2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Firearms and Accessories => Topic started by: Kukailimoku on March 15, 2017, 10:23:43 PM
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Okay, I have a feeling this may be one of those "ask ten people and get 42 different answers" kind of question, but as a noob, this is the kind of dumb thing I'll do. Here goes:
What's the best (or good enough) entry-level AR-15/M-16?
First consideration is price, but I willing to spend more if the better features/quality justify it; don't want to buy pure junk but do want something cheap but good enuff. First black gun for me.
Looking at the 600-700 range, willing to go up to about 900 if that one would be significantly better than 700/800 one, but price is prime concern for me for this first gun. Also, something that's likely to be commonplace & in-stock in most dealers, nothing too exotic nor production line backorder. Use will be plain old target shooting (no competitions) and general home defense (nothing sexy). Not looking for beau coup accessories, but maybe a red dot sight tho prefer if it came with iron sights out of the box. Don't care length, don't care if have or don't have M-16 style front sight, hand guards. I'm open to almost anything. Just want cheap but good.
Ideas?
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http://www.kaneohegs.com/inventory.htm
Scroll down to the ARs
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Questions to ask...
Buy local or internet?
If internet, what FFL to choose? (http://fflgundealers.net/transfer/hawaii/)
AR-15 or 300BLK? (This is less of a silly question than you might think.)
Iron sights or scope?
If scope, how much to spend on a scope because anything less than $100 is a waste of time?
Picatinny hand guard or keymod? (I definitely rec a free floating hand guard.)
Other than that, welcome to the addiction. It's like black tar heroin. Once you get that sweet taste in your veins, you can never have enough (apparently).
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Depends what is your primary purpose for it. Close quarters shooting, plinking, highpower rifle, precision rifle, hunting, self defense, etc.
Nevermind I see target shooting. I'd go with a 16" heavy barrel which is better for precision and also helps with accuracy standing. Chrome lined barrels are good in that it's easier to clean and long lasting. I think most low cost AR15's nowadays shoot great.
If you have never shot a rifle before, I suggest you go to the range to get some coaching, take a class, and find out what kinds of things you want in a rifle.
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I do marvel at the number of high end firearms that are for sale here. I guess the low end firearms get sold faster than the electrons can reach the server.
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Most low cost AR15's work great nowadays. Another thing you want to look at is the trigger. Milspec triggers on lower cost rifles are a bit heavier and not as crisp as more expensive rifles or aftermarket kits. Though you don't want too light of a trigger on a self defense gun.
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A basic AR will cost about 700ish. Most gun stores have them in stock.
Remember, its the indian, not the arrow.
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cant go wrong with a colt 6920 you now get the ones without furniture around $850. You could build it however you want.
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Gahh so many options!
Palmetto state armory always have deals on uppers (complete) for 400-600 depending what you want. And buy/ build a lower on your own. I suggest atleast get the lower receiver locally cause the ffl fee. Uppers don't require ffl so you can ship it directly to your house. The lower may cost in total 350 if you wait for sales on brownells psa, midwayusa etc. they always have 10$ off of 100$ spent, and so on. You can minus iron sights and get a straight holosun red dot (I'm interested in the acss model myself)
As the other person said, dpms oracle, Anderson manufacturing etc all make entry level rifles. My friend has a oracle and it shoots pretty well out the box. I think he paid 700 3-4 years ago but idk pricing now. He just added a comp m4 . Kept the rest stock.
Best way is to go to gun stores and look what they have in stock. There's always a sale in atleast one gun shop on Oahu. Sorry idk what island your from exactly.
Good luck!
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I think you should narrow down what you want in your AR
free float barrel, upgraded trigger, and what kind of upgraded trigger, handguard keymod or quad rail or standard style or other, buttstock, standard front sight or flip up, red dot or scope or prism scope or just iron sights, barrel length and heavy or not, barrel SS melonite chrome lined, etc
but I also think that you wont really know exactly what you want in an AR until you shoot it for a while and get to know what you want and what works for you
you can always modify your AR later too
have you ever thought about building your own AR? its not difficult at all.
I got my first AR over a year ago. it was the standard style front iron sight and plastic 2 piece handguard. you know, your basic AR.
it was a Core15, great rifle. also picked up 3 lowers at the same time.
in 2 months I built the 3 lowers. I built the lowers basically knowing very little about AR's. just using a youtube vid and a post from AR15.com to teach me how to build the lowers.
after building the 3 AR's I thought to myself that I don't need 4 AR's, and I sold the Core15. not that it was a bad rifle, its a great rifle. I just wanted to keep the ones that I built myself.
