2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: eyeeatingfish on April 22, 2018, 09:09:14 PM
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I think we need a reminder to be civil here on this community. I am not talking about censoring people but we need a little more self control here if for no other reason than the interest of gun rights in Hawaii. I have talked to people about guns and mentioned this forum and in more than one occasion I have gotten a negative responses. They are not anti-gun but because of some of what is said here it gives them a bad image. People being rude mostly but also the criticality of differing opinions. I am not talking about disagreement either, I am talking about snarky, rude, insulting behavior.
This behavior splits us up where we need to be united and it drives people away from here. I used to be much more active but got tired of the behavior of some members and ended up only checking in once in a while. I have seen this from other members too and I think we should strive to avoid it. The common complaint here is that not that many people are willing to get out there and call their representative or show up at a protest when a gun rights issue comes up. So it would make sense that we should try not to alienate people from probably the best local resource in informing and organizing people get out there and take part.
A while back Flapp Jackson sent me a private message filled with insult and informed me that he was blocking me so he could not see my posts anymore as well as that of Aiea Hound. Ostensibly it was for the purpose of time savings for him. Now if he cannot handle opinions and facts he does not like then fine, that is his choice. If Flapp Jackson needs to block himself from seeing posts from AieaHound or myself because he cannot control his behavior then I would rather him do so than drag the discussion into the mud and put a bad face on the gun community.
So how about we try to disagree with a little bit of civility here. Remember that the goal is to get as many people educated and supporting the issue. I don't care if someone supports Bernie Sanders, they are welcome here if they are gun rights supporters. I don't even care if someone here is against guns, as long as they can have an open mind they may learn something and temper their views through a positive exchange. We don't need to eat our own just because they don't espouse a hardcore gun rights view because at the end of the day we need the numbers of active supporters.
So lets try to have a little more self control and disagree politely. Attack the argument, not the person. More education comes from a civil discussion than a flame war.
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I've been confused on what the purpose of this website is. The purpose determines on how the website is run. Currently, it's very open like a boys clubhouse where people can say just about anything they want. If it's meant as a discussion forum for a wide audience, then you need more moderation and rules. If the goal is focused on activism, technical, and gun rights then it has to be further moderated.
Websites like AR15.com tend to be more toward discussion for a wider audience. Technical websites like anandtech (for techies) are heavily moderated where you can't go off topic and you can get suspended easily.
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Every kind of forum will have those who just like to pick fights and argue about things that really don't matter. Some forums will not tolerate that and I have seen several members of the Turbo Diesel Register forum who were long time regular posters permanently booted off for such behavior after only one warning.
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I've been confused on what the purpose of this website is. The purpose determines on how the website is run. Currently, it's very open like a boys clubhouse where people can say just about anything they want. If it's meant as a discussion forum for a wide audience, then you need more moderation and rules. If the goal is focused on activism, technical, and gun rights then it has to be further moderated.
Websites like AR15.com tend to be more toward discussion for a wider audience. Technical websites like anandtech (for techies) are heavily moderated where you can't go off topic and you can get suspended easily.
Not sure what you mean by this. The name of this forum is "2AHawaii.com" Anything political, and the gun topic has become ULTRA political, is VERY DIFFICULT to moderate. Most other sites strictly prohibit any kind of political discussion for this very FACT.
I'd like not to put the smack down on any one's opinions. However, I do agree that certain people do personal attack. That gets moderated, if seen. People have been banned...etc
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I've been confused on what the purpose of this website is. The purpose determines on how the website is run. Currently, it's very open like a boys clubhouse where people can say just about anything they want. If it's meant as a discussion forum for a wide audience, then you need more moderation and rules. If the goal is focused on activism, technical, and gun rights then it has to be further moderated.
Websites like AR15.com tend to be more toward discussion for a wider audience. Technical websites like anandtech (for techies) are heavily moderated where you can't go off topic and you can get suspended easily.
Good points. As I am not the creator of this website I certainly cannot claim what its real purpose is. I just know that it has helped to get me learning about how to become involved in the political process beyond just voting and having discussions with people about gun rights.
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I am not talking about disagreement either, I am talking about snarky, rude, insulting behavior.
You do realize that those judgments on your part ("snarky, rude, insulting") are nothing but your own judgments, and not "facts", right? If I characterized many of your posts as "irrational, illogical, self-contradictory, leftist snowflake whining", would that be a fact or merely my personal judgment?
And you ARE calling for censorship. You can deny it, as you did by writing that you are "not talking about censoring people but..." (as virtually every politician everywhere who wants to ban guns states they "support the Second Amendment, but..."). And that's fine, you can ask for whatever you want. If you want to limit the discussion to various topics and/or various limitations on what kinds of words or types of arguments are allowed, perhaps the owners of the website will agree with you and create an echo chamber that will please you. And maybe that censorship will have the effect that you suspect, the "activism" in Hawaii re these issues will swell to a massive tsunami and overwhelm the legislative, executive and judicial reticence to legally recognize our inherent natural rights. Personally, I suspect you are 100% wrong, but I will gladly never click on this site again, much less write anything, if that were the case.
Why don't you provide us with a list of the people you find "insulting" and maybe they will agree to forgo posting here for one year to see just how effective that strategy is in sparking real change in our legal situation? Or how many years do you think it will take?
