2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: dafrtknocker on April 15, 2018, 03:00:02 PM
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Was it a attempted break-in or somebody going to the wrong house after a few drinks.
http://www.staradvertiser.com/2018/04/15/breaking-news/man-killed-in-ewa-beach-shooting/
http://www.khon2.com/news/local-news/man-arrested-for-murder-in-ewa-beach-shooting/1123118802
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Dont know yet, what does suck for the shooter "trying to open the door". Which means door was still closed. Need more details.
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Post on facebook says it was a drunk Soldier going to the wrong house. Supposedly a good Soldier.
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Whats up with all the people jumping to conclusions on facebook? It's crazy. It's like people just have to instantly start blaming and ranting instead of waiting for facts. NRA does it right by waiting for facts to come out before making a statement.
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(https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.3459997.1523559025!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620_330/image.jpg)
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Whats up with all the people jumping to conclusions on facebook? It's crazy. It's like people just have to instantly start blaming and ranting instead of waiting for facts. NRA does it right by waiting for facts to come out before making a statement.
All the time!
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Could be worst jumping. At least they all support the homeowner and assume it was a robbery. That shows how bad hawaii has gotten with crime.
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KHNL said a man was shot when he “tried to enter a home in Ewa Beach”... then you hear that it was at three in the morning, but they quickly cut to a neighbor talking about how scary it was that a shooting occurred and how her kids aren’t safe anymore. I don’t care for the spin the news is putting on it before the facts are even out.
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You can never believe everything you see or hear on the news. I hope it was a break in, and not a mix up of someone going home drunk.
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Looking at the news video, those homes all look the same, At almost 4:00AM, it would be easy to make a mistake -- booze or no booze.
(https://i.imgur.com/hUx0BYt.jpg)
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Whats up with all the people jumping to conclusions on facebook?
Well. it IS Facef*ck, what would you expect from airheads?
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Shooter was identified. http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/37960422/homicide-detectives-investigating-shooting-death-in-ewa-beach.
No criminal record in Hawaii.
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I always test the Mrs. with situations and videos. Her first response was "why did he shoot if the door was still secured?".
I hope we all learn from this. Everyone should have a plan for all types of situations. But plan on that plan failing and adapt.
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Wait for more reliable info before polling the web jury.
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:shaka:
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What ever happened to the last guy that shot someone in their yard or property. Some how I think it was out west.
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What ever happened to the last guy that shot someone in their yard or property. Some how I think it was out west.
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Approximately when was that?
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What ever happened to the last guy that shot someone in their yard or property. Some how I think it was out west.
I was wondering the exact same thing. I believe you're referring to the one where owner shot a masked man in the back? Is there a way to follow these cases?
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Is this the one you're thinking of?
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/37150095/legal-expert-explains-self-defense-law-after-ewa-beach-homeowner-shoots-alleged-trespasser
Also I hope this one he didn't shoot through a closed door but waiting for the facts.
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I'll see if I can dig up current info.
Kinda low priority now Tho...
Kauai is the big priority now.
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You can never believe everything you see or hear on the news. I hope it was a break in, and not a mix up of someone going home drunk.
What I do know is that it was a CPO Submariner stationed out of Pearl. From what i understand it was an incredibly sad accident that resulted in a shipmate losing their life.
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Navy identifies man fatally shot in Ewa Beach as chief petty officer
http://www.staradvertiser.com/2018/04/17/breaking-news/navy-identifies-man-fatally-shot-in-ewa-beach-as-chief-petty-officer/
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Not looking good for the homeowner, unless the Sailor was trying to break the door down and making death threats. It has potential for a manslaughter case or at the very least a very costly civil suit.
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Is this the one you're thinking of?
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/37150095/legal-expert-explains-self-defense-law-after-ewa-beach-homeowner-shoots-alleged-trespasser
Also I hope this one he didn't shoot through a closed door but waiting for the facts.
Yes, that is the one I was thinking about.
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Not looking good for the homeowner, unless the Sailor was trying to break the door down and making death threats. It has potential for a manslaughter case or at the very least a very costly civil suit.
I don't think it matters if he was trying to break the door down. The homeowner wasn't actually threatened in any way.
I was specifically told by HPD that I had to be threatened even with the intruder inside of my house.
I think this would be getting a different reaction if the CPO shot the local through the door. Roles reversed.
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Looks like the homeowner shot through the door by the news article and pics of the door. Only reasonable reason I can see for shooting through the door is if you're trapped with no cover and being shot at through the door.
http://www.khon2.com/news/local-news/man-arrested-for-murder-in-ewa-beach-shooting/1123118802
Makes a good case for encouraging additional firearms and self-defense scenario training. I'm not sure what weapon was used, but no training is required to get a rifle and shotgun. Minimal training is required to purchase a pistol. Problems like this is one of the reasons people believe guns aren't good for self-defense and they have a legitimate concern.
Firearms community can help to prevent things like this by encouraging training, having self-defense seminars, and by including things like this in basic pistol courses.
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This is why training is important, even watching videos since we have no classes here can help.
I saw a hole in the door, and no signs of a breach or trying to breach. As in the wood frame and door itself had no damage to it.
But it's all how the homeowner articulates why he shot. If he heard a threat from the CPO and he said "I have a gun, open the door or I'll shoot you", then maybe. But odds are not the case, unless there is a voice recording. Because 1) The CPO lived there 2) Has no criminal record 3) Was intoxicated 4) No signs of damage to the door
So not looking good.
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I don't think it matters if he was trying to break the door down. The homeowner wasn't actually threatened in any way.
I was specifically told by HPD that I had to be threatened even with the intruder inside of my house.
Probably doesn't meet the law and not recommended in a self-defense situation, should instead attempt to flee if possible or wait till they get through as using a gun for self-defense is the last option.
However a jury would be more likely to side with the homeowner in that case than just shooting through a secured door. And a reasonable gun owner isn't trained to police standards, so you have to give some leeway. It's also difficult for most people to make good shots under extreme stress on a person charging at you, so shooting at someone breaking down a door and making death threats may seem reasonable.
Didn't happen in this case, but for future reference.
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Looks like the homeowner shot through the door by the news article and pics of the door. Only reasonable reason I can see for shooting through the door is if you're trapped with no cover and being shot at through the door.
http://www.khon2.com/news/local-news/man-arrested-for-murder-in-ewa-beach-shooting/1123118802
Makes a good case for encouraging additional firearms and self-defense scenario training. I'm not sure what weapon was used, but no training is required to get a rifle and shotgun. Minimal training is required to purchase a pistol. Problems like this is one of the reasons people believe guns aren't good for self-defense and they have a legitimate concern.
Firearms community can help to prevent things like this by encouraging training, having self-defense seminars, and by including things like this in basic pistol courses.
Based on your suggestion, both HRA and HDF could offer classroom self-defense seminars that focus on the aspects on the various scenarios when citizens are within their right to utilize a firearm for self-defense with respect to Hawaii laws. They could conduct them on their respective range days with special guest speakers from the attorney general's office and HPD.
I am confident you will have a packed audience at every event, which you could piggy back your own 2a presentations of support.
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There's going to be seminars on these topics at the NRA Annual Meeting I'm attending next month. One of the reasons for attending conferences like these. I could see if they could come down and put on seminars at the gun show in the future.
Refuse to Be a Victim: Crime Prevention Strategies
http://s15.a2zinc.net/clients/NRA/nraam2018/public/SessionDetails.aspx?FromPage=Sessions.aspx&SessionID=1059&SessionDateID=45
Armed Citizen: How to Interact With Law Enforcement
http://s15.a2zinc.net/clients/NRA/nraam2018/public/SessionDetails.aspx?FromPage=Sessions.aspx&SessionID=1062&SessionDateID=45
Concealed Carry Fundamentals
http://s15.a2zinc.net/clients/NRA/nraam2018/public/SessionDetails.aspx?FromPage=Sessions.aspx&SessionID=1061&SessionDateID=45
Advanced Concealed Carry Fundamentals
http://s15.a2zinc.net/clients/NRA/nraam2018/public/SessionDetails.aspx?FromPage=Sessions.aspx&SessionID=1069&SessionDateID=45
Survival Mindset: Are You Prepared?
http://s15.a2zinc.net/clients/NRA/nraam2018/public/SessionDetails.aspx?FromPage=Sessions.aspx&SessionID=1064&SessionDateID=45
Sheepdogs! The Bulletproof Mind for the Armed Citizen
http://s15.a2zinc.net/clients/NRA/nraam2018/public/SessionDetails.aspx?FromPage=Sessions.aspx&SessionID=1066&SessionDateID=45
Fourteen Factors Impacting Your Shooting Performance Under Duress
http://s15.a2zinc.net/clients/NRA/nraam2018/public/SessionDetails.aspx?FromPage=Sessions.aspx&SessionID=1075&SessionDateID=46
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Not good for the home owner.
On the other hand, look how costly it is to convict a real scumbag.
I doubt if the state is going to prosecute, just because it would be really hard to convince a jury that the home owner was NOT fearful of death or injury.
:popcorn:
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With what limited information we have, its definitely a bad shoot. However, we do not have all the information, and probably never will.
I feel terribly for the victim, and utter disgust towards the shooter. If I were a juror, the only justification I'd accept for shooting through that door would be someone else shooting through on the other side at you. I dont care if they had a meat cleaver and were slashing it on the door and making holes in it. Shoot the guy when he breaks the door down and gets inside (you have a gun and the advantage of surprise at that point, right?). Even if your family is inside and you feel threatened, you arent threatened until the guy is actually inside regardless of your "feels". I'd be very interested to know if/when the shooter called 911.
Getting a conviction is a whole different story regardless of who is right or wrong.
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I heard on this morning's news that the shooter was also arrested for a firearm possession violation meaning that the firearm was not registered or that the shooter did not have a permit for the firearm that was used.
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Based on your suggestion, both HRA and HDF could offer classroom self-defense seminars that focus on the aspects on the various scenarios when citizens are within their right to utilize a firearm for self-defense with respect to Hawaii laws. They could conduct them on their respective range days with special guest speakers from the attorney general's office and HPD.
I am confident you will have a packed audience at every event, which you could piggy back your own 2a presentations of support.
LIFE includes an hour law portion that covers use of deadly force and we go over a decent amount of scenarios to really stress the "under immediate threat/danger of _______". It's an easy thing to cover when students are forced to sit and listen in order to get an affidavit, it's another thing entirely to get people that already own firearms but don't know dick about the law to come and get educated.
I'd be more than happy to cover this topic at HRA/LIFE funshoots that I attend every month if there are people that want to learn, but last I heard the HRA is useless or something.
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You're less likely to be convicted of manslaughter of you can show that you have received the training.
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You're less likely to be convicted of manslaughter of you can show that you have received the training.
There's two sides to it. With training, you're less likely to get into a bad situation. However if you do something wrong, then you shouldve known better.
Training is needed, along with periodic refresher training.
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You're less likely to be convicted of manslaughter of you can show that you have received the training.
Who said or teaches that? Or that’s just what you think?
ETA - If that’s just your opinion, then you’re spreading bad information.
What training? Knowledge of laws? Shooting training?
It’s also one thing to have sat through training and another to put that training to “use”, especially in a stressful situation.
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There's two sides to it. With training, you're less likely to get into a bad situation. However if you do something wrong, then you shouldve known better.
Training is needed, along with periodic refresher training.
I have always wondered about all those IG shooters (Knockoutlights, Truxodous, Gatman, etc...). The other persons attorney would probably submit video of their sub-second IWB draw as evidence.
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Jesus, you guys are taking me too literal. What I said was that you’re less likely. I was referencing Drak’s Post.
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Jesus, you guys are taking me too literal. What I said was that you’re less likely. I was referencing Drak’s Post.
I was just asking if you were expressing your opinions on the matter? Or about info and/or studies like:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3518334/
Or those segments at the end of Best Defense where they discuss various situations and stress importance of knowing laws, being able to communicate why use of deadly force was necessary, etc.
If it’s the latter, I would tend to agree that knowledge would help you to avoid being convicted in a case of justified use of self defense.
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Harvey Gerwig, president of the Hawaii Rifle Association, said when it comes to using deadly force for self-defense, “there is virtually no protection of property (allowed) in the state of Hawaii.”
http://www.staradvertiser.com/2018/04/19/hawaii-news/legality-uncertain-in-navy-officers-shooting/?HSA=49db591941214b3312fd2ae33b6e52766b309e1d
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Harvey Gerwig, president of the Hawaii Rifle Association, said when it comes to using deadly force for self-defense, “there is virtually no protection of property (allowed) in the state of Hawaii.”
http://www.staradvertiser.com/2018/04/19/hawaii-news/legality-uncertain-in-navy-officers-shooting/?HSA=49db591941214b3312fd2ae33b6e52766b309e1d
That is correct.
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There's two sides to it. With training, you're less likely to get into a bad situation. However if you do something wrong, then you shouldve known better.
Training is needed, along with periodic refresher training.
Training... Get as much as you possibly can
Document none of it.
That's conversation I've had with LEO from the mainland. The more training you have, the better for any prosecuting attorney to show you had training not to shoot and it wasn't just panic and luck for 2 in the chest and face get the rest (to quote the Dali Lama).
Also never ever use handloads as a self defense round. A good prosecutor can say you had (malicious) intent to kill not defend yourself.
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Also never ever use handloads as a self defense round. A good prosecutor can say you had (malicious) intent to kill not defend yourself.
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Had this ever been proven? I hear it a lot but many have also said it has never affected an outcome.
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Can you provide links that prove that reloads can affect a SD shoot outcome? I have heard it tons of time online. I have also heard it had never come into play.
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Can you provide links that prove that reloads can affect a SD shoot outcome? I have heard it tons of time online. I have also heard it had never come into play.
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There was a case in AZ against a hiker who shot & killed an unarmed man who was threatening bodily harm after the hiker fired a shot into the ground to scare off the attacker's two dogs running at him.
While the ammo wasn't the nail in the prosecution's case, the prosecutor used both the 10MM caliber and hollow point ammo as factors against him. The 10MM was characterized as "more powerful than what local Cops carry for self defense," and the hand loads as "created to cause more trauma and to kill compared to factory SD loads."
If the prosecutor can get the jury to see you as someone just aching to use his gun on someone, it works against you. The defense attorney can easily defuse those arguments (same gun the Cops carry, same type ammo, etc.), but it's up to the lawyer doing their job. Just more smoke the prosecutor can blow in the faces of the jury to use emotion versus facts.
That hiker was initially found guilty, but the conviction was overturned on appeal. Nothing to do with the gun or ammo, but the trial judge prohibited testimony that the attacker had a violent past.
It comes down to choice and preference. If you trust hand loads more than factory, use them. Just be prepared to be accused of exceeding factory ammo "lethality" standards. Aya says there is also a case where the attacker testified he was too far from the defender to be a threat. GSR is one test they use to determine distance at which a shot was fired. Even if the Cops have more rounds in your gun or at your home they can test, they will use factory ammo that they think closely matches yours. That could be the difference between a forensic witness saying you fired at 6-8 feet versus 16 feet away. An attacker approaching without a firearm might be considered a non-threat at 16 feet.
Here are some good points to consider -- not to base self defense choices on as much as what to expect if you ever have to defend your actions in court.
9 ways your firearm can be attacked in court
http://www.secondcalldefense.org/firearm-attacked-court
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Can you provide links that prove that reloads can affect a SD shoot outcome? I have heard it tons of time online. I have also heard it had never come into play.
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from my post about 1 year ago on another forum-
Someone will always ask, “show me a case where someone went to jail”.
Well, I do not have a case like that, but I will relate this personal cautionary tale.
Back in 19xx there was an infamous double-murder case here. At that time I had a modest ammunition manufacturing operation running and my customers were mostly LEO and competition shooters.
I was contacted by a prominent defense attorney who was representing the defendant.
He asked me to be an expert witness by examining the projectile recovered from the scene to see if I could identify what caliber it was.
He was trying to dispute the claim by the prosecutor that the weapon used in the shooting was a 357 magnum, thereby discrediting a key piece of evidence. He was assuming that I could testify that the projectile was the same as a 38 special projectile thus discrediting the 357 magnum theory. The 357 pistol was never recovered but the defendant had registered a sw 357 under his name.
Upon examining the projectile it was a 158 gr Jacketed soft point.
Now 20 something years ago, there was nobody around town selling 38-158 JSP.
In fact I could not find any factory 38-158 JSP from any source. (there is cheap foreign stuff being imported nowadays though)
There was however plenty of 357-158 JSP being sold pretty cheap at all the local shops.
When I presented my observations and conclusion to the defense team, they hurriedly thanked me and dismissed me. I did not fit their narrative.
I suppose the point I’m trying to make is that attorneys are not dummies. They will poke around at any angle you can dream of to prove their case, be it criminal or civil. This is why I load my pistol with the same factory ammo that the local police are issued. If something unfortunate happens, I do NOT want to be painted as being a mad scientist concocting evil killer bullets in my reloading laboratory.
addendum-
I would also like to add that while it is unlikely that you will be charged with a crime for a righteous shooting, suppose the perp survives and is left with a crippling injury?
Sure he may serve some time after he gets out of the hospital, but think about how much free time he has to contemplate getting even via a civil lawsuit.
In a civil case, all it takes is a preponderance of evidence to prevail. Don't think for a second that a sharp attorney is going to overlook every aspect of the case, including the ammunition used.
Monetary awards can be divided due to the degree of blame. The total judgement could be millions if the perp is crippled for life.
The judge may split the blame between you and the perp which could still leave you liable for millions.
All it takes is a little bit of evidence to tip the balance in civil suits.
I am not an attorney.
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addendum-
I would also like to add that while it is unlikely that you will be charged with a crime for a righteous shooting, suppose the perp survives and is left with a crippling injury?
Sure he may serve some time after he gets out of the hospital, but think about how much free time he has to contemplate getting even via a civil lawsuit.
In a civil case, all it takes is a preponderance of evidence to prevail. Don't think for a second that a sharp attorney is going to overlook every aspect of the case, including the ammunition used.
Monetary awards can be divided due to the degree of blame. The total judgement could be millions if the perp is crippled for life.
The judge may split the blame between you and the perp which could still leave you liable for millions.
All it takes is a little bit of evidence to tip the balance in civil suits.
I am not an attorney.
I suppose that is why 2 retired LEOs I know, one Federal and one HPD, told me if I have to shoot someone in self defense, make sure I kill them. From experience, they told me officers who shot someone who survived the shooting had far more problems than those who shot and killed the perp. One advantage I know is there will likely be only one side to tell the story in a home invasion or home defense situation.
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Another thing is, posted signs like “I don’t call 911” or “Tresspassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again” etc., are far worse than having any kind of “killer” handloads. Yet I see a lot of signs like these round where I live. If those people ever had to shoot someone, the prosecuting attorney will have a field day using that against them. The same thing applies to “Beware of Dog” signs if your dog bites someone. Attorneys have used that to say the owner knew the dog was dangerous by posting that sign.
This is the sign I have on my gate.
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I suppose that is why 2 retired LEOs I know, one Federal and one HPD, told me if I have to shoot someone in self defense, make sure I kill them. From experience, they told me officers who shot someone who survived the shooting had far more problems than those who shot and killed the perp. One advantage I know is there will likely be only one side to tell the story in a home invasion or home defense situation.
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I don't think that strategy should be discussed on a public forum.
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I don't think that strategy should be discussed on a public forum.
I also don't think it is accurate advice either. I mean it makes sense on a certain level but I would not say it is wise advice at all because you cannot justify the extra round because you were afraid of getting sued.
I think the best advice is what they teach cops. You shoot to stop the threat.
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Stopping the threat is what you tell the cops. Sometimes it may take a head shot to do it. I have been to Front Sight four times for training. They teach you to put a minimum of two shots center mass. Every once in awhile the instructors call for a follow up head shot because the two shots center mass did not stop the threat.
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The same thing applies to “Beware of Dog” signs if your dog bites someone. Attorneys have used that to say the owner knew the dog was dangerous by posting that sign.
My attorney, who I trust, told me to put up a "Beware of Dog" sign and it would be beneficial to me if my dogs did injure someone trespassing on my property. That was fourteen years ago.
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I don't want to steer this off topic, but dog signs can go both ways. It is recommended to put a No Tresspassing or Do Not Enter sign instead. Your property should be fenced.
https://iheartdogs.com/beware-of-dog-signs-precaution-or-liability/
The sign on my gate says Go Away and Do Not Enter written in Japanese, more as a joke for my friends, as none of them on the Big Island can read Japanese.
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My attorney, who I trust, told me to put up a "Beware of Dog" sign and it would be beneficial to me if my dogs did injure someone trespassing on my property. That was fourteen years ago.
I've met your dogs and they are super sweet. Maybe death by face licking? ;D
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Sorry, back on topic.
I haven't seen any further information. Last I read/heard was that the homeowner shot through a closed door. I of course wasn't there, but given the information so far, but first thought was warning shot. Could be any number of things, but that was my first impression. If there's more to the story, so be it, but I suspect we'll never find out what truly happened.
Sad situation overall.
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On khon tv news there was a picture of a patched up hole in the door...not a good thing.
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Re. Dog?
Aieahound met my dog and said the dog would lick any intruder to death.
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On khon tv news there was a picture of a patched up hole in the door...not a good thing
Looked high up on the door. Probably got hit in the head.
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Yeah, I saw the pic of the patched hole. I also don't recall seeing a section of glass viewing window in the door either (but there very well may have been).
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Any number of things could have happened. Some how I don't think the guy was quietly trying to get through the door... Tragic, but I cannot blame the homeowner at all, with the limited current evidence that was given.
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http://www.secondcalldefense.org/firearm-attacked-court
Good read, thanks Flapp.
But this is why how you articulate everything is very important. And why remaining silent is the best course of action until you speak to an attorney.
I've been told from a very reliable source that even Cerakoting a gun comes into question. "Why did you paint this gun? Was your intent to make it look like a toy?".
Unfortunately, this is the world we live in now. The criminal who isn't supposed to be in your home has more rights than the homeowner.
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Losing a trial because of reloading rounds for self defense is way overblown as is at the bottom of the priority list. Training, attitude, discipline, and knowledge are at the top. I'm sure the person in this case was lacking in those areas.
I would discourage reloads for other reasons such as reliability.
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Any number of things could have happened. Some how I don't think the guy was quietly trying to get through the door... Tragic, but I cannot blame the homeowner at all, with the limited current evidence that was given.
Yeah, I agree that any number of things could have happened. I wasn't jumping to conclusions, but was just sharing my initial thoughts. I am hoping that there's a rational explanation that explains what happened. From the limited information given (I wouldn't even call what I've seen evidence), I personally don't see things going well for the homeowner.
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Losing a trial because of reloading rounds for self defense is way overblown as is at the bottom of the priority list. Training, attitude, discipline, and knowledge are at the top. I'm sure the person in this case was lacking in those areas.
I would discourage reloads for other reasons such as reliability.
The "home rolled" SD rounds and firearm modifications thing comes up all the time.
I discussed this with one of my best friends many times. He's a former prosecutor and also somewhat gun enthusiast. I've also discussed this with his attorney friends, many who still work on that side of the system. They all agree that if the element is legal, it should not have any bearing. Yes, a prosecutor could try to use that to sway the jury, but they all mentioned that a good defense attorney should be able to handle that. The main point was that it comes down to if the use of deadly force is justified.
Again, that's not to say that such things could not be used against you in the court of law, or in a civil suit, etc. Just that it seems like this is another one of those cases where perpetuation of myth over reality.
Personally, I don't alter the triggers on any gun that I might use for defense. However, that's more not wanting to go down that rabbit's hole of seemingly endless mods to my firearms than anything else.
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The "home rolled" SD rounds and firearm modifications thing comes up all the time.
I discussed this with one of my best friends many times. He's a former prosecutor and also somewhat gun enthusiast. I've also discussed this with his attorney friends, many who still work on that side of the system. They all agree that if the element is legal, it should not have any bearing. Yes, a prosecutor could try to use that to sway the jury, but they all mentioned that a good defense attorney should be able to handle that. The main point was that it comes down to if the use of deadly force is justified.
Again, that's not to say that such things could not be used against you in the court of law, or in a civil suit, etc. Just that it seems like this is another one of those cases where perpetuation of myth over reality.
Personally, I don't alter the triggers on any gun that I might use for defense. However, that's more not wanting to go down that rabbit's hole of seemingly endless mods to my firearms than anything else.
It's only a matter of time "why did you mod all your other guns, but the one used in the shooting? Was your intent to use this 1 only for deadly intentions?"
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It's only a matter of time "why did you mod all your other guns, but the one used in the shooting? Was your intent to use this 1 only for deadly intentions?"
I only have modded the trigger on my Glock 34 and pretty much only use that for competition.
I could envision that line of questioning coming up in a given trial. That said, just need to prepare and respond accordingly. Not much different than training/preparing for a self-defense situation. You can't control how others will act, you can only control how you react/respond.
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Yeah, I agree that any number of things could have happened. I wasn't jumping to conclusions, but was just sharing my initial thoughts. I am hoping that there's a rational explanation that explains what happened. From the limited information given (I wouldn't even call what I've seen evidence), I personally don't see things going well for the homeowner.
Maybe not bad for the homeowner. I've read that the person was "released pending further investigation" (meaning the homeowner was not actually charged?)
Any reasonable person would believe serious or deadly bodily injury may occur, if someone is trying to kick down your door at 3am.
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It's only a matter of time "why did you mod all your other guns, but the one used in the shooting? Was your intent to use this 1 only for deadly intentions?"
Modofied AR with You're F*cked" on the dust cover did not seem to expose that cop in AZ that executed the unarmed guy to added jeopardy.
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Maybe not bad for the homeowner. I've read that the person was "released pending further investigation" (meaning the homeowner was not actually charged?)
Any reasonable person would believe serious or deadly bodily injury may occur, if someone is trying to kick down your door at 3am.
Yeah, from what I understand he was released without charges, but pending further investigation. And I am not meaning that I am expecting things to go bad for the homeowner. Just that what information was made available, my personal opinion (which counts for pretty much nothing) is that the situations ranges from "someone's got some explaining to do" at the minimum.
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Modofied AR with You're F*cked" on the dust cover did not seem to expose that cop in AZ that executed the unarmed guy to added jeopardy.
The dust cover didn't help. Especially when the pic of the rifle used, had the cover down. What probably did help the most was his body cam. He gave multiple commands and the guy reached down at his waistband multiple times also. So take the body cam away, his defense attorneys job isn't any easier with that dust cover.
Some of us don't have audio/visual cams set up.
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Interesting topic. I believe having a sign posted around your house with no trespassing, lights around dark entry points, beware dogs on property, lock gates, cameras with house alarms signs posted would help with your defense case of intruder trying to entering you property without permission. I would tell attorney that I did what I can to prevent it. Shooting intruder you better justify that you life and family member is in great danger and last resort. Call 911 if time permits or have someone call. For my dc I use factory hollow point rounds to only stop the threat. Use similar semi pistol and caliber that I mostly train and comfortable with only 10 rounds or less. No trigger mod, just light factory trigger. I wouldn’t be that guy setting off the round without not knowing what was behind the door. Move back take cover, protect your family from harm. That’s just me. For all the people that know me I heavily mod all my firearms except the dc.
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Modofied AR with You're F*cked" on the dust cover did not seem to expose that cop in AZ that executed the unarmed guy to added jeopardy.
I think that is because the video was bad enough.
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Case isn't over yet, charged with manslaughter. I'd like to see what evidence they have and what happened. Did he have a reasonable fear for his life? Did he lack sufficient training?
Grand jury returns manslaughter indictment in Ewa Beach front door shooting
http://www.staradvertiser.com/2018/06/05/breaking-news/grand-jury-returns-manslaughter-indictment-in-ewa-beach-front-door-shooting/
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Case isn't over yet, charged with manslaughter. I'd like to see what evidence they have and what happened. Did he have a reasonable fear for his life? Did he lack sufficient training?
Grand jury returns manslaughter indictment in Ewa Beach front door shooting
http://www.staradvertiser.com/2018/06/05/breaking-news/grand-jury-returns-manslaughter-indictment-in-ewa-beach-front-door-shooting/
there was a locked door between them, and the victim was outside his house
no reason for deadly force in this case
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there was a locked door between them, and the victim was outside his house
no reason for deadly force in this case
Agree 100%
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This guy is screwed, plus the unregistered firearm violation. I wonder what his argument will be?
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This guy is screwed, plus the unregistered firearm violation. I wonder what his argument will be?
He can claim the gun went off accidentally. It was really early in the morning so he was groggy. Scared because someone was pounding on the door making threats. He had the gun pointed at the door incase the person broke through the door. Under extreme stress he accidentally pressed the trigger. Jury could determine it's a reasonable defense. Might get him off a manslaughter charge cause he was prepared to defend himself and unknowingly pressing the trigger was accidental and not reckless.
Still screwed with the firearms charges and a civil suit.
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He can claim the gun went off accidentally. It was really early in the morning so he was groggy. Scared because someone was pounding on the door making threats. He had the gun pointed at the door incase the person broke through the door. Under extreme stress he accidentally pressed the trigger. Jury could determine it's a reasonable defense. Might get him off a manslaughter charge cause he was prepared to defend himself and unknowingly pressing the trigger was accidental and not reckless.
Still screwed with the firearms charges and a civil suit.
Or if he claims the guy was making threatening remarks through the door.
What ever happened to the guy who shot the other guy while he was jumping his fence?
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He can claim the gun went off accidentally. It was really early in the morning so he was groggy. Scared because someone was pounding on the door making threats. He had the gun pointed at the door incase the person broke through the door. Under extreme stress he accidentally pressed the trigger. Jury could determine it's a reasonable defense. Might get him off a manslaughter charge cause he was prepared to defend himself and unknowingly pressing the trigger was accidental and not reckless.
Still screwed with the firearms charges and a civil suit.
Whether or not it's accidental doesn't matter. He's being charged with manslaughter, not murder.
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Whether or not it's accidental doesn't matter. He's being charged with manslaughter, not murder.
It being accidental would play a big part in the defense for manslaughter. For manslaughter, prosecutors have to prove "(a) The person recklessly causes the death of another person". If the homeowner was in genuine fear for his life then aiming a gun at the door would not be a reckless act. If extreme mental stress affected him, then unintentionally pressing the trigger would not be a reckless act. It could be negligent, but not reckless.
A jury would then find it reasonable that he's not guilty of manslaughter. If he was a trained law enforcement officer or self-defense instructor then it could be different because it would be reasonable to assume they are able to handle the stress and follow proper procedures like keeping the gun at the low ready and finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
Note: I'm assuming that this guy didn't have much or any firearms training.
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Was talking story with one of the officers that responded to this incident. Something about the first guys who showed up initially couldn't tell (at least quickly) what happened to the guy since it was a freak thing where the bullet entered through the front of his neck/throat and went down. That it wasn't obvious that he was shot and something about the entry wound not being obvious. Kind of a perfect storm of things that sounded like a freak accident.
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Was talking story with one of the officers that responded to this incident. Something about the first guys who showed up initially couldn't tell (at least quickly) what happened to the guy since it was a freak thing where the bullet entered through the front of his neck/throat and went down. That it wasn't obvious that he was shot and something about the entry wound not being obvious. Kind of a perfect storm of things that sounded like a freak accident.
Booger finger off the trigger
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https://youtu.be/XJTXpItCqFU
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Followup to the shooting. Navy investigated and found the sailor used no force on the door. And it looks like the homeowner had time to move around the house.
He still could have had a genuine fear for his family's safety. Maybe he could have suffered from PTSD as an Army veteran? But this information hurts his case. Very tragic for both sides.
Navy investigation finds no misconduct by sub sailor shot dead
“A reasonable person cannot assume that engaging the doorknob on the door of an incorrect apartment would lead to death from a gun fired on the other side of the door,” the Navy investigation found. “FTC Hasselbrink did not yell, kick, strike the door or act belligerently during this encounter; he merely attempted to open a door.”
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/11/05/hawaii-news/navy-investigation-finds-no-misconduct-by-sub-sailor-shot-dead
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Followup to the shooting. Navy investigated and found the sailor used no force on the door. And it looks like the homeowner had time to move around the house.
He still could have had a genuine fear for his family's safety. Maybe he could have suffered from PTSD as an Army veteran? But this information hurts his case. Very tragic for both sides.
Navy investigation finds no misconduct by sub sailor shot dead
“A reasonable person cannot assume that engaging the doorknob on the door of an incorrect apartment would lead to death from a gun fired on the other side of the door,” the Navy investigation found. “FTC Hasselbrink did not yell, kick, strike the door or act belligerently during this encounter; he merely attempted to open a door.”
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/11/05/hawaii-news/navy-investigation-finds-no-misconduct-by-sub-sailor-shot-dead
I saw vid of the door and didn't see any damage either.