2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: dontbealolo on February 08, 2017, 02:33:42 AM
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are 80 percent builds legal? do they need to be registered?
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are 80 percent builds legal? do they need to be registered?
Yes.
Yes.
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Yes. As soon as the drill bit or endmill touches the receiver. Doesn't even matter if it is completely finished. If it has one hole drilled it needs to be registered
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I went thru HPDs site. I could not find anything on 80% home builds and the process for registration. The only thing I found was:
Out of state registrants need to take firearm(s), in person, to the Main Police Station Firearms Unit no later than 5 calendar days from arrival. Out of state registrants are encouraged to arrive at the Firearms Unit no later than 3:00 pm. The out of state registration process can be lengthy. If there is a line, we may not be able to accommodate you. There is no 14-day waiting period for Out-of-State Registration.
Should you follow this?
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I went thru HPDs site. I could not find anything on 80% home builds and the process for registration. The only thing I found was:
Out of state registrants need to take firearm(s), in person, to the Main Police Station Firearms Unit no later than 5 calendar days from arrival. Out of state registrants are encouraged to arrive at the Firearms Unit no later than 3:00 pm. The out of state registration process can be lengthy. If there is a line, we may not be able to accommodate you. There is no 14-day waiting period for Out-of-State Registration.
Should you follow this?
There's this other thing called the Federal Government. They have laws, too. :)
The 80% lower if not completed beyond 80% is not a firearm. Once you complete more than 80%, it's considered a firearm by Federal definition. It's therefore subject to the same federal and state laws as any other AR-15 receiver.
Receiver Blanks
Answers to some common questions specific to receivers known as 80% receivers or unfinished receivers.
https://www.atf.gov/qa-category/receiver-blanks
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There's this other thing called the Federal Government. They have laws, too. :)
The 80% lower if not completed beyond 80% is not a firearm. Once you complete more than 80%, it's considered a firearm by Federal definition. It's therefore subject to the same federal and state laws as any other AR-15 receiver.
Receiver Blanks
Answers to some common questions specific to receivers known as 80% receivers or unfinished receivers.
https://www.atf.gov/qa-category/receiver-blanks
But... Hawaii has their own laws, which include either accepting or rejecting federal laws/rules governing firearms (the Hawaii rule/law could be more restrictive than the federal law, not less so). For instance, there is no federal ban on "assault pistols" nor "handgun magazines of greater than 10 round capacity', nor suppressors, etc. etc. etc. In fact, a local BATFE agent told me, and it appears to possibly be true, that each county police chief has the discretion to interpret whether or not their county will accept or deny various federal rules (see the Hawaii county designation of configurations such as the Mossberg 590, federally legal, as illegal, while Honolulu county may (HPD won't respond to my requests) deem them legal. You can call your local PD and ask them to clarify what their interpretations of the rules or laws are, but we all know that what they say may or may not be accurate.
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...
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But... Hawaii has their own laws, which include either accepting or rejecting federal laws/rules governing firearms (the Hawaii rule/law could be more restrictive than the federal law, not less so). For instance, there is no federal ban on "assault pistols" nor "handgun magazines of greater than 10 round capacity', nor suppressors, etc. etc. etc. In fact, a local BATFE agent told me, and it appears to possibly be true, that each county police chief has the discretion to interpret whether or not their county will accept or deny various federal rules (see the Hawaii county designation of configurations such as the Mossberg 590, federally legal, as illegal, while Honolulu county may (HPD won't respond to my requests) deem them legal. You can call your local PD and ask them to clarify what their interpretations of the rules or laws are, but we all know that what they say may or may not be accurate.
Your sarcasm, while obvious to most on here, will be confusing to others asking for help. The topic is 80% receivers.
Just saying .... :shaka:
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Yes.
Yes.
+1
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Your sarcasm, while obvious to most on here, will be confusing to others asking for help. The topic is 80% receivers.
