2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: changemyoil66 on December 12, 2016, 09:39:54 AM
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Got a S&W AR with Mil spec barrel (1/9). And a red dot.
Been using wolf ammo 55gr.
Grouping is either size of a dime or grapefruit. Not consistent.
So what's a realistic grouping for this type of rife? I went on different forums and not sure how legit the answers are. Some say all grouping should be about a dollar coin, others say open hand is acceptable due to not using match ammo, etc...
Figure I'd ask here because we are a closer community and I would get honest answers.
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At 50 yds. 1 to 2 inch would be typical with a stock gun and cheap ammo.
Any more than that would be worrisome.
Check your shooting technique too.
The Bbl shouldn't be touching the sandbag.
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If im hitting anything within 8 inchs im happy lol
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Shoot. That's a pretty good grouping. I've been practicing all my life but the wife says I'm still missing the bowl at times.
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If im hitting anything within 8 inchs im happy lol
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8 inch too boo-koo!
https://youtu.be/WjO94L-02Wc
(Beaucoup)
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Soul brutha
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Modern quality AR's are easily shooting 2 MOA with quality ammo. Crappy ammo and you are still in the 3-4 MOA range. Precision AR set ups are MOA or less rifles now.
Is it an all factory S&W? Which model? What is the red dot and how is it mounted? As oldfart has mentioned be sure that you are not resting the barrel on anything.
Inconsistent groups are usually, but not limited to, shooter, ammo, optic, barrel contact, loose barrel, incorrect chamber cut.
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Modern quality AR's are easily shooting 2 MOA with quality ammo. Crappy ammo and you are still in the 3-4 MOA range. Precision AR set ups are MOA or less rifles now.
Is it an all factory S&W? Which model? What is the red dot and how is it mounted? As oldfart has mentioned be sure that you are not resting the barrel on anything.
Inconsistent groups are usually, but not limited to, shooter, ammo, optic, barrel contact, loose barrel, incorrect chamber cut.
S&W Sport II with a Sig Romeo 5 red dot cowitnessed (no loktite), sight as forward as possible. Handguard was on the sandbag.
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My bet is it's the optic and not the rifle.
Maybe Test it with a reliable scope ?
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I'd be happy to help when I hit the range this weekend. Likely Saturday.
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I'd be happy to help when I hit the range this weekend. Likely Saturday.
I'll keep you posted. Got a company xmas party till 1ish. Thanks for the offer. The RO's were helping, but was limited on time due to the hang glider.
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I'll keep you posted. Got a company xmas party till 1ish. Thanks for the offer. The RO's were helping, but was limited on time due to the hang glider.
Hang Glider? Shooting from a hang glider. Never heard of that before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaC4hrTbwIY
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You've gotten some great feedback so far. I'll add some thoughts (sorry if duplicate as I read through pretty quickly).
For the red dot, try turning the brightness down as far as you can. That will help limit the "bloom" on the dot and give you a finer aiming point. You can also try putting the top of the dot on your POI. That can help minimize your vertical variance. Most of my red dots are 2 MOA, but I've shot with dots in the 4 to even 7ish MOA and that's a large dot at even 50 yards.
Is your hand guard free float? Most of my have freefloated hand guards/rails, so I don't have to pay attention that much on the pressure that I exert on the gun. I have a couple that have standard hand guards and when I zero the gun, I will pay more attention on how I am supporting the gun.
I haven't shot Wolf ammo in a long time, but I don't recall it being particularly quality ammo. No need to buy match ammo, but maybe you can try with some M193.
As mentioned, a magnified optic can help eliminate some variables/doubt in that regard.
I've also come across improperly mounted optic leading to larger grouping than I expected. You can try remounting and making sure everything is secure.
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For your setup and a good shooter, I'd expect 1 to 1.5 inch groups at 50 yards. As said previously, A S&W AR, 55gr FMJ ammo, and red dot sights are suited for speed, price, and adequate precision. Use 5 round shot groups to get a better idea of your precision. 3 round groups allow for too much variability.
I don't know what your shooting experience is, but I'd guess it's shooter error. Rifle shooting involves a lot more than just putting the dot on the target and pressing the trigger. There's the different shooting fundamentals, flinch, follow through, parallax, consistency, barrel break in, etc. To become a proficient shooter requires classes, coaching, and thousands of rounds of practice to get the maximum accuracy out of a rifle.
