Post by: hispdvic on November 23, 2015, 05:00:59 PM
Have fun !!
Post by: suka on November 23, 2015, 05:11:51 PM
Post by: hispdvic on November 23, 2015, 05:26:34 PM
Post by: Q on November 23, 2015, 05:46:03 PM
If you have sought treatment in the past or have any type of mental condition that no longer effects your ability to own firearms, you will need to get a a letter with specific wording in order for it to be accepted by the firearms department.
My question is: why isn't their webpage being updated with this information? Isn't that required by law?
Post by: suka on November 23, 2015, 05:55:18 PM
Hawaii Administrative Procedure Act (HRS 91-3)
Each rule adopted, amended or repealed will become effective ten days after filing it with the lieutenant governor if it is a state and with the county clerks if it is a county. -
Post by: GZire on November 23, 2015, 06:00:28 PM
To me the way I read this letter it's more like some upper management from HPD or the C&C probably is forcing Straub and Kaiser to sign off on a letter like this. The way in which the certification is phrased seems to be very provocative. Now keep in mind the way the disclaimer reads this is in regards to only the application for permit. I think this was intentionally phrased this way to make doctors think about civil suits later should someone be caught with a firearm that is not strictly following the letter (or otherwise spirit of the laws).
So F-U to the Chief of Police and to the Mayor Mr. Kirk Caldwell.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img903/1794/txCCzE.jpg)
Post by: Mr. Farknocker on November 23, 2015, 06:08:24 PM
Post by: mauidog on November 23, 2015, 06:12:43 PM
Secondly, this letter implies that the individual did at one time have one or more of the issues listed. This is no better than asking, "Did you stop beating your wife?" if you have never beaten her.
Are you sure this is for everyone and not just those who were denied by their health provider in the past?
Post by: scorpio ps on November 23, 2015, 06:17:54 PM
Post by: scorpio ps on November 23, 2015, 06:25:37 PM
Post by: dogman on November 23, 2015, 06:47:38 PM
Secondly, this letter implies that the individual did at one time have one or more of the issues listed.I was wondering the same thing, "has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction"..., does not seem like it would apply to everyone.
Are you sure this is for everyone and not just those who were denied by their health provider in the past?
Post by: stangzilla on November 23, 2015, 07:21:24 PM
I saw an outside psychologist and got the same letter done
Is this now for everyone even if they're not flagged?
Sounds like bs
Hopefully my letter will be honored by hpd, I just got it earlier this year and supposed to be good for a year
Post by: stangzilla on November 23, 2015, 07:22:45 PM
Post by: K30l4 on November 23, 2015, 07:22:50 PM
Does one have to have a Dr's note. What if you don't have or go to a Dr.Maybe lucky for you.
Post by: Heavies on November 23, 2015, 07:53:47 PM
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=20866.0
Post by: aieahound on November 23, 2015, 08:06:01 PM
Just a thought.
And not that it's a reason not to contact Wolfwood.
All the more reason in fact.
Never heard of Straub doing this or most Kaiser people for that matter.
Post by: robtmc on November 23, 2015, 08:22:57 PM
No mention of other counties joining the idiot bandwagon?
Post by: jimbo on November 23, 2015, 11:01:41 PM
Post by: mauidog on November 23, 2015, 11:23:42 PM
The permit application form and the waiver form shall be prescribed by the attorney general and shall be uniform throughout the State.
[§134-3.5] Disclosure for firearm permit and registration purposes. A health care provider or public health authority shall disclose health information, including protected health care information, relating to an individual's mental health history, to the appropriate county chief of police in response to a request for the information from the chief of police; provided that:
(1) The information shall be used only for the purpose of evaluating the individual's fitness to acquire or own a firearm; and
(2) The individual has signed a waiver permitting release of the health information for that purpose. [L 2001, c 252, §1]
I don't see anything that says the applicant must have a direct examination or interview with the physician before any health information can be provided, nor that the applicant is required to contact the healthcare professional in any fashion. The law states the Chief of Police must submit the request, and the healthcare professional responds directly to the Chief of Police.
This is exactly the same issue as the non-naturalized US Resident being required to do his own background check though his consulate.
HPD cannot ask us to do our own background check. That is not only adding cost to the permit process (paying for an office visit), but it also lends itself to fraud. When you allow the applicant to take part in his own background check, he'll find a way to get around it.
Post by: scorpio ps on November 24, 2015, 12:07:56 AM
Post by: Q on November 24, 2015, 01:58:51 AM
I'm Kaiser and I just applied for a permit to acquire a pistol last week, should i go down to hpd and ask if i need this clearance form? Or chance it and go try pick it up next week?
Play it safe, spare yourself the trouble/wasted gas and schedule an appointment with kaiser to get this letter.
I went in with exactly what I needed, per the instructions provided by HPDFD administration; no example was provided, but they told me what my documents needed to say. I went above and beyond to make sure it included everything outlined in HRS 134-7, to ensure there was no reasonable doubt that there was any reason I should be denied according to my doctor.
I came in with the documents, and they told me that I needed to use the letterhead format that they now have on hand, even though the documents I provided are worded essentially exactly the same.
When an officer said that my documents basically say the same thing that the letterhead does, the other officer said he isn't going to accept something unless it's exactly worded the way the letter is.
Hooray for HPD making up more bullshit rules as they go along.
Post by: jimbo on November 24, 2015, 05:07:35 AM
Play it safe, spare yourself the trouble/wasted gas and schedule an appointment with kaiser to get this letter.Got an example of what exactly it should say and look like? My primary physician retired a few years ago so I just picked the closest docter to me. Never actually had an appointment with him before. Hopefully he'll write the letter. Might just change insurance because of this.
I went in with exactly what I needed, per the instructions provided by HPDFD administration; no example was provided, but they told me what my documents needed to say. I went above and beyond to make sure it included everything outlined in HRS 134-7, to ensure there was no reasonable doubt that there was any reason I should be denied according to my doctor.
I came in with the documents, and they told me that I needed to use the letterhead format that they now have on hand, even though the documents I provided are worded essentially exactly the same.
When an officer said that my documents basically say the same thing that the letterhead does, the other officer said he isn't going to accept something unless it's exactly worded the way the letter is.
Hooray for HPD making up more bullshit rules as they go along.
Post by: stangzilla on November 24, 2015, 05:13:40 AM
Post by: stangzilla on November 24, 2015, 05:16:42 AM
Their policy is their doctors will not write a clearance letter
And this is written by kaiser
You have to see an outside doctor and pay out of pocket
I smell big big bullshit!
Post by: hispdvic on November 24, 2015, 06:43:33 AM
Post by: stangzilla on November 24, 2015, 07:17:09 AM
Quote
Our Policy On Requests for Medical Clearance for Firearms Permits
Dear Member:
We have received your request or inquiry regarding a medical clearance in relation to an application for a firearms permit.
We are sorry to inform you that Kaiser Permanente physicians are unable to provide this type of evaluation. Typically these requests ask our doctors to state that a person “shall own, possess or control any firearm or ammunition” and that they are free of any issues that would preclude gun ownership. Our independent physicians in the Hawaii Permanente Medical Group do not feel that it is appropriate for physicians to give opinions on whether or not someone should own or possess a weapon or ammunition. In addition, Kaiser Permanente’s current benefit structure does not provide coverage for such types of evaluations.
You may choose to see an independent practitioner in the community, at your own expense, to provide an assessment regarding your capacity to obtain or operate a firearm. We will provide that practitioner with copies of your past medical and/or mental health records upon presentation of a properly executed authorization form.
We regret any inconvenience this may cause you.
from this letter, kaiser isn't making a decision one way or the other
so who's making that decision for denial based on medical or psychological basis, hpd?
Post by: GZire on November 24, 2015, 09:15:03 AM
This is what I have to do bc I got red flagged
I saw an outside psychologist and got the same letter done
Is this now for everyone even if they're not flagged?
Sounds like bs
Hopefully my letter will be honored by hpd, I just got it earlier this year and supposed to be good for a year
I was not red flagged. The officer at the window took care to explain that to me. FWIW the two officers at the window did seem sympathetic, but their hands are tied by the higher ups.
This being said I have to deal with it. My PCP is with a Straub center, but I'm a HMSA member...........so yeah don't think for an instance that whoever pushed this policy through is not thinking about extending this to everyone. Also as stated above the way the certification is phrased it is basically saying that you at some time in the past (even if you never have) were nuts.
In addition to this it will shift more of this onto the doctors. So now HPD is trying to clog up your doctor's office. I also have no doubt in my mind that they are also thinking that this would also mean more potential fees for you to have to make an appointment for your doctor to get this note.
Post by: GZire on November 24, 2015, 09:17:26 AM
For the people that are concerned, if you applied prior to yesterday, the new changes do not affect you.
True, however keep in mind that when you apply in the future regardless of it being for a pistol permit or a long rifle/shotgun, it may now apply to you.
It is my firm belief that the person(s) pushing this agenda want to expand it to cover everyone. If I was you and if I didn't have Straub/Kaiser I wouldn't be so sure that you won't get pulled into this in the future.
Post by: Heavies on November 24, 2015, 09:32:29 AM
True, however keep in mind that when you apply in the future regardless of it being for a pistol permit or a long rifle/shotgun, it may now apply to you.This. I think this exactly the plan
It is my firm belief that the person(s) pushing this agenda want to expand it to cover everyone. If I was you and if I didn't have Straub/Kaiser I wouldn't be so sure that you won't get pulled into this in the future.
Post by: stangzilla on November 24, 2015, 10:50:09 AM
if HPD loses the original it is your responsability to go get another letter
if you also have an original, its good backup.
Post by: JHanawahine on November 24, 2015, 11:07:54 AM
when you do go to a doctor to get the letter, also have him send an original to you as well as HPDI bring the original & a copy.Show original(if asked) submit copy with application.Most likely HPD will NOT check records for your clearance letter from your doctor & tell you to come back with one
if HPD loses the original it is your responsability to go get another letter
if you also have an original, its good backup.
Post by: scorpio ps on November 24, 2015, 11:30:03 AM
In the past Kaiser sent the whole medical record to HPD. HPD says "we are not doctors can't read or understand what it says". True
"Our corporation attorney worded the document so that theres no doubt to the mental and drug related issues, not now not ever".
Kaiser's internal policy prohibits them from writing this type of letter. They will release medical info but not write a letter with the verbage required.
That leaves one option only. Find a doctor that has never seen you as a patient, doesn't know you from a hole in the ground, to give you a medical clearance letter. Really... how legal is that and what real doctor would want to stick their neck out.
It is very obvious that this letter is specifically meant to prevent one from acquiring as it presents hurdles that are insurmountable. Contact your politicians right away. Don't be a woose.
Post by: ren on November 24, 2015, 11:40:38 AM
Post by: macsak on November 24, 2015, 11:44:29 AM
I went down this am and I am a Kaiser member. Here's the skinny.
In the past Kaiser sent the whole medical record to HPD. HPD says "we are not doctors can't read or understand what it says". True
"Our corporation attorney worded the document so that theres no doubt to the mental and drug related issues, not now not ever".
Kaiser's internal policy prohibits them from writing this type of letter. They will release medical info but not write a letter with the verbage required.
That leaves one option only. Find a doctor that has never seen you as a patient, doesn't know you from a hole in the ground, to give you a medical clearance letter. Really... how legal is that and what real doctor would want to stick their neck out.
It is very obvious that this letter is specifically meant to prevent one from acquiring as it presents hurdles that are insurmountable. Contact your politicians right away. Don't be a woose.
there's a post on the first page of this thread that has a thread started by "wolfwood", who is a 2a lawyer here in HNL that is pursuing these cases
please contact him
Post by: Inspector on November 24, 2015, 12:22:02 PM
I am curious how this is going to work with my C&R? In the past I buy the gun and it is delivered to my front door. Then I take it down to HPD and register it. The request to the doctor is sent AFTER I register the gun and it is sitting in my safe. What are they going to do if it comes back negative? Come to my house and confiscate my gun(s)? would they confiscate just the one or all of them?
All this does is encourage law abiding citizens to make end runs around the law. Let's face it, in a long gun sale you have the gun and take it in to HPD to register it. I understand the consequences of not registering but what prevents someone from not registering the long gun? Same goes if one has a C&R FFL. Once someone obtains the gun (Pistol, revolver or long gun), HPD never knows you don't have it. I am not saying I am encouraging anyone to do this. I have never done it. But what is stopping someone from not registering their guns? :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
Post by: Inspector on November 24, 2015, 12:23:30 PM
Post by: macsak on November 24, 2015, 12:28:41 PM
But what is stopping someone from not registering their guns?
because no one on this forum does anything illegal...
Post by: HermitRock on November 24, 2015, 12:49:16 PM
this is kaiser's letter:
from this letter, kaiser isn't making a decision one way or the other
so who's making that decision for denial based on medical or psychological basis, hpd?
THIS is what concerns me and was something I had planned to ask about. Depression runs in my family and a suicide attempt several years back has been documented in my records.
It's also not uncommon for women to experience depression after having children due to hormone changes.
(With that said, after having my own kids it forced me to realize it's not just about me and I have a responsibility to be there for them. Period. I worked my okole off to make sure I never let myself get to that point again.)
I also believe that there is a HUGE difference between experiencing depression versus issues with aggression or psychosis.
I realize doctors don't want to stick their necks out, so then who makes the decision when they do that background check? Is HPD basically going to take a glance at my background check and automatically deny my PTA without context? (I know they'll deny me on the CC, but I am also worried about the PTA.)
I have medicare and tricare for insurance. Is it only Kaiser that people are having issues with now?
Post by: mauidog on November 24, 2015, 12:58:17 PM
Otherwise voters might be reduced to simply voting for a political party or gender, simply because they aren't capable of voting responsibly!
:crazy:
Post by: aieahound on November 24, 2015, 01:19:06 PM
Might be a dumb question as it sounds confirmed, but I can't believe it as it sounds too far out of bounds.
Post by: Q on November 24, 2015, 01:27:42 PM
Is this confirmed that this is now happening to everyone with Straub and Kaiser ?
Might be a dumb question as it sounds confirmed, but I can't believe it as it sounds too far out of bounds.
They are already too far out of bounds, but what can we do?
These asshats keep making up bullshit policies as they go along.
Post by: Heavies on November 24, 2015, 01:37:13 PM
If this is the trend, we should also require everyone wanting to vote to pass a psych eval, as well as a current events test. Surely we don't want the mentally ill and the uninformed to vote in our elections, do we?This makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Imagine how many people are killed yearly from poor political decisions and policy..... :crazy:
Otherwise voters might be reduced to simply voting for a political party or gender, simply because they aren't capable of voting responsibly!
:crazy:
Post by: jimbo on November 24, 2015, 01:48:37 PM
For the people that are concerned, if you applied prior to yesterday, the new changes do not affect you.just to clarify, hpd confirms this?
Post by: HiCarry on November 24, 2015, 01:51:12 PM
I went down this am and I am a Kaiser member. Here's the skinny.
In the past Kaiser sent the whole medical record to HPD. HPD says "we are not doctors can't read or understand what it says". True
"Our corporation attorney worded the document so that theres no doubt to the mental and drug related issues, not now not ever".
Kaiser's internal policy prohibits them from writing this type of letter. They will release medical info but not write a letter with the verbage required.
That leaves one option only. Find a doctor that has never seen you as a patient, doesn't know you from a hole in the ground, to give you a medical clearance letter. Really... how legal is that and what real doctor would want to stick their neck out.
It is very obvious that this letter is specifically meant to prevent one from acquiring as it presents hurdles that are insurmountable. Contact your politicians right away. Don't be a woose.
Therein lies the issue with Kaiser. Hawaii has a statue that provides indemnification for healthcare providers in regards to providing medical information and an "opinion" on the patient's suitability for owning a firearm. So, no physician, or healthcare provider, should be terribly concerned about liability.
Post by: scorpio ps on November 24, 2015, 03:46:46 PM
"Therein lies the issue with Kaiser. Hawaii has a statue that provides indemnification for healthcare providers in regards to providing medical information and an "opinion" on the patient's suitability for owning a firearm. So, no physician, or healthcare provider, should be terribly concerned about liability".
This does not absolve them of being sued and going through the process of defending themselves. A law suit is the only thing that will sort this out. Call and email your representative and convince them in a civil manner how this is virtually preventing you from purchasing a weapon that you should rightfully be able to.
Post by: Paredesp on November 24, 2015, 03:58:22 PM
Registered a long gun with permit I got in July.
Applied for handgun permit and confirmed this entire fiasco!!!!
Spent the whole day calling around to find a Doctor willing to write the letter. No luck
Post by: aieahound on November 24, 2015, 04:01:29 PM
This sucks. >:(
Post by: stangzilla on November 24, 2015, 04:13:07 PM
Need help! Went to HPD today. I have Kaiser!
Registered a long gun with permit I got in July.
Applied for handgun permit and confirmed this entire fiasco!!!!
Spent the whole day calling around to find a Doctor willing to write the letter. No luck
PM sent
Post by: HiCarry on November 24, 2015, 04:39:55 PM
"Therein lies the issue with Kaiser. Hawaii has a statue that provides indemnification for healthcare providers in regards to providing medical information and an "opinion" on the patient's suitability for owning a firearm. So, no physician, or healthcare provider, should be terribly concerned about liability".
This does not absolve them of being sued and going through the process of defending themselves. A law suit is the only thing that will sort this out. Call and email your representative and convince them in a civil manner how this is virtually preventing you from purchasing a weapon that you should rightfully be able to.
And nothing does "absolve them of being sued and going through the process...." As we tell everyone, "any one can be sued for anything at any time."
You could, if you wanted, sue them for not providing you the letter for HPD. They would still have to go through the process of defending themselves....
Post by: HermitRock on November 24, 2015, 04:44:32 PM
I'll be taking it down ahead of time and try to get my doctor to sign one for me. Will post if it's *possible* under a different insurance (whether she signs one for me or not).
Post by: GZire on November 24, 2015, 05:21:14 PM
Is this confirmed that this is now happening to everyone with Straub and Kaiser ?
Might be a dumb question as it sounds confirmed, but I can't believe it as it sounds too far out of bounds.
Yes I can personally confirm that I am getting forced to do the letter. I have 0 family, past, or current mental issues. My primary care physician (PCP) is affiliated with a Straub clinic and my insurance is through HMSA. I will have to contact my PCP and see if he will provide a letter. Been so busy I haven't been able to get to it.
just to clarify, hpd confirms this?
Yes HPD said the policy is only going into effect as of Monday, 11/23. If you applied last Friday you should be in the clear for this round, but again when you apply for a future permit......................
Post by: scorpio ps on November 24, 2015, 05:36:01 PM
Remember its a service they don't have to provide. Me sue Kaiser?.... Lets all be realistic here.
The best thing to do right now is to stand up, email your representatives and the chief of police. Inundate them with emails. Don't be a bystander as this will affect everyone. if and when a lawsuit is necessary, be generous. Remember you spend a ton of money on firearms and more later on led down range. I have already contacted Richard Holcomb the attorney, I suggest you all do the same. There are three kinds of people. Those that make things happen. Those that watch things happen, and then there are those that wonder if anything did happen. Lets knock this out.
Post by: Gordyf on November 24, 2015, 06:14:51 PM
Just wrote my Rep, a new guy who has promised me that he supports our cause. He is one of us.
Beats the shit out of Blake Oshiro even if he only half supports.
Promised him I would get a copy of the requirements, but I could not print the page from Gzires post.
G, have you or anyone got a printer friendly copy??
Please PM it to me.
Thanks
Gordy
Post by: whynow? on November 24, 2015, 06:30:02 PM
Post by: scorpio ps on November 24, 2015, 06:43:48 PM
I have HMSA but don't doubt that this kind of kukae may apply to everyone in the near future. Maybe another backdoor attempt to infringe on individual natural rights in this country.
It makes no difference if you have HMSA or Kaiser. If you go to Kaiser or Straub you will need to get the letter. If you go elsewhere , you will need the letter.
Post by: Bullit1987 on November 24, 2015, 06:45:47 PM
line is that Kaiser made an error and disqualified me for a PTA. HPD gave me the letter that has
been posted here.
When I went to my doctor (Dr Minami) he told me by letter that physicians at Kaiser
Hawaii do not personally participate in the disqualification of applicants for firearms.
It was in a form letter and I hope I kept it. When I finally got the problem straightened
out I found that Kaiser Admin is (at that time at least) the party within Kaiser that communicated
with HPD, not my personal doctor.
The manager at Kaiser Admin told me that they look at my medical record for the account
codes associated with the psychology department - that's what the problem was for me, a
new employee simply say a psych account charge and sent a letter of disqualification
without further investigation. The Kaiser Admin manager told me that the proper procedure
was to refer the matter to a supervisor which will check deeeper into the type of account coding
this was. She said there are strict rules on what Admin can see in your record. What this code was
is a referral to a nutritionist (I'm overweight). That's all it was.
Kaiser apologized and verified with HPD that there was no problem (in fact, I had applied several
times since the disqualification for PTAs and had no problem. That was the aggravating fact of the
deal was that I was disqualified in August 2012 but HPD didn't catch up for 14 months, wtf?).
I found Kaiser to be very, very helpful and honest about the error with me, apologized and
contacted HPD (twice) to inform them that I was disqualified in error.
The letter posted here from HPD is the exact same letter given to me by HPD to take to my doctor.
Verbatim. So this has been around for awhile. I suspect that when there is a problem, like a
previous illness or condition, this letter is issued for clearance above and beyond the normal
clearance given.
So what you guys are describing here is a dramatic change in policy since the fall of 2013
when I went thru this. When I shared this letter from HPD with a firearms owner who
is a local attorney, he was a bit surprised at the content and tone. He described it as
belligerent and probably not written by an attorney but a layperson. He wondered if any doctor
would sign this.
I am going to contact Kaiser Admin soon to verfiy this new policy.
Post by: zippz on November 24, 2015, 06:46:36 PM
Post by: scorpio ps on November 24, 2015, 07:00:08 PM
Post by: causa mortis on November 24, 2015, 07:17:11 PM
Should I go ahead and purchase what I was going to and just see what happens?
Post by: dustoff003 on November 24, 2015, 07:22:55 PM
Need help! Went to HPD today. I have Kaiser!
Registered a long gun with permit I got in July.
Applied for handgun permit and confirmed this entire fiasco!!!!
Spent the whole day calling around to find a Doctor willing to write the letter. No luck
How's about the Doctor that advertises in the HRA newsletter.(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/29/e0f6240e0bcb86940cb36fc270cf38b9.jpg)
Disclaimer I don't know nor have I ever seen the above referenced physician. If he advertises in the HRA newsletter one would think he'd be 2a friendly.
Another option would be to pool our funds and send macsak back to school to be an MD.
Post by: Dumbgun on November 24, 2015, 09:05:13 PM
I Last bought both a rifle and pistol in August of last year no problem.They had the kaiser authorization slip there at window then.
So I went to Waipio Kaiser to get clearancae from my DR. Told by, receptionist, Kaiser won't do it and haven't done it in ten years. Emailed Dr. and received this email from him.
To:
XXXXXXXX
From:
JONATHAN H SHUN MD, MD
Received:
11/24/2015 7:02 PM HST
Hello Mr. xxxxx,
Sorry about the inconvenience. I just printed out Kaiser's policy on 'Requests for Medical Clearance for Firearms Permits'. This form states Kaiser physicians 'are unable to provide this type of evaluation'. Therefore, as an employee of Kaiser, neither I, nor any other Kaiser physician, is allowed to provide any form of medical clearance related to firearms permits.
Kaiser does state (in the letter) that 'you may choose to see an independent practitioner in the community, at your own expense, to provide an assessment regarding your capacity to obtain or operate a firearm'. If necessary, you can sign out your medical records to assist the outside practitioner in providing you the medical clearance. I hope this information is helpful.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Shun MD
Message cut and copied from Kaiser message center. Only my name has been exed out. F*** kaiser and F*** my DR. thats my policy
C.Y.A. , P.C., B.S., via POS, D.R.
For the record I have no arrests nor disqualifying mental history, ever. If a class action is filed feel free to contact me. If I haven't fled this worse then california F****** state
Post by: Heavies on November 24, 2015, 09:12:15 PM
Quote
Attention all you Kaiser members who have had some problems with HPD in
obtaining firearms permits.
The same attorney that took on HDF's Chris
Baker's case and the resident alien (Fotoudis) case, is looking for Kaiser
members for a possible legal action. If you are a Kaiser member and have had any
problems relating to obtaining a firearm permit, please given him a call to
discuss your circumstances. He is particularly interested in the gentleman who
was denied based on some diabetic counseling he received.
Here's the
contact info:
Richard Holcomb
(808) 545-4040
Here is the info again, so no one has to go through all of the tread. I will also sticky the other topic to the top of legal and activism.
Post by: macsak on November 24, 2015, 09:27:01 PM
Here is the info again, so no one has to go through all of the tread. I will also sticky the other topic to the top of legal and activism.
oh, man, guys
it's on
EVERYONE with kaiser and straub call wolfwood ASAP
Post by: Q on November 24, 2015, 10:09:10 PM
oh, man, guys
it's on
EVERYONE with kaiser and straub call wolfwood ASAP
I think this is starting to progress beyond Kaiser and Straub, and starting to involve everyone.
Post by: mauidog on November 24, 2015, 10:14:58 PM
How, exactly, does a doctor who never met or treated you before writing you a clearance letter make the public safer?
Yes, that's a rhetorical question...
Post by: macsak on November 24, 2015, 10:20:16 PM
I think this is starting to progress beyond Kaiser and Straub, and starting to involve everyone.
possible, but we have to start somewhere, and obviously straub and kaiser have drawn the line in the sand, and they have to be stopped
stop them, and no one else should try and do it
we need to make as big a case as soon as possible against these two if we have any chance of keeping it from spreading
Post by: dustoff003 on November 24, 2015, 10:32:52 PM
Yes I can personally confirm that I am getting forced to do the letter. I have 0 family, past, or current mental issues. My primary care physician (PCP) is affiliated with a Straub clinic and my insurance is through HMSA. I will have to contact my PCP and see if he will provide a letter. Been so busy I haven't been able to get to it.
I wonder if I will be in the same boat? I have HMSA and my GP is not a Straub doctor per se but his office is a also a Straub location and he is listed as a Hawaii Health Partner physician, https://www.hawaiihealthpartners.org/about-hhp/overview/ HHP is somehow tied in to Hawaii Pacific Health Straub's over all organization. Next time I go I will have to ask him if he even see's whatever it is that HPD sends when I apply for a permit and if so what he does with it.
Post by: Colt808 on November 25, 2015, 03:00:46 AM
I know this isn't the section for this stuff, but more people will see it. Starting today at HPD if you are going to do the paper work to get a permit to aquire (Rifle or Handgun), Kaiser and Straub Hospital changed their procedure. You now have to go and see your personal Doctor have them submit a letter with the Hospital letterhead, saying your not nuts on drugs etc... They then can fax a copy, but still have to mail in the original or if your Doctor will let you, you can take it in when you go to pick up your permit. If the don't let you take the original or a copy in, and they don't fax or mail it in by the last pickup date for your permit, you will have to do the whole 2 week back ground check again.
Have fun !!
The problem with Kaiser and Straub has been known for a long time. Anyone denied should request a copy of what was provided that disqualified you. It is likely that they (the providers) are interpreting the waiver as their qualifying your medical/mental ability to possess/own and as a result send a letter stating they can not do that. That "form" provided by HPD (posted on page 1) is an outline for what is required because of how the provider(s) are wording "clearance letters". From that point of view it would seem that that outline is provided to help those who are having issues.
Instead of getting mad at the officers at the desk or thinking conspiracy, I feel time would be better spent directing your efforts and outrage at the source of the problem...https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=20866.0
Post by: stangzilla on November 25, 2015, 05:35:50 AM
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 25, 2015, 06:00:44 AM
Why does anyone here still have Kaiser?
Maybe we just need to find a doctor who is friendly to gun rights and we can just see him/her?
Post by: Inspector on November 25, 2015, 06:38:40 AM
Dumb question:Some of us don't have a choice since it is employer provided and we can't afford to pay cash for our healthcare.
Why does anyone here still have Kaiser?
Maybe we just need to find a doctor who is friendly to gun rights and we can just see him/her?
Post by: scorpio ps on November 25, 2015, 06:41:12 AM
Instead of getting mad at the officers at the desk or thinking conspiracy, I feel time would be better spent directing your efforts and outrage at the source of the problem...https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=20866.0
The police are trying to do their job. But don't think for one moment that they want nothing better than to be the only ones with the gun. They were very irritated when I started to respectfully question the implication of the letter and who was the author. Six officers came to the window. I turned on the recorder and at first they resisted talking to me. I spoke with the Sgt, who was very nice and just truing to do his job. Not sure what you mean by the "source of the problem". The letter from your doctor has to use the statement at the top.of the page. It is not a template or outline. That statement implies that you've had mental and drug dependency issues in the past. That statement doesn't apply to me. So far I have sent emails to the mayor, chief of police and my representatives.
