2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Reloading => Topic started by: dogman on July 31, 2017, 09:54:20 PM
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This is my second batch of 308 reloads. The rifle is a Remington 700 with 26" heavy barrel. The cases are Kaleo Arms processed brass, CCI primers, Sierra 150 grain Game King Boat Tail bullets and Varget. The unfired rounds have 46 grains Varget (ran out of time to shoot), then 45.5, 45, 44.5 and 44 grains. There was at least one round in each load that the primers flattened with square edges (top row). The same thing happened on my first reloads so I wrote the powder charge on each case so I am sure I didn't mix up the charges. Is this normal, I thought the flattening and square edges happens when getting to the max charge.
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Are they staying flat against the base or have they come out slightly? I don't see any cratering which to me is usually the first sign of a too hot load.
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They are flat with the base, not pushing out or bulging.
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Looks just on the fringe of being ok. How did you do your powder charge? Throw or weigh each ?
Varget is notorious for not metering well.
Also, with LC/military cases, the wall is thicker. This reduces interior volume, and thus, increases pressure. It is usually recommended to reduce maximum allowable charge for such brass.
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I should give you my FGMM brass. I was saving them for when I eventually started reloading, but that was like 5 years ago now. Might as well give them to someone who can put them to good use.
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Looks just on the fringe of being ok. How did you do your powder charge? Throw or weigh each ?
Varget is notorious for not metering well.
Also, with LC/military cases, the wall is thicker. This reduces interior volume, and thus, increases pressure. It is usually recommended to reduce maximum allowable charge for such brass.
I weighed each charge + or - .1 grain. The COL was 2.80" with the shortest at 2.796". I weighed the fired cases with spent primers, mostly 180 to 181 grains with four cases at 184 to 186 grains. The cases with the flattened primers were the lighter cases. I haven't fired my highest powder charge yet and I'm not worried but was just wondering about some primers read being "on the fringe of being okay" and most primers read fine on the four different charges. I would expect to see the signs of high pressures only the higher charges with some consistency, but then I am still new to this.
BTW, this is my first experience with a center fire bolt gun (other than Inspector's Mosin) and I am hooked . . . love it!
Mahalo for the replies :thumbsup:
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looks OK
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Inspector's Mosin tends to hook a lot of people. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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You stated CCI primers and not sure if this applies but... I use quite a bit of SRPs and the CCI 400s are very soft and will flatten even with a moderate load, weel under most book max. Their BR4s and 41s are much harder. I'm told the 450s are similar. I'm not sure if the same holds true for their 200s and BR2s.
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The ones on the top row look a touch flat. Not sure how you had them set up in the rows. They look fine though. How was the groupings? There is still radius on the edge and doesn't look like any catering or brass flow. Looks ok
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Inspector's Mosin tends to hook a lot of people. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Hey NOW!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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BTW, this is my first experience with a center fire bolt gun (other than Inspector's Mosin) and I am hooked . . . love it!
Mahalo for the replies :thumbsup:
That Mosin is a Piece of Shit and my favorite gun. :love: :love: :love: Poor thing has been sitting in my safe for months now cuz I have not had the time to reload. :( :( :(
I agree with Bushido's assessment BTW. I have been using Federal's which are notoriously soft and seems to flatten just by looking at them sideways. I have been using up the Feds and started using the CCI SRP's and found they flatten almost as easy. Even with modest loads. Knowing the loads are well below published maximums and all other safety precautions being followed I decided it is okay to have some flattening (But not all flattened). BTW, I have tried the CCI 41's and found they do not flatten like the others.
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Just to be clear, there's no problem with flattening the primers, right? That's more a characteristic of the material that the primer is made from. Bulging and cratering are problems.
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Just to be clear, there's no problem with flattening the primers, right? That's more a characteristic of the material that the primer is made from. Bulging and cratering are problems.
Not from my standpoint. If I shot 10 rounds of the exact same load and one primer was flattened I would not be terribly concerned depending on which brand/type it is. But if every (or almost every) primer is flattened then I would be concerned no matter what brand/type it is. I would try the exact same load with a known harder primer and determine if there is still flattening occurring. If so then it has nothing to do with the characteristics of the primer material. And it has everything to do with an over pressure situation. If there are no signs of flattening with the harder primers I would then consider the flattening being caused by the brand/type of primer. These signs of over pressure are not black and white and need to be examined carefully and diagnosed carefully.
Flattening is a beginning sign of over pressure. One must use judgement and experience to properly read the signs. I applaud Dogman for asking this question. He is learning some valuable information from the experienced hand loaders here. Just like I learn from all of them. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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450s are the small rifle magnum. Nice hard cup, I use those in Lapua small rifle .308 brass for some hot 155 grain loads. It handles.
Wolf or PMC large rifle primers are good stuff too. They net low ES/SD numbers, are budget priced, and have sufficiently hard cups.
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For floating firing pin type rifles, I'd avoid using soft primers like federal. Slamfires are not unheard of.
For Garand or AR I use the CCI military primers of the appropriate size. They are hard enough to avoid slamfires when incidentally struck by the floating firing pin.
