Post by: westside22 on May 09, 2017, 05:12:05 PM
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Post by: westside22 on May 09, 2017, 06:01:21 PM
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Post by: westside22 on May 09, 2017, 06:06:19 PM
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Post by: dustoff003 on May 09, 2017, 06:39:36 PM
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Post by: rklapp on May 10, 2017, 12:12:21 AM
I didn't know that unenrolling was an option.
Post by: London808 on May 10, 2017, 06:47:13 AM
My VEPR arrived at the FFL on 12/9, dammit.
I didn't know that unenrolling was an option.
Unenrolling is not an option, HPD is lieing about it.
When they unenroll you it turns of the reporting function, BUT your information is still kept by the FBI and the state criminal justice data center, that's what the waiver is for.
Post by: omnigun on May 10, 2017, 09:11:56 AM
Unenrolling is not an option, HPD is lieing about it.
When they unenroll you it turns of the reporting function, BUT your information is still kept by the FBI and the state criminal justice data center, that's what the waiver is for.
Surely this should be illegal, someone should sue. At least from the paper notice posted that means its false.
Post by: dustoff003 on May 10, 2017, 09:21:08 AM
Surely this should be illegal, someone should sue. At least from the paper notice posted that means its false.Sue then.
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Post by: rklapp on May 10, 2017, 10:54:32 AM
Unenrolling is not an option, HPD is lieing about it.So the FBI puts an asterisk next to my name and info...
When they unenroll you it turns of the reporting function, BUT your information is still kept by the FBI and the state criminal justice data center, that's what the waiver is for.
Post by: London808 on May 10, 2017, 11:10:16 AM
So the FBI puts an asterisk next to my name and info...
That and they run your finger print against every crime ever committed or Committed in the future.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on May 10, 2017, 11:23:42 AM
That and they run your finger print against every crime ever committed or Committed in the future.
It doesn't even require that you are charged with any crime. Any "Law Enforcement Encounter" in which your ID is checked will result in a report to RAPBACK.
Post by: macsak on May 10, 2017, 11:54:54 AM
Surely this should be illegal, someone should sue. At least from the paper notice posted that means its false.
we look forward to the announcement of your lawsuit
Post by: rklapp on May 10, 2017, 12:31:49 PM
That and they run your finger print against every crime ever committed or Committed in the future.For all perpetuity, the FBI will notify HPD about any incident. HPD will look on the list and determine I no longer have firearms. What a waste of government resources.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on May 10, 2017, 12:56:37 PM
For all perpetuity, the FBI will notify HPD about any incident. HPD will look on the list and determine I no longer have firearms. What a waste of government resources.
HPD still uses carbon-copy forms and typewriters to fill them in.
Efficiency isn't their hallmark!
Post by: omnigun on May 10, 2017, 01:13:16 PM
Sue then.
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we look forward to the announcement of your lawsuit
Don't plan to leave the island. Not in rap back.
Post by: rklapp on May 10, 2017, 02:09:55 PM
HPD still uses carbon-copy forms and typewriters to fill them in.Agreed. I also wonder about the medical evaluation process. I imagine a room filled with Oompa Loompas sorting through stacks of Kaiser medical records.
Efficiency isn't their hallmark!
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on May 10, 2017, 02:17:03 PM
Agreed. I also wonder about the medical evaluation process. I imagine a room filled with Oompa Loompas sorting through stacks of Kaiser medical records.
Actually it's simpler than that.
Scenario #1 --
HPD to HMO: Anything in this person's record related to mental health?
HMO to HPD: No.
HPD: Processes permit.
Scenario #2 --
HPD to HMO: Anything in this person's record related to mental health?
HMO to HPD: Yes, but we aren't going to say if it's serious enough to warrant denying their second amendment rights.
HPD: Denies permit. Requires applicant to find and pay for another doctor to issue a letter saying you are mentally fit to possess a firearm.
All it takes for a denial is a "flag" that you were a "behavioral services" patient at one time, regardless of the reason.
Post by: London808 on May 10, 2017, 03:03:20 PM
Actually it's simpler than that.
Scenario #1 --
HPD to HMO: Anything in this person's record related to mental health?
HMO to HPD: No.
HPD: Processes permit.
Scenario #2 --
HPD to HMO: Anything in this person's record related to mental health?