I see AR's online going for cheap now. Ruger AR556 going for $400-something, S&W m&p going for about the same. and other brands going for cheap too.
take your time in deciding. :shaka:
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I think AERO PRECISION should have a mention here. I have found it nice quality at a economic cost. And yes the colt is also good.
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If you YouTube "stop buying ar15s" there's a good video on why you should build your own. Tbh I thought I was going to keep my stock 6920. But I modified it to what I wanted. Spent a whole lot of extra money and had a whole lot of unused parts(some sold, some threw in the trash). Stangzilla has a good point in building your own. I built 8 so far. Kept 2 only. Maybe you'll cherish the rifle more and save some $$ in the process as you won't need a lot of stuff if you modify a standard ar from a store.
And dirty lickins - aero got some good stuff too!
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I think AERO PRECISION should have a mention here. I have found it nice quality at a economic cost.
you mean an economical cost?
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you mean an economical cost?
Maybe he's economically challenged. :stopjack: :D
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Savage MSR
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I'd first ask what "best" means. That's subjective and depends on your planned use and preferences.
To me, the BEST AR15 has:
1. MILSPEC parts
2. upper and lower receivers from quality sources -- matched would be nice
3. barrel of the legal & correct length for my needs -- longer range adds length and weight plus may change rifle twist
4. free-floated barrel -- prefer mid-length for gas system myself
5. mid-length handguard for both mid-length and carbine-length barrels -- gives longer sight radius than carbine-length
6. fold-down front & rear BUIS
7. Adjustable stock with good cheek wield
8. As few proprietary parts as possible. Don't want to be locked into a single (expensive) provider for parts
9. Direct impingement is fine for normal use, but long periods without cleaning might warrant a piston system
10. Picatinny rail from rear of upper receiver to front of handguard for mounting optics of any length at any eye relief.
11. Ambidextrous safety lever
12. B.A.D. lever
If I can get the majority of those things on an existing purchase, it saves me having to buy piecemeal and modify the gun. Small mods, like the ambi safety and B.A.D., can be added on any rifle at a minimal cost. Changing out a gas system and handrail will cost a couple hundred bucks at least for a low profile gas block, front sight, handguard, and incidentals.
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Online
Colts carbine gas oems are $690 just add stock, hand guard, trigger guard and buis
Bcm blem mid length gas uppers are $400. Add $80 toolcraft bcg, $40 buis and $40 hand guard to complete the upper. You can build a lower for about $150
^ if you want something that is "duty" grade with a chrome lined barrel and only a few hundred more than a budget AR with a nitrited barrel. Toyota hi-lux vs Nissan Frontier, both will get you to the grocery store but if you had to get out of dodge which set of keys would you grab?
That said, the ruger ar appeals to the tightwad in me.....must resist.....they are < $500 online and with the savings you can get 500 rds of ammo.
If you get a budget ar, try to stay with a company with good customer service.
Whatever you decide, it is the right choice for you. Have fun and post pics!!
(Check out m4carbine.com they are just brutal on anyone that mentions PSA, Bustmaster, DPMS, etc. Seems like a lot of them carry or used to carry an ar for a living)
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If you want quality, but don't want to pay too much for a custom setup, Colt has 2 OEM models. They are the basic parts that make a rifle but without the furniture.
Pick either the OEM1 with a standard A2 fixed front sight / gas block, or the OEM2 with the low profile gas block and no front sight.
Then you can add the furniture you like, customizing the look and feel but still keeping a factory-built Colt AR-15.
It's another option.
http://www.colt.com/Portals/0/Specs/2016/LE6920-OEM1.pdf
http://www.colt.com/Portals/0/Specs/2016/LE6920-OEM2.pdf
OGC has had them in stock.
https://t.co/mY5KFiiVzj
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Check out the Gun Show this weekend--there will be a lot of rifles and accessories available. If you find something you like and it's in your price range then buy it. Don't make the mistake of walking away thinking you'll be back later to buy it--odds are that someone else will spot it and buy it out from under you.
I'll have some ammo and a NIB 6920 for sale. There'll be a lot of used rifles for sale, but unless you know what you're looking at/for, I'd recommend sticking to new guns (at least they come with a manual).
Speedtek can help you put together a rifle, if you're looking for a customized piece (and he'll be there at the show).
Good luck!
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Google "slickguns" use the search function to find deals.
As others have said, I would also reccomend a Colt oem ~$690 plus $30-45 shipping, plus $25 FFL fee. Handguards($20-150), buttstock($20-100) and trigger guard($10) are very easy to install and are most often swapped out anyway. What we care about are the gun internals & barrel, which Colts are very decent at. They also tend to hold value in case you decide to sell & upgrade. Aero precision is also a fair choice.