Post by: scorpio ps on November 25, 2015, 06:51:35 AM
Post by: scorpio ps on November 25, 2015, 06:56:57 AM
Post by: mikenkapolei on November 25, 2015, 07:45:12 AM
Post by: Drakiir84 on November 25, 2015, 07:47:21 AM
Changed the wording a little cuz I ain't never been no addict or crazy person......
"To whom it may concern,
“Insert name here” shall own, possess or control any firearm or ammunition and has never been medically documented to be adversely affected by the addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect.
Sincerely,
The Fucking Doctor"
Just want to be sure that this is all the letter has to say......
Post by: dustoff003 on November 25, 2015, 08:32:59 AM
Is anyone here a patient of Dr. Charles Arakaki? Maybe he'd write clearance letters after all what's more manly than a firearm.
Post by: scorpio ps on November 25, 2015, 08:38:44 AM
So glad I read this before buying a handgun on Friday.... So basically all my boss (a doctor) needs to do is copy paste the statement that GZire has on the first page right? He's not a fan of doing any more work than he already has to lol.
Changed the wording a little cuz I ain't never been no addict or crazy person......
"To whom it may concern,
“Insert name here” shall own, possess or control any firearm or ammunition and has never been medically documented to be adversely affected by the addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect.
Sincerely,
The Fucking Doctor"
Just want to be sure that this is all the letter has to say......
Smartest thing I've I have heard so far. Remember ladies and gentlemen. If you use their format verbitom, it implies that you've had these issues in the past. That could come back and bite you in the ass. One day out of no where they will come up with a new rule. Like "give your guns, past mental and drug addiction no longer allows for you to have guns. Change the wording slightly by adding "to my knowledge" in between " been and medically ". "to my knowledge has never been documented"
Post by: Heavies on November 25, 2015, 09:09:33 AM
I would slow down and look at everything VERY CAREFULLY before turning anything in.. JMHO
Post by: Drakiir84 on November 25, 2015, 09:14:10 AM
Yep the terms "no longer adversely affected....." sounds like a trap to me. No way I would submit that. There IS an implication that you were at one time affected, even if you where not. I am not a lawyer, but I do know when people lawyer, one needs to look at every minute detail of the language. It is there for a reason.
I would slow down and look at everything VERY CAREFULLY before turning anything in.. JMHO
Agreed, that's why I changed the wording. Just want to be clear that the above statement is all that needs to be addressed. My boss already agreed to sign it.
Post by: Heavies on November 25, 2015, 09:20:37 AM
Post by: ren on November 25, 2015, 09:42:10 AM
Post by: aieahound on November 25, 2015, 10:34:35 AM
I don't know how accurate it is but they said if you've never been red flagged the letter just needs to say you've never been treated for substance or alcohol abuse and have never been treated for a mental/psychiatric disorder.
Still a pain in the ass and out of pocket expenses though.
The verbatim letter is for if you were flagged or they can't write the above due to something in your past medical records.
Again, this is just info from one officer but someone should try it.
Post by: mauidog on November 25, 2015, 10:44:03 AM
I talked to HPD Firearms division.
I don't know how accurate it is but they said if you've never been red flagged the letter just needs to say you've never been treated for substance or alcohol abuse and have never been treated for a mental/psychiatric disorder.
Still a pain in the ass and out of pocket expenses though.
The verbatim letter is for if you were flagged or they can't write the above due to something in your past medical records.
Again, this is just info from one officer but someone should try it.
If that's the case, Kaiser should have no problem signing a letter stating the fact you have had no such disorders, treatments, or visits.
The part about being qualified to own and handle firearms and ammunition is superfluous. HPD should not require the HMO to give an evaluation if there are no disqualifying flags in your record. HPD can make that determination based on the absence of any disqualifying evidence.
Post by: Heavies on November 25, 2015, 10:44:49 AM
I talked to HPD Firearms division.I respectfully disagree, I do not believe it is their duty nor privilege to try and legislate new law or requirement. I wouldn't submit to new policy with out further information from someone that is versed in such matters. I'd put stuff on hold and get this settled. This is how they chip, chip, chip away your rights.
I don't know how accurate it is but they said if you've never been red flagged the letter just needs to say you've never been treated for substance or alcohol abuse and have never been treated for a mental/psychiatric disorder.
Still a pain in the ass and out of pocket expenses though.
The verbatim letter is for if you were flagged or they can't write the above due to something in your past medical records.
Again, this is just info from one officer but someone should try it.
I have just completed writing all my reps in city and state. I will like to see some investigation and action from them.
Post by: aieahound on November 25, 2015, 11:10:40 AM
This is just a suggestion for the guys not putting it on hold.
Black Friday and all.
Post by: causa mortis on November 25, 2015, 11:18:07 AM
Post by: Heavies on November 25, 2015, 11:22:39 AM
So, should we just buy what we want on Black Friday and keep at the guns store until this is resolved? What would happen if I bought a long gun and went to HPD to register it? If they denied me registering w/out the letter, wouldn't I be in possession of an illegal firearm after 5 days?if you bought a longgun you would already have your permit to acquire (for this year) and it would not affect you, yet... handgun, You would have to leave it with the FFL until it is straight, and/or encourage the FFL's to get involved with this. They stand to lose big money on this issue.
Post by: Drakiir84 on November 25, 2015, 11:30:09 AM
Post by: aieahound on November 25, 2015, 11:30:52 AM
if you bought a longgun you would already have your permit to acquire (for this year) and it would not affect you, yet... handgun, You would have to leave it with the FFL until it is straight, and/or encourage the FFL's to get involved with this. They stand to lose big money on this issue.
That's my understanding.
Only applies to people who didn't apply for their permit prior to Monday, 11/23/15.
Registration is not a problem, it's only the new permit process that is screwed up.
Daddy needs a new S&W JM 929.Yeah Baby ! :thumbsup:
Post by: Drakiir84 on November 25, 2015, 11:38:36 AM
Also first revolver!
Post by: K30l4 on November 25, 2015, 12:17:00 PM
Post by: j10nke on November 25, 2015, 12:46:05 PM
Post by: HermitRock on November 25, 2015, 01:16:27 PM
While I was at HPD yesterday, there was a gentleman inquiring about the issue of change in required paperwork. The most interesting comment made by the officer ( wasn't a sgt) was that this new requirement was happening only here in Honolulu. Why only Honolulu? That's jam up.
Seems like someone has his panties in a bunch and decided to find a way to take it out on something he didn't like or agree with. I mean seriously now. Why only Honolulu? There's nothing that I can think of to warrant it.
Related question though - Are the PTAs state wide or by county? If it's only in Honolulu, would someone be able to fly over to one of the other islands and get a permit there? If so, it could be a work around for those having trouble with Kaiser and Straub.
Post by: stangzilla on November 25, 2015, 02:02:57 PM
friend of mine just went today.
now hpd is making everyone do fingerprints each time you get another gun.
and only 1 person in the firearms division at a time, with an officer outside the door guarding.
so each person takes 15-20 minutes, minimum. if you got multi guns, be prepared to wait and wait!
making the process much, much longer to complete.
so it's getting worse for us 2A people. >:(
Post by: Dumbgun on November 25, 2015, 02:16:44 PM
Kaiser members good luck finding a DR. they all sent me back to my PCP. I told them I was with Kaiser. I next tried saying I was uninsured, No matter what you do you will get rejected. I even showed them my long gun permit which is still valid. No Joy.
If you try finding a DR in Waipahu forget about it. You might as well sign on in taking legal action.
Will try DR.s other forum members suggested. I really want to get my hands on this shooter.
Post by: jimbo on November 25, 2015, 02:16:55 PM
something new to add to the fire.wow more and more bullshit everyday
friend of mine just went today.
now hpd is making everyone do fingerprints each time you get another gun.
and only 1 person in the firearms division at a time, with an officer outside the door guarding.
so each person takes 15-20 minutes, minimum. if you got multi guns, be prepared to wait and wait!
making the process much, much longer to complete.
so it's getting worse for us 2A people. >:(
Post by: scorpio ps on November 25, 2015, 02:37:41 PM
Seems like someone has his panties in a bunch and decided to find a way to take it out on something he didn't like or agree with. I mean seriously now. Why only Honolulu? There's nothing that I can think of to warrant it.
Related question though - Are the PTAs state wide or by county? If it's only in Honolulu, would someone be able to fly over to one of the other islands and get a permit there? If so, it could be a work around for those having trouble with Kaiser and Straub.
Keep in mind the law is a "State Law" covers all counties. I was told twice why here in Honolulu only. " On the outer Islands Kaiser responds favorably. On Oahu they both don't or they respond with the whole medical record. HPD feels like they are not doctors and they don't want to look through your whole medical record. But the law states that they should get access to it. Many reasons for the difference. Small place, could be a relative or friend, not that much demand.... Now keep in mind that Kaiser doesn't have to respond at all. I had another exchange today at HPD.
From the Sgt I spoke with " This is temporary while we negotiate with Kaiser and Straub, since they don't want to play ball. The verbiage is like that because we assume that you have or have had mental or drug dependency issues until proven otherwise by a doctor". They want us to put pressure on the hospitals. Remember the hospital doesn't have to reply. If there's no reply and if no other reasons there to prevent you from getting the permit, it must be awarded. Don't fall for the "call the hospital customer service and complain to them". The problem is at HPD.
It would be helpful to post all of your exchanges with HPD regarding this matter. Please try to be accurate in your posts with facts only. If you are told something, ask a follow up question to clarify. If they tell you that if you've never been red flagged the letter just needs to say you've never been treated for substance or alcohol abuse and have never been treated for a mental/psychiatric disorder. Ask the follow up question. Is that for every applicant including Kaiser and Straub. Make sure someone else is there and if you have to, ask again.
Post by: scorpio ps on November 25, 2015, 02:42:59 PM
I just talked to Holcomb, have meeting on Tuesday 9am. he is seeking clients so far myself and one other, another backed out.
Kaiser members good luck finding a DR. they all sent me back to my PCP. I told them I was with Kaiser. I next tried saying I was uninsured, No matter what you do you will get rejected. I even showed them my long gun permit which is still valid. No Joy.
If you try finding a DR in Waipahu forget about it. You might as well sign on in taking legal action.
Will try DR.s other forum members suggested. I really want to get my hands on this shooter.
My appointment is Friday 12/11 I'm all in on this. Come join the party. It's free and the more the better. My issue is not with Kaiser or Straub. My issue is with HPD and the verbiage.
Post by: HiCarry on November 25, 2015, 04:06:00 PM
My appointment is Friday 12/11 I'm all in on this. Come join the party. It's free and the more the better. My issue is not with Kaiser or Straub. My issue is with HPD and the verbiage.
I spoke to Mr. Holcomb last night about this new requirement and about the potential Kaiser lawsuit. First, I need some clarification so I can pass it on to Mr. Holmcomb. Is this new requirement just for Kaiser and Straub patients (it sounds as if it is...)? And, is this new requirement for all new permits or only for those that have been previously "red flagged?"
If you go to an "outside" doctor for an evaluation after a denial by Kaiser, how does that physician meet the requirement of sending in a letter on Kaiser letterhead?
Your issue should be with Kaiser and HPD. Kaiser is the instigator of this problem. They are the ones that won't cooperate with providing you a letter, stating it isn't a covered benefit. They are the ones that instead of just not responding (which would allow the PTA process to proceed) send a letter saying they cannot make a decision on your ability to own a firearm. They are the ones that instead of making a synopsis of your medical records, send all of your medical records. They are the ones that will use any visit to any service remotely related to mental health to send HPD a disqualifying letter.
On the potential Kaiser lawsuit: So far only 3 individuals had called him (as of 1800 last night) and no one has followed up (with the exception of scorpio's schedule appointment...). We have a unique opportunity to pursue legal action on an egregious violation of "our" civil rights, a travesty that has been vociferously argued and denounced here on this forum by those Kaiser members affected, yet the response to Mr. Holcomb's offer has been 3 inquiries and one scheduled appointment? Really? WTF?!
Post by: K30l4 on November 25, 2015, 04:19:11 PM
something new to add to the fire.What is the need to get finger printed for every gun? We already paid for the background check and finger printing. If a person is registering multiple items at the time, let's say three items, there will be finger printing three times for each item? I believe HPD still uses the NICS system. Does that mean we pay a fee for each time we are printed? This is absurd
friend of mine just went today.
now hpd is making everyone do fingerprints each time you get another gun.
and only 1 person in the firearms division at a time, with an officer outside the door guarding.
so each person takes 15-20 minutes, minimum. if you got multi guns, be prepared to wait and wait!
making the process much, much longer to complete.
so it's getting worse for us 2A people. >:(
Post by: j10nke on November 25, 2015, 04:25:33 PM
Post by: HiCarry on November 25, 2015, 04:30:57 PM
i already put myself out there to fight for our right. Not only on a fucking state level but a national one.
All at the same time while being fucking stabbed in the back by cowardly fucks that do nothing but bitch and whine and post news articles and meme's on this forum.
I have no idea how you "put yourself out there to fight for our right[sic]..." nor how you were "...stabbed in the back..." by those on this forum? Care to elaborate?
Post by: stangzilla on November 25, 2015, 04:31:44 PM
What is the need to get finger printed for every gun? We already paid for the background check and finger printing. If a person is registering multiple items at the time, let's say three items, there will be finger printing three times for each item? I believe HPD still uses the NICS system. Does that mean we pay a fee for each time we are printed? This is absurd
i think its for every time you go HPD, not for every gun.
i'll be there friday, so i'll see whats up.
Post by: GZire on November 25, 2015, 05:20:02 PM
I talked to HPD Firearms division.
I don't know how accurate it is but they said if you've never been red flagged the letter just needs to say you've never been treated for substance or alcohol abuse and have never been treated for a mental/psychiatric disorder.
Still a pain in the ass and out of pocket expenses though.
The verbatim letter is for if you were flagged or they can't write the above due to something in your past medical records.
Again, this is just info from one officer but someone should try it.
Bullshit.
As stated earlier I have never had any mental issues and have 0 family history. The officer at the window specifically told me that I hadn't been red flagged then I was handed that letter that I posted.
I got some other info. As this is an open forum I will post in the other forum.
Post by: HiCarry on November 25, 2015, 05:23:57 PM
GZire,
Bullshit.
As stated earlier I have never had any mental issues and have 0 family history. The officer at the window specifically told me that I hadn't been red flagged then I was handed that letter that I posted.
I got some other info. As this is an open forum I will post in the other forum.
Please PM me about your additional info...I'd like to pass it along, with your permission of course, to Mr. Holcomb.
Post by: Inspector on November 25, 2015, 05:41:22 PM
My appointment is Friday 12/11 I'm all in on this. Come join the party. It's free and the more the better. My issue is not with Kaiser or Straub. My issue is with HPD and the verbiage.I am going down on Friday to pick up a permit to acquire. I will bring my long gun permit down to renew it since it expires next month. I will get the forms and BS and I will call the lawyer and set something up with him.
Post by: Gordyf on November 25, 2015, 05:47:41 PM
While I was at HPD yesterday, there was a gentleman inquiring about the issue of change in required paperwork. The most interesting comment made by the officer ( wasn't a sgt) was that this new requirement was happening only here in Honolulu. Why only Honolulu? That's jam up.
Shame on us for criticizing how they deal with surplus pistols??
S'pose??
Part 134-2(c) does say that the procedure shall be uniform throughout the State, and drafted by the AG
Aloha
Post by: KLaroche31D on November 25, 2015, 07:41:41 PM
For the people that are concerned, if you applied prior to yesterday, the new changes do not affect you.I was there yesterday (11/24) to renew my permit to acquire. Got asked the normal, "do you have Kaiser insurance?" I don't and just filled out the usual 4 forms and was done. Same as the last 4 years.
Post by: Bota-CS1 on November 25, 2015, 08:00:59 PM
While I was at HPD yesterday, there was a gentleman inquiring about the issue of change in required paperwork. The most interesting comment made by the officer ( wasn't a sgt) was that this new requirement was happening only here in Honolulu. Why only Honolulu? That's jam up.
Each County is responsible for their own registration process and forms.
Post by: ren on November 25, 2015, 08:05:05 PM
Post by: K30l4 on November 25, 2015, 08:18:30 PM
what if you were a Syrian refugee...There is no registration needed in that case.
Post by: scorpio ps on November 25, 2015, 08:46:22 PM
I spoke to Mr. Holcomb last night about this new requirement and about the potential Kaiser lawsuit. First, I need some clarification so I can pass it on to Mr. Holmcomb. Is this new requirement just for Kaiser and Straub patients (it sounds as if it is...)? And, is this new requirement for all new permits or only for those that have been previously "red flagged?"
If you go to an "outside" doctor for an evaluation after a denial by Kaiser, how does that physician meet the requirement of sending in a letter on Kaiser letterhead?
Your issue should be with Kaiser and HPD. Kaiser is the instigator of this problem. They are the ones that won't cooperate with providing you a letter, stating it isn't a covered benefit. They are the ones that instead of just not responding (which would allow the PTA process to proceed) send a letter saying they cannot make a decision on your ability to own a firearm. They are the ones that instead of making a synopsis of your medical records, send all of your medical records. They are the ones that will use any visit to any service remotely related to mental health to send HPD a disqualifying letter.
On the potential Kaiser lawsuit: So far only 3 individuals had called him (as of 1800 last night) and no one has followed up (with the exception of scorpio's schedule appointment...). We have a unique opportunity to pursue legal action on an egregious violation of "our" civil rights, a travesty that has been vociferously argued and denounced here on this forum by those Kaiser members affected, yet the response to Mr. Holcomb's offer has been 3 inquiries and one scheduled appointment? Really? WTF?!
Just to clarify I have no issue with Kaiser or Straub. My issue is with HPD. My appointment is to see how we can change the unreasnable requirement that singles out a group of people only. Wether you agree or not, look what happened on top of Mauna Kea. They were singled out. Folks this is not the time to bicker amongst each other. Lets stay together, stir things up call your representatives, senators, the mayor, city council member Carol Fukunaga, Gost Busters if you have to. The main thing is you do something..... Lets have some fun
Post by: scorpio ps on November 25, 2015, 08:54:41 PM
I'm sure you could tell by my calculations that I'm a mathematical genius. Watching CSI on TV has qualified me to write a thesis on the rate of finger print wear while waiting in line at the HPD firearms section with or without spanking your monkey. Gals and guys All this silliness aside, If you are affected or will be affected or just want to have some basic rights join me on this ride, it's free. At least hear what the attorney says. Remember if you go to any doctor that is associated Kaiser or HPH the four hospitals that include Straub and all of their clinics, you are being singled out and discriminated against by HPD. Pure and simple.
Again, I have nothing against Kaiser or Straub. They are helping you in the acquire process wether they reply with the entire medical record (which you sign a release for) or, not reply at all. No reply does not constitute denial. Criminal, mental and drug related issues can net you a denial.
Post by: HermitRock on November 25, 2015, 09:06:13 PM
if you bought a longgun you would already have your permit to acquire (for this year) and it would not affect you, yet... handgun, You would have to leave it with the FFL until it is straight, and/or encourage the FFL's to get involved with this. They stand to lose big money on this issue.
Do some of the local businesses allow that here? Allow a customer to purchase a gun and then leave it with them till your PTA is secured?
My husband has never had any kind of issues that would get him flagged and his insurance is different so I wouldn't expect any issues for him, but even with that he'd only be able to get it after Dec 13th.
... cause if so... I'm dragging him out on Friday to go shopping. lol
Post by: mauidog on November 25, 2015, 09:15:56 PM
Do some of the local businesses allow that here? Allow a customer to purchase a gun and then leave it with them till your PTA is secured?
My husband has never had any kind of issues that would get him flagged and his insurance is different so I wouldn't expect any issues for him, but even with that he'd only be able to get it after Dec 13th.
... cause if so... I'm dragging him out on Friday to go shopping. lol
If you buy a gun and need to take the safety class, apply for the permit, then wait for the shop to reopen after the holidays, you could be waiting 2 months or more to actually take the pistol home. That's exactly what happened to me.
If you have justification for asking them to hold onto it, the shops usually have no problem accommodating your needs. I've been told by one gun shop owner, they held a pistol over 2 years once for a soldier who deployed. He bought the gun, received orders, didn't have time for the paperwork and permit, and each time home could not wait the 2 weeks. So it sat in storage with his name on it until he rotated back home.
i can't speak for all the stores, but the few I shop at would be happy to take your money and keep the gun for you as long as it takes to become legal!
Post by: HermitRock on November 25, 2015, 09:31:31 PM
If you buy a gun and need to take the safety class, apply for the permit, then wait for the shop to reopen after the holidays, you could be waiting 2 months or more to actually take the pistol home. That's exactly what happened to me.
If you have justification for asking them to hold onto it, the shops usually have no problem accommodating your needs. I've been told by one gun shop owner, they held a pistol over 2 years once for a soldier who deployed. He bought the gun, received orders, didn't have time for the paperwork and permit, and each time home could not wait the 2 weeks. So it sat in storage with his name on it until he rotated back home.
i can't speak for all the stores, but the few I shop at would be happy to take your money and keep the gun for you as long as it takes to become legal!
My husband has training but his paperwork to show proof is still tied with his old boat, which is on deployment right now. Instead of waiting for it to come back we figure him taking the safety class on the 13th would be quicker.
No harm heading out to look and asking if we find a good deal I guess. The worst they can do is tell us no. :)
Now I just have to find a way to psych myself up enough to go out in that craziness on Friday. I swear, Black Friday enthusiasts are like 28 Days Later zombies. Wish me luck. I may need armor. lol
Post by: Colt808 on November 25, 2015, 09:36:54 PM
<<<Tip: Use the quote feature...it is in top right of every post.>>>I don't make assumptions as to what a police officer is thinking. Their opinion, attitude, reaction or level of perceived irritation has no special weight (to me) in the matter nor do I automatically jump to it being a conspiracy.
The police are trying to do their job. But don't think for one moment that they want nothing better than to be the only ones with the gun. They were very irritated when I started to respectfully question the implication of the letter and who was the author. Six officers came to the window. I turned on the recorder and at first they resisted talking to me. I spoke with the Sgt, who was very nice and just truing to do his job. Not sure what you mean by the "source of the problem". The letter from your doctor has to use the statement at the top.of the page. It is not a template or outline. That statement implies that you've had mental and drug dependency issues in the past. That statement doesn't apply to me. So far I have sent emails to the mayor, chief of police and my representatives.
As this topic is concerned, the "source of the problem" that I am referring to is Kaiser, Straub, and the doctors in their network...it is a known issue and is clearly pointed out in the OP. That paper is an outline for those who may need clarification of what is required for medical clearance due to the problem providers/doctors. I've heard it explained verbally over the years to people who were told "We can not process your permit..." All HPD has done is put it on paper for those with Kaiser or Straub. For everyone else it's just the standard 4 forms.
I'm not debating this issue...I have HMSA/Tricare. My doctors have always read the HPD-89 form to be asking "Is there anything that would disqualify". Since the answer is no, the form is shredded and no response is necessary.
Post by: Colt808 on November 25, 2015, 09:45:54 PM
I talked to HPD Firearms division.Anyone who has spent a lot of time sitting in the room has heard the exact words on the paper being said to someone with Kaiser.
I don't know how accurate it is but they said if you've never been red flagged the letter just needs to say you've never been treated for substance or alcohol abuse and have never been treated for a mental/psychiatric disorder.
Still a pain in the ass and out of pocket expenses though.
The verbatim letter is for if you were flagged or they can't write the above due to something in your past medical records.
Again, this is just info from one officer but someone should try it.
Post by: Q on November 25, 2015, 09:56:42 PM
Anyone who has spent a lot of time sitting in the room has heard the exact words on the paper being said to someone with Kaiser.
The problem with HPD Firearms is that they just make shit up as they go along.
One day you need the letter, next day you don't. Then 2 weeks from then, you will have to fill out 10 more forms and jump through 25 other different hoops.
There is no organization or consistency with their own policies, and it's obvious they have some ulterior motive with what they are doing.
The real question is what are we going to do about it?
Post by: Colt808 on November 25, 2015, 11:16:23 PM
The problem with HPD Firearms is that they just make shit up as they go along.I've been doing this for a really long time and have yet to experience the "problem" of something made up or an "ulterior motive". Maybe I'm just lucky.
One day you need the letter, next day you don't. Then 2 weeks from then, you will have to fill out 10 more forms and jump through 25 other different hoops.
There is no organization or consistency with their own policies, and it's obvious they have some ulterior motive with what they are doing.
The real question is what are we going to do about it?
And what are "we" going to do about it? Well, IF I were a Kaiser/Straub client and having a problem with getting a permit...I'd probably be documenting the issue and taking it HERE (https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=20866.0), instead of ranting or "stirring the pot". And none of this is saying I'm OK with your perceived problems, just that until it applies to me (or everyone), I'm not part of the collective to be represented in the action required and there is nothing I can do.
Post by: Q on November 25, 2015, 11:43:00 PM
I've been doing this for a really long time and have yet to experience the "problem" of something made up or an "ulterior motive". Maybe I'm just lucky.
Explain to me, then, how I got instructions on how to write the letter, verbatim, from HPD Firearms administration, then when I come in to file my paperwork, get presented with a template of how the letter should be written, all within the span of a week? I might also add that my letter included everything needed in the template with regards to wording and compliance with 134-7, yet wasn't acceptable because it wasn't worded EXACTLY like their template.
Then explain why something that was only applicable to people needing verification from their doctor, now being applied to all applicants.
You can then finish up as to why, if true, people will need to be fingerprinted every time they go to the Firearms Section. Last I checked, if you are the same person that went through the initial process, it's very unlikely your fingerprints changed.
No ulterior motive vs making it harder for people to purchase firearms....which one makes more sense with everything happening?
Post by: causa mortis on November 26, 2015, 12:03:10 AM
Post by: Dolomite on November 26, 2015, 12:09:47 AM
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 26, 2015, 01:42:42 AM
Why would you automatically assume that they said something i disagreed with?
We have another winner here.
Because a logical guess would be that they would have no reason to delete something they agreed with.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 26, 2015, 01:45:22 AM
So, another member PM'd me the name of a doctor that will write this letter for me. I'm planning to see him on Friday. My only concern is if he fills it out the way HPD is asking it to be filled, then isn't the wording "no longer affected..." imply that I did, indeed, have some mental or substance abuse issues in the past? (I've never been crazy nor a druggie.) Isn't it possible that this letter could come back to haunt me later as some type of retroactive proof I'm unstable, and then be used as way to screw me over even more?
I kind of doubt it. Who else is going to have access to the letter other than your doctor and the police department? And if the police department did find an issue later and used the "no longer affected" wording against you they would still have to prove you were affected in the first place which they would fail to if there are no records.
I agree the wording is bad but I don't think there would be any reprocussions.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 26, 2015, 01:48:29 AM
This is most likely the result of Kaiser taking it in the shorts for certifying Uesugi years ago.
Yeah, it is from Kaiser, not some new policy by HPD.
Post by: Q on November 26, 2015, 02:46:12 AM
So, another member PM'd me the name of a doctor that will write this letter for me. I'm planning to see him on Friday. My only concern is if he fills it out the way HPD is asking it to be filled, then isn't the wording "no longer affected..." imply that I did, indeed, have some mental or substance abuse issues in the past? (I've never been crazy nor a druggie.) Isn't it possible that this letter could come back to haunt me later as some type of retroactive proof I'm unstable, and then be used as way to screw me over even more?
Have the doctor write it as "has never been affected..."
If they deny it, ask to speak directly to Firearms section administration (the ladies).
If Admin gives you problems, ask to speak directly to the supervising lieutenant.
If lieutenant gives you problems, contact Mr. Holcomb.
There is no reason to falsely proclaim yourself to have received treatment when you never did.
Post by: Colt808 on November 26, 2015, 06:27:34 AM
Explain to me, then, how I got instructions on how to write the letter, verbatim, from HPD Firearms administration, then when I come in to file my paperwork, get presented with a template of how the letter should be written, all within the span of a week? I might also add that my letter included everything needed in the template with regards to wording and compliance with 134-7, yet wasn't acceptable because it wasn't worded EXACTLY like their template.Read the OP again:
"Starting today at HPD if you are going to do the paper work to get a permit to aquire (Rifle or Handgun), Kaiser and Straub Hospital changed their procedure."
Do you have Kaiser or Straub? If you do, then refer to what the bold and underlined part. It's not an HPD policy. Still need an explanation? Get a copy of what your medical provider supplied HPD. Your answer will more than likely be found there.
Quote
Then explain why something that was only applicable to people needing verification from their doctor, now being applied to all applicants.Do you know any of that for a fact? Are non-Kaiser/Straub clients being denied for a missing medical clearance letter? Or are you just assuming its for everyone?
You can then finish up as to why, if true, people will need to be fingerprinted every time they go to the Firearms Section. Last I checked, if you are the same person that went through the initial process, it's very unlikely your fingerprints changed.
As far as finger prints go, you're getting riled up over a heresay comment. The last time I was fingerprinted was in 1994..."back in the day" getting printed and photographed every time was a just part of the background check. So on that part, things have actually been a lot easier. But even if that has changed and its required every time? Well, it wasn't a problem then and still wouldn't be now. If they want to expend the effort to take prints every time, that's on them. I'm already there to do what I need to do. That's not apathy or blind conformity...I believe a problem is only a problem if you make it so.
All that aside, if you really need me to explain to you why you're having problems, then paperwork is the least of your worries. From your posts (not just this thread), it's pretty clear you hate HPD and seemingly Hawaii all together. That's a personal issue. Injecting that or making a big deal out of something that's unfounded is really not helpful in terms of this topic. People with Kaiser/Straub as stated in the OP have an actionable issue. Griping about having to do fingerprinting or claiming a letter is required for everyone (or whatever else conspiracy BS) diminishes what people need to pay attention to. SEVEN pages of comments and only 3 (according to HiCarry) have contacted Holcomb. Now that's something that should require explaining.
Quote
No ulterior motive vs making it harder for people to purchase firearms....which one makes more sense with everything happening?You decide which makes more sense. Is this all of this a result of Kaiser/Straub putting out a poorly worded letter/dumping medical files or because someone in Firearms Division got a wild hair (to make things harder)? Don't bother answering if you can not do it rationally or want to base a response on unfounded claims.
Post by: scorpio ps on November 26, 2015, 08:26:28 AM
(b) The permit application form shall include the applicant's name, address, sex, height, weight, date of birth, place of birth, country of citizenship, social security number, alien or admission number, and information regarding the applicant's mental health history and shall require the fingerprinting and photographing of the applicant by the police department of the county of registration; provided that where fingerprints and photograph are already on file with the department, these may be waived.
Please look at the last sentence. Finger prints may be waived if already on file. "these may be waived" so don't get bent out of shape if they finger print you again. They have the right to by law.
(c) An applicant for a permit shall sign a waiver at the time of application, allowing the chief of police of the county issuing the permit access to any records that have a bearing on the mental health of the applicant. The permit application form and the waiver form shall be prescribed by the attorney general and shall be uniform throughout the State.
That is why you signed the release, now its up to HPD to get the information they need. What did they ask for " access to any records that have a bearing on the mental health of the applicant". The officers don't want to be looking in your whole medical record, thats what I was told. But wait a minute, you asked for any medical records. Now that you got them, you don't know or want to do anything with them.
(e) The permit application form shall be signed by the applicant and by the issuing authority. One copy of the permit shall be retained by the issuing authority as a permanent official record. Except for sales to dealers licensed under section 134-31, or dealers licensed by the United States Department of Justice, or law enforcement officers, or where a license is granted under section 134-9, or where any firearm is registered pursuant to section 134-3(a), no permit shall be issued to an applicant earlier than fourteen calendar days after the date of the application; provided that a permit shall be issued or the application denied before the twentieth day from the date of application.
They have a minimum of 14 days and maximum of 20 days, that's 10 -15 working days to issue you a permit, unless they find evidence that prevent you by law from owning. Not getting a responce from your doctors office or getting the entire medical record does not constitute or prevent you from getting a permit. Other factors do.
This folks is the law. Everything else is conjecture.
Post by: Dumbgun on November 26, 2015, 11:53:37 AM
***** * *******
From:
JONATHAN H SHUN MD, MD
Received:
11/25/2015 8:04 PM HST
Hello Mr. *******,
Kaiser provided me a printout of the firearms policy I must follow. I believe one of the Medical Assistant plans to provide you a copy as well.
I believe you may write to 'Member Services' regarding your request to appeal Kaiser's (firearms) policy. However, as this is the stance of the Kaiser organization, I suspect that the policy cannot be reversed.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Shun MD
Post by: stangzilla on November 26, 2015, 11:59:23 AM
And they will not provide a service
They should pay for the visit to the outside doctor.
Post by: Gordyf on November 26, 2015, 02:08:03 PM
Since that is kaiser 's policy
And they will not provide a service
They should pay for the visit to the outside doctor.
I may be missing something, but it sounds to me like HPD has not been able to get what they want/need from Kaiser and Straub because of "policy", so they put the onus on us, the paying customer, to squeeze.
Now I don't agree with HPD on much with regard to firearms laws, but they did not make them, only have to follow them. If they are required by law to get this info from your medics and if the medics won't pony up what can they do?
Seems like the issue is with our providers, and only we can force that issue. Vote with our feet and find another provider or get them to change "policy" Alternatively change the law so the info is not required. Throw all the bums out and start fresh. (fat chance). My guess is that working with Kaiser/Straub is the answer, through negotiation, or litigation. We need more than 3 folks to call Wolfwood, and All Kaiser customers need to call customer service. Burn up the switch boards.
This will work itself out, but will take unity on our part, and sticking to the facts only, not outrage an innuendo.
There are too many people involved for it not to settle. Kaiser Medical represents almost half of the population, thus probably half of the firearm community.
What we have here is a Kaiser issue, not an HPD thing. HPD is however taking the opportunity to thumb their noses at us. Nanny Nanny Boobers! which only stirs the pot. Got us all riled up and not moving rationally ahead laughing all the way.
Divide and conquer... Works every time.
Thoughts? :grrr:
Gordy
Afterthought, Kaiser used to have a policy... if a form needed to be filled out , it cost $75. The cost of a normal industrial/DOT physical.
Post by: mauidog on November 26, 2015, 02:20:03 PM
I may be missing something, but it sounds to me like HPD has not been able to get what they want/need from Kaiser and Straub because of "policy", so they put the onus on us, the paying customer, to squeeze.
Now I don't agree with HPD on much with regard to firearms laws, but they did not make them, only have to follow them. If they are required by law to get this info from your medics and if the medics won't pony up what can they do?
Seems like the issue is with our providers, and only we can force that issue. Vote with our feet and find another provider or get them to change "policy" Alternatively change the law so the info is not required. Throw all the bums out and start fresh. (fat chance). My guess is that working with Kaiser/Straub is the answer, through negotiation, or litigation. We need more than 3 folks to call Wolfwood, and All Kaiser customers need to call customer service. Burn up the switch boards.
This will work itself out, but will take unity on our part, and sticking to the facts only, not outrage an innuendo.
There are too many people involved for it not to settle. Kaiser Medical represents almost half of the population, thus probably half of the firearm community.
What we have here is a Kaiser issue, not an HPD thing. HPD is however taking the opportunity to thumb their noses at us. Nanny Nanny Boobers! which only stirs the pot. Got us all riled up and not moving rationally ahead laughing all the way.
Divide and conquer... Works every time.
Thoughts? :grrr:
Gordy
Afterthought, Kaiser used to have a policy... if a form needed to be filled out , it cost $75. The cost of a normal industrial/DOT physical.
The problem as I see it is, HPD is turning this into a paper chase versus a background check. To require a letter from your current PCP is reasonable. But, to then say, if your PCP doesn't want to do the letter you should go to an outsider to get the letter makes no sense. A doctor I have never met, been treated by, or diagnosed by is going to write me a letter? What does that accomplish other than check a box off for HPD's background check?
It's stupid and a waste of time and money. They might as well not require any medical info from Kaiser or Straub patients. No difference between NO REPLY and QUALIFIED BY OUTSIDE DOCTOR LETTER, IMHO.
Post by: Gordyf on November 26, 2015, 02:56:48 PM
The problem as I see it is, HPD is turning this into a paper chase versus a background check.
It has always been a paper chase. They are toying with us. We want something and they have control. The playground bully.
You know all the papers you fill out every time you go in? I will not buy that in this day and age, they can't just ask for you DOB, Social and name, ask you if anything has changed, and push Enter.
Should take a couple of minutes and you're out the door. How long did the NICS check take last time you bought a gun? No more than 5 minutes I suspect
This latest is just more of the same. We need to present a united front.
They have divided and we have been conquered. We need to be smarter than them.
That having been said, it will be interesting when somebody goes in to register a C&R they have just brought in, or a firearm purchased in another jurisdiction.
He or she will not be applying for a permit, pistol or long gun, but only asking to register a legally acquired piece brought in from out of State.
The PTA is not required. :grrr: some more.
Gordy
Post by: ren on November 26, 2015, 03:26:26 PM
Post by: Pit808 on November 26, 2015, 03:34:16 PM
Post by: Q on November 26, 2015, 05:12:43 PM
Read the OP again:
"Starting today at HPD if you are going to do the paper work to get a permit to aquire (Rifle or Handgun), Kaiser and Straub Hospital changed their procedure."
Do you have Kaiser or Straub? If you do, then refer to what the bold and underlined part. It's not an HPD policy. Still need an explanation? Get a copy of what your medical provider supplied HPD. Your answer will more than likely be found there.
Do you know any of that for a fact? Are non-Kaiser/Straub clients being denied for a missing medical clearance letter? Or are you just assuming its for everyone?
As far as finger prints go, you're getting riled up over a heresay comment. The last time I was fingerprinted was in 1994..."back in the day" getting printed and photographed every time was a just part of the background check. So on that part, things have actually been a lot easier. But even if that has changed and its required every time? Well, it wasn't a problem then and still wouldn't be now. If they want to expend the effort to take prints every time, that's on them. I'm already there to do what I need to do. That's not apathy or blind conformity...I believe a problem is only a problem if you make it so.
All that aside, if you really need me to explain to you why you're having problems, then paperwork is the least of your worries. From your posts (not just this thread), it's pretty clear you hate HPD and seemingly Hawaii all together. That's a personal issue. Injecting that or making a big deal out of something that's unfounded is really not helpful in terms of this topic. People with Kaiser/Straub as stated in the OP have an actionable issue. Griping about having to do fingerprinting or claiming a letter is required for everyone (or whatever else conspiracy BS) diminishes what people need to pay attention to. SEVEN pages of comments and only 3 (according to HiCarry) have contacted Holcomb. Now that's something that should require explaining.
You decide which makes more sense. Is this all of this a result of Kaiser/Straub putting out a poorly worded letter/dumping medical files or because someone in Firearms Division got a wild hair (to make things harder)? Don't bother answering if you can not do it rationally or want to base a response on unfounded claims.
All I got is your rant about why you don't have a problem with it; still didn't answer my questions.
(try keep it civil)
Post by: scorpio ps on November 26, 2015, 07:53:30 PM
Wow.... There's no love here. Not sure what beef there might be here but fellas, lets not forget what we are in a discussion about. This is something that will affect you. Trust me if not today next month or next year, but it will affect you.
Post by: Gordyf on November 26, 2015, 08:38:37 PM
(edit)
Wow.... There's no love here. Not sure what beef there might be here but fellas, lets not forget what we are in a discussion about. This is something that will affect you. Trust me if not today next month or next year, but it will affect you.
I say again, they have divided and we are conquered.
We gotta get it together and fight them, not each other
Get a grip guys! :'(
Gordy
Post by: scorpio ps on November 26, 2015, 08:59:55 PM
I may be missing something, but it sounds to me like HPD has not been able to get what they want/need from Kaiser and Straub because of "policy", so they put the onus on us, the paying customer, to squeeze.
Now I don't agree with HPD on much with regard to firearms laws, but they did not make them, only have to follow them. If they are required by law to get this info from your medics and if the medics won't pony up what can they do?
Seems like the issue is with our providers, and only we can force that issue. Vote with our feet and find another provider or get them to change "policy" Alternatively change the law so the info is not required. Throw all the bums out and start fresh. (fat chance). My guess is that working with Kaiser/Straub is the answer, through negotiation, or litigation. We need more than 3 folks to call Wolfwood, and All Kaiser customers need to call customer service. Burn up the switch boards.
This will work itself out, but will take unity on our part, and sticking to the facts only, not outrage an innuendo.
There are too many people involved for it not to settle. Kaiser Medical represents almost half of the population, thus probably half of the firearm community.
What we have here is a Kaiser issue, not an HPD thing. HPD is however taking the opportunity to thumb their noses at us. Nanny Nanny Boobers! which only stirs the pot. Got us all riled up and not moving rationally ahead laughing all the way.
Divide and conquer... Works every time.
Thoughts? :grrr:
Gordy
Afterthought, Kaiser used to have a policy... if a form needed to be filled out , it cost $75. The cost of a normal industrial/DOT physical.
Gordyf,
I am glad that you are on this forum and engaged in the conversation. Your opinion is of value as everyone else's is. Since you asked, I have some thoughts that i would like to share with everyone and hopefully clarify some things for you. I have spent a great deal of time on this ever since I was denied on Tuesday to even start the application process because I am a Kaiser member and handed "the letter". I won't go into the implication of the verbiage HPD wants your doctor to use. If you read it several times you will be disturbed by what it implies.
1. Kaiser policy is what Kaiser says it is for a reason. They do not like to or have to release protected information (mental, drug dependency etc treatments). HPD can't force them to. Only the courts can compel them to.
2. The law is written so that HPD has something to follow. The law is not written so that Kaiser, Straub, Queen's or even Dr Gordyf to follow and comply with. If there's no response to HPD's request from the "medics" they can't deny on the" no response" basis alone.
3. Kaiser represents 252,000 members. State of Hawaii as of 2014 has 1.42 million residents. Wow have things changed since 1973 when I came here as a young soldier. I am starting to date myself.
4. Believe it or not Kaiser is trying to protect you by not giving out protected information until they are compelled by the courts. I like that.
5. There are many services that are not covered by insurance wether it's Kaiser, HMSA, HDS and the rest. Kind of like when airlines gave you a blanket and a pillow. Not anymore. Although I wished they covered more, they just don't. As an example plastic surgery, lasik eye surgery, dental implants. I can go on and on. The list is long but the one that bothers me the most. They won't cover my Viagra, Cialis and Lavitra. :( ;) I hope you understand that things are not always black and white, lots of gray areas and much misinformation. As long as we understand where these gray areas are, what's real and what's smoke and mirrors we can channel our energies in that direction.
Gordif,
I know where the problem is. It's up to you to decide where you think the problem is. My only hope is that I have given all enough information to make an informed decision. If any one wants to know more, PM me.
Post by: scorpio ps on November 26, 2015, 09:04:16 PM
I say again, they have divided and we are conquered.
We gotta get it together and fight them, not each other
Get a grip guys! :'(
Gordy
Gordyf,
Sounds to me like a bad date. At the beach? Really..... why don't those two guys get a hotel room. :shaka:
Post by: scorpio ps on November 26, 2015, 10:53:20 PM
https://www.santarosa.edu/hr/PDFs/Kaiser%20Permanente%20Mental%20Health%20Care%20Benefits.pdf
Post by: Inspector on November 27, 2015, 09:06:59 AM
Post by: stangzilla on November 27, 2015, 10:56:02 AM
Now if you are applying for a permit, long or handgun, you have to take a picture and a thumb print
Also, only 2-3 people in the room at a time, door is closed
Even if people in the room are just filling out paperwork, only 2-3 people in the room
You must wait till they complete that paperwork and leave that room before you can enter
Reasons for these changes, idk.
But one thing is for sure is it takes much longer this way.
Post by: Drakiir84 on November 27, 2015, 11:55:39 AM
I went this morning
Now if you are applying for a permit, long or handgun, you have to take a picture and a thumb print
Also, only 2-3 people in the room at a time, door is closed
Even if people in the room are just filling out paperwork, only 2-3 people in the room
You must wait till they complete that paperwork and leave that room before you can enter
Reasons for these changes, idk.
But one thing is for sure is it takes much longer this way.
Yup, looked pretty terrible, glad I was only picking up a permit. Can't stand these fucking bureaucrats........
Post by: Inspector on November 27, 2015, 12:33:53 PM
On a slightly brighter note I spoke with the bald officer and he said his Major was scheduled to have a meeting with Kaiser and Straub to try and clear up this mess. He couldn't say when this was going to occur. But he said soon. That is all he would say about it.
Post by: Inspector on November 27, 2015, 12:38:13 PM
Post by: aieahound on November 27, 2015, 03:17:13 PM
Sounds like there was a change in the chain command of the firearms division.
Someone with a stick up their ass.
I don't blame the bruddahs at the window though.
You know they're not making this crap up.
Maybe Knudsen missed the last HK board meeting because he got on the police commission. :wacko:
Post by: FBI on November 27, 2015, 04:07:25 PM
Thankfully I lost all my guns in a boating accident
and don't need anymore. But I like reading about
you guys trying to obey UN-constitutional laws. :shaka:
Post by: Gordyf on November 27, 2015, 05:35:52 PM
Gordyf,
I am glad that you are on this forum and engaged in the conversation. Your opinion is of value as everyone else's is. Since you asked, I have some thoughts that i would like to share with everyone and hopefully clarify some things for you. I have spent a great deal of time on this ever since I was denied on Tuesday to even start the application process because I am a Kaiser member and handed "the letter". I won't go into the implication of the verbiage HPD wants your doctor to use. If you read it several times you will be disturbed by what it implies.
1. Kaiser policy is what Kaiser says it is for a reason. They do not like to or have to release protected information (mental, drug dependency etc treatments). HPD can't force them to. Only the courts can compel them to.
2. The law is written so that HPD has something to follow. The law is not written so that Kaiser, Straub, Queen's or even Dr Gordyf to follow and comply with. If there's no response to HPD's request from the "medics" they can't deny on the" no response" basis alone.
3. Kaiser represents 252,000 members. State of Hawaii as of 2014 has 1.42 million residents. Wow have things changed since 1973 when I came here as a young soldier. I am starting to date myself.
4. Believe it or not Kaiser is trying to protect you by not giving out protected information until they are compelled by the courts. I like that.
5. There are many services that are not covered by insurance wether it's Kaiser, HMSA, HDS and the rest. Kind of like when airlines gave you a blanket and a pillow. Not anymore. Although I wished they covered more, they just don't. As an example plastic surgery, lasik eye surgery, dental implants. I can go on and on. The list is long but the one that bothers me the most. They won't cover my Viagra, Cialis and Lavitra. :( ;) I hope you understand that things are not always black and white, lots of gray areas and much misinformation. As long as we understand where these gray areas are, what's real and what's smoke and mirrors we can channel our energies in that direction.
Gordif,
I know where the problem is. It's up to you to decide where you think the problem is. My only hope is that I have given all enough information to make an informed decision. If any one wants to know more, PM me.
scorpio:
You and I are on the same page even if it sounds different.
1) I agree that Kaiser or anyone should not have to cough up a customer's medical records. It is flat not their place especially with all the Federal privacy laws. HPD and the State are in violation even asking.
2) I agree that a "no response" should be a a GO for issuance. That they don't answer should not preclude the issuance of my permit
3) For what it is worth, if you were a young soldier here in '73, then we are contemporaries and probably need to get together for a beer.
4) I agree that Kaiser is trying to protect us, and see above remain within the bounds of privacy acts they are bound by
5) I have been with Kaiser most of my adult life and am familiar with what they cover. Filling out a form for the guv'mt is not one of them unless you pony up. my example a CG or DOT license physical.
All that said, how do we unf**k the situation at hand in the short term so that we may get back to our business of acquiring and collecting guns?
Inspector said that the ballahead guy behind the window claims that his superior is meeting with the providers. That is a start. He is a great guy by the way. Has helped me a lot!
That means the flap has reached an actionable level. It is an inconvenience for HPD and bringing attention down on their process. Might make somebody look silly. Can't have that.
I am out of the firearm purchasing business until this all blows over, so I am on board to do whatever helps.
Where are HRA and the NRA when we need them? What is their take? Oh you don't belong? Get a grip and join!
If you don't belong to a n advocacy group, now is the time to get involved and it is time for the advocacy groups to speak up.
Numbers!!! it is all about numbers. There are too many of us affected by this.
One post postulated that there may be a new guy in charge? That makes sense, we just need to get him trained up, like all new officers.
We can do this! but we have to do it together.
Aloha
Gordy
Post by: whynow? on November 27, 2015, 09:09:16 PM
I went this morningSo do you open the door to verify 2-3 people then close the door and wait for one guy to leave or is there another procedure? Also do you have to take a photo and fingerprint even though you already had previous permits? If they take these in the main room before the firearms section, yeah this would take longer just to apply for a permit. Efficiency is the enemy of bureaucracy. Sheesh.
Now if you are applying for a permit, long or handgun, you have to take a picture and a thumb print
Also, only 2-3 people in the room at a time, door is closed
Even if people in the room are just filling out paperwork, only 2-3 people in the room
You must wait till they complete that paperwork and leave that room before you can enter
Reasons for these changes, idk.
But one thing is for sure is it takes much longer this way.
Post by: j10nke on November 28, 2015, 12:05:58 AM
Post by: j10nke on November 28, 2015, 12:10:00 AM
Post by: mauidog on November 28, 2015, 12:38:30 AM
If I am "reading" this correctly 😂
And about joining an organization... I wouldn't recommend anyone join the nra. I made the mistake once and now they won't stop calling me spewing political garbage read straight from a paper in monotone.
The NRA is one organization I recommend. There are others, but why not support the biggest, longest lived, and most successful gun rights organization in the country?
As discussed in other threads, if you are being slammed with solicitations, there are contact methods to ask your name/address/number be removed from their call and mailing lists.
To not join over something that's just an annoyance is not logical when you consider the important job they do for all gun owners.
In addition to lobbying Congress and supporting pro-2A candidates, the NRA has done more for safety and training than any other civilian organization in the world.
The NRA is obviously doing a great job, or Obama and the rest of the Liberal anti-gun crowd wouldn't complain about them so often or so loudly!!
Who WOULDN'T want to be associated with a national group like this?
Post by: causa mortis on November 28, 2015, 11:21:01 AM
The NRA is one organization I recommend. There are others, but why not support the biggest, longest lived, and most successful gun rights organization in the country?
As discussed in other threads, if you are being slammed with solicitations, there are contact methods to ask your name/address/number be removed from their call and mailing lists.
To not join over something that's just an annoyance is not logical when you consider the important job they do for all gun owners.
In addition to lobbying Congress and supporting pro-2A candidates, the NRA has done more for safety and training than any other civilian organization in the world.
The NRA is obviously doing a great job, or Obama and the rest of the Liberal anti-gun crowd wouldn't complain about them so often or so loudly!!
Who WOULDN'T want to be associated with a national group like this?
I like the NRA. However, does anyone know the status of Grover Norquist and the NRA? Last I checked, he voluntarily suspended himself from the board pending an investigation about his ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. I told the NRA that I would cancel my membership with them if he was allowed to remain a board member.
Post by: mauidog on November 28, 2015, 01:05:59 PM
I like the NRA. However, does anyone know the status of Grover Norquist and the NRA? Last I checked, he voluntarily suspended himself from the board pending an investigation about his ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. I told the NRA that I would cancel my membership with them if he was allowed to remain a board member.
The last thing I saw, the NRA was still investigation (from February/March 2015). There was a "recall" effort started in Aug to remove Norquist from the board. I haven't heard anything more on that, nor the investigation.
In the meantime, Norquist voluntarily suspended his participation on the Board of Directors until the investigation could be completed.
He married a Pakistani, and since then, there have been a couple of people accusing him of having ties to The Muslim Brotherhood.
Post by: Heavies on November 28, 2015, 01:44:16 PM
The last thing I saw, the NRA was still investigation (from February/March 2015). There was a "recall" effort started in Aug to remove Norquist from the board. I haven't heard anything more on that, nor the investigation.
In the meantime, Norquist voluntarily suspended his participation on the Board of Directors until the investigation could be completed.
He married a Pakistani, and since then, there have been a couple of people accusing him of having ties to The Muslim Brotherhood.
I still trust this dude more than the dude occupying the big white colored residence. Lol
Post by: scorpio ps on November 28, 2015, 06:20:59 PM
Post by: scorpio ps on November 28, 2015, 06:37:09 PM
State Representatives http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/members/legislators.aspx?chamber=H
City Council member Calor Fukunaga is the council's HPD Liaison very important that she hears from us. cafukunaga@honolulu.gov
Post by: Gordyf on November 28, 2015, 06:51:14 PM
Today Saturday, I spoke with several people at the range that were in line at HPD to get a permit to acquire or renew a long gun permit. The officer went down the line and asked people with Kaiser and Straub to step out of the line. They were handed "the letter" told that they would have leave and come back after they have their doctor comply with the wording. Everyone else can stay and continue. If this has happened to anyone else, please pm me.
Soo it is safe to assume that the other providers have caved and given them what they want?
I think that if privacy is an issue, maybe I like Kaiser. This is clearly discriminatory to a group of folks.
Smells of a new CO that has an agenda and wants to sweep clean. Perhaps on orders from above.
I voted for our mayor because of his perceived support of our community.
May I be struck dead if I make that mistake again.
The question still remains... What if you don't have a Doc?
Maybe I won't next time I am in.
And I really don't have a shrink. Never once been to one.
Gordy
Post by: causa mortis on November 28, 2015, 07:23:09 PM
Please contact your representatives and tell them what you think about this "new requirement" in a constructive way. I'm not talking about a thumb print or another picture. Nothing wrong with that as you have your picture taken when you renew your license. If you think that what's going is preventing you the law abiding citizen from purchasing a firearm, say so. If you think that you are being singled out because of your medical plan only, say so. You don't have to write a novel. Don't be a bystander. We all know what happens to bystanders.
State Representatives http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/members/legislators.aspx?chamber=H
City Council member Calor Fukunaga is the council's HPD Liaison very important that she hears from us. cafukunaga@honolulu.gov
I wrote e mails to both of them. Hopefully this gets the ball rolling.
Post by: scorpio ps on November 28, 2015, 07:44:43 PM
Do not assume your first line at all. If you have a provider that is in private practice, lets say in Kailua. The release and the yellow letter goes to him or her. Provider can respond with "no issues" or does not respond at all. Like throws away the request. If no other reasons to deny, HPD issues. If the doctor responds with "Gordy is a nut case and smokes weed all day" well now you can assume what's going to happen. There's a huge beef behind the scene between the three HPD, Kaiser and Straub. We are the collateral damage as a result of friendly fire from 801 S. Beretania St.
Don't loose faith here folks. Just look what a handful of bicyclist accomplished on Kapiolani Blvd. A classic example "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". Be patient, respectful and relentless in what we are trying to accomplish. Meet me at the range tomorrow Sunday to spread the word. Write your Representatives, Police Chief, Mayor, City Council Member http://www.honolulu.gov/council/cclhome/ccl.html . Lets have some constructive movement, bowel movement does not qualify. :shaka: :stopcock: If you have any info on the subject matter, please pm me. Don't be the silent majority.
Post by: scorpio ps on November 28, 2015, 07:47:44 PM
I have further information regarding the treatment citizens are receiving while in line at the HPD firearms section.
Today Saturday 11/28 I spoke with several people at the Koko Head shooting complex. They were in line at HPD to get a permit to acquire or renew their long gun permit. The officer went down the long line of people an asked everyone with Kaiser Plan or Straub to step out of the line. They were handed the “letter” and told that they would have to leave and come back, after their doctor complies with the wording. Everyone else can stay and continue. This happened on Wednesday 11/25. I suffered the same faith on 11/24. Labeling a specific group only. I find that discriminating. Gosh this is 2015 not Feb 1942, thats how we treated our fellow citizen Japanese American’s. That’s what the Nazi’s did in Poland and Hungry to the Jews, singled them out.
Ms Fukunaga, I need your help to stop this abnormal behavior from the same people that we intrust to protect our rights.
Best Regards,
Post by: scorpio ps on November 28, 2015, 07:50:49 PM
Post by: dogman on November 28, 2015, 09:13:39 PM
Dear Ms Fukunaga,
I have further information regarding the treatment citizens are receiving while in line at the HPD firearms section.
Today Saturday 11/28 I spoke with several people at the Koko Head shooting complex. They were in line at HPD to get a permit to acquire or renew their long gun permit. The officer went down the long line of people an asked everyone with Kaiser Plan or Straub to step out of the line. They were handed the “letter” and told that they would have to leave and come back, after their doctor complies with the wording. Everyone else can stay and continue. This happened on Wednesday 11/25. I suffered the same faith on 11/24. Labeling a specific group only. I find that discriminating. Gosh this is 2015 not Feb 1942, thats how we treated our fellow citizen Japanese American’s. That’s what the Nazi’s did in Poland and Hungry to the Jews, singled them out.
Ms Fukunaga, I need your help to stop this abnormal behavior from the same people that we intrust to protect our rights.
Best Regards,
On a slightly brighter note I spoke with the bald officer and he said his Major was scheduled to have a meeting with Kaiser and Straub to try and clear up this mess. He couldn't say when this was going to occur. But he said soon. That is all he would say about it.
I do not believe that HPD is the problem. Previous post have mentioned Kaiser sending applicant's medical records to HPD for review. From my conversation with HPD it sounds like now Straub is asking HPD to send officers to their facility to review applicant's records and determine if the applicant should or should not be approved for their permit to acquire because of mental health. HPD's reasonable response is they are not doctors and they cannot make that determination. I believe Kaiser and Straub are the problem and not HPD. I may be wrong, but that is my opinion.
