2aHawaii
General Topics => Strategies and Tactics => Topic started by: Kingkeoni on February 10, 2012, 09:10:01 AM
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Shotgun or handgun.
What is the ideal weapon for home defense?
What is your designated home defense firearm?
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Carbine. I go back and forth between an M1 carbine and a Winchester model 94 in .357 magnum.
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Ideal weapon is both. Right now my HD is a handgun, because my shotguns are on the mainland, but that'll change soon enough. The reason I say both is that shotguns are a two-handed affair, which is fine if you're all bunkered down in the back bedroom waiting for Mr. Bad Guy to come to you, but not so good if you're going to have to go down the hallway, across the living room, downstairs, scoop up a squirmy toddler, and retrace your steps.
Shotgun is good for barricade, handgun better for moving around the house to take care of other stuff.
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Ideal weapon is both. Right now my HD is a handgun, because my shotguns are on the mainland, but that'll change soon enough. The reason I say both is that shotguns are a two-handed affair, which is fine if you're all bunkered down in the back bedroom waiting for Mr. Bad Guy to come to you, but not so good if you're going to have to go down the hallway, across the living room, downstairs, scoop up a squirmy toddler, and retrace your steps.
Shotgun is good for barricade, handgun better for moving around the house to take care of other stuff.
Agreed. I think I feel the need for a shotgun coming.....
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Agreed. I think I feel the need for a shotgun coming.....
I'm really lusting after the KelTec KSG, but for now the old Mossy 835 will have to do. Going to bring that one back from vacay this spring.
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Handgun maybe a "Tacticool" shotgun later. :)
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I'm really lusting after the KelTec KSG, but for now the old Mossy 835 will have to do. Going to bring that one back from vacay this spring.
those 870's everyone is showing off look pretty kewl!!!
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those 870's everyone is showing off look pretty kewl!!!
True, but I like the fact that the KSG is shorter than an outstretched arm. Looks pretty maneuverable, but the reliability and method of reloading might be deal-breakers. Don't know until I try it, though! :D
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If I have time, both. But if not I'll grab my shotty.
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glock!
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True, but I like the fact that the KSG is shorter than an outstretched arm. Looks pretty maneuverable, but the reliability and method of reloading might be deal-breakers. Don't know until I try it, though! :D
I guess if you are talking about having to try out a few shotguns before we decide I guess you could twist my arm into it! :D
The problem I have is not I am not much of a shotgun person. I have a lot confidence in my abilities with my .357 Magnum and I have very little experience with a shotgun. In an emergency if I had both to choose from I would probably take the .357 Magnum nine out of ten times. Maybe even if the shotgun was the better choice under the circumstances. Instinct and old habits die hard.
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I strongly believe in most HD situations, the shotgun is the better choice.
My first, most accessible weapon, however, is a pistol.
The main reason is accessibility.
I can get into the handgun safe in 2 seconds.
Now if someone gives me warning that they're going to break in, rob and hurt my family... I promise, I'll be waiting with a loaded 12 gauge.
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My go to has always been the shotgun. My Mossy 500 with the home defense barrel was always ready. Part of it to me is the intimidation factor and that iconic sound of a pump action shotty. I wish I had access to some less than lethal rounds like those heavy rubber slugs though. Wall penetration is and always will be a concern of mine. This in turn started me thinking that maybe I should look into a .410 shotgun now that there are so many various types of self defense ammo with the niche market created by revolvers like the Taurus Judge. Then I would have something light, manuverable in a home, manageble recoil if I had a child or other family memeber, and still have some decent umph.
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I know pistol/shotgun is touted as the ideal combo, but for me:
1st: J frame
2nd: AR and M&P9
Once I get my MI AK forend, the AR will be replaced by a sidefolder AK.
I figure if I need more than the 5 in the J frame, I want more than single digit capacity of a shotty on tap. God forbid I ever need more than my "J", but if I do I'm bringing it!
The M&P is there as a backup pistol.
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Right now handgun is what's available so that's what I will use. A defensive shotgun is in the plans, probably a 20g so everyone can shoot it.
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Glock .40
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Carbine. I go back and forth between an M1 carbine and a Winchester model 94 in .357 magnum.
:thumbsup:
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I go with a combo as well, Remington 870 (see show off 870 thread) for me and Sig P226 9mm for the little lady
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Depends where I am and which tool I am closest to. I have a loaded 9mm Sig in a pistol safe in my home office inches from desk. And, I have a loaded 870 in my gun safe in my bedroom closet along with a loaded S&W 357 magnum. Have to agree with kala201, nothing like the sound of the action of a pump action shotgun for deterrence.
Our bedroom is our safe room for us to hunker down & wait for LE. And, the intruder has hot lead waiting for them if they decide to bust through the solid core door.
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Next to my bed I used to have my 1911 Condition 1 and under my bed was my Mossberg 500 tube full, cruiser ready (clear it, selector on fire, drop hammer, then load tube). I liked that setup.
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20 ga coach shotgun with birdshot for me. Short, light, double triggers and hammers. Neighbors are way to close and lots of children in the home so I need to worry about over penetration.
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20 ga coach shotgun with birdshot for me. Short, light, double triggers and hammers. Neighbors are way to close and lots of children in the home so I need to worry about over penetration.
Some meth head with a heavy jacket breaks in the house, you'll rethink the birdshot decision.
Bird shot is for birds.
If over penetration is a concern, I would recommend #4 buck.
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/federal-personal-defense-shotshells-pd2564b-gauge-pellets-1100-buck-buckshot-shot-rdbx-p-118327.html (http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/federal-personal-defense-shotshells-pd2564b-gauge-pellets-1100-buck-buckshot-shot-rdbx-p-118327.html)
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Bird shot is for birds.
Truth. The linked picture is what happens when you're shot by birdshot at 8 feet from a Taurus judge. The guy was attacked as he was leaving a club and was shot by the mugger as he tried to escape. You can see from the picture that the pellets didn't even break the skin for the most part. According to the victim he was still aware of everything that was going on, just surprised.