HMO to HPD: Yes, but we aren't going to say if it's serious enough to warrant denying their second amendment rights.
HPD: Denies permit. Requires applicant to find and pay for another doctor to issue a letter saying you are mentally fit to possess a firearm.
All it takes for a denial is a "flag" that you were a "behavioral services" patient at one time, regardless of the reason.
Actually it's worse then that.
HPD to HMO, Is there any medical reason this person can't own firearms,
If HMO was era no then you good to go,
If HMO wanders yes then your denied,
If the HMO follows the law and says they don't make that determination here are the records, HPD decides it's not qualified to make that determination and denies you even tho their is no medical evidence to suggest you should be denied.
The only way to get in denied is to find a doctor to sign a form saying your medically sound.
Post by: macsak on May 10, 2017, 04:15:35 PM
Don't plan to leave the island. Not in rap back.
typical
tell others what to think/do rather than stepping up
Post by: TURBOJ on May 10, 2017, 04:42:35 PM
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on May 10, 2017, 07:34:38 PM
Is it true that if you hold government security clearance you're already in rap back?
If you really want to know, do some research into the FBI Next Generation Identification (NGI) System.
"Am I in RAPBACK" is a two-part answer.
Part I: If you are providing fingerprints, photos, retina scans, DNA and other biometric identity information, you are added to the NGI database.
Part II: HPD wants to SUBSCRIBE themselves to the NGI reporting system, which is RAPBACK. If you ever encounter law enforcement in any state, the Hawaii Criminal Justice Data Center receives a report on your activity. They then send the information to HPD or anyone else who subscribed to receive your reports in RAPBACK.
So, even if the subscription is canceled in accordance with the posted policy, your information will forever be in the FBI database.
If having a clearance adds you to the NGI database, you are already there regardless of whether the agency adding you subscribed to RAPBACK. Only HPD can subscribe you so that they receive updates for the purpose of assessing your fitness to possess firearms.
Post by: mrgaf on May 10, 2017, 08:02:48 PM
Sue then.
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Nice reply however I say to you and everyone else who loves to give wisecrack replies to an honest question, what ever happened to the legal action that a lot of us donated to or did I miss something?
Thanks....
Post by: London808 on May 10, 2017, 08:27:39 PM
Nice reply however I say to you and everyone else who loves to give wisecrack replies to an honest question, what ever happened to the legal action that a lot of us donated to or did I miss something?
Thanks....
It's still ongoing,
Several things have happened that have kind of put things on hold,
Change of president,
Change of AG,
Future appointment of federal judges,
Change in police chief,
Appointment of a new AG,
All of these things can have a serious effect on the outcome of any legal outcome,
Not to mention we have a little over $5k when we need closer to $15k,
I have been working on some league angels that may be able to go through the state courts which I feel i can file myself. They won't get rid of rapback but will make it harder for HPD to enforce/pay for it.
(When I say HPD I mean all law enforcement and state and city agency's involved, it's just easier to say HPD)
Post by: dustoff003 on May 10, 2017, 09:12:06 PM
Nice reply however I say to you and everyone else who loves to give wisecrack replies to an honest question, what ever happened to the legal action that a lot of us donated to or did I miss something?
Thanks....
I think you missed something. It was Omni's post about rap backs legality and the fact that some one should sue. If he feels that way let him be the one to bring suit, not wise crack it was serious. I have donated to London's cause and to the HRA-PAC. London has made updates to the main rap back thread. I see now he has made an update here above now also.
If everyone on this forum put there money where their keyboard was he could have met his goal prescribed by his counsel. To those who haven't donated please do so any amount helps.
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=25686.0
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Post by: rklapp on May 10, 2017, 09:40:57 PM
Is it true that if you hold government security clearance you're already in rap back?As I understand, teachers or those in a "position of trust" are already included into the system.
Post by: mrgaf on May 10, 2017, 09:43:25 PM
It's still ongoing,
Several things have happened that have kind of put things on hold,
Change of president,
Change of AG,
Future appointment of federal judges,
Change in police chief,
Appointment of a new AG,
All of these things can have a serious effect on the outcome of any legal outcome,
Not to mention we have a little over $5k when we need closer to $15k,
I have been working on some league angels that may be able to go through the state courts which I feel i can file myself. They won't get rid of rapback but will make it harder for HPD to enforce/pay for it.
(When I say HPD I mean all law enforcement and state and city agency's involved, it's just easier to say HPD)
Thanks for the update bro. Really appreciate it.
Post by: mrgaf on May 10, 2017, 09:49:39 PM
I think you missed something. It was Omni's post about rap backs legality and the fact that some one should sue. If he feels that way let him be the one to bring suit, not wise crack it was serious. I have donated to London's cause and to the HRA-PAC. London has made updates to the main rap back thread. I see now he has made an update here above now also.
If everyone on this forum put there money where their keyboard was he could have met his goal prescribed by his counsel. To those who haven't donated please do so any amount helps.
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=25686.0
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Understand but instead of wisecracks me thinks if the comment would have been like London's and yours it would have beem more appropriate. Yes, I contributed and plan to contribute again in the very near future. Bottom line is we all have to put up the bucks if we're going to defeat this Rap Back as a collective body..... thanks....
Post by: omnigun on May 10, 2017, 11:01:46 PM
I think you missed something. It was Omni's post about rap backs legality and the fact that some one should sue. If he feels that way let him be the one to bring suit, not wise crack it was serious. I have donated to London's cause and to the HRA-PAC. London has made updates to the main rap back thread. I see now he has made an update here above now also.
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Well seeing as the suit doesn't apply to me makes it kinda hard eh? But I guess in your make believe world view it isn't. People can sue anyone regardless of personal involvement. I was actually being serious in my previous comment.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on May 10, 2017, 11:22:04 PM
As I understand, teachers or those in a "position of trust" are already included into the system.
That's true, but you're talking about employment where the workers have daily contact with children. If one is caught and arrested in Vegas having sex with a minor, that goes directly to safety of the children they teach.
To equate that with exercising a Constitutional right where the mere accusation of domestic violence in another state would likely be enough to strip you of that right before any trial or chance to clear your name is wrong.
It's not just positions of trust that are in RAPBACK. It's sex offenders, parolees, felons and probationers.
Given the way the gun laws are in Hawaii, which group do you believe lawmakers see gun owners as part of: Trusted Positions, or Criminals?
Post by: dustoff003 on May 11, 2017, 06:02:43 AM
Go buy a new/used firearm then so you can be rap backed. There is nothing make believe about me cupcake.
Well seeing as the suit doesn't apply to me makes it kinda hard eh? But I guess in your make believe world view it isn't. People can sue anyone regardless of personal involvement. I was actually being serious in my previous comment.
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Post by: rklapp on May 11, 2017, 08:40:35 AM
That's true, but you're talking about employment where the workers have daily contact with children. If one is caught and arrested in Vegas having sex with a minor, that goes directly to safety of the children they teach.Totally agree. Like I said, complete waste of government time and resources. I used to post gun related things on Facebook but with the liberal gun laws here, decided it was no longer worth the risk.
To equate that with exercising a Constitutional right where the mere accusation of domestic violence in another state would likely be enough to strip you of that right before any trial or chance to clear your name is wrong.
It's not just positions of trust that are in RAPBACK. It's sex offenders, parolees, felons and probationers.
Given the way the gun laws are in Hawaii, which group do you believe lawmakers see gun owners as part of: Trusted Positions, or Criminals?
I have been working on some league angels that may be able to go through the state courts which I feel i can file myself. They won't get rid of rapback but will make it harder for HPD to enforce/pay for it.In order for a case to go to court, there has to be a financially or emotionally damaged complainant. That's why I think London is a hero.
(When I say HPD I mean all law enforcement and state and city agency's involved, it's just easier to say HPD)
Post by: omnigun on May 11, 2017, 09:23:52 AM
Go buy a new/used firearm then so you can be rap backed. There is nothing make believe about me cupcake.
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Sure then proceed to move off the island so I can sue and de-register all my guns. Easy as pie! Can do that in 30 minutes or less. :crazy:
Post by: London808 on May 11, 2017, 10:25:23 AM
The fact that the FBI requires you to sign the waiver should tell you that without it they can not put you in rapback.
Any information given to the FBI is kept indefinitely, there is no removal option,
HPD is used g rapback on the belief that all gun owners in Hawaii are likely to commit crimes and that if they do they will commit further crimes by not surrendering their firearms.
