2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Firearms and Accessories => Topic started by: drck1000 on September 06, 2016, 08:46:26 AM
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What's the largest gun you would consider for concealed carry? Assume warm weather attire. (Needed to clarify that for another forum that I posted this topic where many have a "real" winter to prepare for. ;D )
Most of my handguns are full size or even slightly bigger in the case of my Glock 34 for competition. My PPQ 4" is the smallest handgun that I own. Even then, it's only slightly smaller than my Glock 17s. I have a H&K Compact 40c, but that's about the last handgun that I shoot these days.
I've carried my 17 concealed in Raven and G-Code INCOG holsters. It's fine, but that was mostly in training sessions or when I could on the mainland. I've never done daily carry with my 17 for long periods of time. I'm wondering if the 17 is a bit too big for concealed carry. Hoping that one day it's allowed on a wider basis here. When I did carry the 17, it was during cooler months and at minimum, I was wearing a light jacket.
Started thinking of this as I'm considering picking up a Glock 19 or maybe even a Shield. I'll need to go through the permit process for my CZ and PPQ anyways, so would be a good time to add another in the process. Have about a week before I apply for the permit and can pick up a 19.
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For me, I think weight is equally important to size. Maybe more important.
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For me, I think weight is equally important to size. Maybe more important.
That was something that came up in the thread that I posted on another forum. I've had both the 17 and 34 in holsters a lot for both competition and training. I had a friend's CZ in an OWB holster last weekend and I noticed the difference in weight. Not that the 17 or 34 is heavy at all, but the CZ was significantly heavier. However, those holsters are offset from my waist a good amount. The RCS and INCOG keep them quite a bit closer to my body than those OWB holsters, especially the ones that I have with G-Code attachments that have both drop and offset.
The 19 would be lighter than the 17, but only ever so slightly. The Shield is about 6 oz lighter than the 17. Between those guns, I consider them about the same.
Speaking of weight, many people choose to carry compact revolvers in 38 SPL. I thought those guns would be heavy, but there are J-frames that are lighter than the Shield. Those are 5 round capacity though, but I was surprised that they are pretty light.
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Choices are going to rely on your preferred caliber and what you consider to be a minimum capacity magazine.
9mm with at least 10+1 capacity would allow a G26, Sig P320 9mm in Subcompact, and KEL-TEC P-11.
Your body size/shape also factors in. A larger person can conceal larger frame weapons, of course.
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Compact revolvers can be made very light with titanium.
For typical everyday Hawaii dress or hot mainland climates: t-shirt, shorts, and slippers, I found it very difficult to wear a G17 without it printing. The grip is too long and thick so it sticks out like a sore thumb. I went for the smallest and lightest gun, the Glock 43 single stack 9mm which is a big difference. A Glock 27 would work also, but the 43 would maximize the flexibility in what I wear as I can tuck in a dress shirt and still have the gun concealed.
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IMHO.
I agree with zippz. In Hawaii' s climate and typical dress, a subcompact would be the easiest and most comfortable to CCW. Limited magazine capacity is an issue with tiny subcompacts though.
Little light weight pistols or revolvers can be a bear to shoot accurately and comfortably though. and that should be a consideration too.
I choose a Kahr CM9. It is tiny, lightweight, and reasonably comfortable to shoot. It can easily disappear in a pocket holster or a IWB. 6+1 in a flush mag and available 7 and 8 rounders for backup mags.
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Choices are going to rely on your preferred caliber and what you consider to be a minimum capacity magazine.
9mm with at least 10+1 capacity would allow a G26, Sig P320 9mm in Subcompact, and KEL-TEC P-11.
Your body size/shape also factors in. A larger person can conceal larger frame weapons, of course.
9 mm for me. Minimum mag capacity? I'd prefer the 10 (or more if standard capacity mags return), but 6+1 or 7+1 would be ok.
Body size/shape? Not skinny. :(
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Compact revolvers can be made very light with titanium.
For typical everyday Hawaii dress or hot mainland climates: t-shirt, shorts, and slippers, I found it very difficult to wear a G17 without it printing. The grip is too long and thick so it sticks out like a sore thumb. I went for the smallest and lightest gun, the Glock 43 single stack 9mm which is a big difference. A Glock 27 would work also, but the 43 would maximize the flexibility in what I wear as I can tuck in a dress shirt and still have the gun concealed.
