2aHawaii
General Topics => Political Discussion => Topic started by: passivekinetic on August 08, 2018, 11:18:43 AM
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https://www.civilbeat.org/2018/07/candidate-qa-oha-oahu-trustee-sam-king/
Sam King is the only one with a good answer:
4. What are your views regarding Hawaiian independence?
If this refers to independence from the United States, I do not think that is a good idea. The U.S. is the greatest country in human history, and Hawaii has outsized influence over U.S. policy. We have two senators in Congress for our small population, giving each Hawaiian voter a larger impact. Currently we get billions of dollars from the federal government, and I’ve yet to see an independence plan that would be more beneficial to the Hawaiian people.
Additionally, what would we do with independence? Who would lead us? Would we restrict our leadership pool based on race? Would those race-based leaders subject themselves to the kinds of audits that exposed the waste and abuse at OHA this year? There are too many unknowns to make this a viable plan.
I have no info on the At-Large candidates and will abstain from voting for them, unless someone else has info and can post guidance here.
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https://www.civilbeat.org/2018/07/candidate-qa-oha-oahu-trustee-sam-king/
Sam King is the only one with a good answer:
4. What are your views regarding Hawaiian independence?
If this refers to independence from the United States, I do not think that is a good idea. The U.S. is the greatest country in human history, and Hawaii has outsized influence over U.S. policy. We have two senators in Congress for our small population, giving each Hawaiian voter a larger impact. Currently we get billions of dollars from the federal government, and I’ve yet to see an independence plan that would be more beneficial to the Hawaiian people.
Additionally, what would we do with independence? Who would lead us? Would we restrict our leadership pool based on race? Would those race-based leaders subject themselves to the kinds of audits that exposed the waste and abuse at OHA this year? There are too many unknowns to make this a viable plan.
I have no info on the At-Large candidates and will abstain from voting for them, unless someone else has info and can post guidance here.
IMHO I think that native Hawaiians must be legally recognized as the indigenous people of Hawaii as as such, since Hawaii is part of the US, recognized as Native Americans with all the benefits therein. Being 25% Mohawk, I don’t like using the term “reservation” so maybe a nation within a nation would b more appropriate.......
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IMHO I think that native Hawaiians must be legally recognized as the indigenous people of Hawaii as as such, since Hawaii is part of the US, recognized as Native Americans with all the benefits therein. Being 25% Mohawk, I don’t like using the term “reservation” so maybe a nation within a nation would b more appropriate.......
Didn't GW Bush do this? I'm not 100% sure.
The only benefit to being sovereign would be to allow Hawaiian Casino's. But then it goes to, who will get the profit checks if any? I knew a guy who was part of a tribe and he would get $4k a month just for being a member of that tribe. He didn't work, just cruise at the beach all day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5xVRXLgLxw
One of my fav vids of him and his "isms"
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https://www.civilbeat.org/2018/07/candidate-qa-oha-oahu-trustee-sam-king/
Sam King is the only one with a good answer:
4. What are your views regarding Hawaiian independence?
If this refers to independence from the United States, I do not think that is a good idea. The U.S. is the greatest country in human history, and Hawaii has outsized influence over U.S. policy. We have two senators in Congress for our small population, giving each Hawaiian voter a larger impact. Currently we get billions of dollars from the federal government, and I’ve yet to see an independence plan that would be more beneficial to the Hawaiian people.
Additionally, what would we do with independence? Who would lead us? Would we restrict our leadership pool based on race? Would those race-based leaders subject themselves to the kinds of audits that exposed the waste and abuse at OHA this year? There are too many unknowns to make this a viable plan.
I have no info on the At-Large candidates and will abstain from voting for them, unless someone else has info and can post guidance here.
So, are you basing your vote for OHA candidate Sam King on his views regarding Hawaiian Independence?
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IMHO I think that native Hawaiians must be legally recognized as the indigenous people of Hawaii as as such, since Hawaii is part of the US, recognized as Native Americans with all the benefits therein.
Hawaii is not legally part of the US. It is illegally occupied by the US under US Constitutional Law.
Being 25% Mohawk, I don’t like using the term “reservation” so maybe a nation within a nation would b more appropriate.......
Once again, nation within a nation is legally irrelevant because the Kingdom of Hawaii never lost its sovereignty.
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Hawaii is not legally part of the US. It is illegally occupied by the US under US Constitutional Law.
Once again, nation within a nation is legally irrelevant because the Kingdom of Hawaii never lost its sovereignty.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Which Kingdom of Hawaii is this? And who is its King? There are several that lay claim.
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:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Which Kingdom of Hawaii is this? And who is its King? There are several that lay claim.
There is only one Kingdom of Hawaii.
To my knowledge, there is no ruling monarch at this time. Those who currently are claiming the throne has no legal basis to do so.
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There is only one Kingdom of Hawaii.
To my knowledge, there is no ruling monarch at this time. Those who currently are claiming the throne has no legal basis to do so.
Is open carry legal in the Kingdom of Hawaii?
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Is open carry legal in the Kingdom of Hawaii?
I surely would hope so.
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If not they never learn from the first overthrow.
But on fb, these are the same aunties against ccw/open carry.Is open carry legal in the Kingdom of Hawaii?
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
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Was wondering when you would pop up with your B.S. Kitchigai, des!
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Was wondering when you would pop up with your B.S. Kitchigai, des!
Like a moth to a flame ... :rofl:
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Like a moth to a flame ... :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Was wondering when you would pop up with your B.S. Kitchigai, des!
You are the one with the B.S.
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I think OHA is a sham. It is just an extension of cronyism in Hawaii. Exclusive contracts and deals that arent serving their mission but serving board members. Sad. The last bit of news was some grand standing by Lei Ahu Isa of how she left an accident and threw down her "Im an OHA trustee" card. These people think they are above the people when they are servants of the people. Act like it.
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You are the one with the B.S.
Go away little boy troll.... :wave:
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I think OHA is a sham. It is just an extension of cronyism in Hawaii. Exclusive contracts and deals that arent serving their mission but serving board members. Sad. The last bit of news was some grand standing by Lei Ahu Isa of how she left an accident and threw down her "Im an OHA trustee" card. These people think they are above the people when they are servants of the people. Act like it.
OHA is a disgrace for all Native Hawaiians.
OHA is nothing more than a money broker that takes US federal dollars and hands much of it to questionable organizations, whose initiatives do not necessarily serve for the betterment of Native Hawaiians. The fact that Native Hawaiians are still on the bottom rung of every major socio-economic measure in Hawaii is empirical evidence of OHA's failure since its creation.
Native Hawaiians should not place their faith and well-being in OHA or any US assistance, but work towards restoring their illegally occupied nation and gain self-sufficiency by their own means.
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OHA is a disgrace for all Native Hawaiians.
OHA is nothing more than a money broker that takes US federal dollars and hands much of it to questionable organizations, whose initiatives do not necessarily serve for the betterment of Native Hawaiians. The fact that Native Hawaiians are still on the bottom rung of every major socio-economic measure in Hawaii is empirical evidence of OHA's failure since its creation.
Native Hawaiians should not place their faith and well-being in OHA or any US assistance, but work towards restoring their illegally occupied nation and gain self-sufficiency by their own means.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :wave:
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OHA is a disgrace for all Native Hawaiians.
OHA is nothing more than a money broker that takes US federal dollars and hands much of it to questionable organizations, whose initiatives do not necessarily serve for the betterment of Native Hawaiians. The fact that Native Hawaiians are still on the bottom rung of every major socio-economic measure in Hawaii is empirical evidence of OHA's failure since its creation.
Native Hawaiians should not place their faith and well-being in OHA or any US assistance, but work towards restoring their illegally occupied nation and gain self-sufficiency by their own means.
So what's the plan to retake this illegally occupied nation?
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So what's the plan to retake this illegally occupied nation?
:sleeping:
(https://i.imgur.com/rqYQRiu.gif)
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So what's the plan to retake this illegally occupied nation?
It is already happening all around you.
FYI. The US is falling apart from within, if you have not noticed lately.
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I don't see it. I've been going to work and see other people doing the same.
Examples?
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I don't see it. I've been going to work and see other people doing the same.
Examples?
For starters:
1. Income distribution within the US (i.e., the 1% is getting richer at the expense of everybody else).
2. Unending rise of illegal immigrants overtaxing the already depleted welfare system to collapse.
3. Rise of racial tensions among Whites, Blacks, and Latinos.
4. Calls for succession from a number of US states (e.g., California and Texas)
5. Steady erosion of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights (e.g., Abuse of Executive Orders, 2nd Amendment, etc.).
6. Ever increasing un-payable US National debt.
7. Steady rise of Latino-based organized crime activity in the US.
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For starters:
1. Income distribution within the US (i.e., the 1% is getting richer at the expense of everybody else).
2. Unending rise of illegal immigrants overtaxing the already depleted welfare system to collapse.
3. Rise of racial tensions among Whites, Blacks, and Latinos.
4. Calls for succession from a number of US states (e.g., California and Texas)
5. Steady erosion of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights (e.g., Abuse of Executive Orders, 2nd Amendment, etc.).
6. Ever increasing un-payable US National debt.
7. Steady rise of Latino-based organized crime activity in the US.
Those were started by the Hawaiian Kingdom?
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I question whether any living native Hawaiians (1/32 or 1/64 now?) would prefer to live under our current republic or under a monarchy?
Based on the history of the way the Hawaiian monarchy was ruled prior, I would think any intelligent person would rather have the freedoms we enjoy now over living under the thumb of a ruling family whose whim they would be subject to. JMHO
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Those were started by the Hawaiian Kingdom?
Those were some of the examples clearly showing how the US is in decline.
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I question whether any living native Hawaiians (1/32 or 1/64 now?) would prefer to live under our current republic or under a monarchy?
The opinion of whether any living Native Hawaiian would want to live under a monarchy or a republic is irrelevant. The illegal occupation of any nation is a matter of law; whereby, once an occupation ends, the control of that nation reverts back to the remaining living or descendants of that nation.
I personally like democratic republics myself.
Based on the history of the way the Hawaiian monarchy was ruled prior, I would think any intelligent person would rather have the freedoms we enjoy now over living under the thumb of a ruling family whose whim they would be subject to. JMHO
If you read the history of Hawaii during the monarchy, especially after Kamehameha III, you will find that Hawaiian subjects enjoyed many of the civil liberties similar to Americans at that time. Keep in mind, those responsible for the overthrow of Queen Liliuokalani were very wealthy Hawaiians of American decent.
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Those were some of the examples clearly showing how the US is in decline.
His question was "So what's the plan to retake this illegally occupied nation?"
You replied:
It is already happening all around you.
FYI. The US is falling apart from within, if you have not noticed lately.
He then replied:
I don't see it. I've been going to work and see other people doing the same.
Examples?
Your response was related to your "FYI", not his question "what's the plan?"
So, are you implying the "plan" to restore Hawaii is to destroy the US from within?
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"So, are you implying the "plan" to restore Hawaii is to destroy the US from within?"
Restoration efforts are already taking place on many fronts. Educationally, Hawaiians, Americans, as well as foreigners, domestic and abroad, are being made aware of the illegal occupation of Hawaii by the US, within the public school systems, academia, and international audiences. Politically, successful efforts have been made to reach out for support from international agencies. Culturally, the Hawaiian language and culture is becoming nomalized and adopted within the local government, especially by the youth.
There is no need for any of the enemies of America to foster the decline of the US. The US is self-destructing very steadily under its own weight.
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This sovereignty issues is all about money.
The people inhabiting the islands where are NOT indigenous, to here,
but they were cheated out of land. Hawaiians weren't strong enough
to keep it. That is a story that has occurred in all the world.
I encourage "racially pure" Hawaiians to re-form whatever tribe they think
they are and go for it. It will be like Jim Jones in Guyana, except with a different King
and different Gods.
All my ancestors were cheated out of their land. killed, raped, enslaved,
suffered all manners of abuse, from outside invaders.
But I don't use my race as a crutch, nor do I live in the past, I learn from
the past but do not dwell in it. I only want the all citizens of
modern Hawaii to have all the same freedoms and chances that
the laws provide. That is ALL citizens, not the ones that think they are
"special"
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Kuleana, I don’t agree with your premise that the opinions of whether native Hawaiians want to live in either society are irrelevant. This means you are saying that native Hawaiians don’t have a choice. And if they did it doesn’t matter. Their opinions are quite relevant and they show it every time they vote for any elected officials. OHA, Federal, State or otherwise. I say the reason why native Hawaiians have not risen up and taken back their land is that they hare happy the way they are. And as long as they continue to get some measley handout or be put on a list for some sort of handout, they will never prefer a monarchy to this country.
Truly, those that want to live in such a society could easily go live on an uninhabited island in the chain. Oh wait, some already do... But then they need to have an opinion that is relevant in order to make that happen.
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The problem with your other premise that subjects living in the maonarchy after Kam III can have all of that taken away with the wave of a hand at any minute. Sorry, none of your premises seem real to me.
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"So, are you implying the "plan" to restore Hawaii is to destroy the US from within?"
Restoration efforts are already taking place on many fronts. Educationally, Hawaiians, Americans, as well as foreigners, domestic and abroad, are being made aware of the illegal occupation of Hawaii by the US, within the public school systems, academia, and international audiences. Politically, successful efforts have been made to reach out for support from international agencies. Culturally, the Hawaiian language and culture is becoming nomalized and adopted within the local government, especially by the youth.
