2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: drck1000 on June 08, 2016, 08:12:16 AM
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Do you have an AK74? Have you compared it with the AK47?
I was watching a YouTube video last week that was about a guy taking a Vickers AK class and it was interesting that all of the students but one was shooting an AK74. It was reported to be a small class, but one consisting of shooters that are more experienced in AKs.
I'm pretty much an AK newbie. While I own an AK47 and have shot it and other AKs a good amount, I don't know that much about the gun. Apparently, those "in the know" (their words) and are more experienced with AKs go with the 74. I did some research and it seems like the 5.45 cartridge has a lot of things going for it performance wise, but it was my understanding that it is relatively hard to get. Well, at least when compared to 7.32x39 or even 5.56.
With the prevalence of AK47 and ammo out there, I just would've thought that there would've been more AK47s in an AK class. I have shot AK74s in the past and they are nice guns, but I don't recall them standing out in my mind. However, you don't get any sense of the ballistics of a cartridge when shooting paper. ;D
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I haven't shot a AK74. I think regular people shoot AK47's more for the nostalgia, popularity, and cheap ammo. Most probably don't know the AK74 exists. I'm thinking AK74's are more for the enthusiasts who are more knowledgeable, who also like the nostalgia (otherwise they'd be shooting AR15's) but want the better performance and are willing to pay the price and inconvenience of getting 5.45 ammo.
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74 is an overall better battle weapon for causing enemy damage / casualties. Overall magazine weight is lighter and the round is more devastating to soft targets. Also has a better natural range than the 47, which usually has an effective range of >400m.
if the 47 is a cleaver, the 74 is a butcher knife, while the AR is a scalpel (allegedly).
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If the availability of the 5.45 was akin to the x39, I think overwhelmingly there would be more 74s than 47s.
I know I would go 74 all day long if that was the case.
Less recoil, flatter shooting, slightly more accurate.
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I haven't shot a AK74. I think regular people shoot AK47's more for the nostalgia, popularity, and cheap ammo. Most probably don't know the AK74 exists. I'm thinking AK74's are more for the enthusiasts who are more knowledgeable, who also like the nostalgia (otherwise they'd be shooting AR15's) but want the better performance and are willing to pay the price and inconvenience of getting 5.45 ammo.
I bought an AK47 mostly due to the cost effective (cheap) ammo and was readily available and I just flat wanted an AK ;D I had always planned on shooting it more, but just have been spending more time with ARs.
74 is an overall better battle weapon for causing enemy damage / casualties. Overall magazine weight is lighter and the round is more devastating to soft targets. Also has a better natural range than the 47, which usually has an effective range of >400m.
if the 47 is a cleaver, the 74 is a butcher knife, while the AR is a scalpel (allegedly).
Regarding the performance of the 5.45, what you said is kind of what I'm gathering. I had always assumed it wasn't vastly different from the 7.62x39 and basically just saved weight. But like anything, why come out with something new if it's not better. Would be interesting to do a personal test of all three guns, assuming similar set ups. Might be difficult due (if not impossible) to differences in ammo available for each and opinions on what is a good ammo to compared the three guns on. Still would be interesting to try and from a perspective that doesn't already favor one going into the tests, which many YouTube videos seem like.
If the availability of the 5.45 was akin to the x39, I think overwhelmingly there would be more 74s than 47s.
I know I would go 74 all day long if that was the case.
Less recoil, flatter shooting, slightly more accurate.
I haven't shopped around for 5.45 since I don't have a gun for it, but I also don't recall it being that readily available as well.
I was discussing with a buddy in NC and another in TX. My buddy in NC has a 74 and he said he had a bunch of steel core ammo (that has since been restricted from import, at least from what he tells me) and that the mil-surp stuff that he sees is corrosive and not very accurate in his experience. That would suck if the ammo is corrosive. At least for me since I don't want to go rushing home to clean the gun every time. Maybe he just needs to find better ammo.
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.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=547BKysByqM
If this video doesn't get you excited about 5.45 I don't know what will.
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In no way am I saying Rob Ski is the preeminent expert, but his thoughts on this very topic were covered in this post (http://www.akoperatorsunionlocal4774.com/2014/02/personal-ak/):
Personally, I prefer to use 5.45×39 – it does extremely overall good job and it is very lethal round. 7.62×39 will give you more penetration against hard targets, but you have to carry 30% more in extra ammo weight, because that’s the difference between 5.45 and 7.62. Also, by default, 5.45 has less recoil and acts better (flatter trajectory) when shooting at longer distances. The best option is to have both calibers and keep using these as neceassary… – Rob Ski
I think it depends on the purpose, and your personal preference, but why not have 2 of each? ;D
The ammo weight was mentioned previously and I can see where that is a factor. A fully loaded steel AK mag is significantly heavier than a fully loaded AR mag, even if the AR mag is of steel construction.
I'd love to have two AK47s and AK74s. ;D
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Both rifles operate the same and feel similar 47/74 it is the same action.
As far as 5.45x39 commercial ammo availability locally I have only noticed it at two shops one was X-Ring and the other is DCT. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160608/52ee098f69fd2b0db286ab1483fc33fb.jpg) http://www.danger-close-tactical.com/AMMO.html
Yes Russian surplus 7n6 5.45x39 ammo is banned from import. https://www.atf.gov/news/pr/test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition
More info and links here: https://www.google.com/search?q=5.45x39+ammo+ban&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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If this video doesn't get you excited about 5.45 I don't know what will.
While the results weren't exactly what I would've though (prior to researching into 5.45), it wasn't that surprising. And yeah, frozen trees are DEFINITELY different than warm trees. Ask any skier or snowboarder that has hit one. I may or may not have experienced that first hand. :'( (haha)
I would be interested in the muzzle velocities of the test ammo. I would think that 193 or 855 would perform similarly to the 5.45 in that sort of test. Like he said, it seems like the 5.45 is barely making it out the far side of the tree.
I've seen XM193 zip right through 4x4s and barely make the 18" section move. Load up some soft points though and all of that energy gets dumped into the 4x4 and it goes flying.
I guess it depends what you're looking for in the ammo.
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Both rifles operate the same and feel similar 47/74 it is the same action.
As far as 5.45x39 commercial ammo availability locally I have only noticed it at two shops one was X-Ring and the other is DCT.
Yes Russian surplus 7n6 5.45x39 ammo is banned from import. https://www.atf.gov/news/pr/test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition
More info and links here: https://www.google.com/search?q=5.45x39+ammo+ban&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
38 cents a round is pretty pricey, at least when compared to 7.62x39 and .223/5.56 when bought in bulk. But not outrageous.
7n6, yeah. That's the stuff that he mentioned. My NC buddy is looking to sell the stock of 5.45 that he has, but too bad he's on the other side of the US.
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I have 5.56/.223 and 7.62x39's, but no 5.45x39 mostly due to the fact that I have always had a good supply of 5.56 / .223 and 7.62x39. For nostalgists AK's only come in one caliber. For others the cost / availability of ammo is a definite consideration. For myself if I need something else, I don't stick with the AK and I don't necessarily try to turn the AK into something else, like say an M4. Well OK, I have one AK that has a M4ish rail on it.
I know Larry and many others teach AK stuff, even I do FAM fire foreign weapons stuff, but even Larry somewhat heckled the lone guy shooting an AK in a carbine course that I was present at. I admit it was part shooter, but the rifle is also part of the equation.
That should stir things up a bit.
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I own "AK's" in 5.56, 5.45 and 7.62x39.
I have fired thousands of rounds out of each.
At one time, the 5.45x39 ammo was the cheapest ammo to be had. That's what drew a lot of shooters to the 74. That's not the case anymore and now it's on par with 7.62x39.
The biggest benefits of a 5.45x39 caliber AK-74 is that ammo is lighter to carry and it recoils less.
Accuracy difference is negligible.
You also get better range with the 5.45x39 ammo.
After all is said and done, I enjoy shooting my 7.62x39 AK's more than I like shooting the 5.45x39 AK's.
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Other than the 5.45 X39mm availability issue, looks like the 74 mags command a higher price than 47 mags, except Tapco, Promag etc. Bulgarian circle mags another story.
That said, if ammo was flowing and the cost of mags were equal to 47 mags, I would want to get a AK-74, to keep the 47 company and I can squeeze out more space in the safe.
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I have 5.56/.223 and 7.62x39's, but no 5.45x39 mostly due to the fact that I have always had a good supply of 5.56 / .223 and 7.62x39. For nostalgists AK's only come in one caliber. For others the cost / availability of ammo is a definite consideration. For myself if I need something else, I don't stick with the AK and I don't necessarily try to turn the AK into something else, like say an M4. Well OK, I have one AK that has a M4ish rail on it.
I know Larry and many others teach AK stuff, even I do FAM fire foreign weapons stuff, but even Larry somewhat heckled the lone guy shooting an AK in a carbine course that I was present at. I admit it was part shooter, but the rifle is also part of the equation.
That should stir things up a bit.
I too have a decent/ok amount of 5.56 and .223 and enough 7.62x39 to keep me busy for a while. Now that I have those two and a .308 bolt gun, I don't feel a glaring need for anything. Even if I had not already had an AK47 and this topic came up, I think I would likely still go with the AK47, mostly due to ammo availability and pricing locally. If I were to expand into different calibers, I could see myself trying something in the 6.5/6.8 range, but until I start reloading (which may be a while from now to never), I don't really see that happening.
I've also heard about people bringing AKs to one of Vicker's carbine classes and getting at least some comments. ;D I would love to take a class from him one day. I came close to flying all the way to NC for one of his classes, but ended up with RB1 closer to home instead. In my first RB1 carbine class, there was one (maybe two) guys with SCARs. They also got some comments, but this guy was pretty green, so probably wouldn't have mattered much if he was shooting an AR instead. Jason did well to implement certain things for the SCAR in that class. I don't think anyone ever shot an AK in any of the carbine classes that I've been in.
Nothing wrong with stirring things up from time to time. :thumbsup:
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I own "AK's" in 5.56, 5.45 and 7.62x39.
I have fired thousands of rounds out of each.
At one time, the 5.45x39 ammo was the cheapest ammo to be had. That's what drew a lot of shooters to the 74. That's not the case anymore and now it's on par with 7.62x39.
The biggest benefits of a 5.45x39 caliber AK-74 is that ammo is lighter to carry and it recoils less.
Accuracy difference is negligible.
You also get better range with the 5.45x39 ammo.
After all is said and done, I enjoy shooting my 7.62x39 AK's more than I like shooting the 5.45x39 AK's.
Any particular reason? Is it more related to the gun? Or the ammo? Just curious as to what is important to various shooters.
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Other than the 5.45 X39mm availability issue, looks like the 74 mags command a higher price than 47 mags, except Tapco, Promag etc. Bulgarian circle mags another story.
That said, if ammo was flowing and the cost of mags were equal to 47 mags, I would want to get a AK-74, to keep the 47 company and I can squeeze out more space in the safe.
Mag costs would also be something that I would consider. When I bought my AK, mags were about the same price as AR mags. I also had a friend who gave me a bunch of steel Korean mags to thin out his collection. While I would not want to spend say $40-50 per mag, I am also willing to spend more if the mags are known quality/function and the cheaper alternatives are crappy. That said, I have some inexpensive AK mags that work just great.
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Any particular reason? Is it more related to the gun? Or the ammo? Just curious as to what is important to various shooters.
The 7.62x39 round does everything I need it to do.
To me, the 5.45x39 is inferior to the 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 calibers.
I have a SLR-106 (5.56) that gets great accuracy and in my experience is a superior round in terms of accuracy to the 545x39.
The 7.62x39 seems to get comparable accuracy to the 5.45x39, all the way to 250 yards.
The 5.45x39 is the answer to a question that I don't have.
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I prefer 7.62x39
bigger is better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7eVH8O7wH8
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I also have AK's in the three calibers KK mentioned, but my 5.56 AK's are my favorite to shoot with 7.62 being least favorite. Not only because I reload, but they are just more fun to shoot IMO.
It is noticeably easier for me to shoot quickly and stay on target with the two smaller rounds.
I also just came back from the mainland and my local shop there had a few brands of 5.45 stacked up on the floor for cheap. I think most Hawaii shops just don't have an interest in stocking the 5.45 and the ones that do, don't buy enough to make the price cheap for us.
Luckily I bought my 5.45 and 5.56 AK stuff years ago when mags were way cheaper. If I were getting in the AK game now, I'd go with 7.62 due to cost and that it is going to get harder to find anything this year.
:shaka:
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The 7.62x39 round does everything I need it to do.
To me, the 5.45x39 is inferior to the 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 calibers.
I have a SLR-106 (5.56) that gets great accuracy and in my experience is a superior round in terms of accuracy to the 545x39.
The 7.62x39 seems to get comparable accuracy to the 5.45x39, all the way to 250 yards.
The 5.45x39 is the answer to a question that I don't have.
Gotcha! :thumbsup:
I've been getting conflicting feedback in terms of accuracy of 5.45. Seems about even with more accurate or same as 7.62x39. I only know a couple shooters personally that have actually shot 5.45, but it's not like they did extensive testing. I also wonder if people are sort of mixing up bullet drop and accuracy for the longer shots. It would've been a fun test to compare 5.45x39 and 5.56 and even 7.62x39 in the 200-300 yard range. Too bad the steel at Koko Head is gone.
Maybe one day I can do a test between my AK and one of my ARs, to at least get some answers for myself. Probably won't be apples to apples, since a big part of the my desire to have and shoot an AK is the inexpensive ammo. Not that 193 is expensive. Haha.
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I prefer 7.62x39
bigger is better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7eVH8O7wH8
45 or 9? ;D
I keed. I keed.
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I also have AK's in the three calibers KK mentioned, but my 5.56 AK's are my favorite to shoot with 7.62 being least favorite. Not only because I reload, but they are just more fun to shoot IMO.
It is noticeably easier for me to shoot quickly and stay on target with the two smaller rounds.
I also just came back from the mainland and my local shop there had a few brands of 5.45 stacked up on the floor for cheap. I think most Hawaii shops just don't have an interest in stocking the 5.45 and the ones that do, don't buy enough to make the price cheap for us.
Luckily I bought my 5.45 and 5.56 AK stuff years ago when mags were way cheaper. If I were getting in the AK game now, I'd go with 7.62 due to cost and that it is going to get harder to find anything this year.
:shaka:
Have you ever chrono'ed the 5.56 out of your AK?
It seems like 193 is in the 3100-3200 fps range whereas 5.45x39 are in the 2500-2800 fps (with some approaching 3000 fps). So relatively close. I would've thought that the 5.45 would've been slower for some reason.
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Vicker's take on the topic. BLUF: Both are capable, but he'd choose the AK74.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0zOTdR7xOE&list=WL&index=50 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0zOTdR7xOE&list=WL&index=50)
Seems like noticeable difference in muzzle control in burst/auto, but maybe a little bit less of a difference with the same brake.
Yep, one person's opinion. That said, I've love to do this sort of side-by-side testing for myself if I had the opportunity.