2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: Jl808 on June 21, 2016, 11:18:43 AM
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Please be advised that Will Espero will be having a public meeting on MONDAY June 27, 6:30pm at the Captiol Room 229.
I got this from HiCarry and I just confirmed the meeting by calling Espero's office.
From Wil Espero's post in Civil Beat Politics: I met with this group of concerned residents who want to do more about gun violence and gun control in light of the Orlando massacre. We have a follow-up meeting June 27th at the State Capitol in room 229 at 6:30pm to work together, build a coalition, and develop a plan to have an impact on local and national conversations about guns. Public welcome.
This meeting will be open to the public. Since it is in the evening, please make every effort to attend. This coming one will be an important legislative year for us so it is even more important to stand together.
Remember that Espero is the guy responsible for introducing these oh-so-awesome bills this legislative session.
SB2954 SD2 HD1 Criminal History Record Checks; Police; Permits to Acquire Firearms; Hawaii Criminal Justice Data Center; Database Management
RELATING TO FIREARMS. Authorizes county police departments to enroll firearms applicants and individuals who are registering their firearms into a criminal record monitoring service used to alert police when an owner of a firearm is arrested for a criminal offense anywhere in the country. Authorizes the Hawaii Criminal Justice Data Center to access firearm registration data. (SB2954 HD1)
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=2954
SB2956 SD1 Firearms; Mental Illness; Surrender of Firearms
RELATING TO FIREARMS. Requires firearm owners who have been disqualified from owning a firearm due to mental illness and who underwent involuntary hospitalization to immediately surrender their firearms to the chief of police upon receiving written notification and authorizes the chief of police to take possession of the firearms if the owner fails to comply. Effective January 7, 2059. (SD1)
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=2956
SB2314 SD1 Abuse Against a Family or Household Member; Deferred Acceptance of Guilty Plea; Nolo Contendere Plea
RELATING TO THE OFFENSE OF ABUSE OF FAMILY OR HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS. Makes a person ineligible for a deferred acceptance of guilty plea or deferred acceptance of nolo contendere plea in cases where the person was originally charged with the offense of abuse of a family or household member and the charge is subsequently reduced to a lesser included offense. Effective 1/7/2059. (SD1)
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=2314
SB2204 Firearm Ownership; Restrictions; No Fly List RELATING TO FIREARM RESTRICTIONS.
Restricts anybody included on the terrorist screening center's no-fly list from owning, possessing, or controlling a firearm or ammunition therefor.
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=2204
SB674 Animal Cruelty; Import and Sale of Ivory and Rhinoceros Horn; Prohibitions; Penalties
RELATING TO WILDLIFE PROTECTION. Establishes the offense of the unlawful sale or trade of ivory or rhinoceros horn for any person who sells, offers to sell, possesses with the intent to sell, or imports with the intent to sell any ivory or rhinoceros horn. Creates exemptions for the sale or trade of ivory or rhinoceros horn. Effective 01/01/16.
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=674
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200-300 people need to show up to this if not more. I am planning on going.
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Funny (not haha funny) that I mentioned Espero by name in a post two days ago as likely getting ready with a load of anti-firearm civil rights/civilian disarmament bills for next year. He must have read my post and wanted to get an extra early start. As I wrote there, I suspect he/they already have a boilerplate bill for an "assault weapons" and "high-capacity magazine" ban from Bloomberg, et. al. that they merely need to tailor to Hawaii's specific HRS language. I guess that means he probably won't be sponsoring my suggested bill:
HRS 134 (repealed).
I hope there is a big turnout of 2A supporters on Oahu and that they are given "equal time" to present their views. Any bets? It'd be great if arrangements could be made to record the whole thing on video, or at least audio, so there is a record of just how the system works (and I use the word "works" loosely).
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We need a lot of women to attend so bring your girlfriend, wife, and other friends along.
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Sorry Gents, I will be off island on that day and won't be able to attend. >:( >:( >:(
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Funny (not haha funny) that I mentioned Espero by name in a post two days ago as likely getting ready with a load of anti-firearm civil rights/civilian disarmament bills for next year. He must have read my post and wanted to get an extra early start. As I wrote there, I suspect he/they already have a boilerplate bill for an "assault weapons" and "high-capacity magazine" ban from Bloomberg, et. al. that they merely need to tailor to Hawaii's specific HRS language. I guess that means he probably won't be sponsoring my suggested bill: HRS 134 (repealed).
I hope there is a big turnout of 2A supporters on Oahu and that they are given "equal time" to present their views. Any bets? It'd be great if arrangements could be made to record the whole thing on video, or at least audio, so there is a record of just how the system works (and I use the word "works" loosely).
Recording the event is a GREAT idea and one that could yield good stuff to use in future advocacy efforts.
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Recording the event is a GREAT idea and one that could yield good stuff to use in future advocacy efforts.
Is it possible to submit written testimony - I will be in California - but willing to forward written testimony.
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You can have someone read a testimony for you.
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I'll try to find someone
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I just talked to someone in his office and they said there will be no broadcast or recording of the event, as "it's only a meeting and it's in the evening so we don't have anyone to do that". I'm guessing it's therefore not an official government/legislative event that would also have rules, including about submitting testimony, etc. All the more reason for someone to get the whole thing recorded as I suspect someone might possibly say what they really mean rather than using the constant euphemisms of "gun safety regulations". :shaka: Wish I had a recording of the original meeting that led to this follow-up publicly announced and open meeting...
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I just talked to someone in his office and they said there will be no broadcast or recording of the event, as "it's only a meeting and it's in the evening so we don't have anyone to do that". I'm guessing it's therefore not an official government/legislative event that would also have rules, including about submitting testimony, etc. All the more reason for someone to get the whole thing recorded as I suspect someone might possibly say what they really mean rather than using the constant euphemisms of "gun safety regulations". :shaka: Wish I had a recording of the original meeting that led to this follow-up publicly announced and open meeting...
Good thing Hawaii is a single party notification state with regards to recording....there is nothing they can do to prevent you from recording.....
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I'll be there.
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I will show up. Hope this is not a one way type meeting for only the concerned citizen's for gun control talking with Espero.
Since no bills being presented is some kind of testimony still needed, just in case?
The mods should place this thread under general discussion also to get more publicity out to the forum members. 2016 and 2017, we will be in the fight of our lives.
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Aside: Espero has been in the legislature for 16 (sixteen) years, and prior to that was a mayoral political appointee for 8 (eight) years. Your tax dollars at work. Maybe someone could ask him a question about term limits so we can hear his "still lots of work to do for the people of Hawaii" canned response.
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It's disturbing to see the posting of this informal "meeting" be held at the Capitol, after hours and in the evening. It's also suspicious that there's no one available to record or take the meeting minutes of the topics to be discussed. Is this even for real?? Would this be a waste of time? The only thing I can see coming out of this is our testimony being heard in one ear and out the other. I can see this meeting not last any longer than an hour depending if the meetings climate tone is mellow which I highly doubt. Mr. Espero will try to keep the meeting on topic and not fall off track. I do hope however that everyone in attendance will speak and present a powerful stance on our 2A rights to the Constitution.
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I will show up. Hope this is not a one way type meeting for only the concerned citizen's for gun control talking with Espero.
Since no bills being presented is some kind of testimony still needed, just in case?
The mods should place this thread under general discussion also to get more publicity out to the forum members. 2016 and 2017, we will be in the fight of our lives.
I suspect that since the meeting was created by a "group of concerned residents who want to do more about gun violence and gun control" (have they assumed an unwarranted causal connection? Duh!) that those defending the natural fundamental individual enumerated Constitutionally-protected civil right to keep and bear arms will not receive a particularly warm welcome. I could be wrong, but when was the last time you spoke to a "gun control" advocate who was interested in having a discussion based on facts? Good luck folks!
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i think I can hit that meeting up on my way to work. Ill call a friend too.
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Well if this meeting is only for the gun control types, me as a general public member will listen to what is said and plotted, mean planned.
Forewarned is forearmed as the old saying goes. The Civil Beat archives for Espero don't even mention this meeting.
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I'll be there.
I'm bringing the midget. >:D
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I'll be there.
I'm bringing the midget. >:D
:popcorn:
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I wish I had a firearm related hat or shirt or something...
Open holster protest?
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Open holster protest?
NO!
this meeting is not the time nor the place for that
it's a discussion, not a protest or demonstration
we need to show up in numbers, and be rational and objective in the face of the hate, fear, and lies
if we react with emotion, they win, and they will point to it as proof that gun owners cannot be trusted to keep their cool
the only way to counteract their stupidity is with calm and reason
simple as that
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NO!
this meeting is not the time nor the place for that
it's a discussion, not a protest or demonstration
we need to show up in numbers, and be rational and objective in the face of the hate, fear, and lies
if we react with emotion, they win, and they will point to it as proof that gun owners cannot be trusted to keep their cool
the only way to counteract their stupidity is with calm and reason
simple as that
Does this mean you will be attending?
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NO!
this meeting is not the time nor the place for that
it's a discussion, not a protest or demonstration
we need to show up in numbers, and be rational and objective in the face of the hate, fear, and lies
if we react with emotion, they win, and they will point to it as proof that gun owners cannot be trusted to keep their cool
the only way to counteract their stupidity is with calm and reason
simple as that
I only mentioned open holster because when I attended the event at the opening of the legislature that was organized by JI808 we wore holsters. Just something to consider.
What type of action would you recommend to make our position and size of our group known?
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I only mentioned open holster because when I attended the event at the opening of the legislature that was organized by JI808 we wore holsters. Just something to consider.
What type of action would you recommend to make our position and size of our group known?
2A name tags would be a good start.
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^^ That's a good idea. Dressing professionally is probably better than dressing down.
You'll be regarded more seriously if you're better dressed than not. Human nature.
[edit] Don't let attire keep you from showing up though. Come as you are able to make it.
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aloha shirts pants
not 5.11s tactical garb
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aloha shirts pants
not 5.11s tactical garb
i agree with jl and ren
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^^ That's a good idea. Dressing professionally is probably better than dressing down.
You'll be regarded more seriously if you're better dressed than not.
We should do what the unions do....All wear the same t-shirt. HRA or HDF
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We should do what the unions do....All wear the same t-shirt. HRA or HDF
great idea, mm
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i agree with jl and ren
Does this mean you will be attending?
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I just want to echo a couple of points made already. This will be a meeting that the anti-gun crowd called for and we'll essentially be "crashing" it. If they wanted a open discussion they would have made sure "we" were informed and invited. That being said, it will behoove us to be on our collective best behavior and to make a favorable "first impression." So, nice clothes, well mannered, and most importantly, don't let anyone goad you into loosing your cool. Stay calm, stay factual, and stay the course.
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I just want to echo a couple of points made already. This will be a meeting that the anti-gun crowd called for and we'll essentially be "crashing" it. If they wanted a open discussion they would have made sure "we" were informed and invited. That being said, it will behoove us to be on our collective best behavior and to make a favorable "first impression." So, nice clothes, well mannered, and most importantly, don't let anyone goad you into loosing your cool. Stay calm, stay factual, and stay the course.
mahalo, HiC
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I just want to echo a couple of points made already. This will be a meeting that the anti-gun crowd called for and we'll essentially be "crashing" it. If they wanted a open discussion they would have made sure "we" were informed and invited. That being said, it will behoove us to be on our collective best behavior and to make a favorable "first impression." So, nice clothes, well mannered, and most importantly, don't let anyone goad you into loosing your cool. Stay calm, stay factual, and stay the course.
I sure hope I get to watch this on video. I'm sure calm dispassionate factual logical critical thinking will be on display from all sides. But I still wanna see it. :popcorn:
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Per the HI capitol site, 229 is a senate conference room and looks like can hold a good size audience.
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I sure hope I get to watch this on video. I'm sure calm dispassionate factual logical critical thinking will be on display from all sides. But I still wanna see it. :popcorn:
there's a chance there may be a sit-in!
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there's a chance there may be a sit-in!
Really?! Are you expecting Mazie, Brian and Tulsi to show? :popcorn:
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there's a chance there may be a sit-in!
By which side? Both?
Which group can sit more extremely?
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Does anyone know if an officer from the HRA will be attending?
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Does anyone know if an officer from the HRA will be attending?
Posted an inquiry to HRA's Facebook and the initial response:
"WE" should show up... without active participation from the pro-gun side of the aisle its not a coalition, its an emotion=driven lynch mob... or could become one.
I should be able to make it myself with work schedule permitting. Will prepare a written testimony just in case.
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Does anyone know if an officer from the HRA will be attending?
UPDATE:
Per HRA Facebook:
"Trying to make that happen. Having a meeting tomorrow. Im pretty sure someone will be there."
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Does anyone know if an officer from the HRA will be attending?
I am planning on attending and am meeting tonight with some board members.
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Will someone update what happened since those of other island chat just fly over for a meeting. Thank you in advance.
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I get the professional attire. I get off of work early and will try to make it.
Is everyone meeting up somewhere?
I'm a noob at this stuff but would love to show up to support. Especially since this meeting fits perfectly with my crazy schedule.
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I'd like to go but just had surgery and am on crutches plus lots of pain. The more details posted the better as it will help me decide if it's even possible.
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I'd like to go but just had surgery and am on crutches plus lots of pain. The more details posted the better as it will help me decide if it's even possible.
Best wishes for a speedy and full recovery. :shaka:
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I actually went so far as to put this on my calendar, only to realize that I was triple-booking myself. While I have managed to be in two places at once a few times in the past, I just don't think I can manage three!
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Big Willie Style is at the Ewa Craft Fair if you're interested in one-on-one time
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Big Willie Style is at the Ewa Craft Fair if you're interested in one-on-one time
Is he rockin' da kangol?
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Straw fedora and yellow aloha shirt...inn not a fashion critic though :(
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Imagine if one of y'all called Espero out, noting that ruling that invalidates his bill. Wouldn't that be something. Record it and put it on YouTube.
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It's my birthday, maybe I can bring some gun shaped brownies.
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Imagine if one of y'all called Espero out, noting that ruling that invalidates his bill. Wouldn't that be something. Record it and put it on YouTube.
Which ruling?
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A quote from z06psi, from the post "Ige signed"
"According to the Supreme Court this is an Unconstitutional action. It is unconstitutional to Register (record in a government database) the exercising of a right (Thomas v Collins 1945, Lamont v Postmaster General 1965, Haynes v US 1968)."
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A quote from z06psi, from the post "Ige signed"
"According to the Supreme Court this is an Unconstitutional action. It is unconstitutional to Register (record in a government database) the exercising of a right (Thomas v Collins 1945, Lamont v Postmaster General 1965, Haynes v US 1968)."
I would be willing to point that out if the audience is given a chance to ask questions. Just got to research it to make sure I get the exact language.
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I would be willing to point that out if the audience is given a chance to ask questions. Just got to research it to make sure I get the exact language.
That'd be great except I'm pretty sure this meeting isn't going to be a law-schoolish discussion about the legality and/or constitutionality of existing or proposed laws. I believe what they want to do is propose more "gun control". I suspect the list will include "assault weapon" ban, "high capacity" (aka "standard capacity") magazine ban, background checks for ammunition purchases, create a "handgun roster", special "gun violence prevention" tax (10%-25%) on all firearms and ammunition, "prohibited person" status due to "hate crime" conviction (e.g. "racism" (e.g. advocating deporting illegal aliens, etc.)) etc. In other words, adopt California's "commonsense gun safety regulations". I suppose it's possible that at some point during the discussion Espero could ask "Is there anyone here who has litigated cases before the Supreme Court of the United States that would like to comment on the lawfulness of these proposals?" But I doubt it.
Plus, the really bad thing is that SCOTUS has let stand every one of those laws so far (okay, well except for the "hate crime" "racist" prohibition which I made up (but wouldn't be surprised if it exists in various jurisdictions) to show the ridiculousness of it all)).