Yeah. Those airweights, or whatever you call them, are pretty darn light. I was just surprised at how light the steel framed compact revolvers were.
The 17 with INCOG is "ok" for me. The grip does print a little at certain angles and I would think that a 19 would be pretty close. I've considered the 43 and the 26. I like that I can shoot either the 26 and 19 with my 17 mags. Not really for carry considerations, just that I already have a lot of 17 mags on hand.
I've shot both the Shield and the 43 and my preference so far is the Shield, though I would be happy with either.
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IMHO.
I agree with zippz. In Hawaii' s climate and typical dress, a subcompact would be the easiest and most comfortable to CCW. Limited magazine capacity is an issue with tiny subcompacts though.
Little light weight pistols or revolvers can be a bear to shoot accurately and comfortably though. and that should be a consideration too.
I choose a Kahr CM9. It is tiny, lightweight, and reasonably comfortable to shoot. It can easily disappear in a pocket holster or a IWB. 6+1 in a flush mag and available 7 and 8 rounders for backup mags.
I've also found that with subcompacts and the mag extensions, I have to really watch when I load the mags. If I'm not careful, they always seem to pinch that pad at my palm by the pinkie knuckle. >:(
The shootability of compact guns is one of the reasons why I don't shoot my H&K USP Compact that much. It was my first gun and I used to carry it when I lived in WA. That said, there are much better guns in my collection now. Or at least that I shoot better.
Don't you have a compacty CZ or two, or three? I was watching a Military Arms video and that guy seems to be a can of CZ for carry. It think the P-01 or something like that.
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One of my best friends is an LEO in Texas and he'll occasionally carry a 17 or a 19 in a fanny pack. I believe it's specifically designed for use as a holster. Not sure I would go that route, but I've heard that it's pretty common.
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I've also found that with subcompacts and the mag extensions, I have to really watch when I load the mags. If I'm not careful, they always seem to pinch that pad at my palm by the pinkie knuckle. >:(
The shootability of compact guns is one of the reasons why I don't shoot my H&K USP Compact that much. It was my first gun and I used to carry it when I lived in WA. That said, there are much better guns in my collection now. Or at least that I shoot better.
Don't you have a compacty CZ or two, or three? I was watching a Military Arms video and that guy seems to be a can of CZ for carry. It think the P-01 or something like that.
I have a CZ customs PROTEK, which is a compact. It shoots very well. I shoot it as well as my full size CZ.
It is about the same size as a 19, however it is heavier. With a good belt and holster it can be easily conceal IWB with the right clothing choice. With the added weight it probably won't be as comfort as a lighter gun. But in my eyes shootability trumps comfort. So if we did have CCW here I would opt for the CZ compact when I could dress for that, otherwise I'd run the Kahr.
Fanny pack is great too. And comfortable. The CZ compact is easily carried in a purpose built fanny pack I have. One must be aware and keep track of the bag, and not put it down or forget it somewhere.
I usually use it cross the shoulder, bandoleer style, vice around the waist.
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About 28 years daily, many firearm types. For the last 8 years or so, it is the Glock 19 everywhere, even the mainland. Size, weight, capacity, caliber. There are other options, but this does it all for me in arguably the best overall package available.
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Open Carry Uzi with a shoulder rig. 32rd mags x 3
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u666/suka5168/IMG_2308_zpsro8i184c.jpg) (http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/suka5168/media/IMG_2308_zpsro8i184c.jpg.html)
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I carried my Glock 19 with 15 Rd mag everyday for a week in Las Vegas this past June wearing just a T shirt to conceal it and it didn't print. I didn't notice the weight either. A lot depends on the holster as well. I used a FusionPac IWB holster.
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Back on the mainland I never carried anything bigger than my CZ P01. I quit carrying it because of the size and weight, and mostly rotated between a diamondback DB380 and a Beretta 21a. I did carry a charter arms 38 for a while, but quit because of its weight and it's failure to eject reliably. I always wanted to try out a Glock 26 and 43, or a keltec pf9 as they seem like they'd have been good for how I carried in both summer and winter. I guess I gravitate towards smaller guns, even for winter carry. If I were ever able to carry in hawaii I'd get the Glock 43. My db380 seemed to have troubles in hot weather, and I hated buying 380 ammo.
