2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Reloading => Topic started by: Locker_09 on July 01, 2017, 07:01:46 PM
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I need some wisdom fron our veteran reloaders.So i had the chance today to try out my test reloads. So i have .223 with hornady fmj-bt w/c 55 gr, 20.5 gr powder load(lowest charge on my book) and i noticed 10 rounds with bulging primers. The rest looks normal. My brass are lc stamped and i reamed the crimp on them. What could cause this? I read somewhere that this is an overpressure sign.
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Please post some pictures of the cases and the primers.
Also 20.5 gr. of which powder? What is the length your finished round?
Are you checking each case for charge weight?
Are you using a crimp?
Are you shooting bolt action or semi auto?
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Overpressure or loose primer pocket
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Yes picture would help a ton. Everything that K3014 posted.
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We demand primer porn.
20.5 gn is pretty low no matter what powder. How are you loading the powder... scoop, scale, hand measurer, auto measurer?
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Please post some pictures of the cases and the primers.
Also 20.5 gr. of which powder? What is the length your finished round?
Are you checking each case for charge weight?
Are you using a crimp?
Are you shooting bolt action or semi auto?
20.5 gr IMR 3031. Finished round is 2.25. Not using crimp and also didn't check the weight. I am shooting semi.
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We demand primer porn.
20.5 gn is pretty low no matter what powder. How are you loading the powder... scoop, scale, hand measurer, auto measurer?
I was just following my book to start low and the lowest in hornandy book for my bullet weight and powder combo is 20.5 gr. I'm measuring using a scale.
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20.5 gr IMR 3031. Finished round is 2.25. Not using crimp and also didn't check the weight. I am shooting semi.
A little blurry but looks like the primer is popping out a bit. I don't see any cratering. My guess is that the load is too light or perhaps the bullet is not seated far enough in.
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Being that you are using LC brass, just wondering how you swaging the primer pockets. Like ren said, could be loose primer pockets. Or if the pockets are not swaged, the is a reason for a number of other problems. The picture is blurry.
Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
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Personally, I use the crimp remover in my electric drill. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0063IDE6A/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The Hornady manual says 20.5 but there's little tolerance with the 223. With my rifle, 18 gn won't cycle the bolt with some powders.
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Personally, I use the crimp remover in my electric drill. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0063IDE6A/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The Hornady manual says 20.5 but there's little tolerance with the 223. With my rifle, 18 gn won't cycle the bolt with some powders.
Yeah i think 20.5 is too light because after my last round, the bolt carrier doesn't even lock. So far that the only problem i had with my first batch of reload.
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Yep, time to OCW. http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
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Here are the things that I think can contribute to the condition you are experiencing. Go through each one and eliminate them:
1. Improper/incomplete primer seating. The Primer wasn't seated properly to begin with. Common causes: incomplete/insufficient seating pressure, deformed primer pocket or military crimp not removed or inadequately removed. Bolt will refuse to close on some firearms due to protruding primer.
2. Primer pocket deformed or military crimp was not removed or inadequately removed. Primers will often flatten or get crushed if forced into an improperly sized primer pocket and will not have adequate fitted friction to remain seated when the round is fired. As a result, the primer backs out of the case from the pressure when the round is fired;
3. Loose or stretched primer pocket. Common causes: case defect, repeated use of the case resulting in excessive expansion (i.e. stretching) of the pocket or improper de-crimping technique. Stretched or loose primer pockets will sometimes offer very little resistance when a primer is inserted or even fall out after the primer is seated; and
4. Overpresure. Case pressure exceeds the holding force of the primer pocket a) due to one of the conditions noted above; or b) powder charge exceeds the manufacturer's maximum recommended charge for the round being loaded. The case need not be overcharged for the former condition to occur. In other words the powder charge falls within the powder manufacturer's min/max specification for the round loaded but the case is unable to sufficiently hold the primer due to one of the reasons stated above.
If i can think of more, I'll add them
~F
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Enough has been said regarding loose primer pockets, improperly swaged primer pockets and over pressure situations. I have nothing to add about this.