There is no need for any of the enemies of America to foster the decline of the US. The US is self-destructing very steadily under its own weight.
Those are very broad generalizations that show no plan in action.
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Kuleana, I don’t agree with your premise that the opinions of whether native Hawaiians want to live in either society are irrelevant. This means you are saying that native Hawaiians don’t have a choice. And if they did it doesn’t matter. Their opinions are quite relevant and they show it every time they vote for any elected officials. OHA, Federal, State or otherwise.
When I said the voices and opinions of Native Hawaiians are irrelevant, I meant it in the context of law. Whether some Hawaiians like the US does not matter with respect to the fact that they are still Hawaiian nationals and will have to accept political authority of their nation, if and when the occupation of Hawaii by the US ends.
I say the reason why native Hawaiians have not risen up and taken back their land is that they hare happy the way they are. And as long as they continue to get some measley handout or be put on a list for some sort of handout, they will never prefer a monarchy to this country.
That may be true for the low educated, welfare dependent Hawaiians. However, that is not true for a great number of other Hawaiians who are aware of the illegality of the US occupation of Hawaii based on US Constitutional law. Have you seen the US Department of Interior hearings that were conducted to see whether Hawaiians were willing to be recognized to be a nation within a nation in 2014? You can do a search on YouTube on those hearings and see for yourself what the preponderance of the Hawaiian responses were.
Most of those hearings did not make into the mainstream media, by-the-way, due to the overwhelming pro-restoration sentiment of the Hawaiian populous.
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The problem with your other premise that subjects living in the maonarchy after Kam III can have all of that taken away with the wave of a hand at any minute. Sorry, none of your premises seem real to me.
There is no historical evidence that I am aware since Kamehameha III, where the constitutional monarchy confiscated privately owned land or property. In fact, I do not recall Kalakaua or Liliuokalani confiscating any land of those American descendant Hawaiians, who would later overthrow the monarchy for personal economic gain.
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This sovereignty issues is all about money.
The people inhabiting the islands where are NOT indigenous, to here,
but they were cheated out of land. Hawaiians weren't strong enough
to keep it. That is a story that has occurred in all the world.
I encourage "racially pure" Hawaiians to re-form whatever tribe they think
they are and go for it. It will be like Jim Jones in Guyana, except with a different King
and different Gods.
All my ancestors were cheated out of their land. killed, raped, enslaved,
suffered all manners of abuse, from outside invaders.
But I don't use my race as a crutch, nor do I live in the past, I learn from
the past but do not dwell in it. I only want the all citizens of
modern Hawaii to have all the same freedoms and chances that
the laws provide. That is ALL citizens, not the ones that think they are
"special"
Well, I got news for you.
Many Native Hawaiians have been facing tremendous institutionalized discrimination daily, since the Americans illegally took over Hawaii.
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So there is no plan to end this occupation. Just sit back and enjoy American creature comforts for another 100 years and hope the US collapses. Its called assimilation. You lost already. Youre fooling yourself about education. Meanwhile lands are being developed and more homes are built.
The govt is trying to give to Hawaiians but this org called OHA is diverting those funds. Thats where your tactical fight should be. Some of these trustees have nice jewelry and cars huh?
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So there is no plan to end this occupation. Just sit back and enjoy American creature comforts for another 100 years and hope the US collapses. Its called assimilation. You lost already. Youre fooling yourself about education. Meanwhile lands are being developed and more homes are built.
The govt is trying to give to Hawaiians but this org called OHA is diverting those funds. Thats where your tactical fight should be. Some of these trustees have nice jewelry and cars huh?
Who said, there where no Hawaiians fighting to end OHA. There are many that do not get publicity for doing so.
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Well, I got news for you.
Many Native Hawaiians have been facing tremendous institutionalized discrimination daily, since the Americans illegally took over Hawaii.
Because you say so? Or do you have supporting evidence of that claim?
Easy to make blanket statements and offer zero proof.
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Because you say so? Or do you have supporting evidence of that claim?
Easy to make blanket statements and offer zero proof.
Your statement is very telling in many ways.
First of all, it is clear that you don't know much of the history of Hawaii from its pre-European contact period to the present.
Second, given the very insulting nature of your information request, you clearly are not someone born from here, since most people who are locally born, do not require proof to know how Hawaiians have been and are still facing socio-economic disparity as a result to the racist behaviors by those in power. Why do you think OHA was created in the first place?
Third, your replies to my posts in this thread appears more directed at me, rather than the issue being discussed; inferring to me, a Native Hawaiian, you are anti-Hawaiian whenever a Hawaiian tries to gain social justice.
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Your statement is very telling in many ways.
First of all, it is clear that you don't know much of the history of Hawaii from its pre-European contact period to the present.
Second, given the very insulting nature of your information request, you clearly are not someone born from here, since most people who are locally born, do not require proof to know how Hawaiians have been and are still facing socio-economic disparity as a result to the racist behaviors by those in power. Why do you think OHA was created in the first place?
Third, your replies to my posts in this thread appears more directed at me, rather than the issue being discussed; inferring to me, a Native Hawaiian, you are anti-Hawaiian whenever a Hawaiian tries to gain social justice.
So what if someone is born here or not? I couldn't go to Kam School. How do they determine if you are Hawaiian so a person can go there as a student?
The issue of a whole race being denied opportunities is dated. Opportunities are there. They don't magically pop up and come to fruition. Opportunity is just a door. There is work to be done once you get beyond that door. Despite all the corruption, aren't the Kealohas Hawaiian? If so, you have a Chief of Police and a City attorney. Stop rolling over and playing the victim. Opportunities are there go get them.
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So what if someone is born here or not? I couldn't go to Kam School. How do they determine if you are Hawaiian so a person can go there as a student?
If you have done your background research, you will understand Princess Pauahi Bishop created Kamhemeha Schools to be attended by Native Hawaiians in an attempt to ensure her people would receive an education that would result in skills for them to survive in a capitalist world that was still foreign to most common Hawaiians of her day. Hawaiian ancestry is determined via an analysis of genealogy and of birth certificates.
You were born in Hawaii. You never knew much about the purpose of Kamehameha Schools?
The issue of a whole race being denied opportunities is dated. Opportunities are there.
In the spirit of what Flapp Jackson would say, what metrics are you using to determine the number of opportunities that are currently available in the US?
They don't magically pop up and come to fruition. Opportunity is just a door. There is work to be done once you get beyond that door.
I would agree on the surface, but you have to admit, your views are based on speculation. I would love to hear Heavy Barrels take on your views regarding economic opportunities, especially in Hawaii.
Despite all the corruption, aren't the Kealohas Hawaiian? If so, you have a Chief of Police and a City attorney.
Like OHA, the Kealoha's are a disgrace to Hawaiians and something to be used as an object lesson not to repeat.
Stop rolling over and playing the victim. Opportunities are there go get them.
Easy to say, when it was not your nation that is illegally being occupied by a foreign power. You would be singing a different tune, if the Soviet Union was illegally occupying the US. If the US was ever taken over by the Soviet Union, most Americans would harbor the exact same sentiments as Hawaiians, despite having access to the opportunities and privileges of being a citizen of the Soviet Union.
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Your statement is very telling in many ways.
First of all, it is clear that you don't know much of the history of Hawaii from its pre-European contact period to the present.
Second, given the very insulting nature of your information request, you clearly are not someone born from here, since most people who are locally born, do not require proof to know how Hawaiians have been and are still facing socio-economic disparity as a result to the racist behaviors by those in power. Why do you think OHA was created in the first place?
Third, your replies to my posts in this thread appears more directed at me, rather than the issue being discussed; inferring to me, a Native Hawaiian, you are anti-Hawaiian whenever a Hawaiian tries to gain social justice.
So, no evidence?
Gotcha.
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In the spirit of Flapp Jackson would say, what metrics are you using to determine the number of opportunities that are currently available in the US?
Metrics? How about the fact a Hawaii resident went on to be President? Is that not the most definitive example of opportunity for Hawaii-born people anyone could ever expect?
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So, no evidence?
Gotcha.
The evidence is all around you that only your anti-Hawaiian mind can't see.
If you know any Native Hawaiians, why don't you have a chat regarding racism with them.
Better yet, do a YouTube search on the DOI hearings with Native Hawaiians in 2014 regarding the US attempt to persuade Hawaiians into accepting a "nation within a nation status" similar to Native American Indians.
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Metrics? How about the fact a Hawaii resident went on to be President? Is that not the most definitive example of opportunity for Hawaii-born people anyone could ever expect?
First of all, I never knew you were an admirirer of former President Barack Obama.
I am surely not.
Second, my position is in the context of Native Hawaiians, which he is not, or even a US born American, depending what republican you ask.
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First of all, I never knew you were an admirirer of former President Barack Obama.
I am surely not.
Second, my position is in the context of Native Hawaiians, which he is not, or even a US born American, depending what republican you ask.
I don't admire Jimmy Carter as president, but becoming President is an accomplishment few of us can claim. It speaks to opportunity -- anyone can be president if they put their mind to it.
Obama showed a Hawaii Birth Certificate. Are you buying into the birther conspiracy theory? For him to get that duplicate certificate, the Hawaii gov't would have to be involved in the fraud.
So, you're saying 2 people born in Hawaii, one of mixed White/African ethnicity and one of Native Hawaiian ethnicity, don't have the same opportunities?
You're tripping.
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I don't admire Jimmy Carter as president, but becoming President is an accomplishment few of us can claim. It speaks to opportunity -- anyone can be president if they put their mind to it.
Obama showed a Hawaii Birth Certificate. Are you buying into the birther conspiracy theory? For him to get that duplicate certificate, the Hawaii gov't would have to be involved in the fraud.
So, you're saying 2 people born in Hawaii, one of mixed White/African ethnicity and one of Native Hawaiian ethnicity, don't have the same opportunities?
You're tripping.
If you were born and raised in Hawaii, you will know not everyone in Hawaii is given the same opportunity.
For example, Obama went to Punahou, one of the top schools in Hawaii. It is a selective school, which most middle class locals don't have the financial opportunity to attend, far worse for Native Hawaiians.
Nevertheless, I still can't get over your in-the-closet admiration of President Obama, in light of the general consensus view of him in the pro-2nd Amendment community. :wtf:
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If you were born and raised in Hawaii, you will know not everyone in Hawaii is given the same opportunity.
For example, Obama went to Punahou, one of the top schools in Hawaii. It is a selective school, which most middle class locals don't have the financial opportunity to attend, far worse for Native Hawaiians.
Nevertheless, I still can't get over your in-the-closet admiration of President Obama, in light of the general consensus view of him in the pro-2nd Amendment community. :wtf:
Are you telling me not everyone born in Hawaii who makes good grades and can afford the tuition will be allowed to attend a good private school?
Opportunities require you to avail yourself of them. There are scholarships, if you work hard in school and make good grades.
Equal opportunity doesn't mean equal outcome. All men are created equal, but not all are equally motivated.
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If you were born and raised in Hawaii, you will know not everyone in Hawaii is given the same opportunity.
For example, Obama went to Punahou, one of the top schools in Hawaii. It is a selective school, which most middle class locals don't have the financial opportunity to attend, far worse for Native Hawaiians.
Nevertheless, I still can't get over your in-the-closet admiration of President Obama, in light of the general consensus view of him in the pro-2nd Amendment community. :wtf:
I find it telling how much of a racist you are.
You seem to have an ingrained belief in the soft bigotry of low expectations for Native Hawaiians.
it's not because they don't get the same opportunities, because some actually get BETTER opportunities (Kamehameha Schools for example).
According to you, Native Hawaiians simply can't compete with every other person on the planet for some reason.
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Are you telling me not everyone born in Hawaii who makes good grades and can afford the tuition will be allowed to attend a good private school?
I guess you need to talk to the many parents on this forum to get your answer. There are many keiki in Hawaii, who do get good grades and still not get the opportunity to attend Punahou or some of the other top private schools in Hawaii.
Opportunities require you to avail yourself of them. There are scholarships, if you work hard in school and make good grades.
There are scholarships, but that does mean you will get to attend good academic institutions like Punahou or Iolani.
Equal opportunity doesn't mean equal outcome. All men are created equal, but not all are equally motivated.
I agree there.
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I find it telling how much of a racist you are.
I assure you I am not, unlike how you made clear your true feelings about President Obama.
You seem to have an ingrained belief in the soft bigotry of low expectations for Native Hawaiians.
You can go to any published research regarding the socio-economic status of Native Hawaiians and see for yourself.
it's not because they don't get the same opportunities, because some actually get BETTER opportunities (Kamehameha Schools for example).
Once again, if you took the time to talk to local people about Kamehameha Schools, you would learn that the majority of Native Hawaiian keiki are not afforded the opportunity to attend that institution and are subject to very low performing public schools.
According to you, Native Hawaiians simply can't compete with every other person on the planet for some reason.
That seemed to be the case empirically from all available research that anyone can look for themselves, since the occupation of Hawaii by the US.
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So your evidence is: "It's out there. Go look for it?"
:rofl:
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How the heck did John Waihee get elected Governor in such a racist state?
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So your evidence is: "It's out there. Go look for it?"
