2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: ren on June 23, 2016, 03:23:24 PM
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http://www.kitv.com/story/32296561/hawaii-is-1st-us-state-to-enroll-gun-owners-in-federal-database (http://www.kitv.com/story/32296561/hawaii-is-1st-us-state-to-enroll-gun-owners-in-federal-database)
so who do I sign up with the lawsuit?! :grrr:
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Frick
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Wolfwood !!!!!!
( the bat signal just went up )
Do we have to be entered into the system to have standing in the suit ?
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There must be some legal action taken. This is a threat to ownership nationally if other states sign on. Registering is one thing but getting thrown in a biometric database full of criminals is a great way to score a lot of false positives. This is harassment.
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I think anyone who owned a firearm and registered whether they currently live here can be a plaintiff?
Once registered, HPD maintains that record indefinitely.
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Does this affect old and new registrations? Or just those that pay the fee?
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Does this affect old and new registrations? Or just those that pay the fee?
Goes into effect 7/1....and the fee hasn't been revealed...yet. And, what do you want to bet HPD won't accept anything but cash and exact change?
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The article says it is for the children.
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Does this affect old and new registrations? Or just those that pay the fee?
According to the KHON story, it's all applications and registrations on file.
There's also language about working with an international criminal justice organization. So I suppose the UN will have everyone's data as well. Perhaps that was really the intent of the law ?
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Next time I buy a gun, if I have to consent to being in RAP-BACK and allow some international agency access to my info, I may have to cancel that purchase.
Treating gun owners like Sexual Predators is inexcusable!
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co worker said, "Your fault for buying a gun!"
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According to the KHON story, it's all applications and registrations on file.
There's also language about working with an international criminal justice organization. So I suppose the UN will have everyone's data as well. Perhaps that was really the intent of the law ?
I don't see it for existing owners.just new applicants.
SB 2954
The purpose of this Act is to authorize county police departments in Hawaii to enroll firearms applicants and individuals who are registering their firearms into the rap back system.
The issuing authority shall perform an inquiry on an applicant [who is a citizen of the United States by using the National Instant Criminal Background Check System] by using the International Justice and Public Safety Network, including the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement query, the National Crime Information Center, and the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, pursuant to section 846-2.7 before any determination to issue a permit or to deny an application is made.
"(i) No fee shall be charged for permits, or applications for permits, under this section, except for a single fee chargeable by and payable to the issuing county, for individuals applying for their first permit, in an amount equal to the fee [actually] charged by the [Federal Bureau of Investigation to the issuing police department for a fingerprint check in connection with that application or permit.] Hawaii criminal justice data center pursuant to section 846-2.7. In the case of a joint application, the fee provided for in this section may be charged to each person to whom no previous permit has been issued."
SECTION 5. Statutory material to be repealed is bracketed and stricken. New statutory material is underscored.
SECTION 6. This Act does not affect rights and duties that matured, penalties that were incurred, and proceedings that were begun before its effective date.
SECTION 7. This Act shall take effect upon its approval.
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2016/bills/SB2954_HD1_.HTM
From article:
Hawaii is the first state in the U.S. to authorize county police departments to enroll firearms applicants and individuals registering their firearms in a criminal record monitoring service, according to Gov. David Ige.
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I still want to be part of the lawsuit.
I just don't want to be in Rap Back.
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What does new applicant mean?
Buying anything after 7/1?
What if you purchase a handgun tomorrow and register after the 2 week waiting period?
Long guns before or after 7/1?
If you already have registered stuff on file and adding more, will you be on this list?
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Welp lines at HPD going to be 10 hours long. Until 7/1 then empty.
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Unfortunately the waiting period on handguns seems to prevent last minute shopping. Shouldn't there have been more of a buffer period before the bill goes into effect? Someone who has already purchased stuff and is waiting now has no choice but to enter into this system.
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What does new applicant mean?
Buying anything after 7/1?
What if you purchase a handgun tomorrow and register after the 2 week waiting period?
Long guns before or after 7/1?
If you already have registered stuff on file and adding more, will you be on this list?
The statute actually doesn't say "new applicant", it says "applicants". I could see that being interpreted as everyone who has ever applied. And from the standpoint of a Dim, it probably doesn't make sense to include only new applicants.
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Ige just opened up a can of worms that he and the state will not be able to handle. HI will deserve all the lawsuits it loses. With the money it pays out, might have to stop the rail at Aiea.
No American has to obey any UN official, directive or law.
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Very :grrr:
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Sen Espero must be very proud of himself. Thank you for trashing our rights Wil!
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So what can we do now?
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Thank you for trashing our rights Wil!
Like all democrats, they do not give a damn what we firearm owners think, as long as they have control over us.
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While Hawaii is far and away the leader in CCW licenses (zero in the state), and full registration of all firearms (okay, except black powder, etc.), no doubt Espero and his ilk intend to have us catching up with California, NY, NJ, Connecticut, Maryland, etc. by introducing "assault weapon" bans, "high capacity" (aka "standard capacity") magazine bans, etc. They haven't even begun the real party yet. Aloha!
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So are we gonna be treated like State of Hawaii Attorney Generals Sex Offender list? Register and take a new photo every 6 months @ $14.75 cash only. The Firearms registry is in the same room.
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Ige just opened up a can of worms that he and the state will not be able to handle. HI will deserve all the lawsuits it loses. With the money it pays out, might have to stop the rail at Aiea.
No American has to obey any UN official, directive or law.
Hey guy, you live in Hawaii.
You are pretty stupid if you think
cops, the government, or the courts will
respect your rights.
This is an open public site, my advice is
to legally protect yourself, because the government
here will kill you.
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I'll take a look guys but I do have Baker and Young up on appeal. I am finishing up a supplemental brief for Young in light of Peruta.
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If you have the financial means, perhaps it may be time to acquire an address in a state that gives a rip about your rights.
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Hey guy, you live in Hawaii.
You are pretty stupid if you think
cops, the government, or the courts will
respect your rights.