I would def buy online, save an average of $50-200, YMMV. If you've never ordered a firearm online, don't be put off by the whole FFL process, it's fairly simple. Shop around, look for free shipping and or coupon codes and save an extra couple extra $. If you do buy local, google the item/price on the spot, so you don't get raped.
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Questions to ask...
Buy local or internet?
If internet, what FFL to choose? (http://fflgundealers.net/transfer/hawaii/)
AR-15 or 300BLK? (This is less of a silly question than you might think.)
Iron sights or scope?
If scope, how much to spend on a scope because anything less than $100 is a waste of time?
Picatinny hand guard or keymod? (I definitely rec a free floating hand guard.)
Other than that, welcome to the addiction. It's like black tar heroin. Once you get that sweet taste in your veins, you can never have enough (apparently).
Thnaks for the both humorous and truthful reply.
5.56/.223 only. Iron sights preferred (entry level). I don't know enough about picatinny vs keymod (or any other trade standard) to care, but I know picatinny from my Army time so... I guess picatinny then?
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Depends what is your primary purpose for it. Close quarters shooting, plinking, highpower rifle, precision rifle, hunting, self defense, etc.
Nevermind I see target shooting. I'd go with a 16" heavy barrel which is better for precision and also helps with accuracy standing. Chrome lined barrels are good in that it's easier to clean and long lasting. I think most low cost AR15's nowadays shoot great.
If you have never shot a rifle before, I suggest you go to the range to get some coaching, take a class, and find out what kinds of things you want in a rifle.
retired 20-yr grunt, AB, Rgr, so I shot a little bit here and there. I know what I WANT in a rifle but the trouble is I ain't willing to pay for it (kid starting college, and wife has a wrangler JK, so there is LOTS of competition for my dollars), I can't get the M14 or Galil or AK that I want. So I'm settling for a black gun the kind I used to shot, the kind that it looks like everyone has and is cheaper than a AK/Galil/M14/M1/M1Carbine/1903. Also I don't live/breathe guns as a hobby so even though I was a career grunt I couldn't tell a key mod from a key fob as far as personally owning or buying my own gun that uncle sam ain't tossed at me and said here ya go.
Looking for cheap to take to Koko Head someday but not something so junk that the cops at the Single Window at Beritania are gonna laugh me out of the line over (or you guys at the crater).
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A basic AR will cost about 700ish. Most gun stores have them in stock.
Remember, its the indian, not the arrow.
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Yeah, and this injun don't shoot so well. Not good enough for high optics and free floating barrel won't help me none, not that great a shot.
I would consider myself a great "practical" shot whatever that means. Most of my time in the service I did NOT qualify expert. Yet as a Drill sergeant every time a kid had trouble hitting because "something was wrong with the weapon" I managed to grab it from him, not adjust sights, and standing up knock down more than him - just to prove to him aint nuttin wrong wit da weapon. But no, i'm definitely NOT a great sub-MOA at the far end of the KD range kind of shooter nor gonna enter any competition. So accessories and minute improvements (free float vs not) etc would just be wasted on me. I'm good enuff when I have to be good enuff shooter. Not great.
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Gahh so many options!
Which is why I took a break form self-educating and came to this forum!!! You know the pain I'm feeling now. Especailly if this first one has to be "right" because I probably won't be buying many, nor often. Thanks for the reply.
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you wont really know exactly what you want in an AR until you shoot it for a while and get to know what you want and what works for you
you can always modify your AR later too
Unfortunately (or fortunately) looks that way ,especially with black guns today. Thanks for the reply.
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I think AERO PRECISION should have a mention here. I have found it nice quality at a economic cost. And yes the colt is also good.
DirtyLickens is such a local username, especially for those of a certain age group. I wish I thought of that first.
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Check out the Gun Show this weekend--there will be a lot of rifles and accessories available. If you find something you like and it's in your price range then buy it. Don't make the mistake of walking away thinking you'll be back later to buy it--odds are that someone else will spot it and buy it out from under you.
I'll have some ammo and a NIB 6920 for sale. There'll be a lot of used rifles for sale, but unless you know what you're looking at/for, I'd recommend sticking to new guns (at least they come with a manual).
Speedtek can help you put together a rifle, if you're looking for a customized piece (and he'll be there at the show).
Good luck!
Aww, missed the show, didn't even hear about it and just read this Tuesday afterward.. This is one of THOSE states I guess, where guns are driven socially underground then, no advertisers, no news station announcements... Thanks ofr the show advice tho, do appreciate the reply.
I wonder if it's like the gun shows on the mainland...?
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Aww, missed the show, didn't even hear about it and just read this Tuesday afterward.. This is one of THOSE states I guess, where guns are driven socially underground then, no advertisers, no news station announcements... Thanks ofr the show advice tho, do appreciate the reply.
