2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: zippz on June 02, 2019, 08:20:11 AM
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Looking for others interested in attending classes with me at Front Sight near Las Vegas Nevada or Sig Sauer Academy in New Hampshire later this year. I have a bunch of Front Sight memberships which makes those courses very cheap. These are the courses I'm interested in, looking to take about 3 classes. I'll also consider other schools.
Front Sight https://www.frontsight.com/Courses.asp
4 day defensive handgun or 2 day skill builder
2 day advanced tactical handgun (prereqs)
1 day tactical awareness (prereqs)
4 day rifle marksmanship
1 day precision rifle fundamentals (prereqs)
4 day precision rifle (prereqs)
4 day Uzi submachinegun
4 day select fire m16
2 day long gun tactics (prereqs)
Sig Sauer Academy https://www.sigsaueracademy.com/courses
Shoot House Instructor (prereqs)
Active Shooter Response Instructor (prereqs)
PRS101 Precision Scoped Rifle
Concealed carry for instructors (prereqs)
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I wonder if it would be cheaper to try and get these guys to come out to Hawaii to give a class?
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I wonder if it would be cheaper to try and get these guys to come out to Hawaii to give a class?
FS only does classes at their range. Sig does their pistol instructor class here for HPD once in a while. There are two challenges. Biggest one is finding a range to host it as it's a commercial activity. Xring is a possibility though it would be costly. Or small private ranges here or the neighbor islands. Then getting the minimum commitments is a headache.
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I wonder if it would be cheaper to try and get these guys to come out to Hawaii to give a class?
Cheaper how?
You'll still need pay the regular class fees and individual student ammo costs.
Now you want to add to the costs:
Travel
Per Diem
Lodging
Local transportation
Instructors having to register their handguns at HPD (time wasted during business/class hours)
FrontSight needs to still pay for their overhead, salaries, and all other operating expenses at their facilities. There's no way they can afford to do off-site classes for less.
They also need facilities for classroom and shoot/no-shoot live fire training. Those facilities, if available, need to be rented -- unless you have such spaces to donate to the cause. Part of the overhead includes their insurance. I doubt their policies cover locations they don't have control over.
The cheapest membership is $250 ($200 for the membership + $50 background check).
Included in that membership are FREE training classes. You need to add travel and lodging expenses.
Not rocket science. If you can't afford the travel costs and a reasonable cost for 5 days of training and CCW permit testing/applications, which includes notary and fingerprinting, then I doubt you'll be forking out $200 to take the class locally.
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Think EEF is referring to the cost of 2 or 3 instructors coming here versus 20 of us flying to the mainland.
Normally a 4 day Sig trip costs me about $1600 for airfare, hotel, car and meals. FS about $950. It's cheaper and more fun if a group goes. Also I've found you have a better chance of passing when you can help each other.
For 20 students taking a course here with 3 instructors flying down, the the travel cost might come out to $300+ range fees per student.
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It can be much cheaper IF you can arrange for suitable range and get their “break even” number to commit. Both are huge ifs for Hawaii. I tried to get a few trainers to come out. All willing and sort of like a Pro Bowl for them as their families wanted to come out. Sadly, could never get past the range logistics. Had a friend on Kauai that built his own range, but never worked out timing wise.
As for hosting the trainers, it’s quite common. A few of my buddies host them all the time on the mainland. Not FS and stuff like shoot houses are of course special, but it can be done. I’ve attended a couple. While I of course had to pay to travel, about 18 or so of their buddies didn’t. :(
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Think EEF is referring to the cost of 2 or 3 instructors coming here versus 20 of us flying to the mainland.
Normally a 4 day Sig trip costs me about $1600 for airfare, hotel, car and meals. FS about $950. It's cheaper and more fun if a group goes. Also I've found you have a better chance of passing when you can help each other.
For 20 students taking a course here with 3 instructors flying down, the the travel cost might come out to $300+ range fees per student.
Exactly what I was thinking, thank you.
Is it not possible to host such a course at Kokohead?
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Exactly what I was thinking, thank you.
Is it not possible to host such a course at Kokohead?
You should go to the course and experience it first. There are plenty of videos on the YT FS channel, too.
A good portion of the time is classroom. No classroom facilities at Koko Head. Even most HI state-required handgun courses meet in classes then drive to the range.
"Shoot houses" don't exist at Koko Head.
There would have to be approvals for the FS targets used: human silhouettes and caricatures.
FS would have to pay to ship all their supplies as well, just as any mainland training group does.
Need someone to coordinate every little detail of the course with the range supervisors to ensure there are no surprises.
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I would rather go to Vegas and enjoy a week there instead of attending their class here. I pay nothing to attend their classes with my membership and I already have a timeshare in Vegas to stay at.
