2aHawaii
General Topics => Off Topic => Topic started by: oldfart on September 23, 2018, 08:21:58 AM
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These college edumacated folks spent 350G for college degrees and they can't figure out how to get out of debt. :rofl:
They should demand a refund
excerpt from story:
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In many ways, Daniel Strong is happy with his life. He owns a three-bedroom ranch-style house in Charlottesville, Virginia, where he lives with his wife and 3-year-old son, Benjamin. He recently made the last payment on his silver, Toyota Tacoma. He likes his job.
But there's one problem that won't go away.
Strong and his wife owe more than $350,000 for their bachelor's and master's degrees.
"The huge monster in the closet for me are these student loans that keep getting bigger and bigger," said Strong, 36. When they graduated, they were faced with monthly bills of around $800 each and have since struggled to keep up.
"It's so stressful to think about the fact that you're probably going to have to work until you drop dead at work because of your student loans," Strong said.
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story from msn...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/this-48-year-old-mom-owes-dollar600000-in-loans-as-the-student-debt-crisis-worsens/ar-AAAtvcY?ocid=spartandhp
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These college edumacated folks spent 350G for college degrees and they can't figure out how to get out of debt. :rofl:
They should demand a refund
excerpt from story:
--------------------------------
In many ways, Daniel Strong is happy with his life. He owns a three-bedroom ranch-style house in Charlottesville, Virginia, where he lives with his wife and 3-year-old son, Benjamin. He recently made the last payment on his silver, Toyota Tacoma. He likes his job.
But there's one problem that won't go away.
Strong and his wife owe more than $350,000 for their bachelor's and master's degrees.
"The huge monster in the closet for me are these student loans that keep getting bigger and bigger," said Strong, 36. When they graduated, they were faced with monthly bills of around $800 each and have since struggled to keep up.
"It's so stressful to think about the fact that you're probably going to have to work until you drop dead at work because of your student loans," Strong said.
---------------------------------
story from msn...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/this-48-year-old-mom-owes-dollar600000-in-loans-as-the-student-debt-crisis-worsens/ar-AAAtvcY?ocid=spartandhp
If you've looked at the financial aid application process in the past 20 some years, they have a practice of enticing everyone to apply, even if your parents (or you) make too much to qualify.
For those unable to get grants, scholarships and work-study, the college offers a stated amount of loans for both the student AND the parents. When you're looking at the amounts, you're thinking:
1. That's more than tuition! Woo-hoo!
2. I don't have to start paying for another 4 years (6-8 if you take longer to graduate or get a Masters).
3. Interest keeps accruing (how bad can that be?) while I'm not making payments.
4. It'll help me establish credit for when I buy a car and a house.
5. All i have to do is remain a full-time student, graduate eventually, and then I'll have it made with the massive income my degree will land me.
I sent my first daughter to HPU on my dime. The second, I needed some help, so we each took out a student loan. I paid them both off last year.
Anyone who's only making minimum payments is getting eaten alive with compounding interest. You're better off getting a job to save and buy some things before going to college. With interest deferred guaranteed student loans, staying on your parents' healthcare plan through 26 if in college, and tax deductions for remaining a dependent, the gov't is trying to entice people to follow this path.
The only people really making out are the gov't from interest income and the schools, who can continue to raise tuition rates and pay their faculty a nice raise every year or two.
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He owns a three-bedroom ranch-style house in Charlottesville, Virginia,
where he lives with his wife
and 3-year-old son, Benjamin.
He recently made the last payment on his silver, Toyota Tacoma.
He likes his job.
Not bad for 36 yr old, at least he's still not in his mothers basement BUT
Can't figure out how to get out of debt ?
:wtf:
Bet you could have paid off that student debt a long time ago IF
You did not buy a house.(if your in debt 350G, you can't afford one)
Not have a child before being able to afford one (if your in debt 350G, you can't afford one)
Bought a new truck on credit (if your in debt 350G, you can't afford one).
Classic buy now, Pay later (aka spend more than you can afford)
With out the additional debt you accrued from the above, you most likely would not have to have "struggled to keep up."
Likes his job ?
No mention if that college education got you that job but I'm pretty sure the bachelor's and master's degrees you both received were not in financial planning or economics. :closed:
Hi, Mom ?
We're moving back into your basement.
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Boo-hoo. This cost wasn't sprung on him, he had every ability to know what was happening and chose to do it anyway.
He accepted that and now he has to accept that either he will be scraping by for a long time or he needs to reconsider his lifestyle to pay it off sooner.
On a side note though, I have been thinking that they should eliminate general education classes for college. Why can't someone go in and only take classes needed for their specific degree. Ok, ill leave my off topic rant on that for another day.
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Boo-hoo. This cost wasn't sprung on him, he had every ability to know what was happening and chose to do it anyway.
He accepted that and now he has to accept that either he will be scraping by for a long time or he needs to reconsider his lifestyle to pay it off sooner.
On a side note though, I have been thinking that they should eliminate general education classes for college. Why can't someone go in and only take classes needed for their specific degree. Ok, ill leave my off topic rant on that for another day.
That's called "Trade School." If you want a Bachelor's Degree, you take all the same general college credits as all others who get that degree.
If you can study on your own and pass a CLEP test, substitute military education and training for some classes, and/or take cheaper general college classes at a lower per-credit-hour rate at a community college, you can reduce the cost and number of classes required for graduation.
As for "why do general college at all", it's because high schools today do an often poor job of educating college-bound kids. It's why prep schools exist to feed into ivy league schools -- to make sure the students are ready for that challenge.
When you apply for an undergraduate degree program, you should be given a series of placement tests. Based on your scores, you could skip over lower courses, or even qualify for credit for the lower courses. I placed out of the lower level math and English freshman classes. Lots of people didn't. When I started my 2nd level English class, they gave us the state mandated test as a pre-test. Anyone who scored close to perfect got to skip class for the first 3+ months. We had to come back for the practice tests, and then the official final test. No one was allowed to pass English without passing the state competency test.
It was such an easy class, I don't remember doing anything in it other than taking 4-5 tests. The school still got my tuition as if I actually learned anything though.
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The problem that no one adress is, students attending a college they cant afford. Just because u got into yale, doesnt mean you have to go.
Its like working at foodland as a bag boy, but taking out a loan to buy a ferrari.
I went to UH so my parents wont have to spend 30k a year. All these students in debt could have gone to their local university.
Combined with majoring in a BS (bull, not bachelor of science) degree and wondering why they cant find a job.
College teaches u just enough to make u think youre smart, but not to question the system (indoctoration). Or these kids would have figured out "wait can i afford all this?"
Meet Sara:
Ivy league education
Majored in womens studies
$500k in debt
Cant find a job
Meet Bill:
Went to a trade school
Makes $60k a year
No student loans
Meet Thor:
Joined the military
Learned how to deal with retards, or was one
Got to go to school for free (GI Bill)
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As much as my father and I didn’t get along, he did manage to teach me a few things. One is a work ethic and another is how to manage my money. I also paid for my own education even though he had saved a very minor amount of money to go towards my education. I turned down his money. I have been working since I turned 13 1/2 (part time) all throughout HS and had saved up more money for my own education than my father had.
I started my full time work and college education right after HS in 1976 and then quit school in 1977. By this time I had a lot of credit card debt. I finally decided to go back to school in 1993 and finished my education In 1996. One of the hardest things I have ever done was to go to school full time and work full time. I used my education for work in IT for only 12 years working from 1996 to 2008. I have been working full time for 42 years. I did pay off my school loans in 1998 and I paid off my truck and credit cards and I was debt free. In 1999 I had saved up enough for a down payment on a house. Until I bought my first house in 1999 I lived in cheap apartments in some not so great neighborhoods and drove older used vehicles. I have worked in construction QA/QC for the other 30 years.
I still drive older used vehicles and I am still debt free except for my current mortgage. I am ready to retire in about a year and a half. The way I see it is if I can do it, anyone can. I believe most of the problem described in this thread is a lack of knowledge of how to manage your money.
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As much as my father and I didn’t get along, he did manage to teach me a few things. One is a work ethic and another is how to manage my money. I also paid for my own education even though he had saved a very minor amount of money to go towards my education. I turned down his money. I have been working since I turned 13 1/2 (part time) all throughout HS and had saved up more money for my own education than my father had.
I started my full time work and college education right after HS in 1976 and then quit school in 1977. By this time I had a lot of credit card debt. I finally decided to go back to school in 1993 and finished my education In 1996. One of the hardest things I have ever done was to go to school full time and work full time. I used my education for work in IT for only 12 years working from 1996 to 2008. I have been working full time for 42 years. I did pay off my school loans in 1998 and I paid off my truck and credit cards and I was debt free. In 1999 I had saved up enough for a down payment on a house. Until I bought my first house in 1999 I lived in cheap apartments in some not so great neighborhoods and drove older used vehicles. I have worked in construction QA/QC for the other 30 years.
I still drive older used vehicles and I am still debt free except for my current mortgage. I am ready to retire in about a year and a half. The way I see it is if I can do it, anyone can. I believe most of the problem described in this thread is a lack of knowledge of how to manage your money.
"they" would say that you need to shut up and step up
and that "someone's got to do something" about the student loan debt
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.
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"they" would say that you need to shut up and step up
and that "someone's got to do something" about the student loan debt
Fucking Hirono. Piece of shit RACIST. What she said is purely SEXIST/RACIST.
The only “someone” who is going to do something about student loan debt is the taxpayer if pieces of shit like Hirono stay in power.
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Times have changed in so many ways. For one, the cost of college tuition is ridiculous! I am lucky that I didn't have any debt as I chose a good school, but where I had an academic scholarship that covered I believe something like 85-90% of my tuition. I actually had two other schools in mind, but they didn't give me anywhere near that amount of aid, so I had to pass. The school that I ended up going to was top 5 in the nation in percentage tuition increase every year I was there. I knew a lot of folks who were "super duper seniors", some being in school for 6+ years. I don't know how they afforded that.
Now you have this generation that is expecting free tuition as well as I believe many are accruing debt with a sort of expectation that they will claim hardship and be afforded relief. I know of at least of handful of folks that have openly talked about that. Sort of expectation of bailout where they expect that since the big banks were bailed out, so they deserve it too. ::)
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Times have changed in so many ways. For one, the cost of college tuition is ridiculous! I am lucky that I didn't have any debt as I chose a good school, but where I had an academic scholarship that covered I believe something like 85-90% of my tuition. I actually had two other schools in mind, but they didn't give me anywhere near that amount of aid, so I had to pass. The school that I ended up going to was top 5 in the nation in percentage tuition increase every year I was there. I knew a lot of folks who were "super duper seniors", some being in school for 6+ years. I don't know how they afforded that.
Now you have this generation that is expecting free tuition as well as I believe many are accruing debt with a sort of expectation that they will claim hardship and be afforded relief. I know of at least of handful of folks that have openly talked about that. Sort of expectation of bailout where they expect that since the big banks were bailed out, so they deserve it too. ::)
This is the problem, the students now feel entitled to what every school they can get into, regardless of the price. UH cost for resident $7K a year. So having a $30K debt is not that bad (InB4 "focus" 7x4=28, rounding up).
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That's called "Trade School." If you want a Bachelor's Degree, you take all the same general college credits as all others who get that degree.
If you can study on your own and pass a CLEP test, substitute military education and training for some classes, and/or take cheaper general college classes at a lower per-credit-hour rate at a community college, you can reduce the cost and number of classes required for graduation.
As for "why do general college at all", it's because high schools today do an often poor job of educating college-bound kids. It's why prep schools exist to feed into ivy league schools -- to make sure the students are ready for that challenge.
When you apply for an undergraduate degree program, you should be given a series of placement tests. Based on your scores, you could skip over lower courses, or even qualify for credit for the lower courses. I placed out of the lower level math and English freshman classes. Lots of people didn't. When I started my 2nd level English class, they gave us the state mandated test as a pre-test. Anyone who scored close to perfect got to skip class for the first 3+ months. We had to come back for the practice tests, and then the official final test. No one was allowed to pass English without passing the state competency test.
It was such an easy class, I don't remember doing anything in it other than taking 4-5 tests. The school still got my tuition as if I actually learned anything though.
Yeah, but the problem is you can't go to trade schools for psychology, or business, or history, etc. Or do they offer degrees in such fields at trade schools and I missed something
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Yeah, but the problem is you can't go to trade schools for psychology, or business, or history, etc. Or do they offer degrees in such fields at trade schools and I missed something
You did. They require more years of education beyond what a trade school can offer. That's why they are taught at universities. What? You want a trade school doc to perform surgery?
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This is the problem, the students now feel entitled to what every school they can get into, regardless of the price. UH cost for resident $7K a year.
$11,000 a year for resident
I have 2 kids there. Costs the same as one kid at Iolani. (For 2 kids)
http://www.catalog.hawaii.edu/tuitionfees/regtuition.htm
P.S. None of my kids went to Iolani. Na Alii Baby !
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If you are over 50 years old you have no business telling people nowadays how to run their lives. You grew up in an age of economic expansion but now the rules are completely different. Wages are down, inflation is through the roof, universities are loan sharks, the American Dream is dead, and following the traditional path is a one way ticket to financial ruin. Back in the day one working class job used to support a whole family and now even if every member is contributing you can still end up out on the street. The whole country is one massive debt bubble that's set to pop any minute, and this time bailing out the billionaires won't work. No wonder socialism is getting popular again. If you want it to spread faster then keep talking shit like you know what's going on.
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If you are over 50 years old you have no business telling people nowadays how to run their lives. You grew up in an age of economic expansion but now the rules are completely different. Wages are down, inflation is through the roof, universities are loan sharks, the American Dream is dead, and following the traditional path is a one way ticket to financial ruin. Back in the day one working class job used to support a whole family and now even if every member is contributing you can still end up out on the street. The whole country is one massive debt bubble that's set to pop any minute, and this time bailing out the billionaires won't work. No wonder socialism is getting popular again. If you want it to spread faster then keep talking shit like you know what's going on.
You have no business telling anyone on this board what they can and cannot say. Being insulting and condescending is also something you have no business doing.
Next time instead of blaming everyone else for Socialism and your own problems, I suggest you look at how you appear to everyone else with your diatribe. I guess being civil is beyond your capability.
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$11,000 a year for resident
I have 2 kids there. Costs the same as one kid at Iolani. (For 2 kids)
http://www.catalog.hawaii.edu/tuitionfees/regtuition.htm
P.S. None of my kids went to Iolani. Na Alii Baby !
I thought it was higher. I was going to say around 12-13k from what I recall, but I don't have many friends who go to UH or kids at UH. I had a few friends go through their MBA and EMBA programs and I believe they said it was in the 18-20k range per year, but that was also maybe 3-4 years ago now.
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If you are over 50 years old you have no business telling people nowadays how to run their lives. You grew up in an age of economic expansion but now the rules are completely different. Wages are down, inflation is through the roof, universities are loan sharks, the American Dream is dead, and following the traditional path is a one way ticket to financial ruin. Back in the day one working class job used to support a whole family and now even if every member is contributing you can still end up out on the street. The whole country is one massive debt bubble that's set to pop any minute, and this time bailing out the billionaires won't work. No wonder socialism is getting popular again. If you want it to spread faster then keep talking shit like you know what's going on.
Look at where Socialism is popular. One is Millenials. It's attractive to them because they take for granted what capitalism has allowed. Their parents and grandparents worked hard and left their generation not wanting for much. Everything is so easy for them, everything is provided, everything is safe. Yes, that's what I would want for my children, but somewhere the value of where that came from stopped being passed down. Not with every family as I do have many friends where this issue is in the forefront right now. One of my best friends has a huge rift in with his 16 yo son because of that very subject. His ex-wife's family is well to do and spoils the kid, giving him everything he wants and he has come to expect that, much like many of the Millenials of today, at least from what I've seen. Again, I mean that's great, but he's going to be in for a rude awakening sometime.
There are also other groups where Socialism is quite highly regarded, but I don't want to be labeled a racist or bigot, so I'll just pick on the spoiled Millenials.
Regarding the issue of trade schools vs four year programs. One example that I thought about previously (I had written a long post a couple of times, but deleted) was that I do feel that everyone is free to choose whatever college degree they choose. However, I don't have any sympathy for one that chooses to pursue say a degree in English, only to find that they can't find a well paying job to pay off their student debt. Yeah, it's good to be idealistic if there aren't any real consequences to your actions. Much like Millenials as they haven't really started to contribute yet. They only see the benefits afforded to them by previous generations. An example was my sister. She graduated with a degree in English, against the wishes of my parents who were paying for her tuition. Well, after she graduated, she couldn't find a decent paying job. She ended up doing the JET program and lived in Japan. Still, nothing when she returned. She ended up with an office admin job. Some think just because they have a college degree that they'll get ahead in life. Still have to put in the work. Yes, if you put in the work, that still doesn't guarantee success in life, but it's easy to have relaxed ideals when you're not paying for those decisions.
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If you are over 50 years old you have no business telling people nowadays how to run their lives. You grew up in an age of economic expansion but now the rules are completely different. Wages are down, inflation is through the roof, universities are loan sharks, the American Dream is dead, and following the traditional path is a one way ticket to financial ruin. Back in the day one working class job used to support a whole family and now even if every member is contributing you can still end up out on the street. The whole country is one massive debt bubble that's set to pop any minute, and this time bailing out the billionaires won't work. No wonder socialism is getting popular again. If you want it to spread faster then keep talking shit like you know what's going on.
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I'm way over 50. But hard work and common sense will allow you to thrive in any economic situation.
My first job was hard work and paid $1.65 per hour.
I went to trade school and rode a bicycle.
Today I have a 3bdrm house, 2 cars, 4 kids and a dog.
I do not live in Kahala, but it's a pretty nice neighborhood with zero crime.
My point is that if you aren't hell bent on trying to impress people with blingy things, you can have nice things and live well without accruing horrendous debt.
like Rocky sez...."act your wage"
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Inflation was way higher when I was in my 20s and 30s. If you look at historical mortgage rates, it was 7+% in 1970 and peaked at 19% in 1981. Today you can get rates under 5%, home prices are much higher, but so are wages. I was born in 1950 and my first job paid the min wage of $1.40/hr. In 1988 I was only making just $13/hr working for Hawaiian. I realized I would never be able to buy a home at that rate so decided to go full time in what I was already doing part time, tree trimming.
I have only a high school education, but made enough that a bank was willing to give me a $3500 a month mortgage loan as well as another equipment loan which was $2650 a month.
I have two other friends, in their 40s who got laid off 2 years ago when the owner of the small construction company retired. Both started their own business. One is already making over $100k a year and the other is making enough to support his family. Both also have only high school education. You don't need college to make a good living.
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$11,000 a year for resident
I have 2 kids there. Costs the same as one kid at Iolani. (For 2 kids)
http://www.catalog.hawaii.edu/tuitionfees/regtuition.htm
P.S. None of my kids went to Iolani. Na Alii Baby !
Good thing I finished. When I 1st got into UH it was $3500 a year, then when I left it was $6000. My dad was on my ass to hurry and graduate.
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I'm way over 50. But hard work and common sense will allow you to thrive in any economic situation.
My first job was hard work and paid $1.65 per hour.
I went to trade school and rode a bicycle.
Today I have a 3bdrm house, 2 cars, 4 kids and a dog.
I do not live in Kahala, but it's a pretty nice neighborhood with zero crime.
My point is that if you aren't hell bent on trying to impress people with blingy things, you can have nice things and live well without accruing horrendous debt.
like Rocky sez...."act your wage"
+1
I work in the construction trades and I run across all sorts of kids getting a huge break in certain trades. Most of them are working hard and will eventually make a living wage. And BTW, two I know of are supporting a wife and kid(s). Some either don’t want to put in the time and effort and a couple don’t have very good common sense and do stupid things. They will never make it. But I agree completely that one has to work hard and put in your licks. And watch how they spend their money.
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Universities and colleges do not teach common sense. Degrees from prestigious and/or expensive schools don't mean an educated individual or career success. One guy I used to work with was one of the dumbest smart people I know. I mean, he was intelligent in terms of being able (or more like disciplined enough) to be a good engineer, but he lacked awareness and common sense. He's literally the type that could calculate on the fly the effect of the wind on a piss stream, but then he'd go to put his theory in to action and ended up pissing directly into the wind. He was also a very dangerous smart person in that he felt that he was so smart that he never thought to question anything that he did nor think to ask questions of anyone, even with much more experience, because he felt he knew it all. Hell, who is gonna question a Stanford grad. . . Anyways, I caught one error in his design for connections for steel beams. It could have resulted in a walkway collapse like in Kansas City, MO. He felt he knew how to calculate the capacity of the connection, meanwhile ignoring the design charts in the steel manuals.
Beyond that, like mentioned above, one still has to put in the work. Nothing in this world comes free.
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You did. They require more years of education beyond what a trade school can offer. That's why they are taught at universities. What? You want a trade school doc to perform surgery?
No, I want to get a degree that specializes in a certain area without having to take general education courses that have nothing to do with my area of study. History had nothing to do with my degree yet I had to take two courses in history, for example.
But to use you example, if I want to be a doctor then I shouldn't need an art class and a history class and a language class. Those things just add on to the time and cost.
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No, I want to get a degree that specializes in a certain area without having to take general education courses that have nothing to do with my area of study. History had nothing to do with my degree yet I had to take two courses in history, for example.
But to use you example, if I want to be a doctor then I shouldn't need an art class and a history class and a language class. Those things just add on to the time and cost.
I never took an art class for general college. I did take history. I think one of those might even help you.
General college gives you options to develop a well-rounded view of the world and life. It also provides fundamental knowledge that everyone can use.
For instance, I took Philosophy, Electronics, English Composition, Library Science, Speech and Communications, German, PE, and many other courses that teach you some things that are ancillary to your major as well as fundamentals that assist no matter what you major is.
Undergrad courses are not supposed to teach you a profession. They are supposed to give you a fundamental introduction into your field, and the rest is teaching you how to learn.
Either job experience or graduate level courses are then needed to continue your education. If a 4-year degree was meant to make you into a professional, every undergrad graduate would enter the workforce making major big bucks. That's rarely the case with a degree alone.
Even trade schools don't make you into a professional. You need to apprentice or have other job experience or advanced training, too.
I'd rather employ someone who can write, make a speech and locate research material for a report than someone with a 2 year degree in their major.
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IMO, higher education facilitates critical thinking. That comes with a well rounded education and not just technical. I have a degree in engineering, but I found classes in literature, religion, sociology, etc very interesting. It taught me to digest the information, evaluate and decide for myself. Even for engineering, I don't use the knowledge gained in 300 and 400 level courses directly, but it formed the basis for judgement used in engineering. Most of what one needs to be a good engineer can be learned on the job. The profession recognizes this in that it allows a path to licensure through experience, but that experience level is much higher than for someone with a degree in engineering.
Even then, I've found that in engineering, you get promoted based on technical expertise. However, eventually you get to the management level and where many engineers end up failing because they are, well, too technical and are essentially inept at people skills needed to become a successful manager. That is thankfully something that my current organization is aware of an invests a good amount in that arena of professional development.
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Even then, I've found that in engineering, you get promoted based on technical expertise. However, eventually you get to the management level and where many engineers end up failing because they are, well, too technical and are essentially inept at people skills needed to become a successful manager. That is thankfully something that my current organization is aware of an invests a good amount in that arena of professional development.
Ever hear of the Peter Principle?
“The Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach the levels of their respective incompetence.”
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Ever hear of the Peter Principle?
“The Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach the levels of their respective incompetence.”
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Haven't heard of that, but I can definitely say that when I first was promoted to project manager, I had reached my "respective level of incompetence". :oops: :shake:
Of course that was over a decade ago now, and I have sort of come full circle in that my current position I am back to more technical than manager/supervisor. Many in my field do that, but many also tend to do that in their later 50s and early 60s. I guess I am wise beyond my years? ;D
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Haven't heard of that, but I can definitely say that when I first was promoted to project manager, I had reached my "respective level of incompetence". :oops: :shake:
Of course that was over a decade ago now, and I have sort of come full circle in that my current position I am back to more technical than manager/supervisor. Many in my field do that, but many also tend to do that in their later 50s and early 60s. I guess I am wise beyond my years? ;D
Been there. Done that myself. I left a couple of jobs because I accepted promotions that I shouldn’t have. That’s one reason I stick with inspection. My company already offered the promotion to run the dept. I turned them down. Told them it was too much stress. But the real reason is I am not a good manager and I know it.
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Been there. Done that myself. I left a couple of jobs because I accepted promotions that I shouldn’t have. That’s one reason I stick with inspection. My company already offered the promotion to run the dept. I turned them down. Told them it was too much stress. But the real reason is I am not a good manager and I know it.
Nobody likes you or will listen to you? ??? :o
Kidding. . . ;D
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Nobody likes you or will listen to you? ??? :o
Kidding. . . ;D
Truth is I hate firing people. :shake:
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Truth is I hate firing people. :shake:
Haha. Me too. Never had to do that, at least directly.
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Haha. Me too. Never had to do that, at least directly.
I have had to fire people directly. It sucks. I can tell a contractor to fuck off but I find it hard to fire someone.
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Inspector and drck1000,
Y'all need to take lesson from Donald Trump.
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Inspector and drck1000,
Y'all need to take lesson from Donald Trump.
I have natural and full head of hair. Don’t need no lessons on that. :P
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One of my fondest memories of college education was when I was the Building Engineer of an accredited 4 yr college.
The Design and Engineering Dept had a problem with their large slide viewing table.
Seems the cord was too short to reach the outlet by about a foot.
After much deliberation, they decided that the solution was for me to either lengthen the cord or relocate the outlet closer to the table.
I still remember the look on their faces when I pulled the table a foot closer to the outlet. :o
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I have natural and full head of hair. Don’t need no lessons on that. :P
heads
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I never took an art class for general college. I did take history. I think one of those might even help you.
General college gives you options to develop a well-rounded view of the world and life. It also provides fundamental knowledge that everyone can use.
For instance, I took Philosophy, Electronics, English Composition, Library Science, Speech and Communications, German, PE, and many other courses that teach you some things that are ancillary to your major as well as fundamentals that assist no matter what you major is.
Undergrad courses are not supposed to teach you a profession. They are supposed to give you a fundamental introduction into your field, and the rest is teaching you how to learn.
Either job experience or graduate level courses are then needed to continue your education. If a 4-year degree was meant to make you into a professional, every undergrad graduate would enter the workforce making major big bucks. That's rarely the case with a degree alone.
Even trade schools don't make you into a professional. You need to apprentice or have other job experience or advanced training, too.
I'd rather employ someone who can write, make a speech and locate research material for a report than someone with a 2 year degree in their major.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed many of the classes I took that had nothing to do with my major. I was nearly always taking 18 credits a semester and I still couldn't finish in 4 years (No, I didn't fail any classes either). Luckily resident rate at UH wasn't very high at the time. Now if you want to throw in English classes then sure a basic grasp of English is necessary for a college education.
My point about all these extra classes is that they add to the cost of an education and sometimes they are not necessary. If you are a school teacher then sure, you need a wide field of study, but a lot of other people don't need all these extra courses and when people are paying $20,000 a year to go to college. If they can shave off a year of unnecessary courses that is huge.
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Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed many of the classes I took that had nothing to do with my major. I was nearly always taking 18 credits a semester and I still couldn't finish in 4 years (No, I didn't fail any classes either). Luckily resident rate at UH wasn't very high at the time. Now if you want to throw in English classes then sure a basic grasp of English is necessary for a college education.
My point about all these extra classes is that they add to the cost of an education and sometimes they are not necessary. If you are a school teacher then sure, you need a wide field of study, but a lot of other people don't need all these extra courses and when people are paying $20,000 a year to go to college. If they can shave off a year of unnecessary courses that is huge.
Maybe you should get a degree in education and do your research project on that. I guess no one in the history of higher education has ever thought of shortening a 4 year degree program to 3 or less. If they had thought of it, they would have done it by now, because they have no interest in keeping the schools full of tuition-paying students longer than necessary.
You seem to have all the questions. Use that degree for something besides resume padding and find some answers.
We have degree standards for a reason in the US. Employers want a certain level of education from college graduates. How competitive would you be against 4-year+ degree graduates with your 2 1/2 year discounted no-frills diploma?
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This is why I’m against paying for others’ college tuition.
https://www.facebook.com/135665180202998/photos/a.135973656838817/548536645582514/?type=3 (https://www.facebook.com/135665180202998/photos/a.135973656838817/548536645582514/?type=3)
Sorry if the link takes you to the main page. The meme I’m talking about starts with “I picked a useless major...”.
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Maybe you should get a degree in education and do your research project on that. I guess no one in the history of higher education has ever thought of shortening a 4 year degree program to 3 or less. If they had thought of it, they would have done it by now, because they have no interest in keeping the schools full of tuition-paying students longer than necessary.
You seem to have all the questions. Use that degree for something besides resume padding and find some answers.
We have degree standards for a reason in the US. Employers want a certain level of education from college graduates. How competitive would you be against 4-year+ degree graduates with your 2 1/2 year discounted no-frills diploma?
I gave you my answer. Eliminate unnecessary general ed classes. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean my answer is going to change.
You want to be more competitive? Why not make a standard education 5 years or 6, make employers even more happy that they are getting smarter students. But if you don't want to fall below that arbitrary 4 year standard why not just eliminate unrelated general ed classes and replace them with more classes related to the persons major?
Besides, when my tax money is going to pay to subsidized educations I would prefer a money saving option.
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I gave you my answer. Eliminate unnecessary general ed classes. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean my answer is going to change.
You want to be more competitive? Why not make a standard education 5 years or 6, make employers even more happy that they are getting smarter students. But if you don't want to fall below that arbitrary 4 year standard why not just eliminate unrelated general ed classes and replace them with more classes related to the persons major?
Besides, when my tax money is going to pay to subsidized educations I would prefer a money saving option.
Your answer doesn't match the question.
The question (since you ignored/can't understand it) is: WHY do 4 year degree programs require general college courses?
4 years is not arbitrary. Like I said, do some research. You're making statements that are not true.
"Your tax money?" You need to thank Trump for letting you keep more of your income instead of handing it to the tax man.
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Your answer doesn't match the question.
The question (since you ignored/can't understand it) is: WHY do 4 year degree programs require general college courses?
4 years is not arbitrary. Like I said, do some research. You're making statements that are not true.
"Your tax money?" You need to thank Trump for letting you keep more of your income instead of handing it to the tax man.
Yes, my tax money, and you completely sidestepped the issue I raised about reducing government spending.
I don't care why colleges want general education courses as part of 4 year degrees that is why I am not addressing it. My suggestion is to eliminate it, I am not trying to find out why it exists.
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Yes, my tax money, and you completely sidestepped the issue I raised about reducing government spending.
I don't care why colleges want general education courses as part of 4 year degrees that is why I am not addressing it. My suggestion is to eliminate it, I am not trying to find out why it exists.
You want to get rid of something, even though you have no idea why it exists in the first place?
So much for "Mr. Objectivity," That's one of the most uninformed opinions I've read lately -- and that's saying a whole helluva lot!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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I gave you my answer. Eliminate unnecessary general ed classes. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean my answer is going to change.
Agreed, there are many unnecessary classes at the college level. Why the hell do I need to take history, religion, calculus, etc... when I'm going to be a business major? We are indoctrinated from the start to think we need these classes at the college level. It's just a way for the colleges to make more money because it keeps you there longer.
Why do I need to take 12 years of history at the high school level. Nothing changed. Instead they should teach "life skills".
The 3 classes I did learn from at UH was my US military history, interrogation class and by law class. Other than that, I remember little to nothing of all the others I was forced to take.
Even my wife remembers more about the classes because she sat with me in some of them. She was my gf at the time.
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While I believe that a more well rounded college/university level curriculum better prepares individuals for their professions/careers, I do see the point that not everyone I will need it or even looking for that. So I see the point in streamlining the process. To that end, I believe a big part of that is the accreditation process. It’s established and accepted and I don’t see it changing quickly. The individual schools are just falling in line. I bet they were part of that process for sure, but it’s the system.
Much like sustainability. Someone at a high level got someone in government at a high level to buy in that that’s as a good idea. Got it written into regulations and it because a requirement. Then most attention is on how to comply as to questioning why one needs to comply.
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Agreed, there are many unnecessary classes at the college level. Why the hell do I need to take history, religion, calculus, etc... when I'm going to be a business major? We are indoctrinated from the start to think we need these classes at the college level. It's just a way for the colleges to make more money because it keeps you there longer.
Why do I need to take 12 years of history at the high school level. Nothing changed. Instead they should teach "life skills".
The 3 classes I did learn from at UH was my US military history, interrogation class and by law class. Other than that, I remember little to nothing of all the others I was forced to take.
Even my wife remembers more about the classes because she sat with me in some of them. She was my gf at the time.
It's very simple. If you want just classes to get an education, then you can go for 2-year associate's degree, attend a technical school that could lead to an accreditation or license, or attend classes in a regular college or university without seeking an actual bachelor's degree. The options are out there.
What you and EEF are suggesting is that you should be able to obtain a 4-year degree without completing the required 4 years of classwork.
2 years of the degree are general (liberal arts) courses, and 2 years are in your major/minor (roughly).
The freshman year of college is basically a continuation of high school, to ensure you have the prerequisite knowledge to grasp the more advanced classes. That includes English, algebra, and in some disciplines, calculus. Not all high schools prepare their graduates to the same level as others. It seems redundant to have to take algebra again if you took it in high school, but that's what placement tests are for. If you can't demonstrate algebra skills, then you enroll in the class. Can't get any more objective than that.
Scattered throughout the freshman and sophomore years are classes to expand on your overall education. We laugh at interviews of college students unable to answer basic questions in important areas, so why are we suggesting students not be required to take political science, history or other classes outside of their majors? Isn't the goal to educate, not just produce workers? Hoping these students learn about these things on their own obviously isn't based in reality, given the number of people who believe Socialism works -- just not yet, because .... we'll figure it out.
The requirements are set by national boards that accredit schools and their degree programs. Universities & colleges develop their programs, and they are approved based on, among other things, number of credit hours required to graduate.
Once you have that degree, you then qualify to enroll in a Master's program. Most Master's Degrees only take 2 years if you take a full 12 hour load per semester. So, if you intend to go into law or medical school, you really have no choice -- get the BS/BA first. Otherwise, pick your own curriculum plan. Just don't complain that your choices don't include a diploma or the kind of diploma you wanted.
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What I'm referring to is not a 4 year college degree, but a degree that doesn't waste time/money by taking classes I don't need. If I'm going to be a doctor, why do I need to take History 101 & 102? I should be taking more doctor type classes. Maybe even a class in "how to communicate with patients" or something can be created to replace history and art.
Graduates now fail at interviews because in college, you're taught to memorize and not learn/think for your self. My wife got A's in school. But lacks the ability to figure stuff out if step 1 doesn't work. Where as myself, I got C's, but can figure stuff out. So book smart (memorization) vs. street smarts. And honestly, I was just to lazy to study (memorize) for exams. So C's get degree's was my mentality. So what changed in 1 generation of college that students now cannot figure stuff out?
The entire college system needs to be redone, so these national boards mean nothing and are just part of the "system". But unfortunately, it doesn't matter what I think/feel, this is the system that everyone is part of, even my future kids. So I will make them go to college. But the wife will be responsible for schooling, and I'll be responsible for sports.
Yes I could go to a trade school, but for an office job, many require/prefer business type degrees (marketing, accounting, management, etc...) from a university.
I have a friend who's an electrical engineer and he works on nuclear subs. I asked him what he does and he said he translates the manual and tells the Navy guys how to install stuff. So like "put the round peg in the round hole. Put the square peg in the square hole". I asked if any thing he learned at EE school helped him. He said not a damn thing, it's all OTJ training. Not even the terms in the manuals were taught in EE school. I thought at least the language that EE's use would have been applied and he said no. But this is just his job, I'm sure other EE's use what they learned in EE school.
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What I'm referring to is not a 4 year college degree, but a degree that doesn't waste time/money by taking classes I don't need. If I'm going to be a doctor, why do I need to take History 101 & 102? I should be taking more doctor type classes. Maybe even a class in "how to communicate with patients" or something can be created to replace history and art.
Graduates now fail at interviews because in college, you're taught to memorize and not learn/think for your self. My wife got A's in school. But lacks the ability to figure stuff out if step 1 doesn't work. Where as myself, I got C's, but can figure stuff out. So book smart (memorization) vs. street smarts. And honestly, I was just to lazy to study (memorize) for exams. So C's get degree's was my mentality. So what changed in 1 generation of college that students now cannot figure stuff out?
The entire college system needs to be redone, so these national boards mean nothing and are just part of the "system". But unfortunately, it doesn't matter what I think/feel, this is the system that everyone is part of, even my future kids. So I will make them go to college. But the wife will be responsible for schooling, and I'll be responsible for sports.
Yes I could go to a trade school, but for an office job, many require/prefer business type degrees (marketing, accounting, management, etc...) from a university.
I have a friend who's an electrical engineer and he works on nuclear subs. I asked him what he does and he said he translates the manual and tells the Navy guys how to install stuff. So like "put the round peg in the round hole. Put the square peg in the square hole". I asked if any thing he learned at EE school helped him. He said not a damn thing, it's all OTJ training. Not even the terms in the manuals were taught in EE school. I thought at least the language that EE's use would have been applied and he said no. But this is just his job, I'm sure other EE's use what they learned in EE school.
Most large employers will substitute experience for a degree. In government, they actually have a scale depending on the level of job. 3-5 years experience in the field can make you eligible in lieu of a BA/BS degree. 7-10 years can earn you a Master's Degree's worth of experience. The key is to get your foot in the door. So, if all the other applicants have a 4 year degree and no experience, and you have 2 years OJT and an associate's degree, you could be competitive depending on the job and the hiring policies.
Certain contracts (gov't mostly) require proposals from interested companies meet specific guidelines for the people working the contract. If they specify a degree, the hiring firm has no say in it unless they are willing to negotiate on your behalf with the contracting agency.
It gets complicated in today's market. But it used to come down to this: if you're competing for the same job others want, why would you not check all the boxes that they can? Your resume and college degree will get you the interview. The interview is what gets you the job.
Why do doctors need history classes? Are you implying only history teachers and historical researchers need history classes?
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Why do doctors need history classes? Are you implying only history teachers and historical researchers need history classes?
Yes, because history is taught in grades K-12 already. So use the slot to either graduate faster (remove it) or fill it with something toward their major. That's my whole though on the educational system.
My major was speech, below are the classes that I had to take that have no affect on my major or life:
1) History (2 semesters)
2) Japanese (4 semesters)
3) Religion (2 semesters)
4) Geography (1 semester)
5) Oceanography (1 semester, replaced biology credit)
6) Food Science Health Nutrition (1 semester, replaced chemistry)
7) Calculus (2 semesters)
That's all I can remember so if I didn't have to take any of the above, I could have graduated 1.5 years earlier and saved money. That's 1.5 years of OTJ that I could have gotten.
My original major was going to be business marketing, but I couldn't get into the school of business because my GPA was to low for my undergrad classes. But I was allowed to take 5 business classes in the school of business and got all A's. So even though I excelled in the business specific classes, I was denied entry due to having low undergrad GPA (C). That's why I switched to speech. I'm luck though that my major had nothing to do with my career. Went into the family industry. So I could have majored in art and still been doing what I do now.
That's good that fed jobs allow XP to be counted. But many corporate jobs, degree's out weight XP, especially the bigger companies. I have 1 friend who has an accounting degree and the other who worked as a bookkeeper without a degree for many years. The one with no XP got the interview at a big accounting firm here. The bookkeeper didn't even get an interview. I know they both applied for the same company, but IDK what job they applied for and when (probably wasn't the same time).
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Yes, because history is taught in grades K-12 already. So use the slot to either graduate faster (remove it) or fill it with something toward their major. That's my whole though on the educational system.
My major was speech, below are the classes that I had to take that have no affect on my major or life:
1) History (2 semesters)
2) Japanese (4 semesters)
3) Religion (2 semesters)
4) Geography (1 semester)
5) Oceanography (1 semester, replaced biology credit)
6) Food Science Health Nutrition (1 semester, replaced chemistry)
7) Calculus (2 semesters)
That's all I can remember so if I didn't have to take any of the above, I could have graduated 1.5 years earlier and saved money. That's 1.5 years of OTJ that I could have gotten.
My original major was going to be business marketing, but I couldn't get into the school of business because my GPA was to low for my undergrad classes. But I was allowed to take 5 business classes in the school of business and got all A's. So even though I excelled in the business specific classes, I was denied entry due to having low undergrad GPA (C). That's why I switched to speech. I'm luck though that my major had nothing to do with my career. Went into the family industry. So I could have majored in art and still been doing what I do now.
That's good that fed jobs allow XP to be counted. But many corporate jobs, degree's out weight XP, especially the bigger companies. I have 1 friend who has an accounting degree and the other who worked as a bookkeeper without a degree for many years. The one with no XP got the interview at a big accounting firm here. The bookkeeper didn't even get an interview. I know they both applied for the same company, but IDK what job they applied for and when (probably wasn't the same time).
Everyone is the accumulation of his/her decisions. You're where you are because YOU decided. No one held a gun to your head or threatened your existence if you didn't attend college, right?
With the cost of tuition today, I'd almost say it's better to enter the job force in the area you like and get 4 years OJT. You'll be well on your way to promotion, have had 4 years of earning a living to maybe save for education, and not have a masive student loan debt weighing you down for 20-30 years. For some professions, that's not an option, but for many, it is.
And never dismiss the military as an avenue for education and OJT. I earned a 4-year ROTC scholarship for my undergrad degree, and paid it back with service (4 yrs active & 2 yrs reserve was required). I got out after 9 years and became a contractor. I did the undergrad requirements for an MBA while the Air Force helped pay, but after separating, moving and spending too much time on travel, school had to wait.
I've never felt lacking a master's degree held me back. My reputation and experience was my ticket anywhere I wanted to go.
I've since paid back in multiples by sending 2 girls to college at HPU.
If I'd not gotten the scholarship, which actually almost happened due to a failed physical, I would have initially joined the Air Force as enlisted. But, after making through one semester on financial aid and part time employment, I decided to keep going to graduation. My waiver came through 2 days before the end of the first semester, so it all worked out, and I was a commissioned officer 3 1/2 years later.
Everybody has a story. My career and degree had to match, since I was under contract with the Air Force. Many change majors multiple times because they have no plan for themselves. Others pick something fun only to learn after graduation it doesn't pay the rent. Not enough can be said for planning, seeking advice and making a mature, objective decision about school. It's not for everyone. Just ask Mike Rowe.
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Actually has quite a bit of truth here.
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You want to get rid of something, even though you have no idea why it exists in the first place?
So much for "Mr. Objectivity," That's one of the most uninformed opinions I've read lately -- and that's saying a whole helluva lot!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
You are trying to change the issue. The origins are not relevant to my point. I am saying that it is not necessary now! Focus on the point instead of trying to troll something else.
How about this, if you want to keep it around then you prove why it is necessary.
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Agreed, there are many unnecessary classes at the college level. Why the hell do I need to take history, religion, calculus, etc... when I'm going to be a business major? We are indoctrinated from the start to think we need these classes at the college level. It's just a way for the colleges to make more money because it keeps you there longer.
Why do I need to take 12 years of history at the high school level. Nothing changed. Instead they should teach "life skills".
The 3 classes I did learn from at UH was my US military history, interrogation class and by law class. Other than that, I remember little to nothing of all the others I was forced to take.
Even my wife remembers more about the classes because she sat with me in some of them. She was my gf at the time.
Exactly. Plus they throw in all this general ed stuff that might be great if you go on Jeopardy but how many college students know how to change their car oil or even a tire? If the goal is to be well rounded then there is a whole lot college is missing!
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You are trying to change the issue. The origins are not relevant to my point. I am saying that it is not necessary now! Focus on the point instead of trying to troll something else.
How about this, if you want to keep it around then you prove why it is necessary.
You made the claim the courses are not necessary. Where are your supporting Google links?
You made the claim, it's on you to back them up. That's according to your rules. :popcorn:
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Exactly. Plus they throw in all this general ed stuff that might be great if you go on Jeopardy but how many college students know how to change their car oil or even a tire? If the goal is to be well rounded then there is a whole lot college is missing!
LOL!!! Are you serious?
The whole reason for going to college is to make enough so you don't have to change your own oil or flat tire!
If you want to learn auto mechanics, go down the street to the automotive trade school. 15 months, and you'll have your apprentice certificate, ready to start at Lex Brodies.
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You made the claim the courses are not necessary. Where are your supporting Google links?
You made the claim, it's on you to back them up. That's according to your rules. :popcorn:
I don't think there is any research done that the undergrad stuff is or is not a waste of time (might be buried if it turns out it is). Just thinking about it logically. If someone is going to school to be a doctor, why is History needed? Maybe a course in medical history, but learning about Ghangis Khan and such has no bearing on the persons major.
I think eye's whole point is eliminate the unnecessary classes with a class geared toward your major or eliminate all together to graduate faster. So if the system still wants that 4 year title, then replace the classes with something useful.
And yes, no one forced me to go to UH, but my parents would have been disappointed if I didn't go. So was it really an option not to go? I'm the first in my family to graduate from college (includes uncles, cousins, and aunties). My dad even highly suggested that I don't be a bartender or waiter because I will love having buku cash in my pocket at all times and eventually drop out. Which is what he did in the 80's. I really wanted to go into the service industry because I saw my other friends with a wad.
I'm not trying to be argumentative either. So I apologize if anything I typed is offensive. :shaka:
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LOL!!! Are you serious?
The whole reason for going to college is to make enough so you don't have to change your own oil or flat tire!
If you want to learn auto mechanics, go down the street to the automotive trade school. 15 months, and you'll have your apprentice certificate, ready to start at Lex Brodies.
They should teach "life skills" at the high school level. Tire change, taxes, resume, interviews, cooking, etc...1 could argue that it's the parents job to teach these, but yet many don't. And parents could also teach history if they wanted to.
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They should teach "life skills" at the high school level. Tire change, taxes, resume, interviews, cooking, etc...1 could argue that it's the parents job to teach these, but yet many don't. And parents could also teach history if they wanted to.
My point is, EEF wants to pretend if a college wants to create "well rounded" students, they need to teach students everything which should have been learned somewhere/sometime else in life. Otherwise, the definition of "well rounded" doesn't meet his personal meaning.
It's a fallacy: Strawman. He's full of those.
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The Purpose of Gen Ed Courses
For some students, general education courses are a puzzle. If you’re majoring in Business, why do you have to study Biology?
Colleges have several reasons for requiring general education courses. First, many students have uncovered a hidden passion for a field of
study as a result of taking a required course. After enjoying a class, you may find yourself minoring or even majoring in a topic you would have
never considered.
Second, required courses ensure that every college graduate has the same basic set of tools. Colleges want you to graduate
with strong analytical and writing skills, plus a basic understanding of modern society. General education courses ensure that Chemistry majors
can communicate via writing and English majors understand the scientific method.
https://www.bestvalueschools.com/faq/what-are-general-education-courses/
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When I was younger, I too often questioned why we were forced to learn about stuff like history (I actually fulfilled my history credit at UH summer school), social studies, etc. As I got older and hopefully wiser, I wish I had more of that. Admittesly, it’s a personal interest, but I still believe one needs to know where they came from to guide where they are going.
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https://www.bestvalueschools.com/faq/what-are-general-education-courses/
I personally think all these studies are bias to support the "system", so no one questions it. Like how momsdemandaction and everytown have studies that show guns are bad (19K people died by guns, but 60% were suicides, etc...)
I could also go to the beach and come across a turtle and discover I want to help animals. I don't have to spend thousands of dollars just in case I want to change my life's focus.
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When I was younger, I too often questioned why we were forced to learn about stuff like history (I actually fulfilled my history credit at UH summer school), social studies, etc. As I got older and hopefully wiser, I wish I had more of that. Admittesly, it’s a personal interest, but I still believe one needs to know where they came from to guide where they are going.
Can be taught at the high school level which is free. Taught at the college level cost thousands of dollars and time.
I have a great interest in military history, but the books only taught me 1 chapter for WW1, 1 chapter for WW2 etc...So I do my owned learning online now.
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When I was younger, I too often questioned why we were forced to learn about stuff like history (I actually fulfilled my history credit at UH summer school), social studies, etc. As I got older and hopefully wiser, I wish I had more of that. Admittesly, it’s a personal interest, but I still believe one needs to know where they came from to guide where they are going.
I think technology is affecting how younger people see education and its value. When they can Google to find the answer to almost any question, the only class they see having any real purpose would be Advanced Search Engine Operator.
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Can be taught at the high school level which is free. Taught at the college level cost thousands of dollars and time.
I have a great interest in military history, but the books only taught me 1 chapter for WW1, 1 chapter for WW2 etc...So I do my owned learning online now.
I wasn’t saying needs to be at college level. And the history class at UH was a joke. About half each class was a useless video.
I am for streamlining higher education and I generally agree that most professions involved tons of OJT. That said, I think that reducing it to “major specific” courses only will leave the world a bunch of Sheldon Coopers.
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I wasn’t saying needs to be at college level. And the history class at UH was a joke. About half each class was a useless video.
I am for streamlining higher education and I generally agree that most professions involved tons of OJT. That said, I think that reducing it to “major specific” courses only will leave the world a bunch of Sheldon Coopers.
"You're in my spot"
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"You're in my spot"
“Was that sarcasm?”
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“Was that sarcasm?”
Holds up sign. ;D ;D ;D
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Can be taught at the high school level which is free. Taught at the college level cost thousands of dollars and time.
I have a great interest in military history, but the books only taught me 1 chapter for WW1, 1 chapter for WW2 etc...So I do my owned learning online now.
Knock 32 hours of gen ed off the total, and you'd spend ~100 hours divided by 8 semesters = 12.5 hours per semester.
Most colleges count 12+ hours in a semester as full-time. If you take 12 hours or 15 or 18, it costs the same.
So, cost-wise, you can go for 4 years without gen ed classes and you pay the same amount -- just 1-2 fewer classes each semester.
If you continue at 15-18 hours per semester, then you potentially could save money by graduating about 2 semesters earlier. You'd get your degree in 3 years, not 4.
BUT, if everybody drops to 3 year programs, you know the schools are going to raise tuition rates to make up the difference. Whether you're paying tuition that 4th year or not, they still have to pay professors, building maintenance, admin staff, etc, etc, etc.
In the long term, the school will dictate what your degree costs. You might save a year of your life, but the school will force you to pay the same -- they just won't have to expend that money on your 4th year of instruction. Win-win for the school.
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I always use this from my life as an example.
In high school I took basic and advanced algebra. Got out of high school and started college and dropped out. Never in my life did I think I would ever use most of my knowledge. I went to work in the construction industry. Guess what? I needed algebra to do my job!
And I took history and social studies in HS. Now I have a love of history and politics.
None of this includes the classes I would later take when I went back to college. The classes I enjoyed the most in college were communications.
Bottom line for me is that not all of the classes I took that were related to my major were helpful to me in my life. But some are. You never know which classes will be helpful to you in your life. This is what being well rounded is all about. JMHO
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Knock 32 hours of gen ed off the total, and you'd spend ~100 hours divided by 8 semesters = 12.5 hours per semester.
Most colleges count 12+ hours in a semester as full-time. If you take 12 hours or 15 or 18, it costs the same.
So, cost-wise, you can go for 4 years without gen ed classes and you pay the same amount -- just 1-2 fewer classes each semester.
If you continue at 15-18 hours per semester, then you potentially could save money by graduating about 2 semesters earlier. You'd get your degree in 3 years, not 4.
BUT, if everybody drops to 3 year programs, you know the schools are going to raise tuition rates to make up the difference. Whether you're paying tuition that 4th year or not, they still have to pay professors, building maintenance, admin staff, etc, etc, etc.
In the long term, the school will dictate what your degree costs. You might save a year of your life, but the school will force you to pay the same -- they just won't have to expend that money on your 4th year of instruction. Win-win for the school.
You’re kinda arguing their point (at least the way I perceived it). Was that the curriculum is partially a college and accreditation racket. We’re all stuck following the rules that they set up. Similar could be said with healthcare industry, but would need to start a whole other thread on that one.
I still believe core courses are beneficial to most college students. Most don’t even know what they want to do with life. I know I enjoyed the non-major courses that I took. And since my university charges by the credit, I surely could have saved $$$ if I didn’t have to take English 200. But then again, I ended up taking guitar, so never mind me. Haha
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I always use this from my life as an example.
In high school I took basic and advanced algebra. Got out of high school and started college and dropped out. Never in my life did I think I would ever use most of my knowledge. I went to work in the construction industry. Guess what? I needed algebra to do my job!
And I took history and social studies in HS. Now I have a love of history and politics.
None of this includes the classes I would later take when I went back to college. The classes I enjoyed the most in college were communications.
Bottom line for me is that not all of the classes I took that were related to my major were helpful to me in my life. But some are. You never know which classes will be helpful to you in your life. This is what being well rounded is all about. JMHO
I think many professionals in technical fields would be well served taking some basic management courses. Might be too early in college, but definitely sometime in their career. That’s one good thing about working for the .gov. They put a lot of funding into training for being an effective leader and manager. Having taking those courses, I feel the entire workforce could benefit. It’s aboit leading and managing, as well as being able to see things from a manager’s perspective.
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I always use this from my life as an example.
In high school I took basic and advanced algebra. Got out of high school and started college and dropped out. Never in my life did I think I would ever use most of my knowledge. I went to work in the construction industry. Guess what? I needed algebra to do my job!
And I took history and social studies in HS. Now I have a love of history and politics.
None of this includes the classes I would later take when I went back to college. The classes I enjoyed the most in college were communications.
Bottom line for me is that not all of the classes I took that were related to my major were helpful to me in my life. But some are. You never know which classes will be helpful to you in your life. This is what being well rounded is all about. JMHO
It took 4 adults with college degrees to figure out the volume of a post hole needing concrete to secure a deck post in.
There are many times people can make their lives easier with a bit of knowledge. All knowledge is good. Education is the one thing no one can ever take from you. Only educating yourself in your little niche ensures you will always be stuck in that niche for life. Opportunities are taken by people who prepare themselves ahead of the "knock." Most people don't possess the curiosity and motivation to learn something new outside their comfort zone.
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I read an article once that the educational system (grade school, not college) was to keep people conformed to the factory work style. I think it was an article about the fed reserve vs. gold/silver.
In factory work in the industrial ages, you're told when to come to work, when to take a break, when to eat lunch, and when to go home. So the school system was set up in the same way. This ensured once people left school and went to work in the factories, they were used to the system. A teacher who is like a floor foreman, and a principal who is like the factory foreman telling people what to do.
But now that factory work is not a majority, the indoctrination system doesn't apply.
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I read an article once that the educational system (grade school, not college) was to keep people conformed to the factory work style. I think it was an article about the fed reserve vs. gold/silver.
In factory work in the industrial ages, you're told when to come to work, when to take a break, when to eat lunch, and when to go home. So the school system was set up in the same way. This ensured once people left school and went to work in the factories, they were used to the system. A teacher who is like a floor foreman, and a principal who is like the factory foreman telling people what to do.
But now that factory work is not a majority, the indoctrination system doesn't apply.
Taken another way, school is about discipline. In fact, your major in college is referred to as your "discipline."
Schedules, deadlines, class periods, set lunch periods, recess periods and so on are not just about factory work. it's about being able to prioritize, meet expectations and develop good habits that help us meet challenges in all endeavors -- not just employment. Setting aside a specific amount of time to relax (video games, reading, or whatever you enjoy), time to exercise, time to accomplish chores, time to study, time to socialize ... it's all about time management.
Just because schools use time management techniques similar to factories in no way suggests schools are intentionally developing factory workers. That's like saying schools teach sex ed to feed customers and professionals into the porn industry.
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It took 4 adults with college degrees to figure out the volume of a post hole needing concrete to secure a deck post in.
Funny you mentioned this. I used to teach an adult re-education class. Helping injured on the job construction workers how to be an inspector. Taught them how to do their job, taught them code interpretation and the hardest part was teaching them how to read blueprints. Also helped them study for the certification tests. Did this for a couple of years. I enjoyed teaching more than anything I have ever done in my life. Anyway, I always started the first class by trying to make a point. The point is to listen and understand what people tell you and/or ask of you. And to not respond without knowing what the correct answer is. I would hand everyone a slip of paper and instruct everyone to ONLY write their answer on the paper with their name. There are 3 possibilities. The right answer, wrong answer and do not answer if you don’t know for sure. DO NOT SPEAK. After I asked the question, I picked up the slips of paper and wrote on the white board how many people got it right, how many got it wrong, and how many didn’t answer.
Here is the question: “How many cubic feet of dirt is in a hole 2’Wide x 3’Deep x4’Long?”
Generally, 90% of the class would get the answer wrong. The rest would either have it right or not answer. I would then explain to those who didn’t answer and didn’t get it right that they didn’t listen and understand the question before they wrote their answer.
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Funny you mentioned this. I used to teach an adult re-education class. Helping injured on the job construction workers how to be an inspector. Taught them how to do their job, taught them code interpretation and the hardest part was teaching them how to read blueprints. Also helped them study for the certification tests. Did this for a couple of years. I enjoyed teaching more than anything I have ever done in my life. Anyway, I always started the first class by trying to make a point. The point is to listen and understand what people tell you and/or ask of you. And to not respond without knowing what the correct answer is. I would hand everyone a slip of paper and instruct everyone to ONLY write their answer on the paper with their name. There are 3 possibilities. The right answer, wrong answer and do not answer if you don’t know for sure. DO NOT SPEAK. After I asked the question, I picked up the slips of paper and wrote on the white board how many people got it right, how many got it wrong, and how many didn’t answer.
Here is the question: “How many cubic feet of dirt is in a hole 2’Wide x 3’Deep x4’Long?”
Generally, 90% of the class would get the answer wrong. The rest would either have it right or not answer. I would then explain to those who didn’t answer and didn’t get it right that they didn’t listen and understand the question before they wrote their answer.
Depends if someone filled the hole back up with dirt...
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Depends if someone filled the hole back up with dirt...
If they fill back up, it’s not a hole anymore. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
The point is too many didn’t get the correct answer. And that is sad.
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If they fill back up, it’s not a hole anymore. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
The point is too many didn’t get the correct answer. And that is sad.
Partial fill? ;D
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Knock 32 hours of gen ed off the total, and you'd spend ~100 hours divided by 8 semesters = 12.5 hours per semester.
Most colleges count 12+ hours in a semester as full-time. If you take 12 hours or 15 or 18, it costs the same.
So, cost-wise, you can go for 4 years without gen ed classes and you pay the same amount -- just 1-2 fewer classes each semester.
If you continue at 15-18 hours per semester, then you potentially could save money by graduating about 2 semesters earlier. You'd get your degree in 3 years, not 4.
BUT, if everybody drops to 3 year programs, you know the schools are going to raise tuition rates to make up the difference. Whether you're paying tuition that 4th year or not, they still have to pay professors, building maintenance, admin staff, etc, etc, etc.
In the long term, the school will dictate what your degree costs. You might save a year of your life, but the school will force you to pay the same -- they just won't have to expend that money on your 4th year of instruction. Win-win for the school.
Why do you say colleges would raise tuition? Fewer students would mean less need for services. I see no reason that the cost of operating a college wouldn't scale down to match people graduating in 3 years instead of 4. It wouldn't make sense to maintain the same level of services when there is reduced need/demand.
You are right that some people can study extra hard and graduate early but not everyone can afford to go above 12 credits due to other obligations they might have.
On top of all of this is housing costs. Even if colleges did charge more per credit on a 3 year degree as you suggest, a college student in a dorm is still going to save a years worth of dorm costs with a shorter program.
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You made the claim the courses are not necessary. Where are your supporting Google links?
You made the claim, it's on you to back them up. That's according to your rules. :popcorn:
It isn't my job to prove a negative.
Otherwise my wife would be happy to sell you some Noni juice until you can prove you don't need it.
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My point is, EEF wants to pretend if a college wants to create "well rounded" students, they need to teach students everything which should have been learned somewhere/sometime else in life. Otherwise, the definition of "well rounded" doesn't meet his personal meaning.
It's a fallacy: Strawman. He's full of those.
The point, that you missed, is that the argument that we need well rounded college graduates is inherently subjective and arbitrary.
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Why do you say colleges would raise tuition? Fewer students would mean less need for services. I see no reason that the cost of operating a college wouldn't scale down to match people graduating in 3 years instead of 4. It wouldn't make sense to maintain the same level of services when there is reduced need/demand.
You are right that some people can study extra hard and graduate early but not everyone can afford to go above 12 credits due to other obligations they might have.
On top of all of this is housing costs. Even if colleges did charge more per credit on a 3 year degree as you suggest, a college student in a dorm is still going to save a years worth of dorm costs with a shorter program.
Students have housing costs no matter where they live, just like eating. You can't say you're saving housing that 4th year by not being in school if you're paying rent elsewhere,
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It isn't my job to prove a negative.
Otherwise my wife would be happy to sell you some Noni juice until you can prove you don't need it.
You don't understand what you're saying. "Proving a negative" implies existence of something or behavior. "Prove the Devil doesn't exist." "Prove you didn't take the last cookie." Those are negatives.
Asking you to support your claim that the classes are not needed is not the same. Can you prove you've never served jail time? Of course you can, because we know there would be a record. No record = no jail time. Can you prove you have never had a traffic ticket? Of course you can. Just request a driving abstract.
So, if you can't prove something that's provable, saying it's "a negative" when it's not is a dodge.
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The point, that you missed, is that the argument that we need well rounded college graduates is inherently subjective and arbitrary.
You really should read more, and not just comic books.
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Students have housing costs no matter where they live, just like eating. You can't say you're saving housing that 4th year by not being in school if you're paying rent elsewhere,
Except that after they graduate they could go get a job and that year of housing costs would be paid for by a job instead of increasing someone's debt.
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You don't understand what you're saying. "Proving a negative" implies existence of something or behavior. "Prove the Devil doesn't exist." "Prove you didn't take the last cookie." Those are negatives.
Asking you to support your claim that the classes are not needed is not the same. Can you prove you've never served jail time? Of course you can, because we know there would be a record. No record = no jail time. Can you prove you have never had a traffic ticket? Of course you can. Just request a driving abstract.
So, if you can't prove something that's provable, saying it's "a negative" when it's not is a dodge.
You want me to prove it isn't necessary. The burden is to prove it is necessary.
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You really should read more, and not just comic books.
Ad hom. Holy fallacy batman!
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Except that after they graduate they could go get a job and that year of housing costs would be paid for by a job instead of increasing someone's debt.
I guarantee if you're living on campus, your housing cost is lower than the rental market for the area. That offsets any interest on the debt you may incur, assuming you're relying on loans to pay for school instead of working to save the money during the Summer months.
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You want me to prove it isn't necessary. The burden is to prove it is necessary.
BS
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Ad hom. Holy fallacy batman!
You can't even spell the entire name.
Holy stupidity, everybody!
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BS
Wow, great rebuttal :crazy:
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You can't even spell the entire name.
Holy stupidity, everybody!
People say ad hom for short. Get with the times grandpa.
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People say ad hom for short. Get with the times grandpa.
People? You don't know people. You just congregate under your bridge with the other trolls.
:stopjack: :stopjack: :stopjack:
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People? You don't know people. You just congregate under your bridge with the other trolls.
:stopjack: :stopjack: :stopjack:
^^^
Troll pretending he isn't a troll.