This is an open public site, my advice is
to legally protect yourself, because the government
here will kill you.
Since you talk like one smaht buggah, what's your advice to legally protect yourself? Sure this is a public site, for responsible gunowners.
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I'll take a look guys but I do have Baker and Young up on appeal. I am finishing up a supplemental brief for Young in light of Peruta.
Thanks for all your hard work. I'm hoping with this loss and more bills on the way for next year that the quiet owners will feel more like sticking their necks out out and supporting your efforts.
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.
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How can I (we) help?
2nd
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How can I (we) help?
If he is willing to take it up its going to take $$$$$ this could be a lengthy and expensive fight, Im hoping the NRA get on this but if they dont its going to be on the gun owners of Hawaii.
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Isn't that in part what HDF and HRA is for ?
I'm in though if I'm a party with standing.
Thanks for the reply Wolfwood !
(Answered the bat call)
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INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE AND PUBLIC SAFETY NETWORK (NLETS)
Nlets, is a private not for profit corporation owned by the States that was created over 45 years ago by the 50 state law enforcement agencies. The user population is made up of all of the United States and its territories, all Federal agencies with a justice component, selected international agencies, and a variety of strategic partners that serve the law enforcement community-cooperatively exchanging data.
The mission of Nlets is to provide, within a secure environment, international justice telecommunications capability and information services that will benefit to the highest degree, the safety, security, and preservation of human life and the protection of property. Nlets will assist those national and international government agencies and other organizations with similar missions that enforce or aid in enforcing local, state or international laws or ordinances.
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My thing is this. This RAPBACK system requires a fee. If they want to enter every person since registration started then every person in that registration database would be charged this fee.
I am not paying it. I am done with this state. So if they did enter everyone then is the state paying for it all?
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Straight from the bill.
"The issuing authority shall perform an inquiry on an applicant by using the International Justice and Public Safety Network, including the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement query, the National Crime Information Center, and the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, pursuant to section 846-2.7 before any determination to issue a permit or to deny an application is made."
(I removed the stricken parts)
This would lead me to believe all new applicants.
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The bill has no funding.
$13 minimum to enroll a person in rap back.
Just guessing if there's 100,000 registered gun owners that would be $1.3 million to put us all in the system (not counting man hours)
I don't think they'll do it. Just my uneducated opinion though.
New applicants and possibly registrants may see a fee increase though to enter themselves into the system.
Keep an eye after July 1rst.
Hence my standing question.
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This only hurt LGS here. This will have no effect on the criminals whatsoever. Dumbest thing I have seen on this island yet.
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Have contacted wolfwood regarding being a/the plaintiff.
This cannot be allowed to pass unchallenged.
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Even though I do not live permanently or vote here I will monetarily help with a donation. I agree this cannot go unchallenged.
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Isn't that in part what HDF and HRA is for ?
I'm in though if I'm a party with standing.
Thanks for the reply Wolfwood !
(Answered the bat call)
I don't think HRA doesn't have the resources...remember they get $20 in membership fees a year. I don't know what their membership is...maybe 10,000? That would be $200,000 a year. Appeals cost hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars depending how far up it goes.
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Yeah. But you can be awarded fees and costs if you prevail.
(At each level if I'm not mistaken)
And hence my in part part of the statement.
Don't expect them to fully fund it.
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My thing is this. This RAPBACK system requires a fee. If they want to enter every person since registration started then every person in that registration database would be charged this fee.
I am not paying it. I am done with this state. So if they did enter everyone then is the state paying for it all?
I don't think the FBI charges law enforcement agencies for the service. Maybe some other private organizations that might be using it.
And the State registration database has already been computerized. All they have to do is send the computer files to the FBI.
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So is this for all new registration or does this mean that all existing firearm holders will need to be placed on this list?
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I don't think the FBI charges law enforcement agencies for the service. Maybe some other private organizations that might be using it.
And the State registration database has already been computerized. All they have to do is send the computer files to the FBI.
If you read the first post the database is a private non profit company.
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So is this for all new registration or does this mean that all existing firearm holders will need to be placed on this list?
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to legalese... NIcked this from the actual document:
2. By amending subsection (i) to read:
"(i) No fee shall be charged for permits, or applications for permits, under this section, except for a single fee chargeable by and payable to the issuing county, for individuals applying for their first permit, in an amount equal to the fee [actually] charged by the [Federal Bureau of Investigation to the issuing police department for a fingerprint check in connection with that application or permit.] Hawaii criminal justice data center pursuant to section 846-2.7. In the case of a joint application, the fee provided for in this section may be charged to each person to whom no previous permit has been issued."
I've really gotta get smarter on this crap...
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I see the various "commonsense gun safety regulation" organizations are heralding the Hawaii law-abiding firearm owner mandated RapBack enrollment law as "groundbreaking" and a "role model" for other states. At least we're first in something. Not sure that being Number One in totalitarian surveillance-state civil-rights-suppression is a plus in my book. Once we're all covered (and "out of the way"?) they will come for the people advocating all this stuff. And they'll be "surprised" and say crap like "We never thought this could happen here". Yeah. Right. :crazy:
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I'm really waiting to see what the experts have to say about this (stuff we don't already know is BS)...
Couple of things I noticed are: No mention of/or the term "Retroactive" used as far as I can see; and out of state reg appears same-same (maybe I missed details on that one).
My biggest concern is this; what happens when there's a data breach and our once secure info becomes a road map to our door step for those seeking access to firearms.
Ready to fight this, where do we start...?
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Did anyone contact the NRA seeking help already?
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last time I was in line at HPD, I overheard some people saying that later this year there will be a fee to register firearms
maybe this is what they were talking about.
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In the criminal data base w/o committing a crime ?
Sounds like defamation of character to me. :grrr:
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with all this crap we should have gun brokers like real estate brokers....escrow, etc.
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The Firearms Owners Protection Act forbids any national registry:
so....illegal right?
