Post by: Influence on November 14, 2017, 04:26:33 PM
While I'm not new to shooting, I'd be new to CCW and feel I may have an irrational fear about carrying with a round in the chamber without a manual safety or da/sa. I say irrational as I'd buy a quality holster and would holster the gun prior to clipping it on IWB, so it would never come out unless I'm back at the hotel or unless I absolutely need to use it and I don't really see how the trigger could "accidentally" be pulled if utilized this way.
The two main setups I was considering up until recently would be either a CZ P-01 with decocker or a S&W M&P 2.0 Compact with Manual Safety (not concerned about AD with the CZ). Currently, I'm debating swapping the M&P to the version without the safety or maybe potentially a glock 19 as I had owned a 23 in the past and shoot glocks well. Regardless, I'd practice daily as far as drawing and holstering goes. I'm taking my setup into careful consideration as I've bought and sold guns at a loss multiple times and want to make sure I choose wisely this time. As far as pistols, I've owned and sold Glock, Sig, and HK. I currently have a CZ Shadow 2 that's a keeper. This CCW gun would also be my HD gun.
Am I the only one who has gone through an internal CCW debate?
Post by: macsak on November 14, 2017, 04:32:38 PM
For those who CCW on the mainland or currently live there, did it take time to get comfortable with concealed carrying with a round in the chamber and no manual safety/decocker? I travel every so often and recently took the CCW class in Vegas and would like to carry on the mainland.
While I'm not new to shooting, I'd be new to CCW and feel I may have an irrational fear about carrying with a round in the chamber. I say irrational as I'd buy a quality holster and would holster the gun prior to clipping it on IWB, so it would never come out unless I'm back at the hotel or unless I absolutely need to use it and I don't really see how the trigger could "accidentally" be pulled if utilized this way.
The two main setups I was considering up until recently would be either a CZ P-01 with decocker or a S&W M&P 2.0 Compact with Manual Safety (not concerned about AD with the CZ). Currently, I'm debating swapping the M&P to the version without the safety or maybe potentially a glock 19 as I had owned a 23 in the past and shoot glocks well. Regardless, I'd practice daily as far as drawing and holstering goes. I'm taking my setup into careful consideration as I've bought and sold guns at a loss multiple times and want to make sure I choose wisely this time. As far as pistols, I've owned and sold Glock, Sig, and HK. I currently have a CZ Shadow 2 that's a keeper. This CCW gun would also be my HD gun.
Am I the only one who has gone through an internal CCW debate?
Israeli carry is only for people like the Israelis who train all the time...
I wouldn't carry unless I was comfortable with one in the chamber and the manual of arms of my carry handgun
Post by: oldfart on November 14, 2017, 05:49:29 PM
Post by: Influence on November 14, 2017, 05:53:28 PM
Regardless, there will be plenty of practice. I don’t plan on going to the mainland again until next year. I just don’t want to purchase a gun, spend money to set it up, and then sell it for a different setup at a loss as I’ve done multiple times in the past.
Post by: drck1000 on November 14, 2017, 06:08:15 PM
For me, transitioning to a gun with thumb safety (like 1911 or even M&P with manual safety) is a no go. At least without a LOT of training.
Post by: tim808 on November 14, 2017, 06:09:14 PM
I'm more worried about accidentally shooting myself or a bystander than saving a fraction of a second to flick the safety off.
Post by: oldfart on November 14, 2017, 06:12:16 PM
Thanks all for your replies. The title is a little misleading and has been changed. I would plan on carrying with a round in the chamber but am currently debating on a manual safety vs no safety at all. I’d practice either way but currently do not feel comfortable with no safety....
Regardless, there will be plenty of practice. I don’t plan on going to the mainland again until next year. I just don’t want to purchase a gun, spend money to set it up, and then sell it for a different setup at a loss as I’ve done multiple times in the past.
Do you shoot with any action pistol clubs here?
If not, you should. You'll get comfortable handling a loaded pistol very quickly.
Post by: Influence on November 14, 2017, 06:15:16 PM
...
Do you shoot with any action pistol clubs here?
If not, you should. You'll get comfortable handling a loaded pistol very quickly.
Planned on doing so but currently swamped at work and haven’t found the time to yet. It’s on my list.
Post by: tim808 on November 14, 2017, 06:16:09 PM
I assume the race guns have a really light trigger
Post by: zippz on November 14, 2017, 06:18:23 PM
Post by: zippz on November 14, 2017, 06:26:19 PM
Other things to do is train so you never miss, movement techniques with a gun, train with a timer or under stress, scenarios, etc.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 14, 2017, 06:36:56 PM
For CCW in general, a striker fired pistol or hammerless revolver is my preference. I've tried a DA/SA P226 in USPSA shooting, and a Glock or P320 is so much simpler.
Rule of thumb -- the simpler the gun, the fewer parts you have to fumble with before getting rounds on target. It literally takes seconds to register the gun didn't go BANG, identify the failure, and correct it. Two shots on target in 2 seconds is the objective. Wasting even one of those seconds could be fatal.
If you ever do carry, I recommend you do dry-fire drills nightly. Drawing safely should be so ingrained that you feel like you're writing with the wrong hand when you do something wrong. Trigger finger and muzzle discipline should be pure instinct with enough practice. Concentrate on correct form and safety. Watch good quality videos and mimic what they do over and over.
Within a week of practice, you'll start forgetting you're even wearing a firearm.
Oh, and I don't know why anyone would not carry one in the chamber. Attacks happen without any warning. Not only are you hoping for the time and mental acuity to rack the slide, but you're reducing your firepower by that round you didn't carry chambered.
Post by: Bushido on November 14, 2017, 07:13:56 PM
Like stated, carry at home cocked but unloaded whenever possible. Only use a quality holster that completely covers the trigger guard!!!! You'll likely have to try a few holsters, in different positions, before you find one you like. Not every body type can carry AIWB comfortably.
Get comfortable drawing from holster loaded. Get training and practice, practice, practice!!!
Post by: oldfart on November 14, 2017, 07:23:53 PM
Oldfart- do they draw or is the pistol in a box?...
I assume the race guns have a really light trigger
Mostly from a holster.
Yes, race guns would be tuned for a light trigger pull.
But like automobile racing, there are different classes. So you can use a stock gun and be competitive against other people using stock guns. The actual rules got more complex over the years but the idea is to keep similar guns together.
Post by: tim808 on November 14, 2017, 08:37:20 PM
Somewhat related - a friend who was a MP was doing live drills while in the guard or reserve and he mistakenly fired his ar into the ground while his team was clustered to enter a building.
He had been up late the night before and didn't know they were going to do live drills. It was hot and he was tired/fatigued and at one point forgot to keep his finger off the trigger
My takeaway from his incident was that if I were lucky enough to ccw is that I would practice when I was compromised (mornings when groggy and late when tired)
Post by: oldfart on November 14, 2017, 09:08:46 PM
Oldfart - interesting...anyone ever mistakenly light one off while drawing?....
Yes
It was a long time ago at a cowboy action shoot.
I don't know if there have been any recent incidents.
I inadvertently let one off while experimenting with different methods of presenting a DA/SA automatic.
Post by: macsak on November 14, 2017, 09:37:20 PM
Planned on doing so but currently swamped at work and haven’t found the time to yet. It’s on my list.
you should attend as many various range days as you can until you are totally comfortable with muzzle and trigger finger discipline
then attend an action pistol match
don't concentrate on speed, only on safety at first
then keep on practicing and participating until you are comfortable with your draw and safety, then think about ccw
everyone has given you great tips here
and you are not wrong for questioning how you are going to carry
we are all different in how we view things, do not do anything you are not comfortable doing
Post by: drck1000 on November 14, 2017, 09:51:11 PM
Post by: tim808 on November 15, 2017, 05:14:47 AM
Reloading nd/ad - forgot finger on the trigger as they hit the slide release? I could see that happening
Malfunction clearing nd/ad - how did that happen? Most of mine were easy to clear - tap, rack, bang. Finger on trigger while racking?
One thing I've seen in person is the shooter is usually tired. Not necessary nd/ad, but other things like casing at the table when range is cold
Post by: 2ahavvaii on November 15, 2017, 08:38:50 AM
Personally i'm more comfortable with da/sa no safety with proper trigger discipline than sa with safety, and especially sa no safety (all assuming round in chamber). I think safeties should not be relied on as they can provide a false sense of security. And from reviewing various CC encounter videos, that extra time you spent attempting to flip the safety or rack the slide can get you killed. Even if its something you practice or compete in, in an actual situation where youre defending your and your family's life and the adrenaline is pumping and you have a split second to react, chances are much greater you'll fuck something up. And that's not even counting being able to hit the assailant AND stop him once you do pull the trigger.
quick video - notice how fast things happen? Notice that in some of the situations, the guy only had 1 arm free or are being physically attacked, which may make both racking the slide and flipping the safety a bit more challenging to say the least (impossible may be a more accurate word). And even if you do manage to rack the gun, notice in the video how some of the guns failed to fire probably because they short stroked and no round was actually chambered?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVPiic-ELoM
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 15, 2017, 09:15:25 AM
So by the time I carried in Nevada, I had total confidence and was in condition 1 at all times. My wife still has to learn this confidence.
I read something also that helped. "Carrying without a round in the chamber is like trying to put your seat belt on right before an accident".
Active Self Protection on youtube has a few videos where racking the slide failed, which cost the victim their lives and others as well.
The only thing I don't keep in condition 1 is my gun AR and shotty, but both sit in the safe 99.99% of the time (leaving only the last Saturday of the month)
Post by: oldfart on November 15, 2017, 10:07:32 AM
Oldfart - interesting...anyone ever mistakenly light one off while drawing?===============
why are you so interested in ad/nd?
As far as I know it's a pretty rare occurrence and during matches, a range officer is shadowing you ALL THE TIME because he is carrying the timer picking up the sound of each shot. Unlike the typical firing range where 1 range officer is watching perhaps 10-15 people.
Post by: Bushido on November 15, 2017, 11:48:46 AM
Active Self Protection on youtube has a few videos where racking the slide failed, which cost the victim their lives and others as well
This is a good YouTube channel for anyone thinking about carrying to watch. Some may disagree with what they teach. No matter what, it shows real
life surveillance videos of shootings which can be very educational. I think many will be surprised how long some gun fights go and the round count involved.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 15, 2017, 11:58:08 AM
This is a good YouTube channel for anyone thinking about carrying to watch. Some may disagree with what they teach. No matter what, it shows real
life surveillance videos of shootings which can be very educational. I think many will be surprised how long some gun fights go and the round count involved.
I agree with the channel being good. The most important thing it teaches is how every situation will be different. You shouldn't carry because of the situations you can predict. You should carry because you want to be prepared for the unexpected. If you can predict trouble, it's smarter to avoid it altogether.
Sometimes the subject of the video is successful. Sometimes they die immediately or not long after the attack. Both allow us to learn valuable lessons without the downside of firsthand experience.
The basics of situational awareness, learning to keep your personal space so you aren't surprised by a fist, maintaining a minimum safe distance when drawing, not chasing the bad guy after the threat is stopped, and so on are reiterated in relevant videos.
I always go to the YouTube video channel. The videos are longer and have all the lessons discussed, The FB videos (I follow his page) are truncated.
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 15, 2017, 12:33:04 PM
1) Wait your turn
2) Don't go chasing the bad guy
3) Carry condition 1
Post by: mrgaf on November 15, 2017, 12:36:03 PM
Post by: G35soldier on November 15, 2017, 12:51:44 PM
Post by: drck1000 on November 15, 2017, 01:14:41 PM
Drck10001) Yup. Finger on trigger.
1) Reloading nd/ad - forgot finger on the trigger as they hit the slide release? I could see that happening
2) Malfunction clearing nd/ad - how did that happen? Most of mine were easy to clear - tap, rack, bang. Finger on trigger while racking?
3) One thing I've seen in person is the shooter is usually tired. Not necessary nd/ad, but other things like casing at the table when range is cold
2) Finger on trigger.
3) I have seen a number of NDs/ADs on unload. Mostly skipping steps. Drop mag, pull trigger, bang. It seems like many are caused by mind on next target and not being mindful of trigger finger discipline.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 15, 2017, 03:16:00 PM
https://youtu.be/a9xIFdCVNOI
Post by: tim808 on November 15, 2017, 06:36:37 PM
I would never put a gun with a chambered round in those holsters
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 15, 2017, 07:36:25 PM
I have two Blackhawk holsters but I only use them at hra fun shoots and gun is unloaded when holstered
I would never put a gun with a chambered round in those holsters
Then one has to wonder, why even use that holster instead of a better, safer one?
If you don't intend to use it for "real world" carry, you should toss it and practice with the one you would use for real.
Post by: tim808 on November 15, 2017, 09:06:19 PM
With the current laws, I see no point in buying a better holster to practice carrying
Post by: oldfart on November 15, 2017, 09:38:44 PM
their good enough for my needs...it holds my unloaded gun at the fun shoots. I don't think iwb holsters are allowed at hra fun shoots....
With the current laws, I see no point in buying a better holster to practice carrying
Yep
Post by: Bcspy on November 15, 2017, 11:05:32 PM
carry my HK2000SK LEM IWB holster condition 1. It like the opposite of a standard DA/SA.
There's two hammers.
The internal one is cocked by the slide and stays cocked.
The external is a DAO.
When you're actually shooting the gun the slide is going to re-cock the internal hammer.
So you have the light pull first and following shots.
Only if you have a bad primer.
And the round doesn't fire.
Then you will get the heavier double action like pull for second strike capability.
I do own HK VP9 striker but prefer LEM for CCW. Law Enforcement Modification trigger.
Post by: 6716J on November 16, 2017, 02:21:46 PM
If I had small kids around, I'd prefer a manual thumb safety, or a 1911 with Hammer, Thumb and Grip safeties. Little hands can find their way to the things they shouldn't no matter how diligent you are. Keeping the gun safe from firing for those who don't know how to work it makes sense.Another good way to practice is with airsoft. People may scoff but you can find almost every pistol made as at least a spring or bb model. GBB is the best as you get the firing and cycling as in a real pistol. And you can shoot it in your home or yard (follow the stoopid laws of shooting airsoft at home). The only things you won't get from GBB airsoft is full recoil
For CCW in general, a striker fired pistol or hammerless revolver is my preference. I've tried a DA/SA P226 in USPSA shooting, and a Glock or P320 is so much simpler.
Rule of thumb -- the simpler the gun, the fewer parts you have to fumble with before getting rounds on target. It literally takes seconds to register the gun didn't go BANG, identify the failure, and correct it. Two shots on target in 2 seconds is the objective. Wasting even one of those seconds could be fatal.
If you ever do carry, I recommend you do dry-fire drills nightly. Drawing safely should be so ingrained that you feel like you're writing with the wrong hand when you do something wrong. Trigger finger and muzzle discipline should be pure instinct with enough practice. Concentrate on correct form and safety. Watch good quality videos and mimic what they do over and over.
Within a week of practice, you'll start forgetting you're even wearing a firearm.
Oh, and I don't know why anyone would not carry one in the chamber. Attacks happen without any warning. Not only are you hoping for the time and mental acuity to rack the slide, but you're reducing your firepower by that round you didn't carry chambered.
and the noise 
. And if you happen to have an ND in airsoft the most you get is a sting and a welt.Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Post by: michaelkih on November 17, 2017, 07:57:48 PM
Post by: Bushido on November 17, 2017, 08:30:27 PM
I may be in the minority here, and I know it's not the right way to do it, but I do not have a round in the chamber when I conceal carrying Texas. The chances of me having to use my gun for protection is almost zero, so I'm not super concerned, and it's still a hell of a lot better than not having a gun at all on me.....like I have to be here in Kauai. :(
I agree 100%. If you're not comfortable carrying with 1 in the chamber, it is far better to carry empty chamber than not carry at all IMO.
Post by: mrgaf on November 17, 2017, 08:40:43 PM
I agree 100%. If you're not comfortable carrying with 1 in the chamber, it is far better to carry empty chamber than not carry at all IMO.True...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 17, 2017, 09:19:58 PM
I may be in the minority here, and I know it's not the right way to do it, but I do not have a round in the chamber when I conceal carrying Texas. The chances of me having to use my gun for protection is almost zero, so I'm not super concerned, and it's still a hell of a lot better than not having a gun at all on me.....like I have to be here in Kauai. :(
If you're basing your decision to not chamber a round on the chance of even needing to use a firearm for self defense, then why carry at all? It's the same probability.
The more appropriate probability to consider would be WHEN you need to use the firearm, what is the chance you'll have the reflexes and time to get that first round chambered before you're dead or incapacitated?
Quote
An empty gun doesn’t do you much good if you need to fire it in under 2 or 3 seconds, especially if you are under extreme duress
in a critical situation. Keep in mind that during an adrenaline dump, you’ll lose control of your finer motor skills. Your hands will seem like
baseball gloves, and racking your firearm or even thinking to do so may elude you when your body is in this fight or flight mode. All you
have to rely on is your training because your body will be on auto-pilot.
http://concealednation.org/2016/03/the-time-differences-between-carrying-a-round-in-the-chamber-and-not/
Post by: zippz on November 17, 2017, 09:31:02 PM
You can get disarmed prior to chambering and have the gun used against you.
If you have to block an attack with one hand, you can't run the slide. Sure you could rack it off your belt or leg one handed, but have you practiced it and can you do it while you're getting attacked?
Same is true if you have something in your hand.
Similarly, in a ground fight with the attacker on top of you. Can you rack the slide one handed while defending yourself.
Also racking the slide in one of these situations raises the risk of a jam.
Post by: aieahound on November 17, 2017, 10:32:37 PM
I gave up 2 rounds, but gained confidence.
(Wanted a Ruger LCR, but traded with a good 2A member and now friend)
Polymer framed revolvers are flyweight and shoot great recoil wise.
To me concealed carry is basically a belly gun.
I don't plan on shooting more than 7 yards. 10 yards max with a concealed carry weapon.
25 yards at Kokohead is ridiculous. But that's another topic.
Post by: drck1000 on November 18, 2017, 01:14:25 AM
I have heard of incidents of pocket carry without a holster or one of those trigger guard cover things and the gun accidentally going off. Haven’t heard of any issues with quality holsters that cover/protects the trigger and trigger guard.
If one prefers to carry with an empty chamber, for whatever reason, to each their own. Be it comfort level, scenarios they envision when they would need the gun, etc. I would just encourage people put thought into it and at least try experiencing what it takes to draw, rack slide then shoot. I’m not big on the 21 foot rule other than that it shocked me how quickly someone can close that distance the first time I experienced that demonstration.
Post by: aieahound on November 18, 2017, 01:51:32 AM
Be prepared to hire a good lawyer. ( and triple mortgage your house ) (active shooter situation excepted)
DAO doesn't go off unless you meant it. ( or a double action de-cocked pistol)
Striker fired unlocked and loaded, be sure you have training.
30 feet, finger off the trigger, and then get on point. that's tough.
Definitely need training.
Maybe that's the whole point.
Just my minimal trained opinion.
And no-sense carrying with an empty chamber. IMO.
Post by: Bushido on November 18, 2017, 05:55:36 AM
I can think of some scenarios where carrying unchambered, as opposed to not carrying at all, would be beneficial. In a direct attack, not chambered would be very bad.
I would always carry chambered and concealed. I can't think of many "everyday civilian situations" where I would carry open as opposed to concealed.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 18, 2017, 11:55:45 AM
Shoot a person 21 feet away from you.
Be prepared to hire a good lawyer. ( and triple mortgage your house ) (active shooter situation excepted)
DAO doesn't go off unless you meant it. ( or a double action de-cocked pistol)
Striker fired unlocked and loaded, be sure you have training.
30 feet, finger off the trigger, and then get on point. that's tough.
Definitely need training.
Maybe that's the whole point.
Just my minimal trained opinion.
And no-sense carrying with an empty chamber. IMO.
The 21-foot rule doesn't say to shoot someone at 21 feet.
An attacker with a deadly weapon other than a firearm can close the 21 foot distance and potentially kill you in about the same amount of time that it tales most people to recognize the threat, draw, and be on target to fire a concealed handgun. Anywhere within the 21 foot radius already has an advantage. Some training groups are considering increasing that to a longer radius given real-world examples.
Therefore, you'd be shooting at whatever distance remains after you fire -- not 21 feet. If you can shoot him at the 21 foot distance, then you're already on target and not at that disadvantage if he runs at you.
Post by: aieahound on November 18, 2017, 12:14:02 PM
Thanks Mr. Obvious. I didn't know that.
You've watched the real videos.
Most attackers aren't crazed banshees that pull out their weapon 7-10 yards away and run at the victim at full sprint.
(In Chinatown maybe)
That's why my carry gun would be a belly gun snubby revolver, double action trigger, big enough caliber.
Because I don't train enough to carry a striker fired cocked and unlocked pistol. (Safety not considered)
But I still say whatever you carry should have one in the pipe.
Because in most scenarios, you won't have time under stress to rack the slide unless you train vigilantly.
Eugene probably could. He's amazing with a weapon. So I'm not saying it can't be done.
Moral of the story. Train.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 18, 2017, 12:56:25 PM
Really?
Thanks Mr. Obvious. I didn't know that.
You've watched the real videos.
Most attackers aren't crazed banshees that pull out their weapon 7-10 yards away and run at the victim at full sprint.
(In Chinatown maybe)
That's why my carry gun would be a belly gun snubby revolver, double action trigger, big enough caliber.
Because I don't train enough to carry a striker fired cocked and unlocked pistol. (Safety not considered)
But I still say whatever you carry should have one in the pipe.
Because in most scenarios, you won't have time under stress to rack the slide unless you train vigilantly.
Eugene probably could. He's amazing with a weapon. So I'm not saying it can't be done.
Moral of the story. Train.
Once again, you missed the point of the 21 foot rule.
If the attacker comes at you within that distance -- 7 yards, 4 yards, 2 yards -- you are at a disadvantage if your firearm is holstered. It's not saying "If the person pulls a knife and runs at you from 7 or 10 yards, you should shoot him".
If you have your "belly gun" holstered after the attack starts and it's inside your "most scenarios" distance, you need to know what to do.
I don't want to be even more obvious since you have no intention of having a mature discussion with me. But your OBVIOUS misunderstanding of the entire purpose of the "rule" means you should be less sarcastic and more serious about your replies. You might learn something new.
Post by: tim808 on November 18, 2017, 01:26:08 PM
Keeping one in the chamber does increase your odds in defending yourself over a wider range of situations but it also increases the chance of a nd.
You weigh the various risks and choose the option that works for you.
That guy that shot himself and his wife....I consider him lucky. He could have instead shot/killed a kid by mistake and have to live with it for the rest of his life.
Post by: drck1000 on November 18, 2017, 02:20:12 PM
Shoot a person 21 feet away from you.Not following your train of thought regarding the 21 feet and being prepeared to hire a good lawyer. I’d assume if I shot someone in self defense, I’d need a lawyer. No matter the distance.
Be prepared to hire a good lawyer. ( and triple mortgage your house ) (active shooter situation excepted)
DAO doesn't go off unless you meant it. ( or a double action de-cocked pistol)
Striker fired unlocked and loaded, be sure you have training.
30 feet, finger off the trigger, and then get on point. that's tough.
Definitely need training.
Maybe that's the whole point.
Just my minimal trained opinion.
And no-sense carrying with an empty chamber. IMO.
I haven’t had my striker fired guns go off “unless I meant it”. Yeah, I’ve handled some striker fired guns with pretty light triggers. That said, I generally don’t mess with the triggers on my guns.
Seems like your mind has run wild on a number of things that could go wrong. That said, many here seem to be envisioning a range of scenarios for deadly force encounters. I would argue that you have no control and the encounter will dictate that to you. Had a similar conversation with a cop friend of mine. He stated that if he felt the need to wear his rifle plates, that he had no intention of going hands on and this saw no need to train hand to hand while wearing plates. I pointed out how off balance and cumbersome he felt when he first wore plates. Even simple things like getting up from on his back was more difficult. Anyways, the point was stuff can happen and best to not be the first time he experienced it when he was needing to wrestle with someone that wanted to harm/kill him.
Post by: drck1000 on November 18, 2017, 02:26:01 PM
Yes the "21ft rule" would be very difficult if not in condition 1 and drawing from concealment. I've successfully done it with moving targets coming directly at you with 3 shots. It would be difficult to get off just one clean shot during the same time frame if having to add racking the slide into the equation. So difficult, I would not trust my life on it.I mostly refer to the 21 foot rule as something that people think they can or know what will happen until they see for themselves how quickly someone can close that distance. Add to that the fact that unless you hit the CNS or other switch, the person is likely to be on top of you, even if you hit the attacker. That people tend to think that “I have a gun, so I’m good (safe)”.
I can think of some scenarios where carrying unchambered, as opposed to not carrying at all, would be beneficial. In a direct attack, not chambered would be very bad.
I would always carry chambered and concealed. I can't think of many "everyday civilian situations" where I would carry open as opposed to concealed.
Open carry is a whole other conversation. I agree hay I can’t think of many everyday situations where I’d want to open carry.
Post by: aieahound on November 18, 2017, 06:15:34 PM
Post by: zippz on November 19, 2017, 04:07:30 AM
https://www.meetup.com/HawaiiGGG/events/245073270/
Post by: Bushido on November 19, 2017, 10:20:27 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: 2ahavvaii on November 19, 2017, 11:06:28 AM
Post by: Bushido on November 19, 2017, 11:15:11 AM
Yes 21' may seem far to many. I believe most will change their mind once attempting this drill. 1 1/2 seconds is not a lot.
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Post by: zippz on November 19, 2017, 04:18:50 PM
Odds are you'll be 5ft to 10ft away in a 1 on 1 encounter.
Post by: Bushido on November 19, 2017, 07:27:29 PM
Odds are you'll be 5ft to 10ft away in a 1 on 1 encounter.
I have a stat that shows distance of Police shooting from 1981-1990. 392 shootings were from 0-5', 135 from 6-10', 90 from 11-20 and so on. Keep in mind this is Police and not CCW Civilians but still comparable. I got this info from a booklet I got from a defensive class I took so I don't know the reference. We focused on 3-10' during the course.
Post by: Influence on November 20, 2017, 07:39:12 AM
Post by: Influence on November 20, 2017, 08:26:00 AM
For those afraid of carrying a striker fired gun with one in the chamber, are you afraid of something jarring the gun hard enough that the firing pin will hit the primer? Or the trigger somehow being activated in the holster? Just trying to understand here.
I have heard of incidents of pocket carry without a holster or one of those trigger guard cover things and the gun accidentally going off. Haven’t heard of any issues with quality holsters that cover/protects the trigger and trigger guard.
If one prefers to carry with an empty chamber, for whatever reason, to each their own. Be it comfort level, scenarios they envision when they would need the gun, etc. I would just encourage people put thought into it and at least try experiencing what it takes to draw, rack slide then shoot. I’m not big on the 21 foot rule other than that it shocked me how quickly someone can close that distance the first time I experienced that demonstration.
My biggest fear is that I have a 5 and 3 year old that still love crawling all over me. I have a concealed knife in a kydex sheath and there was one incident where my son dislodged it slightly when crawling on me. It didnt come out much but enough to give me a small slice. My fear is that they dislodge the gun somehow and their fingers get in the trigger or something gets lodged in the trigger guard and it goes off when I push it back in.
Prior thinking was that a safety would take that away as would a da/sa since I would thumb the hammer when holstering
Now, when I go to the mainland, it is more often than not that I’m traveling without my kids, so that worry should be nullified. Also, by the time we do start taking them more years in the future, chances are they will not be jumping all over me.
Post by: 2ahavvaii on November 20, 2017, 08:48:51 AM
My biggest fear is that I have a 5 and 3 year old that still love crawling all over me. I have a concealed knife in a kydex sheath and there was one incident where my son dislodged it slightly when crawling on me. It didnt come out much but enough to give me a small slice. My fear is that they dislodge the gun somehow and their fingers get in the trigger or something gets lodged in the trigger guard and it goes off when I push it back in.
Prior thinking was that a safety would take that away as would a da/sa since I would thumb the hammer when holstering
Now, when I go to the mainland, it is more often than not that I’m traveling without my kids, so that worry should be nullified. Also, by the time we do start taking them more years in the future, chances are they will not be jumping all over me.
If I was in that situation, I'd probably opt for (what someone mentioned above), a 7 shot revolver with 1 cylinder empty (the one rotated into alignment when trigger is pulled). In the event you need to, pull the trigger 2x to get the first round off. Greatly reduces the chances of an accident with an accidental trigger pull.
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 20, 2017, 08:51:27 AM
Thank you all for your input. It really helps with my thought process moving forward :shaka:
You carry what you feel comfortable with. Safety, SA/DA, etc...What ever gives you piece of mind. Because like above posters stated, each has its pros and cons.
For me, I only have striker pistols so that's what I carry (VP9 & M&P 9C). I am looking into a 1911, but would carry it due to the size.
Post by: Drakiir84 on November 20, 2017, 08:58:02 AM
My biggest fear is that I have a 5 and 3 year old that still love crawling all over me. I have a concealed knife in a kydex sheath and there was one incident where my son dislodged it slightly when crawling on me. It didnt come out much but enough to give me a small slice. My fear is that they dislodge the gun somehow and their fingers get in the trigger or something gets lodged in the trigger guard and it goes off when I push it back in.
Prior thinking was that a safety would take that away as would a da/sa since I would thumb the hammer when holstering
Now, when I go to the mainland, it is more often than not that I’m traveling without my kids, so that worry should be nullified. Also, by the time we do start taking them more years in the future, chances are they will not be jumping all over me.
I'm interested to know what kind of holster you're using that you'd be worried about it becoming dislodged while playing with your kids. My knife that I carry in a kydex sheath and like you it has been dislodged every once in a while, so I check it every time I stand up.
I can't say that any gun I've carried has ever snapped out of any of the passive retention holsters I've carried. With IWB there should be no way your gun can come loose with the tension provided by 1) The passive retention of the holster and 2) the additional tension of your belt pushing your gun/holster into your body. With OWB holsters you can tighten the retention and through running drills/classes, bumping into shit, hitting the ground so on and so forth my guns have never come loose.
Personally I carry my G19 with a round chambered every day at work. If you're worried about ND's I'd check out something with a hammer and de-cocker so you can still have that round chambered but have that heavy first trigger pull.
But again, to each their own. Carry how you're comfortable.
Post by: Drakiir84 on November 20, 2017, 09:06:18 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDOOKWKM3wM for fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fjMpn7JCJ0 for educational purposes.
Post by: shdws on November 20, 2017, 09:16:02 AM
Post by: Drakiir84 on November 20, 2017, 09:24:06 AM
I dont know about this one in the chamber thing, but I have developed an irrational fear of going to the bathroom while carrying.
I don't go to the bathroom without carrying, it's when we're at our most vulnerable. If I have to go to the bathroom while in public I make sure to have my wallet sized portrait of General Mattis to protect me.
Post by: 2ahavvaii on November 20, 2017, 09:24:13 AM
I dont know about this one in the chamber thing, but I have developed an irrational fear of going to the bathroom while carrying.
sounds like you need to find something that is ak reliable, if it falls in the toilet and covered in water and whatever else, you can pull it out, reholster it, and it'll still shoot well a year later. :shake:
Post by: Influence on November 20, 2017, 10:34:48 AM
I'm interested to know what kind of holster you're using that you'd be worried about it becoming dislodged while playing with your kids. My knife that I carry in a kydex sheath and like you it has been dislodged every once in a while, so I check it every time I stand up.
I can't say that any gun I've carried has ever snapped out of any of the passive retention holsters I've carried. With IWB there should be no way your gun can come loose with the tension provided by 1) The passive retention of the holster and 2) the additional tension of your belt pushing your gun/holster into your body. With OWB holsters you can tighten the retention and through running drills/classes, bumping into shit, hitting the ground so on and so forth my guns have never come loose.
Personally I carry my G19 with a round chambered every day at work. If you're worried about ND's I'd check out something with a hammer and de-cocker so you can still have that round chambered but have that heavy first trigger pull.
But again, to each their own. Carry how you're comfortable.
I actually don't have an IWB holster yet as I'm still deciding on the gun. Don't have any experience carrying IWB but was looking at Tier 1, T-Rex ANR Designs etc. adjustable retention kydex holsters. My knife incident was enough to have me concerned about the gun potentially coming loose if my son accidentally knees it while climbing on me, but again, no experience carrying concealed.
Currently leaning heavily toward a Glock 19 or M&P 2.0 Compact w/o thumb safety. P-01 is on the list as well but I know I'd dump way too much money into the thing with CGW parts etc. I have smaller hands so I'd at minimum purchase the reduced reach trigger kit. The Glock and M&P would stay fairly stock outside of sights.
Post by: drck1000 on November 20, 2017, 10:38:10 AM
My biggest fear is that I have a 5 and 3 year old that still love crawling all over me. I have a concealed knife in a kydex sheath and there was one incident where my son dislodged it slightly when crawling on me. It didnt come out much but enough to give me a small slice. My fear is that they dislodge the gun somehow and their fingers get in the trigger or something gets lodged in the trigger guard and it goes off when I push it back in.Gotcha. Never thought about that. I don't have kids, but when I'm around my friend's kids, they are all over me as well (at times). I have never carried while I have been around the ones that I'm closest too and are "all over me" more often, I do have to me mindful about them getting into my stuff. Like my backpack that has say a lighter for cigars. Kids are so smart, it's scary at times.
Prior thinking was that a safety would take that away as would a da/sa since I would thumb the hammer when holstering
Now, when I go to the mainland, it is more often than not that I’m traveling without my kids, so that worry should be nullified. Also, by the time we do start taking them more years in the future, chances are they will not be jumping all over me.
While I can see how a heavier DA (semi-auto or revolver) trigger pull could help mitigate this concern, but I also wouldn't put it past kids to figure out a way. I would think that a quality concealed carry holster would mitigate. My concealed carry holsters have a good amount of retention that I don't see someone pulling the gun out of the holster without my allowing it to happen.
Post by: drck1000 on November 20, 2017, 10:39:21 AM
I'm interested to know what kind of holster you're using that you'd be worried about it becoming dislodged while playing with your kids. My knife that I carry in a kydex sheath and like you it has been dislodged every once in a while, so I check it every time I stand up.
I can't say that any gun I've carried has ever snapped out of any of the passive retention holsters I've carried. With IWB there should be no way your gun can come loose with the tension provided by 1) The passive retention of the holster and 2) the additional tension of your belt pushing your gun/holster into your body. With OWB holsters you can tighten the retention and through running drills/classes, bumping into shit, hitting the ground so on and so forth my guns have never come loose.
Personally I carry my G19 with a round chambered every day at work. If you're worried about ND's I'd check out something with a hammer and de-cocker so you can still have that round chambered but have that heavy first trigger pull.
But again, to each their own. Carry how you're comfortable.
Well, you have more retention "ability" in that case. . . ;D
Post by: drck1000 on November 20, 2017, 10:44:19 AM
I actually don't have an IWB holster yet as I'm still deciding on the gun. Don't have any experience carrying IWB but was looking at Tier 1, T-Rex ANR Designs etc. adjustable retention kydex holsters. My knife incident was enough to have me concerned about the gun potentially coming loose if my son accidentally knees it while climbing on me, but again, no experience carrying concealed.I just received my TRex Ragnarok (OWB holster) and my first impressions are very good. I'll give it some time to use it and see, but it's a good quality holster. If I were in the need for a new IWB holster, I'd consider trying one of theirs.
Currently leaning heavily toward a Glock 19 or M&P 2.0 Compact w/o thumb safety. P-01 is on the list as well but I know I'd dump way too much money into the thing with CGW parts etc. I have smaller hands so I'd at minimum purchase the reduced reach trigger kit. The Glock and M&P would stay fairly stock outside of sights.
For now, I have a Raven OWB holster and one of the first offerings of the INCOG. Both are excellent holsters. The RCS can be adjusted for the passive retention to take a good amount of effort to draw.
Post by: Drakiir84 on November 20, 2017, 10:50:12 AM
I actually don't have an IWB holster yet as I'm still deciding on the gun. Don't have any experience carrying IWB but was looking at Tier 1, T-Rex ANR Designs etc. adjustable retention kydex holsters. My knife incident was enough to have me concerned about the gun potentially coming loose if my son accidentally knees it while climbing on me, but again, no experience carrying concealed.
Currently leaning heavily toward a Glock 19 or M&P 2.0 Compact w/o thumb safety. P-01 is on the list as well but I know I'd dump way too much money into the thing with CGW parts etc. I have smaller hands so I'd at minimum purchase the reduced reach trigger kit. The Glock and M&P would stay fairly stock outside of sights.
I've carried a G-Code Incog Shadow for about 2.5 years, first for the 17 and then the 19 with a Surefire XC-1. I'll be picking up a T-Rex Arms Sidecar soon for appendix carry, Lucas makes quality shit. Like Drck said, keeping the guns as close to stock as possible is preferred.
Well, you have more retention "ability" in that case. . . ;D
You know das right lololol.
Post by: Influence on November 20, 2017, 11:03:16 AM
Kids are so smart, it's scary at times.
Very true. My son randomly figured out my 4 digit, HD pistol safe combo when he was barely over a year old (no round in the chamber as I was gone from home but magazine inserted). Wife said he was playing with the buttons and it popped open. Dumb luck right? What's worse is that he memorized the code and went on to open it again on a different day. Ended up having to change the code.
Post by: Influence on November 20, 2017, 11:04:23 AM
I just received my TRex Ragnarok (OWB holster) and my first impressions are very good. I'll give it some time to use it and see, but it's a good quality holster. If I were in the need for a new IWB holster, I'd consider trying one of theirs.
For now, I have a Raven OWB holster and one of the first offerings of the INCOG. Both are excellent holsters. The RCS can be adjusted for the passive retention to take a good amount of effort to draw.
Thanks for the input. Love watching Lucas' videos and their holsters seem to be high quality.
Post by: Influence on November 20, 2017, 11:05:11 AM
I've carried a G-Code Incog Shadow for about 2.5 years, first for the 17 and then the 19 with a Surefire XC-1. I'll be picking up a T-Rex Arms Sidecar soon for appendix carry, Lucas makes quality shit. Like Drck said, keeping the guns as close to stock as possible is preferred.
Thanks Drakiirr. :shaka:
Post by: Influence on November 20, 2017, 11:11:46 AM
Post by: 2ahavvaii on November 20, 2017, 11:18:20 AM
-----------------
An off-duty military police officer shot dead two armed robbers while holding his child in one arm when the pair tried to hold up a pharmacy, CCTV footage shows. Sergeant Rafael Souza had walked into the business 40km outside the city of São Paulo, Brazil, with his wife and child to buy medicine when the two men burst in wearing hoods and wielding guns. One of the men - Jefferson Alves, 24 - then reportedly pointed his weapon at Mr Souza, who drew his pistol and is seen on camera shooting the attacker at close range.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/off-duty-police-officer-shoots-150222914.html
Post by: Drakiir84 on November 20, 2017, 11:23:44 AM
Funny I go to IG and see this. Was going to stick with a stock trigger in a striker fired carry gun anyway but this furthers that decision.
Fuck ZEV triggers, I've seen and heard about countless problems with that shit. My carry Glocks have the Haley Strategic Skimmer triggers in them, all polished stock parts, no replacements. Cleaner break and reset with the same reliability.
Post by: drck1000 on November 20, 2017, 12:53:34 PM
I've shot guns with a ZEV trigger (whole gun was a ZEV custom deal). I don't recall anything that made me want to get one. I've tried my 34 with ZEV and Ghost disconnectors. Didn't care for the Ghost. The ZEV is ok, but I wish it had a more solid wall. The 34 is pretty much exclusively for USPSA though, so I was more willing to test out stuff.
A lot of the custom triggers on the market are polishing, filing, etc of stock Glock parts. I haven't tried monkeying with my triggers much. I will say that the Salient guns that I've shot have really nice triggers, but those are $3000+ guns!
I mean I appreciate what can be done with custom triggers. The trigger on my CZ SP-01 Shadow is significantly nicer than the stock SP-01, but that's also because of things like no firing block safety. I've shot some really nice 1911s with awesome triggers. Those would be more for competition or just range fun, at least for me.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 20, 2017, 01:39:33 PM
(1) The Trigger Safety Retaining Pin loosened about 1/8 inch.
(2) The loose pin allowed the trigger safety lever to fall out of the trigger.
With no trigger safety to prevent the trigger from being pulled without a finger on it:
(3) the really tight tolerances of the Kydex holster allowed the loose pin sticking out the left side of the trigger to catch the inside of the holster, pulling the trigger when reholstering.
"Final Destination" type of problem!
Post by: drck1000 on November 20, 2017, 02:38:57 PM
After reading the comments on the Instagram post, it sounds like a multi-faceted combination of issues that lead to the "auto-activated" trigger.So something was pushing the trigger to the rear from the sides? I'd have to check all my passive retention holsters, but I don't think any have material that comes close to any part of the trigger. Even pins or other hardware that would be near the trigger. I'm gonna tighten down the hardware on them while I'm at it. . . :shake:
(1) The Trigger Safety Retaining Pin loosened about 1/8 inch.
(2) The loose pin allowed the trigger safety lever to fall out of the trigger.
With no trigger safety to prevent the trigger from being pulled without a finger on it:
(3) the really tight tolerances of the Kydex holster allowed the loose pin sticking out the left side of the trigger to catch the inside of the holster, pulling the trigger when reholstering.
"Final Destination" type of problem!
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 20, 2017, 03:57:58 PM
So something was pushing the trigger to the rear from the sides? I'd have to check all my passive retention holsters, but I don't think any have material that comes close to any part of the trigger. Even pins or other hardware that would be near the trigger. I'm gonna tighten down the hardware on them while I'm at it. . . :shake:
If you check the left side of an OEM Glock trigger, you see a pin that acts as the pivot for the safety release. If that pin loosens enough, the safety toggle can fall out. What was catching on the holster was that safety pin. It was still in the trigger, but less than 1/2 way.
You can't see the problem in the video, because the hole for the pin only goes through the left side of the trigger. But, you can see the safety toggle is missing from the trigger.
I wish the person posting the video had taken a follow-up video, or taken time to record the exact cause. As it is, you have to read all the comments to figure out what happened.
He says this can happen in any Glock trigger, but I'm not so sure. The Zed trigger is aluminum. That gives a metal on metal contact surface with less friction.
The OEM trigger is a metal pin in a polymer tigger. Unless the pin hole is enlarged, it can maintain pressure and friction around the pin. Looking at my G17 Gen 4, that pin is seated pretty snuggly in the trigger.
If you have any holsters with retention caused by pressure on the trigger guard, like almost all thin IWB Kydex holsters, I guarantee the holster brushes up closely to the trigger area.
(https://i.imgur.com/22titER.jpg?1)
Post by: drck1000 on November 20, 2017, 05:19:52 PM
If you check the left side of an OEM Glock trigger, you see a pin that acts as the pivot for the safety release. If that pin loosens enough, the safety toggle can fall out. What was catching on the holster was that safety pin. It was still in the trigger, but less than 1/2 way.Yeah. I’m aware of the trigger pins. I just had a hard time envisioning how a loose pin would be the cause. Didn’t read the comments. I envisioned that if a loose pin resulted in the trigger arm to sort of tilt/lean to one side and get brushed by the body of the holster. Guess that’s basically what happened, except with the safety lever/arm thingy. With all parts of the trigger centered, I didn’t think any part of the holster would get close. And I believe all of my holsters with passive retention are via the trigger guard. Again, I’d have to check, but I don’t think the body of the holster would get close to the trigger (if centered). My RCS holster looks pretty close, if not same, to the pic you posted.
You can't see the problem in the video, because the hole for the pin only goes through the left side of the trigger. But, you can see the safety toggle is missing from the trigger.
I wish the person posting the video had taken a follow-up video, or taken time to record the exact cause. As it is, you have to read all the comments to figure out what happened.
He says this can happen in any Glock trigger, but I'm not so sure. The Zed trigger is aluminum. That gives a metal on metal contact surface with less friction.
The OEM trigger is a metal pin in a polymer tigger. Unless the pin hole is enlarged, it can maintain pressure and friction around the pin. Looking at my G17 Gen 4, that pin is seated pretty snuggly in the trigger.
If you have any holsters with retention caused by pressure on the trigger guard, like almost all thin IWB Kydex holsters, I guarantee the holster brushes up closely to the trigger area.
(https://i.imgur.com/22titER.jpg?1)
I don’t really mess with the triggers on my Glocks. I thought the OEM pins have these grooves in them that are supposed to prevent them from walking. That they sort of click when you put them back in. The only pin that I mess with is the one in the back to change the disconnect.
I recall that they did test for debris in the holster in the video. I’ve heard of debris or even the cord for the jacket getting caught and pulling the trigger.
Post by: Bushido on November 20, 2017, 07:32:15 PM
For me, I only have striker pistols so that's what I carry (VP9 & M&P 9C). I am looking into a 1911, but would carry it due to the size.
Be forewarned, them 1911s can be addicting. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Want to try one this Sat? Good choice on the 9C. Oh and 1911 single stacks are very thin so they are pretty comfortable. Kind of heavy though.
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 21, 2017, 08:44:23 AM
Be forewarned, them 1911s can be addicting. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Want to try one this Sat? Good choice on the 9C. Oh and 1911 single stacks are very thin so they are pretty comfortable. Kind of heavy though.
hmmmmmm...if you don't bring it, I won't be tempted to buy one if I like it. ;D