2aHawaii
General Topics => Political Discussion => Topic started by: screen on March 03, 2018, 01:22:59 PM
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I know this is going to be a very controversial topic in this community, and many of you will passionately disagree with what I'm about to say. I hope that despite these disagreements, we can keep the conversation cordial and stay friendly and supportive of each other on other matters.
That being said, the NRA must die.
I've long since disliked the NRA. From their history of anti -LGBT comments ( https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/02/5-examples-prove-nra-hates-lgbtq-people-much-gun-control/ ), to they're complete lack of empathy and tact ( https://youtu.be/bOJQFNOQqCY ), I have always felt they put a bad face on the gun industry and community.
But this:
http://variety.com/2018/politics/news/ajit-pai-nra-cpac-1202709775/
is the last straw.
For those of you who aren't familiar with the net neutrality issue, I highly encourage you to learn more from sites such as Save the Internet and Battle for the Net. It is a very serious issue that, if passes, could entirely destroy the internet as we know it, and small sites like this would completely vanish from existence. I have yet to talk to a SINGLE person who had actually looked into this issue more than the blatant lies the ISPs are spreading and not know it to be an atrocity.
And after the FCC, and specifically their chairman Ajit Pai, pass the vote to kill net neutrality, the NRA actually has the audacity to give this man an award?
This is unacceptable, plain and simple.
Now I know that this situation is a little more complicated for us. For those of us who ate instructors, NRA certification is a requirement in this state. I even got my pistol cert before I moved here, but I did it only because I needed a piece of paper that verified I knew what I was talking about, not because I liked the NRA curriculum (which I don't.) So renew your certs as needed, I know I have to renew mine next month, but don't give them another cent otherwise.
Yes, the NRA has protected gun rights more than any other group out there, but that is only because they are the most known with the most money. But if we instead give our support to other groups such as 2AF, GOA, and NSSF, then they can become bigger and fight for our rights without making is look bad and supporting asinine policies that have nothing to do with what we donate to them for.
I know it won't happen quick or easy, but it's time to start the process. The NRA must die.
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I am the NRA.
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I know this is going to be a very controversial topic in this community, and many of you will passionately disagree with what I'm about to say. I hope that despite these disagreements, we can keep the conversation cordial and stay friendly and supportive of each other on other matters.
That being said, the NRA must die.
I've long since disliked the NRA. From their history of anti -LGBT comments ( https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/02/5-examples-prove-nra-hates-lgbtq-people-much-gun-control/ ), to they're complete lack of empathy and tact ( https://youtu.be/bOJQFNOQqCY ), I have always felt they put a bad face on the gun industry and community.
But this:
http://variety.com/2018/politics/news/ajit-pai-nra-cpac-1202709775/
is the last straw.
For those of you who aren't familiar with the net neutrality issue, I highly encourage you to learn more from sites such as Save the Internet and Battle for the Net. It is a very serious issue that, if passes, could entirely destroy the internet as we know it, and small sites like this would completely vanish from existence. I have yet to talk to a SINGLE person who had actually looked into this issue more than the blatant lies the ISPs are spreading and not know it to be an atrocity.
And after the FCC, and specifically their chairman Ajit Pai, pass the vote to kill net neutrality, the NRA actually has the audacity to give this man an award?
This is unacceptable, plain and simple.
Now I know that this situation is a little more complicated for us. For those of us who ate instructors, NRA certification is a requirement in this state. I even got my pistol cert before I moved here, but I did it only because I needed a piece of paper that verified I knew what I was talking about, not because I liked the NRA curriculum (which I don't.) So renew your certs as needed, I know I have to renew mine next month, but don't give them another cent otherwise.
Yes, the NRA has protected gun rights more than any other group out there, but that is only because they are the most known with the most money. But if we instead give our support to other groups such as 2AF, GOA, and NSSF, then they can become bigger and fight for our rights without making is look bad and supporting asinine policies that have nothing to do with what we donate to them for.
I know it won't happen quick or easy, but it's time to start the process. The NRA must die.
I am also the NRA, Patron member, certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Instructor as well as a certified RSO and RSO Instructor. Just sent a $500.00 donation to the NRA/ILA. NRA must die? Don’t ask me what I think you should do, troll.
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To each their own.
My take is the NRA is doing a good job overall and you can't satisfy everyone as a large organization. They have a large membership, 5 million, that is very diverse and they have to try and meet the needs of everyone from hunters, youth groups, action shooters, instructors, self defense etc along with members from both ends of the spectrum - liberals and conservatives, antigun and progun, complacent to extreme. Some people say NRA is too aggressive, others say it's not aggressive enough, and most probably don't care. They're usually good at staying out of other politics and they shouldn't have gotten involved in net neutrality. The Charlton Heston "Cold Dead Hands" was a great marketing move. It got people involved and will be a remembered slogan for decades. You're not going to win if you can't get people involved, and you can't get people involved without getting them excited.
Also NRA does way more than SAF and GOA to further the 2nd amendment. SAF and GOA have an advantage being small organizations where they can adapt quickly and are able to target a specific clientele. I believe building the community is as important, or more important, than winning 2a cases and legislation. From what I know, this is comparing the three.
1. Judicial cases - NRA, SAF, GOA
2. Legislative - NRA (National and State), SAF (National and minimal State), GOA (National and minimal State)
3. Elections - NRA
4. Firearms Training - NRA
5. Law Enforcement Training - NRA
6. Military Training - NRA
7. Range Development - NRA
8. Youth Training and Programs- NRA
9. High School and College programs - NRA
10. Hunting and conservation - NRA
11. Community development - NRA
12. Competition programs - NRA
13. Business support - NRA
14. Local club support - NRA
15. Firearm history - NRA
and so on.
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Well since you brought up the LGBTQ community they haven't been so nice either. They've attacked religion, faith, parental rights and private business. Their campaign went from tolerance to in-your-face policy and regulation. Don't want to bake a cake for them? They'll sue and harass you out of existence. You want to raise your kid as a heterosexual? No you can't. So much for free speech and religion.
Granted I respect the LGBTQ people but they need to respect us as well.
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The NRA is not a biological organism. As such, saying "it must die" implies a more emotional, visceral feeling toward the NRA as an organization than a logical opinion of its stance on issues.
You're welcome to start your own NRA-like organization, or to give all your money to another group. But, just because YOU don't like the NRA, you want it to "die?" That's a very Extreme Left-Wing, Liberal, Fascist attitude.
If you think anything you "need" is a right that the government must pay for, and anything you don't like should be banned or boycotted out of existence, there's no maybe about it -- YOU ARE A LIBERAL.
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Bro....
Of course you are free to say whatever you want.
You are intelligent and articulate.
And you are well aware that the NRA has many supporters here in the islands.
Hawaii is a small place. We have a saying here....
"Everybody knows everybody"
This is especially true in the small firearms community.
If you want to be a respected instructor, this isn't the way to accomplish that.
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No organization is perfect. There's a bunch of stuff I don't like about the NRA as well. I think they enjoy playing both sides of the fence when it comes to politics and actually welcome the media feeding frenzy after every mass shooting because it boosts their numbers. Most importantly for an organization that is supposed to be about protecting the second amendment they sure don't seem to understand why it was written. In order for the militia to be effective is necessary for private citizens to have access to affordable recently manufactured automatic weapons. FOPA was a huge sell-out that made possible this endless back-and-forth debate on banning models, parts, and accessories that constantly keeps the PAC coffers full and professional lobbyists fat and happy. I won't give the organization a dime until Wayne LaPierre is gone.
NRA is definitely not the only game in town, and the more people support alternative organizations the more they will get the message that it's not okay to keep jerking the fear chain to make the money rain.