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You do realize that those judgments on your part ("snarky, rude, insulting") are nothing but your own judgments, and not "facts", right? If I characterized many of your posts as "irrational, illogical, self-contradictory, leftist snowflake whining", would that be a fact or merely my personal judgment?
And you ARE calling for censorship. You can deny it, as you did by writing that you are "not talking about censoring people but..." (as virtually every politician everywhere who wants to ban guns states they "support the Second Amendment, but..."). And that's fine, you can ask for whatever you want. If you want to limit the discussion to various topics and/or various limitations on what kinds of words or types of arguments are allowed, perhaps the owners of the website will agree with you and create an echo chamber that will please you. And maybe that censorship will have the effect that you suspect, the "activism" in Hawaii re these issues will swell to a massive tsunami and overwhelm the legislative, executive and judicial reticence to legally recognize our inherent natural rights. Personally, I suspect you are 100% wrong, but I will gladly never click on this site again, much less write anything, if that were the case.
Why don't you provide us with a list of the people you find "insulting" and maybe they will agree to forgo posting here for one year to see just how effective that strategy is in sparking real change in our legal situation? Or how many years do you think it will take?
I am not calling for censorship, you are reading too deep into this. Nowhere did I suggest anything but self control. If I called for censorship I would have suggested moderators played a bigger role. Instead I ask people to control themselves, to put the bigger issue ahead of their desire to insult others.
Ok, you wanna dance around this by suggesting that insults are just subjective judgements? So I could call your mother some negative names and just suggest it is your fault for "judging" the comment as rude? There is also a difference between saying that there is a logical fault to an argument and just dismissing an individual as illogical. One fosters dialogue the other shuts it down.
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You do realize that those judgments on your part ("snarky, rude, insulting") are nothing but your own judgments, and not "facts", right? If I characterized many of your posts as "irrational, illogical, self-contradictory, leftist snowflake whining", would that be a fact or merely my personal judgment?
And you ARE calling for censorship. You can deny it, as you did by writing that you are "not talking about censoring people but..." (as virtually every politician everywhere who wants to ban guns states they "support the Second Amendment, but..."). And that's fine, you can ask for whatever you want. If you want to limit the discussion to various topics and/or various limitations on what kinds of words or types of arguments are allowed, perhaps the owners of the website will agree with you and create an echo chamber that will please you. And maybe that censorship will have the effect that you suspect, the "activism" in Hawaii re these issues will swell to a massive tsunami and overwhelm the legislative, executive and judicial reticence to legally recognize our inherent natural rights. Personally, I suspect you are 100% wrong, but I will gladly never click on this site again, much less write anything, if that were the case.
Why don't you provide us with a list of the people you find "insulting" and maybe they will agree to forgo posting here for one year to see just how effective that strategy is in sparking real change in our legal situation? Or how many years do you think it will take?
Lets not get into a argument about this, again, because BOTH sides constantly beg us moderators to censor the other when we allow differing points of view to remain. Then the personal insults ensue when the topic is played out and no one can come to an agreement.
People should do the ADULT thing, and WALK AWAY, agree to disagree, and walk away.
All I know is some, who many complain about to be banned and censored, I have actually seen, in real life, boots on the ground doing SOMETHING to further 2A in Hawaii. And others, who make a lot of noise, preaching to the choir, seem to know a lot about the know, I have never seen nor heard of doing any real life furthering, and heard the excuses, when ask to.
Just Sayin
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Online forums in general often have strange dynamics. This is the only local based board that I'm on. I would have thought that the closer and community oriented boards would be different, but really aren't. Online boards are often filled with many members who are full of awesome information to share with newbies. That's what I value and look for when I search forums. Feedback from those folks can save people in many ways. Time, money, keep them safe, etc. In the end, you're going to have people who want to do their own thing no matter what the rules, community says, etc. Again, being a locally based board, I would have thought that much of the times folks would police themselves, especially since we might run into each other here and there. I've met some awesome folks from this board, but I'll also admit that there are many that I really don't want anything to do with and I haven't even met them yet.
I am part owner of a firearms forum and used to be moderator on another national level board. On the one that I am part owner of now, we have a strict policy on no politics or religion. Any politics has to be DIRECTLY related to 2A issues. The non-sense that goes on with discussion on politics and religion tore the other board apart. This is in NO WAY a criticism of 2AHawaii as I believe the discussion of 2A issues here is important. Just sharing observations of discussions on politics and religion.
I enjoy talking about firearms, trying to help new folks, etc. However, discussion on firearms gets stale after a while as there isn't really anything new very often. Things get rehashed when a newbie comes on board. You'll have those that provide useful feedback, then you'll have the curmudgeons who either shut them out with "not another 9 vs 45 thread" stuff.
Online boards will always have differing opinions. I also see a lot of folks saying a lot that they would NEVER say to someone's face. On another board, we had this one problem member. Was actually a nice guy, but would just get his kicks off of arguing with folks, about anything. He was very good at it too and could often "rope a dope" in arguments and leave them looking stupid. Anyways, he would freely admit that he would often get his teeth pushed in when having discussions in public, so he learned to do it online. I see a lot of that here too.
