2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: armsinc on September 04, 2016, 11:04:13 AM
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But I don't know how to weld any one got any tips or recommend youtube videos?
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Let me help you here with some additional information : Blows my friken mind.
This is what i sent to HPD :
Message: As per HRS §134-1 Definitions. How does HPD define a detachable magazine
This is what i got in reply :
The Honolulu Police Department does not define the definition of detachable magazine. The Hawaii Legislature and the Attorney Generals office would define the detachable magazine. HRS 134-1 refers to characteristics for an Assault Pistol.
(1) An ammunition magazine which attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
So i contacted the AG's office :
I am having trouble find the answer to a question regarding HRS §134-1. It defines an assault pistol as having a detachable magazine. But does not define what a Detachable Magazine is.
In this case would the definition be the same as used by the ATF for the 1994 assault weapon ban (which Hawaiis law mirrors) or does the state have its own definition ?
This is what i got in reply :
In regards to a “detachable magazine,” you are correct that HRS section 134-1 defines “Assault pistol” to mean a semiautomatic pistol which accepts a detachable magazine. Additionally it goes on to say, “and which has two or more of the following characteristics:
(1) An ammunition magazine which attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;
(3) A shroud which is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and which permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;
(4) A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;
(5) A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or
(6) It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;
but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length, an antique pistol as defined in this section or a curio or relic as those terms are used in 18 United States Code §921(16) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations 178.11.”
While the Hawaii Revised Statutes does not explicitly define “detachable magazine,” I cannot comment whether Hawaii would mimic the definition used by the ATF. If a case arose wherein a definition is necessary, the facts would be assessed and dealt with on a case by case situation. Furthermore, I am prohibited by statute to offer a legal opinion pursuant to HRS section 26-7.
To which i replied:
Thank you for your prompt reply, Perhaps i can rephrase my question in a way that your office can answer my question. As the cheif legal office for the state, responsible for enforcing violations of state law, How dose your department define the term "Detachable Magazine" in regards to HRS 134-1.
To which i got the response :
As mentioned earlier, while the Hawaii Revised Statutes does not explicitly define “detachable magazine,” I cannot comment whether my office would mimic the definition used by the ATF or provide another definition. If a case arose wherein a definition is necessary, the facts would be assessed and dealt with on a case by case situation. Furthermore, I am prohibited by statute to offer a legal opinion pursuant to HRS section 26-7.
To which i responded :
Well i am trying to follow the law but no one seems to know what the law is. The law uses an undefined term, HPD is telling me that the AG (your office) decides what that term means but you are telling me that you do not have a definition and will only define what it is after some one has been accused of a crime. How does that make any sense ? How can some one follow a law when your saying your department makes it up as you go along ?
I am yet to get a response :
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I was under the impression that people were building these and registering them did something change?
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People are building them with welded magwells. which you want to do, Thats perfectly fine (even if its a waste of a lower). My information is to show that there is no law or legal definition saying that you have to have a welded lower.
IMO (not to be considered legal advice) you could have a magazine that is able to be disassembled or serviced, As long as you have to use a tool to remove it. The question is do you want to go through the hassel of challenging it in court IF the police decide that in their opinion you are wrong.
My e-mails show that HPD says they have no definition of the law other than what is provided by the AG or the legislators (they do no define law they only pass the text) The AG is saying they do not have a defintion for detachable This would indicate that the law is unenforceable until such time that detachable is defined.
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If I had the money and time I would challenge it along with other aspects of our firearm laws. However at this point in my life don't have the ability to challenge those ambiguous poorly written/ unconstitutional laws. As far AG office how long ago was you last email
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If I had the money and time I would challenge it along with other aspects of our firearm laws. However at this point in my life don't have the ability to challenge those ambiguous poorly written/ unconstitutional laws. As far AG office how long ago was you last email
Today, should get a response Tuesday or wendsday and if in don't in will. All to remind them.
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You might not actually need to weld the magazine in the traditional sense. What about a product like JB weld, essentially a glue of some sort. This would be a gray area as well though since weld is not defined either.
There is one option where you would not have to weld the magazine but the gun would no longer be a semi-auto. Some companies make pump action AR rifles and pistols. So if you built one or bought it, the lower would be registered as a pistol but since it would no longer be semi-auto it would not qualify as an assault pistol and would not have to have a welded magazine. I want to build one someday but haven't gotten around to it. Just some other options to consider.
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I think I have a glue stick lying around from elementary school.
Will that pass
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They are not assault pistols with the magazine welded in.
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I think I have a glue stick lying around from elementary school.
Will that pass
Nope
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I don't understand why you couldn't just insert the magazine then make a large plug in place of the release button then plug weld it in place. The mag will not be able to drop free unless you drill out the plug, that would be the same as pin and welding a muzzle device on the barrel. It would be just as difficult to remove an aluminum welded mag.
HPD makes up there own rules, knowing most people don't have the time, funds, or patience to challenge their illegal rulings.
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Can you use jb weld?
You might not actually need to weld the magazine in the traditional sense. What about a product like JB weld, essentially a glue of some sort. This would be a gray area as well though since weld is not defined either.
There is one option where you would not have to weld the magazine but the gun would no longer be a semi-auto. Some companies make pump action AR rifles and pistols. So if you built one or bought it, the lower would be registered as a pistol but since it would no longer be semi-auto it would not qualify as an assault pistol and would not have to have a welded magazine. I want to build one someday but haven't gotten around to it. Just some other options to consider.
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Just put a 16" barrel on it minus a stock, don't need to change a thing.
AG said it themselves above:
In regards to a “detachable magazine,” you are correct that HRS section 134-1 defines “Assault pistol” to mean a semiautomatic pistol which accepts a detachable magazine. Additionally it goes on to say, “and which has two or more of the following characteristics:
(1) An ammunition magazine which attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;
(3) A shroud which is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and which permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;
(4) A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;
(5) A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or
(6) It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;
but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length, an antique pistol as defined in this section or a curio or relic as those terms are used in 18 United States Code §921(16) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations 178.11.”
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Can you use jb weld?
you want to read the threads of people who have actually done it rather than listen to someone who says, "You might not" and thinks they found a "gray area"
or ask hpd firearms division
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I don't understand why you couldn't just insert the magazine then make a large plug in place of the release button then plug weld it in place. The mag will not be able to drop free unless you drill out the plug, that would be the same as pin and welding a muzzle device on the barrel. It would be just as difficult to remove an aluminum welded mag.
you can. people need to stop asking HPD for permission to do stuff.
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you can. people need to stop asking HPD for permission to do stuff.
Problem is that if they do not approve they can/will confiscate the lower and you'll have to sue to get it back.
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Just put a 16" barrel on it minus a stock, don't need to change a thing.
a 16 inch barrel makes it a rifle ? as a pistol is defined as any firearm with a barrel less then 16 inchs
"Pistol" or "revolver" means any firearm of any shape with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas.
OR
would a pistol with a 16 inch barrel be classified as a "Firearm" as it does not and has never had a stock ?
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Problem is that if they do not approve they can/will confiscate the lower and you'll have to sue to get it back.
If you want rights you have to be willing to fight for them. That being said....
take in a stripped lower. They can not make a determination that it is an assault pistol because the firearm does not have an action, barrel, hand guard or heat shield, detachable or attached magazine ect......
Configure it any way you want after the fact.
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ask hpd firearms division
Get a big dog..........
People need to stop letting HPD eroding their right based on there ideals. HPD has stated in the e-mails above that they do not make the determination on what Detachable means, they get their direction from the AG and legislators. the AG says they dont have one and legislators cant not make a indention outside of the wording in the law. So any information regarding a detachable magazine you get from HPD is wrong or a lie.
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I've shot a friend's AR pistol that had a Magpul mag, or some other polymer mag. I didn't ask them how it was secured since I have no interest in building one myself, but it sure wasn't coming out.
Personally, I think AR pistols are cool and fun to shoot, but I just have no desire to build or own one. That said, I wouldn't mind doing some testing with one to see what the muzzle velocity and accuracy is like compared to a 16" barreled AR.
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I've shot a friend's AR pistol that had a Magpul mag, or some other polymer mag. I didn't ask them how it was secured since I have no interest in building one myself, but it sure wasn't coming out.
Personally, I think AR pistols are cool and fun to shoot, but I just have no desire to build or own one. That said, I wouldn't mind doing some testing with one to see what the muzzle velocity and accuracy is like compared to a 16" barreled AR.
My thoughts too.
I think if its a pistol you want it is easier to buy a real pistol i.e. Glock or 1911.
No bother welding things or jumping through all the legal definitions.
But I think it is cool. SHot one at the range. Reloading is a pain and in a real firefight a guy with a conventional pistol will reload faster than you can.
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My thoughts too.
I think if its a pistol you want it is easier to buy a real pistol i.e. Glock or 1911.
No bother welding things or jumping through all the legal definitions.
But I think it is cool. SHot one at the range. Reloading is a pain and in a real firefight a guy with a conventional pistol will reload faster than you can.
30 round mags in an AR pistol are legal as the mag is not detachable. so could be fun. Could make a good home defense weapon as well.
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a 16 inch barrel makes it a rifle ? as a pistol is defined as any firearm with a barrel less then 16 inchs
"Pistol" or "revolver" means any firearm of any shape with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas.
OR
would a pistol with a 16 inch barrel be classified as a "Firearm" as it does not and has never had a stock ?
Yes, its just a firearm and not classified as an Assault Pistol, regardless of its operation and detachable magazine.
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So i got a reply from the AG's office
Unfortunately, the Attorney General cannot analyze, or provide legal advice to private citizens. As provided by statute:
The department shall administer and render state legal services, including furnishing of written legal opinions to the governor, legislature, and such state departments and officers as the governor may direct; represent the State in all civil actions in which the State is a party; approve as to legality and form all documents relating to the acquisition of any land or interest in lands by the State; and, unless otherwise provided by law, prosecute cases involving violations of state laws and cases involving agreements, uniform laws, or other matters which are enforceable in the courts of the State. The attorney general shall be charged with such other duties and have such authority as heretofore provided by common law or statute. Section 26-7, Hawaii Revised Statutes.
I regret that we are unable to help you.
So i went with the next step : I called the Govoners office to get an answer. I explained that i have asked HPD what the defintion is and they said they dont have one and that the AG's office would make that determination, I spoke to the AG's office and they say they dont have one but would make one up if they think some one broke a law ( WTF ). I expalined that they are refusing to answer the question based on the idea that they are prohibited by law from doing so. She said she would speak to the police department and get back to me, I again explained that i have spoken (via e-mail) to the current administration at HPD and that they say its the AG who makes that defintion. She said she will call the AG's office and find out WHY they wont answer the question and get back to me.
Looking at other state laws it is my opinion that there is a difference between detachable (for the purpose of reloading more ammo) and dissaseblable (the process of taking apart). one is an action that can be completed rapidly without tools, the other is a process that takes longer and requires tools.
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Depending on what happens with the govoners office the only other option would be a lawsuit to force the AG's office to make a determination of the definition.
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Loving all this information, but I guess we got a little off topic.... Lol :rofl:
to weld an aluminum mag to an aluminum receiver requires the use of a tungsten inert gas(TIG) welder that has A/C current capability. The wall thickness of the magazine metal will determine the difficulty in producing a good looking weld and care must be taken as to not distort the magazine and/or receiver.
On you tube look for "welding tips and tricks" channel. He has very good videos on welding all types of materials. ;D
On the topic of legal definitions of AR pistol and mags. I am interested in your data too London! Thank you for taking the time to inquire! :shaka: :thumbsup: :shaka:
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Yeah sorry was not my intention to Hijack, But i think its important to know that the only reason you have to weld the mags is becasue some one at HPD once decided that you had to and it has nothing to do with the law.
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So i got a reply from the AG's office
Unfortunately, the Attorney General cannot analyze, or provide legal advice to private citizens. As provided by statute:
The department shall administer and render state legal services, including furnishing of written legal opinions to the governor, legislature, and such state departments and officers as the governor may direct; represent the State in all civil actions in which the State is a party; approve as to legality and form all documents relating to the acquisition of any land or interest in lands by the State; and, unless otherwise provided by law, prosecute cases involving violations of state laws and cases involving agreements, uniform laws, or other matters which are enforceable in the courts of the State. The attorney general shall be charged with such other duties and have such authority as heretofore provided by common law or statute. Section 26-7, Hawaii Revised Statutes.
I regret that we are unable to help you.
So i went with the next step : I called the Govoners office to get an answer. I explained that i have asked HPD what the defintion is and they said they dont have one and that the AG's office would make that determination, I spoke to the AG's office and they say they dont have one but would make one up if they think some one broke a law ( WTF ). I expalined that they are refusing to answer the question based on the idea that they are prohibited by law from doing so. She said she would speak to the police department and get back to me, I again explained that i have spoken (via e-mail) to the current administration at HPD and that they say its the AG who makes that defintion. She said she will call the AG's office and find out WHY they wont answer the question and get back to me.
Looking at other state laws it is my opinion that there is a difference between detachable (for the purpose of reloading more ammo) and dissaseblable (the process of taking apart). one is an action that can be completed rapidly without tools, the other is a process that takes longer and requires tools.
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Depending on what happens with the govoners office the only other option would be a lawsuit to force the AG's office to make a determination of the definition.
If nothing else, your correspondence would be evidence that you attempted to follow the law in the event you, or someone else, ever got in trouble with this issue.
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I've shot a friend's AR pistol that had a Magpul mag, or some other polymer mag. I didn't ask them how it was secured since I have no interest in building one myself, but it sure wasn't coming out.
Personally, I think AR pistols are cool and fun to shoot, but I just have no desire to build or own one. That said, I wouldn't mind doing some testing with one to see what the muzzle velocity and accuracy is like compared to a 16" barreled AR.
That brings up an important point. How are you supposed to weld a magazine made out of plastic? That is one argument that could work. Tell them the magazine you have isn't metal and could not be welded using traditional welding so you had to use epoxy. Still sucks but at least it is easier and cheaper than actually metal welding.
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That brings up an important point. How are you supposed to weld a magazine made out of plastic? That is one argument that could work. Tell them the magazine you have isn't metal and could not be welded using traditional welding so you had to use epoxy. Still sucks but at least it is easier and cheaper than actually metal welding.
Others have tried other methods of "permanently affixing" the magazine to the receiver in other ways vice welding. HPD denied. I believe to procedure from HPD was it needed to have at least a weld bead extending the length of the magwell on two sides. (nowhere in the law states that kind of requirement)
Have to look for those threads and post it. maybe later.
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Others have tried other methods of "permanently affixing" the magazine to the receiver in other ways vice welding. HPD denied. I believe to procedure from HPD was it needed to have at least a weld bead extending the length of the magwell on two sides. (nowhere in the law states that kind of requirement)
Have to look for those threads and post it. maybe later.
I was not aware of other failed attempts. I can see where they would want to see the visible portion of the weld though. If that is their focus then an epoxy applied at the edge, similar to a weld, might be an option. Depends on what others who have tried and failed say.
Of course it could depend on who you get at the HPD window.
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I was not aware of other failed attempts.
perhaps you should research things before you speak...
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perhaps you should research things before you speak...
he needs a root canal....
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Others have tried other methods of "permanently affixing" the magazine to the receiver in other ways vice welding. HPD denied. I believe to procedure from HPD was it needed to have at least a weld bead extending the length of the magwell on two sides. (nowhere in the law states that kind of requirement)
Have to look for those threads and post it. maybe later.
The largest part of the problem is people just go along with whatever HPD says as being lawful. No one wants to put the time and/or effort and/or funds into challenge them. If i had of gone along with what they said i would of had to spend around $3k on flights to England OR not been able to own guns.
The easiest way to follow the law and not have to deal with HPD's bullshit is register an incomplete lower only as a pistol and configure it however is legal after the fact. HPD.
"The Honolulu Police Department does not define the definition of detachable magazine. "
"Hawaii Revised Statutes does not explicitly define “detachable magazine,” "If a case arose wherein a definition is necessary, the facts would be assessed and dealt with on a case by case situation."
HPD has no definition because the AG's office has not provided one.
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The largest part of the problem is people just go along with whatever HPD says as being lawful. No one wants to put the time and/or effort and/or funds into challenge them. If i had of gone along with what they said i would of had to spend around $3k on flights to England OR not been able to own guns.
The easiest way to follow the law and not have to deal with HPD's bullshit is register an incomplete lower only as a pistol and configure it however is legal after the fact. HPD.
"The Honolulu Police Department does not define the definition of detachable magazine. "
"Hawaii Revised Statutes does not explicitly define “detachable magazine,” "If a case arose wherein a definition is necessary, the facts would be assessed and dealt with on a case by case situation."
HPD has no definition because the AG's office has not provided one.
In other words, they make the laws however, they feel like it.
What if they decide that all ARs are pistols?
So what does the AG do? Legal counsel for the governor and not the people? Hmmm maybe we should stop paying them with our tax money
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In other words, they make the laws however, they feel like it.
What if they decide that all ARs are pistols?
So what does the AG do? Legal counsel for the governor and not the people? Hmmm maybe we should stop paying them with our tax money
Are you gona hate me if i tell you that under Hawaiis laws Ar15's are already illgeal ?
"Automatic firearm" means any firearm that shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily modified to shoot automatically more than one shot, without a manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such firearm, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or any combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a firearm into an automatic firearm, and any combination of parts from which an automatic firearm can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a single person.
All it takes is for HPD to decide it. The problem with laws is that they are subjective untill proven otherwise.
The AG's office has nothing to do with the people of Hawaii. The law that creates them says that they are for the governor and the state to provide legal counsel and representation in legal cases on their behalf. It does not say that this is their excursive job tho and the governor can tell them to do anything he pleases
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can be readily modified to shoot automatically more than one shot.
It will only take about 30mins and a portable drill to convert a semi into a full auto AR15.
just drill a hole and add a sear, so easy !!!!! Full auto trigger parts are legal and can lawfully be bought.
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u666/suka5168/receiver_template_simplified_mini_zps8koghace.jpg) (http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/suka5168/media/receiver_template_simplified_mini_zps8koghace.jpg.html)
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can be readily modified to shoot automatically more than one shot.
It will only take about 30mins and a portable drill to convert a semi into a full auto AR15.
just drill a hole and add a sear, so easy !!!!! Full auto trigger parts are legal and can lawfully be bought.
In Hawaii possession of all the parts, assembled or otherwise is the same as having the finished product
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Are you gona hate me if i tell you that under Hawaiis laws Ar15's are already illgeal ?
"Automatic firearm" means any firearm that shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily modified to shoot automatically more than one shot, without a manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such firearm, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or any combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a firearm into an automatic firearm, and any combination of parts from which an automatic firearm can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a single person.
All it takes is for HPD to decide it. The problem with laws is that they are subjective untill proven otherwise.
The AG's office has nothing to do with the people of Hawaii. The law that creates them says that they are for the governor and the state to provide legal counsel and representation in legal cases on their behalf. It does not say that this is their excursive job tho and the governor can tell them to do anything he pleases
HK's are even easier to convert, the receivers need not be modified to fire full auto.
A slightly filed surplus trigger pack and surplus bolt is all that is required.
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In Hawaii possession of all the parts, assembled or otherwise is the same as having the finished product
not if its shipped and stored at your Grandmas house, not under a single persons control.
Its what the ATF recommends while waiting for your Forms 1 to be approved.
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Talked to the Sergeant today he explain the process to me. He told me that if I weld it its non transferable. He said if it is not fully assembled and it's just the lower and mag I can keep trying till it is acceptable and it will not be confiscated. It must be welded all around the mag the mag catch dosent have to be welded but must be tested with out the mag catch.
Are you gona hate me if i tell you that under Hawaiis laws Ar15's are already illgeal ?
"Automatic firearm" means any firearm that shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily modified to shoot automatically more than one shot, without a manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such firearm, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or any combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a firearm into an automatic firearm, and any combination of parts from which an automatic firearm can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a single person.
All it takes is for HPD to decide it. The problem with laws is that they are subjective untill proven otherwise.
The AG's office has nothing to do with the people of Hawaii. The law that creates them says that they are for the governor and the state to provide legal counsel and representation in legal cases on their behalf. It does not say that this is their excursive job tho and the governor can tell them to do anything he pleases
Ar 15 is not readily convertible 2 full auto. Hawaii state does not define readily convertible. The federal government has and according to them and AR-15 without the hole for the full auto peice not readily convertible.
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Talked to the Sergeant today he explain the process to me. He told me that if I weld it its non transferable. He said if it is not fully assembled and it's just the lower and mag I can keep trying till it is acceptable and it will not be confiscated. It must be welded all around the mag the mag catch dosent have to be welded but must be tested with out the mag catch.
Ar 15 is not readily convertible 2 full auto. Hawaii state does not define readily convertible. The federal government has and according to them and AR-15 without the hole for the full auto peice not readily convertible.
I still don't understand where in HRS is it non transferable? Perhaps you can ask them (Sgt.) that.
All firearms can be transferred, even Home Made firearms !
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The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) permits an unlicensed individual to make a firearm for personal use, but not for sale or distribution. However, the law does not explicitly preclude an unlicensed person from later selling, giving away, or otherwise transferring a homemade firearm to another person as long as it was originally intended for personal use. A gun explicitly made for personal use can be sold or transferred in the same way that a factory-made firearm of that same class can be sold or transferred:
(http://www.victorinc.com/images/ATF's%20AMD-65%20Response%20-%20Pg%202.jpg)
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The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) permits an unlicensed individual to make a firearm for personal use, but not for sale or distribution. However, the law does not explicitly preclude an unlicensed person from later selling, giving away, or otherwise transferring a homemade firearm to another person as long as it was originally intended for personal use. A gun explicitly made for personal use can be sold or transferred in the same way that a factory-made firearm of that same class can be sold or transferred:
(http://www.victorinc.com/images/ATF's%20AMD-65%20Response%20-%20Pg%202.jpg)
I am waiting for my own letter from atf I argued profusely when I registered my 80 % I made ..... they said if I can get a letter from the atf explaining that it is transferable they would remove the non-transferable part from my registration.... still waiting....
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It take about 2-3 month for an ATF reply on letterhead.
As mentioned above the GCA of 68 does allow transfer of all firearms.
Please post the letter why you get a reply, THANK YOU
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I am waiting for my own letter from atf I argued profusely when I registered my 80 % I made ..... they said if I can get a letter from the atf explaining that it is transferable they would remove the non-transferable part from my registration.... still waiting....
Sound like a easy win lawsuit against HPD when that letter comes in.
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Sound like a easy win lawsuit against HPD when that letter comes in.
Sounds like something that should be resolved with a question : what law prohibits me from transferring it.......
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Sounds like something that should be resolved with a question : what law prohibits me from transferring it.......
The GCA does not prohibit the transfer of personal firearms.
Also the Commence Clause of the US Constitution does not prohibit it.
A state has the power to regulate intrastate commerce , where Congress has not chosen to legislate, as long as there is no injustice or unreasonable discrimination in favor of intrastate commerce.
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The GCA does not prohibit the transfer of personal firearms.
Also the Commence Clause of the US Constitution does not prohibit it.
A state has the power to regulate intrastate commerce , where Congress has not chosen to legislate, as long as there is no injustice or unreasonable discrimination in favor of intrastate commerce.
Well thats what i mean, If you ask HPD what law prohibits transfer of an 80% lower, they wont be able to tell you. Other then Its a policy.
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It would be a good Class Action Lawsuit against HPD , since several AR Pistols/ Homebuilds out there with owner having a "MAY NOT BE TRANSFERRED" on there registration receipt .
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perhaps you should research things before you speak...
Perhaps you would like to point me to documentation where anything and everything ever denied by HPD is compiled? I gave an option to consider. I didn't make any promises of legality.
Your trolling is both rude and unnessary. How about you keep you mouth shut if you have nothing constructive to add.
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Talked to the Sergeant today he explain the process to me. He told me that if I weld it its non transferable. He said if it is not fully assembled and it's just the lower and mag I can keep trying till it is acceptable and it will not be confiscated. It must be welded all around the mag the mag catch dosent have to be welded but must be tested with out the mag catch.
Ar 15 is not readily convertible 2 full auto. Hawaii state does not define readily convertible. The federal government has and according to them and AR-15 without the hole for the full auto peice not readily convertible.
Did you ask about accepted forms of welding? Like what to do if one has a polymer mag
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Perhaps you would like to point me to documentation where anything and everything ever denied by HPD is compiled? I gave an option to consider. I didn't make any promises of legality.
Your trolling is both rude and unnessary. How about you keep you mouth shut if you have nothing constructive to add.
ooh...
good one, mr pot...
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:popcorn:
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All this discussion about AR pistols and all I want is a Krinkov SBR.... :geekdanc:
Now THAT is something I wish HRA would start lobbying to overturn - restrictions on SBRs and suppressors. If the states of Washington and Minnesota can legalize those items, despite having Democratically controlled legislatures, on non-party lines votes, then maybe we can here? All it takes is some effort, and last I checked all of the lobbying efforts has been to hold the line and/or loosen CCW restrictions...
:stopjack:
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Both me and the officer behind the counter tried to reach out to the local atf office. When I got ahold of the atf agent he said he had no clue what the law was on 80% lowers and he said to email them and wait for there correspondence.
I don't blame hpd for this they have a shitty extra responsible that's been piled on them.... registration of firearms should not occur and it should not be hpd reasonably. Police are here to maintain rule of law not Cipher through poorly written laws. All this does is take away from there ability to properly police public areas and respond to calls from private areas. This is obscene on how much extra crap is thrown at them. I've never had an experience where I felt like HPD was abusing their Authority. Not saying that that doesn't happen but it would be a very rare Rogue occurrence.
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Both me and the officer behind the counter tried to reach out to the local atf office. When I got ahold of the atf agent he said he had no clue what the law was on 80% lowers and he said to email them and wait for there correspondence.
I don't blame hpd for this they have a shitty extra responsible that's been piled on them.... registration of firearms should not occur and it should not be hpd reasonably. Police are here to maintain rule of law not Cipher through poorly written laws. All this does is take away from there ability to properly police public areas and respond to calls from private areas. This is obscene on how much extra crap is thrown at them. I've never had an experience where I felt like HPD was abusing their Authority. Not saying that that doesn't happen but it would be a very rare Rogue occurrence.
HPD is the one that lobbied for the registration of firearms and continues to lobby for more registration requirements. They are the ones that asked for rapback BLAME THEM FOR ALL OF THIS.
I have had the experience where they abused their authority (ended up ina federal lawsuit which they lost) and so have many others. And by them telling you to get a letter from the ATF, That is them abusing their authority. the point of your question (requiring you to weld a magazine in place is because they are abusing there authority. HPD should not be dealing with firearms because they dont believe you should own any and want to m ake it as hard as possible for you to do so.
Simple demonstration - Ask them who defined what a detachable magazine is. We know the awnser is not them or the AG. so who did ? The guy at the counter ? the sergeant ? the major ? the chief ? You will never get an answer from them.
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I don't understand why you couldn't just insert the magazine then make a large plug in place of the release button then plug weld it in place. The mag will not be able to drop free unless you drill out the plug, that would be the same as pin and welding a muzzle device on the barrel. It would be just as difficult to remove an aluminum welded mag.
HPD makes up there own rules, knowing most people don't have the time, funds, or patience to challenge their illegal rulings.
Sir I bow to you!
"makes up there( their) own rules, knowing most people don't have the time, funds, or patience to challenge their illegal rulings."
You have just succinctly stated the entire operating position of the entire Governments of all of Hawaii and all Americans!
You have figured out what a large percentage of the population has not!
I salute you!
Molon Labe!
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Sir I bow to you!
"makes up there( their) own rules, knowing most people don't have the time, funds, or patience to challenge their illegal rulings."
You have just succinctly stated the entire operating position of the entire Governments of all of Hawaii and all Americans!
You have figured out what a large percentage of the population has not!
I salute you!
Molon Labe!
Tanks! :shaka: :shaka: O0
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Sent a clarification e-mail to the AG's office:
Has the Attorney Generals office ever provided to the Honolulu Police department a definition of a "Detachable Magazine" In deference to HRS 134-1. If so what was that definition ?
and got this reply:
Not to my knowledge or that I’m aware of.
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No JB Weld had a few got rejected. And the guys had to weld it up.
I brought in 4 lowers with the mags already welded in and they rejected them. They said I had to bring them in stripped first and then register it and then welded in. Of course I complained. Got me nowhere.
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No JB Weld had a few got rejected. And the guys had to weld it up.
I brought in 4 lowers with the mags already welded in and they rejected them. They said I had to bring them in stripped first and then register it and then welded in. Of course I complained. Got me nowhere.
Already welded in got rejected? WTF?
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No JB Weld had a few got rejected. And the guys had to weld it up.
I brought in 4 lowers with the mags already welded in and they rejected them. They said I had to bring them in stripped first and then register it and then welded in. Of course I complained. Got me nowhere.
Meanwhile, Mr. Criminal Crumb doesn't bother with all that....
so these laws are supposed to stop criminals...what about handcuffs?
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/33045702/police-video-shows-nevada-murder-suspect-break-cuffs-escape (http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/33045702/police-video-shows-nevada-murder-suspect-break-cuffs-escape)
How about passing a law that makes it a felony to break out of handcuffs.... :thumbsup:
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Did you guys ask this guy?
http://khon2.com/2016/09/08/state-official-arrested-for-dui/ (http://khon2.com/2016/09/08/state-official-arrested-for-dui/)
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Both me and the officer behind the counter tried to reach out to the local atf office. When I got ahold of the atf agent he said he had no clue what the law was on 80% lowers and he said to email them and wait for there correspondence.
I don't blame hpd for this they have a shitty extra responsible that's been piled on them.... registration of firearms should not occur and it should not be hpd reasonably. Police are here to maintain rule of law not Cipher through poorly written laws. All this does is take away from there ability to properly police public areas and respond to calls from private areas. This is obscene on how much extra crap is thrown at them. I've never had an experience where I felt like HPD was abusing their Authority. Not saying that that doesn't happen but it would be a very rare Rogue occurrence.
They do get put in a difficult position. Laws are rarely ever written that completely eliminate gray areas. Police are then left to make decisions on application of these laws. This exists everwhere including traffic laws, domestic violence, firearms, etc. At a certain point some officer has to make a decision when presented with a situation that doesn't fit neatly into the legal wording.
My personal belief is that if it is unclear then they should tread lightly. Better to risk not arresting when you should than arresting when you shouldn't.
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They do get put in a difficult position. Laws are rarely ever written that completely eliminate gray areas. Police are then left to make decisions on application of these laws. This exists everwhere including traffic laws, domestic violence, firearms, etc. At a certain point some officer has to make a decision when presented with a situation that doesn't fit neatly into the legal wording.
My personal belief is that if it is unclear then they should tread lightly. Better to risk not arresting when you should than arresting when you shouldn't.
Who said anything about arrests? Arrest for what charge?
This thread is about AR pistol registration ... plain and simple. Nobody is talking about being arrested here except you. :wtf:
:stopjack:
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They do get put in a difficult position. Laws are rarely ever written that completely eliminate gray areas. Police are then left to make decisions on application of these laws. This exists everwhere including traffic laws, domestic violence, firearms, etc. At a certain point some officer has to make a decision when presented with a situation that doesn't fit neatly into the legal wording.
My personal belief is that if it is unclear then they should tread lightly. Better to risk not arresting when you should than arresting when you shouldn't.
I don't believe it is an officer's job to make decisions on the application of laws. It is their duty to get clarification if the law is sufficiently unclear as to make a reasonable decision when there is a question.
Seems to me both parties (HPD AND AG) are blocking to further an agenda. Which is very unethical.
http://www.honolulupd.org/department/index.php
Look under the mission tab...
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Who said anything about arrests? Arrest for what charge?
This thread is about AR pistol registration ... plain and simple. Nobody is talking about being arrested here except you. :wtf:
:stopjack:
Talking about a general philosophy of enforcing law. I'm not talking about anyone actually being arrested.
As it specifically relates to this topic, the application of this philosophy would mean that if the police are unsure of how to apply a firearm statute to the legality of a particular firearm then they should apply a conservative. Therefore in the question of what constitutes welding a magazine they should accept any form of permanently attaching a magazine rather than over interpreting it To mean a very narrow definition.
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Talking about a general philosophy of enforcing law. I'm not talking about anyone actually being arrested.
As it specifically relates to this topic, the application of this philosophy would mean that if the police are unsure of how to apply a firearm statute to the legality of a particular firearm then they should apply a conservative. Therefore in the question of what constitutes welding a magazine they should accept any form of permanently attaching a magazine rather than over interpreting it To mean a very narrow definition.
What they should need to do is get a legal definition from the state attorney so that they can give a fair and consistent implementation of the law.
Officers do not interpret law, they enforce the law. It is not up to them to make legal precedence.
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I don't believe it is an officer's job to make decisions on the application of laws. It is their duty to get clarification if the law is sufficiently unclear as to make a reasonable decision when there is a question.
Seems to me both parties (HPD AND AG) are blocking to further an agenda. Which is very unethical.
http://www.honolulupd.org/department/index.php
Look under the mission tab...
Agreed but you cannot get an answer on every possible law, at least not out in the field. Sooner or later a cop has to make a judgement call. Something like a firearm is an exception I suppose because they do have time to ask the AG for clarification.
But I was touching an overall philosophy I think cops should have. If the law doesn't outlaw a firearm clearly then cops shouldn't stretch it to cover something in a grey area.
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What they should need to do is get a legal definition from the state attorney so that they can give a fair and consistent implementation of the law.
Officers do not interpret law, they enforce the law. It is not up to them to make legal precedence.
We all know that in most cases where they believe they are correct, you won't get that interpretation until you file a lawsuit (or are arraigned!) and a judge makes the final call. Then you have case law to use for interpretation at least as far as the specific facts fit new cases.
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the auto body trade uses structural adhesives for repairs on plastic and fiberglass. This isn't like your jb weld, it's adhesives designed for structural plastic repair. If applied correctly it would not be removable without destroying the lower or magazine. Would bonding a polymer magazine with a polymer lower with this structural adhesive be acceptable in the eyes of HPD?
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the auto body trade uses structural adhesives for repairs on plastic and fiberglass. This isn't like your jb weld, it's adhesives designed for structural plastic repair. If applied correctly it would not be removable without destroying the lower or magazine. Would bonding a polymer magazine with a polymer lower with this structural adhesive be acceptable in the eyes of HPD?
You would think/hope so but only way is to ask.
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If i have a registered lower already, just need to weld the mag and take it back right? Does HPD accept aluminum welding done with a brazing rod?
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If i have a registered lower already, just need to weld the mag and take it back right? Does HPD accept aluminum welding done with a brazing rod?
If you have a registered lower ( Registered as a pistol) you dont have to take it in at all. You only need to register a firearm one time.
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They will not let you register a lower as a pistol without the magazine permanently attached. If it is already registered I don't believe they will re-register as a pistol.
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Could be wrong. I don't remember. Got to look up those previous threads..
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They will not let you register a lower as a pistol without the magazine permanently attached. If it is already registered I don't believe they will re-register as a pistol.
They will let you register the lower as a pistol if you tell them it is for a pump action pistol. Just don't let them catch you with it attached to a semi-automatic short upper unless you have welded it. Since you only have to register it once, then if you register it as a pump action pistol lower and then turn it into a semi-pistol with a welded magazine then you aren't going to get the flack at the window about whether your magazine is welded properly.
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They will not let you register a lower as a pistol without the magazine permanently attached. If it is already registered I don't believe they will re-register as a pistol.
A rifle can not be re-registered as a pistol (this would make it an SBR) an AR pistol must be built on a pistol lower either from a manufacturer OR from an 80% lower.
HPD does not get to decide if you can or cant register a firearm, their job is to verify serial numbers and check to see if it is legally compliant at the time. a striped lower has no action or barrel so would be impossible for hem to class an an assault pistol. They have no choice but to register it. A lot of times they tell people shit because they dont know different and people in Hawaii are usually happy to go along with it.
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They will not let you register a lower as a pistol without the magazine permanently attached. If it is already registered I don't believe they will re-register as a pistol.
I read above that you have the register before you do the modifications. Its currently registered as a regular lower.
A rifle can not be re-registered as a pistol (this would make it an SBR) an AR pistol must be built on a pistol lower either from a manufacturer OR from an 80% lower.
HPD does not get to decide if you can or cant register a firearm, their job is to verify serial numbers and check to see if it is legally compliant at the time. a striped lower has no action or barrel so would be impossible for hem to class an an assault pistol. They have no choice but to register it. A lot of times they tell people shit because they dont know different and people in Hawaii are usually happy to go along with it.
Its was registered whatever the default option is for a stripped lower.
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Receiver and frames are not Rifle, Shotguns , nor handguns. They should be transferred and registered as Firearms.
Here is the letter anyone can take to HPD !!! They are in the wrong.
Straight from the files at ATF below: (2 pages)
https://www.atf.gov/file/60686/download (https://www.atf.gov/file/60686/download)
(https://www.atf.gov/file/60686/download)
https://www.atf.gov/file/60686/download (https://www.atf.gov/file/60686/download)
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Receiver and frames are not Rifle, Shotguns , nor handguns. They should be transferred and registered as Firearms.
Here is the letter anyone can take to HPD !!! They are in the wrong.
Straight from the files at ATF below: (2 pages)
Hawaii does not have an option to register a receiver, we have 2 types of firearms, Pistol if its barrel is under 16 inchs and long gun/shotgun which is a barrel 16 inchs or more.
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I read above that you have the register before you do the modifications. Its currently registered as a regular lower.
Its was registered whatever the default option is for a stripped lower.
Look at your registration it will say if its a rifle or pistol. If its a rifle, you can not make it into a pistol.
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As per federal law the receiver is not a rifle or a pistol, but a firearm. Per Hawaii, as stated by London, it can only be one or the other. If that is correct and legal, don't know. I think I heard that the FFL that you receive the lower from can specify if it is a pistol or a rifle lower before you register it.... Something like that. Try talking to a FFL about that.
Sorry, I have never wanted to build a AR pistol, and never researched it, just trying to help with what I remember off of the forum and hanging around the LGS.
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https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=13346.0
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https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=13347.0