Just saying .... :shaka:
There wasn't a single phrase or sentence of "sarcasm" or "irony" in my entire comment (and, no, THAT was not sarcasm). The OP asked if he should rely on what he could find (nothing specific) re 80% uppers on the HPD website, or elsewhere. I merely related that there are contradictions between federal and state laws/rules, so relying on someone's comment quoting a federal law could be a mistake. The "most reliable" option would be to get a written opinion from the head of the firearms registration division of the county of residence (because as we all know the AG office will not issue opinions on Hawaii law to the public).
That said, the "safest" option would be to serialize the 80% lower and take it in and register it BEFORE you remove any material and "officially" transform it into a firearm. Take a 16p nail with you in case you're told that it can't be registered as a firearm because it's still "only" an 80% lower, then use the nail to scrape a line on the top of the fire control pocket material that will be removed, and presto! Firearm! [Still no sarcasm... just the facts.]
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Who does engraving in Honolulu?
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Who does engraving in Honolulu?
Check with X-Ring.
Be sure to ask for the "member's discount!" :geekdanc:
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Has anyone gone thru the complete registration process with an 80%? If so, can you explain the steps please?
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Has anyone gone thru the complete registration process with an 80%? If so, can you explain the steps please?
Why anyone would make an 80% and register it is mind blowing to me, you can buy a 100% lower for less and the fit/tolerances will be better.
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Why anyone would make an 80% and register it is mind blowing to me, you can buy a 100% lower for less and the fit/tolerances will be better.
True.... but that still didn't answer my question.
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If I built an 80%er, I wouldn't register it or use it in public. I would keep it hidden as my SHTF backup if confiscation of firearms ever became a reality. Please note, I said IF. Of course I wouldn't build one because I obey the law.
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The whole point with the 80% is you don't need to register it as long as you don't sell it and it's for your personal use
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
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The whole point with the 80% is you don't need to register it as long as you don't sell it and it's for your personal use
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
Of course, that's assuming the state laws don't require registration upon 81% or more completion. In Hawaii, your use or disposition if it is irrelevant. HPD still wants it registered.
This has been a public service announcement to ensure all law-abiding participants here are informed. No one here intends to break any firearms laws.
Queue the GHOST GUN YouTube video ....
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Of course, that's assuming the state laws don't require registration upon 81% or more completion. In Hawaii, your use or disposition if it is irrelevant. HPD still wants it registered.
This has been a public service announcement to ensure all law-abiding participants here are informed. No one here intends to break any firearms laws.
Queue the GHOST GUN YouTube video ....
Can you show in state gun laws where it states this or is it just your interpretation of the law?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
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Can you show in state gun laws where it states this or is it just your interpretation of the law?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
"Firearm" means any weapon, for which the operating force is an explosive, including but not limited to pistols, revolvers, rifles, shotguns, automatic firearms, noxious gas projectors, mortars, bombs, and cannon.
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0001.htm
§134-3 Registration, mandatory, exceptions. (a) Every person arriving in the State who brings or by any other manner causes to be brought into the State a firearm of any description, whether usable or unusable, serviceable or unserviceable, modern or antique, shall register the firearm within five days after arrival of the person or of the firearm, whichever arrives later, with the chief of police of the county of the person's place of business or, if there is no place of business, the person's residence or, if there is neither a place of business nor residence, the person's place of sojourn. A nonresident alien may bring firearms not otherwise prohibited by law into the State for a continuous period not to exceed ninety days; provided that the person meets the registration requirement of this section and the person possesses:
(1) A valid Hawaii hunting license procured under chapter 183D, part II, or a commercial or private shooting preserve permit issued pursuant to section 183D-34;
(2) A written document indicating the person has been invited to the State to shoot on private land; or
(3) Written notification from a firing range or target shooting business indicating that the person will actually engage in target shooting.
The nonresident alien shall be limited to a nontransferable registration of not more than ten firearms for the purpose of the above activities.
Every person registering a firearm under this subsection shall be fingerprinted and photographed by the police department of the county of registration; provided that this requirement shall be waived where fingerprints and photographs are already on file with the police department. The police department shall perform an inquiry on the person by using the International Justice and Public Safety Network, including the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement query, the National Crime Information Center, and the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, pursuant to section 846-2.7 before any determination to register a firearm is made.
