2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rocky on July 21, 2016, 10:08:20 AM
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Link from "Baton Rouge assassin's guns" post..
Must read. :crazy:
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/07/charles_kinsey_shot_hands_up.html#incart_most-read_crime_article
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
Even scarier is he fired 3 rounds from 30 ft at a guy laying still on the ground and hit him once in the leg .
:shake: :shake: :shake: :shake: :shake: :shake: :shake:
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Im wondering if this was a Negligent Discharge from a select fire weapon ? Explains why multiple shots and only 1 hit, Explains why the guy laying on the ground with his hands in the air was shot to start with.
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Im wondering if this was a Negligent Discharge from a select fire weapon ? Explains why multiple shots and only 1 hit, Explains why the guy laying on the ground with his hands in the air was shot to start with.
Police only hit an average of 20% - 50% of the things (people) they aim for. Very possible they were aiming at the other person and missed.
Doesn't explain why any of the Cops should have discharged a weapon at that point. No one appeared to be in danger other than the 2 with guns pointed at them!
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Police only hit an average of 20% - 50% of the things (people) they aim for. Very possible they were aiming at the other person and missed.
Doesn't explain why any of the Cops should have discharged a weapon at that point. No one appeared to be in danger other than the 2 with guns pointed at them!
Stolen from post comments...
"Standard police excuses that will be used...
resisting arrest...cant use that one
had a weapon...cant use that one
threatening act...cant use that one
aggressive move toward officer...cant use that one
failure to comply...cant use that one
violent criminal.... cant use that one
broken tail light ...cant use that one
acting suspiciously...cant use that one
fit the description of a suspect ...cant use that one
Wow what are we going to say ????
Hmmmm...oh I got it...it was an accident...wait ...no....gun was fired thee times...dang it
ok... figured it out...#ALLLIVESMATTER
REALLY"
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Stolen from post comments...
"Standard police excuses that will be used...
resisting arrest...cant use that one
had a weapon...cant use that one
threatening act...cant use that one
aggressive move toward officer...cant use that one
failure to comply...cant use that one
violent criminal.... cant use that one
broken tail light ...cant use that one
acting suspiciously...cant use that one
fit the description of a suspect ...cant use that one
Wow what are we going to say ????
Hmmmm...oh I got it...it was an accident...wait ...no....gun was fired thee times...dang it
ok... figured it out...#ALLLIVESMATTER
REALLY"
Accident, Selct fire weapon, 3 round burst......
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Stolen from post comments...
"Standard police excuses that will be used...
resisting arrest...cant use that one
had a weapon...cant use that one
threatening act...cant use that one
aggressive move toward officer...cant use that one
failure to comply...cant use that one
violent criminal.... cant use that one
broken tail light ...cant use that one
acting suspiciously...cant use that one
fit the description of a suspect ...cant use that one
Wow what are we going to say ????
Hmmmm...oh I got it...it was an accident...wait ...no....gun was fired thee times...dang it
ok... figured it out...#ALLLIVESMATTER
REALLY"
"Lengthy standoffs expose Cops to potential threats by BLM and other Cop haters unnecessarily. Ending the standoff as quickly as possible saved officers' lives by reducing the amount of time police would be targets for snipers and angry mobs. For all we know, the two could have been 'bait' for an ambush!"
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This is a strange one, I'd vote negligent discharge but hard to do that with 3 shots. The vast majority of police officers only have semi-auto while select-fire is usually given to their special teams. Possible a swat guy did it and it would really have to be negligent since the rifle should be on safe and select-fire is usually on the other side of the safety lever.
Would be difficult to be a miss if it was a swat guy firing. Handgun I could see missing. And at that range and circumstance you'd be firing in semi-auto mode, not select fire.
My guess is it was just one shot fired and guy thought it was 3. Whatever the case, the officer and department is screwed unless there's something big that we're not seeing.
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Hawaii News Now FB headline for this story: A new video of a police shooting in Miami is spurring widespread outrage.
I believe the "outrage" would be limited to "demand for answers":: if not for the media & social media.
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Cop shouldn't have even had his weapon off safe.
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Cop shouldn't have even had his weapon off safe.
I disagree. He should have had it off safety if his sights were on target. Since he hit the guy on the ground, I assume he was already in that mode.
I was trained to disengage the safety once you begin to acquire the target in your sights. Safety goes on after your firearm is at the ready or about to be holstered (handgun obviously).
Reason is, if you suddenly need to fire, most people will try pulling the trigger before remembering the safety is on. That's a delay that could cost a good guy his life -- maybe even you.