I was told the same thing as Inspector's quote, that HPD will meet with Kaiser and Straub to try to come to an agreement and return things back to "normal". I sincerely believe HPD is trying to work this out so that law abiding citizens can continue to purchase firearms within the current (although ridiculous ) system.
The bald officer is Mick :)
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 28, 2015, 10:28:31 PM
I don't have Kaiser though and don't know what the contract says so I am just brainstorming for ideas.
Post by: Dumbgun on November 29, 2015, 03:32:17 AM
Post by: scorpio ps on November 29, 2015, 05:12:09 AM
I do not believe that HPD is the problem. Previous post have mentioned Kaiser sending applicant's medical records to HPD for review. From my conversation with HPD it sounds like now Straub is asking HPD to send officers to their facility to review applicant's records and determine if the applicant should or should not be approved for their permit to acquire because of mental health. HPD's reasonable response is they are not doctors and they cannot make that determination. I believe Kaiser and Straub are the problem and not HPD. I may be wrong, but that is my opinion.
I was told the same thing as Inspector's quote, that HPD will meet with Kaiser and Straub to try to come to an agreement and return things back to "normal". I sincerely believe HPD is trying to work this out so that law abiding citizens can continue to purchase firearms within the current (although ridiculous ) system.
Dogman,
If HPD doesn't want to look at your medical records at their office (Kaiser sending medical records) why would HPD want to go to Straub to look at your medical records. I don't believe any of that. I'm not saying I don't believe you. Doesn't make sense. No hospital in their right mind would allow (legally) police access to that area. They will send your records, with proper authorization but very few people have access to medical records in the hospital. I know, I work there. Furthermore, determining if you are capable of owning a firearm legally is not the doctors job. The chief of police determines that. Your doctor has three choices. Respond with yes there are issues, no there are no issues or does not respond at all. None of the responses will state that you can own a firearm. Wold you Dr Dogman want to say that I can own a firearm. Doctors give medical opinions. You being able to own a firearm is not a medical opinion. Please read 134-2.
I would be curious to know how many folks on this forum have read HRS 134-2 Chapter a, b and c is all you need to read. Please read (several) times and understand it. What amazed me at the range, how many folks did not see in the verbiage of the "letter" that they would be implicating themselves having had mental and drug dependency issues at one time but no longer do. When they finally saw what it said, they all said the same thing. No way... I will never attest to that nor would I want my doctor to either since it"s not true.
Lawyers at the range said "no way was that written by a lawyer and they recommend not agreeing to participate". Don't get twisted by what the balled officer "is saying". Unless you heard it from him, its hearsay. Even if I heard it from him I don't believe it. The reason in my three visits there this past week I heard so many different stories. I look at actions now. "Actions speak louder than words". That is the only thing we should all look at.
Post by: scorpio ps on November 29, 2015, 05:19:41 AM
Other than a lawsuit, can anyone think of a way that will make Kaiser want to comply with writing these letters? Perhaps some sort of inundation or paperwork or something that will hit them in their pocketbook. I don't know if we have enough Kaiser members, but if there were enough maybe we could tie up their phone lines or send so many letters it would cause them headache and cost money replying to everyone. Perhaps there is something in the medical contract where a member can appeal something. If Kaiser had to hear thousands of appeals it might get their attention, especially if it got to the level of needing to be heard by 3rd party to decide the issue. Cannot remember what those guys are called right now but...oh yeah, arbitration! Imagine so many separate complaints all going to arbitration.
I don't have Kaiser though and don't know what the contract says so I am just brainstorming for ideas.
eyeeatingfish,
Although I see and hear what you are saying the only thing that is constructive is a your suggestion of a lawsuit. The rest is wishful thinking and barking up the wrong tree. The hospitals are not the problem please read HRS 134-2
Post by: scorpio ps on November 29, 2015, 05:22:07 AM
Post by: scorpio ps on November 29, 2015, 05:23:23 AM
If you think that what is being perpetrated on you is unconstitutional, contact the ACLU. They love this kind of stuff. I will be at the range all day today talking to fellow firearms enthusiasts.
Post by: dogman on November 29, 2015, 06:42:31 AM
Your doctor has three choices. Respond with yes there are issues, no there are no issues or does not respond at all.The problem seems to be that Kaiser and Straub are not replying with ANY "no there are no issues".
Post by: bass monkey on November 29, 2015, 07:39:40 AM
The problem seems to be that Kaiser and Straub are not replying with ANY "no there are no issues".
Why is that suddenly a problem? We been doing the same paperwork for years. Seems like hpd is not satisfied with no response anymore.
I remember a while back the council was looking into options for firearms registration at other locations due to long lines and long waits. Perhaps now is the time to remind them about that. Would be an add benefit to us.
I also sent email to my representatives informing them I'm not happy about the changes.
I also like sometimes suggestion of contracting the news, I'll do that too
Post by: Gordyf on November 29, 2015, 07:54:21 AM
We all know that the ACLU cherry picks the Bill of Rights. They may say that they defend it all, but really only the 1st, 4th and maybe the 5th. They are selective ad nauseum.
Certainly not the 2nd. It does not fit their narrative.
My goodness!that one might allow the unwashed masses to have guns.
Bass monkey has a point. I have had Kaiser most of my working life and a PTA continuously since the early '90s.
Never a problem. Wonder what changed??
Gordy
Post by: scorpio ps on November 29, 2015, 12:43:25 PM
bass monkey, You are correct "what is different now". I have not been able to get the same answer more than once on the three different trips to HPD this past week. I don't know nor do I care. Whatever is different now, is affecting my contitutional right to purchase a firearm.
Gordy, You maybe correct in your opinion about the ACLU. Not sure if you are speaking from a personal experience or just an opinion, as I would like to know more about it. My contention with the ACLU would be that I am along with other Kaiser and Straub patients, being singled out and discriminated purely on the basis of my medical plan. Which is not grounds from being turned away.
Met many people and made good headway today at the range. Many were directly affected or would shortly be affected by the "letter". Wednesday the 9th we have the opportunity to present our case in front of some very important people. If you are interested in attending, send me a PM .
On a lighter note how many people remember the the speed detection Vans that roamed our roads and would automatically take a pic of your plates and a couple weeks later you would get a ticket in the mail. Ben Cayetano had the intestinal fortitude to cancel the contract and the vans went away.
Those vans were named the " TALIVANS" I am taking this opportunity to name "the letter" "The TALI LETTER".
Post by: macsak on November 29, 2015, 12:53:49 PM
Met many people and made good headway today at the range. Many were directly affected or would shortly be affected by the "letter". Wednesday the 9th we have the opportunity to present our case in front of some very important people. If you are interested in attending, send me a PM .
perhaps you might get more support for whatever you have planned on dec 9th by putting it on this forum rather than relying on people pming you individually
Post by: macsak on November 29, 2015, 12:55:13 PM
Gordy, You maybe correct in your opinion about the ACLU. Not sure if you are speaking from a personal experience or just an opinion, as I would like to know more about it. My contention with the ACLU would be that I am along with other Kaiser and Straub patients, being singled out and discriminated purely on the basis of my medical plan. Which is not grounds from being turned away.
do a search, there was an instance in the last few years where the ACLU helped with a case on the 2a side
i cannot remember the details, but i believe HDF or HRA was involved
Post by: Inspector on November 29, 2015, 01:18:41 PM
I called the lawyer Rick Holcomb and we will be talking the beginning of this week. I would prefer to wait and see what happens with the talks between HPD and Kaiser/Straub but I figure if nothing comes of the talks then I am that much farther ahead with Mr. Holcomb. The issue is I have not been turned down, yet. Because my last permit request was before last Monday it went through unscathed. But my long gun permit expires in February (I thought it was December) so I will get turned down at that time.
Post by: causa mortis on November 29, 2015, 01:50:58 PM
Post by: Gordyf on November 29, 2015, 03:12:53 PM
This is their dogma and my experience has been that they will not work to change the narrative despite of the latest SCOTUS decisions.
I would not expect any assistance from The ACLU.
They will obfuscate and hide, saying they they believe and all the right stuff, but don't have funding or some such.
If we get any help from them I will eat these words, promise!
Aloha
Gordy
Post by: mauidog on November 29, 2015, 03:28:05 PM
He was legally protected against telling the truth when buying a gun because the answers would have prevented him from doing so. :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:
I wouldn't put too much stock in the ACLU helping in this case unless they focus on the HIPAA privacy violations with Kaiser sending the entire medical record to HPD.
Post by: mauidog on November 29, 2015, 03:38:45 PM
Physicians Urged To Ask Patients About Gun Ownership During Office Health Histories
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/11/29/physicians-urged-ask-patients-gun-ownership-office-health-histories/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
https://youtu.be/TiZLS-frkxM
Post by: Gordyf on November 29, 2015, 03:43:30 PM
If I remember from a previous discussion, wasn't one ACLU case where a felon ineligible to own guns was protected against truthfully answering the ATF Form 4473 questionnaire because it amounted to self incrimination?
He was legally protected against telling the truth when buying a gun because the answers would have prevented him from doing so. :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:
I wouldn't put too much stock in the ACLU helping in this case unless they focus on the HIPPA privacy violations with Kaiser sending the entire medical record to HPD.
Sounds like them! but you are right, they may get involved in the privacy part.
Self incrimination.... 5th ammenment
My promise stands. I will publicly eat my words!
Gordy
Post by: macsak on November 29, 2015, 03:56:28 PM
do a search, there was an instance in the last few years where the ACLU helped with a case on the 2a side
i cannot remember the details, but i believe HDF or HRA was involved
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=14014.msg134726#msg134726
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=14062.msg134836#msg134836
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=17841.msg162929#msg162929
Post by: Gordyf on November 29, 2015, 05:01:29 PM
I have to give you that one. They helped funtimes get some paperwork.
Am still not holding my breath for help on this issue, but will take any good they can/will do.
Please prove me wrong.I have no faith.
Gordy
Post by: Scar16 on November 30, 2015, 08:50:46 AM
I know this isn't the section for this stuff, but more people will see it. Starting today at HPD if you are going to do the paper work to get a permit to aquire (Rifle or Handgun), Kaiser and Straub Hospital changed their procedure. You now have to go and see your personal Doctor have them submit a letter with the Hospital letterhead, saying your not nuts on drugs etc... They then can fax a copy, but still have to mail in the original or if your Doctor will let you, you can take it in when you go to pick up your permit. If the don't let you take the original or a copy in, and they don't fax or mail it in by the last pickup date for your permit, you will have to do the whole 2 week back ground check again.
Have fun !!
Ok I'm jumping in here because I was one of the first to go through this shit about a yr ago, and trust me I haven't bought anything since cuz the time and bullshit you gotta do now but that's exactly what they want. Last year I got flagged by Kaiser I guess when hpd was waiting for their response when I was trying to buy a gun. Hpd said I got flagged and that u needed my dr to do that same letter. Went to my dr at Kaiser and said they don't write out letters..... So I went to a psychologist got cleared and btw I had to pay to see him, had him send a fax and the original. So my question is will my letter from the psychologist suffice or do I have to get a new one every time and pay extra everytime I want to buy a gun. ?
So then I go back and talk with Kaiser, I asked to talk to the person who flagged me. I should have gotten her name, but this lady was like you seen a counselor in the past (I was grieving over a break up after 7 yrs and my grandfathers death at the same time) and in the social service work that I do, it is recommended to go get counseling ourselves so that's what I did. Anyways the lady over the phone also said "sir you bought so many guns the past year why do you need so many guns, who has that many guns" I told her what does it matter to you what the hell I buy, I said lady I buy, sell, design custom guns and collect them but she didn't give a fuck and there was no way of getting the clearance with her so I had to go to an outside provider.
Like I said it's been a yr or so since that happened and I haven't been back since but I need to go and renew my paperwork so we'll see what happens, AND..... The new MDR from desert tech is coming out real soon, I've been waiting for that bull pup for over a yr to come out.
Sorry haven't had chance to read this entire post but hopefully this shit gets resolved, it's such a hardship, extra time and money that we have to pay just cuz they flag us for no fkn reason.
So does everyone need to go through this shit now and not just Kaiser members who seen a counselor???
Post by: stangzilla on November 30, 2015, 08:57:27 AM
and you can buy as much guns within that year, then you have to get another letter
and now all kaiser and straub members have to get a letter.
and now the process at HPD firearms division takes longer due to taking thumb print and picture, and only allowing 1-2 people in the room at a time. just slows down the line.
i'm in the same boat as you, sort of, i got red flagged back in january.
Post by: macsak on November 30, 2015, 09:11:49 AM
Scar16, your letter is good for 1 year from when the doctor wrote it
and you can buy as much guns within that year, then you have to get another letter
and now all kaiser and straub members have to get a letter.
and now the process at HPD firearms division takes longer due to taking thumb print and picture, and only allowing 1-2 people in the room at a time. just slows down the line.
i'm in the same boat as you, sort of, i got red flagged back in january.
has anyone found out their justification for the photo and fingerprint every time?
that's BS
Post by: Scar16 on November 30, 2015, 09:14:11 AM
Post by: Scar16 on November 30, 2015, 09:17:31 AM
Scar16, your letter is good for 1 year from when the doctor wrote it
and you can buy as much guns within that year, then you have to get another letter
and now all kaiser and straub members have to get a letter.
and now the process at HPD firearms division takes longer due to taking thumb print and picture, and only allowing 1-2 people in the room at a time. just slows down the line.
i'm in the same boat as you, sort of, i got red flagged back in january.
So pretty much everyone at Kaiser need to get an outside doctor to write the letter because Kaiser will not provide the letter
Post by: stangzilla on November 30, 2015, 09:56:52 AM
before me on friday there was 3 people in the room, all filling out permits, they didn't have any guns to register
and yet i could not enter the room until 1 of them completed their paper work and exited the room
nobody behind the window was doing anything during this time.
its like you make a dam in a river, and only let a trickle come through.
i bet Syrians can come through our borders faster than our firearms paperwork can get processed.
do these Syrian refugees have to get a letter from a psychologist? nope.
Post by: JHanawahine on November 30, 2015, 11:07:16 AM
has anyone found out their justification for the photo and fingerprint every time?its part of the application process.but I do wonder why only now too
that's BS
Post by: HiCarry on November 30, 2015, 01:21:24 PM
Need help! Went to HPD today. I have Kaiser!Did you contact the attorney looking for Kaiser patients with regards to this issue?
Registered a long gun with permit I got in July.
Applied for handgun permit and confirmed this entire fiasco!!!!
Spent the whole day calling around to find a Doctor willing to write the letter. No luck
Post by: HiCarry on November 30, 2015, 01:26:53 PM
oh, man, guysRichard Holcomb is NOT Wolfwood.
it's on
EVERYONE with kaiser and straub call wolfwood ASAP
Post by: HiCarry on November 30, 2015, 01:30:02 PM
I haven't had a primary care physician for a few years. I've always put "N/A" for my Doctor and never had a problem obtaining pistol or renewing long gun permits. Has this changed as well?Since lying on the form submitted to HPD is a felony, you probably shouldn't be so willing to post that incriminating info in an open forum....
Post by: macsak on November 30, 2015, 01:33:27 PM
Richard Holcomb is NOT Wolfwood.
oops, sorry
my apologies
:'(
Post by: HiCarry on November 30, 2015, 01:41:48 PM
Just to clarify I have no issue with Kaiser or Straub. My issue is with HPD. My appointment is to see how we can change the unreasnable requirement that singles out a group of people only. Wether you agree or not, look what happened on top of Mauna Kea. They were singled out. Folks this is not the time to bicker amongst each other. Lets stay together, stir things up call your representatives, senators, the mayor, city council member Carol Fukunaga, Gost Busters if you have to. The main thing is you do something..... Lets have some funOnce again, you should have a problem with Kaiser as they are the ones that started this nonsense. First, instead of just not replying to HPD's inquiry during the PTA process, they decided to send a letter back saying "...we can't say whether this patient is qualified or not to own a firearm..." then they started sending in denials for anyone seen for any "mental health" issue, which by their broad brush, included grief and dietary counseling. Then, they stopped giving an "opinion" on your fitness and just started sending over your entire medical records. Yes, HPD is culpable in this whole fiasco, but it is primarily a problem with Kaiser.
But, you are right, we shouldn't "bicker" amoungst ourselves, but you should be aware of the genesis of the problem and who the significant players were/are.
Post by: HiCarry on November 30, 2015, 01:50:03 PM
Have the doctor write it as "has never been affected..."I hate to "correct" your posting, but may I suggest that you contact Mr. Holcomb REGARDLESS of what else you do? If you are a Kaiser member and have been singled out to complete additional paperwork or see another doctor, there is still a problem regardless if you end up getting your PTA or not. Jumping through additional hoops because HPD suddenly decides they can require more stuff than the law allows IS A REAL PROBLEM that needs to addressed.
If they deny it, ask to speak directly to Firearms section administration (the ladies).
If Admin gives you problems, ask to speak directly to the supervising lieutenant.
If lieutenant gives you problems, contact Mr. Holcomb.
There is no reason to falsely proclaim yourself to have received treatment when you never did.
So, if you are a Kaiser patient and have been singled out to provide additional documents in order to get your PTA, CALL MR. HOLCOMB, regardless if you got your permit or not.
Post by: Q on November 30, 2015, 02:01:51 PM
I hate to "correct" your posting, but may I suggest that you contact Mr. Holcomb REGARDLESS of what else you do? If you are a Kaiser member and have been singled out to complete additional paperwork or see another doctor, there is still a problem regardless if you end up getting your PTA or not. Jumping through additional hoops because HPD suddenly decides they can require more stuff than the law allows IS A REAL PROBLEM that needs to addressed.
So, if you are a Kaiser patient and have been singled out to provide additional documents in order to get your PTA, CALL MR. HOLCOMB, regardless if you got your permit or not.
I thought Mr. Holcomb was Wolfhound this whole time... :shake:
Do we contact his office or do you have a preferred method for contacting him?
Post by: HiCarry on November 30, 2015, 02:02:55 PM
Gordyf,
I am glad that you are on this forum and engaged in the conversation. Your opinion is of value as everyone else's is. Since you asked, I have some thoughts that i would like to share with everyone and hopefully clarify some things for you. I have spent a great deal of time on this ever since I was denied on Tuesday to even start the application process because I am a Kaiser member and handed "the letter". I won't go into the implication of the verbiage HPD wants your doctor to use. If you read it several times you will be disturbed by what it implies.
1. Kaiser policy is what Kaiser says it is for a reason. They do not like to or have to release protected information (mental, drug dependency etc treatments). HPD can't force them to. Only the courts can compel them to.
Kaiser's policy is most likely a result of antigun sentiment and a perceived liability exposure. Kaiser, and all other medical facilities MUST release PHI (protected health information) once a legitimate request, along with a properly signed release form, is received. That release can be requested for other doctors (who may need the info to treat you) or by the patient. That mandate to release the records is covered under the EMTALA/HIPPA laws. So, it has nothing to do with what Kaiser wants or likes to do. Period.
4. Believe it or not Kaiser is trying to protect you by not giving out protected information until they are compelled by the courts. I like that.
Again, they must release PHI once they receive a legitimate request. They are not trying to protect you, they are trying to protect themselves from a perceived liability. That perceived liability is that if they say you're "OK" to own a gun and you do something stupid with it, they will be on the hook for your stupid actions.
Post by: Inspector on November 30, 2015, 02:11:22 PM
Well, I went to see a doctor not affiliated with Kaiser who agreed to write the letter, but without the exact phrasing "no longer affected by..." in it. I have to renew my long gun permit on Wednesday. So, I'll see how it goes. If I'm denied, then I guess I'm calling Mr. Holcomb and signing on to any litigation.Please keep us informed as to how it goes. So far I have heard of one person that they accepted the letter written like this and one person who they rejected and said the letter had to be verbatim.
Post by: HiCarry on November 30, 2015, 02:11:41 PM
scorpio:I cannot speak to the NRA's involvement, but I can tell you that HRA has been involved in this matter since Kaiser first started getting squirrley with providing info to HPD. In the past they simply didn't respond if there were no entries in your medical record that would be of concern. HRA has had multiple meetings with HPD and the firearms division on this matter. Some of the current issues are of HPD's doing, but mostly it is a response from Kaiser's actions.
You and I are on the same page even if it sounds different.
1) I agree that Kaiser or anyone should not have to cough up a customer's medical records. It is flat not their place especially with all the Federal privacy laws. HPD and the State are in violation even asking.
2) I agree that a "no response" should be a a GO for issuance. That they don't answer should not preclude the issuance of my permit
3) For what it is worth, if you were a young soldier here in '73, then we are contemporaries and probably need to get together for a beer.
4) I agree that Kaiser is trying to protect us, and see above remain within the bounds of privacy acts they are bound by
5) I have been with Kaiser most of my adult life and am familiar with what they cover. Filling out a form for the guv'mt is not one of them unless you pony up. my example a CG or DOT license physical.
All that said, how do we unf**k the situation at hand in the short term so that we may get back to our business of acquiring and collecting guns?
Inspector said that the ballahead guy behind the window claims that his superior is meeting with the providers. That is a start. He is a great guy by the way. Has helped me a lot!
That means the flap has reached an actionable level. It is an inconvenience for HPD and bringing attention down on their process. Might make somebody look silly. Can't have that.
I am out of the firearm purchasing business until this all blows over, so I am on board to do whatever helps.
Where are HRA and the NRA when we need them? What is their take? Oh you don't belong? Get a grip and join!
If you don't belong to a n advocacy group, now is the time to get involved and it is time for the advocacy groups to speak up.
Numbers!!! it is all about numbers. There are too many of us affected by this.
One post postulated that there may be a new guy in charge? That makes sense, we just need to get him trained up, like all new officers.
We can do this! but we have to do it together.
Aloha
Gordy
HRA has been working with Mr. Holcomb for sometime discussing this matter.
Post by: HiCarry on November 30, 2015, 02:34:49 PM
If HPD doesn't want to look at your medical records at their office (Kaiser sending medical records) why would HPD want to go to Straub to look at your medical records. I don't believe any of that. I'm not saying I don't believe you. Doesn't make sense. No hospital in their right mind would allow (legally) police access to that area. They will send your records, with proper authorization but very few people have access to medical records in the hospital. I know, I work there.
Granted most facilities will send medical records to a requester (assuming all legal documents have been signed), but it is not that uncommon to have folks come into inspect records. Especially of they are patients requesting to review their own records for the purposes of accuracy or to dispute certain inclusions. In my capacity at the law firm I used to work at, I would sometimes go to the facility to review records.
As for the number of folks that can see your medical records, well, anyone involved in your care has access to those records. I know, I worked in healthcare for over 30 years, been an "expert" for EMTALA/HIPPA, and used to work at a law firm doing med malpractice cases.
That being said, Kaiser (or Straub) suggesting that HPD make a determination of your fitness to own a firearm after reviewing your medical records is laughable on its face. First, those officers cannot even begin to understand the medical terminology let alone weigh all the subtle facts to make an accurate decision. Add to that the civil liability (HPD isn't provided immunity like a healthcare provider), and you can easily understand why HPD doesn't, and won't, make those determinations.
Post by: HiCarry on November 30, 2015, 02:39:52 PM
do a search, there was an instance in the last few years where the ACLU helped with a case on the 2a sideHDF used them and most recently it was the HRA and myself that contacted the ACLU with regards to a release of information/document request.
i cannot remember the details, but i believe HDF or HRA was involved
The ACLU allows its state chapters to make a determination about their Second Amendment interpretations. Our state chapter isn't so much "pro-2A" as it is fair about determining who to help. Of course, the fact that I worked with the director at a law firm in the past probably didn't hurt.
Post by: HiCarry on November 30, 2015, 02:41:17 PM
Well, I went to see a doctor not affiliated with Kaiser who agreed to write the letter, but without the exact phrasing "no longer affected by..." in it. I have to renew my long gun permit on Wednesday. So, I'll see how it goes. If I'm denied, then I guess I'm calling Mr. Holcomb and signing on to any litigation.Call him regardless of the outcome
Post by: HiCarry on November 30, 2015, 02:48:42 PM
Ok I'm jumping in here because I was one of the first to go through this shit about a yr ago, and trust me I haven't bought anything since cuz the time and bullshit you gotta do now but that's exactly what they want. Last year I got flagged by Kaiser I guess when hpd was waiting for their response when I was trying to buy a gun. Hpd said I got flagged and that u needed my dr to do that same letter. Went to my dr at Kaiser and said they don't write out letters..... So I went to a psychologist got cleared and btw I had to pay to see him, had him send a fax and the original. So my question is will my letter from the psychologist suffice or do I have to get a new one every time and pay extra everytime I want to buy a gun. ?Have you contacted Mr. Holcomb?
So then I go back and talk with Kaiser, I asked to talk to the person who flagged me. I should have gotten her name, but this lady was like you seen a counselor in the past (I was grieving over a break up after 7 yrs and my grandfathers death at the same time) and in the social service work that I do, it is recommended to go get counseling ourselves so that's what I did. Anyways the lady over the phone also said "sir you bought so many guns the past year why do you need so many guns, who has that many guns" I told her what does it matter to you what the hell I buy, I said lady I buy, sell, design custom guns and collect them but she didn't give a fuck and there was no way of getting the clearance with her so I had to go to an outside provider.
Like I said it's been a yr or so since that happened and I haven't been back since but I need to go and renew my paperwork so we'll see what happens, AND..... The new MDR from desert tech is coming out real soon, I've been waiting for that bull pup for over a yr to come out.
Sorry haven't had chance to read this entire post but hopefully this shit gets resolved, it's such a hardship, extra time and money that we have to pay just cuz they flag us for no fkn reason.
So does everyone need to go through this shit now and not just Kaiser members who seen a counselor???
Post by: HiCarry on November 30, 2015, 02:51:50 PM
I thought Mr. Holcomb was Wolfhound this whole time... :shake:Contact Mr. Holcomb at his office: 545-4040
Do we contact his office or do you have a preferred method for contacting him?
Post by: scorpio ps on November 30, 2015, 04:33:52 PM
Post by: Dumbgun on November 30, 2015, 05:23:16 PM
Post by: Heavies on November 30, 2015, 07:43:47 PM
Granted most facilities will send medical records to a requester (assuming all legal documents have been signed), but it is not that uncommon to have folks come into inspect records. Especially of they are patients requesting to review their own records for the purposes of accuracy or to dispute certain inclusions. In my capacity at the law firm I used to work at, I would sometimes go to the facility to review records.Question, is it not wrong for Kaiser to send a persons ENTIRE medical records over to HPD, when you sign a waiver the specifically says "...all records which have a bearing on my mental health..."? Is that not a violation of medical privacy?
As for the number of folks that can see your medical records, well, anyone involved in your care has access to those records. I know, I worked in healthcare for over 30 years, been an "expert" for EMTALA/HIPPA, and used to work at a law firm doing med malpractice cases.
That being said, Kaiser (or Straub) suggesting that HPD make a determination of your fitness to own a firearm after reviewing your medical records is laughable on its face. First, those officers cannot even begin to understand the medical terminology let alone weigh all the subtle facts to make an accurate decision. Add to that the civil liability (HPD isn't provided immunity like a healthcare provider), and you can easily understand why HPD doesn't, and won't, make those determinations.
I am, not caught up in this madness, but am very concerned for the folks who are.
To everyone that is involved call up Mr. Holcomb whether you get your permit accepted or not. Do not take a double standard of the rules and regulations required by this state, and at the whim of an anti gun provider, to exercise your rights.
Post by: mikenkapolei on November 30, 2015, 08:11:30 PM
Since lying on the form submitted to HPD is a felony, you probably shouldn't be so willing to post that incriminating info in an open forum....
Post by: mikenkapolei on November 30, 2015, 08:13:36 PM
Post by: Scar16 on November 30, 2015, 08:21:23 PM
I am meeting with Mr. HOLCOMB. At his office tomorrow DEC 01 at 9AM, 1136 Union Mall #808. Anyone wishing to piggyback on my appointment is welcome. He as another meeting with the other complainants DEC 11 I will not be able to attend that one. I am bringing all my paper work. Still waiting on Kaiser to send me my records.
I'll try and take off work and meet you down there, if I can get off work?? Something needs to change, Kaiser already screwed me once for hipa violation.
Post by: whynow? on November 30, 2015, 09:23:00 PM
Post by: Heavies on November 30, 2015, 10:04:21 PM
I plan to renew a long gun permit. On the mental health form online, do you just initial MENTAL HEALTH or both including the substance abuse and do you still need to use their Firearms Information Form with carbon copy?You would still have to use their carbon copy form. I've seen them accept forms and deny the other forms from the internet on a random basis Maybe they didn't print out to their satisfaction? I'd just use the forms as a "cheat sheet" to fill out the forms they give you.
Post by: whynow? on November 30, 2015, 10:43:59 PM
You would still have to use their carbon copy form. I've seen them accept forms and deny the other forms from the internet on a random basis Maybe they didn't print out to their satisfaction? I'd just use the forms as a "cheat sheet" to fill out the forms they give you.Thanks bro Heavies.