(b) Every person who acquires a firearm pursuant to section 134-2 shall register the firearm in the manner prescribed by this section within five days of acquisition. The registration shall be on forms prescribed by the attorney general, which shall be uniform throughout the State, and shall include the following information: name of the manufacturer and importer; model; type of action; caliber or gauge; serial number; and source from which receipt was obtained, including the name and address of the prior registrant. If the firearm has no serial number, the permit number shall be entered in the space provided for the serial number, and the permit number shall be engraved upon the receiver portion of the firearm prior to registration. All registration data that would identify the individual registering the firearm by name or address shall be confidential and shall not be disclosed to anyone, except as may be required:
(1) For processing the registration;
(2) For database management by the Hawaii criminal justice data center;
(3) By a law enforcement agency for the lawful performance of its duties; or
(4) By order of a court.
(c) Dealers licensed under section 134-31 or dealers licensed by the United States Department of Justice shall register firearms pursuant to this section on registration forms prescribed by the attorney general and shall not be required to have the firearms physically inspected by the chief of police at the time of registration.
(d) Registration shall not be required for:
(1) Any device that is designed to fire loose black powder or that is a firearm manufactured before 1899;
(2) Any device not designed to fire or made incapable of being readily restored to a firing condition; or
(3) All unserviceable firearms and destructive devices registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms of the United States Department of Justice pursuant to Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations.
(e) No fee shall be charged for the registration of a firearm under this section, except for a fee chargeable by and payable to the registering county for persons registering a firearm under subsection (a), in an amount equal to the fee charged by the Hawaii criminal justice data center pursuant to section 846-2.7. In the case of a joint registration, the fee provided for in this section may be charged to each person. [L 1988, c 275, pt of §2; am L 1994, c 204, §4; am L 1999, c 217, §2; am L 2007, c 9, §7; am L 2013, c 254, §2; am L 2016, c 108, §3]
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0003.htm
If you bring all the parts in to build a car or motorcycle, do you believe you'll be able to operated it on roads without registering it? Once the receiver meets the definition of firearm, the state's laws apply. It's not my interpretation. It's what everyone on here who has built an 80% lower into a receiver has done after talking to HPD.
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BTW, to avoid having to put the permit number on the receiver, just create whatever Serial Number you like and engrave it. Once it's serialized, that "has no serial number" section no longer applies.
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(d) Registration shall not be required for:
(1) Any device that is designed to fire loose black powder or that is a firearm manufactured before 1899;
CMMG, Inc. AR-15 Muzzle Loading Black Powder Upper Assembly .50 Caliber 20" Barrel Picatinny Rail Black
(https://ii.cheaperthandirt.com/fcgi-bin/iipsrv.fcgi?FIF=/images/cheaperthandirt/source/9-106586_1.tif&wid=480&cvt=jpeg)
Bring the fun of black powder to the modern sporting rifle platform with this specialized upper assembly from CMMG. Just pin onto any AR-15 lower receiver and insert the included Single Shot Sled into the magazine well. Load the barrel with a .50 caliber sabot bullet and up to 100 grains of pelletized black powder. Insert a primed .223/5.56 casing in the action, release the bolt and you're ready to go. The barrel is easily removable for cleaning. Includes ramrod and a sling with ramrod storage.
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CMMG, Inc. AR-15 Muzzle Loading Black Powder Upper Assembly .50 Caliber 20" Barrel Picatinny Rail Black
(https://ii.cheaperthandirt.com/fcgi-bin/iipsrv.fcgi?FIF=/images/cheaperthandirt/source/9-106586_1.tif&wid=480&cvt=jpeg)
Bring the fun of black powder to the modern sporting rifle platform with this specialized upper assembly from CMMG. Just pin onto any AR-15 lower receiver and insert the included Single Shot Sled into the magazine well. Load the barrel with a .50 caliber sabot bullet and up to 100 grains of pelletized black powder. Insert a primed .223/5.56 casing in the action, release the bolt and you're ready to go. The barrel is easily removable for cleaning. Includes ramrod and a sling with ramrod storage.