His finger being on the trigger is another thing entirely.
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there was zero indication of any reason to use deadly force in this environment. He shouldn't even have a weapon bearing down on anyone in this.
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Don't bother trying to rationalize this poor decision process, if this were anyone besides a cop doing this they would be in jail and the majority of the 2A community would condemn the shooter for it.
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there was zero indication of any reason to use deadly force in this environment. He shouldn't even have a weapon bearing down on anyone in this.
They got a call for man with weapon......
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Don't bother trying to rationalize this poor decision process, if this were anyone besides a cop doing this they would be in jail and the majority of the 2A community would condemn the shooter for it.
Once again, let's wait and find out what really happened. There is a video with a significant pause in the middle and no explanation about what caused that. Is that where the autistic person jumped up and the therapist lunged to pull him back down?
Wait, be patient, and hold off judgment until then. Otherwise, you are being as quick to judge others in the same way you accuse them of judging you, the public.
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Hawaii News Now FB headline for this story: A new video of a police shooting in Miami is spurring widespread outrage.
I believe the "outrage" would be limited to "demand for answers":: if not for the media & social media.
If the guy shot was white would we even be hearing this as new
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They got a call for man with weapon......
and instead found two people, one with arms empty and in the air and one "armed" with a toy truck.
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If the guy shot was white would we even be hearing this as new
Good example of a rhetorical question!
As Sheriff Clarke says, Obama is NOT the President of all the people -- only of "his people". And the media does everything they can to support Obama and his message.
https://youtu.be/dAu44wVgb58
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The truth emerges. He hit the wrong guy.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/07/21/north-miami-police-shooting-accidental-union-says/87414898/
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The truth emerges. He hit the wrong guy.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/07/21/north-miami-police-shooting-accidental-union-says/87414898/
Hitting the wrong person and then claiming to be aiming for the guy with a toy truck instead is just as egregious.
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and instead found two people, one with arms empty and in the air and one "armed" with a toy truck.
Yep and so they treat them both as suspects until they work out whats going on,
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Yep and so they treat them both as suspects until they work out whats going on,
you mean treated them as guilty until proved otherwise.
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you mean treated them as guilty until proved otherwise.
Tomato :: Tomattow
Guilty :: "Unknown Threat based on a call someone had a gun"
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If an officer cannot tell the difference between a toy truck and a gun then he is stupid as hell and unqualified to do his job. If he is supposedly a swat officer he should have a mental evaluation to check his intelligence and mental health. 3 shots and he hits the wrong guy???
The two uniformed officers shown in the video had cover and concealment and time enough to identify if a gun was visible. The supposed victim who was closest states it is a toy truck and no gun is present. The officer on the right side of video should have moved closer, there was another barrier he could of taken cover behind of while the other officer stayed in place and offered protective fire from his position.
In my opinion from video seen. For whatever reason the inept officer was totally negligent and should be at least fired and P.D. Sued. The story of trying to protect the therapist is a story. Never forget the C&C, state and federal admins will always side with the officer right or wrong. Simply to reduce liability damages and they will never want to admit that there highly vetted, highly trained officers was defective.
Unless any other video shows contradictory views. That is how I see it.
I would like to help people and save lives. But I never became a surgeon as I know I am highly unqualified.
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I'm suspicious of how the video posted shows:
- the worker on the ground, on his back & with hands raised,
- the group home "escapee" sitting next to the worker and having outbursts you expect from some of those with autism, but
- NO VIDEO OF THE SHOOTING!??
How do you post "before" and "after" video, but there's no video of the actual shooting?
Things that make you go "Hmmmm."
In the past, people have posted only the video that tells the side of the story they want to tell. In this case, I'd think the person doing the video would want the truth made public. ???
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I'm suspicious of how the video posted shows:
- the worker on the ground, on his back & with hands raised,
- the group home "escapee" sitting next to the worker and having outbursts you expect from some of those with autism, but
- NO VIDEO OF THE SHOOTING!??
How do you post "before" and "after" video, but there's no video of the actual shooting?
Things that make you go "Hmmmm."
In the past, people have posted only the video that tells the side of the story they want to tell. In this case, I'd think the person doing the video would want the truth made public. ???
I'm dumbfounded how you still try to remove any sort of responsibility from the police even after they have admitted to shooting on purpose.
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I'm dumbfounded how you still try to remove any sort of responsibility from the police even after they have admitted to shooting on purpose.
I'm trying to figure out how my call to "wait and find out what really happened," gets translated by you into "try[ing] to remove any sort of responsibility from the police"! :rofl:
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I'm trying to figure out how my call to "wait and find out what really happened," gets translated by you into "try[ing] to remove any sort of responsibility from the police"! :rofl:
what are you waiting for? they admitted fault and then simultaneously cleared themselves of any wrong doing.
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My Bad. :oops:
Correction... ::)
What's even scarier is the officer fired 3 rounds from about 50 ft away at an "large" autistic guy sitting in the middle of the road playing with a toy truck and MISSES HIM ALL THREE TIMES but manages to hit his therapist who is laying down in the road with his hands in the air and was obviously directly behind the target.
I repeat :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
:shake: :shake: :shake: :shake: :shake: :shake:
Your not even safe when your being protected. :wacko:
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My Bad. :oops:
Correction... ::)
What's even scarier is the officer fired 3 rounds from about 50 ft away at an "large" autistic guy sitting in the middle of the road playing with a toy truck and MISSES HIM ALL THREE TIMES but manages to hit his therapist who is laying down in the road with his hands in the air and was obviously directly behind the target.
I repeat :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
:shake: :shake: :shake: :shake: :shake: :shake:
Your not even safe when your being protected. :wacko:
I'm from the government and I'm here to help!
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I disagree. He should have had it off safety if his sights were on target. Since he hit the guy on the ground, I assume he was already in that mode.
I was trained to disengage the safety once you begin to acquire the target in your sights. Safety goes on after your firearm is at the ready or about to be holstered (handgun obviously).
Reason is, if you suddenly need to fire, most people will try pulling the trigger before remembering the safety is on. That's a delay that could cost a good guy his life -- maybe even you.
His finger being on the trigger is another thing entirely.
That is why I carry a Glock. No safety to worry about, just press the trigger.
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Why can't people learn to film properly in the wide angle mode!
It is odd that the video cuts out and then cuts in later and from a different angle. Were their multiple videographers? Did someone do some selective editing?
In the video you cannot see what the boy is holding but of course in person you are going to see a lot more detail.
I agree that 3 rounds is troubling for an accidental shooting. A burst fire weapon would explain how that could have happened. I cannot imagine accidentally firing 3 rounds.
It could be that the officer had it in his mind the truck was a firearm because of the 911 call. For example in a tense situation I say that person has a gun, and even though they don't you still see the object as a gun. In the cop's mind they truly believe they see/saw a gun. It is not always the case that the officer is lying but that their perception was just wrong. People look at police shootings and automatically think that if the officer said something that is later shown to be wrong that the officer lied and was trying to cover something up, but this isn't always the case. (Lying requires knowing that a statement being made is untrue) I think there is a term for the phenomena, let me see if I can find it.
I cannot find a specific term but here is some general information on the power of suggestion. What goes on in the human brain is very complex.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestibility
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Charles Kinsey, a therapist helping an autistic man in his care, was shot by North Miami police as he lay on the ground with his hands in the air. Kinsey describes the shooting from his hospital bed.
The North Miami police officer who shot an unarmed black man earlier this week was actually aiming for the autistic man in his care, according to the local police union’s leader.
John Rivera, president of Dade County Police Benevolent Association, said the officers on the scene thought the autistic man’s toy was a gun and that he intended to harm Charles Kinsey, a behavioral therapist at a nearby assisted-living home.
“Many officers thought the white male had a firearm. Only much later when we’re able to Monday-morning quarterback do we find out that it’s a toy,” Rivera said at a press conference Thursday. “Only much later do we find out that the individual was autistic. The officers on the scene did not know that.”
The cop took aim at the autistic man on Monday because he thought Kinsey’s life was in danger, but missed and accidentally struck the caretaker instead, he said.
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The cop took aim at the autistic man on Monday because he thought Kinsey’s life was in danger, but missed and accidentally struck the caretaker instead, he said.
(http://i.imgur.com/qMjvUuT.png)
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this must be how the officer was convinced there was a gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY5zuerWj_E
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It is better to rely on yourself for protection. Calling the police can get you killed.
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Charles Kinsey, a therapist helping an autistic man in his care, was shot by North Miami police as he lay on the ground with his hands in the air. Kinsey describes the shooting from his hospital bed.
The North Miami police officer who shot an unarmed black man earlier this week was actually aiming for the autistic man in his care, according to the local police union’s leader.
John Rivera, president of Dade County Police Benevolent Association, said the officers on the scene thought the autistic man’s toy was a gun and that he intended to harm Charles Kinsey, a behavioral therapist at a nearby assisted-living home.