Post by: Day Day on November 30, 2015, 11:09:44 PM
Post by: Q on November 30, 2015, 11:33:57 PM
TIME TO ALERT THE MEDIA!!! Someone who knows Gina Mangieri, please call her to investigate this infringement on our 2a. I believe HPD is compelling us, Kaiser and Straub to submit the letters so HPD personnel doesn't have to go through all the med records of each individual applicant, imagine how time consuming, and the resources it takes just to do that. Simple fix, just throw the onus on the applicant and med clinics. Not Straub or Kaisers fault either because it would create extreme liability for the clinics and their Doctors to sign releases (especially with the currant verbage) for all their patients regardless of whether the patient had prior mental/drug issues or not. I know I wouldn't jeopardize my practice and future signing off on a clearance. Their malpractice insurance premiums are outrageous as it is already so add this additional liability on top of that? no ways.
Physicians and Psychologists/Psychiatrists are
§134-18 Qualified immunity for physicians, psychologists, or psychiatrists who provide information on permit applicants. There shall be no civil liability for any physician, psychologist, or psychiatrist who provides information or renders an opinion in response to an inquiry made for purposes of issuing a firearm permit under section 134-2 or for purposes of investigating the continuing mental health of the holder of a valid firearm permit provided that the physician, psychologist, or psychiatrist acted without malice. [L 1992, c 287, §1; am L 1994, c 204, §10]
So in other words, Kaiser and Straub are just supporting the anti-2a sentiment in Hawaii.
Post by: causa mortis on December 01, 2015, 12:43:27 AM
I e-mailed him back to let him know that I can't accept the letter in its current form, with the verbiage stating I'm "no longer adversely affected..." in it. I absolutely hate that statement, because it implies that at one time I DID have an issue. I'll see if he can correct it, and to see if HPD will accept it with the slightly altered wording.
Post by: scorpio ps on December 01, 2015, 07:02:26 AM
Aloha,
We only require that Kaiser inform the HPD investigators in writing or fax if you have or have not been diagnosed and/or treated or counseled for any one or more of the following:
Drug or Alcohol Addiction/Abuse/Dependence
Behavioral/Emotional/Mental Disorders
Organic Brain Syndrome
Kaiser has chosen to release Kaiser clients entire medical file to the HPD investigators. HPD investigators are not medically trained to determine any or the above listed disorders.
You can seek any license doctor to submit a letter on your behalf.
HPD Firearms Unit
Read it and understand what it is saying, then read it again. Nothing about the reason for the letter (gun purchase). We are getting closer. Send those emails out to your representatives. Show me how tough you really are. Who do you want to be David or Goliath. Just cause the old guys have lost their hair, It doesn't mean you've lost your strength. It's all about leverage. Get that salvo directed and fire for affect....
Post by: GZire on December 01, 2015, 08:07:00 AM
I do not believe that HPD is the problem. Previous post have mentioned Kaiser sending applicant's medical records to HPD for review. From my conversation with HPD it sounds like now Straub is asking HPD to send officers to their facility to review applicant's records and determine if the applicant should or should not be approved for their permit to acquire because of mental health. HPD's reasonable response is they are not doctors and they cannot make that determination. I believe Kaiser and Straub are the problem and not HPD. I may be wrong, but that is my opinion.
I was told the same thing as Inspector's quote, that HPD will meet with Kaiser and Straub to try to come to an agreement and return things back to "normal". I sincerely believe HPD is trying to work this out so that law abiding citizens can continue to purchase firearms within the current (although ridiculous ) system.
The bald officer is Mick :)
Granted most facilities will send medical records to a requester (assuming all legal documents have been signed), but it is not that uncommon to have folks come into inspect records. Especially of they are patients requesting to review their own records for the purposes of accuracy or to dispute certain inclusions. In my capacity at the law firm I used to work at, I would sometimes go to the facility to review records.
As for the number of folks that can see your medical records, well, anyone involved in your care has access to those records. I know, I worked in healthcare for over 30 years, been an "expert" for EMTALA/HIPPA, and used to work at a law firm doing med malpractice cases.
That being said, Kaiser (or Straub) suggesting that HPD make a determination of your fitness to own a firearm after reviewing your medical records is laughable on its face. First, those officers cannot even begin to understand the medical terminology let alone weigh all the subtle facts to make an accurate decision. Add to that the civil liability (HPD isn't provided immunity like a healthcare provider), and you can easily understand why HPD doesn't, and won't, make those determinations.
I must respectfully disagree guys. At this time, and I didn't go back and scan the entire thread, I've yet to hear about issues from KPD, MPD, or the Big Island PD. Why is this only an issue in Oahu? To me unless no one on the outer islands has either a Straub or Kaiser PCP/Doctor, then this means it's exclusive to Oahu..........meaning HPD and their higher ups.
Also I strongly recommend you members check out the related thread in the membership section. While not as long and doesn't have as much information it does have some interesting information.
Post by: j10nke on December 01, 2015, 08:43:18 AM
Post by: Dumbgun on December 01, 2015, 01:07:10 PM
After appointment went to Kaiser waipio to get my promised records. The lady who helped me the first time was not there, Another receptionist/cashier helped me, and "surprise" she said she could not find my request for my records,, which I made in person at Kaiser waipio.
This! lady helped me and had me call there records dept, I spoke with Anita who said she spoke with her supervisor. She said I could come down to records at dole canary, to pick up my records. she also said she will give me the letter they send to HPD which states That I have no mental/drug history. Anita sounds as if she is doing her job correctly with no bias.
I called MR. HOLCOMB. To invite him to attend and witness the process, as I shall make an attempt to acquire my pistol. He has to be in court at 1PM. So I shall go to records early and get the documents and try get registered. As of now I am to call MR. HOLCOMB to see if I can get all this done with him there and enough time for him to make it to court. If successful will post the relevant info of how. Im not holding out much hope.
Correction:
MR. HOLCOMB is located at 1136 not 1138.
Look for the century building then next is finance factors then his bldg.Union Plazza. Theres a ninja sushi street side. Underground parking availlable
Post by: scorpio ps on December 01, 2015, 01:54:53 PM
Post by: scorpio ps on December 01, 2015, 02:02:41 PM
We only require that Kaiser inform the HPD investigators in writing or fax if you have or have not been diagnosed and/or treated or counseled for any one or more of the following:
Drug or Alcohol Addiction/Abuse/Dependence
Behavioral/Emotional/Mental Disorders
Organic Brain Syndrome
Kaiser has chosen to release Kaiser clients entire medical file to the HPD investigators. HPD investigators are not medically trained to determine any or the above listed disorders.
The above is happening because that it is what the release asks for that HPD hands you if you are a Straub or Kaiser member. If they were to send a specific (like above) request, perhaps the outcome would be different.
Post by: Steves808 on December 01, 2015, 02:04:31 PM
Post by: jimbo on December 01, 2015, 02:15:22 PM
Got my "permit to acquire" (long gun)today and I'm a Kaiser member. Did not have to get a letter signed or anything, but while in line I heard police officer instructing someone they have to get that same letter that was circulating signed by a doctor. Police officers explained that they are trying something "new," he also said that "they are just sending over patients records".... Hope that helps a bit :shaka:You applied before the 23rd right? I picked up my handgun permit yesterday and went back this morning to register it. Didn't have to fingerprint or take picture, just normal registration. My long gun expires next month though...
Post by: scorpio ps on December 01, 2015, 02:21:03 PM
Post by: Inspector on December 01, 2015, 02:34:30 PM
Post by: mauidog on December 01, 2015, 02:48:55 PM
Steve808 can you please be more specific. What date did you apply for your long gun permit. Sounds to me like you were in before the TaLI letter came out.
You mean, the OBL?
Osama Bin Letter
:rofl:
Post by: Q on December 01, 2015, 05:50:20 PM
I called Mr Holcomb last Friday around 1pm or so. He was off work and doing family things. I apologized and he said he would call me Monday morning. Which was yesterday. I have not heard from him as of right now.
Tried calling him today for a separate issue; he is a very, very busy man.
Post by: dogman on December 01, 2015, 06:24:09 PM
I must respectfully disagree guys. At this time, and I didn't go back and scan the entire thread, I've yet to hear about issues from KPD, MPD, or the Big Island PD. Why is this only an issue in Oahu? To me unless no one on the outer islands has either a Straub or Kaiser PCP/Doctor, then this means it's exclusive to Oahu..........meaning HPD and their higher ups.That is a good point.
Post by: causa mortis on December 01, 2015, 06:57:25 PM
I was at HPD on Friday registering a new gun, and one of those officers told me it that I could alter the language about being "no longer adversely affected..." If this doesn't pan out, then I'm calling Mr. Holcomb. This is pure bullshit.
Post by: Heavies on December 01, 2015, 07:04:44 PM
Alright, here's the revised letter that I will take to HPD tomorrow: "I am writing to inform you that I saw *blank* for an evaluation session today. Mr. *blank* related to me that he has never had any mental health treatment at Kaiser's behavioral clinic or in the community. If Mr. *blank* had a mental health condition in the past, at present Mr. *blank* does not suffer from any mental health condition that would impact his ability to operate a firearm. Mr. *blank* shall, own, possess or control any firearm or ammunition and has been medically documented to be not affected by any addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions or concerns."Please contact anyway. It is not right you have to go out of way and out of pocket because Kaiser feels like they don't want to answer and simple question (or not respond at all), when others need not. Law is supposed to be consistent for all citizens... Otherwise what's the point?
I was at HPD on Friday registering a new gun, and one of those officers told me it that I could alter the language about being "no longer adversely affected..." If this doesn't pan out, then I'm calling Mr. Holcomb. This is pure bullshit.
Post by: macsak on December 01, 2015, 07:19:27 PM
Tried calling him today for a separate issue
always go with "she said she was 18"
Post by: Q on December 01, 2015, 10:13:10 PM
always go with "she said she was 18"
More like,
"We will ignore the federal law, but use the exact same federal law we are ignoring to enforce our anti-2a agenda"
Post by: macsak on December 01, 2015, 10:20:31 PM
More like,
"We will ignore the federal law, but use the exact same federal law we are ignoring to enforce our anti-2a agenda"
go get 'um, Q!
:thumbsup:
holcomb's going to be getting lots of calls (hopefully)
Post by: Inspector on December 02, 2015, 04:39:54 AM
Post by: 841gun on December 02, 2015, 11:14:56 AM
Post by: stangzilla on December 02, 2015, 11:35:39 AM
does the letter then make the doctor the person who hpd sends request to from now on, or does that mean you need to get a letter with every permit you apply for?
for me, since i am red flagged, the letter is good for a year so i can buy as much guns in 1 year for that letter
then i need a new one
not sure how long it lasts if you are not red flagged.
Post by: Dumbgun on December 02, 2015, 03:30:11 PM
Post by: mauidog on December 02, 2015, 03:41:19 PM
Went to HPD with med records in hand picked them up at there facility in dole cannery. Went to register and HPD ddid not accept the letter saying that i have no mental history on file. I told the officer to call the Kaiser records facility and speak to the lady who helped me. the officer did and came back and handed me the example letter with what they wanted. I then informed him again that Kaiser Dr. won't do it. I then told him that no outside DR. is willing to review or take me as a patient. So i said to officer i saidI didn't have any insurance. He stated that they would process my paperwork. The guy in font of me said that he lied and told them he had no insurance. Went to a gun store and asked a "worker" there. He said he had Kaiser but tells them he no insurance, and gets processed. No problem. So upon leaving I stated "tits on a bull" The officer did not get it. still looking for a DR. or should I say "No insurance"
So, what this is saying is, it's not about screening permit applicants for risks. If it were, they would not accept "No insurance" as a loophole. They would say, "No letter, no permit!"
Hypothetically, if a person (let's call him The Joker) wants a gun, he only has to mention he has no health insurance, and he can cover up his history of mental defects and diagnosis of severely violent tendencies?
I was under the impression Obamacare was going to cover everyone who is uninsured, so this "excuse" for not getting a clearance letter should not be acceptable.
This is getting more and more ridiculous. We are observing what happens when government is more concerned with policy than individual rights and reasonable, "common sense" restrictions.
Post by: Q on December 02, 2015, 03:54:30 PM
Went to HPD with med records in hand picked them up at there facility in dole cannery. Went to register and HPD ddid not accept the letter saying that i have no mental history on file. I told the officer to call the Kaiser records facility and speak to the lady who helped me. the officer did and came back and handed me the example letter with what they wanted. I then informed him again that Kaiser Dr. won't do it. I then told him that no outside DR. is willing to review or take me as a patient. So i said to officer i saidI didn't have any insurance. He stated that they would process my paperwork. The guy in font of me said that he lied and told them he had no insurance. Went to a gun store and asked a "worker" there. He said he had Kaiser but tells them he no insurance, and gets processed. No problem. So upon leaving I stated "tits on a bull" The officer did not get it. still looking for a DR. or should I say "No insurance"
So essentially, this has nothing to do with 'legitimizing' or 'improving' the background check; just another unnecessary loop hole they are putting in place.
Being that HPD monitors this forum, I wouldn't break the law if you happen to obtain insurance in the future. If you don't have insurance, put no insurance. If you have insurance but dr's won't see you, I'd seek more stringent legal counsel.
What that guy in front of you and what the 'worker' at the gvn shop told you is not only highly irresponsible, but also illegal, and actually puts all of us at risk in the future, should HPD get wind of this and seek to 'correct it'. It's because of stupid shit like what they are doing that we have these new stupid rules in place, along with all the other stupid rules that were already in place. Well...that and the anti-2a idiots that run our system are a bunch of ass hats.
Post by: mauidog on December 02, 2015, 04:14:16 PM
1. Have non-Kaiser or non-Straub insurance? Background check done by HPD. Permit issued if no problems.
2. Have Kaiser or Straub? Must PAY FOR ANOTHER DOCTOR to give you a clearance letter. No letter = no permit.
3. Don't have insurance at all? Pass go and collect $200! Background check for mental health is skipped, and permit issued (no possibility of problems when no check is done).
Why do they force someone WITH an HMO to go outside the HMO for a letter, but someone with NO insurance is not? Is that because HPD assumes no insurance = no mental health history b/c no doctor?
If that's not a loophole, I don't know what is!
Post by: suka on December 02, 2015, 04:45:19 PM
Here's what I'm reading into this:
1. Have non-Kaiser or non-Straub insurance? Background check done by HPD. Permit issued if no problems.
2. Have Kaiser or Straub? Must PAY FOR ANOTHER DOCTOR to give you a clearance letter. No letter = no permit.
3. Don't have insurance at all? Pass go and collect $200! Background check for mental health is skipped, and permit issued (no possibility of problems when no check is done).
Why do they force someone WITH an HMO to go outside the HMO for a letter, but someone with NO insurance is not? Is that because HPD assumes no insurance = no mental health history b/c no doctor?
If that's not a loophole, I don't know what is!
:thumbs:
YEEAAAAP , A Dr is NOT required by HRS.
It only allows access to any records they find or your voluntary submission of none public records.
Post by: Dumbgun on December 02, 2015, 04:54:25 PM
I am keeping MR. Holcomb informed of what is happening in my situation, as too further the cause for all.
Coincidentally, I was standing next to a guy, who just so happened to be calling the khon2 tip line. Maybe some other brave souls can make an anonymous call.
Post by: suka on December 02, 2015, 04:59:27 PM
Any health insurance not meeting the "minimum essential coverage" is not in compliance with the law, Even if your current Insurance (non Marketplace) meets or exceeds all coverage requirements.
There are ways which allows exemption of all tax requirements that would meet the minimum essential coverage. Thus , a person is not required to purchase a Health Insurance Plan.
Post by: Q on December 02, 2015, 06:26:20 PM
:thumbs:
YEEAAAAP , A Dr is NOT required by HRS.
It only allows access to any records they find or your voluntary submission of none public records.
The yellow form is a release of info relating to mental care and substance abuse, filed through a particular department that has access to records in the state system.
Post by: Gordyf on December 02, 2015, 08:13:48 PM
???
Post by: dogman on December 02, 2015, 08:38:25 PM
Post by: dogman on December 02, 2015, 08:42:06 PM
Post by: K9 on December 02, 2015, 10:56:55 PM
Post by: macsak on December 02, 2015, 11:03:59 PM
In case anyone wants to address the issue highlighted directly with HPD or Councilmember Fukunaga's Office, and the Mayor's Rep directly.
mahalo K9
:shaka:
Post by: suka on December 02, 2015, 11:17:47 PM
File form 8965
(http://obamacarefacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/obamacare-exemptions-list-updated.jpg)
Post by: 841gun on December 03, 2015, 12:43:23 AM
Post by: causa mortis on December 03, 2015, 12:18:55 PM
In either case, I will probably join any litigation because I had to pay $150 out of pocket to get this letter written, which is an infringement, in my opinion.
Post by: mauidog on December 03, 2015, 01:10:01 PM
So I took in the letter to renew my long gun permit and so far it looks like they accepted it. I'll go back in two weeks to see if my new permit is ready. Mr. Holcomb told me I should just wait until I'm either approved or denied my new permit. I'll call him on the 16th (permit p/u day) and see where we go from there.
In either case, I will probably join any litigation because I had to pay $150 out of pocket to get this letter written, which is an infringement, in my opinion.
If HPD is requiring you to pay out-of-pocket for a letter they know your insurance-paid provider will not do for you, but letting anyone without insurance be approved without such a letter, at the very least that's unequal application of the law.
Yeah, if I were you, I'd plan on litigation no matter the permit decision.
Post by: GZire on December 03, 2015, 02:22:37 PM
Did I miss something, or is this confirmed to be just on Oahu.???
???
As far as I can tell this is HPD only. I cannot recall of anyone on Kauai, Maui/Molokai/Lanai, or the Big Island chiming in.
As I have stated before if this is true then saying that Kaiser and Straub are requiring this is a total and complete fabrication by the HPD higher ups.................as I am quite sure that someone in one of the other counties would have Kaiser or Straub.
Post by: HiCarry on December 03, 2015, 02:24:37 PM
You calling me a liar? Nice. I never said anything about lying on a form. Get your facts straight.
Maybe I misunderstood?
Quote
I haven't had a primary care physician for a few years. I've always put "N/A" for my Doctor and never had a problem obtaining pistol or renewing long gun permits. Has this changed as well?
I read it to mean that you had a primary care doc, but haven't for "a few years" but that even when you did have you put N/A on the HPD forms....
Post by: HiCarry on December 03, 2015, 02:26:11 PM
Question, is it not wrong for Kaiser to send a persons ENTIRE medical records over to HPD, when you sign a waiver the specifically says "...all records which have a bearing on my mental health..."? Is that not a violation of medical privacy?You sign two releases: one for your medical history/records and one for your mental health history/records
I am, not caught up in this madness, but am very concerned for the folks who are.
To everyone that is involved call up Mr. Holcomb whether you get your permit accepted or not. Do not take a double standard of the rules and regulations required by this state, and at the whim of an anti gun provider, to exercise your rights.
Post by: Dumbgun on December 03, 2015, 03:04:10 PM
I asked the officer if my outsides Dr. note is good forever or Would I have to get a new one for every handgun bought hereafter, with current date at time of application. He said no that was good for all future purchases. Be aware that may also change, For Kaiser patients when you sign the medical /mental forms list the DR. that reviewed the kaiser files.
I had to pay $130.00 for the DR. to do Kaisers job.
I am still deciding if I will join the lawsuit with MR. HOLCOMB. still looking at all my options before I commit to such a major battle.
Post by: tanakattack on December 06, 2015, 07:01:39 AM
HPD accepted my outside DR. note and I filed, the usual forms. I did have to get fingerprinted and photographed as well. They now have the camera mounted on wall next to window and fingerprint is done at the window. Except for the camera I get the sense that even the officer's do not like the new system.
I asked the officer if my outsides Dr. note is good forever or Would I have to get a new one for every handgun bought hereafter, with current date at time of application. He said no that was good for all future purchases. Be aware that may also change, For Kaiser patients when you sign the medical /mental forms list the DR. that reviewed the kaiser files.
I had to pay $130.00 for the DR. to do Kaisers job.
I am still deciding if I will join the lawsuit with MR. HOLCOMB. still looking at all my options before I commit to such a major battle.
Yeah.. Better to wait till AFTER your rights are taken before you do something about it.
Post by: HiCarry on December 07, 2015, 09:26:34 AM
Post by: Old Guy on December 07, 2015, 10:49:20 AM
Please remember that Hi Carry and other HRA members working behind the scenes are NOT being Paid by HRA.
They have Real jobs to pay their bills.
Without the work of the HRA, chances are Excellent, there would no 2A and Private ownership of any kind of firearms in Hawaii.
Something to think about.
Post by: Dumbgun on December 07, 2015, 03:51:53 PM
1. Don't mention me, if theres a "secret squirrel" on this forum, I don't want you jamming it up for me and the DR. pulls his endorsement of me.
2. DR. is a real M.D. he is not rubber stamping. He will check you out.
3. Fee is $130. Cash or credit. When HPD took my application, I asked, and the officer said that the DR. clearance is good for all future purchases. But who knows what they'll come up with next.
4. Have all your records. Kaiser (at least one year) to include the standard no drug/mental letter. Obtainable at dole canary 2nd floor across theatre parking lot the one with the skywalk. I misplaced the number so you have to look it up. Anita will take
care of you.
5. Bring your gun safety affidavit. I even brought my permits from Aug 2104, a rifle and pistol, to show I was legal. if you have your long gun permit thats dated as to when you was last cleared. All this will help. Just bring everything you have gun related.
6. I went thru 11 DR's this was only one who was willing to do the review. DO NOT FUCK IT UP FOR ME!, or others who need a non Kaiser review. Im supposed to get my permit and pistol on 12/17. After that I don't care.
DR. Lu FIATOA M.D.
MANA Medical Center
(808) 200-3305
94-307 Farrington HWY., B01
Waipahu. Hi 96797
Post by: mauidog on December 07, 2015, 04:29:06 PM
I just got permission from DR. office. they are willing to do the review for firearms clearance.
1. Don't mention me, if theres a "secret squirrel" on this forum, I don't want you jamming it up for me and the DR. pulls his endorsement of me.
2. DR. is a real M.D. he is not rubber stamping. He will check you out.
3. Fee is $130. Cash or credit. When HPD took my application, I asked, and the officer said that the DR. clearance is good for all future purchases. But who knows what they'll come up with next.
4. Have all your records. Kaiser (at least one year) to include the standard no drug/mental letter. Obtainable at dole canary 2nd floor across theatre parking lot the one with the skywalk. I misplaced the number so you have to look it up. Anita will take
care of you.
5. Bring your gun safety affidavit. I even brought my permits from Aug 2104, a rifle and pistol, to show I was legal. if you have your long gun permit thats dated as to when you was last cleared. All this will help. Just bring everything you have gun related.
6. I went thru 11 DR's this was only one who was willing to do the review. DO NOT FUCK IT UP FOR ME!, or others who need a non Kaiser review. Im supposed to get my permit and pistol on 12/17. After that I don't care.
DR. Lu FIATOA M.D.
MANA Medical Center
(808) 200-3305
94-307 Farrington HWY., B01
Waipahu. Hi 96797
You sound angry and paranoid. Perhaps we should email Dr. Lu Fiatoa about that?
:rofl:
Post by: Dumbgun on December 08, 2015, 03:10:02 AM
You sound angry and paranoid. Perhaps we should email Dr. Lu Fiatoa about that?Nope and nope. email who you want.
:rofl:
Post by: beekeeping1341 on December 08, 2015, 12:08:41 PM
Post by: Q on December 08, 2015, 12:16:39 PM
This bullshit is still happening at HPD. Two people were just turned away for not having their docter at straub or kaiser type up some letter. I'm still in this far too long line waiting to apply for my handgun permit and I'm hoping they don't have my doctor? In the military have to type up a letter.
I think for now it only applies to Kaiser and Straub patients; you are TriCare.
If they do turn you away, I suggest you contact Mr. Holcomb IMMEDIATELY.
His number is somewhere on this thread.
Post by: Scar16 on December 09, 2015, 12:02:07 AM
Post by: Q on December 09, 2015, 12:39:20 AM
I got my dr.s note Jan of this year and I have to renew my rifle permit, does it still suffice? Or do I need to pay another 100+ just to get my permit. This is nonsense!
I think it's good for a year.
If they turn you away, ask them to point out in the firearms policy where it states that your letter isn't good for a year, or that it needs to be renewed every year.
If they continue to give you shit, contact Mr. Holcomb; his number is somewhere on this thread.
Post by: GOLDdealer on December 09, 2015, 09:51:43 AM
Will review your medical for suitability to possess firearms
Post by: bikercarl on December 09, 2015, 08:47:32 PM
"Aloha,
We only require that Kaiser inform the HPD investigators in writing or fax if you have or have not been diagnosed and/or treated or counseled for any one or more of the following:
Drug or Alcohol Addiction/Abuse/Dependence
Behavioral/Emotional/Mental Disorders
Organic Brain Syndrome
Kaiser has chosen to release Kaiser clients entire medical file to the HPD investigators. HPD investigators are not medically trained to determine any or the above listed disorders.
The above is happening because that it is what the release asks for that HPD hands you if you are a Straub or Kaiser member. If they were to send a specific (like above) request, perhaps the outcome would be different.
Aloha All,
Has anyone been successful with a Kaiser letter to written to this effect? Please update us if you were/not successful. Mahalo in advance for sharing with us in these stressful times!
Mahalo and Malama!
BikerCarl
Post by: SpeedTek on December 10, 2015, 08:19:41 AM
I just got permission from DR. office. they are willing to do the review for firearms clearance.
1. Don't mention me, if theres a "secret squirrel" on this forum, I don't want you jamming it up for me and the DR. pulls his endorsement of me.
2. DR. is a real M.D. he is not rubber stamping. He will check you out.
3. Fee is $130. Cash or credit. When HPD took my application, I asked, and the officer said that the DR. clearance is good for all future purchases. But who knows what they'll come up with next.
4. Have all your records. Kaiser (at least one year) to include the standard no drug/mental letter. Obtainable at dole canary 2nd floor across theatre parking lot the one with the skywalk. I misplaced the number so you have to look it up. Anita will take
care of you.
5. Bring your gun safety affidavit. I even brought my permits from Aug 2104, a rifle and pistol, to show I was legal. if you have your long gun permit thats dated as to when you was last cleared. All this will help. Just bring everything you have gun related.
6. I went thru 11 DR's this was only one who was willing to do the review. DO NOT FUCK IT UP FOR ME!, or others who need a non Kaiser review. Im supposed to get my permit and pistol on 12/17. After that I don't care.
DR. Lu FIATOA M.D.
MANA Medical Center
(808) 200-3305
94-307 Farrington HWY., B01
Waipahu. Hi 96797
Post by: SpeedTek on December 10, 2015, 08:28:49 AM
Ken Ito and Ty Cullen
Post by: Rocky on December 10, 2015, 09:55:27 AM
I really hope all the people having HPD problems here are Dues Paying Members of HRA and not Moochers of HRA's work.
Please remember that Hi Carry and other HRA members working behind the scenes are NOT being Paid by HRA.
They have Real jobs to pay their bills.
Without the work of the HRA, chances are Excellent, there would no 2A and Private ownership of any kind of firearms in Hawaii.
Something to think about.
Post by: jerry_03 on December 10, 2015, 11:17:11 AM
QuoteFor the people that are concerned, if you applied prior to yesterday, the new changes do not affect you.
just to clarify, hpd confirms this?
can confirm. I have kaiser too and I applied for my pistol permit prior to 11/23 and was able to pick it up on Monday no problem.
However I will be applying for a new pistol permit next week and we'll see if HPD asks for a letter. ( I already have a letter from an outside doctor but its from earlier this year, so we'll see if HPD will still honor it)
Post by: hepcat96821 on December 10, 2015, 01:19:26 PM
Post by: Gordyf on December 10, 2015, 02:36:12 PM
Write to these State Reps They are Pro 2A:
Ken Ito and Ty Cullen
Sam Kong Dist 33 Aiea says he is one of us too!
Post by: Q on December 10, 2015, 02:37:19 PM
I just checked with HPD firearms division. Apparently this letter from your physician can be used as much as need be for one year. So you will not be required to see a doctor everytime you purchase a handgun with that years time. that being said, this is still rubbish
But did thy give you that in writing, or did you record the conversation?
HPD is known to change it's procedure on a day to day basis.
Post by: hepcat96821 on December 11, 2015, 06:02:33 AM
Post by: Gordyf on December 15, 2015, 07:06:19 PM
Have we caved and accepted it as fait accompli?
I have not needed to get a permit, mine is good til August, but where is this going. I will have to go through the motions then, and I have Kaiser.
Have not been without a PTA since 1994 and am a C&R
We gotta keep beating the drums in this lest it drop into the recycle bin of "old News"
Then they win and we don't want that.
Aloha
Post by: mauidog on December 15, 2015, 07:11:02 PM
Nothing on this since 12/11??
Have we caved and accepted it as fait accompli?