The Act also forbade the U.S. Government agency from keeping a registry directly linking non-National Firearms Act firearms to their owners, the specific language of this law (Federal Law 18 U.S.C. 926 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926) being:
No such rule or regulation prescribed [by the Attorney General] after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.
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Rick and I are thinking about it.
It appears to me that federal law preempts this new law
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The article said the State Attorney General and other brilliant minds of the state of Hawaii's legal department carefully reviewed this bill to make sure it was legal. I am not paying a retroactive fee if there is one. I will not buy another gun while this law is in existence. I will have to try and get one of my friends to sell me an legally unregistered firearm purchased before 1994. Time to start buying 80% receivers and jigs and the components to complete an AR15 before the state starts placing restrictions on those.
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I'm really waiting to see what the experts have to say about this (stuff we don't already know is BS)...
Couple of things I noticed are: No mention of/or the term "Retroactive" used as far as I can see; and out of state reg appears same-same (maybe I missed details on that one).
My biggest concern is this; what happens when there's a data breach and our once secure info becomes a road map to our door step for those seeking access to firearms.
Ready to fight this, where do we start...?
That would be my biggest concern about the new law as well. The more the data gets passed around to who knows who, the more likely a hacker will be able to steal it. I could even see all of the data being made public.
Fox News article today: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/06/24/hawaii-becomes-first-state-to-put-gun-owners-in-federal-database.html
Governor's press release: http://governor.hawaii.gov/newsroom/governors-office-news-release-hawaii-becomes-first-state-in-nation-to-enroll-firearms-owners-in-centralized-information-system/
With the other 2 bills being signed into law as well, I wonder how many Hawaii residents have now been disqualified ?
Too bad we don't have a press that will actually ask the relevant questions.
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http://gawker.com/5974190/here-is-a-list-of-all-the-assholes-who-own-guns-in-new-york-city (http://gawker.com/5974190/here-is-a-list-of-all-the-assholes-who-own-guns-in-new-york-city)
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The article said the State Attorney General and other brilliant minds of the state of Hawaii's legal department carefully reviewed this bill to make sure it was legal. I am not paying a retroactive fee if there is one. I will not buy another gun while this law is in existence. I will have to try and get one of my friends to sell me an legally unregistered firearm purchased before 1994. Time to start buying 80% receivers and jigs and the components to complete an AR15 before the state starts placing restrictions on those.
Buying a pre 1994 gun and not registering it would still be illegal.
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How is it legal for the State of Hawaii to keep a firearm database violating FOPA.
The Act also forbade the U.S. Government agency from keeping a registry directly linking non-National Firearms Act firearms to tyheir owners, the specific language of this law (Federal Law 18 U.S.C. 926 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926) being:
No such rule or regulation prescribed [by the Attorney General] after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.
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From a purely analytical perspective, the RAP-BACK system requires NOTIFICATION at the time a person applies for something informing the applicant they will be added into the system for monitoring.
Anyone who registered firearms before HPD starts notifying new applicants can't be retroactively added to RAP-BACK.
So, without some round-about way of providing notification of RAP-BACK enrollment to existing registrants, I can't see how they could add all those people to RAP-BACK legally.
(http://i.imgur.com/kumaFh0.png)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwiAudbItsHNAhVP5GMKHbhiB2EQFggqMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aci-na.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fcredentialing_-_chasity_anderson.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGTlxizKkVb8O33UEZt2AKrt5KwDw&bvm=bv.125596728,d.cGc&cad=rja
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Buying a pre 1994 gun and not registering it would still be illegal.
How would they know I did not already own it prior to 1994 if if was never registered ?
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How would they know I did not already own it prior to 1994 if if was never registered ?
One way would be if you were too young to legally own a pistol prior to 1994.
1994 - 21 = 1973. If you were born in 73 or later, you'd have broken a different gun law! :)
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http://gawker.com/5974190/here-is-a-list-of-all-the-assholes-who-own-guns-in-new-york-city (http://gawker.com/5974190/here-is-a-list-of-all-the-assholes-who-own-guns-in-new-york-city)
I thought NY City was worse than Hawaii, but it is not. They have issued thousands of carry permits. I what I don't know is how many on that list was rich enough to buy a permit.
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Rick and I are thinking about it.
It appears to me that federal law preempts this new law
Thanks Wolfwood.
Let us know if there is anything we can do to convince you guys to take this on.
This is a big one.
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One way would be if you were too young to legally own a pistol prior to 1994.
1994 - 21 = 1973. If you were born in 73 or later, you'd have broken a different gun law! :)
I got my first handgun permit from HPD in 1971. Handguns of course always had to be registered, so I am talking about long guns, which I think someone 18'years old can legally buy. Not 100% sure since I haven't had to worry about being of legal age for the past 45 years.
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How is it legal for the State of Hawaii to keep a firearm database violating FOPA.
That's a rhetorical question, right?
Or one you forget to include "/sarc" after?
You keep using that word "legal". I do not think it means what you think it means.
How is it legal for the State of Hawaii to not allow one single person in the entire state to legally bear arms outside their residence or place of work?
:crazy:
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That's a rhetorical question, right?
Or one you forget to include "/sarc" after?
You keep using that word "legal". I do not think it means what you think it means.
How is it legal for the State of Hawaii to not allow one single person in the entire state to legally bear arms outside their residence or place of work?
:crazy:
Sorry. I couldn't resist. ;D
(http://www.highheatstats.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/im.jpg)
Anyways, :stopjack:
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One way would be if you were too young to legally own a pistol prior to 1994.
1994 - 21 = 1973. If you were born in 73 or later, you'd have broken a different gun law! :)
Not true I had my first handgun at 19, private sales were not restricted to persons under 21.
Only applied to dealer sales.
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Not true I had my first handgun at 19, private sales were not restricted to persons under 21.
Only applied to dealer sales.
Okay, we add a few years. What was the age limit for handguns before 1994? 18? 16?
For long guns?
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Okay, we add a few years. What was the age limit for handguns before 1994? 18? 16?