It could also be the wind. A strong crosswind can shift your impacts by up to 2 inches at 50 yards and create a horizontal oval.
Eyesight could be a factor. I have astigmatism which makes my red dot look more like a blob.
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Things I'm going to try my next visit:
1) Finger on trigger like on a handgun (tip portion, middle). Currently was middle section of finger.
2) Lower brightness on red dot, it was blotchy
3) Pay attention to wind (dirt movement)
4) Go earlier so I have more time. (only had about 30 mins last time)
1st round of shots were about 4 inches from POI to the right 2-3 o'clock and about a 6 MOA group.
2nd round was 4 inches below POI 5-6 o'clock 6 MOA group
3rd round was 1 inch from POI 7 o'clock all shots touching each other
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I learned over the years that naturally resting your trigger finger on the trigger works best for me.
The Army taught me to use the tip. Thats not always true for everyone. Wherever your finger rests to produce a consistent, linear press. When I take up the 1st stage of a trigger I ask myself if it was straight back, if not I reset and go through that process again. I check to see if my finger is resting on that sweet spot that produces that consistent straight press. Makes a great difference in pistol.
I dont subscribe to the thought of a surprising trigger shot. I tell myself that Im in control and Im steady at that point in time. Life is already full of surprises. I want to be in control of the shot.
Anyways thats my half cent. Not a talented shooter like others here but Im a slow deliberate learner. Went public skool das Y.
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Good point Ren. Something I picked up is to try different methods and see what works best. Try different trigger finger placements, grip, cheek welds, pressure, sight picture, body position, etc. Trial and error.
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For me, ammo seems to make a big difference. Through my 1:7 18" barrel, I heard that heavier 223/556 loads (62gr & higher) would yield better results. I get about 3-4 MOA @100yards with 55gr XM193 and most 223/556 off-the-shelf ammo. I'm using a 12X max Leupold riflescope.
When I tried 62gr XM855, I had no idea where the bullet was going as sometimes it wouldn't hit paper when using 8" targets. Again @100yards. Also tried Black Hills 62gr match ammo and was as bit better but I feel that I got the best results with the 55gr ammo. Didn't matter if it was 223 or 556. Will try something heavier like 77gr in the future.
Not the best shooter either but kind of hard when trying to zero a scope with the green tips and you don't know where they're going.
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I have shot my friend's rifle, same as yours. You should be getting better results than that. Barring ammo anomalies and shooter error I do have a suggestion. My friend had a fairly new red dot on his and the sight itself came loose from the base. The base was still tight to the picatinny rail. Only way I figured it out was I tried moving the dot sight to see if it was loose and it turns out it was. Even though the base was still tight to the rail the sight was loose on the base. It didn't move much. Just enough to throw off his previously tight groups. Problem for him is I think the sight is supposed to be permanently mounted to the base. I think it is still under warranty. Kind of a freak thing I know but might be worthwhile checking.
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I have shot my friend's rifle, same as yours. You should be getting better results than that. Barring ammo anomalies and shooter error I do have a suggestion. My friend had a fairly new red dot on his and the sight itself came loose from the base. The base was still tight to the picatinny rail. Only way I figured it out was I tried moving the dot sight to see if it was loose and it turns out it was. Even though the base was still tight to the rail the sight was loose on the base. It didn't move much. Just enough to throw off his previously tight groups. Problem for him is I think the sight is supposed to be permanently mounted to the base. I think it is still under warranty. Kind of a freak thing I know but might be worthwhile checking.
My 1st time shooting out doors (2 weeks ago) with the red dot, it did come loose from the picatinny rail. Didn't have my star wrench, but lucky the RO's had one so I retightened.
So now I shake it left to right before I shoot just to see if I need to apply loktite. So far it hasn't come loose again.
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Something to consider is the effect your zero has on distance. I know that KHSC only goes to 100y and 50y, but with that said, you could hit 50 and push to the 100 with the same zero.
At that range, given applied marksmanship, I would say that 1" to maybe 1.5" groups are good. At 50m, you do not need to make adjustments for wind. It is only at the 200m or more that 5.56 will begin to "drift". There is a video of Travis Haley discussing the differences between zeroing optics, both red dot and iron.
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I use the American Eagle red black box for most of my reference shooting. 55gr 223
Part Number AE223
Most out of the box rifles in the under $1000 range are usually 5-shot group at 1-3" at 100 yards with the reference ammo.
last time I used wolf I think it was 1.75-4" at 100 yards. Very inconsistent.
