2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: SWHunter on March 30, 2016, 08:26:30 PM
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Live in Hawaii on Oahu.
I went down to apply for a permit to acquire for handgun for a Ruger 22/45 from Windward Gun Shop on February Sunday 21st and paid for it Tuesday or Wednesday, then received a missed call from Honolulu Police Department. I called them back and spoke to an Officer stating that I needed clearance from my Medical Care provider, which is Kaiser. I called Kaiser and asked them to send over what HPD needed and they said their policy has changed. I called back to HPD and asked who will give clearance and they said they cannot refer people to doctors.
So at that time I withdrew my permit to acquire handgun and told them I am going to cancel the firearm purchase, HPD said OK no problem. I went back down to WGS either the 23rd or the 24th of February and informed them that Kaiser won’t release what HPD needs so I will have to cancel the purchase. They gave me a full refund and said they were sorry. I thought I was cleared and done with HPD.
I believed that I would just not be able to purchase the pistol or any other pistol until the Kaiser and HPD’s issues were resolved. I believed that I would still be able to purchase long guns with my current long gun permit to acquire.
I still have an existing permit to acquire long gun until August 2016. I own pistol’s and long guns. I took the DLNR hunter course and I took OGC’s handgun course.
I received a certified letter on 3/29/2016 from HPD. Dated from March 10th, I signed for it at the post office on 3/29/2016. http://i.imgur.com/DoMfuo4.jpg
Any insight would be nice. I would like to ask anyone willing to help post this thread link everywhere they can I am not sure if this would get kicked from GD.
I attempted to reach out the the NRA-ILA since I am a Life Memeber. No response yet. Going to try to reach our to HRA Hawaii Rifle Association but I am not a member and do not know what they can do for me.
posted on ar15.com as well just minutes ago under industry Larue forums.
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posted in legal but i hope more see it here.
I went down to apply for a permit to acquire for handgun for a Ruger 22/45 from Windward Gun Shop on February Sunday 21st and paid for it Tuesday or Wednesday, then received a missed call from Honolulu Police Department. I called them back and spoke to an Officer stating that I needed clearance from my Medical Care provider, which is Kaiser. I called Kaiser and asked them to send over what HPD needed and they said their policy has changed. I called back to HPD and asked who will give clearance and they said they cannot refer people to doctors.
So at that time I withdrew my permit to acquire handgun and told them I am going to cancel the firearm purchase, HPD said OK no problem. I went back down to WGS either the 23rd or the 24th of February and informed them that Kaiser won’t release what HPD needs so I will have to cancel the purchase. They gave me a full refund and said they were sorry. I thought I was cleared and done with HPD.
I believed that I would just not be able to purchase the pistol or any other pistol until the Kaiser and HPD’s issues were resolved. I believed that I would still be able to purchase long guns with my current long gun permit to acquire.
I still have an existing permit to acquire long gun until August 2016. I own pistol’s and long guns. I took the DLNR hunter course and I took OGC’s handgun course.
I received a certified letter on 3/29/2016 from HPD. Dated from March 10th, I signed for it at the post office on 3/29/2016. http://i.imgur.com/DoMfuo4.jpg
Any insight would be nice. I would like to ask anyone willing to help post this thread link everywhere they can I am not sure if this would get kicked from GD.
I attempted to reach out the the NRA-ILA since I am a Life Memeber. No response yet. Going to try to reach our to HRA Hawaii Rifle Association but I am not a member and do not know what they can do for me.
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I think you need to edit your post because it just looks like you are asking if you can still acquire long guns.
You may want to type out the text of that letter you received.
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Thank you, that is not my intention at all. Letter is attached via imgur link. HPD sent a letter to me demanding I surrender my firearms. I have never been convicted or under psychiatric care, this is because Kaiser denied to sign off.
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Embedding the letter he received.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160331/c38a60e307d12f9ba595b20f00ffa61a.jpg)
This is messed up. Looks like he is being asked to surrender all his firearms because of Kaiser and HPD again
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Wolfwood powers, activate!
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Sorry, you got caught up in this, and this is exactly what was being said would happen.
You should contact Richard Holcomb (2A lawyer) immediately, also wouldn't hurt to contact the HRA as well.
(808) 545-4040
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Sorry, you got caught up in this, and this is exactly what was being said would happen.
You should contact Richard Holcomb (2A lawyer) immediately, also wouldn't hurt to contact the HRA as well.
(808) 545-4040
Mahalo heavies
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Sorry, you got caught up in this, and this is exactly what was being said would happen.
You should contact Richard Holcomb (2A lawyer) immediately, also wouldn't hurt to contact the HRA as well.
(808) 545-4040
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I was incorrect in my initial post. I did not visit HPD on Sunday, that was when I was at WGS. HPD was the following week, I will try look up tomorrow they day I was at HPD. I need to correct this in the three threads I started on ar15.com
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Um has this issue started up again?
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Um has this issue started up again?
sounds like it
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posted in legal but i hope more see it here.
I went down to apply for a permit to acquire for handgun for a Ruger 22/45 from Windward Gun Shop on February Sunday 21st and paid for it Tuesday or Wednesday, then received a missed call from Honolulu Police Department. I called them back and spoke to an Officer stating that I needed clearance from my Medical Care provider, which is Kaiser. I called Kaiser and asked them to send over what HPD needed and they said their policy has changed. I called back to HPD and asked who will give clearance and they said they cannot refer people to doctors.
So at that time I withdrew my permit to acquire handgun and told them I am going to cancel the firearm purchase, HPD said OK no problem. I went back down to WGS either the 23rd or the 24th of February and informed them that Kaiser won’t release what HPD needs so I will have to cancel the purchase. They gave me a full refund and said they were sorry. I thought I was cleared and done with HPD.
I believed that I would just not be able to purchase the pistol or any other pistol until the Kaiser and HPD’s issues were resolved. I believed that I would still be able to purchase long guns with my current long gun permit to acquire.
I still have an existing permit to acquire long gun until August 2016. I own pistol’s and long guns. I took the DLNR hunter course and I took OGC’s handgun course.
I received a certified letter on 3/29/2016 from HPD. Dated from March 10th, I signed for it at the post office on 3/29/2016. http://i.imgur.com/DoMfuo4.jpg
Any insight would be nice. I would like to ask anyone willing to help post this thread link everywhere they can I am not sure if this would get kicked from GD.
I attempted to reach out the the NRA-ILA since I am a Life Memeber. No response yet. Going to try to reach our to HRA Hawaii Rifle Association but I am not a member and do not know what they can do for me.
Hate to say it but most likely the easiest option for you and all others in similar situations is to dump horrible Kaiser insurance and go with another provider more 2a friendly.
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Kaiser is the only option according to my businesses HR dept. :shake:
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Per the law you have 30 days to turn in the firearms when this kind of thing happens. However, as indicated on the letter you can be cleared of this issue when you get a clearance letter from your appropriate doctor. I hate to have to suggest this but what you might want to do in order to avoid the mess is to see a mental health or other type of physician who can write you a letter and send that to HPD before the expiration of the 30 days. You will likely have to pay out of pocket. I do recall seeing a post about a guy who would be willing to see patients regarding this but I don't know where it went.
Now out of principle, you should not have to do this and Kaiser should have to turn in your clearance. The problem with this is that while you are fighting Kaiser, your guns will likely be sitting in the HPD evidence room. If that is not an option then maybe the $125 or so dr. visit would be worth it in the meantime?
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Is this the start of a gun confiscation process by HPD? :shake: :shake: :shake:
Why is he getting a letter? The last time this occurred no one I know of received a letter.
