2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Reloading => Topic started by: tim808 on April 05, 2017, 12:57:28 PM
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Getting into med range shooting
Will this die set be good for a beginner?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00BHPTDU0/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1491431876&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=redding+dies+223
Oops - looks like it includes a seater
LC brass from Kaleo
I have an old Lee turret press my friend is letting me borrow. He also let me borrow his Lee C press
Looking at Hornady autocharge with straw mod
Varget powder
Cci 400 primers
Sierra tmk probably 69 grain
Getting a bench this weekend
I'm still reading about the things I need - books, pullers, trimmers, swages, calipers, etc
A coworker will have her husband give me 1-2 hour lesson
4/9/17 update
My coworker's husband is a heavy equip mechanic that used to shoot service rifle matches at Puuloa so he was very helpful.
He had a lot of Redding containers/boxes in his drawers. He also uses the Redding dies that I was I looking at. Because he uses a semi, he uses the full length sizing die and crimps the neck.
He liked the micrometer on the seating die. He said the micrometer isn't necessary but makes things easier. I think I'll get the same set since I plan to later get a semi. The hornady auto charge will have to wait....
He also had a device that would trim the diameter of the neck to help make it more concentric.
He had an rcbs electronic powder dispenser....I think those are $250 or so. Nice!
He even had an annealing machine. My coworker said he could do my cases
I got my bench today too.
It was a good day....at least till I looked at my cart in amazon :-)
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The redding die set you have in mind is good to go, it helps when you have a micrometer type adjustable seating die.
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The one thing I would consider replacing when you get around to it is the Lee Turret Press. I am sure I am going to get blasted for this. LOL I have the Lee Turret Press. While I feel it is okay for casual, plinking and making all around pistol ammunition, I think if you are going to spend the big bucks on the National Match Redding dies you should consider buying a good single stage press. It seems pretty extreme to get this set of dies for a beginner so I am assuming you want to make precision ammunition. The Lee turret press has some play in the turret. In other words, when sizing the brass and seating the bullet the turret moves slightly during these procedures. For ammo used for non competition this is fine. Obviously, you chose the very fine Redding dies when you could have just as easily purchased Lee dies or other less expensive dies. This is the basis for my suggestion. Otherwise if I am not correct about this then why not just buy less expensive dies?
Anyway, I love my Lee turret press for what it is. I can make 300 - 400 rounds an hour of straight wall pistol ammo with it. It is good enough for my type of shooting. But I use my RCBS Rock Chucker single stage press to make my rifle ammunition. This is just my preference as I am not trying to tell you what to do, just making some suggestions.
Good luck with your new project. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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You shooting a bolt gun or semi?
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That's a great die set. Like inspector says, if you're spending the bucks for those dies, and your intent is to make the most accurate ammo possible, then you should get a better press as well. I use the Lee dies on my single stage press and it shoots sub MOA through my AR and Bolt Gun. Never shot them beyond 100 yards so don't know how they'd do farther out.
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Hi Dave/Mike
Thank you for your advice! I will look for a better press and look into the rock chucker.
(My friend and I got the Lee years ago when we were newer. He now uses a Dillon I sold him a few years ago for about $50. Because of a reloading incident, I never used either of the presses.
He now uses the Dillon to make ammo for the shooting sports fair with the hra folks. He is so busy with being an RO with HRA and LIFE that he actually doesn't shoot that much)
My other friend just started a few months ago and wants to try long range shooting.
Hi Oldfart,
I recently picked up a cheapy ruger predator 223 bolt rifle.
Later may build a precision AR if my friend is still into long range shooting. But they cost a bit and my 2nd kid will be going to college in 2018-2019......so that toy is a bit down the road.
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I guess if you can afford it, get the expensive match dies then later upgrade the press. I use the $30 Lee dies and haven't had the urge yet to upgrade to a micrometer, yet...
Oldfart's loading system is impressive. I doubt I'll ever get to that level.
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read good stuff about those dies but I dont want to spend that much $$.
I can buy a new single stage and a set of Lee dies with that cost...then again I am Chinese :thumbsup:
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Bolt gun shooters like to neck size for better accuracy.
That expensive Redding set says it's a full length size.
So the case might be loose goosey in your gun which may cause a decrease in accuracy.
Theoretically anyway.
Also that die set comes with a taper crimper which may not be a good thing in your case.
Seems like that die set is designed for semi auto rifles.
