2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: macsak on February 16, 2018, 05:13:07 PM
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https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=HB&billnumber=1908
text of the bill
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2018/bills/HB1908_HD1_.htm
please send to all your freedom-loving friends and relatives
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You're late Mac.
Already done. 8)
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You're late Mac.
Already done. 8)
that's not what she told me ever
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Comments/feedback on if this is a good argument? Or am I swinging wide?
As a law-abiding Hawaii gun owner, I respectfully urge you to oppose House Bill 1908.
Removing law abiding citizens access to firearm accessories will do nothing to stop or deter criminals and their activities regarding weapons use. Instantly turning lawful citizens into felons because of owning certain property without due process, nor compensation, is in clear violation of the 4th, 5th, and 14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
The 4th Amendment states:
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
The 5th Amendment further protects property, by stating:
“No person shall be … deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.”
The 14th amendment states:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Once again, oppose this bill and please consider working on bills that will actually prevent crimes and catching / incarcerating criminals.
Law abiding gun owners are not the problem in this state.
Again, as a fellow Hawaii resident, I urge you to oppose House Bill 1908.
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This is coming up. Bump.
Any other suggestions on rebuttals to this bill?
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This is coming up. Bump.
Any other suggestions on rebuttals to this bill?
"Stupid is as stupid does"?
I can't help it, I'm beyond disgusted.
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How about adding the 14th amendment as well?
All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
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I actually started off by complimenting them on how they had cleaned up the language of the bill. A fairly amazing accomplishment for them.
Then I asked them if they were going to classify rubber bands as a "Device to accelerate the rate of fire", whether they would become illegal to own, and if they thought I would be charged with a crime simply by having rubber bands in my pocket at the range where I "Could" use them.
Of course, this being an exercise in logic and critical thinking, it will probably be lost on them. Assuming they manage to read it in its entirety.
They will undoubtedly pass it, and feel reassured, because they "Did Something". However utterly useless that "Something" may be.
As usual, it will be "Damn the facts, full speed ahead!".
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I actually started off by complimenting them on how they had cleaned up the language of the bill. A fairly amazing accomplishment for them.
Then I asked them if they were going to classify rubber bands as a "Device to accelerate the rate of fire", whether they would become illegal to own, and if they thought I would be charged with a crime simply by having rubber bands in my pocket at the range where I "Could" use them.
Of course, this being an exercise in logic and critical thinking, it will probably be lost on them. Assuming they manage to read it in its entirety.
They will undoubtedly pass it, and feel reassured, because they "Did Something". However utterly useless that "Something" may be.
As usual, it will be "Damn the facts, full speed ahead!".
I'm going to write some emails tonight, if I have time, and inquire what provisions they are going to implement, when they do pass this, for people to abide this law without automatically turning into a felon and criminal if they already own these items. Items that are already deemed legal and defined legal by the ATF.
Or maybe that's what they want? If you already own these, and are, with the stroke of a pen, now a felon, you must, within 24 hrs. (the other bill that is sailing through), surrender all your firearms and ammunition.
Ah yes, seeing clear now, the intention!
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I actually started off by complimenting them on how they had cleaned up the language of the bill. A fairly amazing accomplishment for them.
Then I asked them if they were going to classify rubber bands as a "Device to accelerate the rate of fire", whether they would become illegal to own, and if they thought I would be charged with a crime simply by having rubber bands in my pocket at the range where I "Could" use them.
Of course, this being an exercise in logic and critical thinking, it will probably be lost on them. Assuming they manage to read it in its entirety.
They will undoubtedly pass it, and feel reassured, because they "Did Something". However utterly useless that "Something" may be.
As usual, it will be "Damn the facts, full speed ahead!".
They want to continue to “do something” that serves to make them FEEL safe as opposed to doing things that actually serve to make folks safe or give them the freedom and capacity to better defend themselves.
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I'm going to write some emails tonight, if I have time, and inquire what provisions they are going to implement, when they do pass this, for people to abide this law without automatically turning into a felon and criminal if they already own these items. Items that are already deemed legal and defined legal by the ATF.
Or maybe that's what they want? If you already own these, and are, with the stroke of a pen, now a felon, you must, within 24 hrs. (the other bill that is sailing through), surrender all your firearms and ammunition.
Ah yes, seeing clear now, the intention!
SCOTUS clearly ruled a long time ago that felons do not have to register guns or in any other way inform police departments or any other government agency that they are illegal possessors of any illegal item because that violates their right against self-incrimination.