I took a class at the end of Feb and was planning to go again in Oct, but I had some unexpected car and truck repairs and my refrigerator had to be replaced. so no mo money for a Vegas trip this year.
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Dont forget they all need 10rd mags, register all guns coming in +rapback.
U less they borrow all guns needed, which might be way easier.
Only reason for them to come here is free vacay in hawaii.
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Dont forget they all need 10rd mags, register all guns coming in +rapback.
U less they borrow all guns needed, which might be way easier.
Only reason for them to come here is free vacay in hawaii.
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They can't borrow handguns. :wacko:
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They can't borrow handguns. :wacko:
Meant use a handgun with the owner present. Probably taking the class
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I'm just jealous as I had 2 friends go to SIG over the weekend... Got to play with all their fancy toys and such.
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I'm just jealous as I had 2 friends go to SIG over the weekend... Got to play with all their fancy toys and such.
NH and Maine are good.places to stay. The scenery, history, and food. Lots of lobster there.
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zippz, would you ever consider upgrading to one of those private training memberships offered at Front Sight?
i was told that you can fit an entire 4-day FS course into less than 2 days worth of private training.
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zippz, would you ever consider upgrading to one of those private training memberships offered at Front Sight?
i was told that you can fit an entire 4-day FS course into less than 2 days worth of private training.
I got some of those but never used it. Forgot about them actually. Could use them to practice shoot on the move or precision rifle later.
Haldf of the 4 day class is lectures, so you skip that in the advanced classes, skill builders, and private training.
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I got some of those but never used it. Forgot about them actually. Could use them to practice shoot on the move or precision rifle later.
Haldf of the 4 day class is lectures, so you skip that in the advanced classes, skill builders, and private training.
Yup. I just went to FS last month for the first time for a 4 day defensive handgun course. I barely missed the DG cutoff, but I definitely could have made it if I was fresh for the test. I basically just want to go so I can take the test without having to sit through the rest of the class
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Yup. I just went to FS last month for the first time for a 4 day defensive handgun course. I barely missed the DG cutoff, but I definitely could have made it if I was fresh for the test. I basically just want to go so I can take the test without having to sit through the rest of the class
because if you cannot beat the test, the next best alternative is to try and game it...
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because if you cannot beat the test, the next best alternative is to try and game it...
After 4 days of shooting, I'd be smoked. I've only done a 2 day handgun followed by a 2 day carbine. Holy crap was I gassed. And that was when I was in better shape. :(
There wasn't a formal test at the end, but the instructor gave out some pretty cool gear for stuff like best shooter, most improved, etc. Might tempt me to game it next time. ;D
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Just an observation, if you want to take the skills test but don't want to waste time at the lectures then I would recommend the 2 day HG skill builder. It has most of the shooting in the 4 day but none of the lectures. You basically do a few hours of fundamental/safety review then you start shooting different parts of the skills test, run through short versions of the test, and the whole test, etc... it is a class designed to get those on the edge, over the line. No man-on-man competition, no lectures, just practice the skills test. They use the turning targets which can be good or bad depending on the person. It can add more pressure because the targets "disappear" and are noisy. It gives you a fraction of a second more time because you can draw on the sound of the actuators just before they start to turn (not a rule but my observation) and keep shooting until the target is 90 degrees (angled shots are accepted as long as the hole crosses the line).
the class does more total shooting than the 2 day but less than the 4 day. I like it. :love:
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because if you cannot beat the test, the next best alternative is to try and game it...
in the second half of day 2 and for all of day 3, we were running both relays. it resulted in a lot of shooting-induced overexertion.
Just an observation, if you want to take the skills test but don't want to waste time at the lectures then I would recommend the 2 day HG skill builder. It has most of the shooting in the 4 day but none of the lectures. You basically do a few hours of fundamental/safety review then you start shooting different parts of the skills test, run through short versions of the test, and the whole test, etc... it is a class designed to get those on the edge, over the line. No man-on-man competition, no lectures, just practice the skills test. They use the turning targets which can be good or bad depending on the person. It can add more pressure because the targets "disappear" and are noisy. It gives you a fraction of a second more time because you can draw on the sound of the actuators just before they start to turn (not a rule but my observation) and keep shooting until the target is 90 degrees (angled shots are accepted as long as the hole crosses the line).
the class does more total shooting than the 2 day but less than the 4 day. I like it. :love:
thanks for the tip. i was considering getting the private training membership so that i could DG the handgun test and then immediately try to squeeze the 4-day practical rifle class into a 2-day period. the practical rifle test doesn't seem that difficult.
I'll post pics of the skills test requirements below for your reference.
(https://i.imgur.com/JMpgJ6x.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/95wKf9t.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3phVAhr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2nzMIxj.jpg)
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I'd agree with that. The practical rifle was easier to pass but physically more tiring due to the weight of the rifle (yes, I am out of shape) and going friggen prone was hard on my knees even with pads (I have bad knees already due to high school sports). I think the dreaded type 3 malfunction is not timed, just have to do it right. I think going prone is optional in the test but it sure does make that 100yd shot easier to guarantee. You have to get down fast which is why my knees were busted up, probably bad technique too. :rofl:
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I'd agree with that. The practical rifle was easier to pass but physically more tiring due to the weight of the rifle (yes, I am out of shape) and going friggen prone was hard on my knees even with pads (I have bad knees already due to high school sports). I think the dreaded type 3 malfunction is not timed, just have to do it right. I think going prone is optional in the test but it sure does make that 100yd shot easier to guarantee. You have to get down fast which is why my knees were busted up, probably bad technique too. :rofl:
For the practical rifle test, do you use the same target paper as the handgun test? in other words, are all of the shots (except for the head shots) scored based on the normal-sized thoracic cavity target paper?
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For the practical rifle test, do you use the same target paper as the handgun test? in other words, are all of the shots (except for the head shots) scored based on the normal-sized thoracic cavity target paper?
Targets are the same for all courses. I brought home a few targets that I can copy. I DGd on handgun, rifle, and shotgun so I can train whomever needs help to pass it.
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For the practical rifle test, do you use the same target paper as the handgun test? in other words, are all of the shots (except for the head shots) scored based on the normal-sized thoracic cavity target paper?
I am 99.5% sure it was the same target.
Another interesting observation. The practical rifle class had a mix of optics. I would say mostly red dot (some with magnifier), some low power scope, few iron sights. I used a 1-4x and kept it at 1x up to 50 yd and upped it to 2x at 100yd. Technically, they said whatever setting you used for the close shots should be the starting setting for every shot and any change to higher mag has to come after the beep. I subtly changed to 2x as I was walking back to the 100yd so I gamed it a little... :wave: Guys with red dot magnifiers were told to flip the magnifier after the beep.
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No modern firearms training program should be utilizing the terms Controlled or Hammer Pairs. That terminology should have been laid to rest well over a decade ago for good reason. I still cringe at the name Front Sight. I know the Hawaii connection to that place and perhaps the logistics, but I know you are serious about your training, so go back to Sig, or there are at least 20 other places minimum I could suggest over FS.
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No modern firearms training program should be utilizing the terms Controlled or Hammer Pairs. That terminology should have been laid to rest well over a decade ago for good reason. I still cringe at the name Front Sight. I know the Hawaii connection to that place and perhaps the logistics, but I know you are serious about your training, so go back to Sig, or there are at least 20 other places minimum I could suggest over FS.
Please explain. Just want to be sure that how you think those terms are being used at that school is how they are actually used at that school. I mean, I know Front Sight is the Mcdonald's or Walmart of shooting schools but sometimes I like to eat at Mcdonalds and I love Walmart. :love:
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Targets are the same for all courses. I brought home a few targets that I can copy. I DGd on handgun, rifle, and shotgun so I can train whomever needs help to pass it.
I scanned the thoracic cavity portion and turned it into a PDF. I’ll post it later so people can print as many copies as they want for practicing. The head is just a box so I figured that it isn’t as critical to get the target into the perfect shape.
No modern firearms training program should be utilizing the terms Controlled or Hammer Pairs. That terminology should have been laid to rest well over a decade ago for good reason. I still cringe at the name Front Sight. I know the Hawaii connection to that place and perhaps the logistics, but I know you are serious about your training, so go back to Sig, or there are at least 20 other places minimum I could suggest over FS.
I think that the training at FS for the introductory courses is extremely dated. In that respect, I agree with you and I went into it knowing full well that I would probably not learn much. I ended up learning a lot, but it wasn’t a result of their instruction. It was nice to be able to get a ton of reps in, which we can’t get on island as civilians. I also got a chance to practice at various distances that I wouldn’t be able to practice at normally; the 25 yard bullseye range at Koko Head is pretty limiting and indoor ranges can get expensive quickly.
FS also has rifle ranges that go out to almost 1,000 yards so I would be really looking forward to trying that out.
I’m not endorsing FS in any way, but it’s basically free training (excluding the cost of ammo). Also, it gives me another reason to visit my dad in Phoenix, which isn’t very far from Vegas/Pahrump. I’d probably pay a decent amount of money to someone who could provide quality private training locally, but I don’t know anyone that could host at a suitable venue.
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here's a PDF of the Thoracic Cavity in case any of you wanted to hang something up on your wall or print it and take it to the range for life fire practice.
To print the full TC on one piece of paper, make sure that you are using an 11x17" tabloid size paper.
TC - for printing on Tabloid (11x17”) paper
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18QHwjyygKlvQhcqvKRFZWDKjHeG57LHY/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/18QHwjyygKlvQhcqvKRFZWDKjHeG57LHY/view?usp=sharing)
For those of you that are printing on normal 8.5x11" paper, here is the two-piece TC for printing on the standard 8.5x11" paper.
make sure that you set your printer to 100% scale. there will be some overlap for the TC, but that was intentional due to the print margins of a lot of printers. use the numbers at the top and bottom to line up the left and right sides.
TC - Left Side
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nLoVYjZyuY3eABX2oBsi9W53_XbiKlxn/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nLoVYjZyuY3eABX2oBsi9W53_XbiKlxn/view?usp=sharing)
TC - Right Side
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qCUxopTzTgbynBrvsoeThOos-7q_-wWl/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qCUxopTzTgbynBrvsoeThOos-7q_-wWl/view?usp=sharing)
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Most of us who have FS memberships probably also have a lot of FS credits which can't be used to buy a lot of the good stuff in the Pro Shop. I use mine to pay for the yearly bg check, to shoot the machine gun and the targets. I got a bunch of the regular and hostage targets when I was there at the end of Feb. I also bought some gray masking tape from Amazon to tape the bullet holes. I hate the standard color masking tape they use there to tape over the gray target.
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No modern firearms training program should be utilizing the terms Controlled or Hammer Pairs. That terminology should have been laid to rest well over a decade ago for good reason. I still cringe at the name Front Sight. I know the Hawaii connection to that place and perhaps the logistics, but I know you are serious about your training, so go back to Sig, or there are at least 20 other places minimum I could suggest over FS.
Front Sight is far from the best for training cirriculum, but I believe it's the best overall place for most people. Most premium shooting schools are for the top 5% of shooters. Front Sight caters to the other 95%. The curriculum leaves a lot of room for improvement, but it's the 80% answer for most people who would otherwise not take other courses. Travel and course costs are about half of other schools. There's a lot to do nearby. Usually family and friends to visit in Nevada. And Front Sight is family friendly, even for kids. It's extremely difficult to pitch other schools to the average shooter in Hawaii. When tell someone Front Sight is cheap and near Las Vegas, it sells itself. They probably train 3,00 students a week so it's a good service for the 2nd Amendment.
What I get out of it is cheap training while I take my annual trip to Las Vegas, see other teaching techniques, and learn demographics and what it takes to get the average person to attend training.
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Most premium shooting schools are for the top 5% of shooters.
Just curious, who or what groups are you thinking about for "premium shooting schools"?
I've been to many that definitely helped the "bottom" 95%. Everyone's gotta start somewhere and many instructors/schools realize this as well as are very much geared to helping them improve. I've seen it first hand.
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Just curious, who or what groups are you thinking about for "premium shooting schools"?
I've been to many that definitely helped the "bottom" 95%. Everyone's gotta start somewhere and many instructors/schools realize this as well as are very much geared to helping them improve. I've seen it first hand.
The volume shows it.
Sig, Gunsite, Thunderranch and others may train a hundred or two hundred in a week? If they could support larger classes they probably would have by now.
Years ago Front Sight at peak times was training over 2,000 students per week, then doubled their range capacity. Probably training close to 3,000 now. That's the 95% market. I see whole families attending classes. People that pick up a gun for the first time. Law enforcement and military. If you wanted to create a firearms training facility that could train thousands of students at a time, it would look like FS.
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The volume shows it.
Sig, Gunsite, Thunderranch and others may train a hundred or two hundred in a week? If they could support larger classes they probably would have by now.
Years ago Front Sight at peak times was training over 2,000 students per week, then doubled their range capacity. Probably training close to 3,000 now. That's the 95% market. I see whole families attending classes. People that pick up a gun for the first time. Law enforcement and military. If you wanted to create a firearms training facility that could train thousands of students at a time, it would look like FS.
FS is selling more than just firearm training. They offer assistance for CCW applications in many states (I have NV, FL and UT thanks to their classes, fingerprinting, notary and application assistance). They offer vacations, with space for RVs and future facilities for lodging, eating and shopping.
As stated, locality is a big draw. Pahrump has many hotel/casino/restaurant choices, and Vegas is only an hour away. That location also has tolerable weather most of the year. They also offer youth achievement programs for children with wall climbing and similar activities.
In addition, they will explore ropes activities, Martial Arts, and firearms. All activities are age-appropriate and extremely safe.
Your children will be challenged "by choice". In other words, they will never be forced to participate in an activity that makes them
uncomfortable.
If you don't like to see dirt and sand being moved around, fast forward to 5:30 time mark:
https://youtu.be/MOcMWbt_KUw
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If you don't like to see dirt and sand being moved around, fast forward to 5:30 time mark:
I thought they'd never build the pavilion so I'm pleasantly surprised they're actually doing it.
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I am waiting for the day I can use my 10 hotel certificates.