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For floating firing pin type rifles, I'd avoid using soft primers like federal. Slamfires are not unheard of.
I was having slamfire problems last time. I figured it was the adjustment on my trigger but could be the Federal Match primers I'm using. Time to switch to CCI.
Johnny talks about flat primers in his latest video and compares the results between his Tikka and Savage.
https://youtu.be/D5xyzYVwS10?t=32m14s
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Putting this out there for information purposes. https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2015/08/12/reloading-101-case-diagnostics/
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Thanks for the replies guys. Here is a better photograph of the 44 grain charge. The case on the left is the case from the top left of the original photo and typical of the cases at the top row from that photograph, so at least one flattened primer per 44, 44.5, 45 and 45.5 grain charge. The case on the right is typical of the majority of the rest of the cases. I still plan on shooting the 46 grain charge. I am taking into account all the replies but if the majority of the primers were flattened on a max charge as in the photo, would they still be considered on the safe side?
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Thanks for the replies guys. Here is a better photograph of the 44 grain charge. The case on the left is the case from the top left of the original photo and typical of the cases at the top row from that photograph, so at least one flattened primer per 44, 44.5, 45 and 45.5 grain charge. The case on the right is typical of the majority of the rest of the cases. I still plan on shooting the 46 grain charge. I am taking into account all the replies but if the majority of the primers were flattened on a max charge as in the photo, would they still be considered on the safe side?
I am still a little perplexed as to why one case in each charge weight had a primer flatten to that extent...
The one on the left looks as though it's reaching a limit, as it looks like the primer is flowing out of the pocket.
In my loading all primers of the same charge look about the same....
Few more questions. How are you measuring OAL? Did you measure from the base of the case to the tip of the bullet? If so did you adjust the seater die to make all the rounds the same exact OAL?
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Did you measure from the base of the case to the tip of the bullet? If so did you adjust the seater die to make all the rounds the same exact OAL?
Yes with my well used dial caliper, I do all my reloading at work (not during work) and Yes, using a Redding Competition Seater in a Rockchucker, none were over 2.80" and a few went under with the shortest at .004" short.
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How was the groupings?
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wow, the 46 must've all gone right through the black square
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wow, the 46 must've all gone right through the black square
Focus
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Focus
heads
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Looks good. I'd say shoot the 46 grain(don't adjust your scope). The group should fall in the same area as the 45-45.5. If it does play with seating depth, of the 45.5, to bring the group together.
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Looks good. I'd say shoot the 46 grain(don't adjust your scope). The group should fall in the same area as the 45-45.5. If it does play with seating depth, of the 45.5, to bring the group together.
Mahalo :thumbsup:
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heads
No that's Ren...I'm "more amps"...... focus!
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I am still a little perplexed as to why one case in each charge weight had a primer flatten to that extent...
This is the reason I started this topic, to see if this is common . . . apparently not.
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This is the reason I started this topic, to see if this is common . . . apparently not.
Huuum. Didn't change seat depths... How about seating force? Did some bullets feel more difficult to seat than others? Did you apply any crimp afterwards?
We'll get to the bottom of this. :thumbsup:
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Huuum. Didn't change seat depths... How about seating force? Did some bullets feel more difficult to seat than others? Did you apply any crimp afterwards?
We'll get to the bottom of this. :thumbsup:
The bullets pressed in with no effort, no crimp. Using Kaleo Arms processed brass so all I do is deburr case mouth, prime, add powder and seat.
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I have a chronograph if you'd like to get an idea of velocity
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I have a chronograph if you'd like to get an idea of velocity
Since I'm sure your presence, knowledge and advice comes with that offer, YES.
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Okay, shot the 46 grains...one flattened primer. I decided to load max, 46.5C, five shots one flattened primer. I shot some American Eagle 150 grain FMJBT...see for yourself. I loaded and shot 18 rounds with 45.5 grains, two flattened primers.
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Looks good. I'd say shoot the 46 grain(don't adjust your scope). The group should fall in the same area as the 45-45.5. If it does play with seating depth, of the 45.5, to bring the group together.
Yep the 46 grouping looked like the 45 & 45.5, the 46.5C spead out, maybe I was getting tired. I shot the one 45.5 round I had left from last week at the same target (A) from last week before I shot the 46 & 46.5. I shot the 45.5 (B) after the 46.5, made a small adjustment to the scope and decided to FOCUS and shot the 45.5 (C). I shot the American Eagle rounds last.
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Okay, shot the 46 grains...one flattened primer. I decided to load max, 46.5C, five shots one flattened primer. I shot some American Eagle 150 grain FMJBT...see for yourself. I loaded and shot 18 rounds with 45.5 grains, two flattened primers.
Wow, that's some serious flattening but only on the ones that did. Crazy. So what is the history of the primers? Where did they come from? How do you store them? Could they be Feds instead of CCI?
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Okay, shot the 46 grains...one flattened primer. I decided to load max, 46.5C, five shots one flattened primer. I shot some American Eagle 150 grain FMJBT...see for yourself. I loaded and shot 18 rounds with 45.5 grains, two flattened primers.