“Many officers thought the white male had a firearm. Only much later when we’re able to Monday-morning quarterback do we find out that it’s a toy,” Rivera said at a press conference Thursday. “Only much later do we find out that the individual was autistic. The officers on the scene did not know that.”
The cop took aim at the autistic man on Monday because he thought Kinsey’s life was in danger, but missed and accidentally struck the caretaker instead, he said.
I don't know what the toy truck looked like so it is hard to say whether the mistake was reasonable. Unfortunately for us armchair judges, we don't have any video of what happened at the time of the shooting. I am thinking maybe the officer should be dismissed from the department but there doesn't seem to be enough evidence of a criminal act.
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I don't know what the toy truck looked like so it is hard to say whether the mistake was reasonable. Unfortunately for us armchair judges, we don't have any video of what happened at the time of the shooting. I am thinking maybe the officer should be dismissed from the department but there doesn't seem to be enough evidence of a criminal act.
If you shot at a person that you thought had a gun but turned out to only be a toy truck and also at the same time missed and hit someone else, would that be a criminal act?
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Hitting the wrong person and then claiming to be aiming for the guy with a toy truck instead is just as egregious.
When I was in the military( air force), due to my specialty
I was required to be able to get on an aircraft and go world wide
in an hour or so. My yearly shooting qualification
was usually Security police style, timed, right handed, left handed
all sorts of contorted positions and we had to be 95%
on target with semi auto firing, full auto not allowed( M16A1).
I always passed.
If a cop is that scared, shaking, and missed his target, they don't need to
carry guns. My feeling, especially for Hawaii is to dis-arm all
cops except for SWAT and give them all Tasers. After all it is
so safe here we don't allow the issue of concealed carry licenses.
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Why can't people learn to film properly in the wide angle mode!
It is odd that the video cuts out and then cuts in later and from a different angle. Were their multiple videographers? Did someone do some selective editing?
In the video you cannot see what the boy is holding but of course in person you are going to see a lot more detail.
I agree that 3 rounds is troubling for an accidental shooting. A burst fire weapon would explain how that could have happened. I cannot imagine accidentally firing 3 rounds.
It could be that the officer had it in his mind the truck was a firearm because of the 911 call. For example in a tense situation I say that person has a gun, and even though they don't you still see the object as a gun. In the cop's mind they truly believe they see/saw a gun. It is not always the case that the officer is lying but that their perception was just wrong. People look at police shootings and automatically think that if the officer said something that is later shown to be wrong that the officer lied and was trying to cover something up, but this isn't always the case. (Lying requires knowing that a statement being made is untrue) I think there is a term for the phenomena, let me see if I can find it.
I cannot find a specific term but here is some general information on the power of suggestion. What goes on in the human brain is very complex.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestibility
I'm a hunter and a veteran. I was always taught, to aim small shoot small.
I'm not trained to be a policeman. I'm trained to use a gun to destroy and
enjoy target practice.
If I believe that if I have draw my weapon on a target, it is so serious it
must be used. If it is not that serious, you don't draw it out.
While I may be a very good hunter or soldier, I'm not a very good
cop. Cops are there to enforce laws, not kill.
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I'll usually try and side with the officers in unknown situations, but this is very negligent. Lots of things that went wrong. I understand there was a call about a guy with a gun and that can be very stressful for police. However....
1. It was a SWAT officer. I know most police officers aren't very good with handguns and rifles, but this should have been a well trained SWAT officer, in firearms, handling stress, and shoot/no shoot situations.
2. He had a rifle. He missed with 3 shots. I don't think it could have been more than 50 yards away since in the video a police guy was behind a pole 25 yards away. I know sometimes police rifles aren't zero'd well and he's operating under stress, but he missed 3 close range shots with no cover. And he must've had a bad angle he shouldn't have shot from.
3. They had a clear view. Closest officer was 25 yards away and everything was in the open. He should have been able to see everything and know the object wasn't a gun.
4. The therapist. He was telling the officers what the situation was. Police shouldn't trust anyone, but they should have strongly considered what he said and determined with other observations that there was no threat.
5. They had time. The police were there for at least a few minutes so they should have been able to properly assess the situation.
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If you shot at a person that you thought had a gun but turned out to only be a toy truck and also at the same time missed and hit someone else, would that be a criminal act?
Not necessarily. If it turns out to be obvious that the object was a toy then the cop could be charged with something as his actions would be either negligent or reckless. But if it turns out that there was reason to believe the object could have been mistaken for a real gun then I don't think you would meet the standard for a crime. Hitting someone by accident is for the most part irrelevant as to whether it was a crime. I think it is enough to review whether this guy should still be a cop though.