:rofl:
It is one thing to disagree with my views, but you need to apologize and explain to this forum your revealed positive views of President Obama. :rofl:
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It is one thing to disagree with my views, but you need to apologize and explain to this forum your revealed positive views of President Obama. :rofl:
Your deflections are obvious. You have no evidence for your conclusions. You refuse to address or admit it.
Have a nice weekend.
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How the heck did John Waihee get elected Governor in such a racist state?
Because he was, by then, a major player of the Democratic Party Cabal that dominates Hawaii; not because he was Native Hawaiian.
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How did Daniel Akaka get elected?
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Damn. With all this racism its a miracle there are any candidates this election year.
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Manifest Destiny.... :wave:
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Because he was, by then, a major player of the Democratic Party Cabal that dominates Hawaii; not because he was Native Hawaiian.
So he wasnt eleceted by the People? Can we get a recount?
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So he wasnt eleceted by the People? Can we get a recount?
What the hell are Native Hawaiians doing voting for non-Native Hawaiians? Have they not done the research to locate that empirical evidence they are oppressed and need to only support their own kind?
Must be a US conspiracy in Hawaii schools programming Native Hawaiians to treat everyone as equals regardless of race.
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How did Daniel Akaka get elected?
Strong name recognition among Hawaii residents, but more importantly, a person who could be manipulated by those Democrats and special interests behind the scenes. He was a nice man, but by no means the most capable person for the seat he held in office.
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So he wasnt eleceted by the People? Can we get a recount?
He was, but was also definitely supported by major players in town (e.g., unions, business, etc.).
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He was, but was also definitely supported by major players in town (e.g., unions, business, etc.).
Which unions and businesses were those? Hawaiians should #Boycott
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He was, but was also definitely supported by major players in town (e.g., unions, business, etc.).
Unions and businesses, as we all know, are not run/owned by Native Hawaiians. Only those "other" races get the blame for all the bad things here.
(https://i.imgur.com/cKEvWPw.jpg?1)
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What the hell are Native Hawaiians doing voting for non-Native Hawaiians? Have they not done the research to locate that empirical evidence they are oppressed and need to only support their own kind?
Must be a US conspiracy in Hawaii schools programming Native Hawaiians to treat everyone as equals regardless of race.
You must be one of those white guys who thinks he knows whats best for native Hawaiians and how things really are for them, even though you're just a transplant and never lived as an indigenous person in these islands.
You also probably tell other minorities that the government doesn't promote contributed ignorance amoung their demographic, and maintaining current status quo with regards to access to education and programs to promote self-empowerment in their neighborhoods, even though you've likely never been there.
Glad we have flapp_jackson and Ren to tell Hawaiians what's best for us and what we are doing wrong. Who knows where we'd be if You guys were educating us dumb natives on what really is or how it should be.
Unions and businesses, as we all know, are not run/owned by Native Hawaiians. Only those "other" races get the blame for all the bad things here.
(https://i.imgur.com/cKEvWPw.jpg?1)
Exactly, so You should be hating on ren and his people for why Hawaii is the way it is, as they formed the unions and dominated the state political system since the 1960s, not native indigenous Hawaiians
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I don't know how these programs exist given the racism of America.
http://www.hawaiireporter.com/exclusive-federal-contract-preferences-a-boon-for-native-hawaiian-owned-companies/ (http://www.hawaiireporter.com/exclusive-federal-contract-preferences-a-boon-for-native-hawaiian-owned-companies/)
https://www.nativehawaiianchamberofcommerce.org/ (https://www.nativehawaiianchamberofcommerce.org/)
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You must be one of those white guys who thinks he knows whats best for native Hawaiians and how things really are for them, even though you're just a transplant and never lived as an indigenous person in these islands.
You also probably tell other minorities that the government doesn't promote contributed ignorance amoung their demographic, and maintaining current status quo with regards to access to education and programs to promote self-empowerment in their neighborhoods, even though you've likely never been there.
Glad we have flapp_jackson and Ren to tell Hawaiians what's best for us and what we are doing wrong. Who knows where we'd be if You guys were educating us dumb natives on what really is or how it should be.
Exactly, so You should be hating on ren and his people for why Hawaii is the way it is, as they formed the unions and dominated the state political system since the 1960s, not native indigenous Hawaiians
Yeah, you have me pegged. I hate all Hawaiians. That's why I've lived here for 25 years..
I don't tell anyone what is best for them, race notwithstanding. I do point out that opportunities to improve your lot in life exist for more people in the US than in any other country on Earth -- perhaps in history.
You're free to choose what you want to be. But, if you're blaming everyone else for not being the adult you wanted to be, I'll tell you to look in the mirror first. Too many have risen from far lower ranks and achieved far greater success for there to be some systemic oppression.
We are all the sum of our decisions. Native Hawaiians are no exception. Hate if you want. Your choice.
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What the hell are Native Hawaiians doing voting for non-Native Hawaiians? Have they not done the research to locate that empirical evidence they are oppressed and need to only support their own kind?
Must be a US conspiracy in Hawaii schools programming Native Hawaiians to treat everyone as equals regardless of race.
It’s Trump’s fault! :worship:
I’m an equal opportunity racist, I frigging hate everybody :wacko: :sleeping: :shake:
No such thing as Indians, just native Americans..... :wave: :D
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You must be one of those white guys who thinks he knows whats best for native Hawaiians and how things really are for them, even though you're just a transplant and never lived as an indigenous person in these islands.
You also probably tell other minorities that the government doesn't promote contributed ignorance amoung their demographic, and maintaining current status quo with regards to access to education and programs to promote self-empowerment in their neighborhoods, even though you've likely never been there.
I went to college under a 4-year Air Force ROTC Scholarship. There were 2 other 4-yr scholarship students in my class: a White woman and a Black woman.
I had passing SAT scores, a low A/high B average from high school. I worked 2-3 part time jobs in high school because my family was poor -- food stamps, free school lunches, etc.
I graduated college with a BA in Computer Science. The day I showed up for in-processing, I had $25 in my bank account and less than $20 on me. I walked out of the finance office with over $3000, and just 5 days until payday.
I made my choices, and life worked out very well for me.
Equal opportunity -- not equal outcome.
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You must be one of those white guys who thinks he knows whats best for native Hawaiians and how things really are for them, even though you're just a transplant and never lived as an indigenous person in these islands.
You also probably tell other minorities that the government doesn't promote contributed ignorance amoung their demographic, and maintaining current status quo with regards to access to education and programs to promote self-empowerment in their neighborhoods, even though you've likely never been there.
Glad we have flapp_jackson and Ren to tell Hawaiians what's best for us and what we are doing wrong. Who knows where we'd be if You guys were educating us dumb natives on what really is or how it should be.
Exactly, so You should be hating on ren and his people for why Hawaii is the way it is, as they formed the unions and dominated the state political system since the 1960s, not native indigenous Hawaiians
Remember that everybody came from somewhere, including Polynesians to these islands...
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Yeah, you have me pegged. I hate all Hawaiians. That's why I've lived here for 25 years..
So are you saying your love for Hawaiians is why you choose to live here for 25 years?
I don't tell anyone what is best for them, race notwithstanding. I do point out that opportunities to improve your lot in life exist for more people in the US than in any other country on Earth -- perhaps in history.
Wow, if what you say were true, why are the rich getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, and the middle class is still eroding away?
You're free to choose what you want to be. But, if you're blaming everyone else for not being the adult you wanted to be, I'll tell you to look in the mirror first. Too many have risen from far lower ranks and achieved far greater success for there to be some systemic oppression.
You are basing your statements on a false narrative. The narrative being Hawaii is a legal part of the US. The US is illegally occupying Hawaii, similar to how Israel is ever increasing their illegal occupation of what's left of Palestine and then telling the Palestinians how great they have it with all the great opportunities that exist for them due to Israel's occupation.
We are all the sum of our decisions. Native Hawaiians are no exception. Hate if you want. Your choice.
Native Hawaiians were never given a decision to be annexed by the US.
The only time the US legitimately tried to ask whether Native Hawaiians wanted to be a "nation within a nation" was back in 2014 at the DOI hearings that anyone can watch on YouTube and see what the prevailing view was on being part of the US.
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You must be one of those white guys who thinks he knows whats best for native Hawaiians and how things really are for them, even though you're just a transplant and never lived as an indigenous person in these islands.
You also probably tell other minorities that the government doesn't promote contributed ignorance amoung their demographic, and maintaining current status quo with regards to access to education and programs to promote self-empowerment in their neighborhoods, even though you've likely never been there.
Glad we have flapp_jackson and Ren to tell Hawaiians what's best for us and what we are doing wrong. Who knows where we'd be if You guys were educating us dumb natives on what really is or how it should be.
Exactly, so You should be hating on ren and his people for why Hawaii is the way it is, as they formed the unions and dominated the state political system since the 1960s, not native indigenous Hawaiians
I didn't call a race "dumb" . I'm pointing out that there are Hawaiians who made it - Leaders, professionals in this so-called "system". Like I said the more ANYONE plays the victim card the more you entrap yourself in your own perspective. It's your own card to play as with all freedoms - its your choice.
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I went to college under a 4-year Air Force ROTC Scholarship. There were 2 other 4-yr scholarship students in my class: a White woman and a Black woman.
I had passing SAT scores, a low A/high B average from high school. I worked 2-3 part time jobs in high school because my family was poor -- food stamps, free school lunches, etc.
I graduated college with a BA in Computer Science. The day I showed up for in-processing, I had $25 in my bank account and less than $20 on me. I walked out of the finance office with over $3000, and just 5 days until payday.
I made my choices, and life worked out very well for me.
Equal opportunity -- not equal outcome.
Congratulations for you!
However, not everyone who is majoring in computer science can replicate your success or think they can be the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rXUOHb9K9Mo
Manifest destiny!
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I didn't call a race "dumb" . I'm pointing out that there are Hawaiians who made it. Leaders, professionals in this so-called "system"
Do not confuse outliers, as being the norm or standard.
Just because the US had its first Black president, with debatable commentary of his success, does not mean there will be another Black president anytime soon nor it can said that Blacks now have an equal opportunity to life, similar to the White majority.
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It’s Trump’s fault! :worship:
I’m an equal opportunity racist, I frigging hate everybody :wacko: :sleeping: :shake:
No such thing as Indians, just native Americans..... :wave: :D
there is such a thing as Indians
they come from India...
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So are you saying your love for Hawaiians is why you choose to live here for 25 years?
I'm a free man. I separated from the Air Force a year before I moved here. Why would I stayed because of many reasons, but if I hated Hawaiians, nothing else would have kept me here. I should not have wanted to raise my 4 and 7 year olds in a place where we were hated.
The rest of your response is regurgitated nonsense. It's old and doesn't coincide with logic or reality. It's all academic grandstanding.
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Congratulations for you!
However, not everyone who is majoring in computer science can replicate your success or think they can be the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs.
OMG! Is that your argument? Not everybody has equal talents or motivations? How is that even close to "Native Hawaiians are oppressed " ?? You just argued against your own narrative.
Aren't we taught that everyone is different and unique, and that we must find what we like and excel at on our own? I'm no Bruno Mars, and he's no C4IR programmer. You really have no point, do you?
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Do not confuse outliers, as being the norm or standard.
Just because the US had its first Black president, with debatable commentary of his success, does not mean there will be another Black president anytime soon nor it can said that Blacks now have an equal opportunity to life, similar to the White majority.
Confuse Outliers? They are examples of what a person of any race can do in Hawaii. Blacks have an equal opportunity in life? There are Black leaders & stars in athletics, government and business.
Q just painted me as a fucking racist. My point is that I'm not. I didnt come here with that in mind. I'm just pointing out that there are opportunities here for all races. It takes motivation and work. I'm not rich or highly educated but I could be far worse in any other country.
So whatever your beliefs, your colorful disagreements with my opinions that's fine. Been called a few names here from people on this site but trying to paint me as a fucking racist? None of you know me enough to try and paint me as such. Fuck you. Done.
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Do not confuse outliers, as being the norm or standard.
Just because the US had its first Black president, with debatable commentary of his success, does not mean there will be another Black president anytime soon nor it can said that Blacks now have an equal opportunity to life, similar to the White majority.
And just because one recent DC outsider made it to the Presidency is no guarantee another will or another will do as good a job.
You really don't have a point, other than you want to see equal outcomes for all rather than offer exceptional opportunities to exceptional people. I guarantee you, the exceptional people started out in most instances as ordinary people working their way toward something better.
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I'm a free man. I separated from the Air Force a year before I moved here. Why would I stayed because of many reasons, but if I hated Hawaiians, nothing else would have kept me here. I should not have wanted to raise my 4 and 7 year olds in a place where we were hated.
The rest of your response is regurgitated nonsense.
So say the in-the-closet admirer of President Barack Obama.
It's old and doesn't coincide with logic or reality.
Your opinion.
It's all academic grandstanding.
Look who's talking.
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And just because one recent DC outsider made it to the Presidency is no guarantee another will or another will do as good a job.
Exactly.
You really don't have a point, other than you want to see equal outcomes for all rather than offer exceptional opportunities to exceptional people.
No, I want the illegal occupation of Hawaii to end, so that Native Hawaiians have a chance of bettering themselves without the dictates of Washington DC.
I guarantee you, the exceptional people started out in most instances as ordinary people working their way toward something better.
Not arguing against that.
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So say the in-the-closet admirer of President Barack Obama.
Your opinion.
Look who's talking.
I can imagine you sticking your tongue out at the screen while typing those juvenile come backs. It never fails that your "debates" will eventually degrade into school yard insults.
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there is such a thing as Indians
they come from India...
Ah yes you are correct! Almost forgot about Gupta!
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You know the solution to this whole thing is you and yours need to become revolutionaries, take up arms against the imperialist U.S. dogs and take your islands back by force! Of course another option would be to convince America to leave and restore the Kingdom of Hawaii. Of course we’ll have restore everything and leave like we found it when Cook arrived. I’d vote for that! Then you could invite another country in to rebuild, like China, Russia, Iran, etc and things will be great again for good old Hawaii. Ahh but if you’re lucky, you can keep your kingdom but don’t count on it... deja vu will set in as they decide you can’t rule yourselves and.... we’ll you should know the outcome....
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Remember that everybody came from somewhere, including Polynesians to these islands...
True, but after domesticating these islands for over 1000 years, they developed specific genetic and cultural traits that made them uniquely kanaka maoli, or indigenous native Hawaiians to those who remain uneducated to the ways of the first peoples of these islands.
You know the solution to this whole thing is you and yours need to become revolutionaries, take up arms against the imperialist U.S. dogs and take your islands back by force! Of course another option would be to convince America to leave and restore the Kingdom of Hawaii. Of course we’ll have restore everything and leave like we found it when Cook arrived. I’d vote for that! Then you could invite another country in to rebuild, like China, Russia, Iran, etc and things will be great again for good old Hawaii. Ahh but if you’re lucky, you can keep your kingdom but don’t count on it... deja vu will set in as they decide you can’t rule yourselves and.... we’ll you should know the outcome....
See, This is a perfect example of the ignorance of transplants to these islands that give all non-indigenous or non-locals a bad name.
You continuously make statements that assert the Hawaiian people would go back to living in grass Shacks and pounding poi as a normal way of living. You probably have no idea how much the Hawaiian people have contributed to the world, because you apparently are a very close minded, ignorant individual.
You must not know that at one point in time, the nation of Hawaii was the most literate nation in the world, because everyone, to include the majority of the Hawaiian people, we're reading the Bible. You must also not know that Hawaii was the first country/state to have a printed newspaper west of the rockies, in both English and Hawaiian.
Ever heard of the civil war? The kingdom of Hawaii supplied most of the sugar that fed northern troops. And speaking of the civil war, did you know that Hawaiians of indigenous decent fought and died for the North?
I can go on and on about achievements had and contributions made by Hawaiians, but i doubt you could even process this information, due to how close minded you are about the first people's of these islands.
And technically, its the republic of Hawaii that would be restored, not the kingdom, as the kingdom was overthrown and abdicated, and what currently exists is the occupied nation of the Republic of Hawaii, due to the illegal annexation of these islands through joint resolution; same as How Texas is still legally the Republic of Texas, as the joint resolution to include Texas in the union was also illegal.
And You act like Hawaiians wouldn't be able to fight lol. Im proud to be almost half native Hawaiian. I went to a school designated for the indigenous peoples of this land. I volunteered to serve in military, and voluntarily requested to deploy to a real combat zone during my time of service, in which time i learned be tactically and technically proficient in warfighting disciplines. Best part of it all: there are thousands of Hawaiians just like me, if not better, and are also now making significant strides and contributions in fields that you likely would not even have the mental capacity to understand, so yeah...i think we'd be alright without your help, or your residency.
Please leave your Mahalo Rewards card at the door before leaving.
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I went to college under a 4-year Air Force ROTC Scholarship. There were 2 other 4-yr scholarship students in my class: a White woman and a Black woman.
I had passing SAT scores, a low A/high B average from high school. I worked 2-3 part time jobs in high school because my family was poor -- food stamps, free school lunches, etc.
I graduated college with a BA in Computer Science. The day I showed up for in-processing, I had $25 in my bank account and less than $20 on me. I walked out of the finance office with over $3000, and just 5 days until payday.
I made my choices, and life worked out very well for me.
Equal opportunity -- not equal outcome.
You forgot the part where you grew up in the ghetto/reservation/homestead that would allow you to justify how you know what's best for the indigenous people of Hawaii.
Most Hawaiians will never get an ROTC scholarship, let alone go to college, because the living conditions and educational environments that they are raised in do not promote self-empowerment, striving for excellence or pursuing intelligence, something that Hawaiians once did, but we suppressed from doing after the missionaries arrived; takes a lot to break a cycle when for hundreds of years, your identity is suppressed by foreigners forcing their lifestyle and beliefs on you, and stamping out most traces of your history and culture.
But please... continue to tell us how your access to resources, education and opportunities equates to or is eclipsed by what native Hawaiians and other indigenous people experience or have.
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True, but after domesticating these islands for over 1000 years, they developed specific genetic and cultural traits that made them uniquely kanaka maoli, or indigenous native Hawaiians to those who remain uneducated to the ways of the first peoples of these islands.
See, This is a perfect example of the ignorance of transplants to these islands that give all non-indigenous or non-locals a bad name.
You continuously make statements that assert the Hawaiian people would go back to living in grass Shacks and pounding poi as a normal way of living. You probably have no idea how much the Hawaiian people have contributed to the world, because you apparently are a very close minded, ignorant individual.
You must not know that at one point in time, the nation of Hawaii was the most literate nation in the world, because everyone, to include the majority of the Hawaiian people, we're reading the Bible. You must also not know that Hawaii was the first country/state to have a printed newspaper west of the rockies, in both English and Hawaiian.
Ever heard of the civil war? The kingdom of Hawaii supplied most of the sugar that fed northern troops. And speaking of the civil war, did you know that Hawaiians of indigenous decent fought and died for the North?
I can go on and on about achievements had and contributions made by Hawaiians, but i doubt you could even process this information, due to how close minded you are about the first people's of these islands.
And technically, its the republic of Hawaii that would be restored, not the kingdom, as the kingdom was overthrown and advocated, and what currently exists is the occupied nation of the Republic of Hawaii, due to the illegal annexation of these islands through joint resolution; same as How Texas is still legally the Republic of Texas, as the joint resolution to include Texas in the union was also illegal.
And You act like Hawaiians wouldn't be able to fight lol. Im proud to be almost half native Hawaiian. I went to a school designated for the indigenous peoples of this land. I volunteered to serve in military, and voluntarily requested to deploy to a real combat zone during my time of service, in which time i learned be tactically and technically proficient in warfighting disciplines. Best part of it all: there are thousands of Hawaiians just like me, if not better, and are also now making significant strides and contributions in fields that you likely would not even have the mental capacity to understand, so yeah...i think we'd be alright without your help, or your residency.
Please leave your Mahalo Rewards card at the door before leaving.
Hmmmm let’s see. Two combat tours in Vietnam with Navy Brown Water Navy, PBR’s for the ignorant. Wounded twice. Retired after 21 years as an E-8 as well as a Masters in CJ., as well as being a Distinquished Master Instructor with DOCARE HE Program. I guess I am the ignorant one for even acknowledging your childish diatribe. Whatever. Without addressing the rest of your B.S. all I can say is you’re a real funny guy and I’m amazed how you can get all you did from what I said. You should be on a variety show with those talents. You’re frigging awesome! Nuff of this BS. I wish you all the best of luck in your path leading to Hawaiian independence..... :wave:
I leave you with the the very predictable last word.
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Most Hawaiians will never get an ROTC scholarship, let alone go to college, because the living conditions and educational environments that they are raised in do not promote self-empowerment, striving for excellence or pursuing intelligence, something that Hawaiians once did, but we suppressed from doing after the missionaries arrived;
You could just shorten that to "Here's my victim card. Where do I get my EBT card and rent subsidies?"
I guess my assessment of Native Hawaiians' potential is unrealistically far above yours.
My bad. O0
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"a Masters in CJ"
Why then, with a Masters in CJ, do you not see the illegality of the occupation of Hawaii by the US? Could it be your blind loyalty to the US also blinds you to the crime that has been committed to Native Hawaiians?
Furthermore, with a legal background, why have you not try to disprove the illegality of the occupation of Hawaii by the US, using US Constitutional Law? Could it be you already know that the US can't legally annex any territory by a Joint Resolution by Congress, since that would fall under the auspices of the Department of the State; thereby, rendering the annexation of Hawaii illegal?
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You could just shorten that to "Here's my victim card. Where do I get my EBT card and rent subsidies?"
I guess my assessment of Native Hawaiians' potential is unrealistically far above yours.
My bad. O0
Nah no victim card. I'm actually a proponent of Hawaiians getting away from the victim mentality that is plaguing our progress as indigenous people and Americans.
I also don't have a problem discussing my points and lack of said victim in person. In my experience, People tend to act and talk differently when face to face and not hiding behind a computer screen; especially people from this forum.
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Nah no victim card. I'm actually a proponent of Hawaiians getting away from the victim mentality that is plaguing our progress as indigenous people and Americans.
I also don't have a problem discussing my points and lack of said victim in person. In my experience, People tend to act and talk differently when face to face and not hiding behind a computer screen; especially people from this forum.
You and I have met -- more than once.
You still using that lawn mower I hauled across the island to give you? :shaka:
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You and I have met -- more than once.
You still using that lawn mower I gave you? :shaka:
Nope, actually crapped out after a few uses. Probably should have just cut my grass with the 54r I traded :rofl:
You also weren't openly disrespectful of the demographic that Im apart of; guess the internet tends to do that to people, which is why situations like this are precisely why individuals like Kuleana and myself are happy to talk to people about these and other issues regarding Hawaiian history and the current population in person, just as he and I did following the days when we would go at it on This forum.
But like i stated: when in person, people tend to change their demeanor and tone when a computer screen doesnt divide them. We have both noticed that no one has anything to say to him when he encounters them in public, yet have a lot to say to and about him on this forum.
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Nope, actually crapped out after a few uses. Probably should have just cut my grass with the 54r I traded :rofl:
You also weren't openly disrespectful of the demographic that Im apart of; guess the internet tends to do that to people, which is why situations like this are precisely why individuals like Kuleana and myself are happy to talk to people about these and other issues regarding Hawaiian history and the current population in person, just as he and I did following the days when we would go at it on This forum.
But like i stated: when in person, people tend to change their demeanor and tone when a computer screen doesnt divide them. We have both noticed that no one has anything to say to him when he encounters them in public, yet have a lot to say to and about him on this forum.
If you were using ethanol gas, that's what killed it the first time I had to tear it apart. Had to clean out the fuel ports and injectors.
I started using non-ethanol gas, since there's a station that sells it in Waipio. Really makes a difference. My mower hasn't had those clogged fuel port problems since.
I find it interesting that you characterize what I post as "disrespectful of a demographic" simply because I have a different opinion than you. I give Hawaiians as much respect as anyone else. In my world, there is no difference in the potential one can achieve if they only make the right decisions and work as hard as they can for that goal -- whatever goal that might be.
You and Kuleana, on the other hand, seem to have an attitude that Native Hawaiians have been somehow stripped of any reason to try to make a better life. Kuleana seems to think this can only be remedied by Hawaiians being given sovereignty over themselves again. -- that somehow that'll make everyone motivated and thirstier for education. It sounds like you might also share that belief.
And it's not all Hawaiian-born locals you're including in that assessment. it's only Native Hawaiians. Somehow all other ethnicities -- Japanese, Filipino, Samoan, Caucasians, and African Americans -- are predisposed to doing better because they, unlike Native Hawaiians, didn't suffer from their Kingdom being taken away from them? Is that how you analyze the situation?
I would really like to know if that's how you think -- that only Native Hawaiians have "educational environments that they are raised in do not promote self-empowerment, striving for excellence or pursuing intelligence", but all others born and raised in Hawaii have been able to find that for themselves?
It doesn't make any sense that the indigenous population from not even a century ago lost all of that, but the people making Hawaii their home are able to find those things. You're almost arguing that there's a genetic or cultural characteristic that's unique to Native Hawaiians that either prevents them from taking advantage of the opportunities others find, or they are incapable of competing with for opportunities.
I have the mindset of "don't forget where you came from, but don't let that limit where you can go."
Everyone has to adapt. Your posts sound like you don't think "your demographic" is capable of adapting and thriving in a world outside of one controlled by a Hawaiian-only government.
If you think a valid argument for my opinion is, "You're a racist," then I guess we'll have to leave the discussion for just you Native Hawaiians and forget about trying to understand each other.
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I was trying to stay out of this but what the hell here's my 1 cent.
Background:
Born and Raised.
Went to Waimanalo High School. (Aka Kailua H.S.)
Local Haole
I don't want to quote everything but Flapp, you said yor family was on foodstamps and free school lunch, so they signed up for the EBT card and reduced rent and it helped you apparently. You were a recipient of the handouts you rail against. (Way I see it.)
A lot of guys went into the service to get ahead.
Took government handout offering their lives in return to get out or get ahead. Pretty extreme.
(MrGaf: Vietnam, Korea, WWII excepted.)
Hawaiians institutionally kept down. Bullpucky.
More opportunity in Hawaii than many. Except those that continue the cycle.
How many Kamehameha (or Punahou) (or anywhere) educated Hawaiians who became successful economically contributed back to the community with financial investment in native Hawaiian startups?
Not community centers, but legitimate let's get this business going and employ more native Hawaiians who go out start another business and employ more people. Etc..
(Phil-Am model ? )
As a Haole in public school, you want to talk discrimination?
I lived through kill Haole day. Legend? Bullshit.
(Guys who transplanted have no idea and a totally different perspective of local. Fit in as an adult is one thing. Fit in as a young kid is totally different.)
Drive by a public school when it gets out after school. How many white kids you see? Not many in Aiea.
Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders getting more athletic scholarships than ever to good colleges.
They even have a way better advantage to get academic scholarships to college than white or Asian kids.
Not to mention way better FAFSA benefits if they're from a household like Flapp's was.
Illegal annexation. Yup, no question.
Ship has sailed.
Plus U.S. Of America was built on illegal cessation if I'm not mistaken.
Illegal cessation for Hawaiian sovereignty may be the only answer at this point.
The will. Yes. The means. No.
Great Mahele.
Abolishment of Kapu system.
Not forced by white guys. ( manipulated......)
Great Mahele under the Hawaiian Kingdom was beginning of the end.
The arrow points 2 ways.
The Monarchy of Hawaii failed Native Hawaiians miserably.
( didn't count on the greed and manipulation of whites, arguably. But as you state, the Hawaiian Monarchs were educated and not naive)
Bishop, Campbell, Castle, Cooke, Damon... Where's the Hawaiian names associated with the Estates? All married Haole or were gifted lands by Hawaiian Monarchs.
Oh, and Dept of Interior came before 2014. before 2006.
They Asked about nation within a nation and said before testimony they would not entertain sovereignty but were open to any discussion of setting up nation within a nation and talks for Native Hawaiian autonomous government structures. Almost every person got up and shouted sovereignty. DOI packed their bags and left. Watched it on TV on some court channel with my dad.
2014 was the second attempt.
P.S.
Is it really that bad living in the U.S of A. ?
Or is it kind of what the Monarchs and constitutional government of Hawaii was aiming at?
I'm curious and ignorant on the specifics.
What special protections did the Kingdom's constitutional government / Monarchy have for the native Hawaiian people, which excluded the non-native Hawaiian citizens?
(Real question)
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You and Kuleana, on the other hand, seem to have an attitude that Native Hawaiians have been somehow stripped of any reason to try to make a better life. Kuleana seems to think this can only be remedied by Hawaiians being given sovereignty over themselves again. -- that somehow that'll make everyone motivated and thirstier for education. It sounds like you might also share that belief.
When the Americans illegally annexed Hawaii in 1898, they immediately began a program of denationalization, a war crime by-the-way, that eradicated much of the culture, language, and history of Native Hawaiians in an effort to ensure future generations be ignorant and accepting of American rule. Native Hawaiians of later generations were raised believing that it was the US that brought much of Hawaii into the 20th Century and that they were doomed to being a pre-contact primitive society, if not for the US. This is, of course, a false narrative, as Q pointed out. Hawaii prior to the overthrow and annexation was one of the most literate and progressive nations in the World. Keep in mind it had a Constitution modeled after the US, which all Hawaiian subjects at that time shared similar to their counterparts in the US.
The problems Hawaiians face today can trace their roots to the exact date when the Americans took over Hawaii. Although, the US has tried to improve this socio-economical condition of Hawaiians via federal monies towards human services and education, it is obvious that millions of dollars later it has and will not work. Consequently, one must rationalize that only by returning the nation they occupy is the only and last viable way to address this situation.
And it's not all Hawaiian-born locals you're including in that assessment. it's only Native Hawaiians. Somehow all other ethnicities -- Japanese, Filipino, Samoan, Caucasians, and African Americans -- are predisposed to doing better because they, unlike Native Hawaiians, didn't suffer from their Kingdom being taken away from them? Is that how you analyze the situation?
How can you even ask that question sincerely? Are you familiar with what happened to the South after the American Civil War? After being left in turmoil, many Northerners started appearing and began looting the place and getting rich beyond their dreams, while many Southerners had to live in near poverty during those reconstruction years. The difference between that example and Hawaii is that those Northerners eventually went away and allowed Southerners to ultimately run their own affairs and benefit the wealth of their endeavors. Native Hawaiians, on the other hand, had to not only compete with the many transplanted Americans, but also the many foreign immigrants that were let into their nation. How could Native Hawaiians survive under those circumstances?
I would really like to know if that's how you think -- that only Native Hawaiians have "educational environments that they are raised in do not promote self-empowerment, striving for excellence or pursuing intelligence", but all others born and raised in Hawaii have been able to find that for themselves?
It doesn't make any sense that the indigenous population from not even a century ago lost all of that, but the people making Hawaii their home are able to find those things. You're almost arguing that there's a genetic or cultural characteristic that's unique to Native Hawaiians that either prevents them from taking advantage of the opportunities others find, or they are incapable of competing with for opportunities.
You can not imagine the psychological damage that Native Hawaiians today share in knowing how their nation was taken away from them. Living in this condition definitely affects one's ability to learn and survive in a nation that they no longer control. All these other Hawaii-born immigrants do not suffer or live with that history, since their predecessors all headed to Hawaii with the full purpose of making a better life. Given the psychology and motivations of the different populations, it becomes clear which ethnic groups had and will do better socio-economically in the long-term.
I have the mindset of "don't forget where you came from, but don't let that limit where you can go."
Everyone has to adapt. Your posts sound like you don't think "your demographic" is capable of adapting and thriving in a world outside of one controlled by a Hawaiian-only government.
See above.
If you think a valid argument for my opinion is, "You're a racist," then I guess we'll have to leave the discussion for just you Native Hawaiians and forget about trying to understand each other.
Your opinion on this issue is very naïve and ignorant, especially in fully understanding the conditions Native Hawaiians face in their own land and being ruled by an illegal power. However, I do postulate that you would feel similarly, if you were Native Hawaiian.
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Your opinion on this issue is very naïve and ignorant, especially in fully understanding the conditions Native Hawaiians face in their own land and being ruled by an illegal power. However, I do postulate that you would feel similarly, if you were Native Hawaiian.
And there we have it in a nutshell: Native Hawaiians are being oppressed by their own feelings, not some institutional bigotry or discrimination. These feeling are being propagated from parents and teachers to children through their anger over the illegal annexation of the Hawaiian Kingdom.
Excuses. Rationalizations. Cop-outs. Reasons. Just like slavery, nobody other than yourselves can fix how you feel.
Feelings have no power over you unless you permit them to. I learned this in elementary school when bullies tried to make me feel bad about myself. Negative comments don't matter if you don't let them.
But, hey, what do I know? "Hawaii isn't the mainland."
I know what the fix is, but I'm too "naive and ignorant" to actually know what I'm saying. Let's just say, you can't blame how you feel on others. Well, you can -- but in the end, who does it really hurt?
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That may be true for the low educated, welfare dependent Hawaiians. However, that is not true for a great number of other Hawaiians who are aware of the illegality of the US occupation of Hawaii based on US Constitutional law. Have you seen the US Department of Interior hearings that were conducted to see whether Hawaiians were willing to be recognized to be a nation within a nation in 2014? You can do a search on YouTube on those hearings and see for yourself what the preponderance of the Hawaiian responses were.
Most of those hearings did not make into the mainstream media, by-the-way, due to the overwhelming pro-restoration sentiment of the Hawaiian populous.
Okay, I understand what you meant regarding irrelevancy under the law and occupation.
However, when I referenced handouts and getting on the list I was strictly referring to the Hawaiian Homelands list and home handout. You see every native Hawaiian I know here on this island works in either construction or tech. And they all make a living wage or better. And all are on the list or are already living in a Hawaiian Homeland home. So when I said “handout” this is what I was referring to and not the “low educated, welfare dependent Hawaiians”. So tell me why then do the native Hawaiians I know who are doing well for themselves are not concerned with the illegal occupation? I realize that I am just seeing a small slice of the native population but this has been my experience since living on this island.
So this leads me to a few more questions. How much of the population in percentage is actually native Hawaiian? And of that percentage what percentage actually is active in trying to get back to the Hawaiian Republic? Is there a copy of the Hawaiian constitution online that I can read?
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Is there a copy of the Hawaiian constitution online that I can read?
http://lrbhawaii.org/con/conart1.html
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http://lrbhawaii.org/con/conart1.html
I meant the Hawaiian Republic constitution. Not the state of Hawaii constitution. I want to see how the republic is going to be setup if the U.S. relinquishes Hawaii back to the native Hawaiians.
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I meant the Hawaiian Republic constitution. Not the state of Hawaii constitution. I want to see how the republic is going to be setup if the U.S. relinquishes Hawaii back to the native Hawaiians.
Wikipedia lists 10 Sovereignty and cultural rights organizations in Hawaii. You'll have to specify which group's Constitution you want, assuming that group even has one drafted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_sovereignty_movement
The last official Republic of Hawaii Constitution was dated 1892.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015062354827;view=1up;seq=5
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https://www.hawaii-nation.org/constitution-1893.html
http://hawaiiankingdom.org/blog/the-1887-bayonet-constitution-the-beginning-of-the-insurgency/
https://www.nationalgeographic.org/thisday/jul6/bayonet-constitution/
http://www.hawaiihistory.org/index.cfm%3Ffuseaction%3Dig.page%26PageID%3D285%26returntoname%3Dyear%25201840
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Okay, I understand what you meant regarding irrelevancy under the law and occupation.
However, when I referenced handouts and getting on the list I was strictly referring to the Hawaiian Homelands list and home handout. You see every native Hawaiian I know here on this island works in either construction or tech. And they all make a living wage or better. And all are on the list or are already living in a Hawaiian Homeland home. So when I said “handout” this is what I was referring to and not the “low educated, welfare dependent Hawaiians”. So tell me why then do the native Hawaiians I know who are doing well for themselves are not concerned with the illegal occupation? I realize that I am just seeing a small slice of the native population but this has been my experience since living on this island.
It is not surprising to see some Native Hawaiians who are opposed or neutral of the illegal occupation of Hawaii by the US. The most obvious reason for well-to-do Hawaiians who share those views are that politics is not their thing, only money. For example, where there people in China who were making money during Japan's occupation of their country during WWII? The answer is yes, and those Chinese could have cared less if the Japanese stayed in China for the next 100 years, as long as they were still making money. But you know what those kind of people are called right? TRAITORS.
Another possible reason is because they, themselves, are still ignorant of the events leading to the illegal annexation of Hawaii, due to not having access to all the facts. It has only been in the last decade or so, when it became mainstream in Native Hawaiian scholarly circles that the US violated their own US Constitution in their take over of Hawaii.
The third possible reason is that they consciously chose to be Americans and let me say that THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. That is their choice, but their decision is irrelevant and have no legal bearing to those Hawaiians who want the US occupation to end.
So this leads me to a few more questions. How much of the population in percentage is actually native Hawaiian?
I personally do not know for sure. I would look at the latest US Census data or to the population reports from OHA for that information.
And of that percentage what percentage actually is active in trying to get back to the Hawaiian Republic?
That number will be difficult to find, as to my knowledge, there has been no official data collected to that effect.
The best official gauge can be seen in many hearings asking if Hawaiians wanted to have a "nation within a nation" by the US Department of Interior. The overwhelming response recorded in those hearings being an absolute NO, WE WANT OUR NATION BACK!
Is there a copy of the Hawaiian constitution online that I can read?
I am sure all versions of the constitutions of the Hawaiian Kingdom and Republic are accessible online.
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I have questions.
I met someone who lives on Hawaiian Homelands and pays a reduced mortgage. It seems like it's the only real benefit of having official Native Hawaiian status AFAIK. I'm not an expert but this is what I remember from the conversation IIRC. You have to have 50% or more ancestry to qualify. He explained that he's allowed to pass on his ancestry to one child. Two of his children are on the mainland so the third is expected to inherit the HH house. That seems messed up to me. How does one child inherit an ancestry but the rest do not? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_home_land
If the Hawaiians get their sovereignty back and kick out all of the haoles, what about all of the Japanese, Chinese, Filipinos, (East) Indians, etc.? Technically, aren't they all haoles? Can they participate in the government? Who gets to decide who participates and who doesn't?
Would the sovereign monarchy adopt a 2nd Amendment? Considering there's no casinos or recreational marijuana here, probably not.
Would the Japanese have attacked PH if the US stayed out of Hawaii? I doubt it considering the close proximity the island has to the mainland coast. They probably woulda invaded and enslave/murder the population like they did to the Philippines. I don't believe a treaty woulda protected the Hawaiians.
The courts said non-Hawaiians can participate in the OHA election. I originally read through the statements and picked the "reasonable" responses like in the OP. Afterwards I decided it wasn't my business. Not a question, just my opinion. It's nice to know that I have the option in the future to participate with my vote if I wanted.
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I'm not too familiar with the Hawaiian sovereignty movement, but I can't see any successful outcome from sovereignty. This isn't to put down those that want sovereignty but I don't think anything was well thought out. Every sovereignty group wants something different and can't agree on anything. So no matter the path is taken, none of them will be satisfied and will continue fighting each other while their people languish like the Indian people on drugs and in poverty.
What kind of government will there be? Dictatorship? Democracy? I can't imagine a functioning Hawaiian government that won't be corrupted or abused. Just look at how OHA turned out.
What will the economy be like? A lot of our economy comes from the Federal and military funds, tourism, mainland and foreign investment, etc. All the stuff that a lot of Hawaiians hate. Build casino's like the Indian tribes?
Is it about the blood or the culture? Do you discriminate against someone that is 10% Hawaiian versus 100%? Some non-Hawaiians practice Hawaiian culture while some Hawaiians don't know anything about their culture.
Who provides national defense? Do they look to the US and western world to help defend them from foreign invaders?
All lands were invaded and conquered many times in history. King Kamehameha illegally conquered the islands. The American way of life is the best in the world and I'm sure the Hawaiian Kingdom would've continued to adopt the western culture and be more or less where everyone is at now.
The best thing would be for the Hawaiian people to unite and move on. Hawaiians need education and the will to succeed. Why can't we have more Kamehameha schools? That seems to be very successful.
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I work with many small business owners. The typical situation is a small warehouse with an office in the back, horrible parking, auntie running the office, haole running the business, and about ten locals doing the work. There's a few locals running the businesses but not many. It takes a certain type of person who is willing to risk their financial well being to maintain a business. I hope that this will change in the coming years and more locals will become business owners, i.e. American capitalists.
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I'm not too familiar with the Hawaiian sovereignty movement, but I can't see any successful outcome from sovereignty. This isn't to put down those that want sovereignty but I don't think anything was well thought out. Every sovereignty group wants something different and can't agree on anything. So no matter the path is taken, none of them will be satisfied and will continue fighting each other while their people languish like the Indian people on drugs and in poverty.
What kind of government will there be? Dictatorship? Democracy? I can't imagine a functioning Hawaiian government that won't be corrupted or abused. Just look at how OHA turned out.
What will the economy be like? A lot of our economy comes from the Federal and military funds, tourism, mainland and foreign investment, etc. All the stuff that a lot of Hawaiians hate. Build casino's like the Indian tribes?
Is it about the blood or the culture? Do you discriminate against someone that is 10% Hawaiian versus 100%? Some non-Hawaiians practice Hawaiian culture while some Hawaiians don't know anything about their culture.
Who provides national defense? Do they look to the US and western world to help defend them from foreign invaders?
All lands were invaded and conquered many times in history. King Kamehameha illegally conquered the islands. The American way of life is the best in the world and I'm sure the Hawaiian Kingdom would've continued to adopt the western culture and be more or less where everyone is at now.
The best thing would be for the Hawaiian people to unite and move on. Hawaiians need education and the will to succeed. Why can't we have more Kamehameha schools? That seems to be very successful.
Because entitled people (like several individuals on this forum) are against the idea of individuals leaving their personal assets and resources to be utilized to support a specific demographic of people that doesn't include said individuals, so they do everything in their power to destroy such institutions as the Kamehameha Schools, likely out of envy that the benefactor didn't include them or their demographic.
If it was government resources, then yes... totally immoral and likely illegal. But to attack institutions supported by funding provided by the estate of a private benefactor seems really petty and morally obtuse, given the level of talk individuals make about personal freedom and liberty.
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But to attack institutions supported by funding provided by the estate of a private benefactor seems really petty and morally obtuse, given the level of talk individuals make about personal freedom and liberty.
If you're referring to Todd, I think he was doing the opposite of attacking the school.
Speaking of Bernice Pauahi Bishop, she seems to be the epitome of Hawaiian integration into American culture. Royalty, married to a missionary, church organist, eventual owner of 9% of Hawaiian land, and responsible for the creation of the greatest Hawaiian school ever.
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I have questions.
If the Hawaiians get their sovereignty back and kick out all of the haoles, what about all of the Japanese, Chinese, Filipinos, (East) Indians, etc.? Technically, aren't they all haoles? Can they participate in the government? Who gets to decide who participates and who doesn't?
First of all, why are you presuming that the first order of business of a restored Hawaii nation is to deport all non-Hawaiians? Please remember that the Kingdom of Hawaii as well as the Republic of Hawaii were a multi-ethnic nation. Any talk of mass deportations is legally inconsistent to what Hawaii was prior to the illegal annexation by the US.
As to your question in regards to participation in the new government, the answer is simple, only citizens of the restored Hawaii. Those individuals who can legally trace their genealogy to a descendant that was a citizen of the Kingdom or Hawaii or the short-lived Republic of Hawaii will organically be allowed full citizenship. All other individual who legally entered and have lived in Hawaii after the illegal annexation of Hawaii in 1898 would be considered foreign visitors to Hawaii, who naturally can apply for permanent residency and/or naturalized citizenship, similar in process by most other nations like the US.
Would the sovereign monarchy adopt a 2nd Amendment? Considering there's no casinos or recreational marijuana here, probably not.
What makes you think a restored Hawaii would not adopt something similar to the Bill of Rights? The constitutions of both the Kingdom of Hawaii and the Republic of Hawaii were tremendously influenced and incorporated much from the US Constitution.
With respect to the 2nd Amendment, Native Hawaiians come from a war-driven culture that has transcended to the many hunters and gun enthusiasts among the Native Hawaiian population today. There is no hard evidence to indicate that most Native Hawaiians currently are passionately anti-firearms.
Would the Japanese have attacked PH if the US stayed out of Hawaii? I doubt it considering the close proximity the island has to the mainland coast. They probably woulda invaded and enslave/murder the population like they did to the Philippines. I don't believe a treaty woulda protected the Hawaiians.
There was no evidence that the Japanese wanted to go to war with the US. In fact, the attack in Pearl Harbor was to cripple the US Navy so it could not interfere with Japan's regional plans of conquering all of Asia. Let's not forget, that the majority of the Imperial Japanese army was fighting and garrisoning its occupied territories in Asia. Japan did not and would not have the manpower to take on the US.
Would Japan invade a neutral Hawaii? Possibly, but more likely the US would try and take over Hawaii first, as an imperial precautionary measure to create a Pacific buffer just-in-case. In either case, the threat of invasion by the US or Japan would be a real possibility.
The courts said non-Hawaiians can participate in the OHA election. I originally read through the statements and picked the "reasonable" responses like in the OP. Afterwards I decided it wasn't my business. Not a question, just my opinion. It's nice to know that I have the option in the future to participate with my vote if I wanted.
I, as a Native Hawaiian, dislike OHA and the crony dominated ways of taking US Federal money and giving it recklessly to initiatives that has not proven to help Native Hawaiians, as clearly evidenced in the low socio-economic well-being most Native Hawaiians live under today.
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Mahalo nui for the responses.
It’s hard to imagine the dissolution of the US government in Hawaii without serious animosity between the native Hawaiians and the US citizens.
I agree that Japan was not interested in occupying the Oceanic nations. They were interested in the Australian oil fields after first going through Indo-China and the Philippines. The Oceanic nations were a staging port to block the US fleet from defending our allies. Fortunately the fleet was able to stop the invaders at Port Moresby and Midway.
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I'm not too familiar with the Hawaiian sovereignty movement, but I can't see any successful outcome from sovereignty. This isn't to put down those that want sovereignty but I don't think anything was well thought out. Every sovereignty group wants something different and can't agree on anything. So no matter the path is taken, none of them will be satisfied and will continue fighting each other while their people languish like the Indian people on drugs and in poverty.
Many of the so-called sovereignty groups are not basing their direction of what should be done on constitutional grounds. Many forget that the monarchy and the short-lived Republic of Hawaii had a constitution. Consequently, based on a legal perspective, the way the government of a restored Hawaii would function and elect its officials would be based on those laws.
What kind of government will there be? Dictatorship? Democracy? I can't imagine a functioning Hawaiian government that won't be corrupted or abused. Just look at how OHA turned out.
Once the illegal occupation ends, the Hawaii government would legally revert back to what it looked like in 1898, that being a democratic republic.
Your references to OHA is invalid. OHA was an entity created and funded by the US. You can't use something like OHA and extrapolate that how a restored Hawaii government would behave.
What will the economy be like? A lot of our economy comes from the Federal and military funds, tourism, mainland and foreign investment, etc. All the stuff that a lot of Hawaiians hate. Build casino's like the Indian tribes?
Other than federal monies from the US, much of Hawaii's economy would still be the same. To make-up the short-fall of federal monies, would said Hawaii could not lease part of those lands once held by the US during the occupation, to the US or some other nation for cash, gold, or some other needed economic commodity?
Is it about the blood or the culture? Do you discriminate against someone that is 10% Hawaiian versus 100%? Some non-Hawaiians practice Hawaiian culture while some Hawaiians don't know anything about their culture.
Neither, it is about citizenship. Only those individuals who can trace their genealogy to someone that was a legal citizen of the Kingdom of Hawaii or Republic of Hawaii would legally be offered full citizenship to the new Hawaii nation.
Who provides national defense? Do they look to the US and western world to help defend them from foreign invaders?
Hawaii was a internationally recognized neutral nation much like Switzerland, prior to the illegal annexation by the US. Consequently, the national defense of a neutral Hawaii would be the responsibility of all citizens. That would require all citizens to be capable to defend the nation; hence, be knowledgeable on the conduct of war and proficient with firearms. :geekdanc:
It reality, the only nation Hawaii needs to fear of being taken over is the US, as the US has partaken in most of the illegal invasion of sovereign nations since the 1980's.
All lands were invaded and conquered many times in history. King Kamehameha illegally conquered the islands. The American way of life is the best in the world and I'm sure the Hawaiian Kingdom would've continued to adopt the western culture and be more or less where everyone is at now.
True, but at least, the citizens of Hawaii would be the ones to make that decision on their free-will and not forced upon them by another imperial power.
The best thing would be for the Hawaiian people to unite and move on. Hawaiians need education and the will to succeed. Why can't we have more Kamehameha schools? That seems to be very successful.
Different historical context. Because there was only one Princess Pauahi Bishop who had the insight to set aside money to take care of her people and prepare them to survive in their illegally occupied nation.
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Mahalo nui for the responses.
It’s hard to imagine the dissolution of the US government in Hawaii without serious animosity between the native Hawaiians and the US citizens.
For the first generation, I totally agree it would be a tremendous challenge no different to the American-born British colonists, who fought for their independence from their homeland.
However, relations will heal over time as can be seen today between the US and the UK.
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It's interesting that you mention both the Monarchy era and the post-overthrow Republic, which the U.S.A. had a significant part in with gunships in the harbor and Marines on the ground backing the usurpers, as both legitimate.
Is that based on legal arguments about annexation being illegal but acknowledging the overthrow as legal (like the American, French, Chinese, Russian, etc revolutions) ?
The Republic wasn't run by Hawaiians, if I'm not mistaken. Sanford B. Dole was the President.
Both eras had Constitutions but pretty different Constitutions in assigning power and rights.
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In the age of ICBM and satellites, it’s unlikely that a foreign power (or the US) would invade the islands again. Wouldn’t have the same issues that Vietnam and Philippines has with China.
With the economy, we can look at how well (or not) the Philippines has faired since the end of WW2. Their government is a wreck. Marcos was a maniacal dictator and Duterte is about the same but at least they get the trains to run on time. The economy is going gangbusters because there’s little taxes and the Chinese are buying everything to the detriment of its citizens. That can be an advantage or disadvantage depending on what you want from your government. The cost living is cheap but forget about getting a decent internet service.
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For the first generation, I totally agree it would be a tremendous challenge no different to the American-born British colonists, who fought for their independence from their homeland.
However, relations will heal over time as can be seen today between the US and the UK.
Or maybe the current relationship between the US and Puerto Rico...
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It's interesting that you mention both the Monarchy era and the post-overthrow Republic, which the U.S.A. had a significant part in with gunships in the harbor and Marines on the ground backing the usurpers, as both legitimate.
Is that based on legal arguments about annexation being illegal but acknowledging the overthrow as legal (like the American, French, Chinese, Russian, etc revolutions) ?
The Republic wasn't run by Hawaiians, if I'm not mistaken. Sanford B. Dole was the President.
You are absolutely correct.
The overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy was illegal, if one defines a revolution or popular revolt as being supported or backed by the majority of a nation's people. If one accepts this interpretation, then the legitimate government of Hawaii resides with the Kingdom of Hawaii.
However, other legal scholars do have historical precedent to say that you do not need a majority of a nation's people to stage a legitamate revolution of their government, as in the case of the British colonies in America, where roughly 1/3 of the population were in favor of separating from their homeland; another 1/3 were pro-British; and the remaining 1/3 were apathetic. If one accepts this interpretation, then the legitatimate government of Hawaii was the Republic of Hawaii headed by Sanford Dole.
Consequently, as you noticed, I have recognized the possible legitimacy of of both political entities and have done so in all of my posts in this thread.
Regardless, however, the fact that the US illegally annexed and is currently occupying Hawaii is not in dispute.
Both eras had Constitutions but pretty different Constitutions in assigning power and rights.
If I am not mistaken, the legal writing in the Constitution of the Republic of Hawaii seemed more concerned with legitimizing their hold on power and trying to exclude non-white citizens from political power.
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In the age of ICBM and satellites, it’s unlikely that a foreign power (or the US) would invade the islands again. Wouldn’t have the same issues that Vietnam and Philippines has with China.