I have not needed to get a permit, mine is good til August, but where is this going. I will have to go through the motions then, and I have Kaiser.
Have not been without a PTA since 1994 and am a C&R
We gotta keep beating the drums in this lest it drop into the recycle bin of "old News"
Then they win and we don't want that.
Aloha
This subject has split off into several other threads, including whether one can change from Kaiser insurance.
Post by: dstyles on December 16, 2015, 10:34:58 AM
Post by: Heavies on December 16, 2015, 10:37:17 AM
We should get the HRA and the NRA on this.HRA is attempting work on this, NRA probably not as of yet.
Post by: causa mortis on December 16, 2015, 12:03:29 PM
So, now I think I'll contact Mr. Holcomb and see what my legal options are. The $150 I had to pay to get this letter is complete bullshit.
Edit: talked to Mr. Holcomb's paralegal(?) and he said that since I was accepted I don't really fit the type of person they needed on any litigation. They took down my contact info. and said they'll call me if need be.
Post by: GlockNewb on December 16, 2015, 07:46:32 PM
Post by: Dumbgun on December 17, 2015, 01:06:31 PM
To any 2A members who was there between 10:30-11:00am. That was me losing it, not too off the rails I think. Not so much asshole, more of a douchery attitude.
Post by: Q on December 17, 2015, 02:57:21 PM
Just came from HPD. Today was my pick up day. DENIED. Do not use the DR. I recommended. HPD objected to the wording. Even though they accepted it the first time, The officer said an Officer Ah sing tried to call and inform me of problem, I call bull shit! I keep phone on an with me at all times. No missed call or voice mail. I made the usual arguments, to SGT. R. JAEGER to no avail. Trying to get DR. GREENLEY to review. This springfield 1911 is turning out to be the most expensive gun I have ever bought.
To any 2A members who was there between 10:30-11:00am. That was me losing it, not too off the rails I think. Not so much asshole, more of a douchery attitude.
Wait...why were you turned away for the most recent letter? Was it because it didn't have the exact wording as the template they provide?
Post by: Dumbgun on December 17, 2015, 06:48:20 PM
So trying to get Appt. with DR. G. Mailed my medical records, outside DR. letter and HPD provided toilet paper. also The Kaiser letter stating that I have no drug or mental history. Receptionist said he won't be able to see me until January, providing he will even see me.
Im running $300.00 in the hole here. Thats a quarter the price of the pistol. Not counting the USMC EGA grips I ordered in anticipation.
Still deciding if I'm staying in this half ass california wannabe chicken/bullshit state. If I stay I will join Holcomb's lawsuit and go all in for CCW.
Post by: Q on December 17, 2015, 07:25:01 PM
Yup, The last time I went the Officer took the letter, said it was good for all future purchases. Filled the normal paper work, Turned in paperwork officer took fresh fingerprint and took picture. pointed to pick up dates, So I went today to get permit. officer behind window said needed to get it in exact wording as printed there on HPD form letter. small snap on officer. referred me to SGT. JAEGER, He played his song and did his dance. In a nutshell its not HPD, its kaiser. Hell! I even told the officer to run his rap and warrant check with my permission and I would pay for it.
So trying to get Appt. with DR. G. Mailed my medical records, outside DR. letter and HPD provided toilet paper. also The Kaiser letter stating that I have no drug or mental history. Receptionist said he won't be able to see me until January, providing he will even see me.
Im running $300.00 in the hole here. Thats a quarter the price of the pistol. Not counting the USMC EGA grips I ordered in anticipation.
Still deciding if I'm staying in this half ass california wannabe chicken/bullshit state. If I stay I will join Holcomb's lawsuit and go all in for CCW.
Yes, Dr. Greenly does get back logged. I'm also weary that he may become an over-tapped resource and also refuse to help us if people keep having to redo their letters.
Post by: causa mortis on December 17, 2015, 08:31:16 PM
Yup, The last time I went the Officer took the letter, said it was good for all future purchases. Filled the normal paper work, Turned in paperwork officer took fresh fingerprint and took picture. pointed to pick up dates, So I went today to get permit. officer behind window said needed to get it in exact wording as printed there on HPD form letter. small snap on officer. referred me to SGT. JAEGER, He played his song and did his dance. In a nutshell its not HPD, its kaiser. Hell! I even told the officer to run his rap and warrant check with my permission and I would pay for it.
So trying to get Appt. with DR. G. Mailed my medical records, outside DR. letter and HPD provided toilet paper. also The Kaiser letter stating that I have no drug or mental history. Receptionist said he won't be able to see me until January, providing he will even see me.
Im running $300.00 in the hole here. Thats a quarter the price of the pistol. Not counting the USMC EGA grips I ordered in anticipation.
Still deciding if I'm staying in this half ass california wannabe chicken/bullshit state. If I stay I will join Holcomb's lawsuit and go all in for CCW.
Sorry to hear this. I turned in my letter with ALTERED wording and they accepted it - just picked up my long gun permit renewal yesterday. This is such a clusterfuck. How can HPD accept my letter, which ISN'T verbatim with their template, but then reject yours?
Post by: All_rice on December 17, 2015, 09:16:53 PM
Post by: causa mortis on December 17, 2015, 09:53:33 PM
Maybe the difference is in hand gun and long gun?
That would make no sense. You're mentally sound enough to purchase long guns but no handguns?
Post by: Aegis808 on December 17, 2015, 10:01:42 PM
That would make no sense. You're mentally sound enough to purchase long guns but no handguns?
it's compounded when most of these folks being denied already have multiple guns of both types already.
Post by: Dumbgun on December 17, 2015, 10:04:57 PM
Maybe the difference is in hand gun and long gun?
Denied both. Like most gun owners I simply apply both and pick up both after the two week wait. In fat the officers usually ask if you want to apply for both to save you the time and trip. so as usual applied for both. The DR. letter I submitted states that there is no evidence of drug or alcohol addiction/abuse/dependence. Behavioral/emotional/mental disorders. No organic brain syndrome.
They gave me back the copies they had. one yellow sticky. with the permit # G228625 and a ? on status. with (L) (H). the other sticky has. Same permit number, and ask sarge.
My theory is some city attorney is trying to make a name for himself, by cracking down on violent gun deaths in hawaii, for his future bid on becoming city prosecutor/mayor/fovernor.
Post by: Aegis808 on December 17, 2015, 10:06:38 PM
Denied both. Like most gun owners I simply apply both and pick up both after the two week wait. In fat the officers usually ask if you want to apply for both to save you the time and trip. so as usual applied for both. The DR. letter I submitted states that there is no evidence of drug or alcohol addiction/abuse/dependence. Behavioral/emotional/mental disorders. No organic brain syndrome.
They gave me back the copies they had. one yellow sticky. with the permit # G228625 and a ? on status. with (L) (H). the other sticky has. Same permit number, and ask sarge.
My theory is some city attorney is trying to make a name for himself, by cracking down on violent gun deaths in hawaii, for his future bid on becoming city prosecutor/mayor/fovernor.
maybe a future chief of police trying to look tough on gun owners.
Post by: mauidog on December 17, 2015, 11:02:07 PM
Post by: Dumbgun on December 17, 2015, 11:04:02 PM
If we can find out who implemented the new policy, well know who is viewing for the title of #1
Just requested kgmb do a story on the matter. Doubt they'll report it, with star wars and all. Every local channel showed a reporter talking to R2D2. No C3PO, probably because he's a gun owner? Hmmmm?
Post by: Q on December 18, 2015, 12:12:56 AM
oops! forgot about that dreamer.
If we can find out who implemented the new policy, well know who is viewing for the title of #1
Just requested kgmb do a story on the matter. Doubt they'll report it, with star wars and all. Every local channel showed a reporter talking to R2D2. No C3PO, probably because he's a gun owner? Hmmmm?
Line I said in a previous post: all my connections in various parts of the department are refusing to say anything.
Post by: Dumbgun on December 18, 2015, 04:56:44 PM
Apparently they had too much gun owners waking in and requesting there records. One more hurdle in our way.
Post by: Q on December 18, 2015, 06:45:19 PM
Trying to get another hard copy of my kaiser medical records. Receptionist says they are no longer allowing members to pick up in person. SO I have to go to kaiser fill out the information release form , state reason for release of MY records. wait however long it will take for them to do it. Then have them either mail or email the records. I chose post office as Im not going to buy another printer just for this.
Apparently they had too much gun owners waking in and requesting there records. One more hurdle in our way.
If going to Dr. Greenly, must be hard copy of medical records.
I would have them send you a hard copy; you don't want these records traveling on the net.
Post by: Gordyf on December 18, 2015, 06:58:57 PM
I have been looking for a 32-20 Colt revolver and a five screw Smith K-22.
Both C&R and both from the mainland.
Have held off 'cause the humbug, but I have a current PTA, current C&R.
Registration only???
Thoughts??
Aloha
Post by: suka on December 18, 2015, 07:01:57 PM
You go to Montana to visit Grandpa, He gives you several of his old firearms.
You fly them back to Hawaii,
You are not required to obtain a permit to acquire.
Thus no permit is required to register firearms.
Post by: mauidog on December 18, 2015, 08:23:51 PM
Has anyone tried to do a C&R registration since this foolishness started?
I have been looking for a 32-20 Colt revolver and a five screw Smith K-22.
Both C&R and both from the mainland.
Have held off 'cause the humbug, but I have a current PTA, current C&R.
Registration only???
Thoughts??
Aloha
When I bought a C&R, all I had to show was my Class 03 license, ID, proof it qualified for C&R status and my current Long Gun Permit. It was a revolver, but they didn't ask for the training affidavit.
Don't forget to log it into your personal C&R FFL Firearms Transfer Log.
It's just a registration process. Takes longer since they need to check all your paperwork, but if you go prepared, it's a breeze.
Post by: Gordyf on December 18, 2015, 08:40:12 PM
When I bought a C&R, all I had to show was my Class 03 license, ID, proof it qualified for C&R status and my current Long Gun Permit. It was a revolver, but they didn't ask for the training affidavit.
Don't forget to log it into your personal C&R FFL Firearms Transfer Log.
It's just a registration process. Takes longer since they need to check all your paperwork, but if you go prepared, it's a breeze.
Thanks Mauidog.
Was this recently, since the permit issue came up?
I am not a newbie to the C&R process.
Have done several and as you say, if your ducks are in a row it is easy.
Thanx
Gordy
Post by: mauidog on December 18, 2015, 09:13:48 PM
Thanks Mauidog.
Was this recently, since the permit issue came up?
I am not a newbie to the C&R process.
Have done several and as you say, if your ducks are in a row it is easy.
Thanx
Gordy
Unless you need to renew your Long Gun Permit to Acquire, it's still valid without having to do the psych letter.
Post by: dstyles on December 19, 2015, 01:51:28 AM
Post by: Q on December 19, 2015, 02:19:40 AM
Post by: Inspector on December 19, 2015, 06:57:49 AM
When I bought a C&R, all I had to show was my Class 03 license, ID, proof it qualified for C&R status and my current Long Gun Permit. It was a revolver, but they didn't ask for the training affidavit.Last C&R I registered they asked me to fill out the paperwork and sent it in to Kaiser. This was before all this started. But what was surprising is that they had never done that before. All they have ever done prior to this is just ask for my permits and copies of all my specific paperwork which I always come with. And never asked me to fill out nor sent in Kaiser/Medical forms. There are a few C&R guns I want to buy and I am afraid if I bring them in to register they will confiscate them. I asked the bald officer about what would happen if I have Kaiser and I bring in a C&R gun he said he didn't know because no one had done that yet.
Don't forget to log it into your personal C&R FFL Firearms Transfer Log.
It's just a registration process. Takes longer since they need to check all your paperwork, but if you go prepared, it's a breeze.
What I have done is contact Mr. Holcomb and we discussed this. So what I intend to do when my finances are better is I will buy another C&R and take it in to register it. But I need to be prepared for the consequences. After whatever happens I will contact Mr. Holcomb and join the lawsuit.
Post by: Q on December 19, 2015, 08:50:44 AM
Last C&R I registered they asked me to fill out the paperwork and sent it in to Kaiser. This was before all this started. But what was surprising is that they had never done that before. All they have ever done prior to this is just ask for my permits and copies of all my specific paperwork which I always come with. And never asked me to fill out nor sent in Kaiser/Medical forms. There are a few C&R guns I want to buy and I am afraid if I bring them in to register they will confiscate them. I asked the bald officer about what would happen if I have Kaiser and I bring in a C&R gun he said he didn't know because no one had done that yet.
What I have done is contact Mr. Holcomb and we discussed this. So what I intend to do when my finances are better is I will buy another C&R and take it in to register it. But I need to be prepared for the consequences. After whatever happens I will contact Mr. Holcomb and join the lawsuit.
How can they 'not know' what to do? They are supposed to know their own policies with regards to everything.
Post by: Inspector on December 19, 2015, 08:59:32 AM
How can they 'not know' what to do? They are supposed to know their own policies with regards to everything.I know what you are asking. But obviously I don't know the answer to that. I have to experiment to find out. I hate being the guinea pig but so be it.
Post by: Q on December 19, 2015, 11:45:00 AM
I know what you are asking. But obviously I don't know the answer to that. I have to experiment to find out. I hate being the guinea pig but so be it.
I know you don't know the reasoning behind
But then we must ask ourselves: Since when is it HPD's responsibility to interpret the law? I was under the assumption that, as employees of public safety, it was their responsibility to ENFORCE the law, not interpret or change it.
Guess good 'ol barry soetoro is rubbing off on these guys as well.
Post by: hispdvic on December 20, 2015, 03:14:52 PM
Just got word from an inside source: it's someone specifically in the firearms department causing this headache and not from the upper echelons.
If its somebody in the firearms section its, Sgt Jaeger, he runs the unit there is a Lt. that oversees several other sections in records that he reports too. But the Sgt., is able to make/suggest changes in how the unit functions, he probably b.s the Lt. who doesn't really understand what goes on.
Sgt Jaeger was assigned to the Training Division / running the range for firearms training and department qualifications for several years, till he got reassigned because of the people he pissed off and now he got assigned to Firearms, feels he has all this power again.
Post by: GlockNewb on December 22, 2015, 07:25:08 PM
Post by: mrgaf on December 22, 2015, 09:04:32 PM
Post by: dogman on December 22, 2015, 09:10:52 PM
Is HRA doing anything?Yes
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=20866.0
Post by: HiCarry on December 23, 2015, 12:46:16 PM
It seems that someone at HPD was getting tired of looking through the medical records for any mental issues. That person probably complained because he/she complained that their job was overwhelming and hard. Oh boo hoo. Just do your job.I don't know about you, but I am VERY uncomfortable at having HPD review my medical records, for any reason, let alone trying to interpret the medical language to make some determination about my mental fitness to own a firearm. That, to me is very, very scary.
It shouldn't be the job of some junior HPD officer to read complex medical records, interpret medical terminology, and judge mental health treatment records...it is way, way, way beyond their scope of expertise and has resulted in folks getting denied a PTA because they did things like seek grief counseling after the death of a family member or taking their child to a mental health appointment.
Post by: HiCarry on December 23, 2015, 12:51:18 PM
Yes
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=20866.0
HRA has been working with both Kaiser and HPD for some time to get this straightened out. Unfortunately, HRA holds little bargaining power with either Kaiser or HPD. Both think they can make up policy and procedures without due consideration of legal constraints (HPD) or patient concerns over their medical records or insurance coverage. Based on those unsuccessful discussions, it would appear a legal action would be our most useful approach. Which is why folks with Kaiser who have had problems really need to contact Mr. Holcomb.
Post by: stangzilla on December 23, 2015, 12:56:57 PM
Received this new note from HPD the morning of 12/17/2015. Note the word changing from their previous request.
thats very interesting since a doctor from Kaiser is writing a note, and that's against Kaiser policy.
they dont like their staff going against their company policy.
when they have a letter that may be leagally binding, they have a prepared letter that they send out and its all the same.
if HPD is changing their policy, who's to say that when i go in next week for example, now the policy is changed again.
its like it changes like the tradewinds. who really knows what to expect anymore.
Post by: Dumbgun on December 23, 2015, 05:40:37 PM
thats very interesting since a doctor from Kaiser is writing a note, and that's against Kaiser policy.I shit you not! that is my PCP. the one who told me I should take up hunting for my health. Yet, would not sign my letter. Emailed him to ask if kaisers allowing this and if he would sign off on me. Still waiting. Will cut and paste response here if I get one. Unbelievable. Right back where I started from and I'm out a boatload of cash that I cannot spare right now.
they dont like their staff going against their company policy.
when they have a letter that may be leagally binding, they have a prepared letter that they send out and its all the same.
if HPD is changing their policy, who's to say that when i go in next week for example, now the policy is changed again.
its like it changes like the tradewinds. who really knows what to expect anymore.
Post by: Q on December 23, 2015, 05:47:27 PM
I shit you not! that is my PCP. the one who told me I should take up hunting for my health. Yet, would not sign my letter. Emailed him to ask if kaisers allowing this and if he would sign off on me. Still waiting. Will cut and paste response here if I get one. Unbelievable. Right back where I started from and I'm out a boatload of cash that I cannot spare right now.
Did you try reaching out to national mainstream media?
Post by: GlockNewb on December 23, 2015, 06:22:58 PM
I'm not sure which thread mentioned a "guinea pig", but I'm willing to try, only because I can't spare the money for a different doctor's evaluation anyway.
Post by: Dumbgun on December 23, 2015, 09:32:18 PM
Received this new note from HPD the morning of 12/17/2015. Note the word changing from their previous request.I informed my kaiser PCP who's name appears on this sample letter. This is is response to HPD violating DR/Patient confidentiality. Anybody have HOLCOMB's Email? Please email this info to him. I have the phone number, not the email address. Evidence that HPD is out of control and doing whatever they want.
Cut and pasted in its entirety from my Kaiser account.
Received:
12/23/2015 8:45 PM HST
Hello Mr.XXXXXXX,
Thank you for the information. I was shocked and dismayed to find out HPD is handing out a confidential letter I wrote for a patient on 12/02/2015. This letter was not even meant to allow a firearms permit to be obtained, and was only meant to inform HPD that the person requesting it had no evidence of mental illness (as HPD had requested to know). The following day (12/03/2015), Kaiser advised the doctors in our Waipio clinic that we would in no way be allowed to ever produce a letter that could lead to a person possibly obtaining a firearms permit. Little did I know that my letter, typed out the day before this announcement by Kaiser, would be used in the way I never intended, as well as released for all to see.
The person on whose behalf I wrote the letter, even with his identification 'blacked out', has stated formally to me that the release of my letter to the public is a breach of patient-doctor confidentiality, of which I am in agreement.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Shun MD
Post by: Dumbgun on December 23, 2015, 09:37:52 PM
Did you try reaching out to national mainstream media?
[/quot
I personally emailed fox news two days ago. Have not heard anything yet. I even threw in info about the chief being investigated by the feds. No response yet. Will post here if I get one. Was watching fox today and they did a story about Virginia I believe denying reciprocity to out of state CCW owners. I was hoping they would mention our fight. Working on a letter to the City's corporation counsel.
Post by: WayneN on December 23, 2015, 10:42:26 PM
I informed my kaiser PCP who's name appears on this sample letter. This is is response to HPD violating DR/Patient confidentiality. Anybody have HOLCOMB's Email? Please email this info to him. I have the phone number, not the email address. Evidence that HPD is out of control and doing whatever they want.
Cut and pasted in its entirety from my Kaiser account.
Received:
12/23/2015 8:45 PM HST
Hello Mr.XXXXXXX,
Thank you for the information. I was shocked and dismayed to find out HPD is handing out a confidential letter I wrote for a patient on 12/02/2015. This letter was not even meant to allow a firearms permit to be obtained, and was only meant to inform HPD that the person requesting it had no evidence of mental illness (as HPD had requested to know). The following day (12/03/2015), Kaiser advised the doctors in our Waipio clinic that we would in no way be allowed to ever produce a letter that could lead to a person possibly obtaining a firearms permit. Little did I know that my letter, typed out the day before this announcement by Kaiser, would be used in the way I never intended, as well as released for all to see.
The person on whose behalf I wrote the letter, even with his identification 'blacked out', has stated formally to me that the release of my letter to the public is a breach of patient-doctor confidentiality, of which I am in agreement.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Shun MD
I was also given Dr. Shun's short form letter from HPD. However, In my opinion if we all review the letter dated December 2, 2015. Simply put, the letter simply states "no history of prior drug abuse, alcohol abuse, or mental illness". If we examine our Kaiser Certificate of Insurance and Kaiser's Covered Services #18 (substance abuse), #19 (mental illness) #31 (Serious Mental Illness); diagnosis, evaluation and treatment. So there is consistency. Subsequently Kaiser retains our medical records of an Electronic Medical Records (EMR) system (Straub has same software package). Then with our authorization (when we fill out the HPD permit application) a physician can review and release a medical clearance letter (if we pass). Hence Dr. Suhn is not in violation of any patient-doctor confidentiality (HIPPA violation). Working in healthcare for over 30+ years and required to be certified on the HIPPA law / violation training I would push back on Kaiser Regional implying that Dr. Suhn violated the HIPPA law since we (again) authorized release of our own medical records. In addition, no where in the short form letter does it state "obtaining a firearms permit", again letter simply states "no history of prior drug abuse, alcohol abuse, or mental illness"...which I believe is same verbage used for medical clearances for certain job applications. If we were follow the thought process for the aforementioned reply by Dr. Suhn / Kaiser Hawaii Regional should not be in any position to provide medical clearances...period. Hence, the argument of using a medical clearance letter to "possibly obtaining a firearms permit" is rather weak and subjective. I guess I don't "get it"...I presume I was not afforded the opportunity to attend a quality institution of higher education (i.e. Ivy League) so my attempt to utilize logic may be construed suspect(?).
By the way, I have reached out to Mr. Holcomb and kept a detailed paper trail on my efforts to secure my gun permit / medical clearance letter. Running parallel to this, I plan to file a complaint on the aforementioned Covered Services and not having an authorized review and medical clearance letter provided with Kaiser Regional and/or Corporate. Running parallel to this all of this, I will be reaching out to Dr. that was recommended to review and provide medical clearance letter. Good Luck to all in your endeavors and a "Merry Christmas!"....keep a Positive Attitude!
Post by: Q on December 23, 2015, 11:05:52 PM
Did you try reaching out to national mainstream media?
[/quot
I personally emailed fox news two days ago. Have not heard anything yet. I even threw in info about the chief being investigated by the feds. No response yet. Will post here if I get one. Was watching fox today and they did a story about Virginia I believe denying reciprocity to out of state CCW owners. I was hoping they would mention our fight. Working on a letter to the City's corporation counsel.
try and contact infowars.
Usually if the story is big enough, Fox will pull material that infowars originally covered.
Post by: Aiea78 on December 23, 2015, 11:28:54 PM
Post by: suka on December 23, 2015, 11:48:52 PM
Its 6 month now on Pureta en banc with 2 more hearing scheduled in Jan 16' on other issue.
Post by: HiCarry on December 24, 2015, 10:19:24 AM
I informed my kaiser PCP who's name appears on this sample letter. This is is response to HPD violating DR/Patient confidentiality. Anybody have HOLCOMB's Email? Please email this info to him. I have the phone number, not the email address. Evidence that HPD is out of control and doing whatever they want.
Cut and pasted in its entirety from my Kaiser account.
Received:
12/23/2015 8:45 PM HST
Hello Mr.XXXXXXX,
Thank you for the information. I was shocked and dismayed to find out HPD is handing out a confidential letter I wrote for a patient on 12/02/2015. This letter was not even meant to allow a firearms permit to be obtained, and was only meant to inform HPD that the person requesting it had no evidence of mental illness (as HPD had requested to know). The following day (12/03/2015), Kaiser advised the doctors in our Waipio clinic that we would in no way be allowed to ever produce a letter that could lead to a person possibly obtaining a firearms permit. Little did I know that my letter, typed out the day before this announcement by Kaiser, would be used in the way I never intended, as well as released for all to see.
The person on whose behalf I wrote the letter, even with his identification 'blacked out', has stated formally to me that the release of my letter to the public is a breach of patient-doctor confidentiality, of which I am in agreement.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Shun MD
His website has a message system: http://www.877duioahu.com/index.html
Post by: HiCarry on December 24, 2015, 10:41:00 AM
I informed my kaiser PCP who's name appears on this sample letter. This is is response to HPD violating DR/Patient confidentiality. Anybody have HOLCOMB's Email? Please email this info to him. I have the phone number, not the email address. Evidence that HPD is out of control and doing whatever they want.
I don't believe HPD violated any HIPAA laws. HIPAA only pertains to "covered entities" and their business associates (BA). Covered entities are your healthcare providers and systems. BA are those non-covered entities (such as insurance companies) that work with covered entities and handle protected information (such as your medical records). Once you sign the release and the records are in the custody of HPD, those records are no longer covered under HIPAA. Which is one of many reasons I have a real problem with Kaiser sending over entire medical records rather than a summary or a letter stating no disqualifying conditions.
More information can be obtained here if you have any questions: http://www.hhs.gov/hipaa
Post by: dzine808 on December 24, 2015, 12:09:40 PM
Post by: GlockNewb on December 24, 2015, 03:18:12 PM
Yup, went to Security Equipment today to buy a G19 and was asked about my medical provider. Told them Kaiser and got a big "Uh-oh!" Long story short, I didn't purchase the pistol and called Kaiser. Apparently, they (Kaiser) CAN'T provide the necessary information to HPD for a mental evaluation. I can see a behavioral doctor at Kaiser, but they still won't sign. Kaiser pointing fingers at HPD and HPD is pointing fingers at Kaiser. But a friend of mine with HMSA bought his G19 just fine.....SIGHHH ...#byekaiser :crazy:
You're kidding?...wow, this'll blow your mind then. I went to apply for my Glock permit per outside advice I was given, full on expecting to receive a copy of the "we need you to go to Kaiser and get this signed" letter, and leading to my eventual permit denial.
TOTAL 180! They gave me all of the same paperwork I used to apply for my long gun permit back in October (the firearm info form, medical information waiver, etc.) INCLUDING the direct-from-Kaiser form asking them to release medical information (and I read the text on it) "for the purpose of obtaining a handgun". Yes, I was shocked. The bald-head officer who handed me my forms said he was shocked...from what he says, Kaiser is only concerned about people who have had past histories of mental issues that would prevent them from owning a firearm. My guess, since I had an active long gun permit dated October 2015, I was in the clear.
I'll report back when I go to pick up my permit and handgun first week of January. I'm staying cautiously optimistic...but I'm fully prepared for disappointment.
Post by: dzine808 on December 24, 2015, 04:00:26 PM
I hope you do get your permit though. Get back to me if you do. Maybe I'll chance it or maybe I'll end up back with HMSA since they'll sign pretty much anything
Post by: GlockNewb on December 24, 2015, 04:17:44 PM
LOL. Security Equipment seemed pessimistic about me getting any type of medical "determination " form from Kaiser. Told me straight , to go and see an outside Psychiatrist. Kaiser wouldn't even pay for my evaluation outside of Kaiser coverage. Crazy! So my G19 would cost about $1200 when its all said and done. Well...that's if they accept my psychiatric evaluation. Hahaha!
I hope you do get your permit though. Get back to me if you do. Maybe I'll chance it or maybe I'll end up back with HMSA since they'll sign pretty much anything
Oh yeah, I will definitely be keeping this forum up-to-date with my handgun acquisition journey. I'm a first-time gun owner, so hopefully my fresh-eyes experience will be educational for the community as a whole.
Side note: been with Kaiser since birth, but they have lost my business and I will promptly be switching to HMSA come next enrollment period.
Post by: stangzilla on December 24, 2015, 04:45:54 PM
Funny thing is no kaiser doctor ever sees that form from hpd
It goes to a clerk in records department and they inform hpd if you saw a psychologist for any reason
Hpd then makes the call if you are red flagged or not
Again, no kaiser doctor ever sees that form from hpd
Post by: BLKDRGN on December 24, 2015, 06:36:27 PM
Post by: ren on December 24, 2015, 07:01:37 PM
We were at the station today and one of the cops told us starting today, 12/24/2015, they do not require a Dr. note. Call them or go down to verify just in case.
is this a trial period? :shake: :rofl:
Post by: Q on December 25, 2015, 01:35:12 AM
We were at the station today and one of the cops told us starting today, 12/24/2015, they do not require a Dr. note. Call them or go down to verify just in case.
Starting today for everyone or just for the kaiser people?
Post by: Heavies on December 25, 2015, 06:31:37 AM
Starting today for everyone or just for the kaiser people?I believe it was only Kaiser and Straub people that need a "note" in the first place.
Post by: dzine808 on December 25, 2015, 12:32:21 PM
Post by: WayneN on December 26, 2015, 01:32:48 PM
By the way, I have shared our dilemma of securing permits with a number of folks and below is a response by an acquaintance who left HI for WA....grew up here his entire adult life and moved to WA about 8 years ago. He's doing well and will retire and stay in WA. He laughs at what's been going on here and just reminds me that our ridiculous challenges are an good example of why he and his Family left Hawaii.
According to him, there has been an increase in the number of conceal and carry applications "...130 people a day have been applying and almost 500,000 folks in WA have it. that's like a third of all Hawaii residents thought you might be interested how it works here" ... I guess he means America... ::)
You can share this with other discussion threads on Conceal and Carry if you'd like
http://www.southsound911.org/153/Concealed-Pistol-Licenses
"Happy New Year!"
Post by: dstyles on December 26, 2015, 02:51:29 PM
Post by: dzine808 on December 26, 2015, 05:34:10 PM
Post by: Shoboshi on December 26, 2015, 10:28:42 PM
Post by: whynow? on December 27, 2015, 07:01:19 AM
We were at the station today and one of the cops told us starting today, 12/24/2015, they do not require a Dr. note. Call them or go down to verify just in case.Even if this is corrected now, if I was with Kaiser/Straub and IF given the opportunity to change, I would switch to HMSA or another plan that doesn't play games with people's lives.
My opinion only.
Post by: Heavies on December 27, 2015, 08:02:51 AM
Whole thing starts right before Black Friday, then ends day before Christmas. Some of the best sales of the year during that period. Feel like a big sham, it definitely stopped me from purchasing.So convenient. LGS(plural) should join in the suit.
Post by: sikryd on December 27, 2015, 04:39:29 PM
Even if this is corrected now, if I was with Kaiser/Straub and IF given the opportunity to change, I would switch to HMSA or another plan that doesn't play games with people's lives.
My opinion only.
It is not a Kaiser or Straub problem, it is HPD. I work for Kaiser, have for 15 years, and I have spoken to numerous parties including our lawyers about this. Kaiser's policy has always (let me repeat that ALWAYS) been to send over the medical records requested to HPD just like we signed for them. HPD used to review them, and now feels like making Kaiser and Straub provide a letter attesting to your mental status. HPD has decided to change the process, not Kaiser and Straub. Stop bashing your medical insurer when the douchebags in question work at HPD. I have also spoken to the Dr. who wrote the letter HPD was giving out. He never gave permission for this letter to be passed around by HPD, and as of last week has or will be sending a cease and desist to them.
Post by: whynow? on December 27, 2015, 08:44:31 PM
It is not a Kaiser or Straub problem, it is HPD. I work for Kaiser, have for 15 years, and I have spoken to numerous parties including our lawyers about this. Kaiser's policy has always (let me repeat that ALWAYS) been to send over the medical records requested to HPD just like we signed for them. HPD used to review them, and now feels like making Kaiser and Straub provide a letter attesting to your mental status. HPD has decided to change the process, not Kaiser and Straub. Stop bashing your medical insurer when the douchebags in question work at HPD. I have also spoken to the Dr. who wrote the letter HPD was giving out. He never gave permission for this letter to be passed around by HPD, and as of last week has or will be sending a cease and desist to them.So how is changing insurers bashing, just because you work for them? People should have a choice and if not happy with the service should be free to move. Nobody owes Kaiser/Straub.
Post by: mauidog on December 27, 2015, 09:23:27 PM
So how is changing insurers bashing, just because you work for them? People should have a choice and if not happy with the service should be free to move. Nobody owes Kaiser/Straub.
If you change insurers to avoid the HPD letter snafu, you are avoiding the problem, not fixing it.
If HPD gets away with requiring this letter from Kaiser and Straub members, who's to say they won't make it an across-the-board requirement for all members, even those who don't have insurance?
If you change insurers for the letter issue alone, then you are giving into HPD.
JMHO.
Post by: Q on December 27, 2015, 09:28:39 PM
It is not a Kaiser or Straub problem, it is HPD. I work for Kaiser, have for 15 years, and I have spoken to numerous parties including our lawyers about this. Kaiser's policy has always (let me repeat that ALWAYS) been to send over the medical records requested to HPD just like we signed for them. HPD used to review them, and now feels like making Kaiser and Straub provide a letter attesting to your mental status. HPD has decided to change the process, not Kaiser and Straub. Stop bashing your medical insurer when the douchebags in question work at HPD. I have also spoken to the Dr. who wrote the letter HPD was giving out. He never gave permission for this letter to be passed around by HPD, and as of last week has or will be sending a cease and desist to them.
Actually, it is both HPD and Kaiser.
Firearm disqualification for medical reasons is defined right there in the law, so how can Kaiser say they cannot make a determination? Its pretty commonsense if someone has an organic brain disease, mental disorder or addiction that is serious enough to warrant an opinion from a physician that the individual is not mentally fit to own firearms.
Further more, a doctor is not held liable for issuing a letter for an individual, so long as they do not do so with malicious intent. This is defined in HRS 134-18.
I call bullshit on Kaiser, just like I call bullshit on HPD for most of their firearm policies.
Post by: edster48 on December 28, 2015, 06:11:19 AM
Actually, it is both HPD and Kaiser.
Firearm disqualification for medical reasons is defined right there in the law, so how can Kaiser say they cannot make a determination? Its pretty commonsense if someone has an organic brain disease, mental disorder or addiction that is serious enough to warrant an opinion from a physician that the individual is not mentally fit to own firearms.
Further more, a doctor is not held liable for issuing a letter for an individual, so long as they do not do so with malicious intent. This is defined in HRS 134-18.
I call bullshit on Kaiser, just like I call bullshit on HPD for most of their firearm policies.
Actually, it's not Kaiser/Straub. It was a change in HPD policy, and an illegal one at that.
The law does not read that a medical provider must "Make a determination" as to a persons mental fitness to own a firearm. It says they must "Provide information relating to the persons medical history" relevant to their mental state. It's quite a leap from "providing information" via medical records to "making a determination", which would require a mental fitness exam.
The reality is that a persons mental state can, and will, change. Either over time, or due to some outside influence, and it may not be apparent to a persons physician, that they may see once a year. HRS 134-18 notwithstanding, and due the current state of our judicial system, a suit could be brought against the doctor and the provider. Whether it would stand up in court is irrelevant, publicly, the damage would be done and the provider and doctor could suffer damage to their reputation and loss of income because of it.
IMO, this was an attempt by the powers that be, through HPD, to force the medical providers to commit to performing a mental evaluation without having to go through the "hassle" of changing the law to require said evaluation. Something they know would face stiff opposition, amongst a host of other problems. Had they been successful with Kaiser/Straub it's a sure bet that they would've expanded that "requirement" to the rest of us in due course.
Mark my words, we WILL see legislation to this effect introduced this year or the next, if hasn't been already.
Post by: Heavies on December 28, 2015, 07:46:58 AM
Actually, it's not Kaiser/Straub. It was a change in HPD policy, and an illegal one at that.THIS
The law does not read that a medical provider must "Make a determination" as to a persons mental fitness to own a firearm. It says they must "Provide information relating to the persons medical history" relevant to their mental state. It's quite a leap from "providing information" via medical records to "making a determination", which would require a mental fitness exam.
The reality is that a persons mental state can, and will, change. Either over time, or due to some outside influence, and it may not be apparent to a persons physician, that they may see once a year. HRS 134-18 notwithstanding, and due the current state of our judicial system, a suit could be brought against the doctor and the provider. Whether it would stand up in court is irrelevant, publicly, the damage would be done and the provider and doctor could suffer damage to their reputation and loss of income because of it.
IMO, this was an attempt by the powers that be, through HPD, to force the medical providers to commit to performing a mental evaluation without having to go through the "hassle" of changing the law to require said evaluation. Something they know would face stiff opposition, amongst a host of other problems. Had they been successful with Kaiser/Straub it's a sure bet that they would've expanded that "requirement" to the rest of us in due course.
Mark my words, we WILL see legislation to this effect introduced this year or the next, if hasn't been already.
and just wait and see WHO will be doing "evaluations".... I can see it now, they'll find the most anti-gun politically correct headshrinker that shall do all evaluations. See where your rights are after that!
Post by: j10nke on December 28, 2015, 07:55:23 AM
Post by: Heavies on December 28, 2015, 07:56:45 AM
- If you are caught up in this mess, contact Mr. Holcomb
For everyone else-
- If you are not registered to vote, get registered and VOTE. Vote for 2A candidates, make that your number one issue. Every thing in this state is so effed up already anyway, all other issues wouldn't matter who you vote for. MAKE 2A #1.
- Start calling or writing all your reps IMMEDIATELY and REGULARLY. Let them know 2A is your issue, and will not accept any infringements of your RIGHTS. Legislative session starts January 20, 2016, 10am!
Post by: dzine808 on December 28, 2015, 08:01:06 AM
Post by: whynow? on December 28, 2015, 08:24:05 AM
If you change insurers to avoid the HPD letter snafu, you are avoiding the problem, not fixing it.I see the problem as not being able to name one primary doctor on the medical form for a permit (correct me if wrong). The form should be addressed to your doctor only and not sent to admin people. My doctor belongs to a clinic but I list his name. If I put the clinic, it would probably go to some clerk who would refer this to their supervisor who may send HPD a letter saying can't determine. Also I don't belong to this clinic, it's only a place which provides an office for my doctor and I'm not obligated to them. With the previous and possibly new attacks to legal gun ownership, I feel a person wanting to acquire needs to take out variables that may prevent his permit, like not being able to identify your doctor who knows your history. Of course in the future the state's laws and HPDs policies may change for the worse but this is what's out there now.
If HPD gets away with requiring this letter from Kaiser and Straub members, who's to say they won't make it an across-the-board requirement for all members, even those who don't have insurance?
If you change insurers for the letter issue alone, then you are giving into HPD.
JMHO.
I'm not an expert on the permitting system, but have been getting permits since HPD was in the old Sears building.
Post by: edster48 on December 28, 2015, 08:48:25 AM
Let's not forget about the people red flagged by Kaiser for visits that aren't disqualifying. The blame goes to both. I've also noticed that a lot of people who work for Kaiser become die hard Kaiser fans. It's a job not a sports team
Kaiser didn't "Red Flag" anybody. They simply provided the information to HPD. They are required to do this by law, especially if the information is in regards to the persons "mental state".
The fact that someone had counseling for grief, anger issues or even bedwetting when they were 7 can be construed to have had an effect on their mental state.
Any determination was made by HPD in light of the information they received.
We all know that most of this stuff is BS, especially if it occurred when they were children, but I expect we'll see more of it in the coming years as people were caught up the "psychobabble" craze of the last 20 years or so. Where any time you "felt" something, everyone thought it was best if they sought out psychiatric care or counseling of one kind or another.
As far as the government is concerned, we're all crazy. Except when they need money or votes.......
Post by: GZire on December 28, 2015, 09:17:35 AM
Okay, I just contacted HPD Firearms Division this morning regarding the situation about "Kaiser-gate" (see what I did there ;D ) and there is no longer an issue with it. You can go down and apply for a gun permit...so I'll see all you 2AHawaii members down there later today LOL!!! Good luck and Happy Holidays all!! :shaka: :shaka: :shaka:
Can you elaborate on this? What do you mean this is no longer an issue?
Post by: dzine808 on December 28, 2015, 09:26:19 AM
Can you elaborate on this? What do you mean this is no longer an issue?
Well, I called HPD Firearms and told them that I was planning on purchasing a pistol, but the dealer (Security Equipment) informed me that there was a dispute about Kaiser and Straub releasing medical information. Lady on the phone told me "There is no longer a problem and that it has been resolved. So you can come by and apply for your gun permit". So just passing on what I was told in case any of us under Kaiser or Straub were wondering if they were going to be buy anything in the near future
Post by: mauidog on December 28, 2015, 09:53:38 AM
Kaiser didn't "Red Flag" anybody. They simply provided the information to HPD. They are required to do this by law, especially if the information is in regards to the persons "mental state".
The fact that someone had counseling for grief, anger issues or even bedwetting when they were 7 can be construed to have had an effect on their mental state.
Any determination was made by HPD in light of the information they received.
We all know that most of this stuff is BS, especially if it occurred when they were children, but I expect we'll see more of it in the coming years as people were caught up the "psychobabble" craze of the last 20 years or so. Where any time you "felt" something, everyone thought it was best if they sought out psychiatric care or counseling of one kind or another.
As far as the government is concerned, we're all crazy. Except when they need money or votes.......
If the health care providers are not qualified to determine a patient's suitability to own firearms,
and HPD is not qualified to make a determination using a patient's medical history records,
then who IS qualified to use our medical records to make such a determination?
I believe what we are seeing here is the attempt to implement a requirement which was never feasible in the first place.
The law was written broadly to give HPD access to medical records for purposes of evaluating a person's mental health. Everyone knew the police are not qualified for that.
Once the police finally realized they are not qualified, they tried to use policy to force the healthcare providers to make the determination for them. Kaiser and Straub appear to be only two (first two?) to push back.
This is the result of bad laws being implemented with no optimal solution possible. It's a catch-22 .... neither side is qualified to make the determination, HPD for lack of medical training and the HMO for lack of willingness to make a determination without a full psych eval of the applicant.
Where does that leave us? Either the law will be changed to require a psych eval for all permit applicants, or the City & County will have to hire medical experts to review medical records and conduct interviews to make a determination.
We have crossed over from "innocent until proven guilty (or crazy)," to "you must prove you are not guilty (crazy) before you may exercise this God-given Constitutional Right."
Post by: dstyles on December 28, 2015, 10:32:36 AM
Confirmed by OGC as well.
Post by: Sodie on December 28, 2015, 10:37:01 AM
If the health care providers are not qualified to determine a patient's suitability to own firearms,
and HPD is not qualified to make a determination using a patient's medical history records,
then who IS qualified to use our medical records to make such a determination?
I believe what we are seeing here is the attempt to implement a requirement which was never feasible in the first place.
The law was written broadly to give HPD access to medical records for purposes of evaluating a person's mental health. Everyone knew the police are not qualified for that.
Once the police finally realized they are not qualified, they tried to use policy to force the healthcare providers to make the determination for them. Kaiser and Straub appear to be only two (first two?) to push back.
This is the result of bad laws being implemented with no optimal solution possible. It's a catch-22 .... neither side is qualified to make the determination, HPD for lack of medical training and the HMO for lack of willingness to make a determination without a full psych eval of the applicant.
Where does that leave us? Either the law will be changed to require a psych eval for all permit applicants, or the City & County will have to hire medical experts to review medical records and conduct interviews to make a determination.
We have crossed over from "innocent until proven guilty (or crazy)," to "you must prove you are not guilty (crazy) before you may exercise this God-given Constitutional Right."
EXACLY RIGHT. I wrote pretty much the same things, except using more words and less clearly. The solution isn't with HPD or Kaiser/Straub, it comes with electing better legislators and executives.
Post by: HiCarry on December 28, 2015, 01:53:50 PM
Oh yeah, I will definitely be keeping this forum up-to-date with my handgun acquisition journey. I'm a first-time gun owner, so hopefully my fresh-eyes experience will be educational for the community as a whole.You should call Kaiser's customer service and ask to speak to someone in administration or patient/customer satisfaction and tell them you're switching plans and why. Maybe if enough folks do this Kaiser may get the hint that this is costing them money.....
Side note: been with Kaiser since birth, but they have lost my business and I will promptly be switching to HMSA come next enrollment period.
Post by: HiCarry on December 28, 2015, 01:59:27 PM
I will be attempting to call the Firearms Section prior to making an attempt to stand in line and will let you know what happens. I did fill out my application on December 11, 2015 and process stalled after not being able to secure a medical clearance letter. Application set to expire on December 31, 2015, if no resolution then I need to reapply. I hope that my visit to Behavioral Science to work out an Rx to help with smoking cessation (this visit was approved by PCP). Tried one Rx and it kept me awake and I ended up with what I started with Zyban (which has same characteristics as an anti-depressant).
Zyban is an antidepressant that is also used for smoking cessation and is likely the reason your chart was flagged. If this was the case, and I strongly suspect it was, then it further highlights why HPD is wholly unqualified to make any determination after reviewing medical records and why Kaiser needs to step up to the plate and serve it's customers by either not responding to the request (thereby allowing the process to continue) or to do an inhouse review with qualified medical professionals that can make that determination.
Post by: dzine808 on December 28, 2015, 02:05:07 PM
Post by: HiCarry on December 28, 2015, 02:05:54 PM
It is not a Kaiser or Straub problem, it is HPD. I work for Kaiser, have for 15 years, and I have spoken to numerous parties including our lawyers about this. Kaiser's policy has always (let me repeat that ALWAYS) been to send over the medical records requested to HPD just like we signed for them. HPD used to review them, and now feels like making Kaiser and Straub provide a letter attesting to your mental status. HPD has decided to change the process, not Kaiser and Straub. Stop bashing your medical insurer when the douchebags in question work at HPD. I have also spoken to the Dr. who wrote the letter HPD was giving out. He never gave permission for this letter to be passed around by HPD, and as of last week has or will be sending a cease and desist to them.You are incorrect. Kaiser only started sending over entire medical records after they said they would stop issuing an "opinion" on any member's fitness to own a firearm and so they could state they were complying with the medical record release from HPD. They initiated a process that caused HPD to have to think about what they could do to get that information. Both parties are, IMHO, responsible for the problem, but it was Kaiser that started the ball rolling and HPD that felt they were forced to get something from Kaiser despite the fact that no response from any other HCP would not be interpreted as a denial and halt the permitting process.
Post by: mauidog on December 28, 2015, 02:36:16 PM
You are incorrect. Kaiser only started sending over entire medical records after they said they would stop issuing an "opinion" on any member's fitness to own a firearm and so they could state they were complying with the medical record release from HPD. They initiated a process that caused HPD to have to think about what they could do to get that information. Both parties are, IMHO, responsible for the problem, but it was Kaiser that started the ball rolling and HPD that felt they were forced to get something from Kaiser despite the fact that no response from any other HCP would not be interpreted as a denial and halt the permitting process.
I'm sure you're right that Kaiser made a change and HPD reacted. But the reaction is what's scary and wrong. Instead of the State/HPD dealing with the HMO directly like the law requires, HPD created a hardship on the HMO members applying for permits.
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see that Kaiser did anything that violated the law.
HPD thought they could get the members to (1) give them a letter that Kaiser would not or, (2) pressure Kaiser into reversing course and start issuing the letters again.
Regardless of what started all this, HPD is the side that created new policies that ignored the law and inflicted damages upon those trying to exercise their Constitutionally protected right.
Again, if Kaiser changed their policy, it was within the scope of existing law. Kaiser is under no legal obligation to comply with HPD policies. What HPD decided to do exceeded the scope of the law.
Forcing the applicant to go out of network to get a psych clearance with specific wording and pay out-of-pocket falls under no part of the law.
I truly hope those who paid for a letter will file a claim with HPD and the city for reimbursement, including time lost from work. We should not allow them to avoid consequences when they violate the rights of tax payers and gun owners.
Post by: HiCarry on December 28, 2015, 02:58:45 PM
I'm sure you're right that Kaiser made a change and HPD reacted. But the reaction is what's scary and wrong. Instead of the State/HPD dealing with the HMO directly like the law requires, HPD created a hardship on the HMO members applying for permits.
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see that Kaiser did anything that violated the law.
HPD thought they could get the members to (1) give them a letter that Kaiser would not or, (2) pressure Kaiser into reversing course and start issuing the letters again.
Regardless of what started all this, HPD is the side that created new policies that ignored the law and inflicted damages upon those trying to exercise their Constitutionally protected right.
Again, if Kaiser changed their policy, it was within the scope of existing law. Kaiser is under no legal obligation to comply with HPD policies. What HPD decided to do exceeded the scope of the law.
Forcing the applicant to go out of network to get a psych clearance with specific wording and pay out-of-pocket falls under no part of the law.
I truly hope those who paid for a letter will file a claim with HPD and the city for reimbursement, including time lost from work. We should not allow them to avoid consequences when they violate the rights of tax payers and gun owners.
Both sides have created the problem. HPD tried to implement a new "process" that it had no statutory authority to so.
Kaiser could have simply reviewed the medical records and sent in info only on those with disqualifying conditions, Since most people don't have any of these disqualifying conditions the vast majority of the requests received could have been "ignored" once a determination of no disqualifying conditions was made. And while you might favor an argument where HPD was the bigger transgressor, the fact that a health system sent entire volumes of medical records, (the release signed is not for your "medical records" but rather specific PHI related to any defined disqualifying conditions) knowing those records would, by the nature of the release to a non-covered entity, be "unprotected" by HIPAA, showed a major disregard for the privacy of their members and inserted someone's antigun beliefs into a process that had been mostly without difficulty (the bigger issue of registration and medical "clearance" aside for now...) until they began "rocking the boat."
Post by: mauidog on December 28, 2015, 03:15:04 PM
Both sides have created the problem. HPD tried to implement a new "process" that it had no statutory authority to so.
Kaiser could have simply reviewed the medical records and sent in info only on those with disqualifying conditions, Since most people don't have any of these disqualifying conditions the vast majority of the requests received could have been "ignored" once a determination of no disqualifying conditions was made. And while you might favor an argument where HPD was the bigger transgressor, the fact that a health system sent entire volumes of medical records, (the release signed is not for your "medical records" but rather specific PHI related to any defined disqualifying conditions) knowing those records would, by the nature of the release to a non-covered entity, be "unprotected" by HIPAA, showed a major disregard for the privacy of their members and inserted someone's antigun beliefs into a process that had been mostly without difficulty (the bigger issue of registration and medical "clearance" aside for now...) until they began "rocking the boat."
Yes, I'm very nervous about any of my records -- financial, medical or otherwise -- being copied totally and sent to another organization. Any agency that has my data has the ability to abuse, misuse or lose that data. The smaller the number of agencies holding my info, the better!
I don't think Kaiser had a problem reporting to HPD when a patient has had specifically relevant conditions or treatments. HPD could then require further evaluations before making a permit determination. I think Kaiser was uncomfortable making that determination and sending that to HPD when Kaiser has not evaluated the patient for firearms risk. Reporting the facts is fine. Drawing a conclusion is something totally different.
I wish I had more inside details into Kaiser's reasons for changing their process, but based on the information others have posted, what I have said is a reasonable synopsis.
I believe the clearance letters HPD required of recently erroneously flagged applicants started this. The clearance letter asks for a conclusion, not just medical details. Suddenly all Kaiser members applying for permits have to get the same letter signed? Too coincidental.
Post by: GZire on December 28, 2015, 04:12:23 PM
Well, I called HPD Firearms and told them that I was planning on purchasing a pistol, but the dealer (Security Equipment) informed me that there was a dispute about Kaiser and Straub releasing medical information. Lady on the phone told me "There is no longer a problem and that it has been resolved. So you can come by and apply for your gun permit". So just passing on what I was told in case any of us under Kaiser or Straub were wondering if they were going to be buy anything in the near future
Thank you for the explanation. Please follow up with us and let us know how the process turns out.................does the lady mean the process is resolved in that you get the doctor's letter or that we go back to the old status quo?
Post by: dzine808 on December 28, 2015, 04:17:34 PM
Thank you for the explanation. Please follow up with us and let us know how the process turns out.................does the lady mean the process is resolved in that you get the doctor's letter or that we go back to the old status quo?
Back to the old way, except there was a special "Kaiser" form that you, yourself, needed to fill out. Simple sign and date. Oh and right thumb finger printing as well. I chummed it up with some guys in line that spent $200 to get a psych evaluation, but I informed them they didn't need to and seemed pretty miffed that they spent that money. I just told them that it was good they had it and if HPD did want it, then they'd actually have it on hand. But HPD didn't ask and so they're out a few hundred LOL! But other then that...good to go :shaka: :shaka: :shaka:
Post by: stangzilla on December 28, 2015, 04:58:23 PM
now that it is back to the old way, HPD can still red flag you for whatever reason.
no Kaiser doctor ever sees the HPD request, it goes to their records department, then records dept informs HPD if you went to behavioral health at some time in your life for any reason at all.
HPD will make the call if you are red flagged or not
then you have to get a letter of clearance for something you were never denied for
its still major BS.
even in the old procedure, HPD can still do whatever they want and red flag you, we are still at their mercy
HPD will never tell you what you are red flagged for, but when you do get red flagged, you are red flagged for life!
who really knows what goes on between HPD and Kaiser.
maybe if they just feel like it, HPD will red flag you.
Post by: Heavies on December 28, 2015, 05:24:48 PM
i agree both Kaiser and HPD are at fault, they both play a part in thisWondering if you ever contacted Mr. Holcomb about your flag. Wondering if you have no other recourse other than to accept the red flag and be doomed to seek eval every year from now till eternity? Is it like the "no fly list" where the secret back room panel selects you for the "list" where you have no hope to appeal, reprieve, or repeal, marked for life, like a branded criminal.
now that it is back to the old way, HPD can still red flag you for whatever reason.
no Kaiser doctor ever sees the HPD request, it goes to their records department, then records dept informs HPD if you went to behavioral health at some time in your life for any reason at all.
HPD will make the call if you are red flagged or not
then you have to get a letter of clearance for something you were never denied for
its still major BS.
even in the old procedure, HPD can still do whatever they want and red flag you, we are still at their mercy
HPD will never tell you what you are red flagged for, but when you do get red flagged, you are red flagged for life!
who really knows what goes on between HPD and Kaiser.
maybe if they just feel like it, HPD will red flag you.
Post by: stangzilla on December 28, 2015, 05:46:57 PM
However small that reason seems to me, it is a reason
There is something in my past which I feel shouldn't disqualify me, but realistically I can see where it can raise a flag.
After some digging into my records, I don't feel like my case in particular would undoubtedly help our cause.
But I will help in other ways if I can.
Post by: Sodie on December 28, 2015, 05:58:21 PM
...why Kaiser needs to step up to the plate and serve it's customers by either not responding to the request...I'm not sure they legally have that option.
Quote from: Hawaii Revised Statutes
[§134-3.5] Disclosure for firearm permit and registration purposes. A health care provider or public health authority shall disclose health information, including protected health care information, relating to an individual's mental health history, to the appropriate county chief of police in response to a request for the information from the chief of police; provided that:I'm not a lawyer, but this sounds to me like Kaiser "shall disclose," not "may or may not" disclose.
(1) The information shall be used only for the purpose of evaluating the individual's fitness to acquire or own a firearm; and
(2) The individual has signed a waiver permitting release of the health information for that purpose. [L 2001, c 252, §1]
The recent problem lies more with HPD than Kaiser, IMHO, since it sounds like Kaiser did what they were required to do under the law. HPD, having not read or understood the law, tried to enact a badly flawed policy. The problem is that I don't believe that ANYONE at HPD is qualified to determine whether someone has been diagnosed as having "a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders" (sic).
The root of the problem is THE LAW ITSELF. Is there a generally accepted legal and/or medical definition of what qualifies as a "significant"? Does anybody at HPD know what that definition is, if it does exist? Who at HPD reviews the medical information? What training and credentials do they have? Does this review, by an unelected HPD employee, constitute the "due process" required by the Fifth Amendment prior to depriving someone of a "liberty?"
Like Mauidog said, both Kaiser and HPD have been jammed in between a rock and a hard place by a very poorly written, ill-conceived law. The way to fix it is to change the law, and to do that, we have to change the lawmakers!
Post by: WayneN on December 28, 2015, 06:06:19 PM
I will be attempting to call the Firearms Section prior to making an attempt to stand in line and will let you know what happens. I did fill out my application on December 11, 2015 and process stalled after not being able to secure a medical clearance letter. Application set to expire on December 31, 2015, if no resolution then I need to reapply. I hope that my visit to Behavioral Science to work out an Rx to help with smoking cessation (this visit was approved by PCP). Tried one Rx and it kept me awake and I ended up with what I started with Zyban (which has same characteristics as an anti-depressant). I did end up quitting :) (so far 5 years!) and it is not easy as those who smoked will attest. We'll see what happens.
By the way, I have shared our dilemma of securing permits with a number of folks and below is a response by an acquaintance who left HI for WA....grew up here his entire adult life and moved to WA about 8 years ago. He's doing well and will retire and stay in WA. He laughs at what's been going on here and just reminds me that our ridiculous challenges are an good example of why he and his Family left Hawaii.
According to him, there has been an increase in the number of conceal and carry applications "...130 people a day have been applying and almost 500,000 folks in WA have it. that's like a third of all Hawaii residents thought you might be interested how it works here" ... I guess he means America... ::)
You can share this with other discussion threads on Conceal and Carry if you'd like
http://www.southsound911.org/153/Concealed-Pistol-Licenses
"Happy New Year!"
Update: Went down to HPD this a.m. at ~ 9:30 a.m. only one person ahead of me. When it was my turn I explained why I was there and was simply asked for my I.D. they looked thru a large stack of permits and said I was good to go! I would recommend that if you know of any Kaiser member who was attempting to get a medical clearance letter and was still looking to get down there and pick their permit up...time could be of the essence. My permit was set to expire on 12/31. Another acquaintance (a Kaiser member) was in line and he had a signed medical clearance letter from a licensed Psychologist I told him that no letter is now required but keep it handy just in case. There are those who still may not be aware of change back to what it was. Please get the word out so #1 They can stop their physician search #2 Get back in to pick up their permit which may be time sensitive.