Post by: London808 on May 11, 2017, 10:28:54 AM
Even if you are in rapback a database because of a job or previous encounter you are not in it with a little check box that says firearms and your every interaction with police officers is not reported across state lines to other agency's.
Post by: punaperson on May 11, 2017, 10:49:54 AM
HPD is used g rapback on the belief that all gun owners in Hawaii are likely to commit crimes and that if they do they will commit further crimes by not surrendering their firearms.The entire structure of Hawaii's "firearms laws" (registration, permits to acquire, training requirements, waiting periods, bans on many forms of arms (electronic, expandable batons, "assault pistols", etc., etc., etc.) is a form of "prior restraint", wherein all people expressing a desire to exercise their Second Amendment-guaranteed rights are considered de facto criminals who in a sense are on parole or probation prior to having committed (much less be convicted of) any actual (so far) crime and must have as much information about them as possible recorded by the state (in both senses) for the sake of "public safety".
That's why in testimony before the legislature 15 years ago the Honolulu chief of police testified that they spent 50,000 man hours per year processing "registration" data and had never used any of that information to solve even one single crime.
Do the math. Obviously they don't have that information on firearms owners for "public safety"/crime solving purposes. RapBack is just another extension and intrusion of the surveillance state. And not one single oath-taking government "public servant" in the entire state of Hawaii is willing to do anything about it... except come up with more similar intrusions and infringements and the taxpayer money to fund them.
Post by: rklapp on May 11, 2017, 10:57:59 AM
This is not just a 2nd amendment issue it's a 4th, 5th and 14th ammendment issue as well.Agreed. The Founding Fathers used British history as a bad example of what not to do including King James confiscating firearms from the Protestants. The entire process seems to lack due process to me.
Even if you are in rapback a database because of a job or previous encounter you are not in it with a little check box that says firearms and your every interaction with police officers is not reported across state lines to other agency's.
Post by: mrgaf on May 11, 2017, 06:21:52 PM
Agreed. The Founding Fathers used British history as a bad example of what not to do including King James confiscating firearms from the Protestants. The entire process seems to lack due process to me.
Exactly!
Post by: westside22 on May 13, 2017, 09:54:21 PM
As I understand, teachers or those in a "position of trust" are already included into the system.Exactly what is "in a position of trust" mean? Would/does that mean our lawmakers, governor, police, etc.?
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Post by: eyeeatingfish on May 14, 2017, 09:18:31 PM
Exactly what is "in a position of trust" mean? Would/does that mean our lawmakers, governor, police, etc.?
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As Understand it, the police are entered into the system. As for elected officials, I do not know but I would hope so.
Post by: westside22 on May 14, 2017, 09:23:10 PM
As Understand it, the police are entered into the system. As for elected officials, I do not know but I would hope so.I certainly would hope so as well.
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Post by: London808 on May 15, 2017, 07:02:22 AM
As Understand it, the police are entered into the system. As for elected officials, I do not know but I would hope so.
Then you understand wrong, HPD officers are only entered into the system if they register a personal firearm.
Post by: punaperson on May 15, 2017, 07:13:51 AM
Then you understand wrong, HPD officers are only entered into the system if they register a personal firearm.So now we know that "bearing (fire)arms outside the home" does not, in and of itself, put one in the category of "position of trust". Good to know.
Post by: westside22 on May 15, 2017, 05:50:42 PM
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Post by: London808 on May 15, 2017, 06:05:07 PM
Can an OFF DUTY officer carry his duty weapon?
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Yes
Post by: westside22 on May 15, 2017, 08:32:22 PM
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Post by: London808 on May 15, 2017, 08:58:05 PM
With that alone require that he/she be on the rap back list?
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No because they are not required to have a concealed carry permit to carry.
Post by: punaperson on May 16, 2017, 06:41:14 AM
2. The statistics from states with millions of CCW "civilian" licensees show that those licensees commit fewer crimes than cops (between 1/3 and 1/6 depending on which crimes are included).
3. Hawaii "civilians" MUST (pay to) be enrolled in Rapback if they apply for a "license to acquire" or "long gun permit", even if they do not complete the transaction and remain a firearm-free individual.
I challenge anyone to reconcile the above statements/facts while using the terms "logical", "rational", "commonsense" and "public safety".
Post by: rklapp on May 16, 2017, 12:56:37 PM