I never loaded 223 for a bolt gun so I'm just extrapolating my experiences.
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I'll throw my $.02 in. $210 too pricey for a die set which has dies you may or may not use. Will you use the crimp die? I never crimp 223, I set neck tension to .003" and never had a set back. --- To full length size, bump shoulders, neck size is all personal preference. I bump shoulders and neck size seperately. I use a Redding body die to bump the shoulders back ($30ish), a Lee collet die to size the necks ( I have the 4 die set) and a Forster Bench Rest seating die ($50ish). You could upgrade to the Forster Ultimate Seating Die is you seat to .0005". I didn't feel the need to seat to that tolerance.
I decent single stage press and the Lee 4 die set can produce very good ammo for that $210. My friend loads on the Lee turret press and shoots sub MOA at 100y.
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Thanks guys for all the feedback!
Since we are just starting it may be more prudent to start with more cost effective components and later move to better equipment as we get better.
I think I need to watch some mores reloading videos to better educate myself
I was just watching a video of a Forster co-ax press and learned quite a bit.
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you'd be surprised at what a set of Lee dies and press can do. :thumbsup:
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you'd be surprised at what a set of Lee dies and press can do. :thumbsup:
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This is true.
If push comes to shove, You can reload surprisingly wonderful ammo without any press at all.
Not fast or easy, but quite possible.
Remember the old saying......it's not the tool, ...etc
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Thanks guys for all the feedback!
Since we are just starting it may be more prudent to start with more cost effective components and later move to better equipment as we get better.
I think I need to watch some mores reloading videos to better educate myself
I was just watching a video of a Forster co-ax press and learned quite a bit.
You can always bequeath the old dies to someone here.
Elvis Ammo and Fortune Cookie are big youtube reloaders but I can't stand their accent. My favorite is Johnny's Reloading Bench. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQ7ZytKrmCQnRp9LXXxinJQ
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Thanks guys for all the info and advice!
I'll stay with the Lee turret for now. I'll keep learning about reloading and what dies to get.
Tnx again!
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Thanks guys for all the info and advice!
I'll stay with the Lee turret for now. I'll keep learning about reloading and what dies to get.
Tnx again!
I think that is a good decision for right now. You can make some very fine ammo with the turret press and Lee dies. When you decide that you want to get into competition then you might want to consider getting the micrometer die sets and a more precision press. Also, you can use the turret press like a single stage press for things like just decapping or just swaging primer pockets or using a collet bullet puller etc.
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Here's some essential tools you'll need. RCBS is the highest quality, Lyman in the middle, and Lee at the bottom but they all do the same thing, so it's debatable if one is better than the other.
https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision-Anniversary-Challenger-Kit/dp/B00162RM3E or https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision-Classic-Turret-Press/dp/B008M5TSCG
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002SEZ5PG/ Lee Precision Pacesetter Dies .223
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0063IDE6A/ RCBS Trim Mate Military Crimp Remover-SM
https://www.amazon.com/Frankford-Arsenal-672060-Electronic-Caliper/dp/B0018E9FVC/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004MCMCYE/ Lyman Case Prep Multi Tool
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GU6ZVC/ Hornady Powder Trickler
https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Power-Quick-Trim-Adapter/dp/B00MHZO6MY
https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision-223-Gauge-Holder/dp/B000LC2348
https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-99240-Handbook-10Th-Edition/dp/B01MAUZ71V
Optional but I think it helps.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002SF2ZXU/ Lee Precision Decapping Die
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001B7ZB4Q/ Quick-n-EZ Impact Bullet Puller
https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Products-Small-Rifle-Checker/dp/B00URUE85G
https://www.amazon.com/MTM-Round-Rifle-Ammo-5-56x45/dp/B004XLA4A8
https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision-Powder-Measure-Kit/dp/B000N8OIE8
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I should mention that most of this is available at WGS but they're only open on weekends now, AFAIK.
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Thanks RK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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As long as my ammo and gun shoots MOM I'm happy! :thumbsup:
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What I use for bolt action precision ammo is Redding body dies and Lee collet neck sizer dies. I adjust the body die to bump the shoulder of the case .002" for ease of chambering, but minimal slop. My theory on this is that a consistent case to chamber fit means consistent ammo, thus consistent results. The Lee collet neck sizer sizes from the inside out. My theory is that the inside that contacts the bullet consistently
180 (correction 360)degrees, therefore bullet release with be uniform.
