2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: drck1000 on January 01, 2018, 08:50:16 PM
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https://lockedback.com/results-4-year-handgun-red-dot-study-sage-dynamics/
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shot bullseye with a dot and my groups shrank in half compared with irons
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shot bullseye with a dot and my groups shrank in half compared with irons
Nice. What gun?
I’ve been interested in a RDS handgun for a while. The cost of the dot has been the major hurdle. I’d likely go with a 17 or 19 MOS though.
I’ve long been a believer of red dots on long guns. Just haven’t taken the leap into handguns. I’ve shot handguns with RDS and they are nice once you get used to picking up the dot on the draw. I just have a hard time with the cost of the RDS being more than that gun. But maybe I have to think of it as overall value.
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Nice. What gun?
I’ve been interested in a RDS handgun for a while. The cost of the dot has been the major hurdle. I’d likely go with a 17 or 19 MOS though.
I’ve long been a believer of red dots on long guns. Just haven’t taken the leap into handguns. I’ve shot handguns with RDS and they are nice once you get used to picking up the dot on the draw. I just have a hard time with the cost of the RDS being more than that gun. But maybe I have to think of it as overall value.
Shoot my 19 with the Shield RMS on it the next time you come out. With the mount they designed specifically for the MOS models it was under $400. Have had it for a year, maybe 3 or 4k rounds on it. The always on feature and co-witnessing with standard height irons were the big sellers for me.
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Steep learning curve for me, mostly on first shot from the draw and sight tracking under rapid strings of fire. Precision at distance is very nice. I have a 19 set-up and go back and forth trying to get accustomed to it. Still no luck, but will give it another go.
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The price of the Trijicon RMR Adjustible LED model has come down a lot in the last year. Burris makes a great mini red dot as well. I ran one on my 12ga shotgun and a friend has one on his MOS Glock. Mine worked great even after firing boxes of 3in slugs and a bruised up shoulder!
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I'm waiting a little bit longer for it to get cheaper and sights to improve before putting one on m y handgun. Age is creeping up on me, I still have good sight but I notice it takes me a split second longer and little more effort to get things in focus
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Although it's not a glock(since like 75-80% of pistol shooters I see shoot glocks), the sig RX models are a good deal.
The 320RX's can be had for about 8 bills locally. I have both the compact and full size rx's have had no issues.
Did move one of the romeo 1s to my 320x5 that I shoot for uspsa carry optics division. Over a 1k rounds and no problems with holding zero or battery life. Did learn that the oem battery sucks and your better off just replacing it from the get go.
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The RMR 06/07 Type 1 is $350 on Cabela’s. If utilizing Active Junky and Raise, I believe it can be had around $300. Just picked up an 06 and am sending off my slide tomorrow
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I have one of the Glock MOS's. also have a Glock with an aftermarket slide cut specifically for the Trij RMR. the MOS, being universal, mounts the RMR higher than the RMR-specific slide since it has to have an adapter plate. Since I only consider the Trij RMR, I shoulda gone with the non-MOS and had the slide cut specifically for the RMR. makes for a lower combo. in retrospect...
some of the prices on the Glock RMR-cut slides nowadays are really attractive, e.g. Brownells, Lone Wolf.
when Trijicon vendors were trying to clear out the original-style RMR-06 inventory to make way for the Type II RMR-06, there were some one-time terrific deals to be had. combined with a BattleWerx plate, not so sure if there's any appreciable difference. but, just MHO.
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Shoot my 19 with the Shield RMS on it the next time you come out. With the mount they designed specifically for the MOS models it was under $400. Have had it for a year, maybe 3 or 4k rounds on it. The always on feature and co-witnessing with standard height irons were the big sellers for me.
Yeah, that would be cool. Thanks!
I've always liked the Shield to begin with.
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Steep learning curve for me, mostly on first shot from the draw and sight tracking under rapid strings of fire. Precision at distance is very nice. I have a 19 set-up and go back and forth trying to get accustomed to it. Still no luck, but will give it another go.
I haven't shot handguns with RDS from draw much, but picking up the dot from the draw was something that I noticed was a challenge for me. I found that it did get a little better for me after a few reps, which I assume is part of natural point of aim (or similar process), but something that I would like to spend more time with.
I did notice shooting steel at distance is also where the RDS helps since it eliminates the whole "focal plane confusion" deal. Similar to shooting long guns with red dot in that you're focus is on the target and you just put the dot on there.
Speaking of getting accustomed to handgun with RDS, to me it seems like a RDS on a long gun is somewhat natural transition for most. For me, I shot my AR with RDS more than with irons when I first started and had to put time to train with irons. But it seems like people pick up long guns with RDS very quickly. Do you think that's due to the more consistent positioning afforded by long guns with more points of contact with the gun?
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Although it's not a glock(since like 75-80% of pistol shooters I see shoot glocks), the sig RX models are a good deal.
The 320RX's can be had for about 8 bills locally. I have both the compact and full size rx's have had no issues.
Did move one of the romeo 1s to my 320x5 that I shoot for uspsa carry optics division. Over a 1k rounds and no problems with holding zero or battery life. Did learn that the oem battery sucks and your better off just replacing it from the get go.
My preference for a Glock with a RDS is so that I can compare between the two sighting options. However, I'd love to have a P320 with a RDS. Or even a PPQ 5" version with the RDS mount (I think Q or something like that).
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PPQ 5" version with the RDS mount (I think Q or something like that).
Q5
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Q5
Thanks Coach! :thumbsup:
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Nice. What gun?
I’ve been interested in a RDS handgun for a while. The cost of the dot has been the major hurdle. I’d likely go with a 17 or 19 MOS though.
I’ve long been a believer of red dots on long guns. Just haven’t taken the leap into handguns. I’ve shot handguns with RDS and they are nice once you get used to picking up the dot on the draw. I just have a hard time with the cost of the RDS being more than that gun. But maybe I have to think of it as overall value.
It was a 1911 with an Aimpoint T1
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Speaking of getting accustomed to handgun with RDS, to me it seems like a RDS on a long gun is somewhat natural transition for most. For me, I shot my AR with RDS more than with irons when I first started and had to put time to train with irons. But it seems like people pick up long guns with RDS very quickly. Do you think that's due to the more consistent positioning afforded by long guns with more points of contact with the gun?
I'm guessing the difference is on an AR15 the RDS dot and iron sights are at about the same height so you can keep the same cheek weld, stock placement, etc. On the handgun, the red dot is slightly higher. Doesn't seem like much but decades of muscle memory looking at the low iron sights would make it difficult to adjust. Also if you look at the red dot sight off angle, then the dot disappears in that small piece of glass. Iron sights you know where the sights are and can line them up quickly.
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It was a 1911 with an Aimpoint T1
Nice! A nice 1911 would be a good test for affect on accuracy between irons and a RDS.
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I'm guessing the difference is on an AR15 the RDS dot and iron sights are at about the same height so you can keep the same cheek weld, stock placement, etc. On the handgun, the red dot is slightly higher. Doesn't seem like much but decades of muscle memory looking at the low iron sights would make it difficult to adjust. Also if you look at the red dot sight off angle, then the dot disappears in that small piece of glass. Iron sights you know where the sights are and can line them up quickly.
I think long guns are sort of automatic in that you have contact with you shoulder and then the cheek part is more consistent. The dot is always sort of "just there" when I bring the rifle up. For me, I think I get sloppy on the draw with the handgun and RDS and I think because of how it's "just there" with the long gun. That I get sloppy and I think I don't have the gun level (or level enough) where I can't pick up the dot at first pass. Then I have to sort of adjust and pick up the dot. I think once I get the draw level correct, I think I could pick up the dot quicker, but I haven't been able to try.
I see what you are saying about the dot level, but that's not much difference for me since all my RDS on long guns are lower 1/3.
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That's the biggest learning curve is to learn that with the RDS youre looking over the iron sights and also not using them to cowitness. With rifles you have the reference point of your check well and shoulder to put you in the ball park of the RDS window.
That's why I prefer the sig Romeo 1 over the RMR, the window size is much larger on the Romeo 1 which gives you a larger margin of error when learning to pick up the dot.
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Was able to spend time with a 19 with RMR this past weekend. Making me want to go for it. Will be a decent chunk of change, but really seeing a lot of positive potential. Will surely be fun being able to try on my own for more than a few mags.
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I was the same way. For all of the downsides of the RMR, I didn’t want to spend that much money on it. Since the type IIs have come out though, it’s not hard to find the originals going for $3-350. I briefly tried the Vortex offerings and the DPP. Now I wish that I had just gone right to the RMR. And while I like my Unity ATOM slide, I still prefer my other slide that was worked over by ATEi. Surprisingly I don’t typically have a hard time finding the dot. Every now and then I’ll miss it on the draw, but I picked it up much faster than I expected. My biggest problem with the dot is the same as with irons - I jump on the trigger before my sights are really on target. No sight system will fix that. I do find that it helps with trigger control. The dot makes it very obvious if you’re influencing the gun in any direction. It’s stupid easy to make hits at distance, and I don’t think I’m even much slower, like many claim, though I haven’t thoroughly tested that one. Ultimately though, it’s a work around for poor technique. I suck at focusing on my front sight so the dot makes up for that. Pros and cons, as always.
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I was the same way. For all of the downsides of the RMR, I didn’t want to spend that much money on it. Since the type IIs have come out though, it’s not hard to find the originals going for $3-350. I briefly tried the Vortex offerings and the DPP. Now I wish that I had just gone right to the RMR. And while I like my Unity ATOM slide, I still prefer my other slide that was worked over by ATEi. Surprisingly I don’t typically have a hard time finding the dot. Every now and then I’ll miss it on the draw, but I picked it up much faster than I expected. My biggest problem with the dot is the same as with irons - I jump on the trigger before my sights are really on target. No sight system will fix that. I do find that it helps with trigger control. The dot makes it very obvious if you’re influencing the gun in any direction. It’s stupid easy to make hits at distance, and I don’t think I’m even much slower, like many claim, though I haven’t thoroughly tested that one. Ultimately though, it’s a work around for poor technique. I suck at focusing on my front sight so the dot makes up for that. Pros and cons, as always.
The part of picking up the dot on the draw is something I did notice initially and again this past weekend. I was able to pick it the dot quickly between shots. Or at least quicker or better than I remember in the past.
I hear what you are saying about work around for poor technique. I can see how if you shot with a dot for a while that your performance with fixed/regular sights would suffer. But same said for carbine with red dot. I rarely shoot carbine with irons, but I try to make it a point to do so regularly.
Never thought about the aspect of the dot showing errors in trigger manipulation, but I guess similar to using a SIRT, but you have your actually trigger and can see how the dot jumps when dry firing.
Your gun also has a comp, right? With the custom slide, that’s some $$$. I’ll start with basic and see, but I was doing to research and there are tons of options for RMR slides, comped barrels, etc.
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The part of picking up the dot on the draw is something I did notice initially and again this past weekend. I was able to pick it the dot quickly between shots. Or at least quicker or better than I remember in the past.
I hear what you are saying about work around for poor technique. I can see how if you shot with a dot for a while that your performance with fixed/regular sights would suffer. But same said for carbine with red dot. I rarely shoot carbine with irons, but I try to make it a point to do so regularly.
Never thought about the aspect of the dot showing errors in trigger manipulation, but I guess similar to using a SIRT, but you have your actually trigger and can see how the dot jumps when dry firing.
Your gun also has a comp, right? With the custom slide, that’s some $$$. I’ll start with basic and see, but I was doing to research and there are tons of options for RMR slides, comped barrels, etc.
Yeah I have the KKM comp and barrel. I like it a lot, at first I wasn’t sure how useful it was but I can definitely feel a difference when shooting 5+ rounds in a string. Surprisingly I didn’t have any issues running the cheap 115gr stuff through my ATEi slide with comp, but I will have some issues with the ATOM slide and comp. I assume the latter must be a little heavier. Unfortunately it is quite a lot of money, and micro RDS are far from their big brothers that usually go on carbines. But, putting money aside, I think the pros outweigh the cons so then it’s just a matter of saving the money. Or building that credit card debt...
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Yeah I have the KKM comp and barrel. I like it a lot, at first I wasn’t sure how useful it was but I can definitely feel a difference when shooting 5+ rounds in a string. Surprisingly I didn’t have any issues running the cheap 115gr stuff through my ATEi slide with comp, but I will have some issues with the ATOM slide and comp. I assume the latter must be a little heavier. Unfortunately it is quite a lot of money, and micro RDS are far from their big brothers that usually go on carbines. But, putting money aside, I think the pros outweigh the cons so then it’s just a matter of saving the money. Or building that credit card debt...
I've noticed many with KKM comp and barrels lately. Never really looked into comped barrels, or really any aftermarket barrels for Glocks. I considered an aftermarket barrel to go along with a complete 17 slide that I was going to get front serrations on, but in that case I just wanted a complete "upper" set as opposed to wanting to test out an aftermarket barrel.
Speaking of cheap 115 gr stuff. I've seen many with negative things to say about Rem UMC 115 gr, but over the past maybe 5-6 years, that's been my favorite bulk ammo for training and other plinking. S&B is another one of my favorites, but harder to find and usually more expensive than the UMC stuff.
Yeah. I have enough $$$ for the MOS and the dot. Just a matter of setting it aside for that purpose as opposed to other expenses. That and rapback. . . :grrr:
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I don’t look too hard for Ammo but haven’t been impressed by the UMC stuff. I just buy it because it’s usually cheapest. When I get back to the mainland it’ll be easier to feed it straight 124gr like Lawman. Barrels seem to be hit or miss. Everyone is making a Glock barrel nowadays but based off the studies I’ve seen, there are only a few that will outshoot the stock Glock barrel. The KKM didn’t always perform the best, but it was among the best in every test and they have a reputation for great barrels in other platforms so I figured I might as well stick with the RS spec, despite the lead time. I don’t have personal experience with the MOS, but have heard of it loosening over a few hundred rounds. And it cowitnesses weird with the RMR. YMMV, but after almost an entire year of going back and forth with hands on the ATOM slide, my milled ATEi slide, the Venom, Viper, Delta Point Pro, and the RMR, I wish I had just done the RMR and ATEi combo from the start. Even with the capability of the ATOM slide, the true Roland Special has been my favorite. But maybe that will change when if a new wonder dot gets dropped at shot. Who knows.
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FYI for those following the thread, I'm reposting my ATOM slide for sale soon.
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Was looking into ATEi the other day.
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They're the gold standard, but not cheap and the turn around time will take at least a month. Jagerworks apparently does good work for less, but I didn't like their serrations. Either way, they're only worth it if you know which optic you like. I didn't, so the Atom slide made sense.
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Currently have my slide off at Primary Machine. They have a good reputation as far as optic cuts as well. Will let you know when I get it back. They had a 20% off Christmas sale that I jumped at and have decent off sale pricing as well
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Took first step to the dark side and ordered a Glock RMR 17 slide. Will have the complete slide with everything except the RMR. Will likely have to wait a little bit for the RMR funds. Thinking the 3.25 MOA Type 2.