Next Steps: In my opinion, I believe Kaiser opted not to respond like in the past and placed its' membership in a difficult, costly and "crazy making situation"...nix that...let's say no-win situation. I believe their Certificate of Insurance clearly states they provide "diagnosis, evaluation and treatment of substance abuse...mental illness and treatment of Serious Mental Illness"; Covered Services #18, #19 and #31. Hence, Kaiser should via their Electronic Medical Records (EMR) easily pull down and validate what HPD wanted all along. Note: This is why when you're in the exam room the Dr. doesn't have a huge file folder...he or she use the terminal to access what he or she needs...it's quite impressive. Keep in mind that I sometimes have to tell the Dr. to go look for something if he questions you about a condition. With that being said Kaiser did not provide those who went out-of-network what they paid for via their premium...a breach of contract. So I would recommend that a complaint be filed to be reimbursed for services rendered by outside physician. In addition, the argument could be made that while Kaiser provides a medical clearance letter for certain critical job applications, in this instance they did not provide same. In my opinion, this is discriminatory and contra to what we are suppose to expect regarding the 2nd amendment.
I will still be filing a complaint with the Kaiser - Hawaii Region (only Kaiser Region affected) and Kaiser - Corporate to voice my dissatisfaction along with several other decisions they made this past year that just doesn't sit right with me.
Again, get the word out to other Kaiser members who are may be affected by this and head off having to incur any further frustration and cost.
I apologize for the length of the message.
Post by: Scar16 on December 28, 2015, 07:08:28 PM
Btw I wouldn't trust Kaiser with anything, they have totally violated the hippa act with my medical records in the past when there was consent given.
Post by: WayneN on December 28, 2015, 08:54:42 PM
Zyban is an antidepressant that is also used for smoking cessation and is likely the reason your chart was flagged. If this was the case, and I strongly suspect it was, then it further highlights why HPD is wholly unqualified to make any determination after reviewing medical records and why Kaiser needs to step up to the plate and serve it's customers by either not responding to the request (thereby allowing the process to continue) or to do an inhouse review with qualified medical professionals that can make that determination.
Again, I went down to pick my permit this a.m. with the understanding that the medical clearance letter was not needed anymore. However, I expected that my visit to Behavioral Science to work on my Rx for smoking cessation would red flag and I would have to petition a waiver. So I gave them my I.D. and "lo and behold" my permit was pulled from the stack of permits and signed off and that was it...went to dealer and came back to register firearm...just wanted it done. Hope that other's will get their permits and enjoy the New Year! :) Good Luck!
Post by: Mr. Farknocker on December 28, 2015, 09:41:18 PM
Post by: suka on December 28, 2015, 10:16:46 PM
Post by: WayneN on December 28, 2015, 11:40:33 PM
I may have missed it in 17 pages of posts but what law obligates any health care provider to provide any information regarding a patient, let alone, an opinion concerning the qualifications of an individual with respect to possessing a firearm?
In my opinion, as it pertains to the medical clearance letter I believe what is being requested is a review of Electronic Medical Records (EMR) and a statement of whether or patient "had any prior or current history of mental illness, drug abuse or alcohol abuse." and not an opinion. The only part that I can see that would be an opinion would be "is fully capable of making his own medical decisions". However, that can be argued since mental competency needs to be disproved by the courts and then having someone assigned as a Guardian and/or granted Power of Attorney due to mental incompetency...which should show up in the medical records and if not, then the patient is capable of making his/her own medical decisions. Just to be safe, perhaps an attorney specializing in Family Law could confirm since they deal with mental competency issues. Medical practitioners walk a fine line and need to be careful on this sensitive subject of being mentally incompetent to avoid any potential litigation from a patient. Again, just my opinion.
Post by: Sodie on December 29, 2015, 08:56:31 AM
I may have missed it in 17 pages of posts but what law obligates any health care provider to provide any information regarding a patient, let alone, an opinion concerning the qualifications of an individual with respect to possessing a firearm?
Quote from: Hawaii Revised Statutes
[§134-3.5] Disclosure for firearm permit and registration purposes. A health care provider or public health authority shall disclose health information, including protected health care information, relating to an individual's mental health history, to the appropriate county chief of police in response to a request for the information from the chief of police; provided that:
(1) The information shall be used only for the purpose of evaluating the individual's fitness to acquire or own a firearm; and
(2) The individual has signed a waiver permitting release of the health information for that purpose. [L 2001, c 252, §1]
134-2(c) requires the applicant to sign the waiver.
Post by: Sodie on December 29, 2015, 09:07:41 AM
In my opinion, as it pertains to the medical clearance letter I believe what is being requested is a review of Electronic Medical Records (EMR) and a statement of whether or patient "had any prior or current history of mental illness, drug abuse or alcohol abuse." and not an opinion. The only part that I can see that would be an opinion would be "is fully capable of making his own medical decisions". However, that can be argued since mental competency needs to be disproved by the courts and then having someone assigned as a Guardian and/or granted Power of Attorney due to mental incompetency...which should show up in the medical records and if not, then the patient is capable of making his/her own medical decisions. Just to be safe, perhaps an attorney specializing in Family Law could confirm since they deal with mental competency issues. Medical practitioners walk a fine line and need to be careful on this sensitive subject of being mentally incompetent to avoid any potential litigation from a patient. Again, just my opinion.
As far as I can see, the law does not require "medical clearance letter." The law requires a health care provider to disclose, i.e. make known or reveal, information to HPD. I'm not a lawyer, but nothing I see in the HRS requires the provider to make a determination or render an opinion on the applicant's fitness to possess firearms. They have to make information available, but it's up to HPD to determine whether or not you're disqualified.
Does anyone know who at HPD reviews the records, what training they get, and what standards they use to decide qualification?
Post by: stangzilla on December 29, 2015, 11:50:29 AM
Post by: Sodie on December 29, 2015, 12:17:00 PM
does any other state require clearance from their doctor?
I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think this is an important point. The law DOES NOT require "clearance from your doctor." It requires your doctor to disclose mental health info to HPD. HPD makes the qualified/disqualified decision... based on what standard?
Post by: Q on December 29, 2015, 12:26:43 PM
Does anyone know who at HPD reviews the records, what training they get, and what standards they use to decide qualification?
They push button on a computer, and it does it for them.
Post by: stangzilla on December 29, 2015, 01:01:28 PM
I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think this is an important point. The law DOES NOT require "clearance from your doctor." It requires your doctor to disclose mental health info to HPD. HPD makes the qualified/disqualified decision... based on what standard?
let me reword my question:
does any other state require anything from your doctor in order to acquire a firearm?
or do they just do the FBI background check.
i'm asking bc i've never bought a firearm outside of hawaii.
Post by: Q on December 29, 2015, 01:14:02 PM
let me reword my question:
does any other state require anything from your doctor in order to acquire a firearm?
or do they just do the FBI background check.
i'm asking bc i've never bought a firearm outside of hawaii.
It is the GUN SHOP that does the background check; usually takes 5-10 minutes on an average day. The Gun shop calls NICS, NICS tells them if you are disqualified or not. If you aren't disqualified, you get your gun. If you are disqualified, you don't get your gun and will eventually be contacted by the ATF. Pistols are usually instantaneous if you are a resident in the state you are purchasing, and there is usually a 3-5 day waiting period if you are an out of state resident that is allowed to purchase (i.e. military).
Post by: mauidog on December 29, 2015, 01:52:30 PM
It is the GUN SHOP that does the background check; usually takes 5-10 minutes on an average day. The Gun shop calls NICS, NICS tells them if you are disqualified or not. If you aren't disqualified, you get your gun. If you are disqualified, you don't get your gun and will eventually be contacted by the ATF. Pistols are usually instantaneous if you are a resident in the state you are purchasing, and there is usually a 3-5 day waiting period if you are an out of state resident that is allowed to purchase (i.e. military).
In many states that ACTUALLY issue concealed carry permits, any waiting period, including for new handguns, is waived.
Residents without CCW permits may have to wait before picking the gun up, but the NICS check will have already been done and the answer reported to the seller.
Here's the messed up part: after the AZ shooting that wounded Gabby Giffords, Congressional testimony stated the status of mandatory reporting of psychological and mental illnesses to the FBI for NICS inclusion was extremely backlogged.
Based on this Aug 2014 report, 30 states have laws mandating reporting of mental health information into the NICS database. States are not required under federal law to submit mental health records to NICS. There are no consequences if states choose not to send records, resulting in major information gaps.
Only about 30 percent of the estimated 4.4 million mental health records in the United States over the past two decades can be found in NICS, according to research compiled in 2012.
Out of all gun purchases blocked by the FBI over the past 16 years, fewer than 2 percent were because of mental health status. That amounts to 14,613 blocked sales since 1998.
Every one of the country’s mass shooters since January 2009 could have slipped through NICS, according to a July 2014 study by the gun control organization Everytown for Gun Safety.
In 12 out of the 110 incidents identified by Everytown, the shooters had demonstrated some evidence of a mental illness, but there was no evidence that any of them had been mentally adjudicated or involuntarily committed for treatment.
Research over the past decade shows that it’s nearly impossible to predict which individuals will commit gun violence, let alone find them through NICS.
Basically, we are trying to find a small percentage of people who are mentally ill by stopping anyone who has a "flag" in their medical record which might indicate some type of emotional or mental issue.
Quote
“The ability of mental health professionals to pick out who’s going to be violent, it’s not much better than a coin toss,”
said Jeffrey Swanson, a medical sociologist from Duke University who studies the intersection of guns and mental illness.
“To focus only on mental health is misguided.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/lack-of-data-makes-it-hard-for-background-checks-system-to-work-properly/2014/08/28/d166c1b4-2ed8-11e4-be9e-60cc44c01e7f_story.html
Post by: Dolomite on December 29, 2015, 01:56:19 PM
Post by: aieahound on December 29, 2015, 02:00:50 PM
Here's the messed up part: after the AZ shooting that wounded Gabby Giffords, Congressional testimony stated the status of mandatory reporting of psychological and mental illnesses to the FBI for NICS inclusion was extremely backlogged.
Based on this Aug 2014 report, 30 states have laws mandating reporting of mental health information into the NICS database. States are not required under federal law to submit mental health records to NICS. There are no consequences if states choose not to send records, resulting in major information gaps.
Only about 30 percent of the estimated 4.4 million mental health records in the United States over the past two decades can be found in NICS, according to research compiled in 2012.
Out of all gun purchases blocked by the FBI over the past 16 years, fewer than 2 percent were because of mental health status. That amounts to 14,613 blocked sales since 1998.
Every one of the country’s mass shooters since January 2009 could have slipped through NICS, according to a July 2014 study by the gun control organization Everytown for Gun Safety.
In 12 out of the 110 incidents identified by Everytown, the shooters had demonstrated some evidence of a mental illness, but there was no evidence that any of them had been mentally adjudicated or involuntarily committed for treatment.
Research over the past decade shows that it’s nearly impossible to predict which individuals will commit gun violence, let alone find them through NICS.
Basically, we are trying to find a small percentage of people who are mentally ill by stopping anyone who has a "flag" in their medical record which might indicate some type of emotional or mental issue.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/lack-of-data-makes-it-hard-for-background-checks-system-to-work-properly/2014/08/28/d166c1b4-2ed8-11e4-be9e-60cc44c01e7f_story.html
Small percentage ? 12 out of 110 is over 10%.
Sounds like you're saying the letter should be required for everyone.
That NICS checks are insufficient ( as every one of the country's mass shooters since 2009 could have slipped through NICS and few states were reporting mental health records anyway )
I heard HPD stopped that request.... Back to normal per OGC post
I'm glad it's not any longer.
Post by: mauidog on December 29, 2015, 02:51:54 PM
Sounds like you're saying the letter should be required.
No, what I'm saying is, there is no way to effectively implement a requirement to evaluate existing medical records for determining the risk of allowing an individual to own a firearm. Sure, you might find a few who have real problems, but there is no way to know if you are actually preventing anything at all from happening. In fact, few criminals with mental illness commit crimes due to the symptoms of the illness itself. We hear of Son of Sam taking orders from the neighbor's dog, and we think that's how all crazy people think. Not true.
Of the known mentally ill patients of the country, what percentage actually hurts others based on the illness?
Quote
In a study of crimes committed by people with serious mental disorders, only 7.5 percent were directly related to symptoms
of mental illness, according to new research published by the American Psychological Association.
Researchers analyzed 429 crimes committed by 143 offenders with three major types of mental illness and found that 3
percent of their crimes were directly related to symptoms of major depression, 4 percent to symptoms of schizophrenia
disorders and 10 percent to symptoms of bipolar disorder.
“When we hear about crimes committed by people with mental illness, they tend to be big headline-making crimes so
they get stuck in people’s heads,” said lead researcher Jillian Peterson, PhD. “The vast majority of people with mental
illness are not violent, not criminal and not dangerous.”
So, the percentage of gun buyers who might have mental illness is small. Of that, the number who commit crimes due to their illness is small.
Trying to use any records-keeping system, including a "letter" saying you are not crazy, is not going to prevent anything.
As we all know, if someone is thinking of ever buying a gun, knowing that their seeking treatment could deny them, they may opt to avoid treatment. Therefore, no record exists even though the person may have been helped had he sought treatment.
Also, people with mental illness do not always go through the background check process. They can do like Sandy Hook's killer and steal from a family member, or they can do like the San Bernardino killers who got their rifles second hand from a friend. Another study shows the majority of career criminals get their guns from friends and known acquaintances, just like San Bernardino. If someone needs a gun, they will find a way without going through the background check.
As with all gun control laws, those most affected by them are the law abiding. Those who are breaking laws like murder could not care less about gun laws. Systems like this that attempt to identify people with certain "flags" in their records would be fine if the denial for gun purchasing was simply on hold until a real clearance evaluation is performed, not just a records check. Of course, that would hinge on the honesty of the patient before an accurate determination is possible.
If we want to get serious about keeping guns away from the mentally ill, then full mental health check-ups need to be performed throughout the patient's life, so there is a baseline with which to compare subsequent evaluations. Mental health issues are best spotted based on behavioral changes such as increased alcohol use, illegal drug use, increased or escalated domestic arguments, drop in school grades or job performance, petty criminal charges like shoplifting, ... anything that demonstrates a change in attitude or caring what happens to them.
Good luck getting anyone to agree to pay for this kind of ongoing evaluation process!
A bad solution cannot be made better by adding more layers of documentation or reviews of existing records. A letter might give the appearance you've been evaluated properly, but it's a lie if the letter writer has only your records to go on.
Post by: aieahound on December 29, 2015, 02:55:52 PM
Much better explanation. :thumbsup:
No anti-2As can use that one while we can.
Post by: mauidog on December 29, 2015, 03:01:13 PM
Small percentage ? 12 out of 110 is over 10%.
Sounds like you're saying the letter should be required for everyone.
That NICS checks are insufficient ( as every one of the country's mass shooters since 2009 could have slipped through NICS and few states were reporting mental health records anyway )
I'm glad it's not any longer.
I know you are mathematically challenged, since you still think a Vienna Sausage is 6 inches long ...
Nobody compared the ratio of 12 of 110 except you. The numbers show that of 110 shootings, only 12 had exhibited any signs of mental illness prior, and NONE (zero, zilch, nada) had been diagnosed or treated for any mental illness. This illustrates (1) 12 people who probably should have seen a doctor for mental health issues did not, (2) had they been treated and diagnosed, they MAY have subsequently been denied a gun purchase, (3) the system only knows what people tell it -- doctors, the justice system, family members, employers -- and (4) you need to learn to read for comprehension before trying to argue acts with me.
Post by: Sodie on December 29, 2015, 03:34:45 PM
They push button on a computer, and it does it for them.
Can you fill that in for me a little bit? So, request goes to health care provider to disclose information. HCP sends info to HPD (either electronic or hard copy). HPD pushes what button on what computer program to get the computer to tell them if you're qualified or not? What standard does the computer use? Does it just search for mental health-related medical codes? What if they get hard copy records?
Post by: Dumbgun on December 29, 2015, 03:55:44 PM
Post by: dogman on December 29, 2015, 05:55:28 PM
Unfortunately OGC is closed until Jan 04, 2016. I am sending them email asking them to have someone release it to me before this permit expires and I have to start all over again. Will post at there address here on forum, hope someone is monitoring. If anyone knows the owner personally I would appreciate you asking on my behalf. Fought kaiser, HPD. Now I have to fight time and OGC.Carter is really good about responding to emails.
Post by: mauidog on December 29, 2015, 07:11:14 PM
Confirmed. HPD went back to old way. they even kept the permits I was supposed to get on12/17/15 which they denied because they didn't approve of my $130 DR. note. They handed me both the pistol and rifle permit. Unfortunately OGC is closed until Jan 04, 2016. I am sending them email asking them to have someone release it to me before this permit expires and I have to start all over again. Will post at there address here on forum, hope someone is monitoring. If anyone knows the owner personally I would appreciate you asking on my behalf. Fought kaiser, HPD. Now I have to fight time and OGC. Just think $1000.00 pistol cost me $1400.00. And it only took a month and Four separate trips to HPD and I still can't get my pistol.
If you register a day or two late, HPD usually doesn't say anything. If they do, tell them it's their fault for denying you the first time (assuming OGC was not on vacation yet). :rofl:
I've registered a few days late because I couldn't get there before 3:00 and the doors were already locked. It was Friday, so I just went Monday.
Once you have the permit and the firearm, you've covered the major requirements for acquisition. So, don't sweat the registration. Before the deadline is always better, but a little late won't be a problem.
YMMV.
Post by: Q on December 29, 2015, 07:39:26 PM
Carter is really good about responding to emails.
He hasn't been responding to mine.
Post by: dustoff003 on December 29, 2015, 08:00:13 PM
Carter is really good about responding to emails.
He hasn't been responding to mine.Fellas I haven't seen Carter in like a year at the shop.
Post by: Q on December 29, 2015, 08:35:36 PM
Fellas I haven't seen Carter in like a year at the shop.
He said he was on the mainland
Post by: aieahound on December 29, 2015, 10:30:45 PM
In 12 out of the 110 incidents identified by Everytown, the shooters had demonstrated some evidence of a mental illness, but there was no evidence that any of them had been mentally adjudicated or involuntarily committed for treatment.
My reading comprehension is fine.
Your Google fu is strong. Intellect, not so much.
Did you re-read your original post ? You're making an argument for the psych letter !
If I was anti-2A I would quote it !
Your second post is much better.
And my Vienna sausage is at least 6 inches long ! :rofl:
.
He hasn't been responding to mine.
Good luck with OGC boys.
Hope they can accommodate your timetable.
Post by: scorpio ps on December 29, 2015, 11:22:53 PM
Post by: Heavies on December 30, 2015, 04:51:45 AM
I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think this is an important point. The law DOES NOT require "clearance from your doctor." It requires your doctor to disclose mental health info to HPD. HPD makes the qualified/disqualified decision... based on what standard?
§134-7
(1) Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411; or
(3) Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes;
The doctor needs to give no clearance, they must disclose if any of the above applies, if none applies they (the Dr.) the need do nothing. So if any of that applies HPD must determine on this above.
Post by: nathanm14fan on December 30, 2015, 10:16:50 AM
If you register a day or two late, HPD usually doesn't say anything. If they do, tell them it's their fault for denying you the first time (assuming OGC was not on vacation yet). :rofl:
I've registered a few days late because I couldn't get there before 3:00 and the doors were already locked. It was Friday, so I just went Monday.
Once you have the permit and the firearm, you've covered the major requirements for acquisition. So, don't sweat the registration. Before the deadline is always better, but a little late won't be a problem.
YMMV.
Yeah they seem to be pretty understanding on the registration issue. I sold two rifles last year and the buyer (a friend) took 45 days to register them. He's military so maybe they cut him some slack, but I always mail in the required information after a private party sale so they contacted him and asked why he didn't register in the required timeframe. He went down the next day and had no issues registering. LIke you said, YMMV.
Post by: aieahound on December 30, 2015, 10:35:31 AM
Good for 10 days.
Post by: Inspector on December 30, 2015, 10:38:48 AM
Yeah they seem to be pretty understanding on the registration issue. I sold two rifles last year and the buyer (a friend) took 45 days to register them. He's military so maybe they cut him some slack, but I always mail in the required information after a private party sale so they contacted him and asked why he didn't register in the required timeframe. He went down the next day and had no issues registering. LIke you said, YMMV.This happened to me. I bought a rifle at X-Ring and took it home, put it in my safe and forgot about it. Got a call about 3 months later. They didn't seem too worried about it. They told me I had 3 days to get it registered. They didn't threaten me or scold me or anything. Very polite and straight forward.
Post by: GZire on December 30, 2015, 01:12:43 PM
Back to the old way, except there was a special "Kaiser" form that you, yourself, needed to fill out. Simple sign and date. Oh and right thumb finger printing as well. I chummed it up with some guys in line that spent $200 to get a psych evaluation, but I informed them they didn't need to and seemed pretty miffed that they spent that money. I just told them that it was good they had it and if HPD did want it, then they'd actually have it on hand. But HPD didn't ask and so they're out a few hundred LOL! But other then that...good to go :shaka: :shaka: :shaka:
Thank you for the update.
I have had a pistol sitting at OGC for a couple of weeks now. I bought it as a back for a trip I'm taking for a class. Crappy thing is my backup is now no longer going to be that..........because of the timing of all this horseshit I have to take a completely different platform. >:(
Anyhow that you for your hard work and input. :shaka:
Post by: Dumbgun on December 30, 2015, 05:25:54 PM
I spent a lot of time spreading the gospel on this issue when it first broke, both on the range and on this forum. I'm glad that my efforts and those of others paid off. I have been watching the forum and reading mostly. For those of you who were the nay sayers, the non believers, and the non participants, you can now reap the rewards. For those that spent their own money to get their permit, you were successful in more ways than one. You proved how hypocritical this purely HPD manufactured fiasco was. The pressure kept increasing through the mayors office and those legislators that were contacted. And then there was the checkmate move by Dumgun on TV. Well he wasn't that dumb after all. Once I saw that on TV, I knew it was over. My second signal came last Tuesday, when Holcomb no longer thought he can win because the rule would change now that the story broke in the news. For that guy Dzine808 that stood in line after the fiasco was over and thought that it was funny that some people paid and he didn't. I say to you "hero's are those that make sacrifices for others". You and others on this forum pay thousands of dollars for guns. You waste thousands of dollars in ammunition. Yet you complain about spending a couple of hundred dollars to expedite a process. This was a classic example of David slaying Goliath. We also saw those that made things happen, those that watched things happen and those that are still wondering what happened. For the last two, try harder next time. Out.....
I think when I sent my DR. SHUN (my PCP), an email about HPD giving out his clearance letter as an example, he got upset and sent a cease and desist letter and got the kaiser legal eagles on the warpath. My appearance on the news maybe got some got some ears perked. The Dumbgun moniker is in reference to my adherence in shooting iron sights. "Dumbgun". If you put batteries in an attachment and attach to rifle That is a "Smartgun". If you spend thousands on an AR and need gizmos you are a fool. A nicely armed fool. In real world SHTF episode, some one trained like me will take your thousand dollar gun for free. Paper has no pulse. I ain't no "operator" I am an old school "shooter" some of you old timers know what that means.
As to my concern about OGC being closed. I am simply concerned about HPD coming up with a new "policy" OGC staff email said two people have keys. One in cali the other in arizona. I have never owned a gun store. But, I would not leave my "gun store" unattended without any way for police and fire to address concerns, not to mention maintenance and or incoming deliveries. I am seeking out of anger as when I purchased the pistol 11/24/15 No one at OGC had alerted are about the Kaiser denials. No problem taking my money though. I like the old store better. I liked Magnum when they sold rims and guns he was humble then. Got big time, hobnobbed with HPD then was an overnight assshole. OGC seems to be following the same business plan.
Overall I agree with you. Too much talk pointing out the obvious. Not enough doing. Most will sit out the fight and yet stand up for the accolades and claim as their own. I will continue my empty holster protest. I will strive to calmly educate and ease the fears of the uninformed. Wait a minute. I just might be DUMB
Post by: hispdvic on January 10, 2016, 06:03:35 PM
And on top of that somebody went done to the Kaiser Records section at Dole Cannery and went off on the people there, that they considered it a hostile work incident and so you can no longer go down there in person to get a copy of your records etc.., it appears your going to have request submit some kind form thru the mail, sign it and mail it back.
Post by: dustoff003 on January 10, 2016, 06:25:09 PM
And on top of that somebody went done to the Kaiser Records section at Dole Cannery and went off on the people there, that they considered it a hostile work incident and so you can no longer go down there in person to get a copy of your records etc..
Didn't someone here post that they went down there and caused trouble?
Post by: scorpio ps on January 11, 2016, 03:26:36 PM
Has anybody who has Kaiser gone down to HPD since since Jan 1 2016 and been able to pick up their permits for firearms, I know they went back to the old way, sign the release form, thumb print. But I was just told by somebody at Kaiser that their lawyers are still reviewing the matter and that Kaiser has not sent back anything to HPD, so you wont be able to get your permit.
And on top of that somebody went done to the Kaiser Records section at Dole Cannery and went off on the people there, that they considered it a hostile work incident and so you can no longer go down there in person to get a copy of your records etc.., it appears your going to have request submit some kind form thru the mail, sign it and mail it back.
I just went today 1/11 they don't even ask what coverage you have. It's all good.
Post by: stangzilla on January 11, 2016, 03:28:39 PM
Post by: scorpio ps on January 11, 2016, 07:13:35 PM
Post by: WayneN on January 26, 2016, 10:14:05 AM
Post by: HiCarry on January 26, 2016, 12:22:58 PM
§134-7
(1) Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411; or
(3) Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes;
The doctor needs to give no clearance, they must disclose if any of the above applies, if none applies they (the Dr.) the need do nothing. So if any of that applies HPD must determine on this above.
Yes, you do need a doctor's, or more correctly, a medical clearance. You need to read the entirety of the statute:
(c) No person who:
(1) Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411; or
(3) Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes;
shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor, unless the person has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect.
(d) No person who is less than twenty-five years old and has been adjudicated by the family court to have committed a felony, two or more crimes of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(e) No minor who:
(1) Is or has been under treatment for addiction to any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Is a fugitive from justice; or
(3) Has been determined not to have been responsible for a criminal act or has been committed to any institution on account of a mental disease, disorder, or defect;
shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor, unless the minor has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction, mental disease, disorder, or defect.
Post by: ren on January 26, 2016, 12:26:19 PM
I think when I sent my DR. SHUN (my PCP), an email about HPD giving out his clearance letter as an example, he got upset and sent a cease and desist letter and got the kaiser legal eagles on the warpath. My appearance on the news maybe got some got some ears perked. The Dumbgun moniker is in reference to my adherence in shooting iron sights. "Dumbgun". If you put batteries in an attachment and attach to rifle That is a "Smartgun". If you spend thousands on an AR and need gizmos you are a fool. A nicely armed fool. In real world SHTF episode, some one trained like me will take your thousand dollar gun for free. Paper has no pulse. I ain't no "operator" I am an old school "shooter" some of you old timers know what that means.
As to my concern about OGC being closed. I am simply concerned about HPD coming up with a new "policy" OGC staff email said two people have keys. One in cali the other in arizona. I have never owned a gun store. But, I would not leave my "gun store" unattended without any way for police and fire to address concerns, not to mention maintenance and or incoming deliveries. I am seeking out of anger as when I purchased the pistol 11/24/15 No one at OGC had alerted are about the Kaiser denials. No problem taking my money though. I like the old store better. I liked Magnum when they sold rims and guns he was humble then. Got big time, hobnobbed with HPD then was an overnight assshole. OGC seems to be following the same business plan.
Overall I agree with you. Too much talk pointing out the obvious. Not enough doing. Most will sit out the fight and yet stand up for the accolades and claim as their own. I will continue my empty holster protest. I will strive to calmly educate and ease the fears of the uninformed. Wait a minute. I just might be DUMB
I tried a red dot for bullseye shooting about a month ago and my groups shrank in half. It was an Aimpoint T1 on a 1911. I want to be smart.
Post by: Heavies on January 26, 2016, 09:50:07 PM
Yes, you do need a doctor's, or more correctly, a medical clearance. You need to read the entirety of the statute:Understood. What I was trying to say is that if a person never had any of the disqualifying conditions, then no DRs blessing is required.
(c) No person who:
(1) Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411; or
(3) Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes;
shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor, unless the person has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect.
(d) No person who is less than twenty-five years old and has been adjudicated by the family court to have committed a felony, two or more crimes of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(e) No minor who:
(1) Is or has been under treatment for addiction to any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Is a fugitive from justice; or
(3) Has been determined not to have been responsible for a criminal act or has been committed to any institution on account of a mental disease, disorder, or defect;
shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor, unless the minor has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction, mental disease, disorder, or defect.
Post by: fl808 on December 17, 2020, 03:27:56 PM