For ulta anal ammo, I sort the case be concentric neck thickness. More than .002" deviation is thrown out. And some cases swing wildly, maybe as much as .010"! Other wise I've trimmed necks to be concentric, but that a lot of work!!
On a side note, lube of the cases when resizing can effect the measurements by some amount. Too much lube can result in variations of .003" to .005", talking about shoulder to base dimension... Too little lube can result in a stuck case. How OCD are you ? LOL
Micrometer seating dies are very helpful in resetting for different bullet types, and playing with seating depth. However, I've found that Lee freefloat seating dies make very concentric ammo and cost a lot less. Trying to reset for different bullet profiles is a PITA though.
I also anneal cases every time I reload them to reduce the variable of work hardening brass.
A plain old Lee cast iron single stage press can make very accurate ammo, but the more expensive presses makes it easier. The mechanical advantage of these presses do the work for you. I have a Forster Co-Ax for single stage accurate reloading, but have done just as good with the Lee cast iron before that. In fact, I still use it for other tasks because it's easier to set up for some things.
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What I use for bolt action precision ammo is Redding body dies and Lee collet neck sizer dies. I adjust the body die to bump the shoulder of the case .002" for ease of chambering, but minimal slop. My theory on this is that a consistent case to chamber fit means consistent ammo, thus consistent results. The Lee collet neck sizer sizes from the inside out. My theory is that the inside that contacts the bullet consistently 180 degrees, therefore bullet release with be uniform.
For ulta anal ammo, I sort the case be concentric neck thickness. More than .002" deviation is thrown out. And some cases swing wildly, maybe as much as .010"! Other wise I've trimmed necks to be concentric, but that a lot of work!!
On a side note, lube of the cases when resizing can effect the measurements by some amount. Too much lube can result in variations of .003" to .005", talking about shoulder to base dimension... Too little lube can result in a stuck case. How OCD are you ? LOL
Micrometer seating dies are very helpful in resetting for different bullet types, and playing with seating depth. However, I've found that Lee freefloat seating dies make very concentric ammo and cost a lot less. Trying to reset for different bullet profiles is a PITA though.
I also anneal cases every time I reload them to reduce the variable of work hardening brass.
A plain old Lee cast iron single stage press can make very accurate ammo, but the more expensive presses makes it easier. The mechanical advantage of these presses do the work for you. I have a Forster Co-Ax for single stage accurate reloading, but have done just as good with the Lee cast iron before that. In fact, I still use it for other tasks because it's easier to set up for some things.
When seating with the Lee dies, do you rotate the case and run it again for concetricity reasons?
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When seating with the Lee dies, do you rotate the case and run it again for concetricity reasons?
I've measured trying the rotation method and not, don't see any difference. The Lee seating die has a floating seater, as long as the case is concentric the bullet get seated concentric.
Deviation of .003" runout or less, is normal.
Also to note, the redding micrometer seating die has the same results. Making me think that the case concentric its is more of a factor that bullet seating. The way to remedy that is consistent case wall thickness, so that the cases stretch and size evenly. IMHO
Also to add, unless one is shooting 1000 yards plus, a couple thou run out isn't going to be much of a factor.
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The only .223 I reloaded so far was .77 SMK OTM and used Redding Series A which are just standard FL dies. Used in a Rockchucker single stage press. Also run the rounds thru a Lee FCD for good measure.
At first I was getting anal about trying to get a consistent COAL but this was mainly due to differing lengths of a OTM type bullet, even for Sierras. I just load not more than 50 rifle cartridges at a time.
At the last gunshow, saw that DCT was selling 500 ct. boxes of Sierra .77 gr. SMK OTM for $130. Should have bought at least one box.
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My theory is that the inside that contacts the bullet consistently 180 degrees, therefore bullet release with be uniform.
When firing, the case expands to the shape of the chamber which is the main reason why full length resizing is not needed if you're using the same case in the same firearm. The concentric neck is an interesting concept but too much work to me for little reward.
Micrometer seating dies are very helpful in resetting for different bullet types, and playing with seating depth. However, I've found that Lee freefloat seating dies make very concentric ammo and cost a lot less. Trying to reset for different bullet profiles is a PITA though.
That's my understanding with the more expensive dies. They're easier and more convenient to work with compared to the cheaper Lee dies. I'm not sure since I've yet to see an experiment that compares the dies for accuracy.