It would be a shame if NRA disappeared, though. I'd much prefer if they just grew up a bit.
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I am the NRA.
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Most importantly for an organization that is supposed to be about protecting the second amendment they sure don't seem to understand why it was written. In order for the militia to be effective is necessary for private citizens to have access to affordable recently manufactured automatic weapons.
The NRA membership contained a lot of hunters, law enforcement, military, and competitors in the past who didn't see a need for automatics for the public hence the law. Even today the subject of automatics is very divided in the gun community.
The active users of 2ahawaii represent the extreme right of the gun rights movement and discussion on automatics is a taboo here.
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SNIP
I know it won't happen quick or easy, but it's time to start the process. The NRA must die.
You were kinda all over the place, but I'll just say that the NRA is far from perfect. Yes, change doesn't happen quickly, or maybe even at all in many cases with respect to the NRA. I have seen some changes here and there. Like any large organization, some good and some :facepalm: worthy. You seem to have many bones to pick with many things and I don't really follow where you're going most of the times. That said, I'd shudder to envision what gun rights would be like without the NRA.
The NRA membership contained a lot of hunters, law enforcement, military, and competitors in the past who didn't see a need for automatics for the public hence the law. Even today the subject of automatics is very divided in the gun community.
The active users of 2ahawaii represent the extreme right of the gun rights movement and discussion on automatics is a taboo here.
???
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The NRA membership contained a lot of hunters, law enforcement, military, and competitors in the past who didn't see a need for automatics for the public hence the law. Even today the subject of automatics is very divided in the gun community.
The active users of 2ahawaii represent the extreme right of the gun rights movement and discussion on automatics is a taboo here.
Wait wut? I think the vast majority of active 2A users are definitely in favor of automatic firearms. I don't think we talk about it often because we just don't have them but conversation about full-auto is far from taboo O.o
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Wait wut? I think the vast majority of active 2A users are definitely in favor of automatic firearms. I don't think we talk about it often because we just don't have them but conversation about full-auto is far from taboo O.o
I don't think full auto isn't discussed here because it's taboo. While full auto guns aren't very high on my want list at all, in fact not really on my want list at all. I do find them interesting and fun to shoot on the rare chance that I have the opportunity. I agree that it's not really discussed here because I don't think that many have that much time shooting full auto (our former service members aside).
I also think view myself as extreme in any regard. . .
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Whenever I bring up the topic is automatics here I get crickets. When I went person to person getting testimony, a lot of people agreed with the bump stock ban. Seemed like 25 to 50%. Almost everyone opposed the modification ban
We are the top 1% of the gun rights movement. Most people that own a gun don't shoot it regularly. Most that shoot their gun regularly don't track laws, testify or get involved.
Most of the gun rights discussions and testimony writers take place here, some facebook boards, and the HRA. The 1%.
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I don't think full auto isn't discussed here because it's taboo. While full auto guns aren't very high on my want list at all, in fact not really on my want list at all. I do find them interesting and fun to shoot on the rare chance that I have the opportunity. I agree that it's not really discussed here because I don't think that many have that much time shooting full auto (our former service members aside).
I also think view myself as extreme in any regard. . .
My friend you haven't lived until you've you've fired a belt fed on full auto lol. While I would probably never purchase something like a M2 Browning or M249, what I would absolutely love to own is a select fire HK MP5 and HK416 10.4" with a can.
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Wait wut? I think the vast majority of active 2A users are definitely in favor of automatic firearms. I don't think we talk about it often because we just don't have them but conversation about full-auto is far from taboo O.o
Id say most tactical active 2a users. A lot of hunters, skeet and trap shooter, law enforcement, bullseye and high power competitors are against it. Even a lot of military shooters are against.
They make up a lot of the NRA hence the NRAs sometimes moderate position on the 2nd amendment.
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Id say most tactical active 2a users. A lot of hunters, skeet and trap shooter, law enforcement, bullseye and high power competitors are against it. Even a lot of military shooters are against.
A condition of growing up Hawaii I guess.
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My friend you haven't lived until you've you've fired a belt fed on full auto lol. While I would probably never purchase something like a M2 Browning or M249, what I would absolutely love to own is a select fire HK MP5 and HK416 10.4" with a can.
I've done the MP5 and Colt SBR auto thing. M249 (ish), I've only shot the semiauto versions.
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Id say most tactical active 2a users. A lot of hunters, skeet and trap shooter, law enforcement, bullseye and high power competitors are against it. Even a lot of military shooters are against.
They make up a lot of the NRA hence the NRAs sometimes moderate position on the 2nd amendment.
Gotcha. A lot of "it doesn't impact me, so whatever" kind of Ainokea attitude.
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The active users of 2ahawaii represent the extreme right of the gun rights movement and discussion on automatics is a taboo here.
Can we discuss the "Fully Semi-Automatics" ? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Id say most tactical active 2a users. A lot of hunters, skeet and trap shooter, law enforcement, bullseye and high power competitors are against it. Even a lot of military shooters are against.
They make up a lot of the NRA hence the NRAs sometimes moderate position on the 2nd amendment.
This is how they remove freedom. One crumb at a time..
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQ4RZpcqF-mfHWpQYG-8Izo3A8aEn5h4Ih14lzi7tW-g-uqx3Y)
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There's definitely some debate to be had on full auto, but my point was about it being a backroom deal that the members never had a chance to sign off on and the predictable consequences are the creeping feature bans we are plagued with today.
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I'm a life member of the NRA. I'm also a GOA member.
I don't join HRA because they are Oahu centric and I really can't
sign on to people that don't fight against Democrats
and their stupid laws, by being an example,
of what is right..
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I'm a life member of the NRA. I'm also a GOA member.
I don't join HRA because they are Oahu centric and I really can't
sign on to people that don't fight against Democrats
and their stupid laws, by being an example,
of what is right..
There are HRA directors for Big Island and Maui county. Meet with them and figure out how to be more active out there.
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There are HRA directors for Big Island and Maui county. Meet with them and figure out how to be more active out there.
Who are they?
I think I know of maybe two people, on the big island that will admit
to having guns.
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Who are they?
I think I know of maybe two people, on the big island that will admit
to having guns.
http://hawaiirifleassociation.org/about-hra/board-of-directors/
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Who are they?
I think I know of maybe two people, on the big island that will admit
to having guns.
I know a lot of people who have guns on the Big Island and are open about it.
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I know a lot of people who have guns on the Big Island and are open about it.
Let me re-phrase.
Most people I know refuse to register their guns.
So nobody has any guns. Get it?
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First of all I'd like to apologize for posting a thread then ghosting, life's been hectic from just about every angle lately.
To each their own.
My take is the NRA is doing a good job overall and you can't satisfy everyone as a large organization. They have a large membership, 5 million, that is very diverse and they have to try and meet the needs of everyone from hunters, youth groups, action shooters, instructors, self defense etc along with members from both ends of the spectrum - liberals and conservatives, antigun and progun, complacent to extreme. Some people say NRA is too aggressive, others say it's not aggressive enough, and most probably don't care. They're usually good at staying out of other politics and they shouldn't have gotten involved in net neutrality. The Charlton Heston "Cold Dead Hands" was a great marketing move. It got people involved and will be a remembered slogan for decades. You're not going to win if you can't get people involved, and you can't get people involved without getting them excited.
Also NRA does way more than SAF and GOA to further the 2nd amendment. SAF and GOA have an advantage being small organizations where they can adapt quickly and are able to target a specific clientele. I believe building the community is as important, or more important, than winning 2a cases and legislation. From what I know, this is comparing the three.
1. Judicial cases - NRA, SAF, GOA
2. Legislative - NRA (National and State), SAF (National and minimal State), GOA (National and minimal State)
3. Elections - NRA
4. Firearms Training - NRA
5. Law Enforcement Training - NRA
6. Military Training - NRA
7. Range Development - NRA
8. Youth Training and Programs- NRA
9. High School and College programs - NRA
10. Hunting and conservation - NRA
11. Community development - NRA
12. Competition programs - NRA
13. Business support - NRA
14. Local club support - NRA
15. Firearm history - NRA
and so on.
The cold dead hands thing made the NRA, and by extension, seem like a heartless organization that doesn't care about people's lives, which is the exact damming image that's hurting us so much.
Of course the NRA does more, but only because its the big name everyone knows. If the other groups got more support, they could grow. And while there may not currently be any other organization that does all of that, there are multiple organizations for any one of those topics. I'd also add that, on a personal note, I never liked NRA training curriculums. I only got my instructor certificate so I'd have a piece of paper to show I know what I'm talking about.
Well since you brought up the LGBTQ community they haven't been so nice either. They've attacked religion, faith, parental rights and private business. Their campaign went from tolerance to in-your-face policy and regulation. Don't want to bake a cake for them? They'll sue and harass you out of existence. You want to raise your kid as a heterosexual? No you can't. So much for free speech and religion.
Granted I respect the LGBTQ people but they need to respect us as well.
I've been around PLENTY of LGBTQ people, from casual associates to MANY of my dearest friends. I have never once actually met a LGBTQ person who cares if your kid is straight or gay, as long as you let the kid be who they are. And the cake thing? How was that any different than diners refusing to serve Dr King and Co. during the civil rights movement. All they want is equality. The ones who try to force kids to be LGTBQ or say straight people are evil are a very vocal minority giving the whole community a bad name, which is exactly my point with the NRA.
The NRA is not a biological organism. As such, saying "it must die" implies a more emotional, visceral feeling toward the NRA as an organization than a logical opinion of its stance on issues.
You're welcome to start your own NRA-like organization, or to give all your money to another group. But, just because YOU don't like the NRA, you want it to "die?" That's a very Extreme Left-Wing, Liberal, Fascist attitude.
If you think anything you "need" is a right that the government must pay for, and anything you don't like should be banned or boycotted out of existence, there's no maybe about it -- YOU ARE A LIBERAL.
You're taking rhetoric far too literal.
And as for me being liberal? Political viewpoints are FAR to varied and complicated to try to apply a binary scale to everyone's view (liberal vs conservative, left vs right, Republican vs Democratic, ect.) Trying to apply these titles to others accomplishes nothing. Many of my views would be considered liberal, many conservative, and many in between. But this isn't about something I just don't like, it's something that is giving our community a bad image and thus actively hurting the very cause they claim to support.
No organization is perfect. There's a bunch of stuff I don't like about the NRA as well. I think they enjoy playing both sides of the fence when it comes to politics and actually welcome the media feeding frenzy after every mass shooting because it boosts their numbers. Most importantly for an organization that is supposed to be about protecting the second amendment they sure don't seem to understand why it was written. In order for the militia to be effective is necessary for private citizens to have access to affordable recently manufactured automatic weapons. FOPA was a huge sell-out that made possible this endless back-and-forth debate on banning models, parts, and accessories that constantly keeps the PAC coffers full and professional lobbyists fat and happy. I won't give the organization a dime until Wayne LaPierre is gone.
NRA is definitely not the only game in town, and the more people support alternative organizations the more they will get the message that it's not okay to keep jerking the fear chain to make the money rain.
It would be a shame if NRA disappeared, though. I'd much prefer if they just grew up a bit.
You were kinda all over the place, but I'll just say that the NRA is far from perfect. Yes, change doesn't happen quickly, or maybe even at all in many cases with respect to the NRA. I have seen some changes here and there. Like any large organization, some good and some :facepalm: worthy. You seem to have many bones to pick with many things and I don't really follow where you're going most of the times. That said, I'd shudder to envision what gun rights would be like without the NRA.
???
If other organizations gained the support the NRA lost, and thus had the resources to do everything they do but better, what would be lost? Like you said, change isn't quick, there's no way the NRA will disappear over night. As long as we as a community help the other groups grow at the same rate the NRA falls, there shouldn't be much problem.
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You'll have more luck getting what you want by being FOR something than selling people on being AGAINST something.
You said "The NRA Must Die". That's what you are against, and to the degree you want the organization to perish.
You haven't said what alternative you support or why. What are you FOR? Ambiguous, nonspecific "If the other groups got more support, they could grow."
The fact is the NRA has already "grown" to where they are the best chance we have to do what's needed to protect our rights. You haven't endorsed any other groups, so I can only assume you're delving in the hypothetical.
Against he NRA, for something, something, maybe something else.
The cold dead hands thing made the NRA, and by extension, seem like a heartless organization that doesn't care about people's lives, which is the exact damming image that's hurting us so much.
You're welcome to have your opinion, but don't project your ideas onto anyone other than yourself. Using ambiguous comments on how the slogan "made the NRA seem like a heartless organization" needs support. If you can't attribute that to a source or poll, then just say it's your opinion. That's all we need to know.
As for the "From my cold dead hands" quote, you accused ME of taking what you say too literally? That's laughable given your comment.
Anyone who truly supports and defends the Second Amendment understands what that phrase represents, and why it's relevant to the purpose of the amendment. If you aren't willing to defend your rights to the point of dying with your gun in your hand, then you don't get the reasoning for the 2nd in the first place.
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I've been around PLENTY of LGBTQ people, from casual associates to MANY of my dearest friends. I have never once actually met a LGBTQ person who cares if your kid is straight or gay, as long as you let the kid be who they are. And the cake thing? How was that any different than diners refusing to serve Dr King and Co. during the civil rights movement. All they want is equality. The ones who try to force kids to be LGTBQ or say straight people are evil are a very vocal minority giving the whole community a bad name, which is exactly my point with the NRA.
That's called parenting and its up to the parents NOT up to the LGBTQ community. Children are to be led and guided by their own parents not someone else. The difference with the cake thing is that the LGBTQ community "bullied" this business out of existence. Did Dr. King and Co do the same thing? Nope. My point is the same community that cries about bullying and all that crap are hypocrites. If the means serves them then it is justified. That couple could have easily gone to another business to get a cake done. Find a cake maker that would make them a cake. It's a freedom that they and the cake maker enjoys. No one is forcing them to choose ONE cake maker. Instead they made a case out of it and killed that ONE business. The LGBTQ did not respect that cake maker's religious beliefs. Like I said its this kind of in-your-face policy that the LGBTQ community touts.
You can't compare the evil ones to the NRA. Like I said I'm a Life member. You don't own guns? I don't care. Enjoy your freedoms to choose. Respect my decision to raise my children according to MY family values in MY house. Respect MY faith.
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No organization is perfect. There's a bunch of stuff I don't like about the NRA as well. I think they enjoy playing both sides of the fence when it comes to politics and actually welcome the media feeding frenzy after every mass shooting because it boosts their numbers. Most importantly for an organization that is supposed to be about protecting the second amendment they sure don't seem to understand why it was written. In order for the militia to be effective is necessary for private citizens to have access to affordable recently manufactured automatic weapons. FOPA was a huge sell-out that made possible this endless back-and-forth debate on banning models, parts, and accessories that constantly keeps the PAC coffers full and professional lobbyists fat and happy. I won't give the organization a dime until Wayne LaPierre is gone.
NRA is definitely not the only game in town, and the more people support alternative organizations the more they will get the message that it's not okay to keep jerking the fear chain to make the money rain.
It would be a shame if NRA disappeared, though. I'd much prefer if they just grew up a bit.
Grow up a bit? You’d be well served to take your own advice.