This also matches what my friend who worked as an x-ray technician up in Oregon told me about gunshot wounds. Birdshot really won't do much to human sized targets.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Mantis877/Judgepointblank.jpg (http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Mantis877/Judgepointblank.jpg)
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+1 for #4 buck or bigger.
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+1 for #4 buck or bigger.
I read somewhere that #1 is the best combination of a large number of pellets combined with reliable 12" penetration depth. The cross-sectional area of a load of #1 is much bigger than 00, but it still will reliably get deep enough to poke holes in the blood-bearing organs. Which is the whole point, of course.
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Truth. The linked picture is what happens when you're shot by birdshot at 8 feet from a Taurus judge. The guy was attacked as he was leaving a club and was shot by the mugger as he tried to escape. You can see from the picture that the pellets didn't even break the skin for the most part. According to the victim he was still aware of everything that was going on, just surprised.
This also matches what my friend who worked as an x-ray technician up in Oregon told me about gunshot wounds. Birdshot really won't do much to human sized targets.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Mantis877/Judgepointblank.jpg (http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Mantis877/Judgepointblank.jpg)
A Taurus judge is hardly the gold standard by which to, er, judge.
Bird shot (or any shot) from a shotgun with a barrel more than 4" long expands at a rate of about 1" per yard traveled. So at 1 yard, that 1 ounce clump of shot is only 1" larger than when it exited the bore. It might as well be a slug. At 2 yards, it's all of 2" wider than it was when it exited the bore, an overall pattern less than 3" in diameter. Might as well be buckshot. At 3 yards, we're approaching a diameter of 4", about the same level of effectiveness as #4 shot. Somewhere around 5 yards, the pellets are far enough apart that they're now losing the effective of a coherent mass and becoming tiny, individual projectiles.
5 yards is pretty far for a defensive shooting situation.
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I acknowledge that the Judge is not the best home defense gun which is why I mentioned the gun in the first place ;D. I want to report as much of the facts that I can get a hold of. ;)
Would you be willing to share your sources regarding the ballistic effect of birdshot at close range? I know shooting my Mossberg 500 at 7 yards I get a spray of pellets all over the target with an 18" barrel. It that with a particular brand of birdshot?
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hd comes down to options and limitations
shot of any size may limit your shooting options/lanes ie shooting past /over non threats
any longun will limit corridor /hallway movement
knives/ impact weapons and sprays are limited to 15 feet or less
most modern pistol calibers will penetrate at least one wall of a house
your caliber might need to penetrate a barrier to get a bg ( couch / interior door )
if you stash multiple firearms / weapons the bg might already be armed with your stuff
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When I was reading up on home defense ammo I came across a posting that said, "if you shoot birdshot at a home invader, you will then have an angry home invader" or something to that effect.
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Please consider that I read a few articles on this many years ago and that I am trying to just repeat what they said. My memory may not be that great in this case. I believe the experts (That I have read) say that you have to assume the invader is hyped up on drugs which can give them the ability to continue on no matter how much pain you can inflict. Not to mention super human strength. Which means the only reasonable self defense method is the one that shuts down the body's ability to continue to function. In other words, a head shot or an organ shot that shuts down the hydraulic pumping of blood. They went on to say that a head shot is probably too difficult under the circumstances. A body shot was recommended but I don't remember if they talked about upper or lower body. So they recommended a self defense round with maximum expansion in the largest caliber you can comfortably deal/practice with. They mentioned Black Talon ammo at that time as it expanded with very sharp petals/points that apparently did a lot of damage even if it missed a vital organ. I believe that Black Talon was later restricted to LEO only. They did deal with the penetration issue by recommending rounds such as the Glaser Safety Slug (This was a long time ago, BTW) and others. And for shotguns I believed they said to use a 12 gauge with a certain loading (can't remember) but said if you are worried about wall penetration don't use a shot gun. A lot of things have changed since I read these articles but I think the basics are still valid.
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#4 buck for loud noises in the house and 9mm pistol for checking outside/answering the door. I live in a very dense neighborhood with lots of single wall construction chewed away by termites and have mapped out some shooting lanes that have more than one wall or some appliances/tools in the way. The neighborhood kids here are really nice and i'd rather die than hit one of them by accident so in some cases shooting is not an option, but the benefits are more people watching each others back so I give away stuff from the garden and make conversation any chance I get.
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#4 buck for loud noises in the house and 9mm pistol for checking outside/answering the door. I live in a very dense neighborhood with lots of single wall construction chewed away by termites and have mapped out some shooting lanes that have more than one wall or some appliances/tools in the way. The neighborhood kids here are really nice and i'd rather die than hit one of them by accident so in some cases shooting is not an option, but the benefits are more people watching each others back so I give away stuff from the garden and make conversation any chance I get.
Prevention is much more desirable than having to actually make that decision.
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Rem 870 w/ Winchester 12 gauge PDX1 Defender... 1oz. Rifled Slug + 3 Plated 00 Buck Pellets..... ***Diabolical Laugh**** Muuuaaaa haahhhaaaah ahhhhahhhhaaaaa!
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Although theres lots of better options... Id rather have a 12 g. with 5 rounds of bird shot than nothing.... ;D
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Shotgun or handgun. - I would use both
What is the ideal weapon for home defense? Mossberg 500 Pump with double 0 buck
What is your designated home defense firearm? both...
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I strongly believe in most HD situations, the shotgun is the better choice.
My first, most accessible weapon, however, is a pistol.
The main reason is accessibility.
I can get into the handgun safe in 2 seconds.
Now if someone gives me warning that they're going to break in, rob and hurt my family... I promise, I'll be waiting with a loaded 12 gauge.
This!!
But, fyi........
