2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: TubbsMcGee on April 20, 2017, 08:40:38 PM
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What's up everyone, new member here. Looking into getting my first AR but I can't decide which route I wanna go with. I know out of the three, the DD has the most goodies and is ready to go but also the most expensive. Then comes the Colt which is a bit less expensive but I'll have more money for ammo and accessories. Lastly, the M&P which is the cheapest out of the three but still a reliable rifle and I'll definitely be able to buy tons of ammo and build it whichever way I want. I know these three are all different classes of rifles in terms of pricing but I know they are all good reliable rifles as well. Especially the DD and Colt. Let me know what y'all think.
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Daniel Defense. Buy once, cry once
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Not gonna lie, I kind of fell in love when I first saw it.
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Which particular models of DD and Colt are you looking at? If you are looking at features like a free float rail, a Colt OEM2 will give you lots of options. Even the Colt OEM1 to a certain extent.
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Which particular models of DD and Colt are you looking at? If you are looking at features like a free float rail, a Colt OEM2 will give you lots of options. Even the Colt OEM1 to a certain extent.
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That's my recommendation. The OEMs are naked versions of the 6920. I'd go with the OEM2 for the free-floated barrel design.
Just add the furniture in the color and style you want, and you have a factory rifle with the mods most people wind up doing anyway, and without a box full of leftover parts you'll never find a use for! :)
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Which particular models of DD and Colt are you looking at? If you are looking at features like a free float rail, a Colt OEM2 will give you lots of options. Even the Colt OEM1 to a certain extent.
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The LE6920 and DDM4V11 specifically. I had no idea about the OEM2. Definitely a free float rail. That is another route I can now go as well. I was looking at the pricing online, the OEM2 seems to go for around $750. So if I piece it together maybe I can save a few hundred bucks instead of going with the DD.
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That's my recommendation. The OEMs are naked versions of the 6920. I'd go with the OEM2 for the free-floated barrel design.
Just add the furniture in the color and style you want, and you have a factory rifle with the mods most people wind up doing anyway, and without a box full of leftover parts you'll never find a use for! :)
Ahh I see. Definitely something for me to think about now.. So many damn options lol.
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The LE6920 and DDM4V11 specifically. I had no idea about the OEM2. Definitely a free float rail. That is another route I can now go as well. I was looking at the pricing online, the OEM2 seems to go for around $750. So if I piece it together maybe I can save a few hundred bucks instead of going with the DD.
yeah, if you are not set on having all DD parts, you can get the OEM2, and add DD grip and buttstock, and then choose a rail you like
OEM2 are a little difficult to find, but is a good route if you are trying for a certain look
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yeah, if you are not set on having all DD parts, you can get the OEM2, and add DD grip and buttstock, and then choose a rail you like
OEM2 are a little difficult to find, but is a good route if you are trying for a certain look
OEM1&2 in stock at Danger Close Tactical, http://www.danger-close-tactical.com/20170404_QUICK_VIEW_OF_IN_STOCK_FIREARMS.pdf
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OEM1&2 in stock at Danger Close Tactical, http://www.danger-close-tactical.com/20170404_QUICK_VIEW_OF_IN_STOCK_FIREARMS.pdf
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if dwayne is sold out since that list was published, he can usually order pretty quickly
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Trying to decide between AR Models is like trying to decide between Playboy Bunnies. You can't have just one. :shake: :shake: :shake:
My suggestion is get the cheapest one with a crap load of ammo and then save up for the expensive one. Then you'll have two. Or save for an AK. Or buy a really nice .22 and shoot all day for a few $. Or get to know some people at the range. You might get hooked on high power bolt guns. Or old military guns. Or Black Powder guns. Or long range revolver shooting. Or....... >:D >:D >:D
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Home defense or hunting?
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The LE6920 and DDM4V11 specifically. I had no idea about the OEM2. Definitely a free float rail. That is another route I can now go as well. I was looking at the pricing online, the OEM2 seems to go for around $750. So if I piece it together maybe I can save a few hundred bucks instead of going with the DD.
I have an OEM2 that I'm waiting to get a rail for. Prob going with the KMR. So similar to the V11.
