2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: 808Trap on May 15, 2019, 07:08:22 AM
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Just got back from a trap shoot in Livermore, Ca. Upon checking in at the counter, 2 of us were asked for the keys to open the hard case that we had already checked in. We asked for a TSA supervisor saying that we would not give up the keys and they would have to bring the cases out to us so we could be there when they opened it. What we got was a HA supervisor that asked for the key and he would be there when they opened the cases. We tried to explain to him about being there to sure nothing happened to the guns. The HA supervisor said that's the way they do it here. We tried to tell him that per the TSA reg, we should not give up the keys because we would not see the contents til we get home which might be to late. Could not board if keys were not given to him so we finally gave in. Just a heads up to all travelling that HA might be doing this starting at Oakland airport. Might travel to different airport and airline.
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I would contact corporate and ask them if this is a new policy.
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absolute horseshit. :grrr:
In addition to the 2A card, I'd throw down gender, race, correct use of pronouns etc.
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The TSA rules say they can take the keys from you to open the case:
... Only the passenger should retain the key or combination to the lock unless TSA personnel request the key ...
https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunition
(https://i.imgur.com/WTpIPOg.png)
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The TSA rules say they can take the keys from you to open the case:
You just beat me to this. I don't remember this exception. So in the case of OP, can TSA personnel request the key be obtained by airline personnel? Control of the key is getting pretty loose with multiple parties...
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TSA did not request for the keys. Hawn Air check in supervisor asked for the key and we even requested for the TSA supervisor to verify this. I did not see the modified paragraph mentioning that they can request for the keys and think this section was added in. In all my prior travelling, you did not turn your keys for them to open the cases unless you are there also, especially if they do it in the back room without you. Now it is open for them to do it at all terminals without you and who knows what is missing from the case only discovered after you reach home.
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More addition to the above policy by the TSA. Many airport TSA agents have asked for my keys to run more compliance testing. No problems there. The situation becomes more complicated when they want to do the testing without me pesent. I always asked the TSA agent or supervisor to bring the case back to me and then I give the keys to the agent for him to open it. Lots of the inspection testing is done in the back room and not where to check in. Even in HNL. The problem is what happens behind the closed door. They do not want you back there and you probably need special clearance to see that the case is locked with all contents intact.
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More addition to the above policy by the TSA. Many airport TSA agents have asked for my keys to run more compliance testing. No problems there. The situation becomes more complicated when they want to do the testing without me pesent. I always asked the TSA agent or supervisor to bring the case back to me and then I give the keys to the agent for him to open it. Lots of the inspection testing is done in the back room and not where to check in. Even in HNL. The problem is what happens behind the closed door. They do not want you back there and you probably need special clearance to see that the case is locked with all contents intact.
I agree.
I thought there was a thread about this recently. Something like recommend allowing more time in case of additional TSA inspection and that inspection may take more time because of access and/or where TSA may conduct the screening.
I've had TSA perform inspection testing, swabbing, etc, but always in my presence. I was always told to hangout in the ticketing area just in case TSA needed access once my bag "went below", but I had never been asked for access in those instances.
On a side note, how'd the trap shoot go?
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I've not experienced this yet. If/when I do, I'll have the person I give my keys to -- TSA or airline employee -- SIGN a note with their name, employee ID or badge #, and position. That way, if there are any discrepancies at my destination, I can file a claim with that info. It avoids TSA and airline employees pointing the finger of blame at each other:
"TSA took the keys from the passenger."
"No, TSA received the keys from the airline rep."
My note would show who took control of my keys, making them and their employers responsible for safeguarding my property.
They can't force us to comply with policies and then deny responsibility for losses caused by their policies.
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I've had my can of eggplant from Trader Joes swabbed and come back positive for something. Told I either had to open it there, or toss it. The metal can is not resealable.
Maybe the stock boy at TJ's was into some heavy shit.
Luckily, never had a problem with firearms, well besides TSA taking 1 JHP from my box of 50. The problem is that you were in Oakland (Commifornia). I know a guy almost arrested for having his VP9 at the airport on a layover to Alaska. TSA told him he could have him arrested if he wanted to because the VP9 is not on the list of approved handguns. He caught a direct flight back and paid more.
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I would still take the time to file a clarification with Hawaiian regarding the actions of the Hawaiian Agent.
Hawaiian Airlines Consumer Affairs Office
https://www.hawaiianairlines.com/cao
Unfortunately each station seems to make up their own interpretation of the rules, regulations, and policies. I've never had any issues checking in a firearm in HNL and amazingly didn't when I was transiting through JFK coming home. But i've had lots of issues at the neighbor island stations with different agents each time.
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The problem is that you were in Oakland (Commifornia). I know a guy almost arrested for having his VP9 at the airport on a layover to Alaska. TSA told him he could have him arrested if he wanted to because the VP9 is not on the list of approved handguns. He caught a direct flight back and paid more.
Forgive me if I"m mistaken but isn't the list only relevant for guns that people are planning on selling?
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Forgive me if I"m mistaken but isn't the list only relevant for guns that people are planning on selling?
Looks like you're correct.
As of January 1, 2001, no handgun may be manufactured within California, imported into California
for sale,
lent,
given,
kept for sale, or
offered/exposed for sale
unless that handgun model has passed firing, safety, and drop tests and is certified for sale in California
by the Department of Justice.
Private party transfers, curio/relic handguns, certain single-action revolvers, and pawn/consignment returns are exempt from this requirement.
https://www.oag.ca.gov/firearms/certguns?make=All
Since there are exceptions, particularly for private party transfers, it's obviously not illegal to possess handguns not on the roster.
Sounds like the TSA agent didn't know the law (high probability) or was intentionally fucking with the traveler for some reason.
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The TSA policy is for all firearms. Keys should be given only to TSA agents for rescreening. As noted above, may be a good idea to note down all particulars including names, dates, etc. Info will be helpful if contents are damaged or mia.
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Good to know about Kommiefornia. IIRC an NFL player was arrested in NY airport for something similar because the gun wasn't registered in NY. He had a long layover going back to GA and had his suitcase with his gun in it that he was checking. He ended up beating the charge, but it cost him $$$. And he sat in jail for a few days.
I googled "NFL player arrested with gun at airport" and hot damn, so many hits. I guess it's common.
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Commiefornia, New Jersey, New York and the other communist states forget and trample on FOPA. So if they seize your firearm, they are breaking the law, and they know it. NY has a long history of arresting people in the airport when they collect their firearms at baggage because they are "outside" of the controlled zone.
From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act
"Safe passage" provision
One of the law's provisions (codified in section 926A of title 18 of the U.S. Code) was that persons traveling from one place to another have a defense for any state firearms offense in a state that has strict gun control laws if the traveler is just passing through (short stops for food and gasoline), provided that the individual is not otherwise prohibited from possession of a firearm, the firearms and ammunition are not readily accessible, that the firearms are unloaded and, in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver's compartment, the firearms are located in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.[12][13]
This section has also been interpreted to protect air travel.[14][15]
https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/USCODE-2011-title18/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap44-sec926A/context
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You will probably win in court, but it will cost you. NY doesn't care.
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its not a new regulation, just DA TSA/ticket agents making up their own rules. Even different airlines has their own policies. idiots making up their own crap happens all the time.
There's actually a lot of firearm theft from checked luggage. Guess who? That's why many people separate their bolts or slides or whatever from the firearm and ship them separately. Of course it doubles your chances of getting screwed if one of your bags go missing. Pick your poison.
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When I did travel with a personal firearm, I put in a GPS puck that would transmit via GSM it's location. Problem is with reception in a case. It was awhile ago before the advent of dual GPS & GLONASS systems we have now.
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From my experience the only reason they would ask you for the key is something in the case either through the x-ray or swab triggered something. So because your a Hawaiian airlines passenger TSA is going to contact the carrier of the bag to get the key. If you Deny access to the key then the carrier has to deal with you and be responsible for the bag not TSA. Because if you choose not to give the key you will not fly without your bag. Usually when declaring a firearm an agent will take you to the oversize tsa checkpoint where you will open the case they will swab that should be that. Locks are locked declaration is in that its unloaded. I never use TSA locks because they would have access to it without you being there.
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From my experience the only reason they would ask you for the key is something in the case either through the x-ray or swab triggered something. So because your a Hawaiian airlines passenger TSA is going to contact the carrier of the bag to get the key. If you Deny access to the key then the carrier has to deal with you and be responsible for the bag not TSA. Because if you choose not to give the key you will not fly without your bag. Usually when declaring a firearm an agent will take you to the oversize tsa checkpoint where you will open the case they will swab that should be that. Locks are locked declaration is in that its unloaded. I never use TSA locks because they would have access to it without you being there.
understand but in this case when the gun owner was asked for the keys and stated that he wanted to be present when it was opened. He was told he could not. Maybe I’m missing something....
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I will send an email, and we should all to HA telling them that their current way of doing things are not safe. It opens them up to liability because we are not the only ones in control of the keys.
There are others on the mainland who are taken to a private room and open the case themselves in the presents of TSA/LE. Then a LE handles the firearm. Never TSA or airline employee handle the gun.
I always separate my slide from frame and run a cable thru the frame when I travel with my pistol.
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understand but in this case when the gun owner was asked for the keys and stated that he wanted to be present when it was opened. He was told he could not. Maybe I’m missing something....
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Idk about other stations, I'm assuming they are similar. But once you bag is tagged and put on the belt to be sorted to the different airline carrier. Im not sure if some or all bags get sent to a secondary screening. This is probably where the red flag was drawn and they wanted to inspect inside the case. Due to clearance I'm pretty sure no one would be allowed in there. Idk if they could bring the bag out open it, take it back in to be screened and brought back out again. I also wonder if you were in the sterile area already and went through TSA check point already.
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Idk if they could bring the bag out open it, take it back in to be screened and brought back out again. I also wonder if you were in the sterile area already and went through TSA check point already.
It is quite common for them to bring the bag back out to the non secure area and have the owner unlock for TSA to unlock in their presence. w/r/t through checkpoints-Some stations ask folks to wait 10 min (In LAS, near an American Flag) in the event TSA wants to have you open your bag for them. Some folks have been paged once they're through security and have to go back out for the process. This was a good way for there to be SOME accountability. Now it seems TSA is reaching for their own convenience, and can do whatever they want with your firearm out of your sight.
This despite the conflict with CFR1540.111c (https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=d8aef7cf01790e6606b5e3bdecc6b9f1&rgn=div8&view=text&node=49:9.1.3.5.9.2.10.6&idno=49) which states '(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.'.
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Don't think I will be travelling with firearms.
Too many moving parts, too much exposure.
Aloha
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My last trip to Lanai in April i flew HAwaiian Airlines. Same as usual from HNL to LNY. They check my Pelican case, throw in the firearms card, hang out for 10-15 min and if nobody comes out then Im golden.
Now When I flewback from Lanai on HA, the HA agent tells me something new Ive never heard of. She asked if I had ammo and I said yes. I told her its in the cooler, seperate from my gun case which is okay. So I asked her about the rules if I can I put my ammo in the same case as my rifle? She said yes, but it has to have the foam cut out to place the ammo box in its own spot.
Im ok with following rules for everyones safety, but I hate how its different every trip. Nobody knows the rules or just make up their own.
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My last trip to Lanai in April i flew HAwaiian Airlines. Same as usual from HNL to LNY. They check my Pelican case, throw in the firearms card, hang out for 10-15 min and if nobody comes out then Im golden.
Now When I flewback from Lanai on HA, the HA agent tells me something new Ive never heard of. She asked if I had ammo and I said yes. I told her its in the cooler, seperate from my gun case which is okay. So I asked her about the rules if I can I put my ammo in the same case as my rifle? She said yes, but it has to have the foam cut out to place the ammo box in its own spot.
Im ok with following rules for everyones safety, but I hate how its different every trip. Nobody knows the rules or just make up their own.
Like I said in this thread earlier....
On a side note, I think how they want ammo in "original boxes" is absolutely retarded.