Dogman,
Can you take a closeup of the side of the cases with flattened primers? I am looking for possible stretch marks or discoloration near the case head. If those marks exist it means a headspace problem on those cases. It might help to narrow down your issue.
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Wow, that's some serious flattening but only on the ones that did. Crazy. So what is the history of the primers? Where did they come from? How do you store them? Could they be Feds instead of CCI?
Purchased the primers recently from SEC, stored properly. I don't have any Federal Primers. Wouldn't the AE rounds I shot use Fed primers?
Dogman,
Can you take a closeup of the side of the cases with flattened primers? I am looking for possible stretch marks or discoloration near the case head. If those marks exist it means a headspace problem on those cases. It might help to narrow down your issue.
Will do Inspector, probably this evening.
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Purchased the primers recently from SEC, stored properly. I don't have any Federal Primers. Wouldn't the AE rounds I shot use Fed primers?
Will do Inspector, probably this evening.
Dogman,
One more thing. Did you notice whether the flattened primers happen regularly? In other words it always happens every 4th round or every 5th round? Considering you are only seeing this happen with one out of every group (of 5?) I am just curious if this is occurring regularly. Just trying to put more information together as this is really odd.
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Uummm, that's pretty nice groups for mixed headstamp military brass.
If I was working up a load, I would try to get at least the same headstamps.
In the 46.5C pic, Am I seeing 2005, 2006 and 2012 brass?
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The primers look almost melted. Primer pocket too loose on some of cases? Just spit balling...
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I'd go with Dave's suggestion on checking headspace. The brass is pre-processed, so they are probably sized to minimum size so that they'll work in any chamber. Maybe a few are too short, base to shoulder. That could happen with application of too much lube, especially if the die is already set to size the maximum amount.
Also, rem700s are not known for tightest of chambers. That's not a necessarily a bad thing. But just something that one should be aware of.
Was the rounds being fired one right after another? Did you chamber any rounds in the hot rifle and have it sitting for a few minutes before breaking the shot?
Having a hot rifle isn't necessarily a bad thing for load development, however, I don't like to have rounds sitting in the hot chamber too long before breaking a shot. I usually chamber the round right when I'm ready to shoot. I actually want the barrel to be hot during LD, That way I can find the most consistent load for cold bore and hot as well.
I think your 45.5 load is the sweet spot for your rifle. Slight adjustment of seating depth in .002" increments will find the tightest groups in no time.
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I'd go with Dave's suggestion on checking headspace. The brass is pre-processed, so they are probably sized to minimum size so that they'll work in any chamber. Maybe a few are too short, base to shoulder. That could happen with application of too much lube, especially if the die is already set to size the maximum amount.
Exactly what I was thinking. Or possibly the use of two different sizing dies set differently with the brass from two different sizing dies being intermixed? The thing that bothers me is this does not seem random enough. For instance, why isn't there 2 or more flattened primers per group? Or two flattened primers in one group and not in another group? Which is why I asked if this happens exactly every 5th round? Or maybe the last round of each group? Or something that would show consistency. Right now the one flattened primer per group seems too consistent for something that should be totally random.
Dogman,
From what I read you used the cases directly from Kaleo without resizing them yourself before reloading them? Is this correct? Could you have possibly mixed some cases straight from Kaleo with some you resized yourself? I would like to ask you to carefully resize a number of cases yourself, reload them as normal for 2 or 3 groups and then retry some of your testing to see if this still occurs. With your cases resized consistently you should see more consistent results as far as the primer flattening is concerned. Either all flattened or none flattened. If you still get the same one flattened primer per group then we can probably eliminate a headspace problem.
Another question. When closing the bolt on each round did you ever notice that one round per group was much harder to close the bolt on than the rest? Just trying to determine if your bullets were shoved up against the lands in the chamber for some rounds and maybe not for others. Just another theory I am chasing in case the headspace theory goes nowhere.
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Exactly what I was thinking. Or possibly the use of two different sizing dies set differently with the brass from two different sizing dies being intermixed? The thing that bothers me is this does not seem random enough. For instance, why isn't there 2 or more flattened primers per group? Or two flattened primers in one group and not in another group? Which is why I asked if this happens exactly every 5th round? Or maybe the last round of each group? Or something that would show consistency. Right now the one flattened primer per group seems too consistent for something that should be totally random.
Dogman,
From what I read you used the cases directly from Kaleo without resizing them yourself before reloading them? Is this correct? Could you have possibly mixed some cases straight from Kaleo with some you resized yourself? I would like to ask you to carefully resize a number of cases yourself, reload them as normal for 2 or 3 groups and then retry some of your testing to see if this still occurs. With your cases resized consistently you should see more consistent results as far as the primer flattening is concerned. Either all flattened or none flattened. If you still get the same one flattened primer per group then we can probably eliminate a headspace problem.
Another question. When closing the bolt on each round did you ever notice that one round per group was much harder to close the bolt on than the rest? Just trying to determine if your bullets were shoved up against the lands in the chamber for some rounds and maybe not for others. Just another theory I am chasing in case the headspace theory goes nowhere.