EDIT: spelling error.
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I am planning on attending and am meeting tonight with some board members.
In that case we'll be represented well. Not sure what Esperi wants to get out of this "meeting" since some of the topics are not points now.
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Will be there... Spreading the word to a few others as well. Fingers crossed we'll have a good turnout :shaka:
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I will be attending, (as long as nothing crazy happens between now and than) look for green hair :)
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So, I'm new to this as well. Though I did attend the rally in January as the start of the political season, I'm not sure where to meet. Assuming it's the capital and room 229. Please correct me if different.
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So, I'm new to this as well. Though I did attend the rally in January as the start of the political season, I'm not sure where to meet. Assuming it's the capital and room 229. Please correct me if different.
Thanks for taking action. That likely puts you into an elite group of maybe one half of one percent of gun owners in Hawaii. Maybe one tenth of one percent. Tell a friend.
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I'll be there with my wife. Rm #229 @ 1830hrs right?
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I'll be there with my wife. Rm #229 @ 1830hrs right?
Correct, 18:30 Room 229, Thanks for coming out!
So, I'm new to this as well. Though I did attend the rally in January as the start of the political season, I'm not sure where to meet. Assuming it's the capital and room 229. Please correct me if different.
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Yep, Capital room 229 18:30, 6:30 pm for those who don't speak 24 hour time. Looking forward to seeing you again!
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Does anyone know if street parking is available at that time?
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Does anyone know if street parking is available at that time?
There is parking under the capitol but I don't know if it is open in the evening.
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That'd be great except I'm pretty sure this meeting isn't going to be a law-schoolish discussion about the legality and/or constitutionality of existing or proposed laws. I believe what they want to do is propose more "gun control". I suspect the list will include "assault weapon" ban, "high capacity" (aka "standard capacity") magazine ban, background checks for ammunition purchases, create a "handgun roster", special "gun violence prevention" tax (10%-25%) on all firearms and ammunition, "prohibited person" status due to "hate crime" conviction (e.g. "racism" (e.g. advocating deporting illegal aliens, etc.)) etc. In other words, adopt California's "commonsense gun safety regulations". I suppose it's possible that at some point during the discussion Espero could ask "Is there anyone here who has litigated cases before the Supreme Court of the United States that would like to comment on the lawfulness of these proposals?" But I doubt it.
Plus, the really bad thing is that SCOTUS has let stand every one of those laws so far (okay, well except for the "hate crime" "racist" prohibition which I made up (but wouldn't be surprised if it exists in various jurisdictions) to show the ridiculousness of it all)).
EDIT: spelling error.
Good point, I don't want to nerd out in technical language. I think that if I put some time into it I could come up with a short and to the point comment that would explain in general terms that the proposed gun control laws are unconstitutional and/or have no proof of being effective.
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Lol, thanks a million.
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So, I'm new to this as well. Though I did attend the rally in January as the start of the political season, I'm not sure where to meet. Assuming it's the capital and room 229. Please correct me if different.
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See my reply to your post here, https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=23724.20
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Looking at Google maps, the entrance to the capitol underground parking lot is on Punchbowl St. across from Queens ER entrance. There's a small green sign before the driveway.
Never parked there before and not sure of rates but I plan to park there.
Also not sure if C&C lot across the library is cheaper.
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Don't forget to record and put on YouTube lol
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Question will probably come up on what do we propose to stop gun crimes and mass shootings? We should be able to answer that question as a group.
Pass CCW shall issue? Or at least as a compromise require a smaller pilot study first of 1,000 people?
Have harder minimum sentences on criminals that use a gun in crimes?
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Question will probably come up on what do we propose to stop gun crimes and mass shootings? We should be able to answer that question as a group.
Pass CCW shall issue? Or at least as a compromise require a smaller pilot study first of 1,000 people?
Have harder minimum sentences on criminals that use a gun in crimes?
Enforce laws already in place
Keep criminals in prison rather than releasing them to commit crimes again
Mental health reform
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Question will probably come up on what do we propose to stop gun crimes and mass shootings? We should be able to answer that question as a group.
What are the Hawaii stats on gun crimes and mass shootings? If memory serves, the Xerox shooting was 17 years ago (1999), and the shooter owned guns legally before having mental health issues.
Although he had a few outbursts and said some irrational things (which we see on this forum all the time!), his behavior apparently didn't rise to the level of concern for his boss or coworkers to report it to police or mental health professionals.
What changes would have prevented that shooting? if we take away lessons learned from the mainland shootings, they have similarities, but again, what could have stopped them?
Tough questions, but passing feel good laws that do nothing but hassle gun owners isn't a solution.
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What are the Hawaii stats on gun crimes and mass shootings? If memory serves, the Xerox shooting was 17 years ago (1999), and the shooter owned guns legally before having mental health issues.
Although he had a few outbursts and said some irrational things (which we see on this forum all the time!), his behavior apparently didn't rise to the level of concern for his boss or coworkers to report it to police or mental health professionals.
What changes would have prevented that shooting? if we take away lessons learned from the mainland shootings, they have similarities, but again, what could have stopped them?
Tough questions, but passing feel good laws that do nothing but hassle gun owners isn't a solution.
The only thing that will stop mass shootings is universal cc, which is what Trump is calling for, and what the founding fathers intended. Doubt if that would get much traction with Espero.
But, whomever goes, please ask Espero if the intent of the law is to have everyone in the database, or just new applicants from when the law goes into effect. If it's only new applicants, point out there will be over 1 million guns not in the rap back, and the law is useless. If the law is for previous applicants, then point out the Privacy Act, and the Ex Post Facto rule.
Also for attire, it would be neat to see everyone in their ghillie suits.
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Other crimes I can recall is someone using an AK47 to shoot a police officer like 10 times (he luckily survived) which was probably 25 years ago. There was a bank robbery where someone had an AR15 and shot at a cop about 10 years ago in Kahala, but I don't think there were any injuries.
Point we can bring up is there are very few incidents for the amount of rifles we have on island, and we can't ban things for tens of thousands of people because of a handful of rare incidents by criminals. It would be like banning buckets to prevent children from drowning in them which happens rarely. I can't think of something a criminal rarely uses analogy.
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Tough questions, but passing feel good laws that do nothing but hassle gun owners isn't a solution.
I'm definitely curious to hear/see (please, someone record it...) what happens at this meeting. Does anyone really believe the leaders of these anti civil rights groups are concerned about "solutions"? Here's an example of a firearms rights advocate attempting to have a "civil" discussion with an anti-firearm rights advocate:
A Civilized Dialogue with an Anti
http://www.ammoland.com/2016/06/a-civilized-dialogue/?utm_source=Ammoland+Subscribers&utm_campaign=b6af3a2a4b-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6f6fac3eaa-b6af3a2a4b-7178301#axzz4CVE7Z6u3
How many times have you heard a gun-banner say, “We need to have a conversation about _________ (fill in the blank: gun control, gun safety, universal background checks, etc.).”
Recently, I read a letter to the editor* of my local paper that included a similar statement;
“Through civilized dialogue, we can create viable solutions to make our community safer and a better place to live today and in the future.”
So, I decided to take up the challenge and initiate a civilized dialogue. [View article to see written exchange]
* * * * *
I'm a fan of David Codrea's maxim: "Anyone who can't be trusted with a gun can't be trusted without a custodian." Neither should those people be allowed access to automobiles, gasoline, knives, baseball bats, etc. And you're gonna have to do something about those hands, feet and fists that are used far more frequently than firearms to injure and kill people. Let's hear your "commonsense" proposal for that. How do you dtermine your priorities? I'm just sayin'...
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Other crimes I can recall is someone using an AK47 to shoot a police officer like 10 times (he luckily survived) which was probably 25 years ago. There was a bank robbery where someone had an AR15 and shot at a cop about 10 years ago in Kahala, but I don't think there were any injuries.
Point we can bring up is there are very few incidents for the amount of rifles we have on island, and we can't ban things for tens of thousands of people because of a handful of rare incidents by criminals. It would be like banning buckets to prevent children from drowning in them which happens rarely. I can't think of something a criminal rarely uses analogy.
Banning box cutters / razors after 9-11-2001??
Since Hawaii has the LOWEST gun death rate in the nation, what exactly is the point of new gun control laws? Are we afraid we'll "miss the boat" to pile on the Orlando mass shooting? Are we using fear and gun control rhetoric issued from the White House to pass more restrictions that will solve NO problems here?
Hawaii has lowest gun death rate in the nation, new analysis finds
http://khon2.com/2015/01/30/hawaii-has-lowest-gun-death-rate-in-the-nation-new-analysis-finds/
It kind of feels like we're discussing new laws on whether we should be allowed to have Dodo Birds as pets!
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Question will probably come up on what do we propose to stop gun crimes and mass shootings? We should be able to answer that question as a group.
Pass CCW shall issue? Or at least as a compromise require a smaller pilot study first of 1,000 people?
Have harder minimum sentences on criminals that use a gun in crimes?
My thoughts to prevent gun crimes along with passing CCW, legalizing more non-lethal tools like Tasers, no knife or club restrictions, is to change current culture.
Gun crime is made up of more than one part. One is the tool which alone don't do anything and the other part is the individual. If the individual is influenced by video games, movies, songs then concentrate on those things too. I'm sick of Tarantino making violent movies then coming out for gun control. Sick of Jessica Alba types who act in movies like Machete and then say guns are bad. Might be missing more ideas but that's what comes to mind.
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Question will probably come up on what do we propose to stop gun crimes and mass shootings? We should be able to answer that question as a group.
Pass CCW shall issue? Or at least as a compromise require a smaller pilot study first of 1,000 people?
Have harder minimum sentences on criminals that use a gun in crimes?
On top of some of the other ideas mentioned:
Stop giving so much publicity to the shootings and shooters. We don't need copy cats.
Improve the family environment. There is a high correlation between people who commit crimes and being raised without a father.
There are many states and cities with high rates of gun ownership and very low rates of violence. This is proof that we need to fix society, not blame guns.
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The one and only legislative action that would have a major impact on reducing violent crime at this point is ending the war on drugs. Everything else either involves taking away rights and strengthening the police state, orl half measures that either don't work or make the problems worse.
We have an ever growing population of mentally unstable homeless people walking around the streets and babbling to themselves, and Democrats seem perfectly okay with this as long as the cops show up and push them out of the rich neighborhoods. Nobody cares about mental health until it's time fill out an application for something. It's a disgrace when you travel to other countries where they don't have such problems and then come back here to see our feral incapacitated population wandering around like walking dead. People see mental illness as a curse rather than a disease, making it much less likely for people to seek help. And now they want to make it even less likely for people to seek help?
Then there is income inequality. You can't legislate straight communism but there are things that can be done like rent control, changing the tax code to make it unprofitable for non residents to "invest" in real estate, and granting us an exemption to the Jones act that's chaining down our local economy. If people can't make an honest living they will do what they need to survive.
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Copy all regarding the good gouge here, but a quick question... Did anyone sort the parking situ out? Does the lot under the capitol close mid-evening??? Really couldn't find good info online sadly.
Will cya'll there at some point!!!
Boomah
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The one and only legislative action that would have a major impact on reducing violent crime at this point is ending the war on drugs. Everything else either involves taking away rights and strengthening the police state, orl half measures that either don't work or make the problems worse.
We have an ever growing population of mentally unstable homeless people walking around the streets and babbling to themselves, and Democrats seem perfectly okay with this as long as the cops show up and push them out of the rich neighborhoods. Nobody cares about mental health until it's time fill out an application for something. It's a disgrace when you travel to other countries where they don't have such problems and then come back here to see our feral incapacitated population wandering around like walking dead. People see mental illness as a curse rather than a disease, making it much less likely for people to seek help. And now they want to make it even less likely for people to seek help?
Then there is income inequality. You can't legislate straight communism but there are things that can be done like rent control, changing the tax code to make it unprofitable for non residents to "invest" in real estate, and granting us an exemption to the Jones act that's chaining down our local economy. If people can't make an honest living they will do what they need to survive.
These are good points. Probably half of the crime here has something to do with drugs. And another large percentage is mental illness (& illness from drugs) and homelessness. At the meeting, maybe we can push this as "common ground" to reduce crime and murders instead of ineffectively focusing on gun control.
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I am working tonight so can't be there... sucks...
One thing I’d have asked is why Legislators are forcing the public to trust violent criminals and terrorists with their very lives?
Essentially, Legislators are proposing and passing laws with the intent of preventing people such as these from becoming threats but doing so by trusting that these same people will abide by these laws. How is it logical to trust these people with everyone’s lives in this manner?
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If you restrict rights without addressing the underlying causes of society's problems they all you end up with is a giant prison.
The safest place in the world is a padded cell, and then you're at the mercy of the guards.
I wish I could go. Made a test run to the grocery store but still in too much pain. Don't let them get away with turning this into a prison island.
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I have a bunch of these in my pocket, with lanyards and shirt clips, PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU ARE A 2A MEMBER i will give you one FOR FREE, I also have a sharpie so you can write in your name if you choose to
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/13528760_10157077668430634_3747749518629982289_n.jpg?oh=4d4a3f3fedf83895109ac770e018b54b&oe=57EA6454)
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I'll be a little late but I'll be there
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Does anyone know if street parking is available at that time?
There is parking under the capitol but I don't know if it is open in the evening.
Copy all regarding the good gouge here, but a quick question... Did anyone sort the parking situ out? Does the lot under the capitol close mid-evening??? Really couldn't find good info online sadly.
Will cya'll there at some point!!!
Boomah
I don't remember the building name but the day we rallied I parked here, https://www.google.com/search?q=parking+near+hawaii+state+capitol&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#istate=lrl:iv&rlimm=5919484941392078377
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en-us&client=safari&yv=2&um=1&ie=UTF-8&fb=1&gl=us&entry=s&sa=X&ftid=0x7c006e751e838d9b:0x52263c3100f2e629&gmm=CgIgAQ%3D%3D
The entrance is off of Alakea St.
Best of luck to you all. Edster hopefully you can make a write up similar to the ones you do for the HKNB meetings?
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Anybody at the Capitol now? Just saw Espero talking to SO about opening the room (229) up.
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Anybody at the Capitol now? Just saw Espero talking to SO about opening the room (229) up.
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Leaving Kaneohe now.
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Take elevator to 2nd floor. Room 229.
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Parking is free downstairs. Enter on punchbowl street.
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See below
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See below
Sorry guys I'm in LA - any updates or feed back - visited a couple of gun shops here in the Los Angeles area and everyone seems to know Ige stuck us on that rap back system.
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Some of Espero's friends aren't happy about the 2A presence there...
I'm still at work myself...
This person caption his selfie as "NRA has a strong presence here" to go with this real "mature" facial expression.
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(https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=23664.80)
Good to know the meeting isn't about crime or public safety. Just guns. Cool. Probably legislate an unlimited free public give-away including free training, holsters and ammo. Finally the legislators doing something useful.
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Some of Espero's friends aren't happy about the 2A presence there...
I'm still at work myself...
This person caption his selfie as "NRA has a strong presence here" to go with this real "mature" facial expression.
that's the guy that was on the news last night at the gay marriage one year celebration
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So now he gets to celebrate his new found right of gay marriage which is fine but then advocates taking another one away from others?
The height of hypocrisy!!!!!!
He went from rights warrior to pure liberal activist. There is a difference.
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Some of Espero's friends aren't happy about the 2A presence there...
I'm still at work myself...
This person caption his selfie as "NRA has a strong presence here" to go with this real "mature" facial expression.
What social media was this on? I have a bone to pick with this guy.
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What social media was this on? I have a bone to pick with this guy.
Facebook. Will Espero's personal account. Scroll down for the event listing on his timeline. There is a thread embedded for comments. You'll find him there.