I wonder if it's like the gun shows on the mainland...?
No, it's not like guns shows on the mainland
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I think the Springfield Saint is a good deal. Saw one at Danger Close for less than 900
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Young Guns had an impressive display of gun show priced weaponry. They had one for $500 fresh out of the box. Others like SEC were ammo only or had >$2k rifles.
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I've got a BNIB Ruger 556 that will probably fit your needs--PM me if you are interested.
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CDNN has Ruger ARs for 499.00 check there newsest flyer online
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cant go wrong with a colt 6920 you now get the ones without furniture around $850. You could build it however you want.
I've only seen a few Colts but I've never been all that impressed. My buddy has one and the finish is terrible.
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https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=93629%252FTROY+SCARSP316BT+CQB-SPL+A3+5.56+16+BK
pretty hard to beat this deal. troy makes solid products.
comes with a free float rail plus battlesights for only a few bucks more than the colt oem, which would have been my suggestion til i saw this the other day.
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I've only seen a few Colts but I've never been all that impressed. My buddy has one and the finish is terrible.
me neither, but it seems like it has one of the best resale values and overall brand recognition. the oem can be had for as little as 650 nowadays so thats why i usually recommend it for first time buyers. when they were close to 1000 i thought it was not a good deal at all.
i personally like the finish on the aero precision products out of all the cheaper ar's ive seen.
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I've only seen a few Colts but I've never been all that impressed. My buddy has one and the finish is terrible.
My first AR is a Colt 6940 with monolithic upper. Great shooting and perfect engineering.
The "impressive" thing about Colt is, they actually own the AR-15 patent (purchased from Armalite), was the sole producer of AR-pattern rifles for the military, and is the only make many police departments will allow their officers to purchase for carry on duty.
All other AR-15s are "AR-style" or "AR-pattern" rifles, since only a Colt can technically be called a true AR-15.
True that others may have made improvements in their models. Those are good, too. But if you want to be impressed, be impressed in the fact that Colt made all M16s and through 2011 all M4s used in actual combat. The M16 started production by Colt in 1964. Colt had the exclusive M4 contract from 1993 to 2011.
The other makers used model numbers and names other than M4, and were called by many "M4gery" (M-forgery). Colt sued to protect their patent of the shorter barreled M4 name. Bushmaster won a court case to use the name M4, as it's now become a generic name for AR-15 pattern rifles, even those with 16" barrels for legal US sales to the public.
Part of owning a firearm for many is the history of its design and the military's adoption and use of it.
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My first AR is a Colt 6940 with monolithic upper. Great shooting and perfect engineering.
The "impressive" thing about Colt is, they actually own the AR-15 patent (purchased from Armalite), was the sole producer of AR-pattern rifles for the military, and is the only make many police departments will allow their officers to purchase for carry on duty.
All other AR-15s are "AR-style" or "AR-pattern" rifles, since only a Colt can technically be called a true AR-15.
True that others may have made improvements in their models. Those are good, too. But if you want to be impressed, be impressed in the fact that Colt made all M16s and through 2011 all M4s used in actual combat. The M16 started production by Colt in 1964. Colt had the exclusive M4 contract from 1993 to 2011.
The other makers used model numbers and names other than M4, and were called by many "M4gery" (M-forgery). Colt sued to protect their patent of the shorter barreled M4 name. Bushmaster won a court case to use the name M4, as it's now become a generic name for AR-15 pattern rifles, even those with 16" barrels for legal US sales to the public.
Part of owning a firearm for many is the history of its design and the military's adoption and use of it.
Alright, thanks for allowing me my own opinion :thumbsup: seems I hurt your feeling.
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Alright, thanks for allowing me my own opinion :thumbsup: seems I hurt your feeling.
Simply posting my own opinion. You're welcome to yours.
If I hurt your feelings by supporting mine with an explanation, tough! >:D
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Simply posting my own opinion. You're welcome to yours.
If I hurt your feelings by supporting mine with an explanation, tough! >:D
Thanks
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Milspec AR's are commodities now and more or less the same, including Colt. Colt's are made well, however you're paying for the brand.
One of the reasons LE use Colt's is their armorer has to be certified on that brand and model of the gun. The armorer's not going to get 20 different certifications for different brands and models of AR15s.
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I have two complete colt guns and a complete lower. They are good guns for sure. I got them on good deals.
Other guns that I consider excellent quality are BCM, LMT and Daniel Defense. Though I believe that DD guns are overpriced. My first AR was a DD and while it was an excellent gun, they have gotten quite pricey.
As mentioned above, it depends what you want the gun for. Defense, plinking, just because you want one. The reason I mention that is that there are so many options and if one is just starting out, they might not know what they want or need. I can say that was true for me. There was a laundry list of things that I wanted to add or change. After shooting for a while, some of those things changed. That said, I am the type that wants to try for myself. Light weight be normal weight barrels, Aimpoint vs EoTech, FSP vs flip up sights, etc. I ended up buying multiple guns in different configurations to try. While fun and I learned a lot, it was expensive. I have a box of stuff that went on the gun and eventually came off. Some were even bought that never ended up on the gun.
Anyways, since it seems like you budget conscious, I could recommend buying something basic and shooting it lots. If you have buddies with ARs, even better and you can try theirs.
Build vs complete. My personal preference is to buy complete if defensive use will be primary and you aren't experienced in building ARs. I've built guns and while they have done fine, at least so far. I've seen to many user "custom" builds shit the bed. That and in my experience, you build to get exactly what you want and aren't generally going to save money, or at least not a significant amount.
Good luck and enjoy the world of ARs. You're lucky that you're getting into it while the market is quite good for ARs.
Finish? That's one aspect that isn't very important to me. Yeah, I don't want a new guns to have a beat to shit look before I shoot them. That said, all my guns are shooters, whether at the range, competition, training, etc. They each develop their own personality. If you're worried about finish, guns like Noveske tend to have really high quality finish, but you're definitely going to pay a premium.
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My first AR is a Colt 6940 with monolithic upper. Great shooting and perfect engineering.
I came close to buying a 6940 for my first AR. Eventually got a DDM4 V5. The 6940 is a great gun, but I was talked away from that gun because of the monolithic rail and inability to change it in the future. I ended up eventually buying an LMT with a monolithic rail, so go figure. Haha.
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I came close to buying a 6940 for my first AR. Eventually got a DDM4 V5. The 6940 is a great gun, but I was talked away from that gun because of the monolithic rail and inability to change it in the future. I ended up eventually buying an LMT with a monolithic rail, so go figure. Haha.
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The rail was actually the reason I bought it. Like you, I was warned there is a proprietary tool and fitting on it, and changing would require expense. But having a single piece upper and front-to-rear scope rail means never worrying about misalignment or loosened parts. There's no seam between the front and rear rail sections. One long rail means it's solid. The front sight/gas block is also a benefit. The sight folds down and is just as solid as the A2 sight/gas block. The sight design allows the barrel to be free floated -- benefit #3. It definitely is a plus for accuracy.
All in all, I'm happy I chose it over the 6920 for just a couple hundred bucks more. I've come to like other handguards better than the quad rail, but that's not a deal breaker. Plenty of room for add-on toys!
:shaka:
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The rail was actually the reason I bought it. Like you, I was warned there is a proprietary tool and fitting on it, and changing would require expense. But having a single piece upper and front-to-rear scope rail means never worrying about misalignment or loosened parts. There's no seam between the front and rear rail sections. One long rail means it's solid. The front sight/gas block is also a benefit. The sight folds down and is just as solid as the A2 sight/gas block. The sight design allows the barrel to be free floated -- benefit #3. It definitely is a plus for accuracy.
All in all, I'm happy I chose it over the 6920 for just a couple hundred bucks more. I've come to like other handguards better than the quad rail, but that's not a deal breaker. Plenty of room for add-on toys!
:shaka:
Free float vs non-free float was another aspect that I forgot to mention. Most of my guns are free float and I have one KISS/beater gun that isn't free float. Does it make a difference? I'm sure it does, but I'm no precision shooter.
Quad rail was one thing that I was initially interested as well. Now, I like the keymod rails for lighter while still allowing what I want to be mounted. My guns are pretty simple and don't have a bunch of stuff on it. ARs aren't super heavy guns, but I now prefer to keep them lighter if I can. Haha.
I am sure if I got a 6940 as my first AR that I would have liked it and had been happy. That said, I was always sure I'd have more than one. :D
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Has anyone run into a factory built, DI gassed AR that they didn't like ?
Maybe folks should list some brands they have had first hand personal experience with that they would recommend staying away from.
(Not the gun snob DPMS sucks, but I've never owned or shot one type thing)
I've owned and shot DPMS, Del-Ton, PSA, S&W Sport and LMT
All of them ran like champs under range conditions (probably least stress possible) with decent mags.
Accuracy varied but not by a lot more than my limited skill set.
(1:9 twist works well with 55gr. Ammo)
Note: I've become a fan of the mid-length gas system. Not much discussion on gas lengths yet which is another consideration.
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Has anyone run into a factory built, DI gassed AR that they didn't like ?
When you put it that way, nope. I own a Spikes build / Bushmaster / BCM-Noveske build, all work fine so far. My buddy also has a Bushmaster and a Colt that work fine.
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I have a PSA complete upper and it's been good so far. Only about 400-500 rounds. I bought it because it was known as one of the high/overgassed uppers with the intent on testing with low powered ammo, like Tula. Two of my midlength gas guns don't function well with cheap stuff like Tula. Now that I have the upper, Tula has been hard to find and when I do, it's about sale price as 193...
I'm not a brand snob either. I do recommend companies that are known for producing high quality guns and that I have personal experience with. I've shot DPMS, S&W and others, but not more than say 100-200 rounds. They were fine really. The only guns that I could caution against are polymer lowers. I've heard that the newer ones are "improved", but I've seen so many break, and usually at the loop where the buffer tube connects to. Yeah, I've seen some polymer lower guns perform well, but just too risky for me and it's not like standard lowers are expensive.
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Right now Smith & Wesson and Ruger have $500 AR's brand new.
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Right now Smith & Wesson and Ruger have $500 AR's brand new.
I can personally vouch for the S&W AR's as I have shot a few. The stock trigger is not bad, reliability and accuracy is very good. I have not shot the Rugers but I have handled a couple. Trigger is not as good as the S&W IMHO but I am sure accuracy is good as well as reliability. If it were my money I would certainly put the S&W near the top of my list.
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My first AR was a Ruger AR556. Great gun if you're looking into something with iron sights. I think I paid $600 for that one a year ago. The last AR I bought was literally the cheapest thing Sportsman Outdoor Warehouse had (on line)... American Tactical Imports model for $450. The original plan was to Barbie Doll the everloving crap out of it. Load it up full of ridiculous accessories, paint it... basically make a range clown out of it. But before I did that I threw a cheap Monstrum scope on it and took it to the range. F-me if that thing didn't shoot pretty nice. Looking back I kind of wish I'd have picked this one up first. Probably would have skipped buying the Ruger and jumped into a Smith & Wesson M&P (I have an M&P .22 and I love it) or maybe even something a little fancier (Daniel, F1... $1500+/- range).
I'm sure everyone has pointed this out already but ARs are like potato chips. You can't have just one. Best advice based on my own experiences is to get something cheap with detachable sights so you can play with different scopes and red dots. Just get a 5.56, don't worry about all the variants, just keep it simple the first time around. Get a feel for the genre and figure out what you like/dislike want/need and then spend some money on your next one to make sure you get what you really want. Who knows, after playing around with it you might decide a cheap range monkey is all you really ever wanted... save yourself some money.
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At the LIFE fun shoot yesterday, Daniel from KGS had us try out the new Springfield Saint AR15. It felt solid, shot nice, and had good features to it. It's a small step up in price from the bargain AR15's and I think it's a good price for what you get. I think he was selling it for $700 or $800.
http://www.springfield-armory.com/products/saint/
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At the LIFE fun shoot yesterday, Daniel from KGS had us try out the new Springfield Saint AR15. It felt solid, shot nice, and had good features to it. It's a small step up in price from the bargain AR15's and I think it's a good price for what you get. I think he was selling it for $700 or $800.
http://www.springfield-armory.com/products/saint/
Dwayne's a nicer guy...just saying..
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Someone asked offline, but I'll add to discussion here, about what problems I've seen with guns that would indicate lesser or "not as high" quality.
Some things I've seen personally are BCG gas key not properly staked (the key actually started working loose), castle nut not properly staked or in some cases red Loctite or some other really strong adhesive used and allowed castle nut to come loose, and gas blocks coming loose. All those on factory guns.
Are guns from known quality manufacturers immune from problems? Definitely not. I've had the selector tab break on my LMT after maybe 1,000 rounds. It happened during a class in Alaska and luckily I had a second gun with me. Now I typically bring along some spare parts and springs. If I don't need them, there's a good chance it will help someone else in the class. My backup gun had saved multiple people after stuff on their guns shit the bed, including stuff like optics.
The hole for the grip on my DD (that I no longer have) was misaligned such that standard grips wouldn't tighten down properly. DD tried to bubba the replacement grip after sending them the gun with the grip, saying that the lower was in spec. Well, replacement grips fit on all my Colts, LMT and BCM as well as other A2 grips except for the one that came with the DD gun.
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OP, if you're still in the market, go for the Saint or a 6920 if you can find one in your price range. It's not that the lesser brands like Del-Ton, BPMS, Bushmaster, etc can't produce a gun that works. The problem is they produce many more that fail more frequently. If you're already paying several hundred for a rifle, might as well save a little more to get one that will be much less likely to malfunction or break, and that you'd likely be able to pass down to your children if you decide to do so. Or maybe you decide you love shooting and want to put 5k rounds through it a year. Either way, a little bit more in the initial investment will allow you to do that. Personally, if I'm going to spend over $50, whatever I'm buying better work.
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At the LIFE fun shoot yesterday, Daniel from KGS had us try out the new Springfield Saint AR15. It felt solid, shot nice, and had good features to it. It's a small step up in price from the bargain AR15's and I think it's a good price for what you get. I think he was selling it for $700 or $800.
http://www.springfield-armory.com/products/saint/
Off topic but that Rifle would look so much better with the SA Logo instead of "SAINT"
(https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/875/875270.jpg)
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Seems like a few fans of the Ruger AR, so here's a pretty good deal on them.
$479 shipped from Sportsmansguide
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/ruger-ar-556-semi-automatic-556-nato-223-remington-161-barrel-tactical-gray-301-rounds?a=2142616&SID=1411061FOF8756199381835544&CJ=1&cjaffilid=8263350&cjaffsite=FlexOffers.com%2c+LLC&cjadv=CJTSGUSA&cjadvid=1522857&utm_source=FlexOffers.com%2c+LLC&utm_medium=CJ&utm_campaign=Redirect-Enabled+Deep+Link
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I recommend to the OP if they are still not sure which AR to purchase then they might consider purchasing a subscription to Gun Tests Magazine. It is basically the Consumer Reports reviews for firearms. They also maintain a database of all their reviews and recommendations going back many years so you can search to your heart's content.
Here is the link: http://www.gun-tests.com/
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Especailly if this first one has to be "right" because I probably won't be buying many, nor often.
I am at odds with some comments here in this thread as my own experiences, uses and requirements for rifles may differ from others. Given your comment above and if I were giving this advice to a family member for a one and done rifle, I would suggest a Colt 6920 complete, a Colt OEM 2 , or I might also suggest a BCM rifle.
This is a buyers market these days and will remain so for the near future, so buying quality for a good price is easy. I will admit that the market is forcing others to produce decent quality rifles for a bit less, but IF you ever wanted to do certain "upgrades" on parts quality to the rifle, you will probably end up spending a bit more down the road. Also you are going to get pretty much exactly what you are expecting with my above suggestions, no guessing, no fuss.
As for personal experiences and opinions with this pattern of rifle, mine may be a bit different than others. Many rifles, even home builds may seemingly shoot just fine for your average KKHD shooter, but it is when you really put a rifle to the test with accuracy and heavy use is where you may see the flaws show up. I cannot even begin to count the number of home builds and cheap manufacturer rifles that I have worked on that did just fine until they hit a hard use, high round count course.
For someone that wants a rifle that looks like an AR15 to put in a safe or to shoot recreationally from a bench at KKHD, then there are other lesser expensive options that will work just fine and I may even suggest a few when asked. However, if someone wants a rifle that is relatively inexpensive in relation to quality of parts, manufacture process, testing process and known reliability under any type of use, then paying a bit more upfront for a known quantity is advised. If anyone were to mention home or personal defense, then the latter is a must IMO.
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I am at odds with some comments here in this thread as my own experiences, uses and requirements for rifles may differ from others. Given your comment above and if I were giving this advice to a family member for a one and done rifle, I would suggest a Colt 6920 complete, a Colt OEM 2 , or I might also suggest a BCM rifle.
This is a buyers market these days and will remain so for the near future, so buying quality for a good price is easy. I will admit that the market is forcing others to produce decent quality rifles for a bit less, but IF you ever wanted to do certain "upgrades" on parts quality to the rifle, you will probably end up spending a bit more down the road. Also you are going to get pretty much exactly what you are expecting with my above suggestions, no guessing, no fuss.
As for personal experiences and opinions with this pattern of rifle, mine may be a bit different than others. Many rifles, even home builds may seemingly shoot just fine for your average KKHD shooter, but it is when you really put a rifle to the test with accuracy and heavy use is where you may see the flaws show up. I cannot even begin to count the number of home builds and cheap manufacturer rifles that I have worked on that did just fine until they hit a hard use, high round count course.
For someone that wants a rifle that looks like an AR15 to put in a safe or to shoot recreationally from a bench at KKHD, then there are other lesser expensive options that will work just fine and I may even suggest a few when asked. However, if someone wants a rifle that is relatively inexpensive in relation to quality of parts, manufacture process, testing process and known reliability under any type of use, then paying a bit more upfront for a known quantity is advised. If anyone were to mention home or personal defense, then the latter is a must IMO.
I think it depends on the person, too. I helped my daughter build her first AR, but that was after she practiced with my Colt 6940 and home-builds. I think she became much more comfortable operating an AR after she saw how it's assembled and what each main part's function is. She, like me, has an engineering mind, and half the fun of shooting is in learning and appreciating the various designs, features and capabilities of the various guns we own.
There's much to be said for assembling a rifle and test-firing it successfully its first time at the range! :thumbsup:
This is easier to recommend if there is a friend or family member with the experience and tools to assist. Otherwise, .... Colt!
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I am at odds with some comments here in this thread as my own experiences, uses and requirements for rifles may differ from others. Given your comment above and if I were giving this advice to a family member for a one and done rifle, I would suggest a Colt 6920 complete, a Colt OEM 2 , or I might also suggest a BCM rifle.
This is a buyers market these days and will remain so for the near future, so buying quality for a good price is easy. I will admit that the market is forcing others to produce decent quality rifles for a bit less, but IF you ever wanted to do certain "upgrades" on parts quality to the rifle, you will probably end up spending a bit more down the road. Also you are going to get pretty much exactly what you are expecting with my above suggestions, no guessing, no fuss.
As for personal experiences and opinions with this pattern of rifle, mine may be a bit different than others. Many rifles, even home builds may seemingly shoot just fine for your average KKHD shooter, but it is when you really put a rifle to the test with accuracy and heavy use is where you may see the flaws show up. I cannot even begin to count the number of home builds and cheap manufacturer rifles that I have worked on that did just fine until they hit a hard use, high round count course.
For someone that wants a rifle that looks like an AR15 to put in a safe or to shoot recreationally from a bench at KKHD, then there are other lesser expensive options that will work just fine and I may even suggest a few when asked. However, if someone wants a rifle that is relatively inexpensive in relation to quality of parts, manufacture process, testing process and known reliability under any type of use, then paying a bit more upfront for a known quantity is advised. If anyone were to mention home or personal defense, then the latter is a must IMO.
I own a 6920, 6720 and OEM2. The OEM2 is still awaiting a handguard to complete, but the 6920 and 6720 have been awesome. I also own a BCM and along with LMT, those are the two that get shot the most. My suggestion for "one and done" would be between Colt, BCM and LMT. Yeah, it's an awesome ARs buyers market right now. I got my OEM2 for much less than MSRP, where just a few years ago, something like that could easily have been sold for much more.
I haven't put my guns through as heavy (and frequent) use as you do with yours, though I have tried. And if I had more $$$ for ammo and "better" range access. Haha. I feel comfortable that I've put my training guns through "enough" that I am confident with them in terms of function and durability. Like you, I've seen so many home builds and lower quality manufacturer guns shit the bed in classes or even through bench shooting. That's why I also recommend factory guns from known quality manufacturers if the intended use is for defense. As mentioned by many in this thread, it all depends on the intended use of the gun. If it's a project gun to enjoy plinking and just general range fun, then there are many options that will be cheaper than Colt of BCM, but like many things in life, you get what you pay for and personally, I am willing to and recommend spending a little bit more for that.
I think it depends on the person, too. I helped my daughter build her first AR, but that was after she practiced with my Colt 6940 and home-builds. I think she became much more comfortable operating an AR after she saw how it's assembled and what each main part's function is. She, like me, has an engineering mind, and half the fun of shooting is in learning and appreciating the various designs, features and capabilities of the various guns we own.
There's much to be said for assembling a rifle and test-firing it successfully its first time at the range! :thumbsup:
This is easier to recommend if there is a friend or family member with the experience and tools to assist. Otherwise, .... Colt!
I finally built my first AR many years after buying my first AR. Like you, I have an "engineering mind", but for some reason, I wasn't really interested in building an AR when I first got into ARs. I guess I was more interested in shooting techniques than the inner workings of the gun. That and I am not really into tweaking my guns that much, changing this out for that, and keep things pretty close to stock.
That said, I do value in knowing how to assemble the gun and helps with being able to change things out for maintenance purposes. I still don't see myself building many guns. I do find a sense of satisfaction in building something and having it function properly and shoot well. In your case, you already have a proven 6940. If something were to go wrong with your build, then the 6940 will still be there. That's another reason why I recommend a factory build for a first and possibly only AR. Then great to build future ARs.
Again, it's not that I turn my nose at other brands or those who build ARs. Just not my preference. If one is confident in their abilities to build a gun, then rock on. I am just not willing to put my confidence in building ARs for more than range or project guns.
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...And if I had more $$$ for ammo and "better" range access. Haha.
I can't help you with the $$$ for ammo part, but just let me know if you have a day off during the week.
PM inbound.
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Oldfaithful's BCM 14.5" m-4gery in the classifieds.
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=26551.0
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^^ what hound said