That's what I was thinking, the "Ogive" factor creating higher pressures. :geekdanc:
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That's what I was thinking, the "Ogive" factor creating higher pressures. :geekdanc:
Exactly. I have reloaded for one of my bolt guns where I kept the bullet .001 or .002 off the lands. And occasionally I have a round or two that would touch the lands prior to completely closing the bolt. I chalked it up to my not using the most precise and accurate equipment and possibly the "Ogive" factor. More than likely the human error factor. :oops: :oops: :oops:
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That's what I was thinking, the "Ogive" factor creating higher pressures. :geekdanc:
Rock, there is no way the ogive is touching in a factory Remington chamber with 150 grain boolits.
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Rock, there is no way the ogive is touching in a factory Remington chamber with 150 grain boolits.
Well, that blows that theory! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Remington 700 chambers are notorious for having a very long lead to the lands and grooves. Unless something is cut wrong in this particular rifle..
It's like that for safety factor, because they don't know what kind of ammo people will put in there.
At mag length, a boolits ogive is nowhere near the throat
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I did buy some 556 brass from Kaleo for the "just in case" times. I measured the shoulder bump with a RCBS precision mic and it is bumped quite a bit back. I think most brass guys do it so it fits in any and all chambers. Nice looking brass and I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them again if needed.
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Since Dogman isn't sizing the brass, could the bullet, on some cases be setting back when chambering? Possibly from not enough neck tension on some cases? I don't believe it was mentioned that he was seating "X" amount off the lands so he's proably book length COAL.
I would neck size some of the brass and try another test batch. At some point he may want to know exactly where his headspace is by finding where his bolt is hard to close. From there bump .002" or whatever he feels good with.
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As stated previously there's no way the bullet loaded at 2.80 is gonna touch the lands,and looking at the factory ammo you shot it doesn't look like your getting the flattened issues like the other brass. I would guess the brass that you got could be sized back to much for your rifle. I would suggest you measure your fired cases and then bump the shoulder back .0015-.002 and load a few and see how that helps your primer issue
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Wow, I have a few things to address here. Thanks for the thoughts guys. Lets start with this.
Dogman,
Can you take a closeup of the side of the cases with flattened primers? I am looking for possible stretch marks or discoloration near the case head. If those marks exist it means a headspace problem on those cases. It might help to narrow down your issue.
The cases with the flattened primers do have a ring approximately 3/8" from the case head. This is only on the cases with the flattened primers. The photo on the right has cases with flattened primer on the right and good primers on the left. Significant?
Ohh, the close ups with the four cases, the case on the right does not have a flattened primer...for comparison.
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Wow, I have a few things to address here. Thanks for the thoughts guys. Lets start with this.The cases with the flattened primers do have a ring approximately 3/8" from the case head. This is only on the cases with the flattened primers. The photo on the right has cases with flattened primer on the right and good primers on the left. Significant?
the cases are also a different color
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the cases are also a different color
Lighting
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Lighting
oh
sorry
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oh
sorry
(http://www.lyndhurstohdentist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/smile-teeth.jpg)
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(http://www.lyndhurstohdentist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/smile-teeth.jpg)
that's not lighting
the veneers are only on the upper premolars and anteriors
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Wow, I have a few things to address here. Thanks for the thoughts guys. Lets start with this.The cases with the flattened primers do have a ring approximately 3/8" from the case head. This is only on the cases with the flattened primers. The photo on the right has cases with flattened primer on the right and good primers on the left. Significant?
Ohh, the close ups with the four cases, the case on the right does not have a flattened primer...for comparison.
Okay, we have made a lot of progress here. That ring, without being able to see the cases in person, looks like a headspace issue. This stretching of the case is typical of a cartridge that is headspaced forward of the bolt too far. The question remains why just certain cases and not others. But the solution is a simple one. Resize your brass properly before reloading. It may take a little trial and error to get the shoulder bumped back to the proper place but that is what appears to me to be the problem.
I want to say to everyone here that reloads, when you get brass from any source, new or once fired, processed or not, I highly recommend you resize all the cases and do your due diligence preparation before you reload them.
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if it is stretching around that external ring get a paper clip and feel on the inside of the case if there is a depression
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I have first seen first hand case seperation from cases that have been "over" full length sized. I prefer to get once fired brass and prep them myself. What can I say, I'm cheap and will take any brass. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Dogman,
I don't recommend you reload those cases that have that ring. While they may take another reload or two or five, having a case head separation can be a pain in the ass. And with brass being so cheap these days I wouldn't chance it. However, if you have access to a bandsaw or similar it would be interesting to cut them length wise to see how thin the walls of the case have thinned in that area. Old timers sometimes use a paper clip or similar to feel for a bulge in the brass. But putting a caliper on it would be more telling.
It honestly doesn't look bad but safety is always ones biggest concern so consider not reloading them.
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Dogman,
I don't recommend you reload those cases that have that ring. While they may take another reload or two or five, having a case head separation can be a pain in the ass. And with brass being so cheap these days I wouldn't chance it. However, if you have access to a bandsaw or similar it would be interesting to cut them length wise to see how thin the walls of the case have thinned in that area. Old timers sometimes use a paper clip or similar to feel for a bulge in the brass. But putting a caliper on it would be more telling.
It honestly doesn't look bad but safety is always ones biggest concern so consider not reloading them.
Wise words!!
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This is only my third batch of loading 308. The only 308 die I have is the Redding seater die, so the only prepped cases I have are from Kaleo Arms with no checking measurements or resizing by me.
Lesson learned, due diligence.
I did not organize the fired cases in firing order but I will next time.
I loaded one round...shot one round...about one round a minute as I got off about 15 to 20 rounds between cease fires.
The bolt was harder to close in some rounds and I looked at the primers on those and they looked okay, however I need reading glasses, which I didn't use, so maybe not, next time I will bring a magnifying glass.
I load a lot of revolver rounds, just started loading 9mm coated bullets, only shot ten and just loaded 50 more.
I have only done a few 223 rounds with Kaleo Arms brass with no issues.
So were the rounds in question damaging or dangerous? I will not reuse those cases.
Lots more to learn.
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Dogman,
if you have access to a bandsaw or similar
i'm pretty sure he has "or similar" taken care of
:worship:
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I do want to say that even though the issue is obvious as to what happened here, that the brass that Kaleo sells is good brass. I have a friend that buys and uses their brass a lot. If I needed brass I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them. No one can sell a product to work perfectly in every firearm. Which is why us reloaders set up our equipment specifically for our firearms.
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i'm pretty sure he has "or similar" taken care of
:worship:
I'm pretty sure I am not on the inside as they say on this one...
Maybe someone will enlighten me?
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I'm pretty sure I am not on the inside as they say on this one...
Maybe someone will enlighten me?
LOL
more amps...
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I do want to say that even though the issue is obvious as to what happened here, that the brass that Kaleo sells is good brass. I have a friend that buys and uses their brass a lot. If I needed brass I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them. No one can sell a product to work perfectly in every firearm. Which is why us reloaders set up our equipment specifically for our firearms.
agreed
kaleo makes great brass at very reasonable prices
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But putting a caliper on it would be more telling.
i'd bet he has a caliper "or similar" too
:wave:
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Dogman have you measured any of the cases that you have? if not it would be good to know the measurements of the kaleo prepped brass and your already fired brass.
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Dogman have you measured any of the cases that you have? if not it would be good to know the measurements of the kaleo prepped brass and your already fired brass.
You mean the overall length of the cases? I have the brass at work, I will measure some tomorrow.
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No from the base of the case to the shoulder datum line
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No from the base of the case to the shoulder datum line
New to this, google here I come.
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The datum line is a diameter on the shoulder .308 is .400" which you can determine the case head space . So by measuring from the base of the case to the datum line on the shoulder you can determine the case headspace for your rifle. Finding this out will let you know if the cases that you have are size down to much for your rifle (excessive headspace) possibly causing your primer issues
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The datum line is a diameter on the shoulder .308 is .400" which you can determine the case head space . So by measuring from the base of the case to the datum line on the shoulder you can determine the case headspace for your rifle. Finding this out will let you know if the cases that you have are size down to much for your rifle (excessive headspace) possibly causing your primer issues
Mahalo, things are starting to make more sense to me now. Just watched the video again that Heavies posted earlier "Measure Headspace" and it's easier to relate to it now, since it matters to what I am doing.
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The datum line is a diameter on the shoulder .308 is .400" which you can determine the case head space . So by measuring from the base of the case to the datum line on the shoulder you can determine the case headspace for your rifle. Finding this out will let you know if the cases that you have are size down to much for your rifle (excessive headspace) possibly causing your primer issues
This :thumbsup:
Mahalo, things are starting to make more sense to me now. Just watched the video again that Heavies posted earlier "Measure Headspace" and it's easier to relate to it now, since it matters to what I am doing.
Was going to mention that. :shaka:
Wow, I have a few things to address here. Thanks for the thoughts guys. Lets start with this.The cases with the flattened primers do have a ring approximately 3/8" from the case head. This is only on the cases with the flattened primers. The photo on the right has cases with flattened primer on the right and good primers on the left. Significant?
Ohh, the close ups with the four cases, the case on the right does not have a flattened primer...for comparison.
Looking at the photos, it looks like incipient case head separation on those cases. Looks like you can see some spots on the brass where hot gas has created pin holes through the case. Those cases are suspect, IMHO, don't reuse them for sure. You could take a small paperclip and bend it into a "L" shape to fit into the case mouth and feel the inside wall of the case. You may feel a thinning of the brass in that area.
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20622245_1759075677718696_7618244228662411271_n.jpg?oh=fd0a7f72282380193779f6a4816da62b&oe=59EB424D)
My theory of what is happening.
Kaleo brass, being prepossessed, is probably sized to maximum, allowing them to fit most chambers. Some cases, may or may not be sized a little too much. Possibly because application of too much lube can push the case shoulder back further than spec. Or the might be just sized to the max allowable, yet still within spec.
As mentioned earlier, Remington chambers are know to be generous. Stacking of tolerances may be contributing to the problem. Everything on it's own is per spec, but if you add maximum sized cases plus a generous chamber might be causing the problem of excessive headspacing.
Try and measure a bunch of the cases and see where they fall within that correct spec. If there is a discrepancy with those numbers, the shortest of the cases might just be the problem.
If you find that the cases are real short in headspace I'd recommend a easier tool to check the cases prior to reloading them
Wilson headspace gage in .308, is a good tool for this, you can just plop the cases into the gage and quickly see if the case is sized too much, too little, or just right. You could then easily weed out those short cases and still use the other brass.
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So I did some relaoding today so while at it, i brought out those Kaleo Arm's brass that I bought at the gun show. Granted these are 556 and not 762 like Dogman's so take it for what it's worth. I measured the shoulder bump, most were in the .009" range but some were as much as .012". This is measured from the 223 rem spec of 1.4636/1.4736 using an RCBS Precision Mic. I bump my shoulders back .002" on my bolt gun and .005" on my ARs and semi autos. I have never had the need to use small base dies so my chambers may be considered "not tight". I can see why some brass processors would do this to accomodate any chamber that their customer may have.
The ID of the neck was averaging about .215". Not sure why they size this small but I will just run them over my FL sizing die's expanding ball before loading. I'm usually around .003" neck tension.
With that said, I would buy again if the need arises.
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if it is stretching around that external ring get a paper clip and feel on the inside of the case if there is a depression
Did this, yep very obvious depression, I didn't think it would be that drastic.
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Did this, yep very obvious depression, I didn't think it would be that drastic.
The stretching on an over sized case will most times be in the area where Heavies highlighted. Right above the head. Over working brass will severely shorten the life.
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Dogman have you measured any of the cases that you have? if not it would be good to know the measurements of the kaleo prepped brass and your already fired brass.
No from the base of the case to the shoulder datum line
So I whipped up a quick "gauge" so if the data seems off, thats why, should be consistent though. The datum diameter ended up at .401". I measured 30 processed unfired cases, 23 measured 1.640" +/-.002 and seven cases were 1.625"+/- .002. The fired cases measure 1.640" +/- regardless of the primer condition. BTW I will be getting a real headspace gauge.
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So I whipped up a quick "gauge" so if the data seems off, thats why, should be consistent though. The datum diameter ended up at .401". I measured 30 processed unfired cases, 23 measured 1.640" +/-.002 and seven cases were 1.625"+/- .002. The fired cases measure 1.640" +/- regardless of the primer condition. BTW I will be getting a real headspace gauge.
more amps
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Hi all... just got back on island. Perhaps some processing info from our end might help out.
The 762 primer pockets are actually more on the tighter side (esp when compared to 556). On a side note, fast and friendly brass makes fantastic swap-in parts for the Dillons. We switched to the FFB swage rods a year or so ago, and they are a much better quality.
Bushido, you are spot on that the brass companies (us included) do bump the shoulder back so that the case will fit the majority of guns. Because of spring tension, to get the 762 back to size it takes three full length sizes and two neck sizes. The military brass is considerably thicker than commercial and is just tougher to size. Early on, we learned that the Dillon trim die shrinks the neck so a second neck sizer is on the last station. Also, taking your comments on the 556 neck size into consideration, we will likely modify the 556 final station to mirror the 762 set up. In terms of case length, our 556 and 762 are trimmed to the longer side, and 300blk is cut to a more mid-length spec. The reasoning behind this is that material can be trimmed but its pretty impossible to add back on. As with any operation there will variance (we post +/- .005 but the variance is typically closer to +/- .003). We also second using the LE Wilson gauge to check case sizing. Also, the majority of our brass is processed in large batches to minimize variances between setups. When we cleared inventory in Q1 of this year, tighter batch organization was implemented.
In general, we've found that there are two groups of reloaders: the reload because it is cheaper (no shame! us too...) and the precision reloaders. For the former group, the variance of bulk is an acceptable cost/benefit, but for the latter group, we started offering a more customized line of brass ('artisan'). If you wanted specific case dimensions (trim length & shoulder bump etc) this could be a worthwhile option to consider. Its a couple cents more per piece, but we still aim to keep it in the affordable range.
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So I whipped up a quick "gauge" so if the data seems off, thats why, should be consistent though. The datum diameter ended up at .401". I measured 30 processed unfired cases, 23 measured 1.640" +/-.002 and seven cases were 1.625"+/- .002. The fired cases measure 1.640" +/- regardless of the primer condition. BTW I will be getting a real headspace gauge.
That's an awesome tool!
1.640 looks to be max chamber size. 1.625 looks like it would get .015 of play from the back of the brass to the bolt face.
I think you've found the problem.
(http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s442/f67stang2/b_194151_zpsee88b8a7.jpg)
Brass maybe a little out of spec and maybe fine for one cycle of firing for a case, such as in military application, where brass is considered a consumable in most instances, but for reloading it may not work out so well.
I'd recommend using the brass closest to your 1.640 chamber size.
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What I think is happening.
Firing pin strikes primer, pushing the cartridge all the way forward in the chamber.
Primer ignites powder, 60,000+ psi expands case, expanding the brass, brass sticks to chamber walls.