For long guns?
21 for handguns from dealers.
everything else was 18 for long guns and private sales of .handguns
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What does a person need to have standing in a case against the State in this matter?
Would we have to have been entered into the Rap Back system?
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Thanks Wolfwood.
Let us know if there is anything we can do to convince you guys to take this on.
This is a big one.
Honestly its largely a matter of money. I think I can get a preemption lawsuit together but this is a case that will definitely go to the court of appeals. That's a couple years at least working on a case without pay if we decide to take it.
If you guys got a fund raiser that would be a lot easier for us to put aside our standard practice to work on another appeal.
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Not true I had my first handgun at 19, private sales were not restricted to persons under 21.
Only applied to dealer sales.
From my own perspective, I don't think any gun will be looked at for pre-1994 legal ownership unless the cops have a reason to research the specific serial numbers, like if you are being investigated for gun related crimes.
As long as you weren't born in 1986 or later and there's no suspicion the gun was stolen or transferred illegally, I can't see them expending resources over a legally unregistered firearm.
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What does a person need to have standing in a case against the State in this matter?
Would we have to have been entered into the Rap Back system?
If you are a gun owner a preenforcement challenge could be filed before your name is actually put into the system.
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fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/fingerprints_biometrics/ngi
Rap Back
The Rap Back service allows authorized agencies to receive notification of activity on individuals who hold positions of trust (e.g. school teachers, daycare workers) or who are under criminal justice supervision or investigation, thus eliminating the need for repeated background checks on a person from the same applicant agency.
AS PER NGI Rap Back Service
The NGI Rap Back Service Provides benefit in two domains:
Non-criminal justice applicants, employees,
volunteers, and licensees;
Individuals under the supervision or investigation of criminal justice agencies
http://www.aci-na.org/sites/default/files/credentialing_-_chasity_anderson.pdf
I AM NONE OF THE ABOVE ( unless I am a "Non-criminal licensees, in which case I still should not be on this list
Customer Benefits
Offers notification of future events that may affect suitability of persons serving in positions of trust.
Provides timely notification of arrests of individuals placed on probation or parole.
Task of performing subsequent fitness determination through taking fingerprints, fees,
AGAIN, NONE OF THE ABOVE PERTAINS TO ME
"The FBI has run criminal background checks for state and local agencies, as well as employers, for some time now. But with NGI, the agency has a new plan: the "rap back" scheme. It will be voluntary — but the decision to participate will reside with the employer, not the employee. In other words, if your boss wants to sign up, tough luck.
Here's how it will work: the boss at a company or organization signs an agreement with the FBI to implement the "rap back" program. You'd like to work there, and submit to a background check to do so. Your fingerprints are taken before you get your job, a routine part of the criminal background check, your almost-boss tells you. The fingerprints are then sent to the FBI, whereupon the agency makes a determination about your criminal history, and informs your almost-boss about whether or not you are likely to be a good hire.
That was all old news. Here's the kicker: under the new plan, the FBI will retain your fingerprints, even if you've never committed a crime, so that if you are arrested or get into any trouble, the agency can inform your boss of your arrest. Behind your back."
CLEAR VIOLATIONS OF PRIVACY
Once NGI is fully deployed and once each of its approximately 100 million records also includes photographs, it will become trivially easy to find and track Americans.
FULL RAP BACK DOCS
https://epic.org/privacy/fbi/Rap-Back-FOIA-Docs-1st-Prod.pdf
:grrr: :grrr: :wtf: :grrr: :grrr:
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If you are a gun owner a preenforcement challenge could be filed before your name is actually put into the system.
Can you give a ball park figure or good starting point for funds required ?
First for the preenforcement challenge and then for the whole salami ?
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21 for handguns from dealers.
everything else was 18 for long guns and private sales of .handguns
Ah, the good old days. ;)
While we're reminiscing, what were the laws pertaining to open and concealed carry in public and was anyone "legally" allowed to do so? Or has this always been a fascist dictatorship? (I intended that as a rhetorical question, but hope to be pleasantly surprised by being notified that the near-total domination of all state offices by Democrats did not always mean people here have been disarmed outside their homes. Too much to expect?)
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Can you give a ball park figure or good starting point for funds required ?
First for the preenforcement challenge and then for the whole salami ?
Not online. I've already been contacted by one member of the forum. I'd be happy to discuss this over the phone with you.
It would just be one lawsuit. Preenforcement just means you are filing before the law goes into effect.
When does this law actually go into effect?
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.
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When does this law actually go into effect?
July 1, 2016. You've got a week. Good Luck! :shaka:
Edit:
42) SECTION 6. This Act does not affect rights and duties that matured, penalties that were incurred, and proceedings that were begun before its effective date.
1. I suppose that might mean that if you started the handgun permit to acquire process prior to the July 1 date that it wouldn'e effect you, but I wouldn't bet on the government to "interpret" the law that way.
2. There is no date of implementation stated in the bill itself, as least in the version I saw online.
Edit 2: the official hawaii state legislature page for SB2954 leads to error pages when any of the three .pdf version of the bill are clicked on. Supposedly all passed bills include a date of effectiveness. I wrote the webmaster.
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Not online. I've already been contacted by one member of the forum. I'd be happy to discuss this over the phone with you.
It would just be one lawsuit. Preenforcement just means you are filing before the law goes into effect.
When does this law actually go into effect?
7/1/16 is correct. Page 17 Line 9
What is your interpretation of the new law with regards to who will actually go into the Rap Back database. Is it just new applicants, or is it everyone who has ever applied ? If it is everyone who has ever applied, wouldn't that be an ex post facto law ?
Same question for the new harassment and hospitalization laws. Will prior harassment convictions result in disqualification under the new law ?
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Sounds like it only applies to future purchases.
I haven't looked at the harassment law. I'll take a look. If I win at the Ninth in Fisher v Kealoha then that will take care of that law to.
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Sounds like it only applies to future purchases.