I don't see things as an issue of moderators. Their board and their choice to run the board the way they see fit. I do see things as an issue of growing up. Don't get along with someone, ignore them. Don't agree with someone, spend a few minutes to try to understand their point and maybe you can learn something. Maybe not, but if you can't agree, go your own way. There are many here that I don't agree with and ignore. A couple in particular come up with all these irrational and illogical conclusions about everything. I've tried to point that out, but nowadays, unless they are saying something that could potentially lead to another member being unsafe, I'll just let them be. Not worth my time.
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Lets not get into a argument about this, again, because BOTH sides constantly beg us moderators to censor the other when we allow differing points of view to remain. Then the personal insults ensue when the topic is played out and no one can come to an agreement.
1) People should do the ADULT thing, and WALK AWAY, agree to disagree, and walk away.
2) All I know is some, who many complain about to be banned and censored, I have actually seen, in real life, boots on the ground doing SOMETHING to further 2A in Hawaii. And others, who make a lot of noise, preaching to the choir, seem to know a lot about the know, I have never seen nor heard of doing any real life furthering, and heard the excuses, when ask to.
Just Sayin
1) Amen to that! :thumbsup:
2) I see that as well. I also see a lot of all talk and no action. A lot of "what does [x group] do for me?" but then no stepping up and actually contributing to try to make things better.
Then you have those that just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Having to be right about everything. I am not on many forums, but I've heard that there are much worse. I've heard that chainsaw, car and camera forums are among the worse. I was thinking of getting into DLSRs and I went to browse one forum and they are much worse that firearms folks.
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I am not calling for censorship, you are reading too deep into this. Nowhere did I suggest anything but self control. If I called for censorship I would have suggested moderators played a bigger role. Instead I ask people to control themselves, to put the bigger issue ahead of their desire to insult others.
Yeah, you don't want "censorship", you just want people to not say what they want to say and you want to call that "self control", rather than "my control". How very convenient for you. You want to dictate what people are "allowed" to write, but you want them to acquiesce in conforming to your "standard" of what is "acceptable" or not. But you don't advocate censorship. You just want everyone to agree with you. Where have we seen that before? Another one of your, pardon me, logically incoherent and false claims.
Ok, you wanna dance around this by suggesting that insults are just subjective judgements? So I could call your mother some negative names and just suggest it is your fault for "judging" the comment as rude?
It wouldn't be my "fault" because I wouldn't call your statement "rude" because that's a judgment that would be pointless for me to make. I know, you don't get it. Obviously.
There is also a difference between saying that there is a logical fault to an argument and just dismissing an individual as illogical. One fosters dialogue the other shuts it down.
Yeah, and your "complaining" and wanting people to exhibit "self-control" is not an attempt to "shut down" dialogue, right? Just "certain kinds" of dialogue that you find "unacceptable" for whatever variety of "reasons" you offer to justify ending such dialogue. You want to "foster dialogue" as long as it conforms to your standard of "appropriate" dialog. You can't make this stuff up.
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Lets not get into a argument about this, again, because BOTH sides constantly beg us moderators to censor the other when we allow differing points of view to remain. Then the personal insults ensue when the topic is played out and no one can come to an agreement.
I've never asked, much less "begged" a moderator to ever censor any statement on this site. I abhor censorship in any form and believe that no purpose is served by it other than to move the goal posts ever further and further toward crimethink. Of course the owners of this site are free to institute any policies they like.
I can only imagine the "rules" if the goal is to "come to an agreement". That's perfectly Orwellian. Be sure to let me know what the agreements are you reach with Everytown for Gun Safety, Giffords, The Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, etc..
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What I've learned from other forums is to never name call, just present facts and my POV/opinion. Especially here because we may bump into each other vs. a mainland forum (AR15.com or bodybuilding.com, etc...) where you won't run into other members.
When I first posted on bodybuilding.com, there's a lot of "bro science" and I would get so frustrated at how stupid people are. It would bother me for days and I would spend a lot of time proving them wrong, but it wouldn't change their thinking. So after a few weeks, I learned "no worry, beef curry". All you can do is present info and let the other person decide.
There's a study I read that when arguing a point, the more "facts" that are presented to the other that proves they're wrong, the more they're going to disbelieve you. The study was started because how liberals won't accept data/stats (firearm related).
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Pretty sure the 3 purposes of this forum is to:
1. Troll
2. Sell shit
3. Buy shit
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I've never asked, much less "begged" a moderator to ever censor any statement on this site. I abhor censorship in any form and believe that no purpose is served by it other than to move the goal posts ever further and further toward crimethink. Of course the owners of this site are free to institute any policies they like.
I can only imagine the "rules" if the goal is to "come to an agreement". That's perfectly Orwellian. Be sure to let me know what the agreements are you reach with Everytown for Gun Safety, Giffords, The Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, etc..
1) I never mentioned punaperson
2) I never said people are required to come to an agreement
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Good points. As I am not the creator of this website I certainly cannot claim what its real purpose is. I just know that it has helped to get me learning about how to become involved in the political process beyond just voting and having discussions with people about gun rights.
Do you actually think there is a Political process in Hawaii?
There is a PARTY process. There is only one party and
point of view, any others have been destroyed or banned.
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The concept of free speech is great as an individual. However there is always rules and a level of moderation when working in groups. Moderation can help with encouraging more discussion, getting more people involved, and allow for different points of view. Also keeps things productive. Moderation doesn't necessarily mean censorship.
Ever had to run a meeting with two opposing sides with no rules? You could allow everyone to have absolute free speech and no rules but everything would turn into chaos for many reasons.
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Just like the road maintenance meetings in most subdivisions in Puna, where the association hires 2 cops to maintain order.
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It's probably better to not engage with someone who is unable to contemplate opposing views. Their ego reacts like it is an attack which leads to ill will. Unfortunately, this level of polarization seems to be the norm. I guess that's "why can't we all just get long".
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Most forums are a joke when it comes to reasonable discussion, often due to the lack of interpersonal cues, but mostly due to unreasonable cyber courage. The forums that are successful are those that are moderated well, with members who are able to communicate while maintaining a healthy dose of reasonableness as if communicating face to face.
Communicating well on the www. doesn't mean being able to use a lot of big words tied into sentences, tied into paragraphs Nor does it mean cherry picking stats or posting links to stories, that is nowhere near an accurate representation of a whole. It becomes a frivolous effort nowhere near resembling a reasonable debate and this is where this forum resides.
So as Drakiir mentions
Troll, sell shit, buy shit. I like to keep an eye on the classifieds but like to throw a bone here and there.
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Lets not get into a argument about this, again, because BOTH sides constantly beg us moderators to censor the other when we allow differing points of view to remain. Then the personal insults ensue when the topic is played out and no one can come to an agreement.
People should do the ADULT thing, and WALK AWAY, agree to disagree, and walk away.
All I know is some, who many complain about to be banned and censored, I have actually seen, in real life, boots on the ground doing SOMETHING to further 2A in Hawaii. And others, who make a lot of noise, preaching to the choir, seem to know a lot about the know, I have never seen nor heard of doing any real life furthering, and heard the excuses, when ask to.
Just Sayin
exactly....
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What’s the genera rule? If you have to reply more than 2 or 3 times, you should walk away.
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People should do the ADULT thing, and WALK AWAY, agree to disagree, and walk away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPY5P0TaC4k
All jokes aside you and the rest of the moderators need to come to a decision about what you are trying to accomplish here. If it's a boys club with shit smeared all over the walls then great job. If it's advocating for 2A rights and trying to bring people into the community then it should be obvious to everyone with a minimum third grade education that the current moderation policies are highly counterproductive. 2Ahawaii in its current state drives away normal people and rewards trolls for their hostility, effectively giving them a soap box as long as their views meet some unspoken right wing litmus test. You can justify it by "free speech" etc but it's like trying to have a business meeting with spoiled angry children throwing temper tantrums.
We should make a poll to decide what the goals of this site are, and then have another one to decide what kind of moderation policy would be most effective in achieving those goals. In other word have an actual plan
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Reminds me of my BT company commander who we called Captain Steroids. Big guy with a high voice complaining to us about too much swearing in the barracks.
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don't feed the trolls
if you feed them, they grow bigger and keep trolling
negative posts don't bother me. I don't let those posts bother me.
there are those on this forum that I don't agree with on some issues. if they want to argue about it, I just don't respond.
its like any other thing in life: you can't control what others do or say or believe. the only thing you can control is how you react.
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What’s the genera rule? If you have to reply more than 2 or 3 times, you should walk away.
And you realize that no one else is posting in the thread.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPY5P0TaC4k
All jokes aside you and the rest of the moderators need to come to a decision about what you are trying to accomplish here. If it's a boys club with shit smeared all over the walls then great job. If it's advocating for 2A rights and trying to bring people into the community then it should be obvious to everyone with a minimum third grade education that the current moderation policies are highly counterproductive. 2Ahawaii in its current state drives away normal people and rewards trolls for their hostility, effectively giving them a soap box as long as their views meet some unspoken right wing litmus test. You can justify it by "free speech" etc but it's like trying to have a business meeting with spoiled angry children throwing temper tantrums.
We should make a poll to decide what the goals of this site are, and then have another one to decide what kind of moderation policy would be most effective in achieving those goals. In other word have an actual plan
or you could make your own site and set the rules...
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The concept of free speech is great as an individual. However there is always rules and a level of moderation when working in groups. Moderation can help with encouraging more discussion, getting more people involved, and allow for different points of view. Also keeps things productive. Moderation doesn't necessarily mean censorship.
Ever had to run a meeting with two opposing sides with no rules? You could allow everyone to have absolute free speech and no rules but everything would turn into chaos for many reasons.
I actually have done such a meeting. I ran it, and for the most part got something done. It was tough.
most people are not too smart, but when it costs them money they start to pay attention.
I posted Liens against several properties. They payed eventually.
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or you could make your own site and set the rules...
Indeed, as those with "right wing" ideas are apparently anathema to him It is a truth that 2A supporters tend to be more conservative and typically seen as enemies to the left.
No shock that sort of outlook predominates here. This is NOT "Mother Stoned" or whatever, after all. You are not going to change members fundamental political outlook.
I say deal with reality, or as you suggest, go create your own left-wing 2A site equivalent. I believe there are some antifart types that imagine themselves as combat troops that would join in.
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I've been confused on what the purpose of this website is. The purpose determines on how the website is run. Currently, it's very open like a boys clubhouse where people can say just about anything they want. If it's meant as a discussion forum for a wide audience, then you need more moderation and rules. If the goal is focused on activism, technical, and gun rights then it has to be further moderated.
Websites like AR15.com tend to be more toward discussion for a wider audience. Technical websites like anandtech (for techies) are heavily moderated where you can't go off topic and you can get suspended easily.
I suspect there is a lot of venting here due to our general feeling of being stigmatized by the overwhelming liberal bent of state gubmint, and the mindless liberal obeisance of too many citizens. I posted the comment from a liberal in my local rag that wanted to bury firearm owners in a landfill. This is the environment we deal with.
Everything about preserving our 2A rights is framed by the democrat controlled gubmint. No way to get around that. We are not after their rights, but they sure as hell are looking for ways to deprive us of ours.
Makes for a polarized community. That at least one member here has engaged in what i would call "agent provocateur" type postings in the past, and insists on concealing his employment makes a few of us hostile and suspicious of anything posted.
We feel watched and hunted enough as it is, now some want to cry they are being set upon? How do you separate these things to make is all antiseptic.
If that was not coherent, am in a hurry.
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or you could make your own site and set the rules...
You are avoiding the issues I raised, but then again some people probably don't want to effectively organize and would rather complain instead. That's your prerogative.
The problem with "blowing off steam" is that it might feel good but accomplishes nothing. Actually it accomplishes less than nothing, because normal people are getting turned off and walking away and they aren't coming back.
And then you're left with Right Wing Fred. Yeah he shows up to the meetings but what about the 50 other people who he alienated? You and Fred may agree on some things but is it making a difference? Is anything being accomplished besides lots of shit talking about liberals and feeling sorry for yourselves?
Do you want to put up a serious challenge to the status quo or not?
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You are avoiding the issues I raised, but then again some people probably don't want to effectively organize and would rather complain instead. That's your prerogative.
The problem with "blowing off steam" is that it might feel good but accomplishes nothing. Actually it accomplishes less than nothing, because normal people are getting turned off and walking away and they aren't coming back.
And then you're left with Right Wing Fred. Yeah he shows up to the meetings but what about the 50 other people who he alienated? You and Fred may agree on some things but is it making a difference? Is anything being accomplished besides lots of shit talking about liberals and feeling sorry for yourselves?
Do you want to put up a serious challenge to the status quo or not?
ok, let's see what you organize to challenge the status quo...
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And then you're left with Right Wing Fred. Yeah he shows up to the meetings but what about the 50 other people who he alienated? You and Fred may agree on some things but is it making a difference? Is anything being accomplished besides lots of shit talking about liberals and feeling sorry for yourselves?
This alienation is not limited to just the organizing of 2nd Amendment initiatives in Hawaii, but can be seen in the absence of postings from long-time members in this forum as well as active participation in HDF/HRA.
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How about a group hug at the range. We can form a perimeter around the entire park. With empty holsters by our side and arms open wide - love on one another.
Because not everyone loves each other on 2ahawaii.com but Jesus loves each and every one of you :shaka:
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On second thought...
EEF vs. Flapp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yDL0AKUCKo
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ok, let's see what you organize to challenge the status quo...
I run BarterTown!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgq4w4dqKsU
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But in all seriousness
Looking for something we can rely on
There's got to be something better out there...
We don't need another hero,
We don't need to know the way home
All we want is life beyond 2ahawaii.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwRPXmcggdY
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I've been confused on what the purpose of this website is. The purpose determines on how the website is run. Currently, it's very open like a boys clubhouse where people can say just about anything they want. If it's meant as a discussion forum for a wide audience, then you need more moderation and rules. If the goal is focused on activism, technical, and gun rights then it has to be further moderated.
Websites like AR15.com tend to be more toward discussion for a wider audience. Technical websites like anandtech (for techies) are heavily moderated where you can't go off topic and you can get suspended easily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPY5P0TaC4k
All jokes aside you and the rest of the moderators need to come to a decision about what you are trying to accomplish here. If it's a boys club with shit smeared all over the walls then great job. If it's advocating for 2A rights and trying to bring people into the community then it should be obvious to everyone with a minimum third grade education that the current moderation policies are highly counterproductive. 2Ahawaii in its current state drives away normal people and rewards trolls for their hostility, effectively giving them a soap box as long as their views meet some unspoken right wing litmus test. You can justify it by "free speech" etc but it's like trying to have a business meeting with spoiled angry children throwing temper tantrums.
We should make a poll to decide what the goals of this site are, and then have another one to decide what kind of moderation policy would be most effective in achieving those goals. In other word have an actual plan
Maybe posting the TOS? If not, then my man mentions facing the wheel...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLjwEodCmT4
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ok, let's see what you organize to challenge the status quo...
Are you willing to have a conversation or is this about practicing your one-liners?
One thing I'm really curious about is the conversion rate. There has to be some way to track how many people participate in testimony or show up to events because they found out about it here. It would be wonderful to establish a baseline and then keep records over time as we try different ways to improve that ratio of clicks-to-action. That's probably too much to ask for now. A much easier solution would be surveys. Voluntary participation has it's own issues but it would be worth it to find out what people are doing now and what kind of approach would encourage them to do more. Throw in a couple p-mags and make a contest out of it.
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This alienation is not limited to just the organizing of 2nd Amendment initiatives in Hawaii, but can be seen in the absence of postings from long-time members in this forum as well as active participation in HDF/HRA.
Have you been actively participating in HDF or HRA events? Other than providing criticism.
I haven't been as active as I would like, but in the events that I do attend, both groups seem to have decent participation. Could it be better? Sure. People have lives to live and understand that these events can take up a lot of time. Yeah, some folks stop coming around, for a variety of reasons and feelings of alienation could be one of them. However, I often see many new folks coming in as well that contribute greatly.
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Have you been actively participating in HDF or HRA events? Other than providing criticism.
I haven't been as active as I would like, but in the events that I do attend, both groups seem to have decent participation. Could it be better? Sure. People have lives to live and understand that these events can take up a lot of time. Yeah, some folks stop coming around, for a variety of reasons and feelings of alienation could be one of them. However, I often see many new folks coming in as well that contribute greatly.
Speaking of you never coming, u gonna be at the fun shoot on Sunday? ;-)
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Speaking of you never coming, u gonna be at the fun shoot on Sunday? ;-)
I'm trying to get to the rifle range sometime this weekend. Not sure which day yet as I have to work around family stuff. I actually forgot about the fun shoot. If it works out, I'll try to head to the range on Sunday and swing by the fun shoot. Are you going? I just got the ZEV RMR slide back this past week too. Would have been fun to test it out in a fun shoot environment, as opposed to the 25 yard range.
I was also invited to a shoot on Sat, but doubtful that I will make it to that. So many events that I want to go to, but so little time. Haha
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I'm trying to get to the rifle range sometime this weekend. Not sure which day yet as I have to work around family stuff. I actually forgot about the fun shoot. If it works out, I'll try to head to the range on Sunday and swing by the fun shoot. Are you going? I just got the ZEV RMR slide back this past week too. Would have been fun to test it out in a fun shoot environment, as opposed to the 25 yard range.
I was also invited to a shoot on Sat, but doubtful that I will make it to that. So many events that I want to go to, but so little time. Haha
Yeah I should be there, message me if you're gonna go.
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Have you been actively participating in HDF or HRA events? Other than providing criticism.
I use to participate in many of the range days offered by both organizations, but like many others that I remember going with to those events, do not go anymore due to life's other obligations, but also due to the alienation and condescending behavior exhibited by certain members there.
Do not get me wrong, the leadership of both organizations have done a fantastic job at what they do. However, there are a few members in both organizations that knowingly or unknowingly rub people the wrong way, resulting in people not wanting to participate or associate with those events anymore.
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Well jeezuz, anything you do in life that has interaction with people is going to have some of differing personality that will "rub you the wrong way"
Bruh. Is that may so thin skinned?
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Well jeezuz, anything you do in life that has interaction with people is going to have some of differing personality that will "rub you the wrong way"
Bruh. Is that may so thin skinned?
I don't think I am thin skinned, given the many personal attacks I have received from my posts in this forum. In fact, I would argue that those who have engaged in personal attacks on this forum are more thin skinned, as they can't handle the possibility of a different perspective that challenges their own dogmas.
One observation that I was referring to in my statement above is the apparent cronyism that occurs from a few individuals at the various range days, where it is apparent that certain members are given special treatment, while others are kept on the edge the entire time they are there, regardless of the level of skill of that individual.
Sure, if you don't like how you are treated, then don't participate. Well, I guess that is why there is a lack of participation among 2a organizations here when it comes to furthering initiatives to improve gun rights in Hawaii.
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I use to participate in many of the range days offered by both organizations, but like many others that I remember going with to those events, do not go anymore due to life's other obligations, but also due to the alienation and condescending behavior exhibited by certain members there.
Do not get me wrong, the leadership of both organizations have done a fantastic job at what they do. However, there are a few members in both organizations that knowingly or unknowingly rub people the wrong way, resulting in people not wanting to participate or associate with those events anymore.
I don't know that much about HDF, but I can definitely see folks in HRA that rub folks the wrong way. I know that there are many cliques and not everyone gets along with everyone else. Such is life. I am aware of folks not coming out because of other folks. Peoples toes are stepped on, people encountering folks on a bad day, people are just plain assholes, etc. Again, such is life. My opinion is that there are many more TomG's, Drakiirs, dogman, etc than the assholes. I mean I am pretty easy going, but yeah, there are folks that I don't care for. But again, shooting is something I enjoy and I don't let that crap ruin it for me. If there's someone condescending or an asshole, f'em. Plenty of other good folks in both organizations.
I will say that times change and people do move on. I know of at least of a few more enigmatic folks have left that I heard used to be cause for rifts. I never really noticed myself, but such things come up over some cigars and whiskey. It's that latter connections that make participation worth it. Everyone has their limits and time is valuable. I wouldn't spend my time on things that left me feeling totally alienated and such, but then again, I'm not that thin skinned.
I have come across some condescending folks at many shooting events, classes, etc. But for the most part, those are the exception. I've had folks rub me the wrong way at HDF shoots many years ago, like the know-it-all that makes snide remarks on the side, all the while not even shooting himself. The competition shooter who never helps set up or clean up, but is always complaining about how long the event takes. So I do notice things that I don't like, but ignore them and move on. Enjoy life man.
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I don't think I am thin skinned, given the many personal attacks I have received from my posts in this forum. In fact, I would argue that those who have engaged in personal attacks on this forum are more thin skinned, as they can't handle the possibility of a different perspective that challenges their own dogmas.
One observation that I was referring to in my statement above is the apparent cronyism that occurs from a few individuals at the various range days, where it is apparent that certain members are given special treatment, while others are kept on the edge the entire time they are there, regardless of the level of skill of that individual.
Sure, if you don't like how you are treated, then don't participate. Well, I guess that is why there is a lack of participation among 2a organizations here when it comes to furthering initiatives to improve gun rights in Hawaii.
Special treatment? I don't see it that way. In fact, at most fun shoots, we tend to go out of our way to make sure newbies are taken care of. Both from a safety perspective as well as encouraging them to enjoy, in whatever capacity they want. Many are often tentative, especially given a new shooter and they come to the shoot alone. Understandable, but one also has to be an adult about things and not expect anything without putting something in themselves. On the rare occasions that I've been in charge of portions of range days, yeah, I'll surely joke around with those that I am closer to, but it's not like I'm snob or looking down on anyone. Maybe I am and don't know it. I'll have to let folks like Drakiir, dogman, TomG and others be the judge of that. I think I'm pretty easy going and want everyone who wants to participate, participate.
The shooting community is a community. If someone is always finding themselves on the outside looking in, maybe they should take a hard look at themselves before blaming everything on the organizations.
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We need sensitivity training prior to creating a 2ahawaii.com account.
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I don't think I am thin skinned, given the many personal attacks I have received from my posts in this forum. In fact, I would argue that those who have engaged in personal attacks on this forum are more thin skinned, as they can't handle the possibility of a different perspective that challenges their own dogmas.
One observation that I was referring to in my statement above is the apparent cronyism that occurs from a few individuals at the various range days, where it is apparent that certain members are given special treatment, while others are kept on the edge the entire time they are there, regardless of the level of skill of that individual.
Sure, if you don't like how you are treated, then don't participate. Well, I guess that is why there is a lack of participation among 2a organizations here when it comes to furthering initiatives to improve gun rights in Hawaii.
Know exactly how you feel. Guess life’s a bitch though...... :wacko:
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Yeah, you don't want "censorship", you just want people to not say what they want to say and you want to call that "self control", rather than "my control". How very convenient for you. You want to dictate what people are "allowed" to write, but you want them to acquiesce in conforming to your "standard" of what is "acceptable" or not. But you don't advocate censorship. You just want everyone to agree with you. Where have we seen that before? Another one of your, pardon me, logically incoherent and false claims.
Dictate? I don't know how you aren't getting this. Self control is the opposite of someone else controlling you. If you don't want to or are unable to control your own behavior then just say so. Don't try to pretend that a call for self control is equivalent to censorship and act as if I am making some irrational demand. :crazy:
Yeah, and your "complaining" and wanting people to exhibit "self-control" is not an attempt to "shut down" dialogue, right? Just "certain kinds" of dialogue that you find "unacceptable" for whatever variety of "reasons" you offer to justify ending such dialogue. You want to "foster dialogue" as long as it conforms to your standard of "appropriate" dialog. You can't make this stuff up.
I am not complaining I am making suggestions. But if you want to rationalize a calling for civil discourse as complaining so you can excuse counter productive behavior then I cannot stop you. I on the other hand will choose to put the cause ahead of my own desires to insult people.
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There’s condescending know-it-all’s in every group. That’s why I don’t care when people try to throw their shit at me (but it does get tiresome). For example, We have cockatiels and participate in the local parrot group but some of them are huge assholes about Godamn birds. Like I said, it gets tiresome after awhile.
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I've been reading and posting on Internet forums for a while now. There are some personalities that I don't give a rat's ass about and pretty much ignore. The majority of characters I've come across are considerate and friendly. They are willing to give positive advice and perspective. That's the reason why I join specific topic forums.
This is the fricking Internet and pretty much the wild west. I don't take it personally when the trolls come out to play. Eventually punk ass forum members will be tossed out by admin/mods or members will just ignore them. In the meantime, I just tolerate the bastards and game them whenever possible. Ha!
Life's too short, enjoy it while you can.
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And then there's this fuckitude...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/after-toronto-attack-online-misogynists-praise-suspect-new-saint-n868821
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On the rare occasions that I've been in charge of portions of range days, yeah, I'll surely joke around with those that I am closer to, but it's not like I'm snob or looking down on anyone. Maybe I am and don't know it. I'll have to let folks like Drakiir, dogman, TomG and others be the judge of that.
Judgement . . . :thumbsup: good job :thumbsup:
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I forget where it was or when it was but when I met a guy who said he was GreenStomper, I said "yeah your one of the good guys on 2a", he replied something like "growing up, if you don't have anything good to say . . . . . . ."
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The most basic question is not what is best,
but who shall decide what is best.
-Thomas Sowell
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I want to apologize if I have offended anyone on this forum. My intentions are not to insult people. I don't think I did, but every one perceives things differently. And what was nothing in my eyes, might have been insulting to another.
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If I might make a suggestion....
If you want 2aHawaii to be a friendlier forum for others, try to re-read your posts OUT LOUD. Attempt to HEAR IT from the other person's point of view on how it will be received.
In taking any public speaking lesson like toastmasters, one would know that any failure in communication is always the responsibility and the fault of the speaker. Granted, one can't please everyone but a little bit of self awareness will help minimize the appearance of being a jerk online.
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My apologies to all that I have offended. :( :-X
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I think everyone here can agree that we need all the help we can get in order to challenge the elitist narrative that gun ownership is somehow equated with defective moral character.
The weakness of our opponents is that they virtue signal with one breath and then spread easily disprovable lies with the next. As long as we can hold ranks and keep the moral high ground it's very difficult for them to push their agenda since they come across as unhinged while we look rational and mature in comparison. Once we drop down to their level of insults and tantrums then it's all about the momentum of sheer numbers, and in this State we are at a clear disadvantage.
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it all boils down to this......
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One strategy I use for handling debates on subjects is to watch professional debates. Each side makes a statement, a rebuttal, then it's up to the audience to figure out what side they want to go with. They don't keep going back and forth on the subject or asking for references or badgering the other side.
Problem I see is people really want to win at all costs and get so into it that they get tunnel vision. People looking in from the outside just see two idiots arguing.
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1) I think everyone here can agree that we need all the help we can get in order to challenge the elitist narrative that gun ownership is somehow equated with defective moral character.
The weakness of our opponents is that they virtue signal with one breath and 2) then spread easily disprovable lies with the next. As long as we can hold ranks and keep the moral high ground it's very difficult for them to push their agenda since they come across as unhinged while we look rational and mature in comparison. Once we drop down to their level of insults and tantrums then it's all about the momentum of sheer numbers, and in this State we are at a clear disadvantage.
1) Yes. Like with any groups, they often get labeled or associated based on the bad apples. Gun owners get associated with the mass shooters or crazed apocalyse prepper types. I see many responsible gun owners who are active in advocating for gun rights, but I see many more who have the "I've got mine and I just want to be left alone" mentality. Absolutely nothing wrong with the latter, but I also think that's why you see the gun community so fractured. The shotgunners talking shit about the precision rifle guys. The precision rifle guys looking down at the competition shooters. And so on.
2) I dunno. I see the lies being perpetuated and eaten up by anti-2a folks and even worse, those who would otherwise be neutral but buy into the emotional angle that anti-2a arguments typically go with. That and so much perpetuation of myths. I still remember my sister asking me about my Glocks and if they are the ones that can pass through metal detectors at airports. Mind you, she enjoys shooting and has come to the range with us many times.
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Another thing I see here is what appears to be difficulty in communication across what I assume are generation differences. Not sure how old all of you guys are, but I have a general idea of many. Each generation has their own distinct language and culture created by their unique generational markers and frame of reference. I see this all the time at work and in life really. I really the Baby Boomers and Millennials constantly butting heads more than other groups and a lot of that is that the just don't communicate well.
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One of the big problems I see about communicating on a forum is a lack of verbal and visual communication. Most people don't realize (or don't care) that a reader cannot always determine the intentions of what the writer is saying due to not being able to see their facial expressions and hear the inflections in their voice. We all rely on these in order to either communicate or understand what is being communicated. It takes a great understanding of this in order to effectively communicate on a forum like this. People can be banned but that is not something that occurs much in this forum.
I tend to agree with those who feel most people are getting too butt hurt and if the butt hurt can't take it then they should just move on. I'm not saying that we shouldn't all be accomodating here. But let's face it, you cannot control those who tend to be insulting, condensating, name calling, etc. You can only control how you act towards others and react to those who are abrasive towards you. Ignoring those who one finds obnoxious is the best way to handle this situation. Then all can participate. Unfortunately, human behavior isn't so cut and dried.
If the owner/mods of this forum are concerned about users not coming back, then they should take action to moderate the forum appropriately. But since that appears likely to not change anytime soon we need to adapt to the users who do post here. Not complaining, just stating a fact here. Otherwise, if one doesn't like what is being said, don't get involved in the discussions. JMHO
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There's also the question of responsibility and recognizing the role of the site in the bigger picture. When people search for gun related stuff in Hawaii this site is at the top of the results. That means the voices here are the loudest when it comes to representing everyone in the state.
It's also human nature for people to look the other way towards bad behavior when offensive parties happen to be on the same side of some the issues. There's no other way to explain why religious dogmatics support Trump despite his porn star banging antics, or why many in the supposed anti-war left stayed in love with Obomber throughout his term. It's not right or wrong, but high level hypocrisy definitely makes coalition building much more difficult when appealing to moderates who don't have a taste for bullshit sandwiches.
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I have friends who are doing the IIFYM.
Damn youtube, cant insert the Good Morning Vietnam clip ( The VP is a VIP who the VC want very much to be KIA or MIA. And if he's a POE, we will all be on KP.)Another thing I see here is what appears to be difficulty in communication across what I assume are generation differences. Not sure how old all of you guys are, but I have a general idea of many. Each generation has their own distinct language and culture created by their unique generational markers and frame of reference. I see this all the time at work and in life really. I really the Baby Boomers and Millennials constantly butting heads more than other groups and a lot of that is that the just don't communicate well.
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