It seems no two gun stores would ever give me the same response as to whether it was legal to carry.  I finally emailed HPD directly and this was the response I got.

Hope you’re having a good morning.  The Hawaii Revised Statute or City and County Revised Ordinance had no law stating the public are not allowed to carry a collapsible baton. Collapsible baton is used in a commission of a crime than the person shall be arrested for the offense.

I saved the email just in case for whatever reason I needed some sort of documentation of it.

I later inquired to an officer in person of his veiwings to the legality.  He informed me that carrying it, and using it for self defense was perfectly legal.  But if at any point you are "playing around" with it, or for whatever reason have it extended in a non emergency circumstance, then you would be brandishiing a dangerous weapon and could be arrested.  As for wearing it out an open on the belt, he said that it is in the same vein as wearing a fixed blade knife, where while there may be no specific law against it, it may be up to the officers discrection to ask you to remove it as it is causing a "public disturbance".  And that not all officers may be 100% keen on the specifics of the law, and will er on the side of caution.

For the record, while I do once in awhile still carry the baton on me here and there, I find it too heavy and too much a burdon on normal day to day functions.  But I did in the past carry it when I felt the need for an added deterrent or layer of defense that pepper spray didn't always provide.  Like when I used to deliver pizzas in Wahiawa (always with my managers approval).
Thanks for the clarification. I picked up my collapsible baton a while ago just to keep in my truck.
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: 2aHawaii on December 15, 2012, 04:39:52 AM
I'd be careful with that baton. I've always been under the impression that they were illegal in Hawaii. I believe they are categorized as a billy club under HRS-134

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0051.htm (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0051.htm)
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: sworbeyegib on December 15, 2012, 12:55:40 PM
I'd be careful with that baton. I've always been under the impression that they were illegal in Hawaii. I believe they are categorized as a billy club under HRS-134

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0051.htm (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0051.htm)

In my original email to HPD, I brought up the term "billy club" specifically, and the vagueness surrounding that term.  The quote I posted earlier was the word for word email I had recieved back, minus the officers name.  The area seemed so grey that I really wanted real clarification.
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on December 21, 2012, 10:57:45 PM
I'd be careful with that baton. I've always been under the impression that they were illegal in Hawaii. I believe they are categorized as a billy club under HRS-134

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0051.htm (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0051.htm)

We 100% agree... We don't sell them... too much of a grey area... No batons, slap-jacks, night sticks, tazers, etc, etc... illegal or very sketchy...

Stick with Pepper Spray, Mace, Kubotans, Tactical Flashlights and Keychains, Personal Alarms, etc...  :shaka:

Trust me, we've checked....  ;)

Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: HiCarry on January 03, 2013, 03:43:55 PM
I disagree with the letter...the law (copied below) seems pretty clear to me.

 
Quote
§134-51  Deadly weapons; prohibitions; penalty.  (a)  Any person, not authorized by law, who carries concealed upon the person's self or within any vehicle used or occupied by the person or who is found armed with any dirk, dagger, blackjack, slug shot, billy, metal knuckles, pistol, or other deadly or dangerous weapon shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and may be immediately arrested without warrant by any sheriff, police officer, or other officer or person.  Any weapon, above enumerated, upon conviction of the one carrying or possessing it under this section, shall be summarily destroyed by the chief of police or sheriff.
     (b)  Whoever knowingly possesses or intentionally uses or threatens to use a deadly or dangerous weapon while engaged in the commission of a crime shall be guilty of a class C felony. [L 1937, c 123, §1; RL 1945, §11114; RL 1955, §267-25; HRS §727-25; ren L 1972, c 9, pt of §1; am L 1977, c 191, §2; am L 1983, c 267, §1; gen ch 1985; am L 1989, c 211, §10; am L 1990, c 195, §3 and c 281, §11; am L 1992, c 87, §4; am L 1993, c 226, §1; am L 1999, c 285, §2]
 
Case Notes
 
  Probable cause for violation of section when police officer saw gun in vehicle stopped for speeding.  430 F.2d 58.
  License to carry weapon as justification.  10 H. 585.
  Weapons discovered in automobile lawfully stopped for traffic offense; legality of search and seizure considered.  50 H. 461, 443 P.2d 149.
  Mentioned in connection with arrest without warrant after seeing pistol in automobile.  52 H. 497, 479 P.2d 800.
  "Other deadly or dangerous weapon" is limited to instruments whose sole design and purpose is to inflict bodily injury or death.  55 H. 531, 523 P.2d 299.
  A "diver's knife" is neither a "dangerous weapon" nor a "dagger".  "Deadly and dangerous weapon" is one designed primarily as a weapon or diverted from normal use and prepared for combat.  56 H. 374, 537 P.2d 14.
  Cane, butterfly and kitchen knives are not deadly or dangerous weapons.  56 H. 642, 547 P.2d 587.
  Sheathed sword-cane and wooden knuckles with shark's teeth were "deadly or dangerous weapons".  58 H. 514, 572 P.2d 1222.
  Statute does not require that weapons be "concealed" within the vehicle.  58 H. 514, 572 P.2d 1222.
  Vehicle stop being proper, seizure of weapons in plain view was authorized.  58 H. 514, 572 P.2d 1222.
  Shotgun is a deadly or dangerous weapon.  61 H. 135, 597 P.2d 210.
  A .22 caliber rifle is a "deadly or dangerous weapon".  63 H. 147, 621 P.2d 384.
  Nunchaku sticks are not per se deadly or dangerous weapons.  64 H. 485, 643 P.2d 546.
  The crime underlying a subsection (b) offense is, as a matter of law, an included offense of the subsection (b) offense, within the meaning of §701-109(4)(a), and defendant should not have been convicted of both the subsection (b) offense and the underlying second degree murder offense; thus, defendant’s conviction of the subsection (b) offense reversed.  88 H. 407, 967 P.2d 239.
  "Billy" as used in this section refers to "policeman’s club" or "truncheon"; a club-like implement designed for purpose of striking or killing fish is not a "billy"; section extends only to weapons deadly or dangerous to people.  10 H. App. 404, 876 P.2d 1348.
  Cited:  43 H. 347, 367; 10 H. App. 584, 880 P.2d 213.

Additionally, I asked a lawyer friend about this and he too thought it was pretty clear that us "citizens" cannot carry an expandable baton.....
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: hvybarrels on January 05, 2013, 01:28:13 AM
Can't even have a monkey fist even though we use them for work to get lines over tree limbs. Thanks a lot drunken sailors from the 1950's!
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: sworbeyegib on January 05, 2013, 12:44:39 PM
I might be stood corrected.

A Hawaii weapons law with vague interperatations... hush you say, thats never happened before!
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: Haoleb on January 05, 2013, 03:07:30 PM
How about a hammer or crowbar... Hellava lot more effective than a baton.
Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on January 15, 2013, 11:05:26 PM
Most recent trip and comments from TSA...

"Tactical Flashlight"... "As long as it's a flashlight..." [url]http://www.selfdefensesolutionshawaii.com/Tactical_Personal_Lights.html] (http://[/url)http://www.selfdefensesolutionshawaii.com/Tactical_Personal_Lights.html

"Heart Attack Key Chain"..Never a question so far ...http://www.selfdefensesolutionshawaii.com/PersonalAlarms_SelfDefense.html (http://www.selfdefensesolutionshawaii.com/PersonalAlarms_SelfDefense.html)

"Kubotan" Never a question so far... http://www.selfdefensesolutionshawaii.com/PersonalAlarms_SelfDefense.html (http://www.selfdefensesolutionshawaii.com/PersonalAlarms_SelfDefense.html)

Just a current fyi and travel info.... Plan ahead and do what you need to do to protect yourself and family!


Title: Re: Non/Less-than Lethal Carry...
Post by: TeamSDSHawaii on January 15, 2013, 11:12:45 PM
How about a hammer or crowbar... Hellava lot more effective than a baton.

Brought a sample large "J-bolt" with me during a recent trip... looks very much like a small crowbar during the xray for my carry-on.... needless to say a 5 minute explanation and a big no- no.!