No longer in production.
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No longer in production.
Damn! So much for putting the fun back in!
:( :( :(
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http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0001.htm
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0003.htm
If you bring all the parts in to build a car or motorcycle, do you believe you'll be able to operated it on roads without registering it? Once the receiver meets the definition of firearm, the state's laws apply. It's not my interpretation. It's what everyone on here who has built an 80% lower into a receiver has done after talking to HPD.
Just taking the law to mean what it literally says.
"Firearm" means any weapon, for which the operating force is an explosive, including but not limited to pistols, revolvers, rifles, shotguns, automatic firearms, noxious gas projectors, mortars, bombs, and cannon.
A weapon is an item designed or modified to cause injury or death. (not defined in Hawaii but this is the common definition)
A Lower receiver defined by federal law is a firearm. BUT Hawaii does not define it as one as by itself it can not operate with an exploding force. Nor does it have a barrel. to be a pistol or rifle it must have a barrel (16 inchs+ = rifle, all else pistol)
so by Hawaiis own laws you do not need to register a lower receiver created from an 80% lower, UNTILL you add a barrel
OR
If you wanted to go further then that You wouldn't need to register it untill you used it in a way that it is a weapon. A firearm that is manufactured (and designed by you cutting it) is not a firearm in Hawaii IF you only intend to shoot paper or hunt with it.
But that just what the law says.........
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Damn! So much for putting the fun back in!
:( :( :(
even if you added it you would most likely need to permanently attach the front take down pin to satisfy HPD that its ONLY a black powder rifle.
Same as with a can cannon, 80% lower + can canon with a permanently attached front take down pin = Not a firearm
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Just taking the law to mean what it literally says.
"Firearm" means any weapon, for which the operating force is an explosive, including but not limited to pistols, revolvers, rifles, shotguns, automatic firearms, noxious gas projectors, mortars, bombs, and cannon.
A weapon is an item designed or modified to cause injury or death. (not defined in Hawaii but this is the common definition)
A Lower receiver defined by federal law is a firearm. BUT Hawaii does not define it as one as by itself it can not operate with an exploding force. Nor does it have a barrel. to be a pistol or rifle it must have a barrel (16 inchs+ = rifle, all else pistol)
so by Hawaiis own laws you do not need to register a lower receiver created from an 80% lower, UNTILL you add a barrel
OR
If you wanted to go further then that You wouldn't need to register it untill you used it in a way that it is a weapon. A firearm that is manufactured (and designed by you cutting it) is not a firearm in Hawaii IF you only intend to shoot paper or hunt with it.
But that just what the law says.........
I remember reading the rationale by ATF for defining the firearm as they do --- the fire control group is what makes a firearm work. Without it, there's no easy way to operate the weapon. So, that's the part they decided to designate for control and transfer purposes. Anyone (technically) can change out a barrel, upper receiver, etc. So the serial on the part that has the working parts makes a little sense.
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I understand and respect all OPINIONS about SHTF and all that. say you manufacture your 80% and bring it in for registration to HPD, will they require you to go thru the permit process and wait 14 days? the HPD site doesn't give a definitive answer. let's see if we can stick to the facts here.... past experience stories anyone?
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I understand and respect all OPINIONS about SHTF and all that. say you manufacture your 80% and bring it in for registration to HPD, will they require you to go thru the permit process and wait 14 days? the HPD site doesn't give a definitive answer. let's see if we can stick to the facts here.... past experience stories anyone?
Since it's a rifle by their definition, you just need your Long Gun Permit to Acquire. If you don't have one, best to apply and pick it up before you try to register. I've registered a few lowers as "lower receiver" on the registration form.
As for engraving, you have to worry about the "place to keep" BS. That limits you to gun shops and gunsmiths for the most part. There are ways to do it yourself, or you can mail it to places that can do a professional job. HPD is fine with using their anti-theft engraving pen to mark it for you, but I think most would rather have a better looking job done!
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I understand and respect all OPINIONS about SHTF and all that. say you manufacture your 80% and bring it in for registration to HPD, will they require you to go thru the permit process and wait 14 days? the HPD site doesn't give a definitive answer. let's see if we can stick to the facts here.... past experience stories anyone?
Never done it because its cheaper to buy a finished lower.
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Never done it because its cheaper to buy a finished lower.
I've heard that somewhere before ....
:)
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I understand and respect all OPINIONS about SHTF and all that. say you manufacture your 80% and bring it in for registration to HPD, will they require you to go thru the permit process and wait 14 days? the HPD site doesn't give a definitive answer. let's see if we can stick to the facts here.... past experience stories anyone?
I already told you what to do. Get information directly from the head of the firearms registration division about the exact details of registering an 80% lower, preferably in writing. Ask all the questions you asked here (re engraving, etc.). No matter what someone on this forum tells you, you should not rely on it as valid legal advice. That's my legal advice. Please ignore it. :shaka:
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Might not be an issue for that much longer anyway:
H.R. 1278 - would require background checks before buying unassembled firearm kits
Two House Democrats have introduced legislation that would require federal background checks before buying unassembled firearm kits and unfinished receivers.
The measure, entered as H.R. 1278 last week, would amend federal law to consider firearm kits to be firearms.
http://www.guns.com/2017/03/07/new-b...-gun-loophole/
“Guns assembled using these kits are called ghost guns because they are often times completely untraceable, assembled using a receiver that does not have a serial number, and are almost impossible to be tracked by law enforcement,” said Espaillat. “The Ghost Guns Are Guns Act closes this loophole as these guns are more often used in violent crimes and pose serious safety concerns to our communities and law enforcement.”
The measure, co-sponsored by Illinois Democrat Brad Schneider, would add the broad definition of “any combination of parts designed or intended for use in converting any device into a firearm and from which a firearm may be readily assembled” to the definition of what constitutes a firearm under federal law.
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these guns are more often used in violent crimes
uh...
no
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HPD refuses to register my flare guns....... ???
(http://www.firearmstalk.com/images/3/9/0/8/3/050406-openletter-nfa-flare-inserts-1-718.jpg)
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or these 100% receivers
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Ph4AAOSwvzRX0KCL/s-l300.jpg)
(http://www.picklee.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/metal-wood-table.jpg)
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CMMG, Inc. AR-15 Muzzle Loading Black Powder Upper Assembly .50 Caliber 20" Barrel Picatinny Rail Black
(https://ii.cheaperthandirt.com/fcgi-bin/iipsrv.fcgi?FIF=/images/cheaperthandirt/source/9-106586_1.tif&wid=480&cvt=jpeg)
Bring the fun of black powder to the modern sporting rifle platform with this specialized upper assembly from CMMG. Just pin onto any AR-15 lower receiver and insert the included Single Shot Sled into the magazine well. Load the barrel with a .50 caliber sabot bullet and up to 100 grains of pelletized black powder. Insert a primed .223/5.56 casing in the action, release the bolt and you're ready to go. The barrel is easily removable for cleaning. Includes ramrod and a sling with ramrod storage.
Of course, being an upper, no government notice is required.
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uh...
no
Someone in the comments section did that math, as much as can be done given the vagueness of stats categories of exact type of firearms used in crimes, and the number of crimes committed using "ghost guns" is either zero or very close to zero. But the politician (who also introduced legislation to protect "sanctuary cities") claims that the "ghost guns" "are more often used in violent crimes" (more often than what?). And he wouldn't lie or be ignorant of the facts, would he?
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Of course, being an upper, no government notice is required.
Yet. See: HR 1278.