With the economy, we can look at how well (or not) the Philippines has faired since the end of WW2. Their government is a wreck. Marcos was a maniacal dictator and Duterte is about the same but at least they get the trains to run on time. The economy is going gangbusters because there’s little taxes and the Chinese are buying everything to the detriment of its citizens. That can be an advantage or disadvantage depending on what you want from your government. The cost living is cheap but forget about getting a decent internet service.
As you know, Marcos was an American puppet dictator that allowed America to do whatever it wanted in his country.
President Duterte, on the other hand, is not an American stooge, and has achieved great strives to curb the drugs in his country and get much needed foreign investment from China to modernize the infrastructure of his cities; something the friendship with the US refused to do, since WWII.
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It's interesting that you mention both the Monarchy era and the post-overthrow Republic, which the U.S.A. had a significant part in with gunships in the harbor and Marines on the ground backing the usurpers, as both legitimate.
Is that based on legal arguments about annexation being illegal but acknowledging the overthrow as legal (like the American, French, Chinese, Russian, etc revolutions) ?
The Republic wasn't run by Hawaiians, if I'm not mistaken. Sanford B. Dole was the President.
Both eras had Constitutions but pretty different Constitutions in assigning power and rights.
Dole was a Hawaiian citizen, born and raised in the islands. He spoke fluent Hawaiian, and actually cared deeply for the Hawaiian people. People (to include most native Hawaiians) do not know that it was actually Sanford B Dole that came up with the idea of the Hawaiian Homestead, and all the credit is given to Jonah Kuhio. Dole, however, was extremely racist towards Asians.
The overthrow of the Hawaiian kingdom was conducted primarily buy Hawaiian citizens. Depending on how one looks at the situation, it can be considered either a revolution, or because it was to the benefit of a small demographic of Hawaiian citizens and not the overall populous, considered an insurrection. The United states did not have anything to do with the overthrow directly. The Ambassador who aided in the overthrow acted on his own accord and without the approval of either the president or Congress. This is why I always tell people that the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom was technically only illegal to the government of the Hawaiian Kingdom, and no one else in the world really cared because it was a a revolution/insurrection being conducted by its own citizens. This is no different than all the British colonies of the Americas revolted against the crown, how the Russian and Chinese Communist revolted against their governments, so on and so forth.
However, annexation of the Republic of Hawaii into the Union as a territory, and eventually as a state in 1959, was completely illegal under United States constitutional law, given that a sovereign state cannot be admitted into the Union without the approval of Congress. Texas served as the example as to how Hawaii could be admitted into the Union via joint resolution, therefore bypassing the Constitutional requirements legally needed. This is why legally the Republic of Texas and the Republic of Hawaii are considered occupied Nations under constitutional law, and are therefore the only true independent sovereign states still remaining within the Union, and furthermore are technically the only states that should be able to secede from the Union and this day in age.
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As you mention, the Republic of Texas was independent for 10 years. It didn't turn out well. Most States have a division or secession movement within. Calexit almost became a reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States#1980s%E2%80%93present_efforts
I believe we are more a citizen of the State we reside in rather than a citizen of the Nation. Personally, I think if a State wanted to go it alone, more power to them. They can always come back as a prodigal son. Meanwhile, everyone will be hording the newly minted currency as a collector item. I concede that the Civil War was a bit more complicated.
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I tried to google this and there are numerous documents. All different. Since no one is able or willing to provide to me the exact way the government is going to be set up and run if Hawaii is given back to the native Hawaiians then I believe no one in their right mind would want this to happen. Except those in power. No one here can show that it won’t be a dictatorship so if I were going to live here I would vote against this happening. And I believe any native Hawaiian that would not be in power would also feel the same way. I believe that this is the fallacy in this whole subject. The only people who stand to gain anything are the people who are going to run the government or the people who have the strongest army. The potential subjects or citizens of the new government will never want this to occur without knowing how it will be set up prior to happening. To believe anything else without a constitution ready to be deployed is not reality IMHO.
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Agreed. Most non-US, developing countries (including the potential future Kingdom of Hawaii, IMHO) are based on a system of "do you know who I am?"-ism. Want to buy something, walk into the bank and tell the banker "Do you know who I am?" Perhaps I know someone important or perhaps I don't but will the banker risk it. Want special access to someone's property or event, ask "Do you know who I am?" and see if they cave. This kind of attitude lasts about 2 seconds in the US. I always appreciate the rights and freedoms we have here. Hell, whenever I listen to CBC radio, I'm glad I'm not a Canadian because their government will shit all over their citizen's rights... and they're supposed to be the apologetic nation.
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As you mention, the Republic of Texas was independent for 10 years. It didn't turn out well. Most States have a division or secession movement within. Calexit almost became a reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States#1980s%E2%80%93present_efforts
I believe we are more a citizen of the State we reside in rather than a citizen of the Nation. Personally, I think if a State wanted to go it alone, more power to them. They can always come back as a prodigal son. Meanwhile, everyone will be hording the newly minted currency as a collector item. I concede that the Civil War was a bit more complicated.
It also took America 242 years to get to where it is today. Not sure why everyone thinks that a nation needs overnight perfection to be successful. It took the Hawaiian kingdom several decades to rise to the small stature it once had, so a good comparison on if an independent Hawaii, Texas or any other state would be to gauge it rise or fall in the same timeframe as America's.
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I tried to google this and there are numerous documents. All different. Since no one is able or willing to provide to me the exact way the government is going to be set up and run if Hawaii is given back to the native Hawaiians then I believe no one in their right mind would want this to happen. Except those in power. No one here can show that it won’t be a dictatorship so if I were going to live here I would vote against this happening. And I believe any native Hawaiian that would not be in power would also feel the same way. I believe that this is the fallacy in this whole subject. The only people who stand to gain anything are the people who are going to run the government or the people who have the strongest army. The potential subjects or citizens of the new government will never want this to occur without knowing how it will be set up prior to happening. To believe anything else without a constitution ready to be deployed is not reality IMHO.
How do you know America won't result in a totalitarian government in the near or distant future? Have we experienced an increase or decline in freedom and liberty over the past 50-100 years?
And the only people who stand to gain anything are those who put in the effort to make the necessary changes. Hawaii isn't the way it is because people didn't do anything, but rather because specific individuals and organizations were relentless to obtain their goals.
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Agreed. Most non-US, developing countries (including the potential future Kingdom of Hawaii, IMHO) are based on a system of "do you know who I am?"-ism. Want to buy something, walk into the bank and tell the banker "Do you know who I am?" Perhaps I know someone important or perhaps I don't but will the banker risk it. Want special access to someone's property or event, ask "Do you know who I am?" and see if they cave. This kind of attitude lasts about 2 seconds in the US. I always appreciate the rights and freedoms we have here. Hell, whenever I listen to CBC radio, I'm glad I'm not a Canadian because their government will shit all over their citizen's rights... and they're supposed to be the apologetic nation.
You seem to forget that America is an idea that can be embraced and implemented by countries who wish to do so. Not sure why people continue to assume that only the United States of America can be the only country to embrace and implement what America is and represents, specifically with regards to personal freedom, liberty and rights.
The reason so many countries fail to implement the idea of America is because in most cases, those who crave and eventuality obtain power put themselves and their needs above the population and what is best for the country as a whole.
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(http://cdn-webimages.wimages.net/051acac195c3c58691727ed75b5d8109b5a7f.jpg?v=3)
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How do you know America won't result in a totalitarian government in the near or distant future? Have we experienced an increase or decline in freedom and liberty over the past 50-100 years?
And the only people who stand to gain anything are those who put in the effort to make the necessary changes. Hawaii isn't the way it is because people didn't do anything, but rather because specific individuals and organizations were relentless to obtain their goals.
What makes you think the Hawaiian nation is going to be anything other than a totalitarian hell hole? There has been no presentation here of the plan for the new government so if you are going to make me guess, that is what I think is going to happen. There will be two or more factions and they will fight until the strongest wins. Sounds like what is going on right now. And that person/group that comes to power will then decide your fate for you without any input from you. Your vote/opinion/humanity will be irrelevant. Personally, I believe in the old adage, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I would never vote away the freedoms we currently have for the unknown. Especially if the unknown could easily turn into a socialist nightmare.
If there was a solid plan in place for how the government was/is to be set up, And all the different factions agree to it, then I think you might have something here. Depending on how the government is to be set up. And while I don’t know all the specifics, I conjecture that the biggest reason there is no more traction than there is now is due to the fact there is no set plan/constitution nor a majority agreement. Power corrupts.
I appreciate your dreams and thoughts but I see this happening without a plan in the same way the democrats dream of utopia. It’s just not reality. JMHO :shaka:
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Agreed. Most non-US, developing countries (including the potential future Kingdom of Hawaii, IMHO) are based on a system of "do you know who I am?"-ism. Want to buy something, walk into the bank and tell the banker "Do you know who I am?" Perhaps I know someone important or perhaps I don't but will the banker risk it. Want special access to someone's property or event, ask "Do you know who I am?" and see if they cave. This kind of attitude lasts about 2 seconds in the US. I always appreciate the rights and freedoms we have here. Hell, whenever I listen to CBC radio, I'm glad I'm not a Canadian because their government will shit all over their citizen's rights... and they're supposed to be the apologetic nation.
I had to read this a couple of times to let what you said sink in. I get what you are saying. I appreciate what we currently have here as well. Of course I am concerned about the directions we go sometimes. And I am concerned about the freedoms we have lost over the years. And while the government is capable of shitting on our rights we have recourse through the courts.
I never paid attention to the type of government that Canada has until you mentioned it. I looked it up and I have to say it seems pretty F’ed up to me. It is very complicated and not very representative of the people.
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What makes you think the Hawaiian nation is going to be anything other than a totalitarian hell hole? There has been no presentation here of the plan for the new government so if you are going to make me guess, that is what I think is going to happen.
Patience Inspector. Restoring one's nation takes time and careful planning for it to succeed. Do you not agree?
There will be two or more factions and they will fight until the strongest wins. Sounds like what is going on right now. And that person/group that comes to power will then decide your fate for you without any input from you. Your vote/opinion/humanity will be irrelevant. Personally, I believe in the old adage, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I would never vote away the freedoms we currently have for the unknown. Especially if the unknown could easily turn into a socialist nightmare.
That is one potential outcome, but that could be said for any group of people who are trying to establish a nation. Your assessment could have easily been made by someone in the British colonies prior to the decision to take up arms against Great Britain in the Revolutionary War.
If there was a solid plan in place for how the government was/is to be set up, And all the different factions agree to it, then I think you might have something here. Depending on how the government is to be set up. And while I don’t know all the specifics, I conjecture that the biggest reason there is no more traction than there is now is due to the fact there is no set plan/constitution nor a majority agreement. Power corrupts.
That is one concern that I am sure that all Hawaiians are well aware. However, the reason restoration has not moved on a faster pace is because many Hawaiians are only still now being made aware of the legal aspects of what needs to take place before the flag can change. Even then, the economic aspects have not been thoroughly discussed and that is the other major portion that needs to be clearly set and put in motion before there is any major movement to take control of the nation.
I appreciate your dreams and thoughts but I see this happening without a plan in the same way the democrats dream of utopia. It’s just not reality. JMHO :shaka:
Great analysis that Hawaiians should take heed, if they want to succeed.
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The only people who stand to gain anything are the people who are going to run the government or the people who have the strongest army. The potential subjects or citizens of the new government will never want this to occur without knowing how it will be set up prior to happening. To believe anything else without a constitution ready to be deployed is not reality IMHO.
It is funny you said that.
If memory serves correctly, the US was born in 1776. The US Constitution that all Americans hold so dear was officially ratified and took effect in 1789. Is this not an example of a group of sovereign colonies, who accepted membership into a nation, without any law of the land for at least 13 years after its birth?
If those former British colonies displayed the faith and confidence to wait 13 years, why do you think Hawaiians could not do the same?
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What makes you think the Hawaiian nation is going to be anything other than a totalitarian hell hole? There has been no presentation here of the plan for the new government so if you are going to make me guess, that is what I think is going to happen. There will be two or more factions and they will fight until the strongest wins. Sounds like what is going on right now. And that person/group that comes to power will then decide your fate for you without any input from you. Your vote/opinion/humanity will be irrelevant. Personally, I believe in the old adage, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I would never vote away the freedoms we currently have for the unknown. Especially if the unknown could easily turn into a socialist nightmare.
If there was a solid plan in place for how the government was/is to be set up, And all the different factions agree to it, then I think you might have something here. Depending on how the government is to be set up. And while I don’t know all the specifics, I conjecture that the biggest reason there is no more traction than there is now is due to the fact there is no set plan/constitution nor a majority agreement. Power corrupts.
I appreciate your dreams and thoughts but I see this happening without a plan in the same way the democrats dream of utopia. It’s just not reality. JMHO :shaka:
The Kingdom of Hawaii will build a wall around the islands and the US will pay for it. ;)
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The Kingdom of Hawaii will build a wall around the islands and the US will pay for it. ;)
Wrong. Hawaii will enact new islands as barriers and get China to build them. :geekdanc:
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Coral is overrated anyways...
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PeKnUKeVDMo/maxresdefault.jpg)
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Inspector touched on this.
After watching a number testimonies before the Dept. Of the Interior
A big problem with obtaining sovereignty of a Hawaiian Nation is that many Hawaiian groups can't agree with Hawaiian groups can't agree with Hawaiian groups.......