With that said there is a condition no one has addressed and I will address it here as I reload using low pressure loads and I see this quite often. It has been written that when shooting low power loads the pressure is not quite enough. In this particular situation it is said that under a normal pressure situation when lit off the case expands and is pushed back against the bolt face. Primer will show normal. But under a proper low pressure load the case expands but there is not enough pressure to push it back against the bolt face. And the primer will pop out slightly. I have shot tens of thousands of rounds with primers popping out slightly. So the question remains will raising the pressure relieve this condition? I can say with my testing it is quite true. But I should say that this only applies to a firearm that is properly headspaced.
I believe that the fact that only some of your reloads show this condition proves this as this is exactly what I see when my low pressure loads are on the border between low and normal pressures. A lot of this will also depend on barrel, chamber, barrel condition, case thickness, bullet diameter, charge weight, etc. All of these things are different between each and every cartridge. Also, the fact that your bolt didn't hold open on a load or two makes me think you are just at that point between low pressure and normal pressure. My suggestion is to try more loads with the same cases, primers and bullets and raise the charge weight 0.50 grains and maybe 1.0 grains. I think you'll not see this not occur any more. Again, assuming your rifle is headspaced properly.
One more thing. I believe that 3031 is the right burn speed for 55 grain bullets in that cartridge. I have found through my testing that 3031 was not the best powder for the bullet, powder, primer, case, rifle combination I am using. It may work really well for you. If you want to try another powder I recommend H335 for that weight bullet as it is just a tad bit slower. And I found better consistency and higher velocities with H335 over IMR 3031.
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Low pressure....
My book shows min of 21.6 3031/ max 24.6
55 gr. Bullets
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Low pressure....
My book shows min of 21.6 3031/ max 24.6
55 gr. Bullets
I guess different books have different specs.
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Enough has been said regarding loose primer pockets, improperly swaged primer pockets and over pressure situations. I have nothing to add about this.
With that said there is a condition no one has addressed and I will address it here as I reload using low pressure loads and I see this quite often. It has been written that when shooting low power loads the pressure is not quite enough. In this particular situation it is said that under a normal pressure situation when lit off the case expands and is pushed back against the bolt face. Primer will show normal. But under a proper low pressure load the case expands but there is not enough pressure to push it back against the bolt face. And the primer will pop out slightly. I have shot tens of thousands of rounds with primers popping out slightly. So the question remains will raising the pressure relieve this condition? I can say with my testing it is quite true. But I should say that this only applies to a firearm that is properly headspaced.
I believe that the fact that only some of your reloads show this condition proves this as this is exactly what I see when my low pressure loads are on the border between low and normal pressures. A lot of this will also depend on barrel, chamber, barrel condition, case thickness, bullet diameter, charge weight, etc. All of these things are different between each and every cartridge. Also, the fact that your bolt didn't hold open on a load or two makes me think you are just at that point between low pressure and normal pressure. My suggestion is to try more loads with the same cases, primers and bullets and raise the charge weight 0.50 grains and maybe 1.0 grains. I think you'll not see this not occur any more. Again, assuming your rifle is headspaced properly.
One more thing. I believe that 3031 is the right burn speed for 55 grain bullets in that cartridge. I have found through my testing that 3031 was not the best powder for the bullet, powder, primer, case, rifle combination I am using. It may work really well for you. If you want to try another powder I recommend H335 for that weight bullet as it is just a tad bit slower. And I found better consistency and higher velocities with H335 over IMR 3031.
I remember one of the range master mentioned about too low of a pressure or charge when i showed my case to him. I will try and experiment some more. Thanks everyone for the input.
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With that said there is a condition no one has addressed and I will address it here
What am I, chop liver?
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What am I, chop liver?
Yes. :rofl: :shake: :rofl:
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I remember one of the range master mentioned about too low of a pressure or charge when i showed my case to him. I will try and experiment some more. Thanks everyone for the input.
Don't worry. In no time, you'll be so addicted to reloading that you'll start adding gun powder to your coffee instead of sugar.
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I guess different books have different specs.
In my experience, Hornady data is very much on the conservative side. I agree with Inspector in giving H335 a try. That's all i use for 55gr.
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In my experience, Hornady data is very much on the conservative side. I agree with Inspector in giving H335 a try. That's all i use for 55gr.
Or TAC... They have lots at HGS.
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I agree with Inspector and oldfart. Your load is under pressure. The powder burning is pushing the primer out of the pocket but not enough to push the case back against the boldface, pressing the primer back into the pocket, obturate the case and seal the chamber. I bet the chamber area was real dirty too? I see this in real low power revolver loads, the primer can even jam up the revolver and lock it up.
I didn't catch if this was out of a semiauto? Did it cycle the action? Was the action anemic?
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I agree with Inspector and oldfart. Your load is under pressure. The powder burning is pushing the primer out of the pocket but not enough to push the case back against the boldface, pressing the primer back into the pocket, obturate the case and seal the chamber. I bet the chamber area was real dirty too? I see this in real low power revolver loads, the primer can even jam up the revolver and lock it up.
I didn't catch if this was out of a semiauto? Did it cycle the action? Was the action anemic?
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Now I remember!
This was happening when I was playing with rubber bullets in a revolver.
You have to drill out the flash hole so there is less back pressure.
Don't do that in your rifle.
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Now I remember!
This was happening when I was playing with rubber bullets in a revolver.
You have to drill out the flash hole so there is less back pressure.
Don't do that in your rifle.
Yep same here. But with wax boolits. Drill out the flash hole and pop in a primer. Shoot pop cans and cardboard boxes with wax.. (all with safety in mind. Eyes, ears, no live ammo anywhere near)
Good fun
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Yep same here. But with wax boolits. Shoot pop cans and cardboard boxes with wax.. (all with safety in mind. Eyes, ears, no live ammo anywhere near)
Good fun
Soda cans, cardboard boxes...That sounds like a lot of fun! I want to try shooting wax boolits too.
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I agree with Inspector and oldfart. Your load is under pressure. The powder burning is pushing the primer out of the pocket but not enough to push the case back against the boldface, pressing the primer back into the pocket, obturate the case and seal the chamber. I bet the chamber area was real dirty too? I see this in real low power revolver loads, the primer can even jam up the revolver and lock it up.
I didn't catch if this was out of a semiauto? Did it cycle the action? Was the action anemic?
I just tested another batch with higher load than the last time and problem solved. I always clean my rifle after range even if i only fired a few rounds.
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Fellas another problem i'm having with my .308 reloads. I have Lee full sizer and RCBS small base sizer. I also have this Lyman Case Length Headspace Gauge 308 Winchester and this Hornady Cartridge Gauge 308 Winchester. So at first I resized my LC brass and some brass fired from my rifle with the lee. I checked them with the hornady gauge and the won't go all the way in even if I use the small base sizer. But when i check the brass with the Lyman, they go in with no problem. Any ideas why? I'm getting frustrated since before i had a round stuck in my chamber. Thank you in advance for the help..
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All I know is to use the full size die for the initial sizing then with bolt rifle, neck size. That's what I'm doing with my MN 91/30. I believe with the AR, use the small base if having problems feeding. Sorry, I probably got that backwards.
Mitch at the range was just telling me the .308 LC brass needs to be loaded lighter than other brass. I didn't catch why with my earmuffs on.
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Fellas another problem i'm having with my .308 reloads. I have Lee full sizer and RCBS small base sizer. I also have this Lyman Case Length Headspace Gauge 308 Winchester and this Hornady Cartridge Gauge 308 Winchester. So at first I resized my LC brass and some brass fired from my rifle with the lee. I checked them with the hornady gauge and the won't go all the way in even if I use the small base sizer. But when i check the brass with the Lyman, they go in with no problem. Any ideas why? I'm getting frustrated since before i had a round stuck in my chamber. Thank you in advance for the help..
I almost bought a Hornady Gauge until I read the following reviews on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-Cartridge-Gauge-ter-Win/dp/B06W2NTBP5/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1500698695&sr=8-2&keywords=Hornady+case+gauge+308#customerReviews
Obviously, you can't always believe reviews written on the Internet but it is eerily similar to what you wrote.
I buy only Wilson gauges which also makes them for Lyman last time I checked.
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All I know is to use the full size die for the initial sizing then with bolt rifle, neck size.
Not necesarily. After full length sizing than fire forming with a bolt gun, if you only neck size you will eventually have to bump the shoulder back. If you don't, the case will grow to the point the bolt won't be able to close. The saying "If you aren't measuring, you're guessing" applies.
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Not necesarily. After full length sizing than fire forming with a bolt gun, if you only neck size you will eventually have to bump the shoulder back. If you don't, the case will grow to the point the bolt won't be able to close. The saying "If you aren't measuring, you're guessing" applies.
So full size every fifth firing or so with a bolt rifle?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt9JhJAQRBo
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You'll get inconsistent results by neck sizing only and then having to full size the case. You'd want consistency overall. I have posted how to measure shoulder bump with normal tools. You'd want to full size and bump the shoulder .002-.003" to minimize sizing and optimum fit in a bolt gun.
LC brass probably needs less powder because those cases are thicker, thereby reducing internal volume, thus increasing pressure. You be working up to loads in that particular brass, check for pressure signs.
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I guess i will try a different gauge to see if the problem is with the hornady gauge. I also have new never fired brass and they all go in fine and no problem. Also im reloading for semi.
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I guess i will try a different gauge to see if the problem is with the hornady gauge. I also have new never fired brass and they all go in fine and no problem. Also im reloading for semi.
For semi auto bump the shoulder back .003"-.004". Is the cases that don't fit because they are too fat or too long?
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Check out this video.
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=28070.0
Also measure the base of the cases that don't fit the gauge, and compare it to the correct specs for that chamber.
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To bump the shoulder, you have to use a bushing set, right?
https://www.amazon.com/Redding-Competition-Bushing-3-Die-Winchester/dp/B000TU48GS/ref=pd_sbs_200_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000TU48GS&pd_rd_r=WGNJYRC3PGJBWX9TAAVP&pd_rd_w=XCdj1&pd_rd_wg=1XVyW&psc=1&refRID=WGNJYRC3PGJBWX9TAAVP
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Check out this video.
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=28070.0
Also measure the base of the cases that don't fit the gauge, and compare it to the correct specs for that chamber.
i did and the base is within the cartridge specs. Has anyone tried using 40 s&w brass to measure the headspace before for 308?
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So full size every fifth firing or so with a bolt rifle?
Many high level shooters have different opinions and theories as to what produces consistency. Follow what Heavies posted and you will be fine. IMO to bump shoulders every 3-4 reloads and neck size every load is not the best. I bump shoulders .002" every time.
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So i made a dummy round with small base full sized. Still wont fit on the hornady but check all diameter and within the cartridge specs as per the book. I tested it to the rifle to see if it will chamber and it did. So i guess my gauge is shitty. At least now i kmow it will chamber and can be extracted easily. Thanks everyone for the inputs.
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So i made a dummy round with small base full sized. Still wont fit on the hornady but check all diameter and within the cartridge specs as per the book. I tested it to the rifle to see if it will chamber and it did. So i guess my gauge is shitty. At least now i kmow it will chamber and can be extracted easily. Thanks everyone for the inputs.
If its in spec, and it fit your rifle, should be fine. Good times! :shaka: :thumbsup:
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So i made a dummy round with small base full sized. Still wont fit on the hornady but check all diameter and within the cartridge specs as per the book. I tested it to the rifle to see if it will chamber and it did. So i guess my gauge is shitty. At least now i kmow it will chamber and can be extracted easily. Thanks everyone for the inputs.
Let me guess, it fits correctly in your Lyman gauge?
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Let me guess, it fits correctly in your Lyman gauge?
yup.