I also anneal cases every time I reload them to reduce the variable of work hardening brass.
Do you have an annealing machine or do you hold the case by hand to the blow torch? Just curious...
A plain old Lee cast iron single stage press can make very accurate ammo, but the more expensive presses makes it easier. The mechanical advantage of these presses do the work for you.
Especially the presses with the cam over, to my understanding...
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I've measured trying the rotation method and not, don't see any difference. The Lee seating die has a floating seater, as long as the case is concentric the bullet get seated concentric.
Deviation of .003" runout or less, is normal.
Also to note, the redding micrometer seating die has the same results. Making me think that the case concentric its is more of a factor that bullet seating. The way to remedy that is consistent case wall thickness, so that the cases stretch and size evenly. IMHO
Also to add, unless one is shooting 1000 yards plus, a couple thou run out isn't going to be much of a factor.
Thanks
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When firing, the case expands to the shape of the chamber which is the main reason why full length resizing is not needed if you're using the same case in the same firearm.
You still need to FL size eventually. after two or three firings the case will be too tight to close the bolt. At this point you consistency will be out the window, some cases may fit while others won't be able to close the bolt... In a semiauto it's a reall no-no to not FL size, slamfires can occur.
The concentric neck is an interesting concept but too much work to me for little reward.
That's my understanding with the more expensive dies. They're easier and more convenient to work with compared to the cheaper Lee dies. I'm not sure since I've yet to see an experiment that compares the dies for accuracy.
Do you have an annealing machine or do you hold the case by hand to the blow torch? Just curious...
I used to spin cases and a cordless driver over a map gas torch. Now I have a Giraud annealing machine to speed things up. I've had quality rifle brass [Lapua] with 10+ reloads on them before a cracked neck. (inspect each and every case for issues before reloading)
Especially the presses with the cam over, to my understanding...
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You still need to FL size eventually. after two or three firings the case will be too tight to close the bolt. At this point you consistency will be out the window, some cases may fit while others won't be able to close the bolt... In a semiauto it's a reall no-no to not FL size, slamfires can occur.
So a quality FL die with light lube won't mess up the shoulder like a cheaper Lee will? I agree that this will only be an issue at 1,000+ yards.
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So a quality FL die with light lube won't mess up the shoulder like a cheaper Lee will? I agree that this will only be an issue at 1,000+ yards.
That is why I do the body separate from the neck in two operations. For competition use, case and neck being consistent and concentric makes a difference at 100 yards out to 600 yards.
I've never had great luck doing everything in one pass. Never comes out to my satisfaction.
Redding body die makes the body straight without excessive undersizing.
Lee collet neck sizer makes the neck straight.
I've tried other dies such as the redding bushing dies. The bushing is a PITA to figure out which one works for you, and the cost of buying different size bushings adds up, not to mention the cost of components and expendables to test, it pushes neck thickness inconsistencies to the interior of the case neck. Pulling the expander ball back up through the neck in a bushing die defeats the whole purpose of using a custom sized bushing, in "normal" dies the neck and the body of the case is grossly sized under then the expander ball pulling back up through the neck messes everything up. Stretches the case a lot, and require a lot of trimming. Cases will work harden, crack necks, and not last very many reloadings.
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I assume you anneal on every firing not only to extend case life but also for consistent neck tension? Do you also turn necks on your Lapua brass? Do you ever prep other brass, say for practice use ,and how do you go about that?
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I assume you anneal on every firing not only to extend case life but also for consistent neck tension? Do you also turn necks on your Lapua brass? Do you ever prep other brass, say for practice use ,and how do you go about that?
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Correct on annealing case necks. The neck tension is more consistent and extends case life.
I did turn necks at one time, but on lapua cases, it is pretty good from the get go. Lapua cases are thicker all around and with proper maintenance they last a long time. I wouldn't use them in a semiautomatic, the action is too rough on the brass and the cost of Lapua brass makes it bolt gun only, for me.
If I use any other brand it is Winchester brass. However I sort the cases by mic-ing the neck thickness. If the thickness varies by more than .003" that case gets reject. Coincidently, those cases will banana after the first firing. So I think that thickness inconsistency ruins throughout the entire length of the case causing uneven stretch.
I've only did this once though when I got a good deal on Winchester cases... it was a lot of work and 1/3 were reject.
I also ream primer pockets to depth, deburr touch hole, and trim all to the same length.