1. M&P .40 - Hollow point (closest prox to bed and fastest access)
2. Benelli 12ga - 00 Buck (different room/seperate safe)
On a sidenote, I will say that my first line of defense in my home is actually not firearm related. He's a 150 pd Cane Corso that is NOT fond of strangers and very well trained!! He's an indoor dog and lives downstairs, gauranteed to wake me up and provide me with extra prep time if there is an intruder!! :thumbsup:
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For me it's either of my pistols, a Glock 17 with Gold Dots or a HK USP 40c with some Remington or Fiocchi HPs. I have a few ARs, but I live in a small condo and it would be too unwieldly and too high a risk of shooting right through the drywall.
I don't have a shotgun, but I've debated getting a 12 GA after shooting one of my friend's guns.
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A Taurus judge is hardly the gold standard by which to, er, judge.
Bird shot (or any shot) from a shotgun with a barrel more than 4" long expands at a rate of about 1" per yard traveled. So at 1 yard, that 1 ounce clump of shot is only 1" larger than when it exited the bore. It might as well be a slug. At 2 yards, it's all of 2" wider than it was when it exited the bore, an overall pattern less than 3" in diameter. Might as well be buckshot. At 3 yards, we're approaching a diameter of 4", about the same level of effectiveness as #4 shot. Somewhere around 5 yards, the pellets are far enough apart that they're now losing the effective of a coherent mass and becoming tiny, individual projectiles.
5 yards is pretty far for a defensive shooting situation.
If I were to use a Taurus Judge for home defense, it would be loaded with 250gr Speer Gold Dots (PN: 23984). Then again, if I was to use .45 LC for home defense, it wouldnt be in a Taurus Judge...
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My cell phone to call 911. :shaka:
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My cell phone to call 911. :shaka:
Not for nothing, but PD is to take names and make a case after the fact...
I protect my family.
Hawaii needs to recognize the fact that people have the right to protect themselves and their families!!!
In many cases calling 911 is too late................
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Found this article that sort applies to this subject:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/04/16/the-shelf-gun-for-home-defense/ (http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/04/16/the-shelf-gun-for-home-defense/)
Enjoy!
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Found this article that sort applies to this subject:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/04/16/the-shelf-gun-for-home-defense/ (http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/04/16/the-shelf-gun-for-home-defense/)
Enjoy!
That's my next purchase. Or something like it.
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That's my next purchase. Or something like it.
+1 - a disposable firearm.
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My Glock 19 is my primary HD weapon. SureFire X200 light with pressure switch is attached and a LaserMax guide rod laser installed as well as night sights. JHP ammo loaded up and ready to rock.
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I have a glock 22 in a holster and a mossberg 500 cruiser in hand with 00 buck!
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I think the best choice, given you have room to manipulate it, is a 12 gauge. I don't. I live in an old house where there are very tight corners and handling my shotgun and moving around my house would be very difficult. I keep my rem 870 next to my bed loaded with 00 buck for if the fight ever comes to me. But if I ever have to leave my bedroom and walk around to check a noise or something I have a glock 21sf loaded with hornady critical defense.
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Both!
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I run a 10.5" AR and a Sig 226, dont even own a shotgun anymore. I am looking at Remington autos, wanna do an 11-87 SBS'ed with a suppressor like the one on "No Country for Old Men".
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I run a 10.5" AR and a Sig 226, dont even own a shotgun anymore. I am looking at Remington autos, wanna do an 11-87 SBS'ed with a suppressor like the one on "No Country for Old Men".
in Hawaii?
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in Hawaii?
Neg. He lives in the America that Hawaii needs to emulate. ;)
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In a perfect world the most usefull homedefense gun would be one that delivers massive firepower to end a threat or the shear pressence of it makes an intruder go running/flying out whatever door/window is closes. At the same time a point that is often under condisered is over penitration. In Hawaii many of our houses are very close togeather and not made of brick or a very hard exterior expecially the upper floors. So with that being said to fire apon an intruder and end the threat would only be a marginal victory if you end up killing your sleeping neighbor. Our most popular home defense rounds none are that great at staying in your intended target much less the ones that miss. There are allternatives on the market such as the glasser blue safety slugs for one and they are probably the best example and the best choice for a home defense designated hangun or rifle. They will do some massive damage to your intended target but are a lot more likely to stay in that target and not over penetrate to much. Shotguns are by far the best home defense choice out there.
Why? Though you would never ask! If you thinking its because they are a point and shoot your target is blown against the wall kind of affair...well they are not they are alot more complicated than that but yet they have some amazing qualitys. First long guns are easier to control when the fecal matter hits the fan... ask any body who has ever been in a serious fight for there life either with a gun or fist or in any way shape or form actually and they will probably tell you they fine motor control was gone. Its a fact of nature your blood rushes to your core muscle control is difficult plus your mind is running a mile a minute and thinigs get confusing and simple task become painstakingly hard...such as dialing 911, your fingers just wont hit the numbers you tell them too, or some how you just dropped the mag out of your pistol and you would swear you never touched the mag release. So shotguns are inherently simple, mine is stored mag full snap cap in the chamber hammer down, this means I can pick it up rack the slide and it is ready to fire, no safety to worry about and the sounds of a pump racking is a sound known across the world and will make all but the most hardened criminals crap there pants and run. 00 buck is my perfered choice of shotgun rounds, were else can you hit some one with the equivelent of 9 shots from a 9mm in one blow talk about fire power... But since my current house in not brick or concrete I have had to change that to #4 shot. I choose a lead unplated turkey load, they patter well out of my shotgun and they will likely penetrate threw a single wall in my interior but not two or the exterior, and if they did the amount of energy they will be carring on the other side carrys minimal liabiliy to me. A shotgun still requires aiming and light. That is why mine is set up with a white light and ghost ring sites, the sites are not necessary at inside the home distances but they remind me to aim... and that is a must. White light is one of the most important features you can have on any gun in your home. You must be able to see what you intend to shoot, and if you intend to shoot it, you must identify it!!! This is so important and often overlooked in casual training. It could be a family member a friend the dog or someone with out the intention of hurting you and yours.Remeber just cause we have the right to shoot doesnt mean we should, there is nothing worse than taking a life unneccesarly, even if you are in the right. Trust me on this you dont want to live with that grief.