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CMMG, Inc. AR-15 Muzzle Loading Black Powder Upper Assembly .50 Caliber 20" Barrel Picatinny Rail Black
(https://ii.cheaperthandirt.com/fcgi-bin/iipsrv.fcgi?FIF=/images/cheaperthandirt/source/9-106586_1.tif&wid=480&cvt=jpeg)
Bring the fun of black powder to the modern sporting rifle platform with this specialized upper assembly from CMMG. Just pin onto any AR-15 lower receiver and insert the included Single Shot Sled into the magazine well. Load the barrel with a .50 caliber sabot bullet and up to 100 grains of pelletized black powder. Insert a primed .223/5.56 casing in the action, release the bolt and you're ready to go. The barrel is easily removable for cleaning. Includes ramrod and a sling with ramrod storage.
(d) Registration shall not be required for:
(1) Any device that is designed to fire loose black powder or that is a firearm manufactured before 1899;
Not sure if this means anything but "pelletized" black powder is not the same as "loose" black powder. Maybe it is just being picky. There are guns that are designed to use pelletized black powder substitute such as this upper. And one should not try and use loose black powder in these guns. But I can see HPD giving someone a hard time over this.
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Has anyone gone thru the complete registration process with an 80%? If so, can you explain the steps please?
I've registered a pistol built from an 80% receiver. 1) WAAAAYYY easier to get an AR platform pistol registered in Hawaii going 80% route. 2) I wanted a single-shot receiver for a few unrelated reasons and the 80% is WAAAYYY cheaper than a completed single-shot receiver. 3) Said receiver is considered "sacraficial" to me since the real fun comes from returning to the United States of America to shoot my intended upper(s) as they were originally intended but still being able to visit a firing range in Hawaii. That said, "sacraficial" receiver best be a cheap one.
So first thing, I will say what I did because what I was told during this process would have been illegal on the Federal Level.
Take 80% to Firearms Division, preferably with something that needs to be registered because you're not going to do anything else but get HPD's instructions and warnings about registering the receiver. Keep in mind, this was a pistol build so one may not get the same WTF knee-jerk reactions. The bottom line from Firearms was it is possible so long as their requirements are met. If your response is the same, move on. Also note a Permit to Aquire is needed.
I "processed" the 80% and serialized it. Legally in Hawaii, you have three days from the time the first tool cuts the receiver to register the receiver. Again, pistol build so there were a few more hoops of fire for me to hurl myself through but at this point, the receiver is registered in Hawaii.
My end result:
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I've registered a pistol built from an 80% receiver. 1) WAAAAYYY easier to get an AR platform pistol registered in Hawaii going 80% route. 2) I wanted a single-shot receiver for a few unrelated reasons and the 80% is WAAAYYY cheaper than a completed single-shot receiver. 3) Said receiver is considered "sacraficial" to me since the real fun comes from returning to the United States of America to shoot my intended upper(s) as they were originally intended but still being able to visit a firing range in Hawaii. That said, "sacraficial" receiver best be a cheap one.
So first thing, I will say what I did because what I was told during this process would have been illegal on the Federal Level.
Take 80% to Firearms Division, preferably with something that needs to be registered because you're not going to do anything else but get HPD's instructions and warnings about registering the receiver. Keep in mind, this was a pistol build so one may not get the same WTF knee-jerk reactions. The bottom line from Firearms was it is possible so long as their requirements are met. If your response is the same, move on. Also note a Permit to Aquire is needed.
I "processed" the 80% and serialized it. Legally in Hawaii, you have three days from the time the first tool cuts the receiver to register the receiver. Again, pistol build so there were a few more hoops of fire for me to hurl myself through but at this point, the receiver is registered in Hawaii.
My end result:
What he said,
did several with a foreign language and full auto marking too.. SN is a birthday
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u666/suka5168/IMG_1770_zpskiutmrpe.jpg) (http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/suka5168/media/IMG_1770_zpskiutmrpe.jpg.html)
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SN is a birthday
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u666/suka5168/IMG_1770_zpskiutmrpe.jpg) (http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/suka5168/media/IMG_1770_zpskiutmrpe.jpg.html)
you look way younger than 70, suka
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chinese calendar....