Just engage him with facts and that will be enough to trigger his narrow mind to hurl insults at you and then you've won. :thumbsup:
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Facebook. Will Espero's personal account. Scroll down for the event listing on his timeline. There is a thread embedded for comments. You'll find him there.
Just engage him with facts and that will be enough to trigger his narrow mind to hurl insults at you and then you've won. :thumbsup:
Thanks! Comments left. Hypocrites only know when they are one, is when you call them out.
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He has decided to engage me.
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I see three Facebook accounts, but don't see any timeline
Guess I have to switch to a comouter
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Yeah, he has the typical liberal answers.
No facts.
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Some of Espero's friends aren't happy about the 2A presence there...
I'm still at work myself...
This person caption his selfie as "NRA has a strong presence here" to go with this real "mature" facial expression.
Ahh, Mr Emotion. No logical argument and I thought he was going to cry. He started yelling at anyone trying to engage him.
Lucky me, I sat right next to him. He and "The Scholar Lady" seemed very disappointed at all the dissenting opinions.
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Facebook. Will Espero's personal account. Scroll down for the event listing on his timeline. There is a thread embedded for comments. You'll find him there.
Just engage him with facts and that will be enough to trigger his narrow mind to hurl insults at you and then you've won. :thumbsup:
Can some on link it ?
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Ahh, Mr Emotion. No logical argument and I thought he was going to cry. He started yelling at anyone trying to engage him.
Lucky me, I sat right next to him. He and "The Scholar Lady" seemed very disappointed at all the dissenting opinions.
As long as no one got baited into a shallow "emotional" rage of non-sense. It doesn't take much for THEM to start making death threats like "I wish you shot yourself or I wish your kids get shot"... aka the typical far left extremist "progressive" response.
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Can some on link it ?
https://www.facebook.com/events/250808738633250/
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I see three Facebook accounts, but don't see any timeline
Guess I have to switch to a comouter
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still nothing...
is it because i'm not fb friends with him?
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Thank you to every one that came out, Was a good meeting and i dont think we were to disruptive. They dident like any of the facts presented at all.
We did find out some information tho
Espero introduced and voted on the bill without knowing what rapback actually was, he has never seen the policy documents.
People are supprised as hell when some one has actually read the full document and supporting documents
The law was signed into effect on Friday and as such is the only method of background checks that can be implemented, Yet Hawaii has no way of implementing it and it will not be ready for 6 months.
Gun control is not just about controlling guns but is about looking at what causes the violence
Correlation and causation are not the same thing.
Anti-gunners get very angry when they are not right.
If you are pro gun you are NRA,
Also what do you guys think of the green hair lol.
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still nothing...
is it because i'm not fb friends with him?
Shouldn't matter.
This link will take you directly to the thread (be sure to be logged into Facebook before clicking the link to make it easier: https://www.facebook.com/events/250808738633250/
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still nothing...
is it because i'm not fb friends with him?
https://www.facebook.com/michaelgolojuchjr
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Thanks to all that showed up. I wanted to stay till the end to meet the guys and gals that were there but I had to pick up the family.
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https://www.facebook.com/events/250808738633250/
...
I wish I could have been there.
I don't do Facebook but is that willie and friends in front of a giant tub of beer?
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Underground parking was open and I paid the meter, didn't know it was free.
Willy was surprised at the pro 2A turnout and kept on repeating nobody wants to take your guns or ban guns (sounds like a real politician). He said this was the biggest pro 2A turnout in his 17 years.
Yeah the anti guy that was yelling at the top of his voice, may have a point. Guys like him shouldn't own a gun and he should be on all watch lists. This is why many antis believe that people shouldn't own guns because these antis themselves have mental issues.
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Who are these people? I'm new to this activism from a face-to-face presence?
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Thank you to every one that came out, Was a good meeting and i dont think we were to disruptive. They dident like any of the facts presented at all.
We did find out some information tho
Espero introduced and voted on the bill without knowing what rapback actually was, he has never seen the policy documents.
People are supprised as hell when some one has actually read the full document and supporting documents
The law was signed into effect on Friday and as such is the only method of background checks that can be implemented, Yet Hawaii has no way of implementing it and it will not be ready for 6 months.
Gun control is not just about controlling guns but is about looking at what causes the violence
Correlation and causation are not the same thing.
Anti-gunners get very angry when they are not right.
If you are pro gun you are NRA,
Also what do you guys think of the green hair lol.
My last experience with any sort of state or government entity was spent with UH Manoa and volunteering for fundraising and it does NOT surprise me how shallow and poorly educated our "leaders" in government are...
Not surprised with this revelation at all.
What did the Anti-gunners say with regards to what the Rap Back System was really all about? More yelling? More name calling?
Sorry, just got off of work. Thank you for sharing.
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Underground parking was open and I paid the meter, didn't know it was free.
Willy was surprised at the pro 2A turnout and kept on repeating nobody wants to take your guns or ban guns (sounds like a real politician). He said this was the biggest pro 2A turnout in his 17 years.
Yeah the anti guy that was yelling at the top of his voice, may have a point. Guys like him shouldn't own a gun and he should be on all watch lists. This is why many antis believe that people shouldn't own guns because these antis themselves have mental issues.
Where were your sitting?
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HAHAHAHHAHA they took it down.!!!!!
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I "love" that all the gun nuts now care about due process regarding the "no fly" list. They couldn't careless two weeks ago!
Chrissy Baker Gun nuts? Who are they exactly?
Like · Reply · 31 mins
Hide 20 Replies
Michael Golojuch Jr I will give you three guesses....
Like · Reply · 28 mins
Chrissy Baker Go ahead. Tell me.
Like · Reply · 27 mins
Michael Golojuch Jr Anyone that opposes Universal Background Checks, registration, required training, etc...
Like · Reply · 25 mins
Chrissy Baker Is that not infringement of a right. We went from open selling to over 14,000 gun laws in this country. What is the end game? You tell me how anything you propose would have stopped Orlando, Chicago, or any other problem with guns? I am open to suggestions.
Like · Reply · 23 mins
Michael Golojuch Jr Just like you can't yell fire in a crowed theater or accusing someone of a crime that you know that they did not commit...
Like · Reply · 20 mins
Chrissy Baker Actually I can yell fire in a theater. No one can stop me so therefore you did not prevent it. And you make my point. You want to treat gun owners like criminals. So do we have a gay register also? How about a purple register? How about an illegal alien register for those who actually break the law by being here. Government can have all kinds of lists. Lists are bad for the people and the people only.
Like · Reply · 17 mins
Michael Golojuch Jr It is against the law and you will be held accountable... you my dear are the prime example of a gun nut. Thanks for answering your own question.
Like · Reply · 15 mins
Chrissy Baker So nut means psycho or really passionate? Which one so I know what nut means.
Like · Reply · 14 mins
Michael Golojuch Jr Are you the one that thinks that the Orlando killer was a government plant?
Like · Reply · 13 mins
Kevin Kacatin Chrissy Baker no sense engaging. Its a trap and an endless cycle meant to slander. Very immature.
Like · Reply · 12 mins
Chrissy Baker No the Orlando killer was a evil man motivated by ISIS to kill Westerners. He happened to pick the gay community because he either was comfortable with them or thought they were easy targets. That whole situation is horrible and my thinking is that we need to go after the motivators of this attack and not the American people or gun owners in this case.
Like · Reply · 10 mins
Chrissy Baker Kevin Kacatin, not worried. His emotions are not based in facts or the constitution that he loves so much because it allows him to live his lifestyle and to enjoy happiness. You just can't have it both ways.
Like · Reply · 8 mins
Michael Golojuch Jr No he was programmed by bigots to kill gays - much like the evangelical christian churches have been doing for years. So are you going to go after Franklin Graham and every other christian pastor that preaches hate against the gay community like the pastors that heaped praise on the killer or the pastor that advocates killing gays...
Like · Reply · 7 mins
Chrissy Baker Seriously dude? You just went tinfoil hat on me. The evil man confessed what he was doing that night. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best explanation.
Like · Reply · 6 mins
Chrissy Baker I thought we were having a conversation about gun nuts and you went all left field on me.
Like · Reply · 5 mins
Michael Golojuch Jr I know it makes you feel better about the world if you think it was imported hate but sorry to tell you he was home grown and programmed much like the Charleston shooter and the Colorado Planned Parenthood shooter and the thousands of preps of hate crimes that minorities face every year
Like · Reply · 2 mins
Chrissy Baker Michael Golojuch Jr I have to be honest here. I am Christine's husband Andrew. We have a joint page. Just a little background for you. I am an active duty veteran with 25 years in uniform. I have fought in three wars. These Muslims want to kill you and me. We have to stop fighting one another because someone in the media or government makes a statement and then we take sides. ISIS is for real and they would love to add some more atrocities to their list. I have been there.
Like · Reply · Just now
Michael Golojuch Jr Well daesch want to kill me just as much as the evangelical christians...
Like · Reply · Just now
Chrissy Baker Stop being a sensationalists. I am a Christian. So what? I am not here to judge you at all. Do your thing.
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Where were your sitting?
I belive he was last row 2 to my right
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Thank you to all those who came. I thought we maintained a pretty civil discourse given the passion on the issue. Interestingly, rap back became the big talking point but there was a little discussion on what could be done to reduce shootings. General ideas and desires but not much in the way of specifics.
I think Espero definitely learned he is going to have to reckon with us if we manage to keep up this level of representation at gun control meetings.
Props to ester who behaved himself, especially since he was sitting next to the most... vocal gun control advocate present!
Thanks to London who brought free name tags and all his research into the rap back system.
Thanks to JI808 who brought this to our attention!
Unfortunately we aren't the best looking crowd, mostly dudes present.
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My last experience with any sort of state or government entity was spent with UH Manoa and volunteering for fundraising and it does NOT surprise me how shallow and poorly educated our "leaders" in government are...
Not surprised with this revelation at all.
What did the Anti-gunners say with regards to what the Rap Back System was really all about? More yelling? More name calling?
Sorry, just got off of work. Thank you for sharing.
There was not much talk about rapback, I think i had more answers then the senator who pushed the bill.
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We did find out some information tho
The law was signed into effect on Friday and as such is the only method of background checks that can be implemented, Yet Hawaii has no way of implementing it and it will not be ready for 6 months.
If they are ready, like they think they will be in 6 months, was it revealed whether only new applicants or registrants at that time be enrolled in the Rap Back or will they retroactively enroll everyone from July 1, 2016 or earlier?
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Thanks to London who brought free name tags and all his research into the rap back system.
Your welcome, Out of 20 i had i got home with 3, Even gave one to the senator (technically he helped himself) We will have more of these for other event and meetings, You can write what you want on them with a sharpie just give it 20 seconds to dry before wearing it. The back has the 2A printed on it.
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13533063_10157078140655634_7795160236307642068_n.jpg?oh=b8c4f67f40df31153c5db604445daca2&oe=57F584B5)
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HAHAHAHHAHA they took it down.!!!!!
Typical.. BUT I think when an event is done, Facebook automatically erases it. I think ....
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If they are ready, like they think they will be in 6 months, was it revealed whether only new applicants or registrants at that time be enrolled in the Rap Back or will they retroactively enroll everyone from July 1, 2016 or earlier?
From a new understanding only new applicants will be enrolled, That being said they coul try and add old people and just deal with the consequences.
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Typical.. BUT I think when an event is done, Facebook automatically erases it. I think ....
Nope it was manually removed,
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He was trying to deflect and go down his hate of religion. There were two posts actually and both of them we on pure emotion.
He honestly believed that everything he was advocating for didn't violate the 2nd, 4th, or 10th Amendment. I asked him how he would feel about his new found right of gay marriage being restricted to only civil unions again and that they all had to register themselves with the government. Crickets.
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Nope it was manually removed,
Yeah I thought so the way it went down. I wish I could have captured the other thread.
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Nope it was manually removed,
touche!
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Ok
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I was very proud to be there tonight and glad to meet all of you guys. We have to zealously defend our rights or they will try to take them. We need to keep our collective finger on the pulse of this debate and rally even stronger next time they have a meeting. Angry gay man will be back next time with a lot more fringers so we need to be prepared. What is the mechanism to rally folks? HRA, 2A? Please let me know and I'll bring more folks with me....thanks to all for defending the bill of rights tonight. Espero is a liar and a typical politician. He knew damn well what he was doing and did a lot of back pedaling tonight! Tell me again Will how I get myself out of RAP Back when I leave the state permanently after de-registering my guns??? He could never answer that. He is a shill for secular progressives that look a lot like Nobama and Billary!
Where were you sitting? I don't think we had a chance to introduce
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Back row, middle, shaved head, blue and yellow Aloha shirt.....
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Oh ok I remember seeing you
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I was very proud to be there tonight and glad to meet all of you guys. We have to zealously defend our rights or they will try to take them. We need to keep our collective finger on the pulse of this debate and rally even stronger next time they have a meeting. Angry gay man will be back next time with a lot more fringers so we need to be prepared. What is the mechanism to rally folks? HRA, 2A? Please let me know and I'll bring more folks with me....thanks to all for defending the bill of rights tonight. Espero is a liar and a typical politician. He knew damn well what he was doing and did a lot of back pedaling tonight! Tell me again Will how I get myself out of RAP Back when I leave the state permanently after de-registering my guns??? He could never answer that. He is a shill for secular progressives that look a lot like Nobama and Billary!
There isn't even a unregistering process! The law was intended that way back in, 1996?
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Where were your sitting?
Back row center.
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So do I have to sue to get out of the Hawaii registration database???
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Im not even sure it suing would work, You can send them a letter notifying them that you have left the state with all firearms tho.
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So do I have to sue to get out of the Hawaii registration database???
Yes you would have to. There is no process.
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I belive he was last row 2 to my right
You're correct, how did you know that? Was it the old (but still handsome) guy look?
Anyways I'm glad you're on our side. You presented facts well. Knowledge is always power.
Actually I didn't get the connection with the British accent and the name London808 till reading this thread. Was the green hair for Brexit?
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You're correct, how did you know that? Was it the old (but still handsome) guy look?
Anyways I'm glad you're on our side. You presented facts well. Knowledge is always power.
Actually I didn't get the connection with the British accent and the name London808 till reading this thread. Was the green hair for Brexit?
You mentioned paying for parking, put 2+2 together :)
My hair is green because i cant read and follow simple instructions, was meant to be a dark blue. Luckily im self employees and as such dont have a boss to upset.
Best part of the evening, Asking the senator if he read the policy document for Rapback and him telling me he had no clue it existed and only entered the bill because he was asked to my Major Robinson of HPD and the AG told him it was all legal.
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Thanks everyone for attending and showing support! Just off of work now and nice to see we made a small impact.
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...
Best part of the evening, Asking the senator if he read the policy document for Rapback and him telling me he had no clue it existed and only entered the bill because he was asked to my Major Robinson of HPD and the AG told him it was all legal.
So he is making laws and he doesn't even know what or how those laws will effect his constituents and law abiding citizens? Interesting......
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That doesn't surprise me in the least bit.
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I was sitting behind the angry gay & his not so little friend.... I was a little offended when she made the observation of not having any scholars in the room. My son, wife & I seated directly behind them I wanted to give the dude and his friend a high five in the back of the head when he yelled THANK YOU.
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...... And politely say you're welcome. Jk. I wouldn't stoop. Would've been funny though.
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I was sitting behind the angry gay & his not so little friend.... I was a little offended when she made the observation of not having any scholars in the room. My son, wife & I seated directly behind them I wanted to give the dude and his friend a high five in the back of the head when he yelled THANK YOU.
That guy is at every political meeting on the island. Used to see him at the Kapolei N.B. wearing a T-shirt he made with a picture of Mike Gabbard sporting horns on his head. He is deranged.
Also, nice to know that the jack boots are writing our laws.
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So he is making laws and he doesn't even know what or how those laws will effect his constituents and law abiding citizens? Interesting......
pretty much then a light bulb went on above his head ... hey why don't we involve the law abiding gun toters in writing these laws because these gun people seem to know a little something about what us politicians and 90 % of the sheep are pretending to know about. It's pretty funny when 80% of the room knows alot more of the thing you trying to write about more then you.
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So he is making laws and he doesn't even know what or how those laws will effect his constituents and law abiding citizens? Interesting......
Don't let a little thing like controversy get in the way of Progress! It's actually really inspiring to see 2a debate become the high school civics class that they cancelled so many years ago. There are so many people walking around who have no idea about the constitution, never mind why we have checks and balances and three branches of government,, etc. The idea is to build a stable republic, because tyranny has a short shelf life and tends to drag the population back into the dark ages.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU
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Don't let a little thing like controversy get in the way of Progress! It's actually really inspiring to see 2a debate become the high school civics class that they cancelled so many years ago. There are so many people walking around who have no idea about the constitution, never mind why we have checks and balances and three branches of government,, etc. The idea is to build a stable republic, because tyranny has a short shelf life and tends to drag the population back into the dark ages.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to attend the meeting and stand up for our rights. :shaka:
Besides Pelosi's infamous absurd line line of having to pass Obamacare in order to find out what's in it (that worked out well...), is the equally infamous Carolyn McCarthy's "thing that goes up" answer when asked "What is a barrel shroud?". That was her bill (an "assault weapons" ban) that she introduced, and she didn't know what the language of the bill was describing, but she knew she wanted it banned. That's the level of knowledge of these politicians as they pass laws that diminish our rights and freedom. They're all just following orders. I've mentioned before that my state senator believed that anyone could walk in to any gun store and buy a "machine gun". He voted FOR every civilian disarmament bill even after I attempted to educate him about reality. I'm disgusted, disheartened, and, in a way, frightened.
Speaking of ignorance. Is it any wonder that ignorant politicians can get elected in the first place and then get re-elected for essentially their entire lifetime when we have an electorate like this?
Great news from WaPo/ABC poll: 13% of Americans understand due process
http://hotair.com/archives/2016/06/28/great-news-from-wapoabc-poll-13-of-americans-understand-due-process/
By an 86/13 split, Americans support the use of secret watch lists to block the exercise of the Second Amendment — and another 72% may have no issue with infringing on the Fourth Amendment, either.
[The "good" news (though the politicians can do whatever they want independent of the electorate's desires...)]
Let’s start with the assault-weapons ban response. A look at the raw data from pollster Langer Associates shows this to be the second-lowest level of support in the past 22 years.
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You mentioned paying for parking, put 2+2 together :)
My hair is green because i cant read and follow simple instructions, was meant to be a dark blue. Luckily im self employees and as such dont have a boss to upset.
Best part of the evening, Asking the senator if he read the policy document for Rapback and him telling me he had no clue it existed and only entered the bill because he was asked to my Major Robinson of HPD and the AG told him it was all legal.
That wasn't me telling you about parking last night. I might have been 3 seats to your right. Regret not hanging around to talk story and meet all of you in person after the meeting ended.
Was thinking about the meter expiring and about to pass out from lack of food. Anyway good showing last night, the first of many probably.
Green, blue or white hair don't matter as long as you have knowledge.
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Good turn out for short notice.
Thanks everyone.
As I have said before on this forum, and last nights meeting is an example, of why we need everyone to unite together. HRA, HDF, and all the other gun clubs/groups in Hawaii. I wouldn't be surprised if our very vocal rainbow boy will try and organize his fan base for the next meeting. We need to be prepared. We should also research if there is a Pink Pistols group locally and try to get their support.
jmo
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This is a very good idea! I'll talk to a podcast group who knows them. I'll be in touch.
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We should also research if there is a Pink Pistols group locally and try to get their support.
there is not a local chapter
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I feel the reason the big guy last night is so anti gun is because due to anger issues he cant be in possession of one, Infact i get that feeling about a lot of anti gunners, I cant trust myself with one so no one should own any.
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It's certainly an issue of not understanding the in adamant tool. Who was the reseeding hairline badly dressed lawyer guy arguing what would gun people want to see happen? He was sitting to the right next to the sundress lady who feels better she didn't need a gun to protect herself.
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It's certainly an issue of not understanding the in adamant tool. Who was the reseeding hairline badly dressed lawyer guy arguing what would gun people want to see happen? He was sitting to the right next to the sundress lady who feels better she didn't need a gun to protect herself.
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Yep she dident realize that the state and city twist the numbers to show what they want and what actually happens.
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Yep she dident realize that the state and city twist the numbers to show what they want and what actually happens.
Right, but who was the guy?
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re: Pink Pistols
there is not a local chapter
Wonder if we could get someone to start a local chapter. Would be a good counter to rainbow boy.
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We are coming down pretty hard on Willie Espero on this PUBLIC forum.
I think he deserves a little credit for engaging the public and admitting the embarrassing fact that he didn't know what was in that RAP BACK bill.
In the end we all want the same result. We just disagree on how best to accomplish that.
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We are coming down pretty hard on Willie Espero on this PUBLIC forum.
I think he deserves a little credit for engaging the public and admitting the embarrassing fact that he didn't know what was in that RAP BACK bill.
He deserves credit for standing in front of us and lying to our faces that he is not anti gun. I did see his face tremble a little while he was telling us that nobody wanted to take our guns away.
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Totally agree with muffin
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We are coming down pretty hard on Willie Espero on this PUBLIC forum.
I think he deserves a little credit for engaging the public and admitting the embarrassing fact that he didn't know what was in that RAP BACK bill.
In the end we all want the same result. We just disagree on how best to accomplish that.
This is the e-mail i sent him this morning. ( YES I KNOW me English not so good.)
First of all i want to say thank you for handling things the way you did last night, I understand that the issue of gun control can be a very touchy subject as both sides can be very passionate about their beliefs. We in the Gun community are very discouraging when we are not included or ignored when it comes to the gun control issue as ultimately its us these laws effect. Its very disheartening when laws get put in place that when you look at them they sound like great ideas but in reality they only effect those that follow the law and do very little to stop and deter gun crime, We as a community want to be involved in these discussions.
I did mention last night that with the law being signed in to place on Friday that HPD is now violating state law as the system for checking backgrounds and the fees associated with them (from Hawai‘i Criminal Justice Data Center) Right now HPD is charging the old fees ($14.75 as charged by the FBI) and it is my understating they are still using the old Background check procedures in violation of the new changes made to the law.
Whilst i have your attention many of us in the firearms community are very saddened and worried about the lack of firearms education received by the children of Hawaii, There is no state programs in place with DOE to teach children about firearms safety. Education is the best tool for prevention of accidents and abuse of firearm. Would this be something you wopuld be willing to work with us on getting in the legislators to mandate education and securing funding? If not you would would you suggest and would you be willing to help us work on this ?
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He deserves credit for standing in front of us and lying to our faces that he is not anti gun. I did see his face tremble a little while he was telling us that nobody wanted to take our guns away.
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He deserves very little credit.... But this is a PUBLIC thread and we wouldn't want to OVERLY antagonize the guy.
Keep your comments civil and respectful in this PUBLIC SECTION of the forum.
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He deserves very little credit.... But this is a PUBLIC thread and we wouldn't want to OVERLY antagonize the guy.
Keep your comments civil and respectful in this PUBLIC SECTION of the forum.
He could of gone the other way and just stooped the meeting and/or asked us to leave and/or not give us a chance to speak. He had the decency to let us have our say and have input on the subject of gun control many senators would not do that.
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He deserves credit for standing in front of us and lying to our faces that he is not anti gun. I did see his face tremble a little while he was telling us that nobody wanted to take our guns away.
Totally agree with what you said. I saw that tremble too.
While he said that "no one is going after your guns", he clearly believes that it should be regulated. "We have car registrations and annual inspections every year." were his words. Someone chimed in and said that unlike car ownership, gun ownership is a constitutional right.
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We are coming down pretty hard on Willie Espero on this PUBLIC forum.
I think he deserves a little credit for engaging the public and admitting the embarrassing fact that he didn't know what was in that RAP BACK bill.
In the end we all want the same result. We just disagree on how best to accomplish that.
I'm not sure I want to give any "credit" to a politician who "writes", submits, sponsors, gets committee hearings for, and engineers passage of law that he hasn't read nor understands. No, I am sure. I don't want to give him any credit. At all. Unless it's credit for being a tool, a moron a less-than-satisfactory-intellectually-capable legislator and guilty of violating his oath of office to uphold the constitutions.
Holding in common a desired "result" of less crime is no excuse for him/them passing laws that impact law-abiding citizens by denying them their rights and having no effect whatsoever on crime.
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It's certainly an issue of not understanding the in adamant tool. Who was the reseeding hairline badly dressed lawyer guy arguing what would gun people want to see happen? He was sitting to the right next to the sundress lady who feels better she didn't need a gun to protect herself.
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I don't know his babe but he is an anti. I've seen him around the capital before. He likes to make remarks to those sitting next to him.
On a side note, I overheard one of the anti people saying they were surprised so many pro gun people showed up and how educated they were. They seemed baffled.
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"How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, and taken care of."....Dr. Suzanna Gratia Hupp (Suzzana Hupp's parents were killed in the Lubby's Cafeteria shooting in Texas)
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I'm not sure I want to give any "credit" to a politician who "writes", submits, sponsors, gets committee hearings for, and engineers passage of law that he hasn't read nor understands. No, I am sure. I don't want to give him any credit. At all. Unless it's credit for being a tool, a moron a less-than-satisfactory-intellectually-capable legislator and guilty of violating his oath of office to uphold the constitutions.
Holding in common a desired "result" of less crime is no excuse for him/them passing laws that impact law-abiding citizens by denying them their rights and having no effect whatsoever on crime.
Agreed. I also don't think we should be easing up on him, or any other politician for that matter. We ought to make everyone aware that these are the kind of people we are putting into elected office. His claim that he didn't understand what RAP BACK was about is him admitting his incompetence and admitting he can't do his job. And if he just said that to ease his guilty conscience and shift blame, then him pushing this bill is deceitful malfeasance. Either way, this is not the kind of person we should have in office.
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I'd encourage others to write or call Espero's office and ask for details about his statements. Please share any responses here.
Here's my email:
Senator Espero,
My understanding it that at last nights public meeting in Room 229 you made statements to the effect that you may not have fully understood the full scope, meaning or consequences of your bill SB2954, now Act 108.
Could you please tell me specifically what it is about the bill that you did not understand and what you intend to do about the (perhaps unintended) consequences for Hawaii's law-abiding firearms owners who may now be subject to being listed in a federal database due their exercising their Second Amendment guaranteed civil right to keep and bear arms, which would be a direct violation of the Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA) and various other privacy laws?
thank you,
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Senator Will Espero Contact Info
Senate District 19
Hawaii State Capitol
Room 206
phone: 808-586-6360
fax: 808-586-6361
senespero@capitol.hawaii.gov
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/memberpage.aspx?member=espero (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/memberpage.aspx?member=espero)
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It's certainly an issue of not understanding the in adamant tool. Who was the reseeding hairline badly dressed lawyer guy arguing what would gun people want to see happen? He was sitting to the right next to the sundress lady who feels better she didn't need a gun to protect herself.
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His name was Marcus L. Landsberg IV
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We are coming down pretty hard on Willie Espero on this PUBLIC forum.
I think he deserves a little credit for engaging the public and admitting the embarrassing fact that he didn't know what was in that RAP BACK bill.
In the end we all want the same result. We just disagree on how best to accomplish that.
I'm sorry, but I have a different perspective, based on my prior experience with him over the years. He did not choose to engage "us" rather he tolerated us crashing his little gun control party that stared with an "impromptu" meeting at a bar (not that I have anything against that per se...) and had no intention of engaging or including "us" in the meeting. He was clearly in defensive mode and simply played the part of a seasoned politician....meaning he lied. He does not want the same result. He wants to create a name for himself and ascend to a higher office and he does not care how he gets there. If he thinks he can use the antigun forces to propel him upward, he will. Please do not be fooled by his words....he is the epitome of the of the crooked politician and the old meme of "How do you know when a politician is lying? His lips are moving."
That's not to say we shouldn't engage him...it just means you shouldn't go into that with unrealistic expectations or pin any hopes on his words.
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His name was Marcus L. Landsberg IV
I knew he was a lawyer... Not a very successful one based on his outfit. Oh sorry, was that too brash?
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I don't know his babe but he is an anti. I've seen him around the capital before. He likes to make remarks to those sitting next to him.
On a side note, I overheard one of the anti people saying they were surprised so many pro gun people showed up and how educated they were. They seemed baffled.
If you are referring to one of the teachers that was sitting by the open door, he was not, IMHO after talking to him, "anti-gun." He admitted his ignorance on gun issues and declined any opinion on what we should do to address the "gun violence issue" because he didn't feel informed enough to make that decision. He asked why we were so adamant about not using the terror watch list to restrict gun rights (he truly appeared concerned that we advocated letting terrorists get guns..). After explaining why he understood and agreed that using the lists was not appropriate.
My point, and I don't think you had any malicious intent and were probably just trying to differentiate "us" from "them," is that we need to be careful how we label people. We are not going to change Mr. Rainbow Lei or Ms. You're no Scholar's mind. But, we may be able to influence folks like the teacher....
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I knew he was a lawyer... Not a very successful one based on his outfit. Oh sorry, was that too brash?
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He reminded me of Oliver Platt who played a lawyer opposite Matthew McConaughey in "A Time to Kill"
(http://)
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If you are referring to one of the teachers that was sitting by the open door, he was not, IMHO after talking to him, "anti-gun." He admitted his ignorance on gun issues and declined any opinion on what we should do to address the "gun violence issue" because he didn't feel informed enough to make that decision. He asked why we were so adamant about not using the terror watch list to restrict gun rights (he truly appeared concerned that we advocated letting terrorists get guns..). After explaining why he understood and agreed that using the lists was not appropriate.
My point, and I don't think you had any malicious intent and were probably just trying to differentiate "us" from "them," is that we need to be careful how we label people. We are not going to change Mr. Rainbow Lei or Ms. You're no Scholar's mind. But, we may be able to influence folks like the teacher....
I was talking about the lawyer that's anti.
Some of them did seem honesty mis informed and probably never shot a firearm in their life or been through the registration process
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I knew he was a lawyer... Not a very successful one based on his outfit. Oh sorry, was that too brash?
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I don't know him, but he is a trial lawyer and isn't dumb (I talked to him after the meeting...). I think he leans anti but hard to tell from such a brief meeting. That being said, I don't think anyone should underestimate his abilities at this point. I think he'd be a formidable adversary if he took "their" side....I bet Rick Holcomb and Wolfwood know of him...
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I met Espero not too long ago, didn't seem like a bad guy. I do find it completely unacceptable that politicians champion legislation they haven't even read. I believe there should be criminal charges for this. If there is ever a lawsuit, I expect him to be held responsible.
Was he wearing his silly kangol hat? Haha
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I met Espero not too long ago, didn't seem like a bad guy. I do find it completely unacceptable that politicians champion legislation they haven't even read. I believe there should be criminal charges for this. If there is ever a lawsuit, I expect him to be held responsible.
Was he wearing his silly kangol hat? Haha
Neither he, nor any legislator can be held personally responsible for the adverse effects of any bill they sponsor, advocate, or vote/pass...absolute and/or qualified immunity.
http://federalpracticemanual.org/chapter8/section2
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I'm sorry, but I have a different perspective, based on my prior experience with him over the years. He did not choose to engage "us" rather he tolerated us crashing his little gun control party that stared with an "impromptu" meeting at a bar (not that I have anything against that per se...) and had no intention of engaging or including "us" in the meeting. He was clearly in defensive mode and simply played the part of a seasoned politician....meaning he lied. He does not want the same result. He wants to create a name for himself and ascend to a higher office and he does not care how he gets there. If he thinks he can use the antigun forces to propel him upward, he will. Please do not be fooled by his words....he is the epitome of the of the crooked politician and the old meme of "How do you know when a politician is lying? His lips are moving."
That's not to say we shouldn't engage him...it just means you shouldn't go into that with unrealistic expectations or pin any hopes on his words.
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I just meant no name calling in public.
Feel free to criticize wholeheartedly.
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Was he wearing his silly kangol hat? Haha
I can confirm hat was present at the meeting
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You guys have to remember (me included) that if you want to win the game first you have to understand the game.
This is not jousting, it's not 2 opposing forces clashing into each other trying to knock the other down, it's more like fencing, there is a lot of back and forth sparing before one strikes a blow.
Or to put it a way you guys might understand better, this is not a pistol target at 5 yards, this is long range sniping at a bowling bin a mile away, you have to take lots of things into account before you land a critical shot.
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Do you think Espero would honor his word that he would welcome another meeting with our group?
Would he be willing to sponsor and introduce some pro-gun bills?
1. Change may issue to shall issue?
2. Funding for gun safety education to reduce accidents?
3. Gun range improvements?
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Do you think Espero would honor his word that he would welcome another meeting with our group?
Would he be willing to sponsor and introduce some pro-gun bills?
In my e-mail today I asked him for help putting together somthing for firearms education in schools and securing funding, we shall see if he follows through
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The only way to deal with Will Espero is to get him out of office and support his opponent. Will has been a pain in the butt for HPD and other law enforcement agencies by attempting solve the so-called police oversight problem, so I don't expect him to ever get a SHOPO endorsement. Maybe him jumping on the gun control bandwagon is a way for him to make amends with HPD. This is not his first hair brained idea of a law he pushed through.
As for Marcus Landsberg, he is a very good trial attorney, very reasonable, but somewhat left leaning in my opinion.
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Maybe Will Espero should be asked about Hawaii's process to acquire firearms and see if he owns a gun. If he doesn't own a gun, he should attempt to sign up for Hunter Education . . . get his certificate, then go down and apply for a permit. He can do the waiting period, go through the motions of getting a firearm (notionally or actually), travel back and forth to the police station. See how he likes paying for parking, putting in annual leave at work, and actually getting a spot in the Hunter Education training. This experience might be enlightening for Will Espero and some of the other anti-gun folks. Who knows, maybe it will change their mind when they realize that Hawaii's process is pretty in-depth and that a criminal isn't going to go through all those hoops to get a gun.
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Maybe Will Espero should be asked about Hawaii's process to acquire firearms and see if he owns a gun. If he doesn't own a gun, he should attempt to sign up for Hunter Education . . . get his certificate, then go down and apply for a permit. He can do the waiting period, go through the motions of getting a firearm (notionally or actually), travel back and forth to the police station. See how he likes paying for parking, putting in annual leave at work, and actually getting a spot in the Hunter Education training. This experience might be enlightening for Will Espero and some of the other anti-gun folks. Who knows, maybe it will change their mind when they realize that Hawaii's process is pretty in-depth and that a criminal isn't going to go through all those hoops to get a gun.
Will does own at least 1 firearm, he stated such at the meeting
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Will does own at least 1 firearm, he stated such at the meeting
I don't understand people that own firearms and are anti-2A, unless they are politicians
I hate fence walkers. but they are perfect for politics.
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I'd like to propose a bill being able to hold the state of Hawaii police department liable for any harm that comes to ANYONE that is harmed because they were not able to defend themselves.
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Response from Espero re my previously posted email above:
Aloha [punaperson],
I understand the consequences of this measure as I believe it will add an extra layer of protection for our families and communities. I know it will not impact your constitutional right to purchase and own a gun as long as you are a law abiding citizen.
There was a question about how someone can get off the state's registration list once they have moved off island. (ie: military) I'm not sure there was a definitive answer to this question.
Since I am not an attorney, I rely on the state attorney's office for advise, guidance, and suggestions. As you know, the state AG supports the measure as drafted.
The Senate & House Judiciary Committees also held hearings and felt compelled to pass the measure.
Thanks for asking.
Will Espero
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That doesn't really sound anything like what oldfart wrote: "he [Espero] deserves a little credit for engaging the public and admitting the embarrassing fact that he didn't know what was in that RAP BACK bill."
It sounds more like "Military might have an issue when they transfer out of Hawaii, but other than that, if you don't like it you can move (before you get entered into the system... and since you cannot be "unregistered" as a firearm owner in Hawaii even if you move, that may not help if we decide to register all existing gun owners whether they ever buy another gun after the law is functional or not). Other than that, it's all good."
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Was he wearing his silly kangol hat? Haha
of course...
Stepped out the house stopped short, oh no
Went back in I forgot my kangol
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I'd like to propose a bill being able to hold the state of Hawaii police department liable for any harm that comes to ANYONE that is harmed because they were not able to defend themselves.
They all (legislators and law enforcement) have been granted (by themselves in the case of th legislature) some form of immunity, unless one can prove some kind of direct civil rights violation ("police brutality", etc.).
There is already longstanding Supreme Court precedent that law enforcement is not responsible for protecting any individual person or group of people, but only for protecting the "community in general". A cop can stand there after responding to your 911 call and watch a criminal torture and murder you and they are not liable for their lack of action to stop the criminal acts. That fact is actually an argument for why we should be allowed our right to bear firearms outside our homes since even if they could possibly protect us at the moment of a criminal assault (extremely unlikely they'd be there), they have no duty to do so, and no penalty for not doing so.
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Response from Espero re my previously posted email above:
Aloha [punaperson],
I understand the consequences of this measure as I believe it will add an extra layer of protection for our families and communities. I know it will not impact your constitutional right to purchase and own a gun as long as you are a law abiding citizen.
There was a question about how someone can get off the state's registration list once they have moved off island. (ie: military) I'm not sure there was a definitive answer to this question.
Since I am not an attorney, I rely on the state attorney's office for advise, guidance, and suggestions. As you know, the state AG supports the measure as drafted.
The Senate & House Judiciary Committees also held hearings and felt compelled to pass the measure.
Thanks for asking.
Will Espero
* * * *
That doesn't really sound anything like what oldfart wrote: "he [Espero] deserves a little credit for engaging the public and admitting the embarrassing fact that he didn't know what was in that RAP BACK bill."
It sounds more like "Military might have an issue when they transfer out of Hawaii, but other than that, if you don't like it you can move (before you get entered into the system... and since you cannot be "unregistered" as a firearm owner in Hawaii even if you move, that may not help if we decide to register all existing gun owners whether they ever buy another gun after the law is functional or not). Other than that, it's all good."
that's a polite & PC way of saying that I passed the measure despite the concerns you have. PERIOD.
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So i to got my reply and it reads :
Aloha Andrew,
Thanks for your comments last night. Mandating gun education would not pass in my opinion. I’m trying to get financial literacy mandated but with no luck to date. May I suggest you approach the DOE and ask if you or the NRA/HRA can go into schools to teach kids at your cost. Obviously, parental approval would be required. Not sure how DOE would react but my guess is not too open to the idea.
The open house at the shooting range recently is a good idea. Maybe that can be done more often like once a month. You can also try Boys and Girls Club, YMCA, or Boy Scouts but I’m not sure gun education is a priority for them. Doesn’t hurt to ask.
I’ll check with HPD about your comments below.
Have a good day.
Will Espero
To which i have replied :
So there is the major problem with getting meaningful gun safety laws in place, Its hard to do so why bother ?. Its easier to put emotion pulling laws into the system that do nothing to increase safety but give an illusion of doing so. Surely education children in the potential dangers and safety of firearms should be a priority we teach most basic safety minded things in this age group. We teach Stop drop and roll, Stranger danger, see something say something, sexual education and safety and of course Lock down drills.
Why are we not taking the precaution of teaching them that a firearm is not a toy should no be played with? I believe the current method of teaching is STOP, dont touch it, LEAVE the area, TELL an adult. These 3 thinks could save a child's life but yet the school systems wont teach them because they would rather pretend that guns dont exist.
Wouldn't you like to be able to stand on our side next time a tragic accident like this happens in Hawaii and say WE ASKED FOR EDUCATION ? instead of being the name of the senator who said "I did nothing because i did not think a bill would pass ?"
All we are looking for is the same as you, Meaningful gun safety law which have real results.
Thanks
Andrew
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Got my reply,
Andrew,
Make a proposal to the DOE/BOE. That’s where you start.
There are many areas one can argue that needs teaching: Financial Literacy, Dangers of internet, Raising a child, Anger management, Computer literacy, Multi-Cultural tolerance, etc. etc.
Start with a proposal Andrew.
That’s my advise. See if the NRA/HRA will finance it. Or you can finance it with a pilot program in a school willing to try.
I’ve given you a road map. See where it goes.
Also, do a free series on Olelo. That can be done. That would not be rejected. There’s another way to educate not only children but many adults too. I would watch it.
WE
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The only way Will Espero's idea makes sense is if he runs for Congress again during the next election cycle and pulls in liberal and anti-gun donors. This, along with police reform will be his platform for Congressional run.
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I'm sorry, but I don't see why we are trying to "work" with dude after the fact he put up and rammed through these bills even though he doesn't even know what they are about! No matter if they are unconstitutional or illegal or what.
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They all (legislators and law enforcement) have been granted (by themselves in the case of th legislature) some form of immunity, unless one can prove some kind of direct civil rights violation ("police brutality", etc.).
There is already longstanding Supreme Court precedent that law enforcement is not responsible for protecting any individual person or group of people, but only for protecting the "community in general". A cop can stand there after responding to your 911 call and watch a criminal torture and murder you and they are not liable for their lack of action to stop the criminal acts. That fact is actually an argument for why we should be allowed our right to bear firearms outside our homes since even if they could possibly protect us at the moment of a criminal assault (extremely unlikely they'd be there), they have no duty to do so, and no penalty for not doing so.
The right to protect ourselves in public was also one of those "longstanding" constitutional rights as well.
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Do you think Espero would honor his word that he would welcome another meeting with our group?
Would he be willing to sponsor and introduce some pro-gun bills?
1. Change may issue to shall issue?
2. Funding for gun safety education to reduce accidents?
3. Gun range improvements?
I say it is worth a try. He did say already though that he was going to wait for the Baker case to go through so I think he would just kick the can down the road for now.
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I don't understand people that own firearms and are anti-2A, unless they are politicians
I hate fence walkers. but they are perfect for politics.
I wouldn't characterize him as anti 2A, unless he is lying about owning a gun. He thinks it can and should be regulated more than we do but I don't assume he is completely anti guns.
I figure that as a politician he is always walking the line to try and not offend too many in any direction. To seek re-election you kind of have to do that. I don't know exactly where he stands since I don't know him personally and I cannot read his mind, but this is just my estimation from what I saw in the meeting.
Do we even see this much dialogue from anyone else in out state government?
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The only way to deal with Will Espero is to get him out of office and support his opponent.
+1 !!
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I believe what he does, not what he says
he is anti-2A. and a bad politician. he should GTFO!
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Don't forget that WE was going to have a gun control meeting until we showed up.
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Don't forget that WE was going to have a gun control meeting until we showed up.
exactly!
let's wait and see if this meeting with other senators takes place
until then...
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I wouldn't characterize him as anti 2A, unless he is lying about owning a gun. He thinks it can and should be regulated more than we do but I don't assume he is completely anti guns.
Look at his FB pages. Seems very proud of his anti gun bills, and there are lots of them.
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The right to protect ourselves in public was also one of those "longstanding" constitutional rights as well.
That's why individuals have to decide whether they want to follow the law and potentially jeopardize the safety of themselves and their families.
Espero will not be providing any help of any kind on this issue. Unless you count mealy-mouthed weasel words set against a long history of anti-rights actions as "help".
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It appears that his opponents in the 2016 race are (or were):
Kurt Fevella
Chris Fidelibus
Senate District 19 is way beyond my district, however, I have to believe that there are many here and in the shooting community that live in that district. From my conversations with a couple of member of the RRB and HPS, those that know of him really don't like him (putting it mildly). I would be willing to bet that it wouldn't be difficult to mobilize many to support his opponents in light of his recent pushing and passing anti-gun legislation. Frankly, it might not be enough to oust him, but I would hope that it would get his attention.
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I wouldn't characterize him as anti 2A, unless he is lying about owning a gun. He thinks it can and should be regulated more than we do but I don't assume he is completely anti guns.
I figure that as a politician he is always walking the line to try and not offend too many in any direction. To seek re-election you kind of have to do that. I don't know exactly where he stands since I don't know him personally and I cannot read his mind, but this is just my estimation from what I saw in the meeting.
Do we even see this much dialogue from anyone else in out state government?
You seem to have decided "anti 2A" is synonymous with "anti gun". Not true.
"2A" means the right to keep and bear arms with minimal restrictions on WHO may own WHAT. Trying to ban types of rifles based on cosmetics or their being used in a very small percentage of gun-related crimes is anti 2A.
"Anti gun" -- I'd have to say not if he truly owns a gun, shoots it regularly, and actually picked it and bought it himself.
I would classify him as anti 2A, with a borderline leaning toward anti gun.
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I'm sorry, but I don't see why we are trying to "work" with dude after the fact he put up and rammed through these bills even though he doesn't even know what they are about! No matter if they are unconstitutional or illegal or what.
Why work with him ? Same reason i will go to any senator who says they want to do something about gun control,
In this case, Next time there is a accidental shooting of a kid and the media is making a big deal about it i can now turn round and say I asked senator Espero to help fund cont safety for children and he told me NO because its to hard, Now does the gun community look bad or does the senator ?.
Sure it would be great to have all Pro 2a senators and Representatives but its not going to happen, Hawaii is a very liberal state, The only way we can control the gun control laws is making it look like WE are doing something. There is no consequence to them violating our rights, They dont care how much we sue its not there money they are losing its ours.
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You seem to have decided "anti 2A" is synonymous with "anti gun". Not true.
"2A" means the right to keep and bear arms with minimal restrictions on WHO may own WHAT. Trying to ban types of rifles based on cosmetics or their being used in a very small percentage of gun-related crimes is anti 2A.
"Anti gun" -- I'd have to say not if he truly owns a gun, shoots it regularly, and actually picked it and bought it himself.
I would classify him as anti 2A, with a borderline leaning toward anti gun.
A fair distinction perhaps.
I think in his mind though he thinks he is within the 2nd amendment to put in place the restrictions or regulations he proposes. We can disagree of course but that leads into a separate topic of legal interpretation of the 2nd amendment of course but a different interpretation isn't the same thing as anti 2A. Who knows though, he may actually want to revoke the 2nd amendment.
He says he owns a firearm, that is a start. How many other legislators own firearms?
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Why work with him ? Same reason i will go to any senator who says they want to do something about gun control,
In this case, Next time there is a accidental shooting of a kid and the media is making a big deal about it i can now turn round and say I asked senator Espero to help fund cont safety for children and he told me NO because its to hard, Now does the gun community look bad or does the senator ?.
Sure it would be great to have all Pro 2a senators and Representatives but its not going to happen, Hawaii is a very liberal state, The only way we can control the gun control laws is making it look like WE are doing something. There is no consequence to them violating our rights, They dont care how much we sue its not there money they are losing its ours.
That is all well and good. However, we all tried to (before all these bills where passed) reason with him about how and why these bills are not useful for stopping gun violence, helping with gun safety, and illegal to implement. There were hundreds of opposition testimony was submitted showing that many of us opposed the bills, many of the testimony pointing out the many factors of why they will not work for their intended purpose, yet he and others rammed them through anyway. It is doubtful he and the others even read or considered the testimony.
If he wasn't up for re-election this Nov, he wouldn't give a rats about us or our suggestions. He doesn't care about gun safety nor self defense. He is trying to pander to us with the illusion he is now taking a more centered approach. That way he doesn't alienate his base and at the same time, maybe keep his pro 2A voters.
I don't believe Hawaii is as liberal as you think. There are some very vocal liberals and fewer vocal conservatives. Most people are more conservative than liberal in practice, the problem is most people do not vote, and if they do vote they let others, with their own interest in mind, decide who gets voted for.
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It appears that his opponents in the 2016 race are (or were):
Kurt Fevella
Chris Fidelibus
Senate District 19 is way beyond my district, however, I have to believe that there are many here and in the shooting community that live in that district. From my conversations with a couple of member of the RRB and HPS, those that know of him really don't like him (putting it mildly). I would be willing to bet that it wouldn't be difficult to mobilize many to support his opponents in light of his recent pushing and passing anti-gun legislation. Frankly, it might not be enough to oust him, but I would hope that it would get his attention.
I attempted contact with Kurt Fevella to take a stance, he has not responded. He is not very popular among local Ewa Beachians and doubt he would have much support from them. I cannot find any contact info for Chris Fidelibus, election wise. Does anyone know?
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A fair distinction perhaps.
I think in his mind though he thinks he is within the 2nd amendment to put in place the restrictions or regulations he proposes. We can disagree of course but that leads into a separate topic of legal interpretation of the 2nd amendment of course but a different interpretation isn't the same thing as anti 2A. Who knows though, he may actually want to revoke the 2nd amendment.
He says he owns a firearm, that is a start. How many other legislators own firearms?
I have dealt with Espero for many years now. The last time I talked to him about his firearm, a small pistol by his description, he didn't even know where it was because he said it was being stored at someone's home.
He is anti-gun and anti-2A. I can't say it any more plainly. How to deal with him? Get someone else elected. He thinks he's invincible and can do what ever he wants....he needs to find out that's not the case and loosing his seat is the only definitive way to send him the appropriate message.
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There were hundreds of opposition testimony was submitted showing that many of us opposed the bills, many of the testimony pointing out the many factors of why they will not work for their intended purpose, yet he and others rammed them through anyway. It is doubtful he and the others even read or considered the testimony.
I've posted before about an incident several years ago during a committee hearing that Espero chaired. He began reading the names of citizens who had submitted testimony opposing the second gun control bill the committee was considering that day. As he got about 4 or 5 names into the list he laughed as he made a remark to the effect of "Haha. I think I've seen these names before." As if those people are the "gun nuts" and are the "usual suspects" and perhaps can be discounted... otherwise, why is it funny? I wonder if he ever did the same thing during any committee hearing listing the names of those submitting testimony in support of same-sex marriage?
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I have dealt with Espero for many years now. The last time I talked to him about his firearm, a small pistol by his description, he didn't even know where it was because he said it was being stored at someone's home.
He is anti-gun and anti-2A. I can't say it any more plainly. How to deal with him? Get someone else elected. He thinks he's invincible and can do what ever he wants....he needs to find out that's not the case and loosing his seat is the only definitive way to send him the appropriate message.
totally agree with you. he needs to be gone!
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Totally agree with what you said. I saw that tremble too.
While he said that "no one is going after your guns", he clearly believes that it should be regulated. "We have car registrations and annual inspections every year." were his words. Someone chimed in and said that unlike car ownership, gun ownership is a constitutional right.
You do not have to register a car as property. You register the car to drive. That is not an argument at all.
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You do not have to register a car as property. You register the car to drive. That is not an argument at all.
Unless I'm mistaken, the only reason a car is registered is because it is property. In some states or counties, they charge property taxes on the value of the car. Here, you pay by the weight, type and use of the vehicle so the state can tax you:
Vehicle Registration Fees in Hawaii
Vehicle registration fees in Hawaii are based upon your county of residence, vehicle weight, plus taxes and other county/state fees.
You will need to contact your motor vehicle registration office to find out exactly how much you will owe.
Below are some example registration fees for Hawaii County:
State fee: $45.
County fee: $12.
Transfer fee: $5.
State weight tax:
0 to 4,000 lbs.: 1.75 cents per lbs.
4,001 to 7,000 lbs.: 2 cents per lbs.
7,001 to 10,000 lbs.: 2.25 cents per lbs.
Over 10,001 lbs.: $300 flat rate.
County weight tax:
Passenger vehicles & trucks up to 6,500 lbs.: 1.25 cents per lb. (minimum of $12).
All vehicles over 6,500 lbs.: 2.5 cents per lbs.
Beautification fee: $1.
Sticker renewal/replacement: $0.50.
Plate replacement: $5.
Duplicate registration: $5
Didn't see anything about "driving tax".
Title conveys ownership. You don't have to register a car if you only use it on private property.
Registration identifies legally bound registered operator for financial and legal obligations. If you hit someone, the driver and registered owner (not always the same) can be held financially liable for any damages or injuries.
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but I wanted to make sure we have our facts straight. :shaka:
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I sent Mr. Esepro an email as a military member.
I can unregister my car - check
I can unregister my bike - check
I can unregister my pet - check
I cannot unregister my gun.
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Unless I'm mistaken, the only reason a car is registered is because it is property. In some states or counties, they charge property taxes on the value of the car. Here, you pay by the weight, type and use of the vehicle so the state can tax you:
Didn't see anything about "driving tax".
Title conveys ownership. You don't have to register a car if you only use it on private property.
Registration identifies legally bound registered operator for financial and legal obligations. If you hit someone, the driver and registered owner (not always the same) can be held financially liable for any damages or injuries.
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but I wanted to make sure we have our facts straight. :shaka:
Not me. I am military. I do not pay for the value of the car.
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I have dealt with Espero for many years now. The last time I talked to him about his firearm, a small pistol by his description, he didn't even know where it was because he said it was being stored at someone's home.
poor accountability...is that a pre req for being a lawmaker in Hawaii?
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Unless I'm mistaken, the only reason a car is registered is because it is property. In some states or counties, they charge property taxes on the value of the car. Here, you pay by the weight, type and use of the vehicle so the state can tax you:
Didn't see anything about "driving tax".
Title conveys ownership. You don't have to register a car if you only use it on private property.
Registration identifies legally bound registered operator for financial and legal obligations. If you hit someone, the driver and registered owner (not always the same) can be held financially liable for any damages or injuries.
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but I wanted to make sure we have our facts straight. :shaka:
If I have an off-road motocycle or vehicle, or a vehicle that I do not intend to drive on a public street, I do not need to register it. The fees are intended to maintain the infrastructure for the driving public and the administrative costs.
I have a Kawasaki Mule that I maintain for work. It has never been registered and never will be....
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I have dealt with Espero for many years now. The last time I talked to him about his firearm, a small pistol by his description, he didn't even know where it was because he said it was being stored at someone's home.
I read this three or four times, and nowhere did I see "at someone's home" in the list ...
[§134-25] Place to keep pistol or revolver; penalty. (a) Except as provided in sections 134-5 and 134-9, all firearms shall be confined to the possessor's place of business, residence, or sojourn; provided that it shall be lawful to carry unloaded firearms in an enclosed container from the place of purchase to the purchaser's place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places upon change of place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places and the following:
(1) A place of repair;
(2) A target range;
(3) A licensed dealer's place of business;
(4) An organized, scheduled firearms show or exhibit;
(5) A place of formal hunter or firearm use training or instruction; or
(6) A police station.
"Enclosed container" means a rigidly constructed receptacle, or a commercially manufactured gun case, or the equivalent thereof that completely encloses the firearm.
(b) Any person violating this section by carrying or possessing a loaded or unloaded pistol or revolver shall be guilty of a class B felony. [L 2006, c 66, pt of §1
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I read this three or four times, and nowhere did I see "at someone's home" in the list ...
Yep...and you can't loan out a handgun either.
So.....
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Yep...and you can't loan out a handgun either.
So.....
I think we need an opinion from Major Robinson on this one. The lawmaker potentially breaking the law? Hmmmmmmm
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So a lawmaker breaking the law and wants to burden us LAW ABIDING citizens with more legislation? Fucking infuriating.
So again - what have WE done? Most of us went through the arduous process of getting a permit to acquire, waiting 2 weeks, going back to HPD main with our firearm in hand to show them what we got and this guy Espero wants to burden us with what?! after he can't remember where his handgun is? :grrr:
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I sent Mr. Esepro an email as a military member.
I can unregister my car - check
I can unregister my bike - check
I can unregister my pet - check
I cannot unregister my gun.
If you have nothing to hide, why would you want to unregister your guns? /sarc
Just for fun you could establish residence in each state requiring registration of some category of firearm (District of Columbia, Hawaii, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Connecticut, and California), register them in each state, and then finally move to one of the 44 states that requires no registration of any firearm. Then if they ever come looking for you/your guns, it'd be FUBAR for them! :shaka:
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I have dealt with Espero for many years now. The last time I talked to him about his firearm, a small pistol by his description, he didn't even know where it was because he said it was being stored at someone's home.
I find it hard to believe that he would reveal such a fact, though I guess I oughtn't be surprised that he either 1. doesn't know the laws regarding firearms (he just knows we need more of them), and/or 2. assumes that even if he is found out to be breaking the law that he will use one of his near infinite number of "get out of jail free" cards issued to him by his pals like major Robinson.
So for all he knows his gun is sitting on top of a nightstand, or in a bedside table drawer and there may be young children in the house (or it's an easy target for theft)? :crazy: :wtf:
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I find it hard to believe that he would reveal such a fact, though I guess I oughtn't be surprised that he either 1. doesn't know the laws regarding firearms (he just knows we need more of them), and/or 2. assumes that even if he is found out to be breaking the law that he will use one of his near infinite number of "get out of jail free" cards issued to him by his pals like major Robinson.
So for all he knows his gun is sitting on top of a nightstand, or in a bedside table drawer and there may be young children in the house (or it's an easy target for theft)? :crazy: :wtf:
hmmm so like HART where the City Council distances themselves from any accountability and liability Mr. Espero does the same thing with "his" gun.
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Mr. Espero replied and we have been exchanging cordial emails. He has kicked me over to Maj Robinson who of course is out until the 4th but I will await his answer. If I do not get a reply from Mr. Robinson then I will forward everything to the AG Douglas Chin.
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However he forwarded me an email. Basically it states that August is the month of going live with Rapback and if you no longer possess firearms in the State of Hawaii you will be removed from Rapback.
There were three questions I asked from a military standpoint to Major Robinson.
1. What is required as proof to be removed?
2. Are all currently registered owners going into Rapback?
3. Will being removed from Rapback also de-register all guns when that person leaves?
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However he forwarded me an email. Basically it states that August is the month of going live with Rapback and if you no longer possess firearms in the State of Hawaii you will be removed from Rapback.
There were three questions I asked from a military standpoint to Major Robinson.
1. What is required as proof to be removed?
2. Are all currently registered owners going into Rapback?
3. Will being removed from Rapback also de-register all guns when that person leaves?
You can not be "Removed from rapback" you can be de-registered, meaning they no longer send reports, Your fingerprints, photo and personal information entered remains in the system.
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That being said if you are military, you are already in the system so.........
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You can not be "Removed from rapback" you can be de-registered, meaning they no longer send reports, Your fingerprints, photo and personal information entered remains in the system.
Word for word quote from the email from Maj Robinson.
"Any one who we enter into Rapback can be very easily removed by us. It is a simple process. So once we are aware a person no longer posses firearms in Hawaii we will remove them from Rapback."
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That being said if you are military, you are already in the system so.........
Would you care to elaborate?
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That being said if you are military, you are already in the system so.........
???? Why would you say that? I am in many government databases but they are all DoD. Not DoJ.
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???? Why would you say that? I am in many government databases but they are all DoD. Not DoJ.
IAFIS should be a familiar term. That's been the FBI fingerprint ID system for a long time.
NGI (Next Generation Identification) is replacing IAFIS and adding other biometric ID artificats, like retinal scans, palm prints, and I wouldn't rule out DNA.
RapBack is just a matching and reporting subsystem of NGI. So, if your prints are input into NGI for RapBack, and then the subscriber cancels the report requests, or they expire based on a provided end date, those prints will remain in the NGI system.
Once they have you, they have you.
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IAFIS should be a familiar term. That's been the FBI fingerprint ID system for a long time.
NGI (Next Generation Identification) is replacing IAFIS and adding other biometric ID artificats, like retinal scans, palm prints, and I wouldn't rule out DNA.
RapBack is just a matching and reporting subsystem of NGI. So, if your prints are input into NGI for RapBack, and then the subscriber cancels the report requests, or they expire based on a provided end date, those prints will remain in the NGI system.
Once they have you, they have you.
So our fingerprints and DNA samples that I did back in 1991 went in for MIA reasons. Not any FBI database. I truly have no idea what you are talking about and I have been active duty for 25 years.
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IAFIS should be a familiar term. That's been the FBI fingerprint ID system for a long time.
NGI (Next Generation Identification) is replacing IAFIS and adding other biometric ID artificats, like retinal scans, palm prints, and I wouldn't rule out DNA.
RapBack is just a matching and reporting subsystem of NGI. So, if your prints are input into NGI for RapBack, and then the subscriber cancels the report requests, or they expire based on a provided end date, those prints will remain in the NGI system.
Once they have you, they have you.
And another point. The handgun registration in the state of Hawaii only requires a thumbprint.
For them to put me in Rapback I would need to apply again to gain all of my fingerprints. I am not applying for another permit as long as I live within the confines of this state. That I can assure you of.
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I just want to be clear on something else.
I love the Islands, the people are great (for the most part) but this state sucks ass. This is the most corrupt, unorganized, over reaching, over taxing, nepotism riddled state I have ever lived in and that includes Maryland. For the most part people here just accept this way of living and I cannot. I like living free vice having good weather and a good view.
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And another point. The handgun registration in the state of Hawaii only requires a thumbprint.
For them to put me in Rapback I would need to apply again to gain all of my fingerprints. I am not applying for another permit as long as I live within the confines of this state. That I can assure you of.
A thumbprint is all the form requires. But for an FBI NICS background check, you provided a full fingerprint card.
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So our fingerprints and DNA samples that I did back in 1991 went in for MIA reasons. Not any FBI database. I truly have no idea what you are talking about and I have been active duty for 25 years.
The FBI and other agencies have access to military ID databases.
Haven't you been watching CSI or NCIS? ???
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The FBI and other agencies have access to military ID databases.
Haven't you been watching CSI or NCIS? ???
Watching a little too much TV huh? ::) ::)
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Watching a little too much TV huh? ::) ::)
No. I know military investigative units routinely cooperate with civilian agencies. There is little privacy for military members. That's one of the many rights and freedoms we give up when volunteering.
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No. I know military investigative units routinely cooperate with civilian agencies. There is little privacy for military members. That's one of the many rights and freedoms we give up when volunteering.
But those freedoms given up do not include firearms lists as a private citizen. I am still one of those at the end of the day.
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I just want to be clear on something else.
I love the Islands, the people are great (for the most part) but this state sucks ass. This is the most corrupt, unorganized, over reaching, over taxing, nepotism riddled state I have ever lived in and that includes Maryland. For the most part people here just accept this way of living and I cannot. I like living free vice having good weather and a good view.
Sadly, I agree.
What to do? Run for office and clean up?
That's a lot of cleaning. Enough for a lifetime season of Hoarders.
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And another point. The handgun registration in the state of Hawaii only requires a thumbprint.
For them to put me in Rapback I would need to apply again to gain all of my fingerprints. I am not applying for another permit as long as I live within the confines of this state. That I can assure you of.