I haven't looked at the harassment law. I'll take a look. If I win at the Ninth in Fisher v Kealoha then that will take care of that law to.
Thanks. Here are links to the other bills Ige signed.
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2016/bills/HB625_SD1_.HTM
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2016/bills/HB2632_CD1_.HTM
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Thanks. Here are links to the other bills Ige signed.
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2016/bills/HB625_SD1_.HTM
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2016/bills/HB2632_CD1_.HTM
Per the bill it does not affect conviction that already happened.
This Act does not affect rights and duties that matured, penalties that were incurred, and proceedings that were begun before its effective date.
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Just talked to the governors office. It took them a while but they confirmed that the bill took effect upon signing, so it's been in effect since yesterday afternoon. If they interpret it to mean all existing registrants, then we're (possibly) all already in. Good luck getting out.
From the bill itself (the link to the bills on the legislature website now work again):
SECTION 7. This Act shall take effect upon its approval.
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I guess that means no new gun purchases for me until this law gets revoked. I was hoping to buy a Springfield XD later this year.
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Called the HPD Firearms Division and when I stated 'Im calling regarding this Rap Back requirement and those with firearms already registered" and the woman who answered the phone quickly cut me off saying "we know nothing until the AG signs it."
Uh. WHAT?
I might have mis-understood what she said, but she hung up so quickly that there was no chance to even ask what she meant by that.
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Called the HPD Firearms Division and when I stated 'Im calling regarding this Rap Back requirement and those with firearms already registered" and the woman who answered the phone quickly cut me off saying "we know nothing until the AG signs it."
Uh. WHAT?
I might have mis-understood what she said, but she hung up so quickly that there was no chance to even ask what she meant by that.
They need a To: HPD From:AG memo
No email. Has to be typed perfect first time GO on a typewriter.
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Called the HPD Firearms Division and when I stated 'Im calling regarding this Rap Back requirement and those with firearms already registered" and the woman who answered the phone quickly cut me off saying "we know nothing until the AG signs it."
Uh. WHAT?
I might have mis-understood what she said, but she hung up so quickly that there was no chance to even ask what she meant by that.
Come on! They can't be bothered by you pestering them to tell you what laws they are applying to you! Just abide by the law and keep your mouth shut! By the way, should you violate the law "ignorance of the law is no excuse". Just sayin'...
Did you call the AG office and ask them? I suspect there's a "Who's on first" routine in the works here...
Edit: Just called the AG office and the person I spoke to doesn't know anything but will have someone call me back...
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They need a To: HPD From:AG memo
So it looks like there may still be a window for firearms registration before being put into this rap-back system, assuming this system is for new applicants/registrations only? Anyone know how long these "To: HPD From:AG memos" take to happen?
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So it looks like there may still be a window for firearms registration before being put into this rap-back system, assuming this system is for new applicants/registrations only? Anyone know how long these "To: HPD From:AG memos" take to happen?
I suspect they would still report any applications/registrations that were made after 7/1/16. Even if they don't have their stuff in order my then.
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Just read in an email from NRA - ILA that the bill went into effect immediately upon his signing. That is some serious bullshit!! Does anyone know what time he signed the bill? I registered a shotgun yesterday around 1 and they never said anything about being entered into rap back or collect any money. :wtf:
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Just submitted a permit to acquire about an hour ago... same routine thus far.
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:popcorn:
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Honestly its largely a matter of money. I think I can get a preemption lawsuit together but this is a case that will definitely go to the court of appeals. That's a couple years at least working on a case without pay if we decide to take it.
If you guys got a fund raiser that would be a lot easier for us to put aside our standard practice to work on another appeal.
Anybody know how to start up a "Go Fund Me" or similar site ? ???
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Just read in an email from NRA - ILA that the bill went into effect immediately upon his signing. That is some serious bullshit!! Does anyone know what time he signed the bill? I registered a shotgun yesterday around 1 and they never said anything about being entered into rap back or collect any money. :wtf:
(http://i.imgur.com/fk5mfRe.jpg)
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/cc/library/privacy-act-statement-1
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According to the Supreme Court this is an Unconstitutional action. It is unconstitutional to Register (record in a government database) the exercising of a right (Thomas v Collins 1945, Lamont v Postmaster General 1965, Haynes v US 1968).
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According to the Supreme Court this is an Unconstitutional action. It is unconstitutional to Register (record in a government database) the exercising of a right (Thomas v Collins 1945, Lamont v Postmaster General 1965, Haynes v US 1968).
but the Governor said he reviewed it with his legal team....
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but the Governor said he reviewed it with his legal team....
That's the same legal team that filed the amicus brief for the state of Hawaii in the Peruta case in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals which claimed (correctly) that Heller said bearing arms may be regulated in "sensitive places" (such as schools and government buildings), and that (not so correctly in my view) EVERYWHERE outside the home or workplace that is open to the public (i.e. everywhere except private property) is a sensitive place, and therefore the public may lawfully be banned from bearing arms in those locations. Not that it really matters since not one single person in the whole state has a CCW license, but they were just sayin', "just in case"... were someone by some miracle to get a CCW license they can't use it in public. Legal eagles at work.
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Since you talk like one smaht buggah, what's your advice to legally protect yourself? Sure this is a public site, for responsible gunowners.
I like your posts.
I'm a responsible gun owner like all others on this site.
I won't advocate anything that is illegal.
But I will chaffe at the being an idiot that follows the rules
and I despise the Democrats in this state.
My legal means of killing the government is to keep cop pay
as low as possible, so none of them want to work here,
push for Oahu to waste all it's tax dollars on useless rail systems,
buy alternative energy systems that don't work, but are Green and
kill the tourist industry.
I'll be happy when all "Hawaiians" live in Clark county NV.
I take your tongue in cheek remark for what it says.
I'm your brother, but I don't think we are friends, yet.
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I like your posts.
I'm a responsible gun owner like all others on this site.
I won't advocate anything that is illegal.
But I will chaffe at the being an idiot that follows the rules
and I despise the Democrats in this state.