As far as big guns I don't have a lot of personal experience. My cousin carries a full size Beretta 92 year round but admits he wants something smaller. I have a friend who carries a ruger P90 with no problems, but he's got 6"and 80lbs on me.
My brother in law carries a Beretta px4, grandma carries a ruger mk1 in a purse, dad a 3" Taurus 357 in a toolbag, 4 other family members pcket-carry NAA mini revolvers :wacko:, and my little brother carries a Jennings 9mm but acts like it's a custom kimber :rofl:. Safest family reunions in town.
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If you like the Shield, the M&P 9c is a great choice.
It's smaller, more ergonomic and prints less than a Glock 19, and still has a 12+1 capacity.
It's almost exactly the same size as a Glock 26 but with a greater magazine capacity.
You also have the option of carrying a full size M&P9 (17+1) extra mag.
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I have a CZ customs PROTEK, which is a compact. It shoots very well. I shoot it as well as my full size CZ.
It is about the same size as a 19, however it is heavier. With a good belt and holster it can be easily conceal IWB with the right clothing choice. With the added weight it probably won't be as comfort as a lighter gun. But in my eyes shootability trumps comfort. So if we did have CCW here I would opt for the CZ compact when I could dress for that, otherwise I'd run the Kahr.
Fanny pack is great too. And comfortable. The CZ compact is easily carried in a purpose built fanny pack I have. One must be aware and keep track of the bag, and not put it down or forget it somewhere.
I usually use it cross the shoulder, bandoleer style, vice around the waist.
Yeah, I hear that. You'd have to be confident with the shootability of the selected gun for sure. I see all sorts of different guns people say that they carry and sometimes wonder if the concealing aspect would end up countering function. I saw one guy's gun that has a pocket clip so that it would ride a certain way in a pants pocket. But the clip was a position where is seemed to mess up his grip. He even mentioned that it made his grip uncomfortable.
I haven't shot a Kahr in a while. Like since late 1990s. The one that I did shoot, I recall the DA trigger being quite heavy.
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About 28 years daily, many firearm types. For the last 8 years or so, it is the Glock 19 everywhere, even the mainland. Size, weight, capacity, caliber. There are other options, but this does it all for me in arguably the best overall package available.
What would be your "close second" choice?
I agree that the 19 is probably the best all-around package. Just that it's so close to the 17 that I'm wondering if something that's a little bit more different is worth a try.
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Open Carry Uzi with a shoulder rig. 32rd mags x 3
You sure 96 rounds would be enough? :P
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I carried my Glock 19 with 15 Rd mag everyday for a week in Las Vegas this past June wearing just a T shirt to conceal it and it didn't print. I didn't notice the weight either. A lot depends on the holster as well. I used a FusionPac IWB holster.
The capability to utilize the standard capacity mags would be a definitely plus for the 19, but alas, no bueno here.
Where do you position your IWB? 3 o'clock?
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You sure 96 rounds would be enough? :P
4 short of 100 :shaka:
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Back on the mainland I never carried anything bigger than my CZ P01. I quit carrying it because of the size and weight, and mostly rotated between a diamondback DB380 and a Beretta 21a. I did carry a charter arms 38 for a while, but quit because of its weight and it's failure to eject reliably. I always wanted to try out a Glock 26 and 43, or a keltec pf9 as they seem like they'd have been good for how I carried in both summer and winter. I guess I gravitate towards smaller guns, even for winter carry. If I were ever able to carry in hawaii I'd get the Glock 43. My db380 seemed to have troubles in hot weather, and I hated buying 380 ammo.
As far as big guns I don't have a lot of personal experience. My cousin carries a full size Beretta 92 year round but admits he wants something smaller. I have a friend who carries a ruger P90 with no problems, but he's got 6"and 80lbs on me.
My brother in law carries a Beretta px4, grandma carries a ruger mk1 in a purse, dad a 3" Taurus 357 in a toolbag, 4 other family members pcket-carry NAA mini revolvers :wacko:, and my little brother carries a Jennings 9mm but acts like it's a custom kimber :rofl:. Safest family reunions in town.
Beretta 92s are pretty big guns. When I was looking at buying my first handgun, the Beretta Cougar was on my interest list for a while.
Have you shot the 43? I've shot it in a couple of different configurations and while I think it's a nice gun, I tended to gravitate to the Shield. My friend who owns one was having all sorts of trouble with his grip affecting the slide catch. For me, the slide catch is in a "just right" position where I can reach it when I need to, but my grip doesn't affect it. With the 43, the slide stop is closer. While I didn't have any malfunctions, I could see how it could happen.
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If you like the Shield, the M&P 9c is a great choice.
It's smaller, more ergonomic and prints less than a Glock 19, and still has a 12+1 capacity.
It's almost exactly the same size as a Glock 26 but with a greater magazine capacity.
You also have the option of carrying a full size M&P9 (17+1) extra mag.
Never considered the M&P9c. Part of the reason I am considering this "added" gun is that I already have to go through the permit process for my CZ and I can get a good deal on the Shield and 19. I think I could get a good deal on a M&P9c if they have one in stock. I'd have to check.
But then, if I did end up with the M&P9c, I'd be tempted to get the full size in the future. :oops:
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4 short of 100 :shaka:
Well, you'd need something to balance out the eight of the uzi and first mag on your right side. ;D
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Yeah, I hear that. You'd have to be confident with the shootability of the selected gun for sure. I see all sorts of different guns people say that they carry and sometimes wonder if the concealing aspect would end up countering function. I saw one guy's gun that has a pocket clip so that it would ride a certain way in a pants pocket. But the clip was a position where is seemed to mess up his grip. He even mentioned that it made his grip uncomfortable.
I haven't shot a Kahr in a while. Like since late 1990s. The one that I did shoot, I recall the DA trigger being quite heavy.
Maybe they changed something in the trigger. Mine is a smooth DA pull. I don't have a trigger scale but it must be around 6 to 7 lbs. It does not feel overly heavy and it is very easy to make reasonable hits as good as I can shoot it. I am not the best pistol shot but I can keep rounds on a 8.5x11" at 25 yards.
The only thing I really don't like about it is the checkering on the front strap. It is really deep and seems to get painful when shooting for practice. But that is after shooting 150-200 rounds lol...
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Maybe they changed something in the trigger. Mine is a smooth DA pull. I don't have a trigger scale but it must be around 6 to 7 lbs. It does not feel overly heavy and it is very easy to make reasonable hits as good as I can shoot it. I am not the best pistol shot but I can keep rounds on a 8.5x11" at 25 yards.
The only thing I really don't like about it is the checkering on the front strap. It is really deep and seems to get painful when shooting for practice. But that is after shooting 150-200 rounds lol...
I didn't have a gauge/scale, but I would've guessed the pull was in the 8-10 lb range, maybe even a touch more.
I actually like checkering on guns with metal grips, like 1911s. My hands can get sweaty and it helps keep a good grip. I'm used to the more aggressive texture of the gen 4 Glocks and even the RTF. That said, my buddy has a SA Trophy Match that I swear the G10 grip and checkering drew blood!
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I would think the aggressive checkering is important for a CCW gun if there is a fight for the gun. If you had to draw a gun to use it, your attacker will most likely be very close to you and may attempt to grab the gun away. Or they may take you down where it's a wrestling match on the ground then the gun comes into play and you're both fighting for it. Compact guns would be difficult to retain because of their small grips. For CCW, it's not only about how the gun shoots.
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I would think the aggressive checkering is important for a CCW gun if there is a fight for the gun. If you had to draw a gun to use it, your attacker will most likely be very close to you and may attempt to grab the gun away. Or they may take you down where it's a wrestling match on the ground then the gun comes into play and you're both fighting for it. Compact guns would be difficult to retain because of their small grips. For CCW, it's not only about how the gun shoots.
Very true. I hadn't thought about that perspective. Thanks!
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Open Carry Uzi with a shoulder rig. 32rd mags x 3
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u666/suka5168/IMG_2308_zpsro8i184c.jpg) (http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/suka5168/media/IMG_2308_zpsro8i184c.jpg.html)
Nice!!!
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I would think the aggressive checkering is important for a CCW gun if there is a fight for the gun. If you had to draw a gun to use it, your attacker will most likely be very close to you and may attempt to grab the gun away. Or they may take you down where it's a wrestling match on the ground then the gun comes into play and you're both fighting for it. Compact guns would be difficult to retain because of their small grips. For CCW, it's not only about how the gun shoots.
Very true. I hadn't thought about that perspective. Thanks!
Yup. Proximity of the attacker is another that many don't consider. I see so many gun disarm videos where they person disarms the attacker (training situation) and promptly does a normal gun draw presentation with full extension back on the person they took the gun from. Well, if you took my gun, imma gonna try to get it back.
As mentioned above, I generally like the more texture than say the smoother texture of M&Ps (stippling not withstanding). That said, with CC, you have to factor many things, including clothing and how you will carry. I can tell you first hand that the RTF finish doesn't agree with my love handles. >:( Round is a shape ok! Haha. Anyways, can mitigate by having the added tab on the holster or wearing an undershirt, but just something that you just have to experience to know what works and what might not work as well.
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Have you shot the 43? I've shot it in a couple of different configurations and while I think it's a nice gun, I tended to gravitate to the Shield. My friend who owns one was having all sorts of trouble with his grip affecting the slide catch. For me, the slide catch is in a "just right" position where I can reach it when I need to, but my grip doesn't affect it. With the 43, the slide stop is closer. While I didn't have any malfunctions, I could see how it could happen.
No, I've never shot it or a shield. I wouldn't mind test driving either one of them if I ever get the chance though. I'll admit I only recently started warming up to polymer guns.
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I would use a glock 19 IWB appendix. This is after shooting a glock 43, which I thought would be ideal for ccw. After dry firing with it, it's just too small. In a high stress situation I would fumble trying to draw that small hand gun. I've also tried with a hk vp9 but the grip is long.
So after dry firing all 3 and carrying them around, I really like the glock 19 for ccw.
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No, I've never shot it or a shield. I wouldn't mind test driving either one of them if I ever get the chance though. I'll admit I only recently started warming up to polymer guns.
Yeah. Hawaii doesn't have great opportunities to try before you buy. There are places where you can rent, but the selection isn't as wide as many gun ranges on the mainland. I'm lucky to have a bunch of shooter friends who like diversity in their collection. :D
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I would use a glock 19 IWB appendix. This is after shooting a glock 43, which I thought would be ideal for ccw. After dry firing with it, it's just too small. In a high stress situation I would fumble trying to draw that small hand gun. I've also tried with a hk vp9 but the grip is long.
So after dry firing all 3 and carrying them around, I really like the glock 19 for ccw.
I was talking guns with a buddy last night and the differences between compacts (like 19) and subcompacts (like Shield, 43, etc) can be surprising, especially after having a chance to shoot them. Just one of those thing where you never quite know how it will work out for you until you try them out. My buddy is considering a 43 or a Bodyguard, but I am trying to get him to try at least the 43 before buying the either that or the Bodyguard. He already has a 19 as well.
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Yeah. Hawaii doesn't have great opportunities to try before you buy. There are places where you can rent, but the selection isn't as wide as many gun ranges on the mainland. I'm lucky to have a bunch of shooter friends who like diversity in their collection. :D
Best thing to do is go on group shoots, like HDF, HRA, Meetup, and ask the group if they can bring out their CCW guns and everyone can try out each others stuff. That's what we do for our meetup group. Though most people don't bring out their compact guns unless asked, so you have to announce it first.
Shooting compacts does take a lot of extra training to draw and operate. Accuracy is important, however you would be shooting at close ranges, attempting to get away, or buying time for others to get away.
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Best thing to do is go on group shoots, like HDF, HRA, Meetup, and ask the group if they can bring out their CCW guns and everyone can try out each others stuff. That's what we do for our meetup group. Though most people don't bring out their compact guns unless asked, so you have to announce it first.
Shooting compacts does take a lot of extra training to draw and operate. Accuracy is important, however you would be shooting at close ranges, attempting to get away, or buying time for others to get away.
:thumbsup:
Yeah. I regularly attend HRA Fun shoots and have been meaning to get back into HDF. Many participants are happy to let you try out their firearms, some even seek others out to try out their new guns. I'm usually not one to deny them of that opportunity ;D
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What would be your "close second" choice?
I agree that the 19 is probably the best all-around package. Just that it's so close to the 17 that I'm wondering if something that's a little bit more different is worth a try.
The Glock 26/27 or Glock 17 would be my next choices and that would be dependent on my attire and mode of carry, but I primarily carry AIWB, but do at times hip carry, ankle carry or man bag carry. I have also carried a full size P226 and 1911's quite a bit.
I carry AIWB and can do well with the 19 and the 17. The 17 needs to ride a bit higher so the muzzle doesn't dig and the 34 is just too long. The 17's grip will print a bit more holster / carry / clothes dependent, so that is a consideration. So yes, the 19 is noticeably more concealable than the 17 again dependent without giving up too much.
I do however find that the 19's grip needs alteration more so than the 17 to fit my hand better. On the plus side is that I do my own customization work on the pistols and I have custom holsters made to fit my needs and the different pistols. I like my AIWB holsters to ride a bit higher, with slight cant to the primary side. I like it wedged or tucked, but not both, prefer the wedge. There are a few companies making these type of holsters commercially now and Frank Proctor released a model nearly identical to how I have mine custom made.
I like Glocks quite a bit and I know a lot of people were screaming for a single stack baby Glock, but I don't like it. I actually prefer the G26/27 and the larger circumference of the double stack small Glock. I am not a fan of the M&P and will not get into that discussion, however I do like the shootability of the Shield over the G43, but I don't prefer any pistol that small as a primary carry unless if a special circumstance dictates something that small. I am also a fan of the Sig Sauer P320 and would consider it in the carry configuration. I am not a fan of the VP9 but it is also a good sized option. There are other steel framed options out there also, like the 229, P07, etc..
This is my G19 and how I like to set it up. Many features have been adopted by Glock on the 17M and may trickle into other models. It took the necessity of meeting features for a contract to make these changes, but they are a long time coming and good improvements to the pistol that many of us have been doing aftermarket for years.
- Remove finger grooves and texture front strap only. 360 texture is too much for the love handles and stock texture on Gen4's are perfect.
- Undercut trigger guard.
- Radius sides of trigger guard, or basically dehorning sharper edges. This makes fingers fit even better on the smaller 19's grip. Greatly reduces Glock knuckle on all models.
- Memory cut underside of trigger guard and textured.
- Texture side flats.
- Change magazine release button.
- Change slide stop lever.
- Flared magwell with grip plug to enhance magazine feeding / insertion.
- Cut on bottom side of front strap to strip mags.
- Aftermarket sights.
- Cleaned up internals.
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/aaa22a_a48d68d863194dcf8753992635d64733.jpg/v1/fill/w_864,h_526,al_c,q_90/aaa22a_a48d68d863194dcf8753992635d64733.jpg)
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The Sig P320 was another gun I was considering, though mostly for the full size version, but also in consideration that it can be reconfigured. I'd have to look at the specs, but I though the Carry version was shorter than the 19, but slightly taller and wider. I've read some good reviews on them, but just haven't had a chance to shoot them. A shooter friend has one, but I just haven't taken him up on his offer to shoot it. I think he has the full size version.
I've tested out the 17 in the INCOG IWB and it sort of pushes up when I sit down, but not too bad. Haven't tried driving with it though.
I only have an M&P 45, but I rarely shoot it. Mostly because the ammo is so damn expensive. The trigger is super heavy and while I've read that it smooths out over time, I see most M&P users going to Apex triggers. Haven't really shot the 9 mm versions at all.
I've shot the VP9 some, but I'd be hesitant with the lever mag release when I'm so used to the "American standard" button mag release. My HK USP Compact has the lever mag release and I find that I have to almost think my way around it, even when shooting it at the target range.
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INCOG in its lowest position is too low for AIWB but it can be adjusted. I don't like the retention especially as it gets used a lot. Yea, also not a fan of the HK mag release among other things. Catch me at the range again and I can let you have some trigger time on the P320. Big difference in how the full size slide feels compared to the smaller versions.
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Sorry off topic.... Surf, what tool did you use to accomplish that texture on the front strap? I was looking at doing something like that.
Thanks!
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I use several different tips depending on the type of texture I am doing. That one in particular is a rounded tip, I think it is called a "flow point" tip and it is a common tip found in the off the shelf kits.
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I use several different tips depending on the type of texture I am doing. That one in particular is a rounded tip, I think it is called a "flow point" tip and it is a common tip found in the off the shelf kits.
Thanks much Surf! :thumbsup: