2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: Seth2son on August 22, 2018, 10:19:27 AM
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With the hurricane approaching and my own concerns with looting that will inevitably follow I was curious to know what is the thoughts on open carry on your private property. Obviously I know I can open carry all I want inside my private home but where does that end? Am I able to open the front door with my fire arm as long as I remain in my house? Can I exit my front door but remain in my property? Or does it end at the city side walk where my property line meets public lands? Lmk your thoughts
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I emailed the AG's office and they could not define the work "residence" to me.
So generally speaking, to me a residence is your walls. So if you want to open your door, you're still inside your "residence". But when you step out onto your yard then that's a questionable thing. HPD may arrest you and you will have to pay a defense attorney to define "residence". Which will help all of us, but cost you big bucks.
Some of us live in a condo or apartment. So a common area (garage, lobby, etc...) also I would not consider my residence.
Now what if you live in a home that has a garage (attached or detached)? I know of 1 guy who practices reloads in his garage and HPD drove by and just looked at him. But now it's a judgement call by the officer. If they're having a bad day, you might end up in cuffs. Is there such thing as "extension of residence"?
Remember even if there is a natural disaster, rules for "use of deadly force" still apply and all gun laws. So you cannot shoot at someone who is looting. Or open carry in knee high water while relocating. Gun must be in an enclosed container when leaving the home.
Same goes for "school zones". If you evac to a shelter that's in a public school, the federal law applies, unless you get permission (which you won't get). IIRC, you must have written permission from the principal.
Hope this helps.
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I CCW basically at all times while I'm at home. My property lines are clearly defined with fences and a front gate.
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I CCW basically at all times while I'm at home. My property lines are clearly defined with fences and a front gate.
^^^This, if you CCW, no one knows, even pesky neighbors.
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I cc or open carry anywhere on my property and even when I mow the grass outside the fence along both sides of the road for a distance of 500 ft. But couple things to keep in mind. I live in Puna and you cannot see inside my property from outside the fence unless you are in a bucket truck. Our roads are privately owned and many times I can be doings things outside for two hours and not a single vehicle passes by.
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The city has an easement, or right-of-way, that extends onto sidewalks and probably onto your property. If you have utility lines underground or above, there may be easements through your property, too.
So, a case could be made that easements constitute publicly-accessible property for the purposes of repairs, maintenance and upgrades.
I'd be careful to stay away from the shoulders and sidewalks next to roads around your property. If someone reports seeing a gun on someone "walking near the street", a Cop might decide to arrest you and let the lawyers hash out the property boundaries.
"Out of sight, out of mind" is a good philosophy. CCW is legal on your property. Might as well get some practice in while we wait on the state to start issuing permits! :thumbsup: :geekdanc:
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Might as well get some practice in while we wait on the state to start issuing permits!
Not a bad idea, as I have no concealed holsters and using one in my usual shorts and tee shirt are an issue.
Suppose getting a fanny pack and wearing it around all day would work. The IWB holsters and gun weight are a bit much for elastic waist bands of my shorts to hold up.
Meanwhile, I have two open carry setups set for quick buckle on.
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I dont think any LE will cause trouble if you open carry on your own property. I would do it id there's rioting and looting in the neighborhood.
Worse case is you could be arrested but it would get kicked out in court.
Should also carry other options like pepper spray for looters.
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Not a bad idea, as I have no concealed holsters and using one in my usual shorts and tee shirt are an issue.
Suppose getting a fanny pack and wearing it around all day would work. The IWB holsters and gun weight are a bit much for elastic waist bands of my shorts to hold up.
Meanwhile, I have two open carry setups set for quick buckle on.
I have one similar to this. Doesn't require a belt or waistband support to work. Kind of like an ankle holster that fits around your waist.
https://tinyurl.com/y9sthxny
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Sounds like all good suggestions except I currently reside in Honolulu city so I’m pretty sure wether I’m in the confines of my legally owned private property someone would call the cops. Also even though I feel that I would be well within my legal rights I don’t want to be the Ginny pig and let a bias legal system determine my fate as I don’t have unlimited funds to spend on a defensive legal team.
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Sounds like all good suggestions except I currently reside in Honolulu city so I’m pretty sure wether I’m in the confines of my legally owned private property someone would call the cops. Also even though I feel that I would be well within my legal rights I don’t want to be the Ginny pig and let a bias legal system determine my fate as I don’t have unlimited funds to spend on a defensive legal team.
If the firearm is holstered, you aren't drinking/doing drugs, and you stay on your property, so what if someone complains? If you have security cameras to disprove any "he was waving and pointing his gun at people" lies, all the better.
Eventually the Cops will tell callers you aren't doing anything illegal and will stop bother you.
It takes a few Guinea Pigs to be willing to educate the public.
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I have one similar to this. Doesn't require a belt or waistband support to work. Kind of like an ankle holster that fits around your waist.
https://tinyurl.com/y9sthxny
Looks hot, like those "lose weight" belly straps.
How is it in hot weather?
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pew
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Looks hot, like those "lose weight" belly straps.
How is it in hot weather?
There's always the pocket gun option, but that weighs athletic shorts down more than I want.
The belt I have was more expensive, but has a 2" adjustable elastic belt. Only the pistol & mag pouch section is wider -- about 5" H x 12" W. Depending on your waist size, the belt will be 2-4 times the distance around.
I like wearing it over my shorts waistband. Keeps the elastic off my skin, and I can wear a long enough T-shirt to cover it.
I think I got mine on sale during a FB holiday sale for 20% off.
https://tinyurl.com/yb2oewae
Question: what make this belly band style holster worth 3 to 5 times more than other BB holsters?? is it that much better built?? better design?
Answer: Yes and yes. Most belly bands are manufactured in China using neoprene and low-cost velcro and elastic. This holster has no neoprene at all.
The velcro and elastic are the most expensive, highest quality materials that we can source. The holster is made from 100% US sourced materials and is hand-sewn
in the US by American workers. The materials that come in contact with the gun are shark skin and it won't stick during a draw. In addition, the holster has a patented
design that makes it fit any semi-automatic while still carrying it snugly with a forward cant. Most belly bands just have a square pocket that doesn't really fit any gun
perfectly.
By Concealed Carry Inc SELLER on June 1, 2018
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The belt I have was more expensive, but has a 2" adjustable elastic belt. Only the pistol & mag pouch section is wider -- about 5" H x 12" W. Depending on your waist size, the belt will be 2-4 times the distance around.
I like wearing it over my shorts waistband. Keeps the elastic off my skin, and I can wear a long enough T-shirt to cover it.
I like the looks of that a lot better, and hear you about wrapping the belt over the shorts waistband. That other one just looked like one of those "melt belly fat" things.
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I like the looks of that a lot better, and hear you about wrapping the belt over the shorts waistband. That other one just looked like one of those "melt belly fat" things.
For around the house/yard, it's perfect to carry my M&P Shield 9mm. The snap-strap keeps the pistol secure if I need to take the belt off for whatever reason (nature break) without removing the gun from the holster.
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I carry most of the item when I’m home, I have a clip on holster that I drop on my belt, I don’t open or conceal carry, my shirt sits where it sits.
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It has always been my understanding that anywhere on your property is legal. I have heard that doesn't apply to common areas like parking lots of condos though.
Just stick with CCW, more advantages to CCW over open carry.
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It has always been my understanding that anywhere on your property is legal. I have heard that doesn't apply to common areas like parking lots of condos though.
Just stick with CCW, more advantages to CCW over open carry.
Care to share any details of the sources as to how "it has always been" your "understanding" that carrying anywhere on your property is legal? Or where you have "heard" about the "common areas" prohibition?
What about on someone else's property where you are welcome and have the owner's permission to carry (open or concealed)? Does it have to be your "place of sojourn", or can you return home for the night without being subject to arrest? How would the cops know, prior to your departure that it was not your "place of sojourn"? If you leave before midnight, or exactly when, does it or does it not become your "place of sojourn"? Why should "place of sojourn" be a legal "place to keep" (NOT bear) arms? And not anywhere else you are?
What about if I am standing at my property line (say, at the street) and I stick my hand or leg in the air across the line, without touching the ground, am I a criminal subject to arrest? What if I do step across the line by a foot?
Please supply us with your source(s) documenting the "advantages to CCW over open carry". By "sources" I mean data from the real world documenting the advantages, not theoretical articles by people spinning hypothetical "what ifs" and "coulds". Thanks.
I've got a crazy idea, how about if laws only make people into criminals when they actually harm someone, not because in some hypothetical they "might" harm someone? Otherwise to be consistent you have to ban driving cars, because those kill and injure way more people than guns every day, especially guns carried by otherwise law-abiding citizens, and thus have the potential to kill and injure people every single time every single person gets behind the wheel and enters into "the public space". Oh, sorry, I forgot. Can't do that because "gunz".
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It has always been my understanding that anywhere on your property is legal. I have heard that doesn't apply to common areas like parking lots of condos though.
Just stick with CCW, more advantages to CCW over open carry.
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common sense tells me this is what it is, and this is how I choose to define my residence.
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What about on someone else's property where you are welcome and have the owner's permission to carry (open or concealed)? Does it have to be your "place of sojourn", or can you return home for the night without being subject to arrest? How would the cops know, prior to your departure that it was not your "place of sojourn"? If you leave before midnight, or exactly when, does it or does it not become your "place of sojourn"? Why should "place of sojourn" be a legal "place to keep" (NOT bear) arms? And not anywhere else you are?
Carrying even with permission on someone else's property is illegal, unless it's your place of sojourn. So if you ask your friend, "can I sleep over", then yes it's legal. But you better be sure if PD does question you for any reason, that your friend tells them that you're spending the night. Even bringing your guns to your friends home just to show is also illegal unless you're spending the night. Example: "Hey bro, I wanna buy an AR, can you bring yours to my house so I can check it out?".
You can however lend a long rifle or shotgun to anyone who is qualified to do so for 15 days. So who's to say that you're not letting your friend borrow the long gun/shotgun. But you cannot let anyone borrow your handgun.
As a rule of thumb, I don't like to "test" PD on what I can and cannot do. Because in the end, it will be me who pays financially to prove that what I did in question is legal. You're welcome to do so and set president for the rest of us. And if you start a go fund me, I'll chip in a little. PD are human and not lawyers/judges. So depending on who questions you is how it will end up. So if you left your friends home at 1am and going home and get pulled over. If the cop is having a bad day or just a dick, then you will have to justify your gun being in the car. But if the cop is cool then he may tell you to just go home. But we do not have a law where you have to notify PD that there is a gun in the car, that's why you should keep the enclosed container in the trunk.
Why should we have a places to keep law? I think their stupid, but the law is the law, even if unjust. I wasn't in the culture when they created this law, so I can't say how we or if we even did fight it.
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Carrying even with permission on someone else's property is illegal, unless it's your place of sojourn. So if you ask your friend, "can I sleep over", then yes it's legal. But you better be sure if PD does question you for any reason, that your friend tells them that you're spending the night. Even bringing your guns to your friends home just to show is also illegal unless you're spending the night. Example: "Hey bro, I wanna buy an AR, can you bring yours to my house so I can check it out?".
You can however lend a long rifle or shotgun to anyone who is qualified to do so for 15 days. So who's to say that you're not letting your friend borrow the long gun/shotgun. But you cannot let anyone borrow your handgun.
As a rule of thumb, I don't like to "test" PD on what I can and cannot do. Because in the end, it will be me who pays financially to prove that what I did in question is legal. You're welcome to do so and set president for the rest of us. And if you start a go fund me, I'll chip in a little. PD are human and not lawyers/judges. So depending on who questions you is how it will end up. So if you left your friends home at 1am and going home and get pulled over. If the cop is having a bad day or just a dick, then you will have to justify your gun being in the car. But if the cop is cool then he may tell you to just go home. But we do not have a law where you have to notify PD that there is a gun in the car, that's why you should keep the enclosed container in the trunk.
Why should we have a places to keep law? I think their stupid, but the law is the law, even if unjust. I wasn't in the culture when they created this law, so I can't say how we or if we even did fight it.
so·journ
ˈsōjərn/Submit
formal
noun
1.
a temporary stay.
"her sojourn in Rome"
synonyms: stay, visit, stop, stopover; vacation
"a sojourn in France"
verb
1.
stay somewhere temporarily.
"she had sojourned once in Egypt"
synonyms: stay, live, put up, stop (over), lodge, room, board; vacation
"they sojourned in the monastery"
There is no "sleep over" requirement. Private property is private property.
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so·journ
ˈsōjərn/Submit
formal
noun
1.
a temporary stay.
"her sojourn in Rome"
synonyms: stay, visit, stop, stopover; vacation
"a sojourn in France"
verb
1.
stay somewhere temporarily.
"she had sojourned once in Egypt"
synonyms: stay, live, put up, stop (over), lodge, room, board; vacation
"they sojourned in the monastery"
There is no "sleep over" requirement. Private property is private property.
To me, all the above sounds differently from "hanging out at a friends home/bbq". But I'm not a lawyer. But who's to say that you were going to "sleep over", but changed your mind. So as long as your friend can confirm "yeah X was going to spend the night", then it's all G. Compared to "I sojourned at Starbucks to grab a coffee".
Not trying to be argumentative, but like I said above, you can test the waters and let us know.
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To me, all the above sounds differently from "hanging out at a friends home/bbq". But I'm not a lawyer. But who's to say that you were going to "sleep over", but changed your mind. So as long as your friend can confirm "yeah X was going to spend the night", then it's all G. Compared to "I sojourned at Starbucks to grab a coffee".
Not trying to be argumentative, but like I said above, you can test the waters and let us know.
No..... Your example is a non sequitur. There are specific laws that prevent carrying a firearm, open or concealed, at your local Starbucks. Don't equate public spaces with privately owned property. Stop adding words and scenarios to the law.
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can't use technology
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No..... Your example is a non sequitur. There are specific laws that prevent carrying a firearm, open or concealed, at your local Starbucks. Don't equate public spaces with privately owned property. Stop adding words and scenarios to the law.
Ok
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common sense tells me this is what it is, and this is how I choose to define my residence.
The county of Hawaii does not agree with your "common sense". They clearly stated in Young v. Hawaii during oral arguments that the right to bear arms is limited strictly to inside the home. Once you acknowledge that a person has a right to bear even in the curtilage of their home (one step outside their door, or more) you get into a whole pile of "complications", some of which I mentioned above. I'm (and know you are too) with Justice Thomas:: "I find it extremely improbable that the Framers understood the Second Amendment to protect little more than carrying a gun from the bedroom to the kitchen." [dissent to denial of cert in Peruta]
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To me, all the above sounds differently from "hanging out at a friends home/bbq". But I'm not a lawyer. But who's to say that you were going to "sleep over", but changed your mind. So as long as your friend can confirm "yeah X was going to spend the night", then it's all G. Compared to "I sojourned at Starbucks to grab a coffee".
Not trying to be argumentative, but like I said above, you can test the waters and let us know.
Based on your definitions of "sojourn", the airport would be off limits if you arrive and fly to another island/the mainland all in the same day. Why are only commercial travel-related locations considered places of sojourn?
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Based on your definitions of "sojourn", the airport would be off limits if you arrive and fly to another island/the mainland all in the same day. Why are only commercial travel-related locations considered places of sojourn?
The difference is when you're at the airport, you're on your way to your new place of sojourn or returning to your residence from your trip. Unless you're at the airport just to eat or hang out, then that's the difference.
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(a) Except as provided in section 134-5, all firearms shall be confined to the possessor's place of business, residence, or sojourn; provided that it shall be lawful to carry unloaded firearms in an enclosed container from the place of purchase to the purchaser's place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places upon change of place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places and the following:
(1) A place of repair;
(2) A target range;
(3) A licensed dealer's place of business;
(4) An organized, scheduled firearms show or exhibit;
(5) A place of formal hunter or firearm use training or instruction; or
(6) A police station.
"Hey, Bob, I'm going to bring my AR over to your house at 3pm and exhibit it for you." Organized, scheduled, legal.
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The county of Hawaii does not agree with your "common sense". They clearly stated in Young v. Hawaii during oral arguments that the right to bear arms is limited strictly to inside the home. Once you acknowledge that a person has a right to bear even in the curtilage of their home (one step outside their door, or more) you get into a whole pile of "complications", some of which I mentioned above. I'm (and know you are too) with Justice Thomas:: "I find it extremely improbable that the Framers understood the Second Amendment to protect little more than carrying a gun from the bedroom to the kitchen." [dissent to denial of cert in Peruta]
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County of Hawaii can kiss my fat a....
When I write my residential address, I don't write "that wooden structure situated at tax map key 0000-1432-0437......"
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County of Hawaii can kiss my fat a....
When I write my residential address, I don't write "that wooden structure situated at tax map key 0000-1432-0437......"
That 2-digit prefix in Hawaii house numbers is actually taken from the tax map key.
My address is 95-xxx, and my tax map key is 9502-xxxx-0000.
FYI.
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https://www.amazon.com/BOLT-Crossbows-The-Pitbull-Crossbow/dp/B07226X58M
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81yDpVzQdDL._SX425_.jpg)
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The difference is when you're at the airport, you're on your way to your new place of sojourn or returning to your residence from your trip. Unless you're at the airport just to eat or hang out, then that's the difference.
According to the NY Supreme Court (in 1890) Wittenbrock v. Mabius, 10 N.Y.S. 733 :
Sojourn refers to a temporary stay by a person who is not just passing through a place but is also a permanent resident.
In other words, the definition of sojourn is a temporary residence, as that of a traveler in a foreign land, a sojourner; to have a temporary abode;
to live as not at home.
If you accept that definition as legal precedence, then the airport and intermediate hotel rooms are not considered places of sojourn. You can't be "passing through", but rather making that your "temporary residence" away from home.
Hawaii allows for intermediate places -- places between changes in your "places to keep". That's why the airport, a hotel room, or a stay at a friend's house en route to your home or place of sojourn are allowed.
"Between" is pretty broad, since it doesn't include verbiage like "directly" or "nonstop". If your friend lives BETWEEN the range and your residence, and you intend to return home after being at the range, then the law permits you to be at your friend's home for an unspecified length of time.
When laws are ambiguous, the ambiguity is to be interpreted in favor of the defendant. Rule of Lenity:
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/R/RuleofLenity.aspx
The question becomes, is the wording of the statute able to meet the legal definition of "ambiguous"? If so, "between" has more than one meaning.
Stopping between one legal place to possess a firearm and another is legal -- like an airport -- or a friend's house. You just can't go from home to friend and back home.
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Care to share any details of the sources as to how "it has always been" your "understanding" that carrying anywhere on your property is legal? Or where you have "heard" about the "common areas" prohibition?
What about on someone else's property where you are welcome and have the owner's permission to carry (open or concealed)? Does it have to be your "place of sojourn", or can you return home for the night without being subject to arrest? How would the cops know, prior to your departure that it was not your "place of sojourn"? If you leave before midnight, or exactly when, does it or does it not become your "place of sojourn"? Why should "place of sojourn" be a legal "place to keep" (NOT bear) arms? And not anywhere else you are?
What about if I am standing at my property line (say, at the street) and I stick my hand or leg in the air across the line, without touching the ground, am I a criminal subject to arrest? What if I do step across the line by a foot?
Please supply us with your source(s) documenting the "advantages to CCW over open carry". By "sources" I mean data from the real world documenting the advantages, not theoretical articles by people spinning hypothetical "what ifs" and "coulds". Thanks.
I've got a crazy idea, how about if laws only make people into criminals when they actually harm someone, not because in some hypothetical they "might" harm someone? Otherwise to be consistent you have to ban driving cars, because those kill and injure way more people than guns every day, especially guns carried by otherwise law-abiding citizens, and thus have the potential to kill and injure people every single time every single person gets behind the wheel and enters into "the public space". Oh, sorry, I forgot. Can't do that because "gunz".
It was based on conversations as well as my understanding of the law. I cannot remember specifically who I spoke with about common areas as it was a while ago. It is however enough of a gray area in the law that I wouldn't go testing it.
As for one's own property surrounding a home, the Hawaii Revised Statutes does not specifically define residence. A reading of the gun laws does not have anything that would imply or suggest that one's property is not included in the definition of one's residence. Are you saying you disagree with my comment or are you just stirring things up?
Not sure what type of data you want. Open carry lets people know you are armed with a firearm which takes away any element of surprise. I am not sure why you need a study to tell you that.
As for your last paragraph I am not even sure why you took the time you type it. You are just preaching to the choir here.
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According to the NY Supreme Court (in 1890) Wittenbrock v. Mabius, 10 N.Y.S. 733 :
If you accept that definition as legal precedence, then the airport and intermediate hotel rooms are not considered places of sojourn. You can't be "passing through", but rather making that your "temporary residence" away from home.
Hawaii allows for intermediate places -- places between changes in your "places to keep". That's why the airport, a hotel room, or a stay at a friend's house en route to your home or place of sojourn are allowed.
"Between" is pretty broad, since it doesn't include verbiage like "directly" or "nonstop". If your friend lives BETWEEN the range and your residence, and you intend to return home after being at the range, then the law permits you to be at your friend's home for an unspecified length of time.
When laws are ambiguous, the ambiguity is to be interpreted in favor of the defendant. Rule of Lenity:
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/R/RuleofLenity.aspx
The question becomes, is the wording of the statute able to meet the legal definition of "ambiguous"? If so, "between" has more than one meaning.
Stopping between one legal place to possess a firearm and another is legal -- like an airport -- or a friend's house. You just can't go from home to friend and back home.
Well put.
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"Hey, Bob, I'm going to bring my AR over to your house at 3pm and exhibit it for you." Organized, scheduled, legal.
Not to mention, I took the gun to bob's house so he can help me fix it. Legal!
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Not to mention, I took the gun to bob's house so he can help me fix it. Legal!
I seriously doubt it. Unless bob has a business license to operate as a gunsmith at that address.
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I seriously doubt it. Unless bob has a business license to operate as a gunsmith at that address.
notice that the law does not specify that the person needs to be a licensed gunsmith of any kind. The only mention of a license requirement is for the place of sale.