My legal means of killing the government is to keep cop pay
as low as possible, so none of them want to work here,
push for Oahu to waste all it's tax dollars on useless rail systems,
buy alternative energy systems that don't work, but are Green and
kill the tourist industry.
I'll be happy when all "Hawaiians" live in Clark county NV.
I take your tongue in cheek remark for what it says.
I'm your brother, but I don't think we are friends, yet.
Good to know we are all responsible gunowners.
I will be at the state capitol rm.229 Monday at 6:30 PM for Willy's meeting about guns. Can meet up there and also meet other members.
You will probably call me unko instead of brother when you meet me.
All's good FBI. :shaka:
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Even though things don't look good now, I'm reminded that this is HI. Remember the EX-Hawaii Health Connector and how successful it WAS? Or how well rail is being managed?
Get the feeling that the state and C&C will point fingers at each other thinking the other guy will handle. Sometimes in the darkness gotta find some light.
Today made a donation to the strongest 2A supporter in the mayor's race.
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but the Governor said he reviewed it with his legal team....
That's the same legal team that told them
It was ok to make non citizens provide there own background check and it was ok to seize firearms that they already owned.
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I'm on my phone and it's. 47 page document
But that being said I don't think they can use ran back the way they want to, if I'm reading this right they can only subscribe people with convictions or under investigation
Criminal Justice Agencies may only subscribe to persons under statutory or court ordered supervision or under authorized law enforcement investigations.
Criminal justice agencies are already trained on the controls in place regarding the appropriate use of CHRI obtained from their state criminal history repositories or from the CJIS criminal history files. The NGI Rap Back Service does not change any controls or any rules for the use of CHRI. As such, the criminal justice agencies are responsible for only using Rap Back to access NGI CHRI in situations under which they would be able to access it by other authorized means. That is, criminal justice agencies cannot set an NGI Rap Back subscription on an individual if they would not be authorized under current policy to run the on-line Interstate Identification Index (III) criminal history query transactions (QH/QR) on the person at present and for the anticipated duration of the supervision or investigation.
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I'm on my phone and it's. 47 page document
But that being said I don't think they can use ran back the way they want to, if I'm reading this right they can only subscribe people with convictions or under investigation.
I wouldn't hold my breath. You and I have experienced first hand the powers that be doing whatever they want to do.
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I'm on my phone and it's. 47 page document
But that being said I don't think they can use ran back the way they want to, if I'm reading this right they can only subscribe people with convictions or under investigation
Criminal Justice Agencies may only subscribe to persons under statutory or court ordered supervision or under authorized law enforcement investigations.
Criminal justice agencies are already trained on the controls in place regarding the appropriate use of CHRI obtained from their state criminal history repositories or from the CJIS criminal history files. The NGI Rap Back Service does not change any controls or any rules for the use of CHRI. As such, the criminal justice agencies are responsible for only using Rap Back to access NGI CHRI in situations under which they would be able to access it by other authorized means. That is, criminal justice agencies cannot set an NGI Rap Back subscription on an individual if they would not be authorized under current policy to run the on-line Interstate Identification Index (III) criminal history query transactions (QH/QR) on the person at present and for the anticipated duration of the supervision or investigation.
Here's some more ...
Reason for Subscription
The Subscribing Agency may only subscribe to persons under statutory or court ordered supervision or under authorized investigations.
Investigative subscriptions can only be established in relation to law enforcement cases that have been assigned an official agency case number
and that still have a charge not beyond its statute of limitations.[/quote]
If they are lumping gun owners in with "persons under statutory [...] supervision," that's just wrong!
For subscriptions on individuals under supervision (probation, parole, sex offender, etc.)
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I left Hawaii November of last year, I registered my firearms back in 2012. Does this have any affect on me? Will there be a class action lawsuit?
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I left Hawaii November of last year, I registered my firearms back in 2012. Does this have any affect on me? Will there be a class action lawsuit?
We dont know if they are going to try and retroactively add people to the list, I would send HPD a letter stating you no longer own firearms in the state and wish to be removed from any and all registration documents
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I left Hawaii November of last year, I registered my firearms back in 2012. Does this have any affect on me? Will there be a class action lawsuit?
I purchased a firearm in Hawaii for my daughter and brought it to her in the mainland (legal exchange between immediate family members in that state). :love:
I asked HPD if they needed anything form me and was told " Once it leaves the state, we don't care". :wacko:
I did get a receipt for the firearm from her though just to cover my bases. :geekdanc:
With the recent laws signed by Iggy, I will be moving ALL but one of our firearms back to the mainland.
Will probably follow in time. :( :-\ ??? ::) ;D :D :wave: :popcorn:
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Read some of the "comments" in the mainland newspapers and blogs regarding the new laws.
A LOT of folks just canceled their vacations to Hawaii.
Nice job Iggy. :crazy:
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Read some of the "comments" in the mainland newspapers and blogs regarding the new laws.
A LOT of folks just canceled their vacations to Hawaii.
Nice job Iggy. :crazy:
I wish everyone who owns a gun did not visit antigun states like HI, CA, NJ, NY etc and took the time to email the governor why they decided to go somewhere else. I wonder how many tourist $$ that would amount to. Realistically, that will never happen.
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I purchased a firearm in Hawaii for my daughter and brought it to her in the mainland (legal exchange between immediate family members in that state). :love:
I asked HPD if they needed anything form me and was told " Once it leaves the state, we don't care". :wacko:
I did get a receipt for the firearm from her though just to cover my bases. :geekdanc:
With the recent laws signed by Iggy, I will be moving ALL but one of our firearms back to the mainland.
Will probably follow in time. :( :-\ ??? ::) ;D :D :wave: :popcorn:
Removing all but one seems redundant, that one would still be enough to put you in the data base.....