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Per the law you have 30 days to turn in the firearms when this kind of thing happens. However, as indicated on the letter you can be cleared of this issue when you get a clearance letter from your appropriate doctor. I hate to have to suggest this but what you might want to do in order to avoid the mess is to see a mental health or other type of physician who can write you a letter and send that to HPD before the expiration of the 30 days. You will likely have to pay out of pocket. I do recall seeing a post about a guy who would be willing to see patients regarding this but I don't know where it went.
Now out of principle, you should not have to do this and Kaiser should have to turn in your clearance. The problem with this is that while you are fighting Kaiser, your guns will likely be sitting in the HPD evidence room. If that is not an option then maybe the $125 or so dr. visit would be worth it in the meantime?
You're not helping.
Instead of bringing a gas can why dont you stand by the fire hydrant?
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Is this the start of a gun confiscation process by HPD? :shake: :shake: :shake:
Why is he getting a letter? The last time this occurred no one I know of received a letter.
+1
This is the First time a confiscation letter was reported for denial of a permit due to Kaiser situation.
This crap sounds serious.
If HPD is resorting to this :wtf:
Definitely call Mr. Holcomb
And consider getting an outside physician to provide you a letter
There are numerous threads and posts about doing that on here somewhere.
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Wait, you signed for it on the 29th, when the letter is dated the 10th? That's 19 of your 30 days gone!
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If you need a doctor, I sent you a pm.
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As Tom mentioned, you have a deadline to meet with regard to being able to keep your firearms. You need to do a couple of things ASAP. First, make arrangements to transfer your guns to someone. Simultaneously you need to figure out what they are basing your alleged disqualification on. Contact HPD and ask who made the determination that you had a disqualification and also contact Kaiser to ask the same question. Get a copy of your medical records so you can review them for accuracy. If you need help reviewing your medical records I would be willing to assist you.
I would also suggest you contact Mr. Holcomb to at least begin planning for any needed legal intervention.
This is an ongoing problem that HRA has been dealing with off and on for a while. We believed it was settled but apparently that may not be the case.
How long have you been in Hawaii and why aren't you a member of HRA? Not to hit you when you're down, but why is it that Hawaii gun owners don't want to support HRA until they have a problem and want "someone" to help them?
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Hey SWHunter,
I merged your topics to keep everything in one place. Sorry about your troubles and your frustration.
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DO NOT transfer any firearms!!!!!! (YET)
If you are being denied based on kaiser not clearing your medical information you are not in violation of the law and as such not required to disposes of your current firearms, Your current rifle permit is valid un-till you receive a letter saying otherwise (HPS as the issuing authority has the right to revoke permits with good cause, their is not however a ruling on what "good cause" means)
If your doctor has failed to provide medical clearance they are not saying that you are prohibited, they are saying they will not make that determination, HPD is actually violating the law by asking your insurance provider and not your medical provider (doctor) for clearance. For you to be prohibited you MUST be in violation not failed a clerance, Your doctor must say WHY you are prohibited, not just that we wont answer the question,
I would call HPD and ask them to clarify what section of 134-7 you have violated for them to determine you are ineligible to own firearms.
I would then call Richard Holcomb@ (808) 545-4040
§134-7 Ownership or possession prohibited, when; penalty. (a) No person who is a fugitive from justice or is a person prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition under federal law shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(b) No person who is under indictment for, or has waived indictment for, or has been bound over to the circuit court for, or has been convicted in this State or elsewhere of having committed a felony, or any crime of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(c) No person who:
(1) Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411; or
(3) Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes;
shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor, unless the person has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect.
(d) No person who is less than twenty-five years old and has been adjudicated by the family court to have committed a felony, two or more crimes of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(e) No minor who:
(1) Is or has been under treatment for addiction to any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Is a fugitive from justice; or
(3) Has been determined not to have been responsible for a criminal act or has been committed to any institution on account of a mental disease, disorder, or defect;
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Wait, you signed for it on the 29th, when the letter is dated the 10th? That's 19 of your 30 days gone!
Have to look at the envelope to see when it was post marked. Thats the date you go by
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but why is it that Hawaii gun owners don't want to support HRA until they have a problem and want "someone" to help them?
Most people have no idea it exists untill they have a problem and start looking for people to help them. its no really a main stream organistation
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London you forgot F & g parts
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Most people have no idea it exists untill they have a problem and start looking for people to help them. its no really a main stream organistation
do you live under a rock? The HRA monthly newsletter is available at most all LGS. Have you never been to a gun show or the shooting sports fair?
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London you forgot F & g parts
I only added the medical parts, F deals with restraining orders, and G is what you must do if prohibited, both of which are irrelevant,
If he/she has not been diagnosed with or under treatment for then anything covered by C or E then the order for surrender/disposal is illegal and should not be complied with. HPD can not order surrender of firearms without due cause/process. Failurure of a medical professional to provide information requested is not a diagnosis. The OP needs to clarify with HPD what section of 134-7 they are in violation of.
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do you live under a rock? The HRA monthly newsletter is available at most all LGS. Have you never been to a gun show or the shooting sports fair?
1.4 million people in the state, i stand by what i said.
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do you live under a rock? The HRA monthly newsletter is available at most all LGS. Have you never been to a gun show or the shooting sports fair?
I live ON a rock. On this rock: Never seen the HRA monthly newsletter at any LGS. Never seen a gun show advertised here. Never seen a shooting sports fair advertised here. Never seen an official approved outdoor shooting range here, much less one provided by the government. Never seen a CCW license issued here. Need I go on? :stopjack:
Best wishes to the OP in dealing such a big pile of crap. Gotta be stressful. Still another example of Hawaii's dedication to harassing firearm owners without the slightest relevance to "public safety". [BAD WORD BAD WORD]!
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Give us a call. I'm actually heading to the AT trail next week but Rick is around. You might want to set up a meeting sooner than later so I am around to discuss this with Rick before I take off.
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I didn't tell him to transfer his guns, I suggested that he make arrangements to do so. But, by all means, suggest that he not make any arrangements so that if HPD takes a hard line stance in this instance and decide to come for them exactly 30 days after what they consider proper notice, he can have all his guns lovingly cared for at HPD's evidence locker.
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DO NOT transfer any firearms!!!!!! (YET)
If you are being denied based on kaiser not clearing your medical information you are not in violation of the law and as such not required to disposes of your current firearms, Your current rifle permit is valid un-till you receive a letter saying otherwise (HPS as the issuing authority has the right to revoke permits with good cause, their is not however a ruling on what "good cause" means)
If your doctor has failed to provide medical clearance they are not saying that you are prohibited, they are saying they will not make that determination, HPD is actually violating the law by asking your insurance provider and not your medical provider (doctor) for clearance. For you to be prohibited you MUST be in violation not failed a clerance, Your doctor must say WHY you are prohibited, not just that we wont answer the question,
I would call HPD and ask them to clarify what section of 134-7 you have violated for them to determine you are ineligible to own firearms.
I would then call Richard Holcomb@ (808) 545-4040
§134-7 Ownership or possession prohibited, when; penalty. (a) No person who is a fugitive from justice or is a person prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition under federal law shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(b) No person who is under indictment for, or has waived indictment for, or has been bound over to the circuit court for, or has been convicted in this State or elsewhere of having committed a felony, or any crime of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(c) No person who:
(1) Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411; or
(3) Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes;
shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor, unless the person has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect.
(d) No person who is less than twenty-five years old and has been adjudicated by the family court to have committed a felony, two or more crimes of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
(e) No minor who:
(1) Is or has been under treatment for addiction to any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
(2) Is a fugitive from justice; or
(3) Has been determined not to have been responsible for a criminal act or has been committed to any institution on account of a mental disease, disorder, or defect;
For what it's worth I know OP personally and I can tell you that he does not meet any of that criteria at all, I've known him and his family for many years and this letter came as a completely unexpected and very nasty surprise. I've just been a lurker here really but thanks to all of you for offering advice and support to OP. I don't want to speak for him but I know he's taking the advice given here very seriously and he is acting on it as I type this.
thank you all.
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The applicable law is 134-7.2, this is what states that the police department can have all guns seized or sold/given away if he was denied a permit. He has 30 days to comply before the police may seize his firearms. I don't know what the penalty is, that might be somewhere else in the laws, I will see what I can find later on that. Would the police department search warrant this guys home? Don't know. Was it sent by certified mail?
§134-7.3 Seizure of firearms upon disqualification. (a) If any applicant is denied a permit, the chiefs of police of the respective counties shall send, by certified mail, a notice setting forth the reasons for the denial and may require that the applicant voluntarily surrender all firearms and ammunition to the chief of police where the applicant resides or dispose of all firearms and ammunition. If an applicant fails to voluntarily surrender or dispose of all firearms and ammunition within thirty days from the date notice was mailed, the chief of police may seize all firearms and ammunition.
(b) Any person disqualified from ownership, possession, or control of firearms and ammunition under section 134-7 shall voluntarily surrender all firearms and ammunition to the chief of police where the person resides or dispose of all firearms and ammunition. If any person fails to voluntarily surrender or dispose of all firearms and ammunition within thirty days from the date of disqualification, the chief of police may seize all firearms and ammunition.
(c) For the purposes of this section, "dispose" means selling the firearms to a gun dealer licensed under section 134-31, transferring ownership of the firearms to any person who meets the requirements of section 134-2, or surrendering all firearms to the chief of police where the person resides for storage or disposal; provided, for a person subject to section 134-7(f), "dispose" shall not include transferring ownership of the firearms to any person who meets the requirements of section 134-2.
(d) The chief of police of the respective counties shall adopt procedures to implement and administer the provisions of this section by December 31, 2001. [L 2000, c 127, §1; am L 2004, c 4, §2]
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Note the use of the word "may" in every authorization for confiscation above. In other words, it's totally optional. If he chooses, the chief "may not" confiscate. I wonder which he will choose in this case, given the circumstances, which obviously do not warrant confiscation? Or any and every other case.
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The applicable law is 134-7.2, this is what states that the police department can have all guns seized or sold/given away if he was denied a permit. He has 30 days to comply before the police may seize his firearms. I don't know what the penalty is, that might be somewhere else in the laws, I will see what I can find later on that. Would the police department search warrant this guys home? Don't know. Was it sent by certified mail?
§134-7.3 Seizure of firearms upon disqualification. (a) If any applicant is denied a permit, the chiefs of police of the respective counties shall send, by certified mail, a notice setting forth the reasons for the denial and may require that the applicant voluntarily surrender all firearms and ammunition to the chief of police where the applicant resides or dispose of all firearms and ammunition. If an applicant fails to voluntarily surrender or dispose of all firearms and ammunition within thirty days from the date notice was mailed, the chief of police may seize all firearms and ammunition.
(b) Any person disqualified from ownership, possession, or control of firearms and ammunition under section 134-7 shall voluntarily surrender all firearms and ammunition to the chief of police where the person resides or dispose of all firearms and ammunition. If any person fails to voluntarily surrender or dispose of all firearms and ammunition within thirty days from the date of disqualification, the chief of police may seize all firearms and ammunition.
(c) For the purposes of this section, "dispose" means selling the firearms to a gun dealer licensed under section 134-31, transferring ownership of the firearms to any person who meets the requirements of section 134-2, or surrendering all firearms to the chief of police where the person resides for storage or disposal; provided, for a person subject to section 134-7(f), "dispose" shall not include transferring ownership of the firearms to any person who meets the requirements of section 134-2.
(d) The chief of police of the respective counties shall adopt procedures to implement and administer the provisions of this section by December 31, 2001. [L 2000, c 127, §1; am L 2004, c 4, §2]
The letter states that he is in violation of 134-7 and because of that he must surrender/transfer his firearms. If he hasent violated 134-7 why would he need to surrender/transfer them. Thats why he needs to speak to a lawyer. With regards to a search warrant im sure they would/will he has untill day 30 to transfer them, Rifles can be done same day, He is already within the last 14 days so transferring a pistol would have to be to an FFL who dont need the 14 day waiting period. OR take them out of state where Hawaii's BULLSHIT laws dont apply.
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I have Kaiser and did not have an issue with my permits. I applied on March 11th. Maybe it was an issue in February and no longer an issue???
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The applicable law is 134-7.2, this is what states that the police department can have all guns seized or sold/given away if he was denied a permit. He has 30 days to comply before the police may seize his firearms. I don't know what the penalty is, that might be somewhere else in the laws, I will see what I can find later on that. Would the police department search warrant this guys home? Don't know. Was it sent by certified mail?
I know the OP personally. The letter was certified mail he had to sign for it at the post office. And as far as him explaining it to me. I don't think his permit was even denied because of the Kaiser BS. I believe he was told by HPD that his permit wouldn't go through because of Kaiser problems and he decided to cancel the permit to acquire for the handgun. (He will correct me if I am wrong)
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Thank you all for your input and concern.
I spoke briefly to Wolfwood, he called me after I sent an email to Rick Holcomb and himself. I am not sure if my email's after the first one are getting through to Rick or if he is busy in court or perhaps junk mail. Hope to hear back soon.
I am pulling my Medical record from Kaiser. Unknown time to acquire them was quoted 4-8 weeks, I asked for them to be expedited; will have to follow up Monday.
I did cancel the permit to acquire within a day or two of the HPD call and Kaiser. I believe that Kaiser is refusing and making people use outside doctors and pay out of pocket. When I was at Kaiser an hour ago I asked for their policy on medical clearance and was given a general letter that i will try to post soon along with a number for Kaiser's customer service.
I forgot to add that I recently registered a lower in January with my Long gun permit to acquire that "was" valid until August 2016.
If all else fails i will try to talk to a few gun shops I regularly do business with and see if they would be willing to help me out and transfer the firearms to them until this is resolved.
I am still unclear on the amount of time I have. It was certified mail that I signed for on the 29th. The Final Notice was delivered on the 24th. I did not receive it until the 28th. The letterhead is the 10th so is the postage.
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Thank you all for your input and concern.
I spoke briefly to Wolfwood, he called me after I sent an email to Rick Holcomb and himself. I am not sure if my email's after the first one are getting through to Rick or if he is busy in court or perhaps junk mail. Hope to hear back soon.
I am pulling my Medical record from Kaiser. Unknown time to acquire them was quoted 4-8 weeks, I asked for them to be expedited; will have to follow up Monday.
I did cancel the permit to acquire within a day or two of the HPD call and Kaiser. I believe that Kaiser is refusing and making people use outside doctors and pay out of pocket. When I was at Kaiser an hour ago I asked for their policy on medical clearance and was given a general letter that i will try to post soon along with a number for Kaiser's customer service.
I forgot to add that I recently registered a lower in January with my Long gun permit to acquire that "was" valid until August 2016.
If all else fails i will try to talk to a few gun shops I regularly do business with and see if they would be willing to help me out and transfer the firearms to them until this is resolved.
I am still unclear on the amount of time I have. It was certified mail that I signed for on the 29th. The Final Notice was delivered on the 24th. I did not receive it until the 28th. The letterhead is the 10th so is the postage.
From my understanding it would be from the date it was sent out./post marked
And i know its kind of to late, but you should not of canceled the permit for the pistol you should of let them deny it. They then would of sent you a letter saying why, would of been handy to have.
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The letter states that he is in violation of 134-7 and because of that he must surrender/transfer his firearms. If he hasent violated 134-7 why would he need to surrender/transfer them. Thats why he needs to speak to a lawyer. With regards to a search warrant im sure they would/will he has untill day 30 to transfer them, Rifles can be done same day, He is already within the last 14 days so transferring a pistol would have to be to an FFL who dont need the 14 day waiting period. OR take them out of state where Hawaii's BULLSHIT laws dont apply.
I don't think that matters. Just because a police officer quotes a wrong law doesn't mean the action is invalid. If a cop told you that you were arrest for assault 2nd but he should have said assault 3rd, is the case thrown out of court? Now as a matter of procedure he might be able to call back and get them to send a new letter quoting the proper section and thus extend the required dispose of date, but it is not going to help him avoid the issue.
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Thank you all for your input and concern.
I spoke briefly to Wolfwood, he called me after I sent an email to Rick Holcomb and himself. I am not sure if my email's after the first one are getting through to Rick or if he is busy in court or perhaps junk mail. Hope to hear back soon.
I am pulling my Medical record from Kaiser. Unknown time to acquire them was quoted 4-8 weeks, I asked for them to be expedited; will have to follow up Monday.
I did cancel the permit to acquire within a day or two of the HPD call and Kaiser. I believe that Kaiser is refusing and making people use outside doctors and pay out of pocket. When I was at Kaiser an hour ago I asked for their policy on medical clearance and was given a general letter that i will try to post soon along with a number for Kaiser's customer service.
I forgot to add that I recently registered a lower in January with my Long gun permit to acquire that "was" valid until August 2016.
If all else fails i will try to talk to a few gun shops I regularly do business with and see if they would be willing to help me out and transfer the firearms to them until this is resolved.
I am still unclear on the amount of time I have. It was certified mail that I signed for on the 29th. The Final Notice was delivered on the 24th. I did not receive it until the 28th. The letterhead is the 10th so is the postage.
The fact that you cancelled the request rather than HPD denying it could be the key to blocking this. I hate to have a martyr but if they do take away the guns in violation of this fact maybe that could lead to a lawsuit and cause HPD to back off through a lesson in legal costs.
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I don't think that matters. Just because a police officer quotes a wrong law doesn't mean the action is invalid. If a cop told you that you were arrest for assault 2nd but he should have said assault 3rd, is the case thrown out of court? Now as a matter of procedure he might be able to call back and get them to send a new letter quoting the proper section and thus extend the required dispose of date, but it is not going to help him avoid the issue.
Of course it matters, 124-7 sets the law for exclusion and seizure/surrender, IF heis not excluded for any reason stated in that section they can not give a legal order for him to surrender/seize his firearms.
Without knowing what his medical provider sent/said to HPD and what section of 134-7 he has supposedly violated we cant know for sure, But my feeling along with most (im sure having seen this in the past) is that his health provider did not provide clearance and HPD is using a lack of information to make a determination of a medical invalidation, Essentially saying because we dont have evidence otherwise you must have something wrong and as such are deciding to violate his rights,
We will have to wait and see what the outcome is after he has got legal council
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Guilty until proven innocent?
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[quote author=SWHunter link=topic=22609.msg202995#msg202995 date=1459567119
I am pulling my Medical record from Kaiser. Unknown time to acquire them was quoted 4-8 weeks, I asked for them to be expedited; will have to follow up Monday.
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Instead of pulling your medical records ask them for a copy of what they sent to HPD, If they can send it to HPD within 7 days (i belive that is what HPD request in the letter they send out) im sure they can get it to you as quick, Not to mention it should be easy for them to access as they just sent it. This will tell you exzacley what HPD has seen and let you know what the basis for their denial is.
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Guilty until proven innocent?
Thats the way they role, Same thing with mine, We dont know if you committed any criminal acts outside of the country (even tho i cleared background check with ICE and the records show that i dont have any outside of the USA) so were gona deny your permit untill you prove otherwise
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I have Kaiser and did not have an issue with my permits. I applied on March 11th. Maybe it was an issue in February and no longer an issue???
HPD went back to their original standpoint: if you ever saw BHS or a psychologist at kaiser for any reason, you may be red flagged, HPD's discretion.
if you never saw a psychologist at kaiser or straub, you're good to go.
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Your case could make a devastating investigative news story.
But your case better be rock solid under close scrutiny because if you go public and it is later revealed that you had a skeleton in the closet, it could cause irreparable damage to the 2A community.
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OP asked to have these posted here for reference:
(http://i.imgur.com/SQu4nbj.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/WqIqZBZ.png)
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OK, So from my understanding HPD is in the wrong,
The medical wavier you sign allows them access to your medical records, for the purpose of making a determination,
http://honolulupd.org/downloads/medicalinformation_HPD089R05_13.pdf (http://honolulupd.org/downloads/medicalinformation_HPD089R05_13.pdf)
I, ___________________________________, do freely and in compliance with sections 134-2 and 134-7
(PLEASE PRINT NAME)
of the Hawaii Revised Statutes, authorize the Chief of Police in the City and County of Honolulu access
to any and all records which have a bearing on my mental health for the strict purpose of determining
my qualification to acquire, own, possess, or have under my control, a firearm.
HPD is meant to use the information provided to make a determination based on HRS 134-7 on weather you are medically excluded from owning a firearm, HPD may only ask for a copy of your medical records relating to conditions that would excluded you under HRS 134-7. Asking for ANYTHING else is a violation of your privacy
HPDS requirement that the doctor writes a letter stating anything is also a violation of your rights and using a lack of letter to determine the status of a permit is also a violation of your rights, The law allows denial of a permit and confiscation/surredor of firearms only a very strict set of rules, HPD, HPD useing a lack of information to make a determination is wrong, its assumed guilt un-till proven innocent,
The letter that HPD sends out to doctors should read along the lines of (and i belive it once did)
Your client (NAME) has applied for a firearms permit with the Honolulu police department, In compliance HRS 134-2 & 134-7, your client has signed a medical release form (included with their letter) that will allow us to make a determination on theire medical ability to own a firearm in compliance with Hawaii's laws,
(WORDING OF EXCLUSIONS FOR DOCTORS REFERENCE)
If you believe your client has or may have had in the past any condition that would excluded them from owning a firearm under HRS 134-2 or 134-7 you have 7 days to notify HPD including any medical documents in relation to this condition. If no infromation is received we will issue your client a firearms permit on (DATE OF 14th day)
(HPD FAX/MAILING info)
This is what the law states :
§134-3.5] Disclosure for firearm permit and registration purposes. A health care provider or public health authority shall disclose health information, including protected health care information, relating to an individual's mental health history, to the appropriate county chief of police in response to a request for the information from the chief of police; provided that:
(1) The information shall be used only for the purpose of evaluating the individual's fitness to acquire or own a firearm; and
(2) The individual has signed a waiver permitting release of the health information for that purpose. [L 2001, c 252, §1]
AGAIN, the law only requires them to Disclose information not make a statement of fact, HPD's requiremnt that they do so is illegal, an invasion of privacy and violating your constitutional rights to bear arms
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this may be after the fact but, for future applications. a friend of mine used to be an FFL a long time ago and he listed that he had no doctor. HPD gave him a lot of crap on the matter but he persevered and never had to do any medical clearance for his firearms.
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this may be after the fact but, for future applications. a friend of mine used to be an FFL a long time ago and he listed that he had no doctor. HPD gave him a lot of crap on the matter but he persevered and never had to do any medical clearance for his firearms.
Even if you do have a doctor that you see on a regular basis you are not required to provide their information, The only requirement by law is that you sign the release (you must complete your personal information for identification purposes) , Every other piece of information on the form is optional (doctors information),
If you have a doctor , (Named on your insurance card as your PCP or your under treatment for anything [including dental]) DO NOT say you do not have one, You will/can lose your gun rights for the rest of your life. You are not required to give more information then required by law but providing false information is a felony.
§134-17 Penalties.
a) If any person gives false information or offers false evidence of the person's identity in complying with any of the requirements of this part, that person shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, provided, however that if any person intentionally gives false information or offers false evidence concerning their psychiatric or criminal history in complying with any of the requirements of this part, that person shall be guilty of a class C felony.
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Even if you do have a doctor that you see on a regular basis you are not required to provide their information, The only requirement by law is that you sign the release (you must complete your personal information for identification purposes) , Every other piece of information on the form is optional (doctors information),
If you have a doctor , (Named on your insurance card as your PCP or your under treatment for anything [including dental]) DO NOT say you do not have one, You will/can lose your gun rights for the rest of your life. You are not required to give more information then required by law but providing false information is a felony.
§134-17 Penalties.
a) If any person gives false information or offers false evidence of the person's identity in complying with any of the requirements of this part, that person shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, provided, however that if any person intentionally gives false information or offers false evidence concerning their psychiatric or criminal history in complying with any of the requirements of this part, that person shall be guilty of a class C felony.
good point. i forgot to mention my friend is an "old" fart and his PCP retired which is why he didn't have one and he never goes to the doctors.
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Not to hijack my friend's thread, but I thought it was a little bit of a related question. Does anybody know if straub patients are in the clear about this medical clearance yet? Or should I cancel my doctor through straub and go find a new non-straub Doctor, since I am not required by my insurance to have straub?
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Not to hijack my friend's thread, but I thought it was a little bit of a related question. Does anybody know if straub patients are in the clear about this medical clearance yet? Or should I cancel my doctor through straub and go find a new non-straub Doctor, since I am not required by my insurance to have straub?
Straub if good to go to my knowledge
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I talked with the guys at HPD yesterday and they said there is nothing going on with Kaiser and Straub, everything is okay. They mentioned the 2a post with the letters and said as far as they know that has been resolved and was only a single transaction, no one else was affected. I have Straub and they said no worries.
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Definitely not resolved. I was at HPD in the morning yesterday and was told that I have 30 days from when I signed the certified letter. I asked HPD to send me a letter stating what subsection of 134-7 that I have violated. The Sgt. Told me he would ask the Major if he would send it out. I am awaiting the letter.
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I got an odd idea. The law says this,
§134-3.5] Disclosure for firearm permit and registration purposes. A health care provider or public health authority shall disclose health information, including protected health care information, relating to an individual's mental health history, to the appropriate county chief of police in response to a request for the information from the chief of police; provided that:
(1) The information shall be used only for the purpose of evaluating the individual's fitness to acquire or own a firearm; and
(2) The individual has signed a waiver permitting release of the health information for that purpose. [L 2001, c 252, §1]
So, if you sign the form that permits your doctor to release the specified information and the doctor refuses, then the doctor is in violation. The law says that the healthcare provide SHALL disclose the healthcare information. So if your doctor refuses or the doctor's boss (Kaiser) refuses then ask a police officer to initiate a criminal case against the healthcare provider for violation of the law. When Kaiser or the doctor learns that they are having a criminal case made against them, maybe it will change their mood.
The beat officer might be irritated about this and probably wont know this law offhand so if you are going to do this, best to actually have the relevant laws handy. Also consider doing it at the doctor's office while the doctor is present so that the officer will be able to "interrogate" the suspect. This is kind of a waste of work for the officer but the doctor is refusing to comply with the law and now your rights to own a firearm are being denied. If you like your doctor maybe you don't want to do this but I am just thinking what other angles can be done in this issue for those being screwed by Kaiser.
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Definitely not resolved. I was at HPD in the morning yesterday and was told that I have 30 days from when I signed the certified letter. I asked HPD to send me a letter stating what subsection of 134-7 that I have violated. The Sgt. Told me he would ask the Major if he would send it out. I am awaiting the letter.
LOL " if he would send it out.", They are required to let you know, its called due process, They can not remove your rights without letting you know why,
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I got an odd idea. The law says this,
§134-3.5] Disclosure for firearm permit and registration purposes. A health care provider or public health authority shall disclose health information, including protected health care information, relating to an individual's mental health history, to the appropriate county chief of police in response to a request for the information from the chief of police; provided that:
(1) The information shall be used only for the purpose of evaluating the individual's fitness to acquire or own a firearm; and
(2) The individual has signed a waiver permitting release of the health information for that purpose. [L 2001, c 252, §1]
So, if you sign the form that permits your doctor to release the specified information and the doctor refuses, then the doctor is in violation. The law says that the healthcare provide SHALL disclose the healthcare information. So if your doctor refuses or the doctor's boss (Kaiser) refuses then ask a police officer to initiate a criminal case against the healthcare provider for violation of the law. When Kaiser or the doctor learns that they are having a criminal case made against them, maybe it will change their mood.
The beat officer might be irritated about this and probably wont know this law offhand so if you are going to do this, best to actually have the relevant laws handy. Also consider doing it at the doctor's office while the doctor is present so that the officer will be able to "interrogate" the suspect. This is kind of a waste of work for the officer but the doctor is refusing to comply with the law and now your rights to own a firearm are being denied. If you like your doctor maybe you don't want to do this but I am just thinking what other angles can be done in this issue for those being screwed by Kaiser.
The Doctor is not violating the law, HPD is. The doctor is required to provide your medical information, They were doing that, they were sending over your relevant medical record for HPD to make a determination on whether you are medically fit in the eyes of the law. HPD did not want that they want the doctor to make a statement saying that you are medically fit, The doctors are not willing to do that. (even tho their is a law protecting them form civil lawsuits (HRS 134-18), if they make this statement and you latter go on a rampage and kill a bunch of people and they declared you fit their life/career is over)
In this case (it looks like( HPD is requesting the wrong information and denying a firearms permit based purely on a lack of information not a negative response, Violating the OP's constitutional rights, 2A for denying him the right to bear arms, 5A denying him his right to due process and 14A denying him his right to due process.
§134-18 Qualified immunity for physicians, psychologists, or psychiatrists who provide information on permit applicants. There shall be no civil liability for any physician, psychologist, or psychiatrist who provides information or renders an opinion in response to an inquiry made for purposes of issuing a firearm permit under section 134-2 or for purposes of investigating the continuing mental health of the holder of a valid firearm permit provided that the physician, psychologist, or psychiatrist acted without malice.
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No letter yet, maybe tomorrow. If not I will phone the Sgt. Monday and request again. Times ticking and I am getting worried.
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The Doctor is not violating the law, HPD is. The doctor is required to provide your medical information, They were doing that, they were sending over your relevant medical record for HPD to make a determination on whether you are medically fit in the eyes of the law. HPD did not want that they want the doctor to make a statement saying that you are medically fit, The doctors are not willing to do that. (even tho their is a law protecting them form civil lawsuits (HRS 134-18), if they make this statement and you latter go on a rampage and kill a bunch of people and they declared you fit their life/career is over)
In this case (it looks like( HPD is requesting the wrong information and denying a firearms permit based purely on a lack of information not a negative response, Violating the OP's constitutional rights, 2A for denying him the right to bear arms, 5A denying him his right to due process and 14A denying him his right to due process.
§134-18 Qualified immunity for physicians, psychologists, or psychiatrists who provide information on permit applicants. There shall be no civil liability for any physician, psychologist, or psychiatrist who provides information or renders an opinion in response to an inquiry made for purposes of issuing a firearm permit under section 134-2 or for purposes of investigating the continuing mental health of the holder of a valid firearm permit provided that the physician, psychologist, or psychiatrist acted without malice.
Ok, I think I get it now. So Kaiser was providing the medical information, just not willing to give an opinion on someone's mental fitness?
This is a real rock and a hard place.
On the one hand, the law doesn't require doctors to give an opinion, but if they don't, someone can't practice their rights.
I see what you are saying by suggesting that HPD is making a demand that isn't specifically mentioned in the law, but it is kind of necessary. The police are not doctors and are not really qualified to determine someone's mental fitness so they really cannot make an opinion either. If HPD formed an opinion they could risk being sued. The law appears to intend to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people and without a solid medical opinion HPD cannot really follow the intent of the law.
I suppose they could hire a psychologist to review applications....
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Ok, I think I get it now. So Kaiser was providing the medical information, just not willing to give an opinion on someone's mental fitness?
we've been discussing this fact since late november/early december...
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we've been discussing this fact since late november/early december...
My mistake, I thought they were refusing to provide information at first.
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I suppose they could hire a psychologist to review applications....
HPD has a few of those on staff
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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HPD has a few of those on staff
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They would probably need to hire another to handle all the checks but it certainly is an idea. Of course it wouldn't be an issue if people's doctors just filled out the statement.
I wonder if Kaiser has any similar issues nationally. Some of their commercials could be characterized as being progressive.
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They would probably need to hire another to handle all the checks but it certainly is an idea. Of course it wouldn't be an issue if people's doctors just filled out the statement.
I wonder if Kaiser has any similar issues nationally. Some of their commercials could be characterized as being progressive.
HPD is in violation of the law by asking them to make a statement, The form you sign is to allow them access to your relevant mendical information, it is not to ask your doctor to make a medical determination, HPD has to make that decision, Denying a permit based on no information or because they asked for the wrong information is a violationn of people's rights,
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I have several firearms in my possession for several years. I don't know what has changed from when I registered a lower receiver in January to when I applied for the 22/45 in February. No Doctor visits, no convictions, no tickets... no nothing.
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HPD is in violation of the law by asking them to make a statement, The form you sign is to allow them access to your relevant mendical information, it is not to ask your doctor to make a medical determination, HPD has to make that decision, Denying a permit based on no information or because they asked for the wrong information is a violationn of people's rights,
True, but they are also not well equipped to make the decision either. Would you want an untrained officer making a decision about whether you are mentally stable enough to own a firearm?
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The fact that you cancelled the request rather than HPD denying it could be the key to blocking this. I hate to have a martyr but if they do take away the guns in violation of this fact maybe that could lead to a lawsuit and cause HPD to back off through a lesson in legal costs.
I am starting the Appalachian Trail on Tuesday. As you guys know we don't take any money from our clients for these gun cases. So its a bit of a financial and time commitment for Rick to take on without my help. After I get back from the AT maybe we will have time or if Rick gets a little more free time he might be able to do it on his own. Either that or you guys could have a fundraiser.
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True, but they are also not well equipped to make the decision either. Would you want an untrained officer making a decision about whether you are mentally stable enough to own a firearm?
No matter the case. What they are doing is wrong. They are tasked to implement the law, never to interpret or create, just implement.
If they are not equipped to handle their job properly, it should not be the citizens who suffer violation of their rights.
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I am asking this question from someone who knows the law well enough to answer correctly and completely.
What is required for HPD to get a warrant to come to your home to remove your guns? My understanding is that there are certain requirements they must have before a warrant will be issued. Anyone know what those requirements are?
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No matter the case. What they are doing is wrong. They are tasked to implement the law, never to interpret or create, just implement.
If they are not equipped to handle their job properly, it should not be the citizens who suffer violation of their rights.
probably a message you should tell your fellow global moderators and others who frequent this forum.
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I am starting the Appalachian Trail on Tuesday. As you guys know we don't take any money from our clients for these gun cases. So its a bit of a financial and time commitment for Rick to take on without my help. After I get back from the AT maybe we will have time or if Rick gets a little more free time he might be able to do it on his own. Either that or you guys could have a fundraiser.
What bout a kickstarter fundraiser? Maybe get some national attention even?
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f they are not equipped to handle their job properly, it should not be the citizens who suffer violation of their rights.
Very true, but it still leaves us between a rock and a hard place. Not sure what the options are though.
Either we have to fight them in court to get some sort of ruling that forces their hand or a change in the law.
Maybe if we could suggest to lawmakers a new system that is both more effective and more efficient it could make things easier for us and something they would think does a better job at keeping guns out of crazy people's hands.
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probably a message you should tell your fellow global moderators and others who frequent this forum.
As an owner of a forum I can state honestly that the laws you claim the mods are not upholding is an incorrect statement. This is a privately owned forum. The laws and constitution don't apply here. They can do whatever they want. If you don't like it you don't have visit, read, nor participate.
I really don't care if you disagree so don't bother replying.
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I am asking this question from someone who knows the law well enough to answer correctly and completely.
What is required for HPD to get a warrant to come to your home to remove your guns? My understanding is that there are certain requirements they must have before a warrant will be issued. Anyone know what those requirements are?
To get a Warrant all they would need to do is show why you are prohibited for possession/ownership, and that you have register firearms that have not been transferred.
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To get a Warrant all they would need to do is show why you are prohibited for possession/ownership, and that you have register firearms that have not been transferred.
And there is nothing in the law that requires the testimony of an eye witness? I was told by someone close that I trust that this is also a requirement. This is a specific Hawaii requirement.
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And there is nothing in the law that requires the testimony of an eye witness? I was told by someone close that I trust that this is also a requirement. This is a specific Hawaii requirement.
eye witness to what ?
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eye witness to what ?
My understanding is that someone has to be an eyewitness to the fact that you still have firearms (after the 30 day period is up) in your possession before HPD can obtain a search warrant to come in to your house to get them. That eyewitness has to come forward and provide testimony in order for the warrant to be issued.
I know this sounds a little convoluted but if it had not come from such a reliable source I would not have asked this question.
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My understanding is that someone has to be an eyewitness to the fact that you still have firearms (after the 30 day period is up) in your possession before HPD can obtain a search warrant to come in to your house to get them. That eyewitness has to come forward and provide testimony in order for the warrant to be issued.
I know this sounds a little convoluted but if it had not come from such a reliable source I would not have asked this question.
Well, with the registration requirements, HPD will have direct knowledge of whether or not you've transferred ownership. They become, in effect, eyewitnesses to the fact that you have not legally transferred the firearms, and certainly could make the reasonable assumption that you still are in possession.
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Well, with the registration requirements, HPD will have direct knowledge of whether or not you've transferred ownership. They become, in effect, eyewitnesses to the fact that you have not legally transferred the firearms, and certainly could make the reasonable assumption that you still are in possession.
True. However, I am trying to verify whether there is a requirement from an eyewitness (An actual person who has actually seen said person with their firearms) as to whether that person is still in possession of their firearms in order for HPD to obtain a warrant. If there is this requirement then all the reasonable assumptions are not enough to obtain a warrant. And as my memory is not what it used to be, it may be that the witness might have the requirement of seeing the firearms in said person's home before a warrant can be issued. Also, from what I remember the eyewitness has to provide testimony to the judge (Or whomever) before a warrant can be issued.
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And there is nothing in the law that requires the testimony of an eye witness? I was told by someone close that I trust that this is also a requirement. This is a specific Hawaii requirement.
Hawaii, in general, is one of the more difficult states to effect a warrant. That being said, it's the totality of the circumstances presented to the judge that will be used to grant a warrant. It could, but doesn't have to include eye witnesses. Unfortunately, with the registration database to refer to, it is very probable that the information from the database would be all that is required to have a judge issue a warrant. Furthermore, the Chief of Police can revoke a permit with little to no good cause according to statue. So, the fact that you have a disqualifying condition (whatever that may be), along with registration database information that you still have guns, and the Chief revoking your permits would be all the information needed to convince a judge to issue a warrant.
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Hawaii, in general, is one of the more difficult states to effect a warrant. That being said, it's the totality of the circumstances presented to the judge that will be used to grant a warrant. It could, but doesn't have to include eye witnesses. Unfortunately, with the registration database to refer to, it is very probable that the information from the database would be all that is required to have a judge issue a warrant. Furthermore, the Chief of Police can revoke a permit with little to no good cause according to statue. So, the fact that you have a disqualifying condition (whatever that may be), along with registration database information that you still have guns, and the Chief revoking your permits would be all the information needed to convince a judge to issue a warrant.
Thanks HiCarry. I just wanted to know if what I heard was correct as to whether an eyewitness was a requirement or not. I agree with You and Tom that all the other information is overwhelming to the extent that a warrant could be issued. My understanding from what I was told that having an eyewitness that can testify is required. That would change the whole dynamic of the OP's issue if it was a requirement.
Thanks everyone for all your comments. I think the person I spoke to was wrong or possibly correct under some different circumstances. :shaka:
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Thanks HiCarry. I just wanted to know if what I heard was correct as to whether an eyewitness was a requirement or not. I agree with You and Tom that all the other information is overwhelming to the extent that a warrant could be issued. My understanding from what I was told that having an eyewitness that can testify is required. That would change the whole dynamic of the OP's issue if it was a requirement.
Thanks everyone for all your comments. I think the person I spoke to was wrong or possibly correct under some different circumstances. :shaka:
The simple answer is no. an eye witness would not be required, Hawaii law requires registration of all firearms including notification of a sale, Id determined to be disqualified from ownership you would need to notify HPD of transfer of the firearms including to whom you transferred them to. If you failed to do so this alone would be grounds for a search/arrest warrant, Due to the fact that it is dealing with firearms this could result in a no knock warrant at 2am (when else do they get to use our swat team).
§134-2 Permits to acquire.
"in all cases where a pistol or revolver is acquired from another person within the State, the permit shall be signed in ink by the person to whom title to the pistol or revolver is transferred and shall be delivered to the person who is transferring title to the firearm, who shall verify that the person to whom the firearm is to be transferred is the person named in the permit and enter on the permit in the space provided the following information: name of the person to whom the title to the firearm was transferred; names of the manufacturer and importer; model; type of action; caliber or gauge; and serial number as applicable. The person who is transferring title to the firearm shall sign the permit in ink and cause the permit to be delivered or sent by registered mail to the issuing authority within forty-eight hours after transferring the firearm."
" In all cases where a rifle or shotgun is acquired from another person within the State, the person who is transferring title to the rifle or shotgun shall submit, within forty-eight hours after transferring the firearm, to the authority which issued the permit to acquire, the following information, in writing: name of the person who transferred the firearm, name of the person to whom the title to the firearm was transferred; names of the manufacturer and importer; model; type of action; caliber or gauge; and serial number as applicable."
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The simple answer is no. an eye witness would not be required, Hawaii law requires registration of all firearms including notification of a sale, Id determined to be disqualified from ownership you would need to notify HPD of transfer of the firearms including to whom you transferred them to. If you failed to do so this alone would be grounds for a search/arrest warrant, Due to the fact that it is dealing with firearms this could result in a no knock warrant at 2am (when else do they get to use our swat team).
§134-2 Permits to acquire.
"in all cases where a pistol or revolver is acquired from another person within the State, the permit shall be signed in ink by the person to whom title to the pistol or revolver is transferred and shall be delivered to the person who is transferring title to the firearm, who shall verify that the person to whom the firearm is to be transferred is the person named in the permit and enter on the permit in the space provided the following information: name of the person to whom the title to the firearm was transferred; names of the manufacturer and importer; model; type of action; caliber or gauge; and serial number as applicable. The person who is transferring title to the firearm shall sign the permit in ink and cause the permit to be delivered or sent by registered mail to the issuing authority within forty-eight hours after transferring the firearm."
" In all cases where a rifle or shotgun is acquired from another person within the State, the person who is transferring title to the rifle or shotgun shall submit, within forty-eight hours after transferring the firearm, to the authority which issued the permit to acquire, the following information, in writing: name of the person who transferred the firearm, name of the person to whom the title to the firearm was transferred; names of the manufacturer and importer; model; type of action; caliber or gauge; and serial number as applicable."
Thanks for your comments London808!!!
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I have several firearms in my possession for several years. I don't know what has changed from when I registered a lower receiver in January to when I applied for the 22/45 in February. No Doctor visits, no convictions, no tickets... no nothing.
Please keep us updated. Did you contact Mr. Holcomb, or any other lawyer? Hope this turns out well!
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I wonder what would happen if a search warrant was issued but the firearms could not be found.
I think another section prescribes a penalty for not complying with firearms laws but if the guy "lost" his firearms just before the search warrant was done then I don't know whether HPD could prosecute since they couldn't prove he didn't actually lose them.
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No updates at the moment. Will call the Sgt. Friday or Monday and ask what the status of the letter stating which subsection I violated. I am speaking to an attorney. Have not heard from Rick Holcomb. :(
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I have several firearms in my possession for several years. I don't know what has changed from when I registered a lower receiver in January to when I applied for the 22/45 in February. No Doctor visits, no convictions, no tickets... no nothing.
Have you ever seen a psychologist or behavioral health department at kaiser for any reason at any time in your life?
If so, then that's the reason for the red flag.
If you saw a psychologist, there is a psychological diagnosis attached to your visit. Otherwise they don't get paid for the visit.
This entire system is screwed up. It's not American.
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No updates at the moment. Will call the Sgt. Friday or Monday and ask what the status of the letter stating which subsection I violated. I am speaking to an attorney. Have not heard from Rick Holcomb. :(
I am wondering if there is something we are missing here, something in the record somewhere that isn't being mentioned. Maybe something not obvious? As you explained, you decided to cancel the permit right? If this is the case then you were not denied which rules out 134-7.2.
???
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Have you ever seen a psychologist or behavioral health department at kaiser for any reason at any time in your life?
If so, then that's the reason for the red flag.
If you saw a psychologist, there is a psychological diagnosis attached to your visit. Otherwise they don't get paid for the visit.
This entire system is screwed up. It's not American.
HPD sent a letter requesting a written notification that he does not have any medical conditions that prohibit him from owning a firearm, Kaiser are saying NO, thats not what we do, thats not what the law says. They are only willing to send his relevant medical records to HPD to make their own determination ( This is what the law says HPD asking fro anything other then your medical records is in violation of the law ) HPD take the refusal of sending a written confirmation and turns it into a denial.
This has nothing to do with Kaiser, they are not at fault. This is to do with HPD requesting information outside of what the law requires/allows.
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I am wondering if there is something we are missing here, something in the record somewhere that isn't being mentioned. Maybe something not obvious? As you explained, you decided to cancel the permit right? If this is the case then you were not denied which rules out 134-7.2.
???
Although he cancelled his pistol permit, they sent him a letter stating he had to surrender all of his firearms. they stated HRS 134-7 as the reason, they did no give a letter (for which section) or explanation,
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HPD sent a letter requesting a written notification that he does not have any medical conditions that prohibit him from owning a firearm, Kaiser are saying NO, thats not what we do, thats not what the law says. They are only willing to send his relevant medical records to HPD to make their own determination ( This is what the law says HPD asking fro anything other then your medical records is in violation of the law ) HPD take the refusal of sending a written confirmation and turns it into a denial.
This has nothing to do with Kaiser, they are not at fault. This is to do with HPD requesting information outside of what the law requires/allows.
They are both at fault.
Doctors there are willing to write a letter or simply not respond if no threat is apparent.
It is kaiser's anti 2A policy which makes them different than hmsa or hmaa, or any other insurance provider except Straub.
It is this policy that adds to the confiscation. Then hpd takes advantage of it.
this policy ties the hands of kaiser doctors.
But they choose to send hpd a letter, stating their no-balls stance on the 2A.
Then hpd Chooses To Red Flag you. And they will for any reason.
Could be for biting your fingernails, or anything.
Now we are stuck going out of our way spending hundreds of dollars to keep our firrarms.
I've went through all this myself a while ago
And now must deal with this every year for the rest of my life as long as I live here, or until this turns back into America.
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FYI/FYSA London808 my personal physician does not reply to HPD when they send the request for info to him. A lack of response is treated as a no. My physician is also a Hawaii Pacific Health Partner aka Struab. My insurance is through HMSA I have had no problem obtaining multiple permits to acquire over the last few years.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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FYI/FYSA London808 my personal physician does not reply to HPD when they send the request for info to him. A lack of response is treated as a no. My physician is also a Hawaii Pacific Health Partner aka Struab. My insurance is through HMSA I have had no problem obtaining multiple permits to acquire over the last few years.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thats what i said ? Your doctor must provide only what the release allows, If they ask for your medical records relating to mental illness and addiction he is required to provide them. They do not ask for that tho, they ask for a written statement saying that you are medically aloud to own a firearm,. Doctors do not respond or in the case of kaiser say nope not gona happen.
The letter that was sent our previously read along the lines of, If you feel that This person is not medically fit to possess a firearm please notify us within 7 days or we will let them have it, HPD changed the letter last year to you must send us a letter saying they are medically fit, Which has caused all this bullshit.
their is are a few of ways around it.
Pay to see a doctor who is willing to sign the statement.
When you apply for your permit leave the doctors section BLANK, you are not required to give your doctors name and address, only sign the release.
When HPD ask if you have Kaiser dont respond and just fill out the form for your doctor. Name and Address, Not the address HPD uses (if they even let you fill out the form) which sends it to office and not your physician.
Make sure to have all your forms printed out and filled in when you get to the station.
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Let's be careful what we suggest here.. you cannot lie and say you have no doctor if you do, in fact, have one...
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Let's be careful what we suggest here.. you cannot lie and say you have no doctor if you do, in fact, have one...
I never said to do that and would never suggest to do so. what i said is, your not required to provide your doctors information, giving false information for the purpose of obtaining a permit is a felony and will result in losing your gun rights.
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I never said to do that and would never suggest to do so. what i said is, your not required to provide your doctors information, giving false information for the purpose of obtaining a permit is a felony and will result in losing your gun rights.
:thumbsup:
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Sorry to hear about your situation, we all should be worried. Sounds like hpd is up to something.. Hey if worst comes to worst, just remember the phrase "Over my dead body! " for your last option..
Hang in there, stay in the fight.
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Hey SWHunter,
Is there an update you can provide to us about this?
Thanks!!!!!
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Hey Stangzilla, can you recommend a doctor for me to get a medical clearence letter from too? I'm in the same boat too. Although I haven't received a certified letter from HPD yet I'd like to be proactive because I need one as well. I'm VERY concerned that because my PCP (primary care physician) say he doesn't know me well enough to sign such a document.
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I apologize for not keeping up with the thread, been real busy. It is temporarily fixed not permanent. Still looking for permanent resolve. HPD Does not have possession of my firearms.
Thanks again for everyone's support and help!
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HPD Does not have possession of my firearms.
Glad to read the Good News !!! :thumbsup:
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Hey Stangzilla, can you recommend a doctor for me to get a medical clearence letter from too? I'm in the same boat too. Although I haven't received a certified letter from HPD yet I'd like to be proactive because I need one as well. I'm VERY concerned that because my PCP (primary care physician) say he doesn't know me well enough to sign such a document.
Tell him he's no longer your doctor, get copies of your files and when you go HPD tell them you no longer have a doctor. Problem solved
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Tell him he's no longer your doctor, get copies of your files and when you go HPD tell them you no longer have a doctor. Problem solved
If you have a doctor, IMO, I would not recommend lying that you do not have a doctor. This problem needs to be addressed by the law abiding gun owners in Hawaii. Not shoddily bypassed to 'go along to get along'.
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If you have a doctor, IMO, I would not recommend lying that you do not have a doctor. This problem needs to be addressed by the law abiding gun owners in Hawaii. Not shoddily bypassed to 'go along to get along'.
I would never recommend lying for the purpose of obtaining a permit or registration. That being said, If you fire your doctor (tell the doctor you no longer wish to be his patient/client) Then you would not be lying. According to the law you dont even have to provide your doctors information, Just sign the release.
I agree completely with you, This should not be a problem, This is another case of HPD overstepping the law to make it as hard as possible for people to own firearms. I wouldn't say its go along to go along, its do what you can legally to not have your rights violated. HPD uses loopholes and word play to violate peoples rights (mine took a federal lawsuit to get resolved) all the time, If you can follow the law and by pass their bullshit why wouldn't you.
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.......... If you can follow the law and by pass their bullshit why wouldn't you.
Because if you do that, the problem is not resolved and they will continue to increase the violation of rights. As of this moment my healthcare system doesn't have any problems. I cannot do anything, really, to forward the resolution. If people that are having their rights TRASHED ban together, and get this resolved permanently, they will not only do good for themselves, they will do a service to all the law abiding gun owners.
What ever happened to the lawsuit? and if you need donations to fund it let me know. I will donate what I can and encourage others to donate as well. Set up a gofundme page or something for a class action. Ask HRA, HDF, and the other clubs for assistance.
Problem is Hawaii gun owners keep buckling to the incremental chipping every time, and as we see in this year legislative session, lawmakers DON'T CARE about your rights. Why should they, people will just follow along, jump through whatever hoops they set up in front of you, no matter how f*cken stupid. Then, all of a sudden, one day all you'll be able to own will be a half assed airsoft gun.
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Then, all of a sudden, one day all you'll be able to own will be a half assed airsoft gun.
Probably not if it in any way resembles an actual firearm and could be mistaken as such from 100 feet away in the middle of the night by a law enforcement officer. Just sayin'... there is no end to it (the "incremental chipping"). I also would recommend against attempting to put your hand in a pocket (see: LaVoy Finicum). :stopjack: