2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: DesertRangerTycho on December 04, 2017, 05:57:10 PM
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With H38 likely to pass this week what do you all think about it? Several major guntubers have raised the alarm it will be combined with an onerous bill that will act as a covert gun grab by disqualifying people from ownership. The NRA is still supporting this legislation while GOA is taken an opposed stance, even if it means loosing national reciprocity.
I am curious what you all think.
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I think that addition of the other bill as a rider to H38 will cause the entire thing to fail. Is that the purpose of doing so, so that all sides, which probably don't want it anyway, can give an appearance of trying? :tinfoil:
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After looking at the parts of the bill the Dems want to merge, it seems semi-reasonable to allow that as long as we all get national reciprocity. The current state-by-state system is ridiculously complicated and risky for anyone who travels with firearms. One scenario in particular involves people traveling through New York. If you get delayed and spend the night there unexpectedly while transporting a firearm, they will likely arrest you the next day when you check in at the airport for having an unregistered firearm. Those kinds of laws have no rational purpose other than to make felons of ordinary citizens.
The NICS system has shown itself to be broken in 2 mass shooting incidents at least. Anything that improves existing measures to keep guns out of the wrong hands is fine with me as long as it plugs the holes -- not create more hoops to jump through.
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After looking at the parts of the bill the Dems want to merge, it seems semi-reasonable to allow that as long as we all get national reciprocity. The current state-by-state system is ridiculously complicated and risky for anyone who travels with firearms. One scenario in particular involves people traveling through New York. If you get delayed and spend the night there unexpectedly while transporting a firearm, they will likely arrest you the next day when you check in at the airport for having an unregistered firearm. Those kinds of laws have no rational purpose other than to make felons of ordinary citizens.
The NICS system has shown itself to be broken in 2 mass shooting incidents at least. Anything that improves existing measures to keep guns out of the wrong hands is fine with me as long as it plugs the holes -- not create more hoops to jump through.
I agree, but many in the free states are already making noise and fuss over this. Claims of gov overreach and abuse, which are valid concerns, will make this a hard sell.
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I agree, but many in the free states are already making noise and fuss over this. Claims of gov overreach and abuse, which are valid concerns, will make this a hard sell.
I can see how those in free states hate the provisions of any bill supported by the Dems. However, I know the National Concealed Carry Reciprocity will have such a chaos inducing effect on all gun control paradises it will be worth it.
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CCW for many of my mainland friends and family has become the equivalent of carrying a fire extinguisher. I think reciprocity would certainly help proliferate, de stigmatize, and de mystify firearms.
I imagine it would be similar to the assault weapons ban expiring and the soaring popularity of modern sporting rifles. I personally had no interest in picking up a AR until I was told I couldn’t. Likewise I had no interest in CCW until I realized it was forbidden fruit here in HI. I imagine plenty of Joe and Jane Public feel the same as I do.
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The rider wont' affect Hawaii because we already have
1) registration
2) mental health check
3) RAPBACK
But I'm hoping states that are pro 2a take one for the team that would allow anti 2a states the right to carry.
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I wonder how this will affect a future Supreme Court case on CCW. This law would spread CCW to every state so any pending court cases would be closed. I'd rather have a SCOTUS ruling over this law as it would further reduce current and future CCW restrictions. I still support this bill though. I'll take what I can get.
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Passed the House. What about the senate though? How likely is it to pass the Senate?
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Senate will ensure that this dies a quick death - there aren't enough Democratic votes to make it to the 60 required to pass the bill. And lets not forget - this bill states that reciprocity only counts if a state HAS concealed carry. If by some magic the legislation makes it to Trump's desk and he signs it, I would fully expect Hawaii and other like-minded states to try and dump their CCW laws completely. They'd rather have no carry then the chance for civilians to carry.
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Senate will ensure that this dies a quick death - there aren't enough Democratic votes to make it to the 60 required to pass the bill. And lets not forget - this bill states that reciprocity only counts if a state HAS concealed carry. If by some magic the legislation makes it to Trump's desk and he signs it, I would fully expect Hawaii and other like-minded states to try and dump their CCW laws completely. They'd rather have no carry then the chance for civilians to carry.
:'( :(
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Senate will ensure that this dies a quick death - there aren't enough Democratic votes to make it to the 60 required to pass the bill. And lets not forget - this bill states that reciprocity only counts if a state HAS concealed carry. If by some magic the legislation makes it to Trump's desk and he signs it, I would fully expect Hawaii and other like-minded states to try and dump their CCW laws completely. They'd rather have no carry then the chance for civilians to carry.
this is why I am not celebrating HR 38 passing the house
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Senate will ensure that this dies a quick death - there aren't enough Democratic votes to make it to the 60 required to pass the bill. And lets not forget - this bill states that reciprocity only counts if a state HAS concealed carry. If by some magic the legislation makes it to Trump's desk and he signs it, I would fully expect Hawaii and other like-minded states to try and dump their CCW laws completely. They'd rather have no carry then the chance for civilians to carry.
Thank goodness the Democrats allowed the Nuclear Option... I fully support the Republicans to beat the Dems silly with their own tools... And you can bet your ass the Republicans will want to support this "common sense gun legislation".
Everyone said that Heller had no chance until he won....
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Thank goodness the Democrats allowed the Nuclear Option... I fully support the Republicans to beat the Dems silly with their own tools... And you can bet your ass the Republicans will want to support this "common sense gun legislation".
Everyone said that Heller had no chance until he won....
Plus Conyers “retirement” 😂 and Frankin’s resignation won’t help the dems
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Plus Conyers “retirement” 😂 and Frankin’s resignation won’t help the dems
Exactly... The Dems are falling apart because they continually fail to have integrity to remove the debris from their ranks. Now they are feeling the reality of loosing... I am delighted.
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https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/446/text
I like the House version much better.... Someone fluent in legalese, please explain if this version will be good of citizens in Hawaii with out of state permits?
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https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/446/text
I like the House version much better.... Someone fluent in legalese, please explain if this version will be good of citizens in Hawaii with out of state permits?
Here is the key phrasing.... "or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm "
In other words, I have a CCP from Utah. Per this line I will be able to carry here.
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https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/446/text
I like the House version much better.... Someone fluent in legalese, please explain if this version will be good of citizens in Hawaii with out of state permits?
I mentioned it in the other thread. And I dont think hawaii can just say we are no longer may issue states. Or they can, but will end up getting overruled in court. There is a reason why all 50 states changed to become at the very least, a "may issue" state. There were court rulings that compelled everyone to change.
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https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/115th-congress/house-report/433
Current reciprocity wording as being voted on by the House today. I believe we're still good in that even if HPD refuses to issue permits, we can still get out of state. Because hawaii and the 7 other commie states are "may issue" states, #1 and #2 below don't come into play.
``Sec. 926D. Reciprocity for the carrying of certain concealed firearms
``(a) Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or
political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (b))
and subject only to the requirements of this section, a person who is
not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping,
or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document
containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid
license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and
which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to
carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may
possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or
destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate
or foreign commerce, in any State that--
``(1) has a statute under which residents of the State may
apply for a license or permit to carry a concealed firearm; or
``(2) does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms by
residents of the State for lawful purposes.
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Even if this passes, and then the Republicans lose badly in tbe mid terms next year, the Dems can try to repeal tbe CCW law. If Trump vetoes the repeal then it will probably contiue till we get a Dem POTUS and Congress. In the mean time Hawaii will pass anti 2A laws and tie that up in court for years. By then the Dems will be back in power and we will never have the right to carry here. Don't mean to be pessimistic, but the Hawaii Dems made me this way.
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Even if this passes, and then the Republicans lose badly in tbe mid terms next year, the Dems can try to repeal tbe CCW law. If Trump vetoes the repeal then it will probably contiue till we get a Dem POTUS and Congress. In the mean time Hawaii will pass anti 2A laws and tie that up in court for years. By then the Dems will be back in power and we will never have the right to carry here. Don't mean to be pessimistic, but the Hawaii Dems made me this way.
Maybe true. But once you open a dam's spillway, it's hard to close it once the flood of water comes through. Once more people across the nation see that CCW isn't so bad, the argument against it is tougher. Note that CCW has been expanding steadily over the last few decades with less "gun free zones" among many states because people are realizing the benefit of it. In 1986, there were only 9 states that were unrestricted or "shall issue". In 2017, there is 42 states
Link below for your viewing pleasure.
http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php
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Maybe true. But once you open a dam's spillway, it's hard to close it once the flood of water comes through. Once more people across the nation see that CCW isn't so bad, the argument against it is tougher. Note that CCW has been expanding steadily over the last few decades with less "gun free zones" among many states because people are realizing the benefit of it. In 1986, there were only 9 states that were unrestricted or "shall issue". In 2017, there is 42 states
Link below for your viewing pleasure.
http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php
Exactly. The Dems heads will be exploding all over the country from the rapid spread of freedom.
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Here is the key phrasing.... "or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm "
In other words, I have a CCP from Utah. Per this line I will be able to carry here.
HPD will then "interpret" the law to say that if you are a Hawaii resident, then you are not "allowed" to CCW and only non-residents can carry.
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Isn't Hawaii a "May Issue CCW" state? It doesn't necessarily prohibit CCW although in practice, it does. Am I mistaken?
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HPD will then "interpret" the law to say that if you are a Hawaii resident, then you are not "allowed" to CCW and only non-residents can carry.
That is why I like the House version better, as it specifically provides protection from illegal state "interpretation"
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Isn't Hawaii a "May Issue CCW" state? It doesn't necessarily prohibit CCW although in practice, it does. Am I mistaken?
Yes it is, and people do have CCW lic here, just not the citizens. That is why I think the state just banning all CCW lic will not be feasible.
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Many Hawaii LEOSA already carry in Hawaii. Such as Prison guards, retired officers and other Federal retiree. But they are only on a one year license issued by the State with lots of hope to jump through.
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If you already possess an out of state CCW and reciprocity does go thru, would that not be a pre-existing" condition and not subject to being retroactive to anything Hawaii (Chin) may do to alter the law ?
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ANYBODY KNOW ? ???
If you already possess an out of state CCW and reciprocity does go thru, would that not be a pre-existing" condition and not subject to being retroactive to anything Hawaii (Chin) may do to alter the law ?
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ANYBODY KNOW ? ???
I'm not a lawyer nor did I got to a Holiday Inn Express last night, but if Hawaii bans concealed carry to get around HR38, I don't see you have ANY success with that. Here's the key part that makes HR38 worthless if you live in a state that would conceivably ban CCW outright:
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“(a) Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (b)) and subject only to the requirements of this section, a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State that—
“(1) has a statute under which residents of the State may apply for a license or permit to carry a concealed firearm; or
“(2) does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms by residents of the State for lawful purposes.
“(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that—
“(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
“(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.
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In other words - national reciprocity is only viable because NOW all 50 states have some form of CCW on the books. Once a state removes CCW then it no longer applies within that state. Nothing in section B helps us out either. In the law it clearly states that it will take effect 90 days after being signed into law - plenty of time for AG Chin to tell the Legislature that blood will soon run in the streets and that no one outside of on-duty LEO should be allowed to conceal carry. I have no belief that LEO crying out against that would have any impact - this state still makes LEOSA a giant pain in the ass for cops to comply with. What makes anyone think that CCW reciprocity would be the one thing this state rolls over and accepts? Not gonna happen.
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This list from Every Town reads like a Christmas wish list for gun owners!! :thumbsup: :rofl: :thumbsup: :rofl:
https://everytownresearch.org/concealed-carry-reciprocity-h-r-38-overriding-state-public-safety-laws/
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There is already precedence set that the second amendment means American citizens have the RIGHT to have firearms (keep AND bear) for personal self defense.
That is why all States have provision for CCW or Open Carry.
They cannot outright BAN carry. Has to be one or the other, or both in free states.
That is how I understand it anyway..
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There is already precedence set that the second amendment means American citizens have the RIGHT to have firearms (keep AND bear) for personal self defense.
That is why all States have provision for CCW or Open Carry.
They cannot outright BAN carry. Has to be one or the other, or both in free states.
That is how I understand it anyway..
They can ban concealed carry and only allow open carry within Hawaiii. Thus , nullify all concealed carry permits .
Since both requires a permit in Hawaii.
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If you already possess an out of state CCW and reciprocity does go thru, would that not be a pre-existing" condition and not subject to being retroactive to anything Hawaii (Chin) may do to alter the law ?
Retroactive would have no effect, unless the new Hawaii law specifically made an exception for retroactive CCW.
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There is already precedence set that the second amendment means American citizens have the RIGHT to have firearms (keep AND bear) for personal self defense.
That is why all States have provision for CCW or Open Carry.
They cannot outright BAN carry. Has to be one or the other, or both in free states.
That is how I understand it anyway..
That's what I understand as well. That is the reason why all 50 states are may issue at the least now. And the reason why the bill is worded as it is. They cannot change to no issue without inviting legal challenge that they would lose.
All the nazi states changed to may issue as of around 2013 because they had to.
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That's what I understand as well. That is the reason why all 50 states are may issue at the least now. And the reason why the bill is worded as it is. They cannot change to no issue without inviting legal challenge that they would lose.
All the nazi states changed to may issue as of around 2013 because they had to.
I am sure the gestapo in these states feel like this about the coming of concealed carry... https://youtu.be/kyevhryWKHk
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This list from Every Town reads like a Christmas wish list for gun owners!! :thumbsup: :rofl: :thumbsup: :rofl:
https://everytownresearch.org/concealed-carry-reciprocity-h-r-38-overriding-state-public-safety-laws/
Gotta love Shannon Watts... she has no problem screaming to ban guns to save the children but had no problem sentencing sick children to death when she worked for GE Healthcare...
https://freedomoutpost.com/shannon-watts-isnt-who-she-seems/
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CBS "News" "60 Minutes" covers the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act on it's February 11, 2018 show:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-showdown/
Notice which side gets interrupted by Kroft, and which side doesn't get interrupted by Kroft... and it's not related to who is most full of shit... even including "authorities" who claim that ordinary citizens carrying firearms in public is "insane" and that until the Supreme Court rules that you have a right to carry in public, you have no right to carry in public (just like you had no right to "carry in the home" until Heller in 2008)... completely ignoring the SCOTUS ruling that says neither the court nor the constitution creates any rights, they are pre-existing. :crazy:
Edit: 8:01 AM Armed American Radio just posted the show from Sunday, Feb 11. The first two segments of hour one are with Tim Schmidt (founder of CCW insurance provider US Concealed Carry Association) talking about his experience being interviewed for the "60 Minutes" piece above.
http://armedamericanradio.org/show-archives/2018-02-11/
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Why can't this one or other states be forced to honor the CCW permits of other states the same way ALL states have been forced to issue and honor other states marriage licenses (Obergefell v. Hodges 2015). If you read the SCOTUS majority decision, changing a few words to reference 2A, it can be the exact same ruling.
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So the Republicans have been in control of both chambers of the Congress and the executive branch for 23 months now... when are they getting the national concealed carry reciprocity act passed? Just askin'...
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The bill dies when Congress adjournes in a few days. It's all up to Young and Beck now.
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So the Republicans have been in control of both chambers of the Congress and the executive branch for 23 months now... when are they getting the national concealed carry reciprocity act passed? Just askin'...
The bill dies when Congress adjournes in a few days. It's all up to Young and Beck now.
I guess I need to end (most of) my posts with: /sarc.
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Worthless Republicans are worthless. It's all a waste of fucking time.
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Never fear! Now that the Democrats control the House... it's being re-introduced (today)! I guess the Republicans needed a Democrat majority in the House in order to make some progress in the Senate. Or... maybe now they'll do some serious grandstanding about how necessary it is and how they're so for it... now that it'll never pass again in the House. :rofl: SMH >:(
Rep. Hudson Reintroduces National Reciprocity on Day One of New Congress
https://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/2019/01/03/rep-hudson-reintroduces-national-reciprocity-day-one-new-congress/
Rep. Richard Hudson (R-NC) reintroduced national reciprocity for concealed carry on the first day of the 116th Congress.
Hudson introduced carry reciprocity legislation in 2014 but got tremendous momentum with the introduction of the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act on January 3, 2017. The legislation passed the House on December 6, 2017, and was never taken up by the Republican-controlled Senate.
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Never fear! Now that the Democrats control the House... it's being re-introduced (today)! I guess the Republicans needed a Democrat majority in the House in order to make some progress in the Senate. Or... maybe now they'll do some serious grandstanding about how necessary it is and how they're so for it... now that it'll never pass again in the House. :rofl: SMH >:(
Rep. Hudson Reintroduces National Reciprocity on Day One of New Congress
https://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/2019/01/03/rep-hudson-reintroduces-national-reciprocity-day-one-new-congress/
Rep. Richard Hudson (R-NC) reintroduced national reciprocity for concealed carry on the first day of the 116th Congress.
Hudson introduced carry reciprocity legislation in 2014 but got tremendous momentum with the introduction of the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act on January 3, 2017. The legislation passed the House on December 6, 2017, and was never taken up by the Republican-controlled Senate.
Didn't they control both the house and senate, so the time to pass it is now gone. Or because it already passed the majority vote, it now moves to the senate which we still control.
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Why can't this one or other states be forced to honor the CCW permits of other states the same way ALL states have been forced to issue and honor other states marriage licenses (Obergefell v. Hodges 2015). If you read the SCOTUS majority decision, changing a few words to reference 2A, it can be the exact same ruling.
Because it says you have to right in the constitution and everyone just ignores the constitution.
"The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States."
They even said it again in the 14th
"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
If it is legal in one state you cant be discriminated against in another. I'm not a lawyer but it sounds very similar to "shall not be infringed"
But even Scalia said the clause had been interpreted out of existence.
https://reason.com/archives/2010/03/04/guns-for-all-privileges-and-im
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Because GUNS, not people, kill people, the laws can be discriminated against.
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Didn't they control both the house and senate, so the time to pass it is now gone. Or because it already passed the majority vote, it now moves to the senate which we still control.
It was reintroduced so would have to pass in the House again which it most likely won't. If it does then would need 60 votes to pass in the Senate which it doesnt have. On the high end projection they might have maybe 56 but that's very optimistic.
Odds of it passing get worse for the rest of the decade.
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It was reintroduced so would have to pass in the House again which it most likely won't. If it does then would need 60 votes to pass in the Senate which it doesnt have. On the high end projection they might have maybe 56 but that's very optimistic.
Odds of it passing get worse for the rest of the decade.
It could have been attached to a budget bill, which requires a simple plurality to pass. I believe it was Congressman Massie who asked Trump to do just that and Trump said, "Nyet!"
Given that Democrats will control the House of Representatives for the rest of the decade, the chance of any concealed carry bill passing is zero.
Not that the law would have ever gone into effect had it been passed. All it takes is one district court judge to issue a nationwide injunction.
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The more I look at the restrictive CCW laws in HI, CA, NJ, MA, NY etc, and in light of the fact that we are all law abiding people who would never dream of doing anything illegal, I have come to this conclusion. If anyone living here wants to be able to legally carry a firearm for SD in their lifetime, you better plan to move to a free state. The only dimmest of hope is SCOTUS rules in our favor. If that happens, can HI appeal a SCOTUS decision? If not, can our legislature take 10 years to write laws that comply?
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The more I look at the restrictive CCW laws in HI, CA, NJ, MA, NY etc, and in light of the fact that we are all law abiding people who would never dream of doing anything illegal, I have come to this conclusion. If anyone living here wants to be able to legally carry a firearm for SD in their lifetime, you better plan to move to a free state. The only dimmest of hope is SCOTUS rules in our favor. If that happens, can HI appeal a SCOTUS decision?
I'm pretty sure there is no further appeal after a SCOTUS ruling, except in the form of another lawsuit that would approach the question from a slightly different point of law.
If not, can our legislature take 10 years to write laws that comply?
When the Illinois ban on concealed/open carry was invalidated, the legislature was given 180 days to write a law conforming to the dictates of the court re the right to carry... they produced a law on (surprise) the 180th day.
But even if there is a relatively short time limit to produce a conforming law here in Hawaii, should that ever happen, it's likely (inevitable?) that the law will be highly restrictive, maybe to the point of not conforming, and certainly be subject to likely further lawsuits. Does anyone imagine that whatever law might be crafted would be as far as possible from permitless carry (now in effect in 12 states with two more about to join the club)? The legislators here know something about the incompetence and irresponsibility of Hawaii residents that makes it necessary to deem them criminals should they exercise their right to bear arms... I've asked them what they know, and how they know it, but they refuse to tell me.
TLDR: Yeah, if you want to (legally) carry, move to the United States (except downstate New York, Maryland, New Jersey, and parts of coastal California).
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they should've voted on it long time ago. what a waste. that was one of my main points of voting for Trump, that and he's not HRC.
what a FAIL!!!!! >:(
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they should've voted on it long time ago. what a waste. that was one of my main points of voting for Trump, that and he's not HRC.
what a FAIL!!!!! >:(
#MeToo