Let me know if you have trouble finding the OEM2 in stock online. I got mine for a little less, but shopping and CC charge made things about the same as available locally (which they weren't in stock when I was in the market).
My first AR was a DD V5. It was a good gun, but it did have an out-of-spec issue that DD's customer service tried to Bubba and basically ignored the issue, so I sold the gun. I still think they produce good guns, but that experience soured me to their products. This was during the time when they were growing quickly and IMO some things suffered.
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That's my recommendation. The OEMs are naked versions of the 6920. I'd go with the OEM2 for the free-floated barrel design.
Just add the furniture in the color and style you want, and you have a factory rifle with the mods most people wind up doing anyway, and without a box full of leftover parts you'll never find a use for! :)
There are complete uppers in the configuration that I wanted (rail, barrel spec, etc), but the OEM gives me more options and without stuff that usually come of anyways, like you said. I have a growing box of stuff that came off guns. A lot are from stock stuff that came with guns and others and others are stuff that I tried and didn't like. I prob have enough to build a couple guns. Which is how some people sometimes justify a new build. Haha.
Every so often, I send off stuff to people who need a part to finish builds to "pay it forward".
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Seen a DD shoot... Very accurate rifle.. YMMV
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Reality is you will want more than 1 AR. I would get the less expensive Colt, get familiar with the platform and the accessories available to tweak it, then get a DD or other higher end AR. Can't go wrong with a Colt.
It's like winning a hundred in the first couple minutes at the slots and then wanting more instead of walking away.
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I guess the most important is what you plan to do with it? Unless you have some high quality hookups you'll be taking it to the range and shooting paper targets. It's like buying a high end sports car that you can only open up safely for a glorious 30 seconds on the H3. People do that all the time and there's nothing wrong with it, but personally I'd rather save the money for something that I'll get to enjoy more often. BBQ guns are for people who have more money than they know what to do with.
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I guess the most important is what you plan to do with it? Unless you have some high quality hookups you'll be taking it to the range and shooting paper targets. It's like buying a high end sports car that you can only open up safely for a glorious 30 seconds on the H3. People do that all the time and there's nothing wrong with it, but personally I'd rather save the money for something that I'll get to enjoy more often. BBQ guns are for people who have more money than they know what to do with.
I look at it more like buying quality so it will last, have few if any problems and meet the standard specs most after market products will match.
Then, if you happen to have an opportunity to take it to a "professional race track", you won't be embarrassed or worried about its reliability or ability to get the job done.
Poking holes in paper isn't the objective. Practicing, getting used to it, trying various ammo types and brands, getting to know and trust the rifle, making needed adjustments, and taking care of it are all part of the package. If you attend more advanced training and events, you'll be happy you went with a better model over the cheapest thing you could find!
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Mostly buying for home defense, if SHTF, and the occasional range day. I'm leaning towards the DD just because it has everything already besides optics. I want something that will last which I know the DD will and I also know the Colt will as well. Maybe for my second AR, I'd build it up. But as of now, I'm definitely swaying towards the DD.
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Mostly buying for home defense, if SHTF, and the occasional range day. I'm leaning towards the DD just because it has everything already besides optics. I want something that will last which I know the DD will and I also know the Colt will as well. Maybe for my second AR, I'd build it up. But as of now, I'm definitely swaying towards the DD.
Then you should buy something that you're willing to stake your life on. It shouldn't be a "project gun". Buy another one for that. This one needs to be operational and well maintained.
It needs to be used for practice to ensure functionality and familiarization. You don't have to practice with a home defense gun as your primary range gun, but enough so you're completely comfortable with the controls and its operation.
There's also the saying "Two is one, and one is none." Have a spare for backup in case the primary fails or you can't get to it in time.
Lots of advice available when choosing a home defense firearm.
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Another thing to consider in a HD scenario I'd rather spend just enough to get the job done so I don't cry too hard when it gets tagged and thrown into the evidence locker, and for most Oahu housing situations and AR is probably liability-inviting overkill. But now I'm just playing devil's advocate. If the budget will allow you to buy the DD without going into debt or missing bill payments then do it and start saving up for the ammo and accessories next.
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Another thing to consider in a HD scenario I'd rather spend just enough to get the job done so I don't cry too hard when it gets tagged and thrown into the evidence locker, and for most Oahu housing situations and AR is probably liability-inviting overkill. But now I'm just playing devil's advocate. If the budget will allow you to buy the DD without going into debt or missing bill payments then do it and start saving up for the ammo and accessories next.
And, I'm responding to that devil ... :geekdanc:
Anything can happen, but when an 23-year-old in Oklahoma takes out 3 burglars with his AR15, and only took one shot on each, that shows how effective the platform can be in the right hands.
Here's one set of opinions on an AR15 for HD:
http://preparedgunowners.com/2016/07/12/why-i-plan-to-switch-from-a-shotgun-to-ar-15-for-home-defense/
And before anyone mentions the mighty .223 / 5.56 round is going to over-penetrate:
http://preparedgunowners.com/2016/07/14/why-high-powered-5-56-nato-223-ar-15-ammo-is-safer-for-home-defense-fbi-overpenetration-testing/
:shaka:
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Copy that. One would still have to buy and practice with the soft-tip low powered ammo and be okay with it travelling in random directions when it exits the first wall, but I concede the point. From a liability perspective the prosecution might be inclined to sway the jury with mentions of "military grade" this and that, especially if a third party gets injured and comes looking for a civil lawsuit payout. In such a case I'm sure your insurance company would appreciate you using the most boring average ordinary firearm possible.
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Copy that. One would still have to buy and practice with the soft-tip low powered ammo and be okay with it travelling in random directions when it exits the first wall, but I concede the point. From a liability perspective the prosecution might be inclined to sway the jury with mentions of "military grade" this and that, especially if a third party gets injured and comes looking for a civil lawsuit payout. In such a case I'm sure your insurance company would appreciate you using the most boring average ordinary firearm possible.
Depending on the vocabulary used, almost all guns in the mainstream are "military grade" or were based on such a design.
Since the US Gov't has defined the AR-15 as a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) in their RFPs to purchase a bunch of them, it would be easy to object to the characterizations the prosecutor or plaintiff may want to use.
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Mostly buying for home defense, if SHTF, and the occasional range day. I'm leaning towards the DD just because it has everything already besides optics. I want something that will last which I know the DD will and I also know the Colt will as well. Maybe for my second AR, I'd build it up. But as of now, I'm definitely swaying towards the DD.
Another option is BCM. They offer complete uppers in many different configurations. That's how I got my BCM. Ordered a complete upper from a BCM vendor and a complete BCM lower.
Not trying to steer you away from DD, but there are certainly other quality options.
Since you mentioned home defense, I think you're very much on the right track here, which IMO is a complete gun from a known quality manufacturer. Shoot it and get to know what ammo works well (hopefully all).
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Another thing to consider in a HD scenario I'd rather spend just enough to get the job done so I don't cry too hard when it gets tagged and thrown into the evidence locker, and for most Oahu housing situations and AR is probably liability-inviting overkill. But now I'm just playing devil's advocate. If the budget will allow you to buy the DD without going into debt or missing bill payments then do it and start saving up for the ammo and accessories next.
The aspect of people being concerned with a HD gun being help as evidence is something I've heard often, but I personally never gave it much thought. That would be like being concerned about how you deal with muscle pain after you win a marathon. The main thing is the gun did its job and you are alive.
Maybe none of my guns are that expensive, "high end", etc that I would miss them very much. A $5-6k Wilson Combat 1911 wouldn't be my first choice for HD, but I guess it would suck if that gun were to be held as evidence.
Liability due to overkill is another aspect that seems to prop up often. Yeah, grandpa, it's unfair if your grandson chose to break into someone's house and that person was armed and able and willing to defend themselves (reference to OK incident). As long as I didn't wrecklessly blast off dozens of rounds indiscriminately, I acted in self defense, only the bad guy is down, and my loved ones are safe, then I'm willing to roll the dice that way.
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Good read on the effectiveness of the AR15 for self defense.
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-a-myth-that-enemy-combatants-usually-take-a-few-rounds-of-5-56-NATO-in-the-torso-and-are-still-standing/answer/Kenneth-Reese?srid=uriEI
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Good read on the effectiveness of the AR15 for self defense.
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-a-myth-that-enemy-combatants-usually-take-a-few-rounds-of-5-56-NATO-in-the-torso-and-are-still-standing/answer/Kenneth-Reese?srid=uriEI
"When you hear soldiers talking about shooting people in the chest with 5.56mm rounds and then watching them walk away, what they are describing is called missing."
I'll have to forward this article to one of my good friends. He's in the guard and he's into guns as well. Anyways, one of his active duty friends in his shop shits on ARs/5.56 all the time. Saying that he's seen too many people shot (or assumed) shot with 5.56 and it zips right through them. So he totally swears by AKs as he's seen first hand the damage that they do. I never thought to ask him if he ever saw the person that the 5.56 zipped through to verify a hit.
Seriously, I am sure the AK is devastating as well.
Regarding 5.56, I haven't seen anyone shot with it. I've heard many reports, both first hand by vets and combat medics, on effectiveness of 5.56 as well as reports of occasionally zipping through someone. Never asked about details of where the hit was that zipped through. I had always assumed that for any shot, be it 9 mm(assuming proven HP ammo) or 5.56, shot placement is key. That said, funny things happen.
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Good discussion. Breaks down the major factors in deciding between HD options.
http://www.usacarry.com/should-you-use-a-handgun-or-long-gun-for-home-defense/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=USACarry
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Tough call as the one major factor is our legal climate in HI. Shoot a crumb and you may spend a very long time in jail. The media would likely portray that crumb as just trying to steal to support 5 kids and you, the law abiding citizen, trying to defend your family, put an end to the crumbs dream.
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Tough call as the one major factor is our legal climate in HI. Shoot a crumb and you may spend a very long time in jail. The media would likely portray that crumb as just trying to steal to support 5 kids and you, the law abiding citizen, trying to defend your family, put an end to the crumbs dream.
I hear ya. My personal choice for HD is handgun with HP ammo. My place is small and handgun easier to get to and have ready to go as compared to any long gun I own. Even then, if the person wasn't armed, I would expect the same questioning from the public.
One of my best friends is a former prosecutor and we've discussed this many times. He's actually taken the thought process much further than me since he has little kids (where I don't).
That said, I would have no problem using a long gun over a handgun for HD if it was all I had or felt that it would be better than using a handgun. Yeah, tough call and one everyone has to consider. But I think the important thing is the mindset and have put some thought into it.
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First AR. Colt, BCM or LMT.
It won't be your last.
Once your addicted, you'll start scouring all the forums and websites and magazines and see all the stuff that's out there.
Do it up on your second one.
These also hold resale value better than most if you ever decide to sell to "fund a new project" (a reason commonly seen in the classifieds by the hopelessly addicted :crazy:)
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Colt oem 1 or 2. $650 online
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Colt oem 1 or 2. $650 online
If you can find them for that price and in stock, with reasonable shipping, jump on them!
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GLOCK :closed:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:popcorn:
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Buds Gun Shop.
Colt OEM 1or 2 for just under $685 (cash even cheaper)
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/2680/COLT+LE6920-OEM2+CAR+5.56+16+NO+FURNMT
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Either colt or dd are great choices
Then get a couple lowers to build later so it's custom from the bottom up
My 1st ar purchase I walked in planning to get 1
Walked out with 1 ar and 3 lowers too
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Buds Gun Shop.
Colt OEM 1or 2 for just under $685 (cash even cheaper)
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/2680/COLT+LE6920-OEM2+CAR+5.56+16+NO+FURNMT
That's a really good price too and Buds is a solid place as well. I'm tempted to buy another, and I already have one in hand waiting on parts to complete...
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I second the previous comments touting BCM. I too had a hard time deciding on AR-15s recently and looked all around and for their reputation and price, the BCM complete uppers was something I was going to go with. I was looking at a BCM Mid Length Upper with just the standard A2 front sight post and was going to pick up a lower locally. Wasn't going to go crazy with match grade triggers or anything of that sort. Single stage Mil-Spec is fine for me and my intended use as a defensive gun, although my primary home defense gun is a Mossberg 500 Thunder Ranch.
However, found a Colt 6721 at the $900.00 mark and just added the aftermarket Magpul furniture and recently changed the stock to a BCM Mod 0, which is one of the more sturdy collapsible stocks out there for less than 60.00, and lastly a Raptor Ambi Charging handle.
No optics yet, thinking about investing in an Aimpoint PRO or looking at a more economical and fairly tough Primary Arms Advanced Micro Dot, but I swapped out the Magpul Mbus for a fixed DD rear sight while there is no optic and will switch back once I do decide on an optic.
$$$$ is a big factor to me and altogether I believe I put in about $1,250.00 on this rifle after the aftermarket "parts" but keeping the OEM BCG and trigger and again it does what I need it to. No plans to shoot competitively at all and I have about 800 rounds through it since owning it in December.
DD is a fine rifle, but if you can get a Colt and make modest upgrades you can save some cash OR definitely look at supporting BCM. Their KMR hand guards feel fantastic and their patented cross bolt lockup at the barrel nut might be one of the most secure systems today.
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Everyone has already pretty much said it, but once cry once. Nothing sucks more then settling for something you really don't want then. Save up till you can buy what you actually want and you won't regret it. In the long run you'll spend more money trying to make your m&p or colt into a DD. Good luck with the decision man.
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Id go down to the Humane Society and find the biggest dog. Thats official advice from our local leading law enforcement organization.
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After thinking about it for a while, I have decided to go with the DDM4V11. After reading through the replies, there are dozens of ways I can go about this. BUT for my first AR, I'd like to get something complete, ready to go, and proven. I have no doubt in my mind that I will eventually get a second AR and when I do, I will most likely build it up using parts from BCM or Colt. Appreciate the advice fellas :shaka:
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After thinking about it for a while, I have decided to go with the DDM4V11. After reading through the replies, there are dozens of ways I can go about this. BUT for my first AR, I'd like to get something complete, ready to go, and proven. I have no doubt in my mind that I will eventually get a second AR and when I do, I will most likely build it up using parts from BCM or Colt. Appreciate the advice fellas :shaka:
Right on :thumbsup:
There are certainly LOTS of ways to with ARs right now, which is a great thing! Both availability and pricing. The pricing is good on the guns as well as ammo. I encourage you to keep things simple and shoot it lots. You'll get a better sense of what you want/need and what you don't want/need. I have a whole box full of stuff that I thought I wanted/needed but didn't. However, that's part of the fun of ARs.
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After thinking about it for a while, I have decided to go with the DDM4V11. After reading through the replies, there are dozens of ways I can go about this. BUT for my first AR, I'd like to get something complete, ready to go, and proven. I have no doubt in my mind that I will eventually get a second AR and when I do, I will most likely build it up using parts from BCM or Colt. Appreciate the advice fellas :shaka:
Do check out a Raptor AXTS Ambi Charging Handle tho!
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Sorry I'm not going to read 3 pages, but below is what made me buy my MPII
1) Best bang for the buck ($700)
A) I'm not MIL or LE, so I don't need a rifle that has been analyzed under a microscope. As in Colt does this. And my everyday life doesn't depend on my rifle
B) I don't need a free floated barrel because I wont be shooting beyond 100yrds (KHSC), unless I get extra cash and want to make the rifle look cooler.
2) I was going to change some parts anyways (pistol grip, but stock, muzzle break) and these parts are cheap
3) I'm not going to use the rifle for hunting or precision shooting so the current factory grouping is acceptable
So in the end for me, why should I spend $1K on a colt and still have to spend money to change the parts above or $1400+ on a DD when I can buy 2 MPII's for that price? Or 1 MPII and have plenty of money for ammo and other accessories or training.
But OP, it's your money. You know what your goals are and what will make you happy. These rifles should last you at least 20 years, so you don't want any regrets.
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The M&P 15 has very favorable reviews on youtube. You should also check out Aero Precision's complete rifles. Their AC-15 is $560 on Brownells right now....