So shotguns are easy to handle, if you think they are aquard and overly long then take some training, there are some very easy ways to shorten a shotguns profile in your hands, you can use the bicept method for pieing corners or opening doors and still have compleate control over the firearm. They are devastating in there firepower, while they still have to be aimed they are a lot easier to aim than a pistol expecially when fine motor control goes out the window. There presence is immidiately know, its pretty hard to not notice a shotgun were a pistol could be over looked and not deter a half way serious perp. There are numerous ways that shotguns are better for your geneal home defense but allways remeber they gun you have with you is better than the one left behind. Dont get me wrong my 1911 is still on the bed side, right next to my shotgun, one does not take the place of the other, a shotgun might be a little to much for the late night door bell ring, and difficult to hide in the event its just a neighbor needing help or asking a question, even more awquard if its the cops bring your kid home...We must continue to think about these types of issues and share what we learn, this is an ever growing subject and the vast majority of us are way behind the curve, training and practice there are no store bought substitutes.
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http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/04/16/the-shelf-gun-for-home-defense/ (http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/04/16/the-shelf-gun-for-home-defense/)
Huh... this guy and I have nearly identical views on this subject! (Although he neds to update his research on what the "original FBI load" was!)
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What has two thumbs and needs a shotgun-specific home defense class? This guy right here. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Wish we had some kind of training. Watched a few videos to not be completely clueless, but it's not enough.
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I run a 10.5" AR and a Sig 226, dont even own a shotgun anymore. I am looking at Remington autos, wanna do an 11-87 SBS'ed with a suppressor like the one on "No Country for Old Men".
in Hawaii?
Neg. He lives in the America that Hawaii needs to emulate. ;)
..............then again Nick might shoot the intruders in the eyes with the huge bottle of lube he keeps on the nightstand...............
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People that I have talked to who do "specialized work" suggest the 2 gun method. A mid level power handgun 9mm .40 sw .38 close to you as possible. This handgun will be your protection until you can get to your heavy power. Then keeping a more tactical gun ar or one guy said he loves him lever action in short barrel.
Me I have 2 dogs 1 is over 100 lbs the other is 50 lbs and grumpy. They stoped some people in big island from coming into my property
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Ideally, what Tom G said - Carbine if waiting for BG to come to me. If not a carbine, a SG. The SG is fine but I just don't train enough with it......sometimes I forget to rack and hear nothing when I pull the trigger or sometimes I eject live rounds. Unfortunately god said I could only choose one: Good looks or brains.
Ideally, what Cougar said - Handgun if moving about the home.
I don't know why.....but I think I'd feel pretty comfortable with just a machete too. Must be the Visayan blood or something.......or my good looks....see above.
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Ideally, what Tom G said - Carbine if waiting for BG to come to me. If not a carbine, a SG. The SG is fine but I just don't train enough with it......sometimes I forget to rack and hear nothing when I pull the trigger or sometimes I eject live rounds. Unfortunately god said I could only choose one: Good looks or brains.
Ideally, what Cougar said - Handgun if moving about the home.
I don't know why.....but I think I'd feel pretty comfortable with just a machete too. Must be the Visayan blood or something.......or my good looks....see above.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I keep my AR and SG in opposite ends of my room "cruiser ready" (chamber empty, hammer down, and safety off). I don't intend on leaving the room. When about the house, it's either a holstered gun with one in the pipe, or a revolver in the pocket with a full cylinder. I don't really have a "shelf gun" as they eventually go to the range, but between range trips, that's how they're left.
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Do you all lock up the weapons every morning before going to work or not at home or leave them as they are? Id be worried about liability if somene broke in and stole my hardware.
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I lock mines up. Someone is usually always home though.
I've got another question and decided to post here instead of making a new thread. Do you guys prefer flashlights or lasers on your pistols/riffles?
I heard a noise last night and went to inspect. Looked at my open sights and couldn't see a thing, so was wondering what you guys do. I guess night sights would be a great starting point.
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I lock mines up. Someone is usually always home though.
I've got another question and decided to post here instead of making a new thread. Do you guys prefer flashlights or lasers on your pistols/riffles?
I heard a noise last night and went to inspect. Looked at my open sights and couldn't see a thing, so was wondering what you guys do. I guess night sights would be a great starting point.
I run night sights and a light on my home defense pistol.
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I lock mines up. Someone is usually always home though.
I've got another question and decided to post here instead of making a new thread. Do you guys prefer flashlights or lasers on your pistols/riffles?
I heard a noise last night and went to inspect. Looked at my open sights and couldn't see a thing, so was wondering what you guys do. I guess night sights would be a great starting point.
Was open sights with a flashlight...
Now working on a semi w/ laser & flashlight combo.... :thumbsup:
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To be honest, because of my wife and kidz, I would resort to the running front thrust kick...
Depends what time of the night it is.... If not, then my 1911 in 45acp.... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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To be honest, because of my wife and kidz, I would resort to the running front thrust kick
This is how you know Bananaclip used to watch king fu theater
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:rofl: Nothin wrong with that.
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I reserve my kicks for after the bad guy has 18 bleeding holes in his chest.
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I reserve my kicks for after the bad guy has 18 bleeding holes in his chest.
Nah, then you going get the British Knights all bloody ;)
(http://i47.tinypic.com/6f79k5.jpg)
Chuck said, supposed to "Kickem First"
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I guess if you are talking about having to try out a few shotguns before we decide I guess you could twist my arm into it! :D
The problem I have is not I am not much of a shotgun person. I have a lot confidence in my abilities with my .357 Magnum and I have very little experience with a shotgun. In an emergency if I had both to choose from I would probably take the .357 Magnum nine out of ten times. Maybe even if the shotgun was the better choice under the circumstances. Instinct and old habits die hard.
I agree with many of my forum brothers: the sentiment is that a handgun is more manuverable in a tight spot, like my bedroom or living room. Also agreed that a shotgum is nice to have for some distance. Will most others affirm that a shotgum is most useful at 25 - 100 yards? My pistol (Glock 9mm) can be used at point blank, and also can hit a target at 100 yards. In either case, proficiency is paramount, so get out and practice! Invite me to come practice with you.We all learn a lot from each other. There is strength in numbers.
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Was open sights with a flashlight...
Now working on a semi w/ laser & flashlight combo.... :thumbsup:
A laser does not give you the wider range of vision that a flashlight gives. The laser is more pinpoint, the flashlight gives you a larger area of vision. For Home Defense, I'm thinking the flashlight gives you a bigger picture, a better assessment of the threat (are there more than one?), plus a look at the background (where's my daughter?). Laser is accurate at a specified distance.
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I like to use both a laser sight grip and hand carry a small flashlight. This way, in my opinion I can manipulate either when needed for better situational awareness and sight picture. Just my .02
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/slight thread derail
Regardless of the system or method you employ for home defense, please be safe when discharging any firearm in a home defense situation (or as safe as possible, given your particular circumstances).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/conn-man-shoots-masked-teen-dead-outside-worried-neighbors-home-finds-out-its-his-son/2012/09/27/4285b65a-0903-11e2-9eea-333857f6a7bd_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/conn-man-shoots-masked-teen-dead-outside-worried-neighbors-home-finds-out-its-his-son/2012/09/27/4285b65a-0903-11e2-9eea-333857f6a7bd_story.html)
I don't know enough about the events pertaining to this specific incident, but I cannot begin to fathom the amount of grief and pain this parent is feeling after causing the death of his own son...
/resume thread
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in Hawaii?
Neg. He lives in the America that Hawaii needs to emulate. ;)
..............then again Nick might shoot the intruders in the eyes with the huge bottle of lube he keeps on the nightstand...............
If that lube gets used, it wont be what is shot between the eyes... :D
I think the only rifle I have left that is Hawaii legal is my SR15, all the rest I either sold or SBR'ed when I got to Texas. That should save me some check-in weight next time I visit. Again, if anybody is interested in a 3br townhouse in Ewa Beach let me know, I need to free up my VA loan so I can buy my next home. Looking at 10 acres approx. 1/4 mile off the road surrounded by soybean fields on all sides, shielded from view by a mix of trees around the fence line and secured with a tiered approach of two cattle gates (each end of the 1/4 mile driveway), lots of lighting, couple dogs, and as much discretion as one can have in the community as a home based FFL.
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flashlight cause night sights are expensive
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flashlight cause night sights are expensive
By this reasoning.
"Rocks, cause guns and ammo are expensive"
:wtf:
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flashlight cause night sights are expensive
ASK HIM "WHO'S THERE?"
(http://i47.tinypic.com/3343wn9.jpg)
THEN QUICKLY ANSWER YOUR OWN QUESTION........ ;D
(http://i49.tinypic.com/jhdeop.jpg)
"IT'S ME STABBING YOU IN THE FACE....." ;)
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I sleep nekkid so i can whip slap them with my flaccid manhood faster than a chameleon's tongue. Flashlight in the other hand.
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I sleep nekkid so i can whip slap them with my flaccid manhood faster than a chameleon's tongue. Flashlight in the other hand.
What if it's a cold night and the turtle is in the shell?
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His turtle is always in the shell.
He ain't whipping anything. :rofl:
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It's true it doesn't make a very good self defense weapon, but it's enough to keep Mrs. Barrels happy.
Different tools occupy one hand, but the other always has a 3d maglite when investigating bumps in the night.
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I sleep nekkid so i can whip slap them with my flaccid manhood faster than a chameleon's tongue. Flashlight in the other hand.
Don't do that in San Francisco.
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#4 buck for loud noises in the house and 9mm pistol for checking outside/answering the door. I live in a very dense neighborhood with lots of single wall construction chewed away by termites and have mapped out some shooting lanes that have more than one wall or some appliances/tools in the way. The neighborhood kids here are really nice and i'd rather die than hit one of them by accident so in some cases shooting is not an option, but the benefits are more people watching each others back so I give away stuff from the garden and make conversation any chance I get.
I must strongly agree with heavy barrels. In addition to staying proficient on your choice of weapons, there is strength in numbers. I like the idea of making friends with neighbors. I'll watch your back, you watch mine. When in the ARmy Rangers, we did not go on missions alone. We planned the entire mission with the thought that my Ranger Buddy will be there for me, I am there for him. To the point of Home Defense, I am thinking that a shotgun will scatter at some distance, but is accurate in less than 25 feet. How big is your home? I don't have a room bigger than 25 feet, so I rely on a smaller, easier to manage handgun. Do I really need my favorite 9mm Glock? Perhaps a .357 would be a better home defense weapon. What is your opinion?
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I like to use both a laser sight grip and hand carry a small flashlight. This way, in my opinion I can manipulate either when needed for better situational awareness and sight picture. Just my .02
I see your point. I must agree with heavy barrels: a 3d Maglite is a very nice HD weapon. Stay safe!
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To the point of Home Defense, I am thinking that a shotgun will scatter at some distance, but is accurate in less than 25 feet. How big is your home? I don't have a room bigger than 25 feet, so I rely on a smaller, easier to manage handgun. Do I really need my favorite 9mm Glock? Perhaps a .357 would be a better home defense weapon. What is your opinion?
Army Ranger? I should be asking you the questions! Pretty much everything I learned was on the internet and from friends mixed with trial and error. I realized that moving around a hd shotgun is too much here, especially having neighbors on all sides that can see and hear everything. Plus in order to use the attached flashlight I have to present and point it all over the place. I agree with you and now feel much better off with a handgun and separate flashlight. No need to alarm anybody who doesn't need to be alarmed. Worked pretty well when someone fell on the other side of the house and I went to check on them to see what the noise was. Only thing they noticed was the flashlight and were happy that I came help. :love:
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I got a list of HDF Fun Shoot people that I am calling if the zombie apocalypse comes down :P. At least I know, if nothing else, there is a good level of firearm competency!
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Army Ranger? I should be asking you the questions! Pretty much everything I learned was on the internet and from friends mixed with trial and error. I realized that moving around a hd shotgun is too much here, especially having neighbors on all sides that can see and hear everything. Plus in order to use the attached flashlight I have to present and point it all over the place. I agree with you and now feel much better off with a handgun and separate flashlight. No need to alarm anybody who doesn't need to be alarmed. Worked pretty well when someone fell on the other side of the house and I went to check on them to see what the noise was. Only thing they noticed was the flashlight and were happy that I came help. :love:
Yes, I am a former Army Ranger. The HDF is a great place to ask questions, so rely on what your HDF friends have to say. Of course, because I am a nice guy, I will listen to just about anybody; agreeing with their opinion is another matter. Having neighbors may be a plus: good people will come to your aid in a crisis, so we hope! To check that bump in the night, I hold my Maglite with my left hand, the handgun in my right. If you can picture it, I rest the left forearm on my right forearm. I'm sure you have seen this position. Practice: pull your shotgun out and move around the house, then repeat the same drill with your handgun. A dramatic difference. Go out in your yard and check your fields of fire and mobility.
Warning! If the government just suspends all those EBT cards, we will have a zombie apocalypse! So keep up on your marksmanship practice.
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I got a list of HDF Fun Shoot people that I am calling if the zombie apocalypse comes down :P. At least I know, if nothing else, there is a good level of firearm competency!
Yes, if the government suspends the welfare system and EBT cards (because we've run out of money from raiding Social Security), the zombie apocalypse may be upon us.
Add a bow and arrows to your arsenal, you may need it. Slingshot, anyone?
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I've been under the notion that a proper .223/5.56 load out of a carbine actually has less chance of overpenetration than a handgun or buckshot load. Which is one of the reasons many LEO agencies have been switching out their mp5 sub guns for SBR'd ar-15s. The theory is a smaller, higher velocity round will break away, deflect, or expand much faster than a heavier, slower round with more inertia behind it. Maybe I'm wrong... but I'm under the assumption that any round capable of providing adequate penetration to a perp is going to over penterate a normally constructed wall.
Of course, non of this matters if you don't know the shooting lanes in your residence. In my 2 bedroom corner apt, I know which way I'll be shooting into cement, and which way I'll be aiming into a neighbors place. As long as the intruder isn't using my toilet, or standing directly in my doorframe to the outside, I have a pretty good idea where my rounds will end up.
I started off using a shotgun for HD. I didn't have a tac light for it, so I did the next best thing and ziptied an old led to the magazine tube. Figuring that if I ever did have to fire it, the light would be toast, but I would at least know where that shot would be going. After I bought my .45, I practice clearing my house with a flashlight "LEO" style. I found it much easier to manipulate light switches and doors with my handgun that I could with my 20" shotgun. After I bought my first AR-15, I practiced clearing my house with it, and found it handled better than my shotgun, and was much more "on point" than my handgun. But I wont use it as my go to HD gun until I get a (for real this time) light set up for it. Til then I'm still using my handgun.
I just hope everyone is keeping a dedicated flashlight either attached to, or living next to their primary HD gun.
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There is a site online where a guy tests penetration of different firearms and whatnot. Can't remember the name of the site. However, the 556 penetrated 4 pieces of drywall if I'm not mistaken. The bullet deflected and was not in a straight line, but it still had enough energy to penetrate. Even the shotgun and handguns penetrated. His saying was, if it can go through the bad guy it could go through a wall.
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box 'o truth?
There is a site online where a guy tests penetration of different firearms and whatnot. Can't remember the name of the site. However, the 556 penetrated 4 pieces of drywall if I'm not mistaken. The bullet deflected and was not in a straight line, but it still had enough energy to penetrate. Even the shotgun and handguns penetrated. His saying was, if it can go through the bad guy it could go through a wall.
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There is a reason that people who clear structures for a living, like homes or buildings in close spaces choose long guns over pistol calibers. Pistols have a use but are delegated as secondaries and their uses are much more limited given the situation. Granted training here in Hawaii on this topic is a bit more than limited, but that applies to handgun or rifle training. Proper uses of the sling and weapon mounted light make the user far more effective with a long gun than with a pistol. Also a pistol mounted light is generally a huge advantage in a trained individual, but of course a handheld should also be available.
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box 'o truth?
Yeah that's the guy. You should look it up for penetration tests.
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There is a reason that people who clear structures for a living, like homes or buildings in close spaces choose long guns over pistol calibers. Pistols have a use but are delegated as secondaries and their uses are much more limited given the situation. Granted training here in Hawaii on this topic is a bit more than limited, but that applies to handgun or rifle training. Proper uses of the sling and weapon mounted light make the user far more effective with a long gun than with a pistol. Also a pistol mounted light is generally a huge advantage in a trained individual, but of course a handheld should also be available.
I personally don't believe there is a one size fits all that will fully satisfy the requirements of every person and their specific household situation, depending on factors like home layout and size, surrounding circumstances, relative ease and access to primary HD firearm, number of people residing in the household, etc.
Many people may have children or other relatives living in their home which may dictate having your primary HD gun locked away safely out of their reach in their master bedroom. If a crisis erupts you may not have adequate time to retrieve your primary HD firearm (i.e. maybe you are watching TV in the living room with your family). Possibly having a secondary HD pistol that the homeowner holster carries in their home while awake could alleviate that problem.
For a primary HD firearm depending on each homeowners specific situation, I personally don't think you could go wrong with a Remington 870 or Mossberg 590A1 with a Surefire Forend Tactical Light or some other light, with a smaller barrel length for ease of maneuvering through the house should you have to move from your secure position to protect family members in other rooms. Lastly a good reduced buck recoil load with basically the same stopping power as normal loads would be optimal. One could also make a good argument I'm sure for a semi-auto rifle or pistol as their primary HD firearm. For me, in my situation I opt for a well outfitted shotgun as my primary HD firearm. JMHO
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I personally don't believe there is a one size fits all that will fully satisfy the requirements of every person and their specific household situation, depending on factors like home layout and size, surrounding circumstances, relative ease and access to primary HD firearm, number of people residing in the household, etc.
Many people may have children or other relatives living in their home which may dictate having your primary HD gun locked away safely out of their reach in their master bedroom. If a crisis erupts you may not have adequate time to retrieve your primary HD firearm (i.e. maybe you are watching TV in the living room with your family). Possibly having a secondary HD pistol that the homeowner holster carries in their home while awake could alleviate that problem.
For a primary HD firearm depending on each homeowners specific situation, I personally don't think you could go wrong with a Remington 870 or Mossberg 590A1 with a Surefire Forend Tactical Light or some other light, with a smaller barrel length for ease of maneuvering through the house should you have to move from your secure position to protect family members in other rooms. Lastly a good reduced buck recoil load with basically the same stopping power as normal loads would be optimal. One could also make a good argument I'm sure for a semi-auto rifle or pistol as their primary HD firearm. For me, in my situation I opt for a well outfitted shotgun as my primary HD firearm. JMHO
I believe the question was something along the lines of what was the ideal weapon for home defense. While there may be mitigating or other circumstances that may play a factor in individual situations, this does not detract from the fact that under "ideal circumstances" there are weapons that are more "ideal for home defense" or a defensive situation in general which was part of the original question. Of course shot placement is #1, but in a defensive situation one shot incapacitation is not likely, therefore Long gun munitions are far more ideal for stopping a threat quicker and with more efficiency than a pistol caliber weapon. There is also more than a darn good argument for a rifle caliber such as a .223 / 5.56 for these exact situations.
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I believe the question was something along the lines of what was the ideal weapon for home defense. While there may be mitigating or other circumstances that may play a factor in individual situations, this does not detract from the fact that under "ideal circumstances" there are weapons that are more "ideal for home defense" or a defensive situation in general which was part of the original question. Of course shot placement is #1, but in a defensive situation one shot incapacitation is not likely, therefore Long gun munitions are far more ideal for stopping a threat quicker and with more efficiency than a pistol caliber weapon. There is also more than a darn good argument for a rifle caliber such as a .223 / 5.56 for these exact situations.
Agree about long gun munitions fully but there are other considerations, such as physical limitations that don't make a long gun a viable option for some. One other critical point is there is no substitute for good training and that is a must regardless of preferred weapon. Also, some people just may not feel comfortable with a long gun, such as small framed women. Not disagreeing with anything you said, just saying one size doesn't fit all.
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Here is my 2 cents about what firearm to use for home defense. First off, I have at least one pistol and one long gun secured in every room in my house ranging from semi auto pistols, revolvers, carbines and shotguns. In my nighstand safe I have an old retired security .357 s&w revolver which I got for real cheap which is always loaded as is all my "quick reaction guns". It shoots well enough for home defense and has more than enough stopping power. The point that I'm trying to make is that regardless of how rightous you are when shooting an intruder in your home, the firearm you use will be confiscated and will be held as evidence for at the vary least an extended period of time if ever returned at all. So all of you guys who have your high end carbines of wilson combat 1911's as your primary home defense weapon beware. The actual shooting is the easiest part.
My advice is find a solid, reliable enough, inexpensive handgun and or shotgun as a primary home defense weapon cause man you are gonna be sick when they take that $5000 Wilson Combat 1911 or that $2500+ LWRC ar.
Here is a few of my "disposabile" home defense firearms
S&W .357 used <$300
Ruger p90 .45 used $100
Maverick 12gauge new $200
Rem 870 12gauge new $300
M&P 15 5.56 new $700
Save your high end firearms for you our Z-day
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IMO I'd stick to a handgun cause the above is true. With a Shotgun there is two things, 1. One less shotgun to use with skeet shooting 2. The feeling of having to replace something that was hit with buck/bird/slug shot that either missed the target or went through (In the case of a slug). That or having to fix the wall that it went in to cause the run/floor is going to have to be done irregardless. Whatever you can use that you can drive it fast and accurately is what you should use.
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Damn Lanza. Like Hunter I had arms squirreled away in each room including the bathrooms. Now less so as they were not as secure nor immediately accessible as ideal situation, so my SOP has returned to on person carry full time at home. Will try not to get lazy again. Each news story about crime a constant reminder to be vigilant. If my life or loved one life in danger I will release the hell fire.
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The best defense specifically talked about this yesterday.
One product they featured was a "holster". It was more like a rail, however it had earth magnets in it that held the firearm in place. You simply grab and pull the gun and the magnets released. They even made large versions for shotguns/rifles. It could also be mounted anywhere.
Another point they demonstrated is having layers of security/escalation of force. There situation was a drunk person in the house at night. I know not every situation is the same and whatnot. They chose to use pepper spray instead of firing. I know not everyone would agree or respond the same, so stay safe!!!
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maginots :p
forgot to relay a story about those shotgun forearm lights, at least the early ones. was down the Waikiki range, when they used to let us locals on range, with my fancy new forearm setup doohicky. Racked it, light on target, FIRE! and light went dead. First shot :( What a load of crap! Actually I shouted out something else but you know.
Upgraded bulb assembly to the LED version once that came out and so far so good but haven't taken it out recently.
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I acknowledge that the Judge is not the best home defense gun which is why I mentioned the gun in the first place ;D. I want to report as much of the facts that I can get a hold of. ;)
Would you be willing to share your sources regarding the ballistic effect of birdshot at close range? I know shooting my Mossberg 500 at 7 yards I get a spray of pellets all over the target with an 18" barrel. It that with a particular brand of birdshot?
hey hey now, a raging judge magnum can shoot 6 rounds of .454 Casull which makes for one hell of a round for self defense!
for me, shotgun filled with max dram slugs and 3 inch magnum 00buckshot which has 15 pellets! Gotta be able to get thru a door or a couch when you need to...
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When at home I always have at least my Glock 22 (.40) and once in a while also bring out Glock 17 or 19. I feel a shot gun is to long for homes in Hawaii. Hand gun is just right.
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bullpup (cough)
:D
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TRP Operator with Surefire x300
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Release the hounds / pups!
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/21731159/five-men-arrested-after-alleged-home-invasion-in-aiea (http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/21731159/five-men-arrested-after-alleged-home-invasion-in-aiea)
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my preferable HD gun is my XDM .45 with either 230 grain federal HP, or 185 gr +p HP
i like the short range stopping power of the 45
plus it is easy access for me, it can be ready in a matter of seconds.
i think the pistol can be easily maneuvered around my small accomodations vs a rifle, and my only rifle right now is a 10/22 so for me that isn't a primary option for HD.
i also have my 2 revolvers that can be ready just as fast
but i prefer the XDM for my primary option, due to the caliber and the flashlight.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8112/8598513428_3850cb1124_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/70099529@N03/8598513428/)
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my preferable HD gun is my XDM
+1. XDm .40 S&W
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You could try slice the pie
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Certainly, that would be first choice.
Sorry, this is assuming interior corridor does not provide enough room to "slice-the-pie."
If you don't have enough room perhaps you should choose another alternative. Not tryna be a dick. :shaka:
Then again if the shotgun is too long with a 16" barrel any rifle will be too long as well.
Interested in hearing what others have to say
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How would one round a corner in your house with a shotgun?
I'm thinking barrel down.
Is this correct?
Something to think about, you have complete control of how to lay your home out. For example you could clear lines of sight by moving stuff around or even make convienient choke points, use led spotlights on fixtures or lamps to blind or shadow your approach. You could even convieniently place a mirror or something with a reflective surface near that corner. Could be something as small and inconspicuious as a picture frame on a counter across the room angled so you could see the blind spot. Remember Sun Tzu's Art of War, you have the opportunity to prep the battlefield in your favor. So what if they can see you coming. If they can see you, you can see them and they can see the shotgun your holding!
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I think more thought needs to be put into a lot of folks HD weapon of choice. a 1911 loaded with 230 grain? Damn, that is a lot of HD, plus you need to worry about where the bullet goes once you pull that trigger. Don't get me wrong, if you are good and assuming you have had some experience with the drastic increase in heart rate, breathing, etc., etc., you should be good to go. Personally, my HD weapon of choice is two actually. First is a nice Shotgun (assuming it has been converted into a HD weapon). You certainly don't want to have to move tactically with a big ass shotgun. But if you rack it and the bad guy doesn't leave immediately, then chances are he/she/they are armed and intend to do bodily harm to you and yours. Which brings me to my second (and favorite) HD weapon..Bond Arms Snake Slayer IV! It comes in either .45/.410 or .38 Spec./.357 Mag. Great for concealed carry also...total length is only about 5" or so...
Again, I am not trying to be a dick...just my two cents!
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Ooh. Bond arms. I want one. The Texas somethin or other with the star on the handle.
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^^^^ Ya, that is the one...
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I think the real concern isn't hurting feelings. It's maintaining an elevated standard of dialogue in a public forum.
As it has been described, there's no sense in posting things that can be used against the 2A community by those who might come here for just that reason.
:stopjack:
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+1!
On that note... IWI US is shipping Tavors, starting tomorrow!!
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/c0.0.403.403/p403x403/67371_10151335514843803_1542742212_n.jpg)
Bro............OGC has already sold a couple down here.
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Amazed by all the concerned forum members who are worried that their comments are making them sound like dicks...
Let's clear shit up right now.
First, the moment people start getting all Politically Correct on 2aHawaii to avoid offending other people's feelings is the moment I unsubscribe. I'd rather hear unfiltered, genuine thoughts and comments and do the filtering myself.
Second, we're all big boys here so if I say something stupid or ask a dumbass question, it is my ardent hope that other forum members will tell me that I just said something stupid, or just asked a dumbass question... BUT THEN HAVE THE BALLS AND THE GRACE TO CORRECT ME OR PROVIDE ME WITH THE ANSWER TO MY DUMBASS QUESTION. That's how I learn.
Third, it is okay to be a dick every now and then. If you live your life always concerned about not being a dick to anyone, you end up being... well, dickless.
Finally, no need to try to hide it... we already know that everyone here is pretty much a dick in their own special way!! The sooner we accept that fact, the sooner we can move on.
Sorry... I hope this post doesn't make me come across as a dick!! :rofl:
Reminded me of the classic movie "Cool Hand Luke". Now he wasn't dickless for sure. :rofl:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=47oqL3GgC9c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=47oqL3GgC9c)
:stopjack:
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Yeah, thanks... I saw the Tweets.
Already have mine. :thumbsup:
Nice!!! You got to shoot it yet? Impressions?
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No worries, bruddah bass monkey... your comment was not taken that way.
Just asking because a fella I was talking with had this thought:
Corner with barrel down.
If BG grabs the front of your barrel, you step back, yank barrel and still have the opportunity to get a shot off into BG's lower torso, thigh, leg, foot.
If cornering with barrel up, and if BG grabs barrel, you step back and yank, but target is limited to BG's head.
Again, just throwing this out there for discussion.
A good sling on your shotgun would eliminate the chance that the BG grabs the shotgun and shoot you with it. You can only slice so much pie on a corner especially if its in a hallway. Something or MOUT trainers said was "violence of actions". You need to commit, move deliberatly and aggresively when you round that corner. Keep the shotgun close and tight to your body compact. You want to retain as much of a shooting stance as possible so you have less movement to make to get your sights lined up to a target.
Or you can do a Biden and shoot two shots before you make your move :thumbsup:
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When at home I always have at least my Glock 22 (.40) and once in a while also bring out Glock 17 or 19. I feel a shot gun is to long for homes in Hawaii. Hand gun is just right.
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ok then...
I guess that makes sense..