I normally take apart the upper and check everything and reassemble MY WAY. and when testing the same rifle I get SUB MOA or at least better than 1.25"
This is on the Colt 69xx & Sporters and M&P15 Rifles. I have found a lot of these to have loose barrel nuts and loose barrel to upper receiver play.
Just had a M&P Upper in here where the factory barely tightened the barrel nut. the barrel could be moved from side to side.
M193 ammo normally doesn't pull real tight groupings. 1/4-1/2" difference.
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161214/76a790fc3b6576ecbfbadf459354720b.jpg)
Top is with red dot, bottom is iron sights. All @ 50 yards.
Except the 3 touching the red for the bottom target, that was with red dot. So im not consistant.
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161214/79081a8412d3c061738e49e63aec236b.jpg)
Last 4 shots b4 buzzer went off and had to go home.
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What is the last thing you see before pressing the trigger - the target or the sight (irons or red dot) ?
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What is your level of experience in shooting a rifle for precision? I would say at this point that you should let someone else with good familiarity with an AR and that has good precision shooting skills to shoot the rifle using a quality ammo type when doing so. It really is the easiest and most efficient way to troubleshoot and to be able to immediately eliminate certain variables.
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What is the last thing you see before pressing the trigger - the target or the sight (irons or red dot) ?
Combo of red dot and target in background.
For iron sights, combo of front post and target.
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What is your level of experience in shooting a rifle for precision? I would say at this point that you should let someone else with good familiarity with an AR and that has good precision shooting skills to shoot the rifle using a quality ammo type when doing so. It really is the easiest and most efficient way to troubleshoot and to be able to immediately eliminate certain variables.
Total noob :shake:
That's why I was wondering if for my type of rifle and ammo, is the hits acceptable? I know I'm not going to hit the bulls eye with 1 moa grouping.
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My bet is "user error".
Most rifles are far more accurate than the shooter.
I would suggest two things.
1) Try and sight it in with a higher magnification scope. This will instantly tell you if it's the gun or you.
2) Try different brands and grain weights of ammo.
Typically a 1/9 twist rate will do well with 55 grain loads but even in the 55 grain ammo, you can and will get huge disparity between brand A and brand B or C, etc...
If you tried wolf, try also federal or Winchester or another comparable, high quality brand of ammo.
Also try out 62 grain ammo to see if the change in grain weight works for your rifle.
Understand that every rifle has a favorite ammo. Your rifle might like federal American Eagle 55 grain, while "your friends exact same make and model rifle" likes Wolf gold .223 55 grain.
To me the best part of a new rifle is the research I do to find out what ammo my rifle likes best.
My SCAR 16 for example will easily shoot 1/2 MOA all day with PPU match 75 grain, but I can't get 2 MOA with 55 grain federal 223 on the same rifle.
Good luck, shoot straight, and be safe.
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Combo of red dot and target in background.
For iron sights, combo of front post and target.
We can't focus on 2 things at once. The last thing to focus on is the front sight or red dot right before the gun fires. The reason being is that it is the last reference point to where the gun will shoot at. Think of looking down a straight line with the two end points. Your eye can discern minute details such as movement of the front sight. That distinction and the control of your trigger is what contributes to your call. Your focus should be hard enough to see the fine details of that front sight. The texture, the edge of that post. Where that front sight post goes is where your shot likely went - given the rest of your position is consistent.
I find that as I got older, the harder I needed to focus on that sight.
Here's a tip from the USAMU in regards to what I discussed
http://www.odcmp.org/0907/default.asp?page=USAMU_SIGHTPICTURE (http://www.odcmp.org/0907/default.asp?page=USAMU_SIGHTPICTURE)
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161216/22733c7ecc0e61ef8dcf92de9d25a228.jpg)
Top is with red dot and bottom with irons. 50yrds.
So groupings tightened better around POI. Things i did differently:
1) lowered brightness on red dot
2) used tip of finger on trigger
A) found out i need a bigger handgrip
3) focused on front post/red dot.
4) had cheering support of macsak
Even hit gong from standing position.
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Looking good now. Next you have to do the same unsupported. Keep challenging yourself and moving the goal post back.
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Looking good now. Next you have to do the same unsupported. Keep challenging yourself and moving the goal post back.
Will do! Taking baby steps.
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