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Thanks for the suggestions on rebuttal, it provides a good start on formulating my own reaponse
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Thanks for the suggestions on rebuttal, it provides a good start on formulating my own reaponse
let the ATF decide
or "multi-burst" and "burst" are not true firearms designations
and you cannot use "burst" to define "multi-burst"
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let the ATF decide
or "multi-burst" and "burst" are not true firearms designations
and you cannot use "burst" to define "multi-burst"
They removed "burst" from the amended version, HD1, but they still use "multiburst trigger activator" as the connotation for the totality of the banned devices. Now that definition is "simulates automatic gunfire". But of course they don't define "simulate[d] automatic gunfire". The whole thing makes no sense. None at all. But that's what they do. I'm betting it passes.
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I would like to inquire what provisions you are going to implement, if you pass this bill, for people to abide this law, without automatically turning into a felon and criminal, if they already own these items.
These items that are being legislated against already have been vetted and deemed legal and defined legal by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), according to firearms laws.
These devices are very expensive property and are considered legal. What kind of compensation will you give to persons who now have to somehow legally get rid of these devices? What is the procedure for surrendering LEGAL items, which this law is intended to summarily turn illegal, with no due process of law or trial, with the assumption that they are intended to be used in any crime?
A response to these questions is appreciated.
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I would like to inquire what provisions you are going to implement, if you pass this bill, for people to abide this law, without automatically turning into a felon and criminal, if they already own these items.
These items that are being legislated against already have been vetted and deemed legal and defined legal by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), according to firearms laws.
These devices are very expensive property and are considered legal. What kind of compensation will you give to persons who now have to somehow legally get rid of these devices? What is the procedure for surrendering LEGAL items, which this law is intended to summarily turn illegal, with no due process of law or trial, with the assumption that they are intended to be used in any crime?
A response to these questions is appreciated.
Are you submitting that as testimony or sending to all the legislators in the house or all the reps on the committee or who?
Be sure to post "all" the responses you get. :shaka:
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Are you submitting that as testimony or sending to all the legislators in the house or all the reps on the committee or who?
Be sure to post "all" the responses you get. :shaka:
Right now I asked of the committee members. I plan on incorporating into the testimony as well.
I will post any responses
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Below is my testimony. Heavies went the constitutional route, I went with the route that under the vague description of the law, you're pretty much ensuring everyone is a potential felon.
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I am a law-abiding Hawaii gun owner, and I urge you to oppose House Bill 1908. I know there are many other hawaii gun owners that feel strongly against this bill as well.
Automatic weaponry is already illegal under existing state and federal law. A new law that expands on it would only serve to ensnare legal gun owners
"Attorney General Doug Chin opined they already are banned under existing Hawaii law that prohibits modifying firearms to convert them into automatic weapons."
Criminals will buy these devices on the black market easily if they wish, and do not care about any laws prohibiting such devices, and ensnaring legal gun owners.
My guess is that the authors of this bill aren't firearms owners, and therefore do not realize that there are many techniques used to "simulate automatic fire" that don't require the usage of any special devices. Below is a video of someone demonstrating how to use the bump stock technique with a standard BELT LOOP. You can use rubber bands, belt buckles, straps, makeshift home devices, pretty much ANYTHING that makes use of the motion of the recoil of to activate the trigger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZCO-06qRgY
Is this bill banning pants with belt loops, belt buckles, rubber bands, holsters, and everything else that can "simulates automatic gunfire by allowing standard function of a semiautomatic firearm with a static positioned trigger finger or a device that fires multiple shots with the pull and release of the trigger;"? I assure you, those devices are many, and this bill creates potential felons out of a lot of people for no reason.
Once again, please oppose this bill and please consider working on bills that will actually prevent crimes and catching / incarcerating criminals and not designed to ensnare law abiding citizens with more restrictions and subject to vague laws open to interpretation by law enforcement. As it stands, if this law went into effect, HPD could walk down the line at the range, and arrest 99/100 people there because they possess a " multiburst trigger activator" on their pants in the form of belt loops or belt buckles.
Law abiding gun owners are not the problem in this state.
Again, as a fellow Hawaii resident, I urge you to oppose House Bill 1908.
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I think it would be good if more members can pursue the argument that the bill potentially criminalizes everyone in hawaii, as everyone has "multiburst trigger activators" in the form of pants with belt loops or rubber bands". If more members make this point, it will be harder for them to ignore.
Is this bill banning pants with belt loops, belt buckles, rubber bands, holsters, and everything else that can "simulates automatic gunfire by allowing standard function of a semiautomatic firearm with a static positioned trigger finger or a device that fires multiple shots with the pull and release of the trigger;"?