The new law says you have to do it when you register a firearm as well, So if you get a pistol, you get a permit and a background check, you wait 14 days pick up the pistol and get another background check.
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So our fingerprints and DNA samples that I did back in 1991 went in for MIA reasons. Not any FBI database. I truly have no idea what you are talking about and I have been active duty for 25 years.
As its name suggests, the DNA Repository was initially conceived solely to identify the remains of service members. However, a small entry in the huge 2003 National Defense Authorization Act, “signed by President Bush on December 2, 2002, overrides Pentagon policy that the DNA samples be used almost solely to identity troops killed in combat,” and allows access to the Repository for law enforcement purposes.
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As its name suggests, the DNA Repository was initially conceived solely to identify the remains of service members. However, a small entry in the huge 2003 National Defense Authorization Act, “signed by President Bush on December 2, 2002, overrides Pentagon policy that the DNA samples be used almost solely to identity troops killed in combat,” and allows access to the Repository for law enforcement purposes.
Did not know that. Still I argue none of that identifies me as a gun owner.
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Did not know that. Still I argue none of that identifies me as a gun owner.
that's what your phone meta data does for them though. by recording and looking up the history of just the places that your phone has been to, they can paint a picture of your habits. not to mention that fact they collect information on everything that happens on the open web.
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that's what your phone meta data does for them though. by recording and looking up the history of just the places that your phone has been to, they can paint a picture of your habits. not to mention that fact they collect information on everything that happens on the open web.
So I guess we should stop fighting this then and just roll over like fisheye.
Sorry that is not me.
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Be like politicians , deny everything even if they show you on a video. Then say depends what is ,is.
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Someone "in the business" told me that several people have recently told him that rather than allow themselves to be entered into the RapBack system, they intend to purchase products on the mainland and/or produce their own. He's kinda pissed off because he's losing business.
(http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=517582&d=1467343472)
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Someone "in the business" told me that several people have recently told him that rather than allow themselves to be entered into the RapBack system, they intend to purchase products on the mainland and/or produce their own. He's kinda pissed off because he's losing business.
(http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=517582&d=1467343472)
Well maybe these business will start to care and become more active in raising support, encouraging folks to submit testimony and lobby the legislature.
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I know I will never buy another firearm in this state. This hurt businesses for sure.
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I know I will never buy another firearm in this state. This hurt businesses for sure.
Then they win, 100% gun control
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Then they win, 100% gun control
If those people follow through on their statements about acquiring "undocumented" firearms, then they will be criminals. I'm not sure that's the same as "100% gun control". Having and showing little or no respect for the civil rights of firearm owners has consequences. Unintended consequences, perhaps, but consequences. I don't think it'd take a genius to figure out that when something gets banned, people who really want those banned items will find a "work around". The compliance rates for bans/registration/confiscation in New York, Connecticut, and Australia were all estimated to be less than 20%. The government created hundreds of thousands of criminals out of previously law-abiding citizens with the literal stroke of a pen. And for no legitimate "public safety" reason. Makes one wonder what the real reason/goal could be to turn that many people who haven't harmed anyone into criminals and thus be subject to arrest, prosecution, and incarceration. It's almost like they're up to something and being less than totally transparent about it.
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Then they win, 100% gun control
Again I do not fall into the same category as most others on this site. I am military and will be moving away from this liberal utopia within the next 24 months and returning to Georgia.
I am up for fighting this legislation as well as this idea here that lawmakers seem to think law making fixes a "crime" problem here in the islands. What I find even funnier is the current tyrants here brag about a low crime rate but here they are continuing with more restrictions and infringement.
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Again I do not fall into the same category as most others on this site. I am military and will be moving away from this liberal utopia within the next 24 months and returning to Georgia.
I am up for fighting this legislation as well as this idea here that lawmakers seem to think law making fixes a "crime" problem here in the islands. What I find even funnier is the current tyrants here brag about a low crime rate but here they are continuing with more restrictions and infringement.
Well, if some is "good" and more is "better" then too much should be "just right". Whether it works or not...
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After a great meeting with Sen Espero on Monday, I was able to talk to him in person regarding SB 2954. He told me to make sure I sent an email voicing my concerns to the Attorney General's office and CC him as well.
Just for the community's edifcation, I am including the contents of my email... and of course their respsonse, which was pretty unbelievable.
Feel free to discuss & share your comments
~Friction
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After a great meeting with Sen Espero on Monday, I was able to talk to him in person regarding SB 2954. He told me to make sure I sent an email voicing my concerns to the Attorney General's office and CC him as well.
Just for the community's edifcation, I am including the contents of my email... and of course their respsonse, which was pretty unbelievable.
Feel free to discuss & share your comments
~Friction
Good for you. Thanks for the effort.
Sounds like you need to ask your representatives to forward your questions to the AG on your behalf. The response letter said they will furnish written legal opinions to the legislature..
Make sure to copy Senator Espero. Maybe since he suggested going to the AG directly, he'd like to know that's just not how things are done! He may even forward your letter himself to the AG as a courtesy, assuming he's not your district's Senator.
Just my 2 pesos.
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After a great meeting with Sen Espero on Monday, I was able to talk to him in person regarding SB 2954. He told me to make sure I sent an email voicing my concerns to the Attorney General's office and CC him as well.
Just for the community's edifcation, I am including the contents of my email... and of course their respsonse, which was pretty unbelievable.
Feel free to discuss & share your comments
~Friction
Welcome to the forum Taj, why don't you go here and tell us a little bit about yourself, https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=4.0
I am not surprised by the reply from the AG's office one bit.
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The Attorney General's office will not interpret any law for you, however, they WILL be happy to prosecute you for breaking that law should your interpretation of it be different from their previously undisclosed interpretation.
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After a great meeting with Sen Espero on Monday, I was able to talk to him in person regarding SB 2954. He told me to make sure I sent an email voicing my concerns to the Attorney General's office and CC him as well.
Just for the community's edifcation, I am including the contents of my email... and of course their respsonse, which was pretty unbelievable.
Feel free to discuss & share your comments
~Friction
As the AG doesnt want to answer your questions for you i will
It is in violation but we dont care, Its an election year and we want to look like were doing something about non existing gun violence in Hawaii, That being said the law dosent really do what we said it does yet. But when it does you can sue us, Its your money well spend on defense and when we lose its your money we will pay the lawyers with.
We dont care about your privacy or freedoms see above answers for details.
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After a great meeting with Sen Espero on Monday, I was able to talk to him in person regarding SB 2954. He told me to make sure I sent an email voicing my concerns to the Attorney General's office and CC him as well.
Just for the community's edifcation, I am including the contents of my email... and of course their respsonse, which was pretty unbelievable.
Feel free to discuss & share your comments
~Friction
...
Welcome to the forum.
Thanks for tbe effort.
That is so f..d up.
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2aHawaii, we need to get better organized. How can we? Well, I have been speaking with two pro 2a lawyers on the mainland. Allen Beck and Steven Stsmboulieh. In fact, Allen Beck has worked in conjunction with Richard Holcomb. They were instrumental in getting Kaiser to correct their bad practices with releasing better information to HPD. Steven and Allen both said they want to help. But of course money talks. They know The HRA president and his assistant and as I understand there is supposed to be a fund raiser. Please inform me and the others if in fact this is true. I've tried to reach out to HRA, with no luck. I'm tired of this tyranny and want to get the ball rolling. The politicians don't care, we need to be more vigilant of our rights or they will just disappear as they are in California. Thoughts?
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After a great meeting with Sen Espero on Monday, I was able to talk to him in person regarding SB 2954. He told me to make sure I sent an email voicing my concerns to the Attorney General's office and CC him as well.
Just for the community's edifcation, I am including the contents of my email... and of course their respsonse, which was pretty unbelievable.
Feel free to discuss & share your comments
~Friction
Well written Taj, if it's okay I'd like to include these emails with the one I will cont duct tomorrow. Please let me know if this will not be a problem.
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Absolutely! Please share
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Absolutely! Please share
Great, thanks and I'm curious the bs response they will give me.
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After a great meeting with Sen Espero on Monday, I was able to talk to him in person regarding SB 2954. He told me to make sure I sent an email voicing my concerns to the Attorney General's office and CC him as well.
Just for the community's edifcation, I am including the contents of my email... and of course their respsonse, which was pretty unbelievable.
Feel free to discuss & share your comments
~Friction
We should save this response as it could be used to defend someone who gets caught in some law twist. It could go to show that the AG's office refused to help citizens clarify legal gun questions. Thanks for posting this.
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We should save this response as it could be used to defend someone who gets caught in some law twist. It could go to show that the AG's office refused to help citizens clarify legal gun questions. Thanks for posting this.
The AG is bond by law not to interpret laws to the general public under HRS.
However, your locally elected official can ask them for you.
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We should save this response as it could be used to defend someone who gets caught in some law twist. It could go to show that the AG's office refused to help citizens clarify legal gun questions. Thanks for posting this.
Can you state a past case, or come up with a realistic hypothetical case, which illustrates what you are saying? I honestly can't figure out what you mean by "some law twist" or how this canned response from the AG could be used as a defense.
Maybe if I had the same lawyer schooling and legal studies you say you've had, I'd be able to grab my class notes from that lecture on law twists.
:wave:
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Has anyone given any thought the my post earlier. We really need to do something more. Suing I think would be a better solution to the politicians nonexistent care for our rights. Let's do something more.
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Has anyone given any thought the my post earlier. We really need to do something more. Suing I think would be a better solution to the politicians nonexistent care for our rights. Let's do something more.
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see reply #3 https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=23751.0
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2aHawaii, we need to get better organized. How can we? Well, I have been speaking with two pro 2a lawyers on the mainland. Allen Beck and Steven Stsmboulieh. In fact, Allen Beck has worked in conjunction with Richard Holcomb. They were instrumental in getting Kaiser to correct their bad practices with releasing better information to HPD. Steven and Allen both said they want to help. But of course money talks. They know The HRA president and his assistant and as I understand there is supposed to be a fund raiser. Please inform me and the others if in fact this is true. I've tried to reach out to HRA, with no luck. I'm tired of this tyranny and want to get the ball rolling. The politicians don't care, we need to be more vigilant of our rights or they will just disappear as they are in California. Thoughts?
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AMEN to that! We've been trying for years to get everyone rolling in the same direction. It's a very difficult thing to do. There are so many different factions, disciplines, and facets in the shoot community.
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AMEN to that! We've been trying for years to get everyone rolling in the same direction. It's a very difficult thing to do. There are so many different factions, disciplines, and facets in the shoot community.
Okay, seems to be an organizational issue then. We need to hit this like a grass roots effort. Know on doors, talk to gun stores, have actual meetings. I'm will to put in the grunt work, are the others.
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Okay, seems to be an organizational issue then. We need to hit this like a grass roots effort. Know on doors, talk to gun stores, have actual meetings. I'm will to put in the grunt work, are the others.
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It is much deeper than that, but We will continue to fight. Stay tuned for more efforts on the way, and thank you for volunteering!
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It is much deeper than that, but We will continue to fight. Stay tuned for more efforts on the way, and thank you for volunteering!
Why is it deeper then? It seems more like an organization problem. I'm not the end all be all but having lived here for twelve plus years seems we have an issue getting organized. Please enlighten me. Maybe I'm the ignorant one.
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Why is it deeper then? It seems more like an organization problem. I'm not the end all be all but having lived here for twelve plus years seems we have an issue getting organized. Please enlighten me. Maybe I'm the ignorant one.
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PM sent
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Just as I suspected, the attorney general would just pass the buck. Have one of his hunch man do his dirty work.
Mr. Schick,
I am in receipt of your email dated July 3, 2016, inquiring about SB 2954 which has recently been signed by Governor Ige. Unfortunately, the Attorney General cannot provide legal advice to private citizens. As provided by statute:
The department shall administer and render state legal services, including furnishing of written legal opinions to the governor, legislature, and such state departments and officers as the governor may direct; represent the State in all civil actions in which the State is a party; approve as to legality and form all documents relating to the acquisition of any land or interest in lands by the State; and, unless otherwise provided by law, prosecute cases involving violations of state laws and cases involving agreements, uniform laws, or other matters which are enforceable in the courts of the State. The attorney general shall be charged with such other duties and have such authority as heretofore provided by common law or statute. Section 26-7, Hawaii Revised Statutes.
I regret that we are unable to help you.
Kevin K. Takata
Supervising Deputy Attorney General
Criminal Justice Division
333 Queen Street, Suite 200
Honolulu, Hawaii 96813
(808)586-1075
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So, they are basically telling us:
1. The legislature makes the laws after the AG offers an opinion on the constitutionality and ability to withstand legal scrutiny.
2. If we break that law, the AG and prosecutor will prefer charges based upon laws they helped write and/or reviewed.
3. In order to know how to interpret the laws before or after we break them, we have to hire a professional lawyer -- a lawyer who was never included in the AG's review -- and they have to try to figure out what's legal and what can land us in jail.
4. Whether we obtain outside legal counsel or not, there is no guarantee a lawyer or "layman" could properly interpret the law based on hypotheticals. It takes a court to rule on cases which creates the body of knowledge on how the law is being applied.
So, we are paying tax money to the AG to help the legislature pass laws (rules) that we are all responsible for following, but can't get a correct interpretation from the AG's office because they apparently are representing the state's interests, not the interests of the people who pay them.
An analogy would be: Let's play a game. I'll make up the rules and give you a list. The only way you'll know if you understood what I wrote is after you receive a penalty or have a point subtracted as punishment. Only by making your own fouls, or learning from the fouls of other teams before you, can you figure out a strategy that avoids breaking the rules. Finally, you write me a check for making up the rules you all have to play by!
Do I have that right?
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Just as I suspected, the attorney general would just pass the buck. Have one of his hunch man do his dirty work.
Mr. Schick,
I am in receipt of your email dated July 3, 2016, inquiring about SB 2954 which has recently been signed by Governor Ige. Unfortunately, the Attorney General cannot provide legal advice to private citizens. As provided by statute:
The department shall administer and render state legal services, including furnishing of written legal opinions to the governor, legislature, and such state departments and officers as the governor may direct; represent the State in all civil actions in which the State is a party; approve as to legality and form all documents relating to the acquisition of any land or interest in lands by the State; and, unless otherwise provided by law, prosecute cases involving violations of state laws and cases involving agreements, uniform laws, or other matters which are enforceable in the courts of the State. The attorney general shall be charged with such other duties and have such authority as heretofore provided by common law or statute. Section 26-7, Hawaii Revised Statutes.
I regret that we are unable to help you.
Kevin K. Takata
Supervising Deputy Attorney General
Criminal Justice Division
333 Queen Street, Suite 200
Honolulu, Hawaii 96813
(808)586-1075
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So, they are basically telling us:
1. The legislature makes the laws after the AG offers an opinion on the constitutionality and ability to withstand legal scrutiny.
2. If we break that law, the AG and prosecutor will prefer charges based upon laws they helped write and/or reviewed.
3. In order to know how to interpret the laws before or after we break them, we have to hire a professional lawyer -- a lawyer who was never included in the AG's review -- and they have to try to figure out what's legal and what can land us in jail.
4. Whether we obtain outside legal counsel or not, there is no guarantee a lawyer or "layman" could properly interpret the law based on hypotheticals. It takes a court to rule on cases which creates the body of knowledge on how the law is being applied.
So, we are paying tax money to the AG to help the legislature pass laws (rules) that we are all responsible for following, but can't get a correct interpretation from the AG's office because they apparently are representing the state's interests, not the interests of the people who pay them.
An analogy would be: Let's play a game. I'll make up the rules and give you a list. The only way you'll know if you understood what I wrote is after you receive a penalty or have a point subtracted as punishment. Only by making your own fouls, or learning from the fouls of other teams before you, can you figure out a strategy that avoids breaking the rules. Finally, you write me a check for making up the rules you all have to play by!
Do I have that right?
I wonder if Hawaii news now would investigate this, and why that a taxpayer funded legal office will not give legal advice, to the tax payer, on the intent of a law?
Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but we will not, under any circumstance, give you the information needed to not be ignorant...... :crazy:
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:crazy: Just follow the law, it's really easy to do guys. :crazy:
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Odd. I guess there services vary with the times. I asked them a question in the 90s and they replied pretty quick.
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Was a legal opinion provided to the legislature or governor on this bill?
If so, is it subject to the sunshine law and a matter of public record?
If not, why not? As numerous testimonies advised the legislature and governor that this bill was in violation of federal law.
A formal opinion should have been provided to somebody.
We don't need legal advice.
We just need to know the advice you gave the legislature and/or the governor.
Just spit-ballin'
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I wonder if Hawaii news now would investigate this, and why that a taxpayer funded legal office will not give legal advice, to the tax payer, on the intent of a law?
Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but we will not, under any circumstance, give you the information needed to not be ignorant...... :crazy:
One of the defenses to a crime is believing that you were acting legally based on the advice of an appropriate official. Not guaranteeing you will get off but at least if we did seek advice and the advice ended up being wrong we do have some grounds for defense.
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One of the defenses to a crime is believing that you were acting legally based on the advice of an appropriate official. Not guaranteeing you will get off but at least if we did seek advice and the advice ended up being wrong we do have some grounds for defense.
No one is "seeking advice," only an interpretation of the statute from the same agency which (1) reviewed the bill before it was law, (2) must file charges when someone has broken that law, and (3) prosecute anyone in the state who breaks that law.
Interpretations are explanations, not legal advice. I guess you missed that day in your "legal studies." :shake:
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No one is "seeking advice," only an interpretation of the statute from the same agency which (1) reviewed the bill before it was law, (2) must file charges when someone has broken that law, and (3) prosecute anyone in the state who breaks that law.
Interpretations are explanations, not legal advice. I guess you missed that day in your "legal studies." :shake:
:wtf:
Semantics. Advice, in the context of my post, is a legal interpretation.
Are you incapable of having a mature conversation? Couldn't you have replied without snide comment? :stopjack:
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:wtf:
Semantics. Advice, in the context of my post, is a legal interpretation.
Are you incapable of having a mature conversation? Couldn't you have replied without snide comment? :stopjack:
WRONG! "Context" has zero to do with it.
You really took "legal studies" classes? Really??? You might want to get a refund, or maybe audit the class to pick up what you might have missed the first time you slept through class!
This is not a matter of "semantics." That would imply the meanings are the same but the words are different.
Legal ADVICE is providing analysis and guidance based on a specific case. Legal INFORMATION or Interpretation is a GENERAL reading of the law not related to a specific instance.
As a general matter, only a lawyer may give actual legal advice, whereas any non-lawyer may recite legal information. Furthermore, it is generally illegal for a non-lawyer or unlicensed attorney to offer legal advice or otherwise represent someone other than himself or herself in a court of law.
Unlike legal information, legal advice refers to the written or oral counsel about a legal matter that would affect the rights and responsibilities of the person receiving the advice. In addition, actual legal advice requires careful analysis of the law as it applies to a person's specific situation - as opposed to speculation based on generic facts.
http://hirealawyer.findlaw.com/do-you-need-a-lawyer/what-is-legal-advice.html
If you don't like snarkiness or snide comments, then quit posting false and incorrect comments! If you spent one fraction of the time you spend writing comments simply making sure your information is accurate, coincides with other sources, and is written plainly and literately, you'd be much further ahead than you are now.
I find it fascinating the amount of time you spend defending your mistakes and bad information when you could have saved time verifying it beforehand. :wacko:
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:crazy: Just follow the law, it's really easy to do guys. :crazy:
Spoken like a true blue SUBJECT. LOL...... A citizen is NOT a subject. Js
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Spoken like a true blue SUBJECT. LOL...... A citizen is NOT a subject. Js
Unless the citizen is the subject of an investigation ... >:D
:shaka:
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WRONG! "Context" has zero to do with it.
You really took "legal studies" classes? Really??? You might want to get a refund, or maybe audit the class to pick up what you might have missed the first time you slept through class!
This is not a matter of "semantics." That would imply the meanings are the same but the words are different.
Legal ADVICE is providing analysis and guidance based on a specific case. Legal INFORMATION or Interpretation is a GENERAL reading of the law not related to a specific instance.
http://hirealawyer.findlaw.com/do-you-need-a-lawyer/what-is-legal-advice.html
If you don't like snarkiness or snide comments, then quit posting false and incorrect comments! If you spent one fraction of the time you spend writing comments simply making sure your information is accurate, coincides with other sources, and is written plainly and literately, you'd be much further ahead than you are now.
I find it fascinating the amount of time you spend defending your mistakes and bad information when you could have saved time verifying it beforehand. :wacko:
You don't care about mistakes, you just smell blood in the water. If you only cared about mistakes then you would politely show me where and how I was wrong but that's not what you did is it?
If you ask a cop if an action is illegal and the cop says no then he advised to on the law, hence advice. In this example the cop is not advising you on a specific case, but on the law itself. Yes this is also referred to as interpreting but in the end it is still advice, hence you at nitpicking semantics.
If a cop tells you speeding is against the law, the cop is advising you of the law. Calling it interpretation is fine but it is still advice.
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You don't care about mistakes, you just smell blood in the water. If you only cared about mistakes then you would politely show me where and how I was wrong but that's not what you did is it?
If you ask a cop if an action is illegal and the cop says no then he advised to on the law, hence advice. In this example the cop is not advising you on a specific case, but on the law itself. Yes this is also referred to as interpreting but in the end it is still advice, hence you at nitpicking semantics.
If a cop tells you speeding is against the law, the cop is advising you of the law. Calling it interpretation is fine but it is still advice.
LOL! Once again, hijacking the thread to defend your own bad information! Read the definitions. Even your response is wrong!
"Is speeding illegal?" "Yes, it is." <== general information.
"I was going over the speed limit on the way to the hospital ER. My friend was bleeding profusely. Is that considered mitigating circumstances?" <== calls for a conclusion given a specific situation, i.e. ADVICE
:stopjack:
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LOL! Once again, hijacking the thread to defend your own bad information! Read the definitions. Even your response is wrong!
"Is speeding illegal?" "Yes, it is." <== general information.
"I was going over the speed limit on the way to the hospital ER. My friend was bleeding profusely. Is that considered mitigating circumstances?" <== calls for a conclusion given a specific situation, i.e. ADVICE
:stopjack:
And your pattern repeats. You derail the thread and then blame it on me. Let me guess, next you are going to complain that I responded after you used the back to topic emoticon? You don't care about staying on topic because if you did you wouldn't have bothered to go down this path in the first place. You only use that emoticon for your flame war purposes. I reply to you because I refuse to be bullied by you and your insults you try to seal in with an emoticon.
Saying that speeding is illegal is advising someone of the law no matter how you want to twist it. My statement remains accurate, you have proven nothing by playing with semantics.
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And your pattern repeats. You derail the thread and then blame it on me. Let me guess, next you are going to complain that I responded after you used the back to topic emoticon? You don't care about staying on topic because if you did you wouldn't have bothered to go down this path in the first place. You only use that emoticon for your flame war purposes. I reply to you because I refuse to be bullied by you.
Saying that speeding is illegal is advising someone of the law no matter how you want to twist it. My statement remains accurate, you have proven nothing by playing with semantics.
I'm not "twisting" the meaning. You are, Mr. "I took legal classes". They should have taught you the law is very specific in the language and vocabulary used. It has a common meaning among the lawyers and judges, so they are not spending all day in case after case defining the difference between "advice" and "interpretation"!
Post sources that agree with your definition and differentiations for "legal advice". Otherwise, you're just arguing so you can keep the thread off topic.
If my pattern repeats, it's because you can't hold a discussion up on your own. Learn to have an intelligent discussion using real facts and experience, then maybe the pattern will be broken!
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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I'm not "twisting" the meaning. You are, Mr. "I took legal classes". They should have taught you the law is very specific in the language and vocabulary used. It has a common meaning among the lawyers and judges, so they are not spending all day in case after case defining the difference between "advice" and "interpretation"!
Post sources that agree with your definition and differentiations for "legal advice". Otherwise, you're just arguing so you can keep the thread off topic.
If my pattern repeats, it's because you can't hold a discussion up on your own. Learn to have an intelligent discussion using real facts and experience, then maybe the pattern will be broken!
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
You are using one definition of the word advice while I am using a different definition of the word. You however are claiming yours is the only accurate one which is simply not true. I didn't think it would come to this but we can start with the dictionary since you need to define fairly basic English words.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/advice?s=t
1.an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action, conduct, etc.:
I shall act on your advice.
2. a communication, especially from a distance, containing information:
3. an official notification, especially one pertaining to a business agreement:
Obviously, given the context of my post, I was not using definition #1 but definition #2. Communicating information. You wanted to say interpret and I was cordial and agreed that interpret could also be an applicable word. Unfortunately you could not return the gesture and had to pretend your definition was the only in existence.
I even researched multiple law dictionaries for you and amazingly they didn't have definitions for the word "advice"
http://www.legal-dictionary.org/ld.asp?q=advice
http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?typed=advice&type=1
So if it wasn't obvious to you in the beginning what I was getting at in my statement then it sure as heck is now. My original point remains valid even if you want to nitpick the terms I used so I see no point in continuing down this path
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You are using one definition of the word advice while I am using a different definition of the word. You however are claiming yours is the only accurate one which is simply not true. I didn't think it would come to this but we can start with the dictionary since you need to define fairly basic English words.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/advice?s=t
1.an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action, conduct, etc.:
I shall act on your advice.
2. a communication, especially from a distance, containing information:
3. an official notification, especially one pertaining to a business agreement:
Obviously, given the context of my post, I was not using definition #1 but definition #2. Communicating information. You wanted to say interpret and I was cordial and agreed that interpret could also be an applicable word. Unfortunately you could not return the gesture and had to pretend your definition was the only in existence.
I even researched multiple law dictionaries for you and amazingly they didn't have definitions for the word "advice"
http://www.legal-dictionary.org/ld.asp?q=advice
http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?typed=advice&type=1
So if it wasn't obvious to you in the beginning what I was getting at in my statement then it sure as heck is now. My original point remains valid even if you want to nitpick the terms I used.
Legal Advice is from an attorney and specific to a client's case.
Legal information/interpretation/definition is general and doesn't require legal analysis.
Why is that so difficult?
I truly wish you spent as much effort BEING right as you spend TRYING TO PROVE you are right!
Using the wrong word with an alternate meaning does not make it correct. It makes you uninformed.
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One of the defenses to a crime is believing that you were acting legally based on the advice of an appropriate official. Not guaranteeing you will get off but at least if we did seek advice and the advice ended up being wrong we do have some grounds for defense.
This is the context of what you are now arguing to defend. You said "advice" from someone can be used as a defense. According to you, you are now claiming "advice" simply means "communication" and "information".
Let's assume your alternate definition of "advice" is correct, that advice is NOT considered more than "it's against the law to speed". How can that be used as a defense? That's basic information on the law that is available to you without consulting a lawyer. If a Cop, who is not a lawyer, gives general information on the law, you can't use that as a defense. The Cop might be mistaken, might have phrased it incorrectly, or maybe he made stuff up rather than be thought ignorant of the law he's enforcing. He's also allowed to lie in the course of an investigation.
With all that on the Cop's side regarding accountability, how do you get from there to "if we did seek advice and the advice ended up being wrong we do have some grounds for defense"?
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The two of you arguing back and forth is basically derailing almost every post on the forum, CAN YOU PLEASE for the sake of every one else, STOP
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The two of you arguing back and forth is basically derailing almost every post on the forum, CAN YOU PLEASE for the sake of every one else, STOP
You should also PM the moderators. Apparently, there is an opinion Fish Boy can do whatever he wants without the mods interfering. I can't divulge my sources, but the evidence does seem to bear that out. Meanwhile, I've had many of my own comments purged quietly without explanation or warning.
As for my side of the arguments, all I can say is I'll try. Maybe it's the way I was taught, but I can't sit silently while someone lectures others with bad advice and information. Silence, to me, is just as bad as spreading incorrect comments myself.
But. I'll try to be more brief and limit engagements to one rebuttal, if that makes you feel better!
:shaka:
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The two of you arguing back and forth is basically derailing almost every post on the forum, CAN YOU PLEASE for the sake of every one else, STOP
...
Yeah really :thumbsup:
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The two of you arguing back and forth is basically derailing almost every post on the forum, CAN YOU PLEASE for the sake of every one else, STOP
Damn, that hurt my ears!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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You should also PM the moderators. Apparently, there is an opinion Fish Boy can do whatever he wants without the mods interfering. I can't divulge my sources, but the evidence does seem to bear that out. Meanwhile, I've had many of my own comments purged quietly without explanation or warning.
As for my side of the arguments, all I can say is I'll try. Maybe it's the way I was taught, but I can't sit silently while someone lectures others with bad advice and information. Silence, to me, is just as bad as spreading incorrect comments myself.
But. I'll try to be more brief and limit engagements to one rebuttal, if that makes you feel better!
:shaka:
Check it out. I delete both of you folks posts when they go off topic. So don't be like you are the only one being deleted.
Both you should discuss things without name calling and snide comment like adults.
I you can't agree. Say so and stop talking. Going no where and arguing does nothing but ruin valuable discussion.
That is all.
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Check it out. I delete both of you folks posts when they go off topic. So don't be like you are the only one being deleted.
Both you should discuss things without name calling and snide comment like adults.
That is all.
#micdrop
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I have a suggestion for you 2.
Flapp_Jackson please add Eyeeatingfish to your ignore list.
Eyeeatingfish please add Flapp_Jackson to your ignore list.
Thank you.
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I have a suggestion for you 2.
Flapp_Jackson please add Eyeeatingfish to your ignore list.
Eyeeatingfish please add Flapp_Jackson to your ignore list.
Thank you.
Thanks for the suggestion, but why did you not suggest to others to just ignore the two of us rather than try and censor us?
Just curious why the same won't work for everyone else...
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Thanks for the suggestion, but why did you not suggest to others to just ignore the two of us rather than try and censor us?
Just curious why the same won't work for everyone else...
Because you both make good points that others may not have considered. Personally, I like reading both of your posts when you both talk on topic.
It's just when you both jump on each other and derail the topic that things get off track. By both of you ignoring each other's posts, it would avoid such derailment.
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Thanks for the suggestion, but why did you not suggest to others to just ignore the two of us rather than try and censor us?
Just curious why the same won't work for everyone else...
Because you two endlessly bickering is bringing down the level of the entire forum and people are leaving the forum because of the behavior of a few posters
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I have a suggestion for you 2.
Flapp_Jackson please add Eyeeatingfish to your ignore list.
Eyeeatingfish please add Flapp_Jackson to your ignore list.
Thank you.
THIS
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Because you two endlessly bickering is bringing down the level of the entire forum and people are leaving the forum because of the behavior of a few posters
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(http://cdn.hypervocal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/normal_105here_for_the_gang_bang.jpg)
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Check it out. I delete both of you folks posts when they go off topic. So don't be like you are the only one being deleted.
Both you should discuss things without name calling and snide comment like adults.
I you can't agree. Say so and stop talking. Going no where and arguing does nothing but ruin valuable discussion.
That is all.
I apologize for my portion of this problem. And I do so without caveats, comebacks, or insults.
I will refrain from engaging in discussions with him that do not remain civil.
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I apologize for my portion of this problem. And I do so without caveats, comebacks, or insults.
I will refrain from engaging in discussions with him that do not remain civil.
Thank you for taking the high road.