Many agree on Sovereignty but with vastly different ideas on what sovereignty would look like.
http://www.staradvertiser.com/2016/02/26/breaking-news/native-hawaiian-constitutional-convention-adopts-governing-document/
The groups couldn't even agree on a Constitution that was "ratified" by some groups.
("Ratified constitution grants citizenship to those who were descendants of the aboriginal and indigenous people who were in Hawaii prior to 1778. Apparently regardless of blood quantum but with only with concern to blood (race) lineage.)
Some groups thought it was a sellout to Nation within a Nation.
I get the 13 years to adopt a Constution of the U.S.
But Hawaiians have been discussing this issue for decades back to Walter Ritte's early days (and Haunani Trask and Bumpy Kanahele, etc. ) and probably farther back and haven't been able to come to the table on any agreed upon resolution or plan.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/native-hawaiians-again-seek-political-sovereignty-with-a-new-constitution/2017/11/05/833842d2-b905-11e7-be94-fabb0f1e9ffb_story.html?utm_term=.19877441f9cd
"Yet until Hawaiians erect their own government, how it would interact with the United States and others is all fantasy, said Michelle Kauhane, a writer of the constitution who has been traveling to present it to Native Hawaiian communities."
"Kanahele was one of 152 participants in last year's constitutional convention. He decamped before the vote that adopted the document.
"That was like a 20-day cleanse," said Kanahele, who is in the process of launching Aloha Coin, a virtual currency for the Nation of Hawaii. "People there were just learning about nation-building. They have no idea how to be responsible for 100 people, 200 people, 1,000 people. Their nation is in the four corners of the classroom. They are more theory; we are out here leading by example."
My personal opinion: Sovereignty is a pipe dream and continuous rejection of Nation within a Nation relations is a proud people shooting themselves in the foot.
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Again, how do you know it won't be What an ideal America should be? You seem to be locked in this perception that only the United States of America can create the utopia that is what the true America would be.
I never said that it wouldn't. All I said is without a plan in place it will probably end up in chaos and poorly. Please don't put words into my mouth.
You stated that the strongest will prevail, yet the British Empire was significantly stronger economically and militarily than the colonies, and still lost, allowing the colonies to gain independence. Did we win Vietnam? Weren't we significantly more powerful than the vietnamese and viet cong? How long have we been fighting the war in Afghanistan, with no absolute victory? I personally volunteered to go to Afghanistan, and witnessed first hand what ill equipped and undertrained individuals with extreme determination were capable of, against the most powerful military in the world, and who have successfully deterred defeat and conquest/colonization against numerous powerful civilizations throughout history, dating back to the ancient Greeks.
This has nothing to do with what I was saying. But if you want to know, the strongest can also be the smartest. We beat the British Empire because we were smarter. We lost the Vietnam War because we defeated ourselves. We were not the smartest. Same for Afghanistan. We have the military might to win, but without intelligent people at the helm, might is not everything. Intelligence is part of who is the strongest. Not just muscle.
And i disagree that my opinion is irrelevant, as ideas are the foundation of America itself. Wasnt the revolution based on the idea of freedom?
You misunderstood what I said. What I said was that if the Hawaiian nation turns into a totalitarian country your opinion is irrelevant as well as your vote and your humanity.
I will agree that the biggest obstacle facing any state, especially in the case of Hawaii, wishing to secede from the union is a lack of direction, but this is due primarily to a lack of direction/plan, and ignorance amongst the populace.
This is the only thing that I have been saying nothing more, nothing less.
What people need to stop assuming and asserting is that individuals like Kuleana and myself want the return of the Hawaiian kingdom. Let me be perfectly clear, in simple terms, since people can't register and properly interpret my my previous statements on this issue: FUCK THE HAWAIIAN KINGDOM. I blame everything that transgressed to the Hawaiian nation and indigenous people of Hawaii, for better and worse, on the actions of that failed state/government and its policies/actions that served only the interests of elitists, and I do not support going back to a monarchy and/or aristocracy in which a few control everything, while depriving people of the basic fundamental rights that all free peoples are entitled to.
Its sad that people are so closeminded to think that what currently is is the pinnacle of the idea that represents what the founding fathers envisioned. The idea of America does not exclusively belong to the United States, and I believe that it was a dream meant to be shared with all the world, for all nation states to hopefully adopt, no matter how big or small, how rich or poor.
If the US was perfect or what it should be, there would be no need for this discussion/debate. But the truth is that our government has deviated from the principles and ideals that form the basis of the country, and show no signs of reverting the country back towards its true purpose or path, so why is it so wrong to envision something better, separate from what currently is?
Rather than focus on the negatives of an independent nation state that wishes to or does separate from the union, humor the positives of an island nation encompassing the true values, principles, ideals and freedoms, as outlined in the words and texts off those who laid the foundations for America. Likely won't be perfect, and there is a high potential for failure, but it could be a beautiful thing in the end if it comes to fruition
I did not say nor assume any of this. Please do not put words into my mouth.
It seems I touched a nerve here. It was not my intention to do so. I am not going to respond to you further regarding this subject.
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Patience Inspector. Restoring one's nation takes time and careful planning for it to succeed. Do you not agree?
Maybe I am under a misunderstanding here. I thought the sovereignty movement has been going on since the 60's or 70's. If not when did it start?
I do agree. Which has been my point all along. Without the careful and proper planning it will more than likely end up poorly for most.
That is one potential outcome, but that could be said for any group of people who are trying to establish a nation. Your assessment could have easily been made by someone in the British colonies prior to the decision to take up arms against Great Britain in the Revolutionary War.
You are correct it is one potential outcome. It took a lot of careful and proper planning to get the convention together to write the constitution. The BIG difference here is that the colonies were fighting against oppression. So it was unlikely that oppression would have been in the cards again for the colonies. The colonies came together and agreed to write and accept the constitution. This is what the factions within the Hawaiian movement must do. The Hawaiian people are not being unnecessarily oppressed at this time. They are fighting to regain self governance. It is going to be a hard sell to get enough Hawaiians on board since oppression is not really the common thread here like it was in the US revolutionary war.
That is one concern that I am sure that all Hawaiians are well aware. However, the reason restoration has not moved on a faster pace is because many Hawaiians are only still now being made aware of the legal aspects of what needs to take place before the flag can change. Even then, the economic aspects have not been thoroughly discussed and that is the other major portion that needs to be clearly set and put in motion before there is any major movement to take control of the nation.
Okay, I understand why it is not moving at the pace I would have expected. But if it is to succeed it must be carefully planned out.
Great analysis that Hawaiians should take heed, if they want to succeed.
Exactly. Thanks for understanding.
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After watching a number testimonies before the Dept. Of the Interior
A big problem with obtaining sovereignty of a Hawaiian Nation is that many Hawaiian groups can't agree with Hawaiian groups can't agree with Hawaiian groups.......
Many agree on Sovereignty but with vastly different ideas on what sovereignty would look like.
This is because many so-called sovereignty groups have not thoroughly researched nor understand that once an occupied territory is restored, it reverts back to its original form with all the same laws that were on the books that were in existence prior to the occupation.
The groups couldn't even agree on a Constitution that was "ratified" by some groups.
("Ratified constitution grants citizenship to those who were descendants of the aboriginal and indigenous people who were in Hawaii prior to 1778. Apparently regardless of blood quantum but with only with concern to blood (race) lineage.)
Once again, these same groups going around to ratify a new Constitution are not realizing that their efforts are invalid because Hawaii prior to annexation by the US was a multi-ethnic society. Therefore, the idea of granting citizenship only to those of aboriginal decent is incorrect.
Some groups thought it was a sellout to Nation within a Nation.
This is a correct assessment because the whole "Nation within a Nation" was a covert legal attempt by the US via the Department of Interior to legally dupe Native Hawaiians in surrendering their sovereignty of Hawaii to the US.
I get the 13 years to adopt a Constution of the U.S.
But Hawaiians have been discussing this issue for decades back to Walter Ritte's early days (and Haunani Trask and Bumpy Kanahele, etc. ) and probably farther back and haven't been able to come to the table on any agreed upon resolution or plan.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/native-hawaiians-again-seek-political-sovereignty-with-a-new-constitution/2017/11/05/833842d2-b905-11e7-be94-fabb0f1e9ffb_story.html?utm_term=.19877441f9cd
"Yet until Hawaiians erect their own government, how it would interact with the United States and others is all fantasy, said Michelle Kauhane, a writer of the constitution who has been traveling to present it to Native Hawaiian communities."
"Kanahele was one of 152 participants in last year's constitutional convention. He decamped before the vote that adopted the document.
"That was like a 20-day cleanse," said Kanahele, who is in the process of launching Aloha Coin, a virtual currency for the Nation of Hawaii. "People there were just learning about nation-building. They have no idea how to be responsible for 100 people, 200 people, 1,000 people. Their nation is in the four corners of the classroom. They are more theory; we are out here leading by example."
All the above reaffirms that most Hawaiians understand about the Illegal annexation by the US, but are not well-versed that the laws that governed Hawaii prior to annexation will be the same laws that will come into effect, once the occupation ends. What Hawaiians need to focus their efforts on is begin reading the laws and treaties that were in effect prior to the illegal annexation; see what new amendments to those laws are necessary to bring it into 2018; and begin economic discussion that will address Hawaii's new economic base given the new freedom of action from US Federal laws and their foreign treaties, while reopening new trade ties based on the economic treaties Hawaii had with the many international nations.
My personal opinion: Sovereignty is a pipe dream and continuous rejection of Nation within a Nation relations is a proud people shooting themselves in the foot.
Hawaiians do not need to gain sovereignty because the sovereignty of Hawaii was never lost. Like Iraq in 2003, only the government was removed, which explains why the US never made Iraq the 51st state after it was militarily conquered.
Even for myself, who supports the restoration of Hawaii as its own nation, do not think it can happen immediately. In the words of Dr. Keanu Sai, Hawaiians need to work towards regaining their nation by first educating themselves on all legal facets on what happens when an occupied nation is no longer occupied. With all the talk of drafting new constitutions, it is clear Hawaiians have not educated themselves enough at this time.
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The above is very educating and I appreciate it.
My only thing is the "Sovereignty of Hawaii never lost".
How you figure?
As I see it, it was lost in every sense of the word except for legal claim. (Which has been rejected pretty much definitively by the occupying nation.)
Iraq.
We militarily conquered it and immediately gave it back. (With conditions) and as you mentioned never moved, and won't, to make them a territory or State.
Even if they asked we wouldn't entertain the thought.
Apples to orange.
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Even for myself, who supports the restoration of Hawaii as its own nation, do not think it can happen immediately. In the words of Dr. Keanu Sai, Hawaiians need to work towards regaining their nation by first educating themselves on all legal facets on what happens when an occupied nation is no longer occupied. With all the talk of drafting new constitutions, it is clear Hawaiians have not educated themselves enough at this time.
So the Kingdom of Hawaii should be "restored" after a majority of Native Hawaiians are "well-versed" in the illegality of the annexation and the laws that existed before the occupation (I presume 1893). What exactly is the education plan and how will they identify those who will be involved in the education?
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So the Kingdom of Hawaii should be "restored" after a majority of Native Hawaiians are "well-versed" in the illegality of the annexation and the laws that existed before the occupation (I presume 1893). What exactly is the education plan and how will they identify those who will be involved in the education?
The education is already being conducted on a multitude of levels. Within our local public school system, history books that accurately recounts the history of Hawaii is now available and being used. Hawaiian history scholars and attorneys are continuously holding seminars and making presentations via all available social media for Native Hawaiians and the general public. In academia, domestic and international presentations of the legal status of Hawaii are also being conducted to educate Americans and foreigners via educational conferences.
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The above is very educating and I appreciate it.
My only thing is the "Sovereignty of Hawaii never lost".
How you figure?
As I see it, it was lost in every sense of the word except for legal claim. (Which has been rejected pretty much definitively by the occupying nation.)
Iraq.
We militarily conquered it and immediately gave it back. (With conditions) and as you mentioned never moved, and won't, to make them a territory or State.
Even if they asked we wouldn't entertain the thought.
Apples to orange.
If you read some treaties with respect to the conventions of war and the laws of occupation. The US did not "give Iraq back to the Iraqis" as you say. If the US did set upon a war to make Iraq a part of the US, it would have started WWIII then and there. Iraq never lost its soverignty. Like the rest of American Imperialism, they ousted Saddam and, at least initially successful, installed a Pro-US Government there.
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The education is already being conducted on a multitude of levels. Within our local public school system, history books that accurately recounts the history of Hawaii is now available and being used. Hawaiian history scholars and attorneys are continuously holding seminars and making presentations via all available social media for Native Hawaiians and the general public. In academia, domestic and international presentations of the legal status of Hawaii are also being conducted to educate Americans and foreigners via educational conferences.
Will this be completed before or after the light rail is completed? :D
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Will this be completed before or after the light rail is completed? :D
Oh definitely before.
In fact the future new government of Hawaii is preparing to increase its incomes taxes to cover the budget increases to the rail project till 2070. :shaka:
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My only thing is the "Sovereignty of Hawaii was never lost".
How you figure?
As I see it, it was lost in every sense of the word except for legal claim. (Which has been rejected pretty much definitively by the occupying nation.)
My unanswered question.