Primer is pushed out of case .015" pressure flattens it against the bolt face.
Case stretches back .015" slamming against bolt face and re seats primer flattened into the primer pocket.
Since the front of the case is still sealed against the chamber, the case head is pulled apart from the main case body. (Undesirable)
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Of course, all this is no knock on Kaleo, I too use their pre processed brass in 5.56, and have had great results with it.
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What I think is happening.
Firing pin strikes primer, pushing the cartridge all the way forward in the chamber.
Primer ignites powder, 60,000+ psi expands case, expanding the brass, brass sticks to chamber walls.
Primer is pushed out of case .015" pressure flattens it against the bolt face.
Case stretches back .015" slamming against bolt face and re seats primer flattened into the primer pocket.
Since the front of the case is still sealed against the chamber, the case head is pulled apart from the main case body. (Undesirable)
Sorry, so why is this happening in 1 in 5 rounds?
In terms of case length, our 556 and 762 are trimmed to the longer side, and 300blk is cut to a more mid-length spec.
I started noticing this with the 300BLK Hornady brass and the brass I bought from you at the gun show so I started to convert my own.
I do like you stuff. Do you have a store front or just internet sales? I couldn't see it on your website. :shaka:
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Sorry, so why is this happening in 1 in 5 rounds?
I measured 30 processed unfired cases, 23 measured 1.640" +/-.002 and seven cases were 1.625"+/- .002. The fired cases measure 1.640" +/- regardless of the primer condition.
^ This
Seven out of 30 cases were short . . . not one out of five but close enough. So theoretically, I believe, if I load and fire these 30 cases, seven would have flattened primers and stretched cases.
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I think you've found the problem.
Noooo . . . You guys found the problem :thumbsup:
You guys are awesome.
I think it's great how when a problem is posted, those that can help do!
I learned a lot here.
Mahalo :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I will load the 1.64" cases and confirm the diaognosis :shaka:
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So have we concluded that the rounds are not over pressured, just some are too short?
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So have we concluded that the rounds are not over pressured, just some are too short?
Yes we determined that there was no over pressure situation. The cartridge overall length was assumed to be correct. And the case length was assumed to be correct. It was the location of the shoulder that caused this. How do you define "too short"?
This is an example of why I always stress that reading primers can be very misleading.
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How do you define "too short"?
Quote from: dogman on August 08, 2017, 09:36:51 PM
I measured 30 processed unfired cases, 23 measured 1.640" +/-.002 and seven cases were 1.625"+/- .002. The fired cases measure 1.640" +/- regardless of the primer condition.
^ This
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Do you have a store front or just internet sales?
This summer we began renovating a site that will a storefront, new manufacturing facility, and warehouse, but it is not in Hawaii. The facility in North Dakota is a decommissioned ICBM launch support building, but it sat vacant since 1996 so it needs a lot of work. For now, it will probably remain internet sales in Hawaii, but we're pretty available to come chat at the Hawaii Kai range or do local drop off/pick up. We will still live in Honolulu (winter is way too cold in North Dakota...) so Kaleo will still be in Hawaii just with an mainland extension. Steep storefront rent is the main prohibitive factor on a local storefront tbh.
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For now, it will probably remain internet sales in Hawaii, but we're pretty available to come chat at the Hawaii Kai range or do local drop off/pick up.
just meet at kahala mcdonald's
:wave: :worship:
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Are you measuring the FPS or just looking at primers. What is the ideal shoulder length you are looking for? I can tell you from experience military cases respond differently than commercial brass.
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Are you measuring the FPS or just looking at primers. What is the ideal shoulder length you are looking for? I can tell you from experience military cases respond differently than commercial brass.
Minimum headspace is 1.630" so a case that is sized 1.625" shot in a chamber that is 1.640" is a little too short. I have known many experienced reloaders that don't use chronographs to come up with loads for rifles and pistol. I don't consider that mandatory equipment to reload. Dogman's loads are within published load data and considered safe. It is true that military brass, being thicker, will need a lighter load, as pressures will increase quicker than in thinner commercial brass.
The original question was that of looking at the primer, and what a primer should look like during load development. As pointed out there was an obvious anomaly, and we all are working through it. With the conditions as they are in this instance, a chronograph wouldn't have shown anything excessive, as the lightest to the heaviest load had the primer flattening issue.
Not sure what you are being critical about?
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So have we concluded that the rounds are not over pressured, just some are too short?
Some rounds had excessive headspace, which caused flattened primers, and incipient case head separation.
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The scratches are from the paper clip ;D
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The scratches are from the paper clip ;D
Very telling. :o
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The scratches are from the paper clip ;D
nice "or similar"
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So along the same lines as the finding of this thread. Has anyone had success "fire forming" cases that have excessive headspace? I have quite a bit of cases that are over full length sized. I've tried without success to blow the shoulder forward but without stretching the body.
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I have known many experienced reloaders that don't use chronographs to come up with loads for rifles and pistol.
I just bought a used Caldwell Deluxe and plan to use it at KH. I'm told to use the left side tables where it's flatter, place it ten feet out, and use the LED attachments to cut down on errors. At this time, I'm not interested in prone but might. I haven't tried prone since the late 80s. Any advice?
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So along the same lines as the finding of this thread. Has anyone had success "fire forming" cases that have excessive headspace? I have quite a bit of cases that are over full length sized. I've tried without success to blow the shoulder forward but without stretching the body.
There are ways to do it, but I won't detail here, as it can go in a bad way in a hurry if not done properly, also, you'd need things like expander mandrel and bushing neck dies, corn meal, and other stuff...
One could do research on fireformimg wildcat cases to get an idea.
Do at your own risk and peril. Not worth the trouble on redily available brass, IMHO.
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I just bought a used Caldwell Deluxe and plan to use it at KH. I'm told to use the left side tables where it's flatter, place it ten feet out, and use the LED attachments to cut down on errors. At this time, I'm not interested in prone but might. I haven't tried prone since the late 80s. Any advice?
I've used chronograph on the left side from the table and on the ground. You need to get to the range early, before hot time, so you can take time to line everything up right. That may take a while to get it perfect so you don't inadvertently ventilate the electronic parts.. and even then, since you cannot handle weapons, you are just eyeballing it. There have been times I had to wait till the next cease fire to make appropriate adjustments.
For the table, you'd need to mount it on a tripod to get it up high enough to get a line of sight to the target. You'll need to bring something to tie to the tripod to weigh it down so the wind dont blow it over. Problem with optical chronograph are that different lighting conditions can give erroneous results. I.e. you could get different readings from morning to afternoon or sun vs clouds etc.. muzzle blast from neighbors or even your own rifles can also cause problems.
I got tired of messing with the tripod too much and started going prone instead, but that also poses issues such as grass being too high, still needing to weigh down with sandbags or something.
That's when I gave up on all that hassle and got a magneto speed. Everything can be done from the firing point and no need to worry about wind, lighting, neighbors muzzle blast, etc.
Labradar.... ooooooh even better. Maybe one day, if there is ever 1000 yards to shoot at...
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Maybe one day, if there is ever 1000 yards to shoot at...
Good to know about the sand bags. Supposedly the LED strips make it more reliable but not sure about it in the direct sunlight.
You could try shooting at targets on Molokai, or would that be endangering the public? ::)
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Good to know about the sand bags. Supposedly the LED strips make it more reliable but not sure about it in the direct sunlight.
You could try shooting at targets on Molokai, or would that be endangering the public? ::)
I have a roll of LEDs. Just need time to rig something up Power supply etc
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There are ways to do it, but I won't detail here, as it can go in a bad way in a hurry if not done properly, also, you'd need things like expander mandrel and bushing neck dies, corn meal, and other stuff...
One could do research on fireformimg wildcat cases to get an idea.
Do at your own risk and peril. Not worth the trouble on redily available brass, IMHO.
+1 :thumbsup: I wouldn't even bother if it wasn't premium brass such as lapua,nosler etc.. because your gonna have to buy tooling or waste bullets and powder
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So have we concluded that the rounds are not over pressured, just some are too short?
Confirmed. Loaded and fired 50 rounds after weeding out the short cases, no flattened primers! Thanks for the feedback guys. :thumbsup:
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Confirmed. Loaded and fired 50 rounds after weeding out the short cases, no flattened primers! Thanks for the feedback guys. :thumbsup:
Awesome!
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I'm very particular about my COAL but haven't gotten into bumping the shoulder yet. There's always something new to try. Ren might say it's my Torment of Tantalus.
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I'm very particular about my COAL but haven't gotten into bumping the shoulder yet. There's always something new to try. Ren might say it's my Torment of Tantalus.
More along the lines of watching a spider monkey hump a football.
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That would more accurately describe all politics these days.
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I'm very particular about my COAL but haven't gotten into bumping the shoulder yet. There's always something new to try. Ren might say it's my Torment of Tantalus.
COAL (base of brass to top of bullet) is not near as important as the headspace, for safety and accuracy.
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COAL (base of brass to top of bullet) is not near as important as the headspace, for safety and accuracy.
I know. One step at a time. Don't want to make too many changes in my reloading at a time, you know.
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COAL (base of brass to top of bullet) is not near as important as the headspace, for safety and accuracy.
So, since the problem was found and no harm was done I was going to load all the cases regardless of datum length and toss the fired cases with flattened primers and rings from stretching. I decided to check the brass from my first batch of reloads (the brass in the original post was my second batch) with flattened primers and found this.
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The results of a couple of light taps with a hammer . . .
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The results of a couple of light taps with a hammer . . .
Yep that's no good.. :o :shake: Would be a real pain if the end broke off and left the body of the case in the chamber. Or worse, debris/hot gasses getting your eyes.
ATA: When saying COAL isn't as important, I mean a few thou here and there... just to be clearer.. The bullet still needs to be within a certain range, not crammed too deep in the case and not jammed against the lands.
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I forget, are you using any kind of case gauge?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YYse19DlL.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Reloading-Length-Headspace-Gauge/dp/B002RJURSM
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I forget, are you using any kind of case gauge?
Not yet but soon. I made this and use a dial caliper to sort out the short cases (base to datum).