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We dont know if they are going to try and retroactively add people to the list, I would send HPD a letter stating you no longer own firearms in the state and wish to be removed from any and all registration documents
Based on the FBI's rules and the Privacy Act, they have to notify you your fingerprints will be added to the NGI/RAP-BACK database. Since they never did that for previous registrations, the only way they can "fix" that is try to invalidate the registrations so you have to come in and re-register the guns. Just sending out a form to sign won't work because they already completed the registration. Unless you no longer qualify to own guns, they can't revoke a valid registration for not signing a form that didn't exist before this month!
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The policy does not require consent simpler notification, they could mail you a letter notifying you along with a bill for the $13
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The policy does not require consent simpler notification, they could mail you a letter notifying you along with a bill for the $13
Suppose you refuse to pay?
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The policy does not require consent simpler notification, they could mail you a letter notifying you along with a bill for the $13
Hmmmm, I wonder if there's anyone out there that will write a letter stating, "I'm moving now." This $13 and stripping of my rights will cost you thousands now. Great business decision. :wave: "
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The policy does not require consent simpler notification, they could mail you a letter notifying you along with a bill for the $13
Well, the Privacy Act of 1974 (2015 edition) calls that authorized disclosure. In simple terms, the State of Hawaii cannot disclose personal information to the FBI's RAP-BACK system before notifying the owner of the data (you). That affords you the opportunity to decide whether you want to provide that information on the application. While it may result in delay or denial of the application, they can't force you to authorize release to outside parties.
Consent does not have to be explicitly given through a separate signature or initialed box. It can be added to the instructions of the application: "By providing this information, you consent to having your fingerprints entered into the FBI NGI RAP-BACK system for monitoring by HPD." or something similar.
Since that horse already left the barn, they can not go back in time and force you to participate under threat of revoking an existing registration.
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And you guys are surprise that the government pull a fast one on all of us, trust me some of these bills theirs more gun afirmitive action all hidden in bills just that politicians know how to hide it under people's eyes, sneaky politicians, welcome to the Game of Arms, politicians using big words to hide their agenda under certain bills and they wash it with other bills so no one notice, it goes on in congress it goes on every where, while the Florida shootings was going on with all the commotions, politicians pull one fast one on everyone in Hawaii, it troubles me that this happen but we live in a democratic state, and we have to take it, if this was a republic control state this stuff would not fly, politicians would shoot down these bills before it get to the floor.
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Based on the FBI's rules and the Privacy Act, they have to notify you your fingerprints will be added to the NGI/RAP-BACK database. Since they never did that for previous registrations, the only way they can "fix" that is try to invalidate the registrations so you have to come in and re-register the guns. Just sending out a form to sign won't work because they already completed the registration. Unless you no longer qualify to own guns, they can't revoke a valid registration for not signing a form that didn't exist before this month!
How do you know so much about the privacy act?
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Well, the Privacy Act of 1974 (2015 edition) calls that authorized disclosure. In simple terms, the State of Hawaii cannot disclose personal information to the FBI's RAP-BACK system before notifying the owner of the data (you). That affords you the opportunity to decide whether you want to provide that information on the application. While it may result in delay or denial of the application, they can't force you to authorize release to outside parties.
Consent does not have to be explicitly given through a separate signature or initialed box. It can be added to the instructions of the application: "By providing this information, you consent to having your fingerprints entered into the FBI NGI RAP-BACK system for monitoring by HPD." or something similar.
Since that horse already left the barn, they can not go back in time and force you to participate under threat of revoking an existing registration.
§134-3 Registration, mandatory, exceptions
(b) All registration data that would identify the individual registering the firearm by name or address shall be confidential and shall not be disclosed to anyone, except as may be required for processing the registration or as may be required by a law enforcement agency for the lawful performance of its duties or as may be required by order of a court.
Adding you to the data base could/would be considered lawful performance of its duties
ALso
(b) CONDITIONS OF DISCLOSURE.—No agency
shall disclose any record which is contained in a
system of records by any means of communication
to any person, or to another agency, except
pursuant to a written request by, or with the
prior written consent of, the individual to whom
the record pertains, unless disclosure of the
record would be—
(3) for a routine use as defined in subsection
(a)(7) of this section and described under subsection
(e)(4)(D) of this section;
(7) the term ‘‘routine use’’ means, with respect
to the disclosure of a record, the use of
such record for a purpose which is compatible
with the purpose for which it was collected
also
(7) to another agency or to an instrumentality
of any governmental jurisdiction within or
under the control of the United States for a
civil or criminal law enforcement activity if
the activity is authorized by law, and if the
head of the agency or instrumentality has
made a written request to the agency which
maintains the record specifying the particular
portion desired and the law enforcement activity
for which the record is sought;
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And you guys are surprise that the government pull a fast one on all of us, trust me some of these bills theirs more gun afirmitive action all hidden in bills just that politicians know how to hide it under people's eyes, sneaky politicians, welcome to the Game of Arms, politicians using big words to hide their agenda under certain bills and they wash it with other bills so no one notice, it goes on in congress it goes on every where, while the Florida shootings was going on with all the commotions, politicians pull one fast one on everyone in Hawaii, it troubles me that this happen but we live in a democratic state, and we have to take it, if this was a republic control state this stuff would not fly, politicians would shoot down these bills before it get to the floor.
It's wasn't really "pulling a fast one". We tried to get the info out there, we tried to get participation, we tried and mostly achieved a pretty good opposition to these bills. The problem is these politicians DO NOT CARE. Even with overwhelming opposition they went forward anyway. What is the reason you might ask? People DON'T VOTE THEM OUT. Why should they care if they are doing a good job or not? They never get fired. So they continue what they're doing.
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Based on the FBI's rules and the Privacy Act, they have to notify you your fingerprints will be added to the NGI/RAP-BACK database. Since they never did that for previous registrations, the only way they can "fix" that is try to invalidate the registrations so you have to come in and re-register the guns. Just sending out a form to sign won't work because they already completed the registration. Unless you no longer qualify to own guns, they can't revoke a valid registration for not signing a form that didn't exist before this month!
And there's the ex post facto rule. So you've got over 1 million guns not in the database, and a handful in it. And the Dims are lauding this as some historic gun control accomplishment. Sounds about right.
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If I'm wrong ,I m wrong please correct me but suppressing opinions without anyone correcting the underlying events that I stated is no better then China controlling the media. If I'm wrong I'm wrong and in this statement I made, I'm wrong, so wrong opinions make it right to delete without having the 2ahawaii community correcting me, 2ahawaii should think about it, does 2ahawaii want to delete someones opinion right or wrong or correct it.
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If I'm wrong ,I m wrong please correct me but suppressing opinions without anyone correcting the underlying events that I stated is no better then China controlling the media. If I'm wrong I'm wrong and in this statement I made, I'm wrong, so wrong opinions make it right to delete without having the 2ahawaii community correcting me, 2ahawaii should think about it, does 2ahawaii want to delete someones opinion right or wrong or correct it.
I am not seeing any of your posts that were deleted
You made a post in another thread that is still up
Perhaps you are looking in the wrong place
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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How do you know so much about the privacy act?
Every government form I ever signed or had others sign required privacy act notification. The general rule has always been, the government can't require you, outside of a criminal case or investigation, to give them personal information (SSAN, etc.), and can't share it with anyone they don't disclose, keep it on file for longer than needed, or use it for purposes other than reasons stated on the form. By opting to not disclose requested information, however, you may not get whatever it is you are applying for.
I'm not a lawyer. I not only had to understand the Privacy Act for my own information security practices, but also in my job working for the government.
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On the ATF 4473, this is in the instructions. 18 U.S.C. 923(g) outlines the FFL's record keeping requirements per ATF rules. That code identifies in detail what info to collect, why it is collected, and how long it is to be retained, and in what form.
(http://i.imgur.com/0akFgGn.png)
Notice the term "Solicitation", which to me implies this is a request, not a demand. You can opt to not provide the information, but expect to have the application denied depending on what info you withheld.
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On the ATF 4473, this is in the instructions. 18U.S.G. 923(g) outlines the FFL's record keeping requirements per ATF rules.
Notice the term "Solicitation", which to me implies this is a request, not a demand. You can opt to not provide the information, but expect to have the application denied depending on what info you withheld.
The Registration form held by HPD is not a 4473, is not an ATF or federal form but a State form. The Privacy Act of 1974 allows for sharing of data under certain circumstances (Like for Like) By providing HPD with finger prints and such they could argue you have given consent.
I am not saying this to be a dick but rather looking at if from the point of view on how i would defend this if i were the city/state.
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The Registration form held by HPD is not a 4473, is not an ATF or federal form but a State form. The Privacy Act of 1974 allows for sharing of data under certain circumstances (Like for Like) By providing HPD with finger prints and such they could argue you have given consent.
I am not saying this to be a dick but rather looking at if from the point of view on how i would defend this if i were the city/state.
Dude, this was an EXAMPLE of what should be on government forms requesting information: what, why, if mandatory, and retention.
Here's the HRS statute on sharing information with other agencies.
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol02_Ch0046-0115/HRS0092F/HRS_0092F-0019.htm
The first paragraph says:
Limitations on disclosure of government records to other agencies. (a) No agency may disclose or authorize disclosure of government records to any other agency unless the disclosure is:
(1) Necessary for the performance of the requesting agency's duties and functions and is also:
(A) Compatible with the purpose for which the information was collected or obtained; or
(B) Consistent with the conditions or reasonable expectations of use and disclosure under which the information was provided;
The PURPOSE for which the information was collected in the past was for approval or denial of an applicant's permit to ACQUIRE. Once that permit is approved and the firearm acquired, that should be the end of it. The purpose of the information was realized, and is no longer authorized for additional uses. The purpose was never to use that information to continually monitor the REGISTRANT for future revocation of that permit/registration. Once you get past the permit process, then you have to look into the purpose for the registration information. That's a little more vague. It's primary use is to establish a means of identifying the owner of a firearm as part of an investigation. That's being flipped around now to determine not which person owns a specific firearm, but what firearms a person owns.
I say it's vague because the purpose for registration isn't on the forms nor in the statutes. The best I can deduce is you are required to register all guns because the law says you have to!
Of course, the registration process is just the process. The real reasons have to do with control and verification. The Cops want to verify the guns meet Hawaii "legal to own" laws. verify you are who you claim to be, check the lineage (where you got it), look for guns which were stolen, assign an owner so they know who to hold legally responsible should they find a violation, etc. There's no way they are going to list all the potential uses of a registration on the form or anywhere in writing. The best we could get would be just a vague "IAW HRS 134-2 and HRS134-3". the same thing that's on the permit to acquire.
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Again, looking what the city/state could say.
the purpse of the form and fingerprinting is to conduct a background check to check for eligibility of owning a firearm in Hawaii, Rap-back is checking the same eligibility
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Again, looking what the city/state could say.
the purpse of the form and fingerprinting is to conduct a background check to check for eligibility of owning a firearm in Hawaii, Rap-back is checking the same eligibility
You're paraphrasing. The purpose of the Permit to Acquire is to acquire a firearm. The purpose of the NICS background, mental health background, and personal information provided on the application is to be used for the purpose of approving or denying the permit to acquire.
Rap-Back monitors subscribed individuals for ID purposes when a reporting condition triggers a notification to the subscribing agency. What the subscriber (HPD) does with that is NOT part of RAP-BACK. In other words, RAP-BACK doesn't have a list of Hawaii-specific triggers that only report to HPD when they are activated, e.g. domestic violence, gun crimes, felonies, drug crimes, etc. RAP-BACK has its own triggering criteria the subscriber selects from.
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Are you sure because my anger against gov Ige and his policies are all wrong I didn't even vote for him because he didn't even have a real job all his life, I like curt Caldwell he finds balance, he's not going to be on gun rights all the time maybe 25% of the time , but it beats Ige 0% of the time. I stand corrected I'm sorry
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:stopjack: