2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: mikenkapolei on February 29, 2016, 10:29:03 AM
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Aloha folks
I searched past posts but couldn't find an answer
so hopefully someone can help.
I'm going to Nevada and taking my handgun with me. I have a small pelican case for my handgun that I will lock and place in my luggage. Hawaiian Air says the luggage has to be "hard sided". Can I use those lightweight plastic suitcases or does it have to be more rugged like a pelican case?
Ive sent a request for information to TSA but haven't heard back.
Thanks!
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I haven't traveled with my guns for a while, but when I did, I was sure to print out both the TSA regulations as well as the specific airline's policy as you'll likely find that TSA and airline employees often don't know their own policies or in some cases make up their own. It's helpful to have that documentation. I once had an airline agent tell me that my gun case requires TSA locks, which isn't the case.
I'd have to look up the regulations (don't have time right now), but I thought there was requirements for the locks for the case. Something about the locks have to prevent the case from being pried open. I just looked up the TSA regulation and I don't see it. The Pelican case that I have for my rifles has two locks on the long side and one lock at each end.
Here's a thread from a while back that discussed travel requirements.
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=17706.msg161986#msg161986 (https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=17706.msg161986#msg161986)
Hope that helps.
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What's a lightweight plastic suitcase? I pack my handguns in the manufactures case with a lock, and put that it in the usual fabric sided suitcases that are common and secure it with another lock. I had no problems in the past.
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yeah what zippz said. sometimes you have to argue with the counter folks but that's how I read it as well, as long as the gun is in a hardsided case it shouldn't matter if goes in soft sided luggage as hard case requirement already satisfied.
either way I recommend hard sided luggage too for double protection :) Delsey makes the best / cost IMO. go Ebags they have great deals.
have fun!
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Found what I was thinking about.
You may transport unloaded firearms in a locked hard-sided container as checked baggage only. Declare the firearm and/or ammunition to the airline when checking your bag at the ticket counter. The container must completely secure the firearm from being accessed. Locked cases that can be easily opened are not permitted. Be aware that the container the firearm was in when purchased may not adequately secure the firearm when it is transported in checked baggage.
https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunition (https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunition)
The example that I was told (I think it was on M4C) were those flimsy rifle cases with a lock in the center where you can easily pry open the case and get to the gun. That that was subject to possible rejection by TSA.
When I traveled with my handguns, it was inside my rifle Pelican case. Never tried flying with the guns in the container that they came in. Some are pretty stout though where I could see it being acceptable.
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You can use any type of suitcase as long as the container that the firearm is in is a "locked, hard-sided container". I travel frequently with my firearms and have used everything from Pelican cases to small metal safes that I keep inside my suitcase. Just make sure that it is unloaded, ammo is NOT inside the same container as the firearm, and declared to the ticket agent. If you're flying on Hawaiian you'll need to stand in line at the Customer Service counter so make sure you give yourself enough time for that line and the TSA line.
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You can use any type of suitcase as long as the container that the firearm is in is a "locked, hard-sided container". I travel frequently with my firearms and have used everything from Pelican cases to small metal safes that I keep inside my suitcase. Just make sure that it is unloaded, ammo is NOT inside the same container as the firearm, and declared to the ticket agent. If you're flying on Hawaiian you'll need to stand in line at the Customer Service counter so make sure you give yourself enough time for that line and the TSA line.
Maybe that was Hawaiian's policy. I believe it acceptable per TSA regulations and United and Delta's policy (I think Alaska's as well) to allow ammunition within the same rigid and locked container as your unloaded firearm. TSA does have verbiage about the ammo being "securely boxed". I've flown a bunch of times on all those airlines with ammo within the same locked container as the unloaded firearm. The only stipulation that I recall was that the ammo couldn't be loose. I was looking into what ammo I could bring back from my trips at that time and for some reason that always stuck in my mind.
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Thanks everyone for your responses.
I travel outer island a lot for work (no firearms) so I stop by and ask them the same questions and seem to get a different answer every time.
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Thanks everyone for your responses.
I travel outer island a lot for work (no firearms) so I stop by and ask them the same questions and seem to get a different answer every time.
:thumbsup:
Regarding the different responses, sounds typical.
At airports like Anchorage, Alaska, where it seems common for people to be traveling with firearms, they seem MUCH better. On my first trip with firearms there, I was one of like 10 people claiming firearms. Most of the others were going hunting. Super easy process on both arrival and when it was time to return home. They had the gun cases separated and you needed to claim.
On return trips home, I've had about 50/50 where I had to claim the guns from an agent and where it came out on the conveyor! On my first trip, I assumed that it needed to be claimed by seeing an agent. After I claimed my suitcase, I noticed my gun case on the carousel!
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Just buy a TSA approved lockbox or a Pelican case will work, I go an extra step when I transport a handgun to the mainland. I break the gun down before I put it in the box/case, remove the slide etc..,so when you have to open it for they get a little stiffey seeing that the gun cant be fired without having to put it back together first.
They don't like the ammo to be in the case with the gun unless its a different caliber, in case the bag rats etc.. take it they would be able to load it up and go to town with it.
Must of the airlines will allow each person to bring 11/12 lbs of ammo per person, (Alaska Airlines allows more) just has to be in the factory box and which I put all the boxes of ammo into a box that will hold all of it and just tape it up.
Been doing it for years never had a problem.
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Note that the lock(s) on the case need to be NOT TSA locks. The regulations state "Only the passenger should retain the key or combination to the lock." This is explicitly to keep TSA agents from opening the case when not in your presence. TSA had a run of bad luck with agents damaging expensive toys and changed their policies.
As far as ammo, "Small arms ammunition, including ammunition not exceeding .75 caliber and shotgun shells of any gauge, may be carried in the same hard-sided case as the firearm."
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Lots of great information, all pretty consistent with what I've been seeing online. Thanks everyone. If I experience anything unusual, I'll update my post with the details.
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I travel at least 2x / month outer island (Hawaiian Air) and 4 - 6 times per year outside of Hawaii (mostly Hawaiian or United as primary flight with transfers at times). Hawaiian Air, I do the drive through check-in. Small locked case for pistol that goes in a soft sided suitcase / rolling duffel. I keep ammo separate from the locked pistol case (easier). I tell them the weapon is unloaded in its locked case and ammo is separate from the weapon. I will also tell them that I have under 11 pounds of ammo. Never had an issue at the drive through. Never had TSA ask to open the locked pistol case inside the suitcase but have had the TSA inspection flyer inside the suitcase. Now if I have a locked Pelican, my own locks, after check-in I go right up the escalator to the TSA area on that same end, for inspection.
On one occasion I did my check-in inside upstairs, drive through closed. I went to the customer service / check-in for Gold / Platinum / First Class. Had a new agent working there. She was confused about weapons in cases and declaration. She checked with TSA and she got the scoop, which matched what I told her. I also told her I had under 11lbs of ammo. She looked up the ammo restrictions on the computer, verified and actually wanted to weigh the ammo separate on the scale. Not a big deal, she was learning and trying to follow the rules.
Now for dedicated gun cases like Pelican cases, I often travel with Pelican cases. 2 are square style cases for gear, the others are standard rifle types. Now the Pelican cases draw different attention. I use my own locks (NON-TSA) locks which are OK. However after check-in, you must take those cases to the TSA area for inspection. They will swab the case and have you lock them in front of them. I have also had them inspect gear cases without firearms so I could put on my own locks, so they won't cut them open if they get curious later. This is not necessary, but if they want to inspect the case, they will cut the non-TSA locks. Porter will then take the case(s) into the back for baggage. I also note that it seems that if I am traveling with Pelican cases, my soft sided suitcases will guaranteed have a TSA inspection slip inside. If no pelican case, usually no inspection on the standard suitcases, even if I declared ammo only. I will also guess that if you have "military" or "tactical" looking suitcases, it seems that they get profiled and will often get inspection by TSA. My OD green rolling 511 suitcase / duffel gets hit every time, while other standard style suitcases get ignored. Pelican cases with no weapons / ammo, will get inspected.
I will note that when I go through the drive through, if I am not taking a weapon but if I am taking ammo only, I will declare the ammo, but the agents there never raise an eye at it and don't even ask any further questions. Maybe they know me well enough already?
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Just be careful if you're "transiting" through JFK because NY Port Authority will give you tons of grief if you have ammo in the same suitcase as the container with the firearm. Speaking from personal experience,
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I do not go to New York, New Jersey and California, although I have been to those states a few times. For now I only go to Nevada and states that honor non resident NV, UT & AZ permits. As far as traveling, I have only used Hawaiian and put the ammo in the same Pelican case as the handgun. I put the Pelican case locked with non TSA locks inside a hardside suitcase that does not have zipper closure. Never had a problem
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The lightweight plastic suitcase I eluded to in the beginning DOES have a zipper closure. I was going to put my pelican case in that. Anyone tried that?
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Zipper closures are fine. I looked for a long time to find the samsonite suitcase without zippers. It is just more rigid and has a built in TSA lock.
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Just be careful if you're "transiting" through JFK because NY Port Authority will give you tons of grief if you have ammo in the same suitcase as the container with the firearm. Speaking from personal experience,
Oh yeah. I forgot about the "transiting" part.
On a couple of trips, I had stopovers in CA. I had lots of warnings that in the event that you get stuck there, be VERY careful about how you handle your firearms, especially if you needed to leave the airport (for overnight lodging or other stuff). There were many stories of people getting jammed up because their firearms were not CA compliant when they missed a connection or other reason to have to stay in CA unexpectedly. NY/NJ was another place that I have seen warnings about. I didn't plan my flight any differently, but was always warned to get to know the laws of the places where you where you had stopovers or had to pass through.
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So I went the airport today and am happy to report that it went very smoothly. The only thing was the lady at the counter was a little loud so when she handed me the orange card and said you have to sign this stating your firearm is unloaded, three people over at the next counter gave me a OMG look, but other than that it was really simple.
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You can use any type of suitcase as long as the container that the firearm is in is a "locked, hard-sided container". I travel frequently with my firearms and have used everything from Pelican cases to small metal safes that I keep inside my suitcase. Just make sure that it is unloaded, ammo is NOT inside the same container as the firearm, and declared to the ticket agent. If you're flying on Hawaiian you'll need to stand in line at the Customer Service counter so make sure you give yourself enough time for that line and the TSA line.
Hawaiian does not have a policy against storing small amounts of ammo in the same hardsided case your firearm is stored/locked in. I do it all the time.
Per HAL's Conditions of Carriage:
Rule 195: Shooting Equipment (Sporting Firearms)
Items of shooting equipment will be accepted only as checked baggage subject to the conditions and charges specified below:
Conditions of Acceptance
Firearms must be unloaded and placed in a suitable container. Firearms must be packed in (1) a manufacturer's crush-proof type container, manufactured specifically for the firearm, or (2) a hard case. Baggage containing firearms must be locked with a key or lock combination in possession of the passenger only, and the bag must be of hard side type. Baggage containing firearms will be transported in an area, other than the cockpit, that is inaccessible to passengers.
Ammunition must be packed in the manufacturer's original package or securely packed in fiber, wood, or metal boxes.
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Traveled for the first time to the mainland Honolulu to Orlando and back on American with firearms. 2 rifles in pelican 1750, 2 handguns in a pelican 1200 inside of a larger luggage. No real problems going opened cases at the ticket counter placed signed firearm(s) unloaded card inside and then was asked to wait 10-15 min incase TSA wanted me to open the cases. Waited was not called to open so I went to the gate. Arrived to Orlando and waited for firearms to come out in the oversized/special handing area. 1750 and luggage came out and ID and baggage claim check was checked prior to the items being released to me. Looked 1750 over and noticed this (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160312/8f3d4cab5db96854eac54aa813e3e4eb.jpg) I asked to make a claim and I was told that the damage was fair wear and tear I was like WTF, so I opened the case to check the operation of the hinge and to ensure that the pin wasn't bent it worked. This was a brand new case on its first trip. I then left and went about my vacation.
I shot with my brothers and family twice at Okeechobee Shooting Sports, http://okshooting.com It is a nice place I didn't explore it all I shoot on their rifle gallery and pistol gallery there were other ranges it cost $30 for 3 galleries (rifle, pistol and rimfire).
Return trip from Orlando to HI, items were packed the same with the addition of 11 pounds of ammo for my wife and I.
A local guy was at the ticket counter and he was super nice and helpful opened cases put in unloaded firearm(s) card and then the gentleman walked us across to the TSA and they scanned and swabbed the items there and said that I was good to go once again without having to open either case. We went from Orlando to Dallas on the way we went through and around a large storm, it caused us to nearly miss our connection. We made it on out flight to Honolulu we were unsure if our bags would make it. Arrived in HNL and the AA baggage counter and asked to retrieve my items and the girl said its around the corner by the door and I once again think WTF. I looked around the corner and it wasn't my 1750 it was a bow case. I figured I'd go check the carousel and I saw our other luggage I pulled it and then guess what I see my small luggage with the 1200 and two handguns inside coming around with the red special handling tag still affixed and intact another WTF moment. I proceed back to the counter to tell them my bag with 2 guns inside was going around the carousel and I ask if they could locate my 1750. The girl looked and said that it was on a later flight it didn't make it on ours and that it would be in a little later then about an hour or so, I left my info and went for some food. I got a call from AA saying that my 1750 arrived I went back and got it and then filed a claim for the damage. All in all not a bad experience I got to the airport 3 hours early because I wasn't sure how it all would go down it was a good amount of time to check in and get through security.
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Flew to Oahu on Alaska air. 870 tactical, three pistols, 8 ar bare receivers and 100 rds 40 cal hp in cheap "tactical" pelican clone case on Alaska air from San Diego. Not one issue. AK air was awesome! In Hnl the agents were personally watching my case and verified my luggage tag. Love AK air!
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I think my Pelican case sustained the same damage to the hinge/fins, but I don't recall that it was as bad as yours. I've have to take a look at it when I get home. I never thought to file a claim for the damage, so will be interesting to see what AA gives/says.
Most of my trips with guns were on United. The agents on the Honolulu end ranged from clueless to familiar. One clueless agent tried to tell me that I needed TSA locks on the case. :wacko:
In two trips to Alaska, the agents at the Anchorage airport were super efficient, but I attributed that to them encountering travelers with guns more frequently. On my first trip with my guns, like the OP, I found my guns on the main carousel at HNL. I don't recall if they were tagged with anything special. At all other airports, I had to claim them at a customer service desk.
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Anyone know why ammunition can't be in plastic reloading cases then cardboard boxed?
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I've had people tell me to use TSA locks on the pelican cases. This is not necessary.
In fact, I think it's a good idea to use non-TSA locks because the firearm should not be in other people's possession.
If using non-TSA locks, ADD at least 30 minutes to your check-in time as the check-in lady will ask you to wait at the counter while your bag goes through TSA. This way, if TSA wants you to open case, they won't have to call you back to open up your luggage.
After 30 mins, the check-in lady will call TSA and ask if your bag has cleared. If all is good, then you can proceed to the security check.
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Anyone know why ammunition can't be in plastic reloading cases then cardboard boxed?
Idk why the reloading case is not acceptable, but ammo in the store bought box was acceptable. it was in the plastic separated case and in the cardboard box. like how it is when you buy it.
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I've had people tell me to use TSA locks on the pelican cases. This is not necessary.
In fact, I don't think it's a good idea to use non-TSA locks because the firearm should not be in other people's possession.
If using non-TSA locks, ADD at least 30 minutes to your check-in time as the check-in lady will ask you to wait at the counter while your bag goes through TSA. This way, if TSA wants you to open case, they won't have to call you back to open up your luggage.
After 30 mins, the check-in lady will call TSA and ask if your bag has cleared. If all is good, then you can proceed to the security check.
From TSA website:
Firearms
•When traveling, comply with the laws concerning possession of firearms as they vary by local, state and international governments.
•Declare each firearm each time you present it for transport as checked baggage. Ask your airline about limitations or fees that may apply.
•Firearms must be unloaded and locked in a hard-sided container and transported as checked baggage only. Only the passenger should retain the key or combination to the lock.
•Firearm parts, including magazines, clips, bolts and firing pins, are prohibited in carry-on baggage, but may be transported in checked baggage.
•Replica firearms, including firearm replicas that are toys, may be transported in checked baggage only.
•Rifle scopes are permitted in carry-on and checked baggage.
Confirmed with United's policy that was told to NOT use TSA locks. As for waiting, that was advised each time I travelled. Some airports have you take your firearms case to a separate area from typical baggage and they screen it in front of you. Since most of the screening TSA screening areas are downstairs, the gate agents recommend you wait. Something about they will not call you to return to the baggage area if TSA needs to open the case. I think Hawaiian now has the TSA screening in the baggage area, but I haven't flown with them with my guns.
Anyone know why ammunition can't be in plastic reloading cases then cardboard boxed?
Ammunition
•Ammunition is prohibited in carry-on baggage, but may be transported in checked baggage.
•Firearm magazines and ammunition clips, whether loaded or empty, must be securely boxed or included within a hard-sided case containing an unloaded firearm. Read the requirements governing the transport of ammunition in checked baggage as defined by 49 CFR 175.10 (a)(8).
•Small arms ammunition, including ammunition not exceeding .75 caliber and shotgun shells of any gauge, may be carried in the same hard-sided case as the firearm.
49 CFR 175.10 (a)(8)
(8) Small arms ammunition for personal use carried by a crewmember or passenger in checked baggage only, if securely packed in boxes or other packagings specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ammunition clips and magazines must also be securely boxed. This paragraph does not apply to persons traveling under the provisions of 49 CFR 1544.219.
I've only travelled with ammo boxed in commercial packaging, but I thought it was ok to have the ammo in ammo boxes that you describe as it being "specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition". However, each airlines have their own policies. One that varies is the amount of ammunition allowed. I wouldn't doubt it there were variations in container requirements.
Recommending printing out both the TSA and specific airline requirements. Sometimes the gate agents don't even know their own policies. One United gate agent said that my rifle case needed TSA locks and I was able to show then the TSA and United policy that said the exact opposite.
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From TSA website:
Confirmed with United's policy that was told to NOT use TSA locks. As for waiting, that was advised each time I travelled. Some airports have you take your firearms case to a separate area from typical baggage and they screen it in front of you. Since most of the screening TSA screening areas are downstairs, the gate agents recommend you wait. Something about they will not call you to return to the baggage area if TSA needs to open the case. I think Hawaiian now has the TSA screening in the baggage area, but I haven't flown with them with my guns.
I've only travelled with ammo boxed in commercial packaging, but I thought it was ok to have the ammo in ammo boxes that you describe as it being "specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition". However, each airlines have their own policies. One that varies is the amount of ammunition allowed. I wouldn't doubt it there were variations in container requirements.
Recommending printing out both the TSA and specific airline requirements. Sometimes the gate agents don't even know their own policies. One United gate agent said that my rifle case needed TSA locks and I was able to show then the TSA and United policy that said the exact opposite.
I was at Venutra Munitions in Vegas and they sell reloaded ammo that comes loose in a bag that is inside a card board box. The owner said I might have a problem with that if I didn't bring a lockable ammo can. It all depends on the attitude of the person at the counter and TSA. But boxed ammo (20rds, 50rds, etc...) no issues.
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I was at Venutra Munitions in Vegas and they sell reloaded ammo that comes loose in a bag that is inside a card board box. The owner said I might have a problem with that if I didn't bring a lockable ammo can. It all depends on the attitude of the person at the counter and TSA. But boxed ammo (20rds, 50rds, etc...) no issues.
Yeah, can depend on the personnel that you deal with. I've had a HNL United gate agent pretty much just hand me the declaration tag, tell me to put it in the case and sent my case on it's way without even looking. I've had another HNL United agent almost gasp when I mentioned my firearms and had me take the case to the side and she had a coworker help me from that point on.
I was told that loose ammunition can be a problem, but I have never tried. I pushed the weight limit a few times and I guess I got lucky as no one has checked. I was wondering what I would do with the extra ammo if it was over. As in I wasn't sure if I could have a TSA agent dispose. I have friends that work with CPB and I was joking with them that I would "donate" it to them or their buddies on duty at the time. ;D
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On a related note, I used to see foreigners completely saranwrap their luggage to avoid the bullet scam. I hear that this has been stopped by the airport administration saying they will prosecute the scammers if caught.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/04/aviation/philippines-airport-bullet-bag-scam-tanim-bala/
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Yeah, can depend on the personnel that you deal with. I've had a HNL United gate agent pretty much just hand me the declaration tag, tell me to put it in the case and sent my case on it's way without even looking. I've had another HNL United agent almost gasp when I mentioned my firearms and had me take the case to the side and she had a coworker help me from that point on.
I was told that loose ammunition can be a problem, but I have never tried. I pushed the weight limit a few times and I guess I got lucky as no one has checked. I was wondering what I would do with the extra ammo if it was over. As in I wasn't sure if I could have a TSA agent dispose. I have friends that work with CPB and I was joking with them that I would "donate" it to them or their buddies on duty at the time. ;D
11lbs includes any carrying devise (ammo can, box,etc...) So Ventura Munitions weighted it for me. 223 ammo in 20rd boxes. I had 22 boxes. 10.8lbs.
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11lbs includes any carrying devise (ammo can, box,etc...) So Ventura Munitions weighted it for me. 223 ammo in 20rd boxes. I had 22 boxes. 10.8lbs.
There's a previous thread where I posted some general guidelines on amount of ammo and weight. I think I weighed my ammo prior to my first time flying, but not since then.
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There's a previous thread where I posted some general guidelines on amount of ammo and weight. I think I weighed my ammo prior to my first time flying, but not since then.
I travel to Fairbank, AK every year for moose season in September on Alaska Air. No probs either way. In Fairbanks you have to go to a special counter close to the baggage claim with ID and baggage claim ticket to get your guns. Every time when I come back to HNL, my gun case with Rifle & Pistol come rolling down the carousel for all to see. If I had been 10 minutes late in getting to the baggage claim, who knows what could have happened! Each time I complained to TSA, Airport security and Alaska Air. TSA and Airport security give me a "deer in the headlights" look. this last time I threatened them with going their agencies (TSA woke up then, bozo with airport security still was in lala land. TSA gave me some paperwork to fill out and said they will take care of the problem. Guess it aint fixed yet since last June I made a trip to Kali to do some trap shooting and guess where my pelican shogun case came out of? Yup, general baggage on the carousel! :crazy: :worship: :wtf: