2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ultra-m-a-n on November 15, 2019, 12:38:38 PM
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Hello,
I just registered my AR lower without a hitch, I currently do not have the parts for a complete rifle. I was told that I have to come back when the rifle is complete for them to update, for the barrel length and caliber. Is this correct?
Since the firearm is technically the lower receiver, havent I done my due diligence in getting it registered, and bringing it complete be redundant and unnecessary?
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There is nothing in HI law that states you have to return once completed.
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HPD "requests" that you "voluntarily" return to update the registration once you complete the firearm.
If it was registered as a long gun receiver, there are certain legal limits on barrel length and overall length. Part of the physical inspection's purpose during registration is to look for legal compliance. Of course, registering only the receiver puts a wrinkle in their process.
Unless you just want to have the registration paperwork match the finished rifle, there's no valid reason to waste your time going back again.
BTW, it's unconstitutional to require prohibited persons to register their illegally-owned firearms. If felons and domestic abusers can't be forced to follow gun laws, the law-abiding shouldn't volunteer to do anything related to their gun information unless it benefits the owner. Traveling back to HPD with a firearm might mean 2 extra trips home from work to get the gun and return it, and for no other reason than helping the government keep better records on gun owners.
Never volunteer personal information to law enforcement. It can only be used against you.
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Thank you, that was my inclination. I thought that I had already fulfilled my portion of compliance to the law.
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You’re in full compliance.
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No one on this site does anything illegal.
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Thank you, that was my inclination. I thought that I had already fulfilled my portion of compliance to the law.
You did good! :thumbsup:
Looking forward to seeing the finished project.
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Wish I remembered this issue when I started my registration lawsuit. There's still a chance to get rid of this requirement if there is no need to bring your firearm to the station for registration.
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Current Federal law defines the "firearm" as the receiver (Stripped lower, complete lower, glock frame etc.) When the 4473 is filled out at the gun shop or wherever, there's 3 options they can check; Handgun, Long Gun (rifles or shotguns) or Other Firearm (frame, receiver, etc.)
Stripped lowers and complete lowers are Other Firearm. If registered that, then theres no need to return to them once its completed. You could never ever complete the lower if you wanted. The "firearm" is registered with them. They also note it as "receiver only."
This is why you can mail/order every single gun part in the mail to your address, except for the lower receiver which has to be transferred through an FFL
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One of the drawbacks of buying just a receiver: you are prohibited from reselling the receiver out of state. If you want to sell it, you must either find a buyer in your state or complete enough of the build to make it a legal rifle or pistol before selling. The reason for that is there are different rules for transfers of rifle/shotguns out of state than for handguns. Something to keep in mind.
ATF Form 4473 Question 16 -- "Type of firearm":
(https://i.imgur.com/2avzdMC.png)
Form 4473 instructions for Question 16:
(https://i.imgur.com/NQHvz3W.png)
Once a receiver has been built as a long gun or handgun, which is determined by the barrel/action assembly, it is no longer in the "other" category. The type is determined by the barrel/action you first install.
(https://i.imgur.com/b9kH535.jpg)
Without an NFA "short barrel rifle (SBR)" stamp, you can't [legally] take a receiver you first installed with a rifle barrel and replace it with a pistol length barrel regardless of any other mods to be compliant with HI assault pistol laws. Technically, it is now a rifle receiver, and anything shorter than a 16" barrel makes it an NFA item: SBR.
In contrast, if you initially configured the receiver as a pistol with a pistol length barrel, it's legal to then replace the pistol barrel with a rifle barrel. Just be sure to remove the rifle stock or use a pistol brace when using the pistol barrel and attach the stock when using the rifle barrel.
I'm not a lawyer nor an FFL. These are just my understandings of some of what the ATF has published on the issue of firearm types.
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So..... if you intend to build the receiver as a pistol, you'll need/want to re-register it after the build. HPD will look for assault pistol characteristics, and then it will officially be registered as a pistol.
After that, you can't get into legal trouble for putting a pistol barrel on the receiver. Without the HPD "stamp of approval", you'd have to prove you installed a pistol barrel on the receiver before any rifle barrel was installed, if any ever was, and that you made the proper modifications to comply with HI laws.
If you're only using it with a rifle barrel, then I see no need to re-register.
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Is this correct?
No, even the very anti-2A Honolulu PD desk told me they would like to see the completed rifle, but it was not a requirement.
Big island PD did not even know what the lower was when I showed the lady the part.
Of course, I am too lazy and short of funds to complete anything now. Nice paperweights............
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I recently bought a BCM lower receiver online, and when I registered it, I, too, was asked to bring it back when I finish the build. I was like, "WHAAAA?!?!?! I never did though. Before that, I hadn't bought a rifle or receiver in years, or any gun for that matter. I've bought and built dozens of AR's and always registered the firearm as receiver only because I didn't want to bring in the whole gun. I would just throw it in my bag and head to the PD. I never had the PD request to bring back the finished rifle.
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One of the drawbacks of buying just a receiver: you are prohibited from reselling the receiver out of state. If you want to sell it, you must either find a buyer in your state or complete enough of the build to make it a legal rifle or pistol before selling. The reason for that is there are different rules for transfers of rifle/shotguns out of state than for handguns. Something to keep in mind.
Of course you can sell it out-of-state. It just has to go through FFL. That's how all state-to-state transactions go. That's how online sellers like Gunbroker or any other online sellers make sales on receivers everyday. I can sell any of my receivers to my brother in Las Vegas, I just have to send it through FFL. What Section 922(b)(1) is saying is that if someone comes to Hawaii, or whatever state the receiver is registered in, and is not a resident of the said state, that person cannot buy that receiver. Now, if you are talking about bringing the receiver to another state yourself and making a private sale it in that state, then that's a different story...
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Of course you can sell it out-of-state. It just has to go through FFL. That's how all state-to-state transactions go. That's how online sellers like Gunbroker or any other online sellers make sales on receivers everyday. I can sell any of my receivers to my brother in Las Vegas, I just have to send it through FFL. What Section 922(b)(1) is saying is that if someone comes to Hawaii, or whatever state the receiver is registered in, and is not a resident of the said state, that person cannot buy that receiver. Now, if you are talking about bringing the receiver to another state yourself and making a private sale it in that state, then that's a different story...
I said "prohibited from selling", but meant "restricted when selling."
ATF rules have exceptions for rifles and shotguns which do not apply to receivers. I was making the point that building the rifle makes it less limiting when selling out of state. The rules for selling receivers out of state, even if you use an FFL in your state, are more like the rules that apply to handguns. That's true even if the receiver can only be used to manufacture a rifle or shotgun.
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Current Federal law defines the "firearm" as the receiver (Stripped lower, complete lower, glock frame etc.) When the 4473 is filled out at the gun shop or wherever, there's 3 options they can check; Handgun, Long Gun (rifles or shotguns) or Other Firearm (frame, receiver, etc.)
Stripped lowers and complete lowers are Other Firearm. If registered that, then theres no need to return to them once its completed. You could never ever complete the lower if you wanted. The "firearm" is registered with them. They also note it as "receiver only."
This is why you can mail/order every single gun part in the mail to your address, except for the lower receiver which has to be transferred through an FFL
Wish they had finished this case because then even the lower wouldn't be a firearm
https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/10/12/a-california-man-sold-illegal-ar-15s-feds-agreed-to-let-him-go-free-to-avoid-hurting-gun-control-efforts/
...Under the US Code of Federal Regulations, a firearm frame or receiver is defined as: “That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.”
The lower receiver in Roh’s case does not have a bolt or breechblock and is not threaded to receive the barrel, Nicolaysen noted..."
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So..... if you intend to build the receiver as a pistol, you'll need/want to re-register it after the build. HPD will look for assault pistol characteristics, and then it will officially be registered as a pistol.
Unless something has changed in the last couple years, you cannot build an AR pistol from a lower receiver that you purchased using your long gun permit. The lower receiver would have to have been sold designated as a pistol receiver at purchase from the shop. And you would have had gone through the same process as if buying a handgun.
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Unless something has changed in the last couple years, you cannot build an AR pistol from a lower receiver that you purchased using your long gun permit. The lower receiver would have to have been sold designated as a pistol receiver at purchase from the shop. And you would have had gone through the same process as if buying a handgun.
I believe that did change. I haven't done an AR pistol build here, but the ATF added "Other" to types recently. Before the change, receivers were sold as long gun or handgun firearm types. Now they are sold as "Other" if the FFL does it correctly.
Posted: 10/10/2008 3:47:28 PM EST
As of Nov. 15th the new 4473 will be implemented. The new form now distinguishes between 'Long Gun' vs 'Handgun' vs 'Both' vs 'Other'.
It didn't use to have the 'Other" option. They want bare receivers to be marked under the 'Other' distinction.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/_ARCHIVED_THREAD____ATF_s_new_Form_4473___this_is_big/5-769277/&page=3
The new type is determined when you add the barrel, according to the ATF's rules (see the ATF letter I posted). As long as the "Other" type receiver has never been barreled as a rifle, it can legally be built as a pistol. Just be sure to check that HPD didn't mess up and put "Rifle" on their paperwork at registration time.
As or the out-of-state comment I made, I was looking at this at the time:
Instruction for Question 16 (Formerly Question 18): Clarifies that frames and receivers cannot be transferred to anyone who is not a resident of the State where the transfer is to take place.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/atf-form-4473-firearms-transaction-record-revisions
It doesn't say whether "anyone" is another licensee or not. Ambiguous at best. Have to "assume" that applies to transfers to a non-licensee who is not a resident of the State. Basically brings receivers into line with handgun rules regarding age and residency of the unlicensed transferee.
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Unless something has changed in the last couple years, you cannot build an AR pistol from a lower receiver that you purchased using your long gun permit. The lower receiver would have to have been sold designated as a pistol receiver at purchase from the shop. And you would have had gone through the same process as if buying a handgun.
I believe that did change. I haven't done an AR pistol build here, but the ATF added "Other" to types recently. Before the change, receivers were sold as long gun or handgun firearm types. Now they are sold as "Other" if the FFL does it correctly.
What Coconut-kid is saying is if you purchased the receiver with a long gun permit then you will be registering it as a long gun receiver. So in the State of Hawaii it's a long gun, even if ATF has it as "Other".
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What Coconut-kid is saying is if you purchased the receiver with a long gun permit then you will be registering it as a long gun receiver. So in the State of Hawaii it's a long gun, even if ATF has it as "Other".
I have several AR-15 receivers, some built and some still stripped. I used my long gun permit for the purchases, and not a single one was registered as a "rifle". All were registered as "Receiver Only".
I don't think they can require you to get a pistol permit unless you tell them you intend to build a pistol when registering.
Once you decide to build a pistol, whether it was the intent all along or you decided a year later after it sat in your safe still stripped, THEN you should apply for a pistol permit before installing the barrel. You can build the lower and upper, just don't join the two until you can legally "acquire" the pistol.
A receiver isn't a rifle, shotgun or handgun. it's a "firearm." Unless the state's laws treat receivers as "potential pistols," then a pistol permit isn't required.
Also, there are exceptions to the handgun permit requirement. I've purchased & registered a revolver with a Long Gun Permit to Acquire. No 2 week wait, either.
On a side note, I have a registration form that shows my Sig P227 .45ACP is a semi auto rifle,P227,4.50". :rofl: I'm surprised I haven't had SWAT at my door looking for my illegal 4.5" barrel SBR! :shake: :shake:
HPD makes mistakes.
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On a side note, I have a registration form that shows my Sig P227 .45ACP is a semi auto rifle,P227,4.50". :rofl: I'm surprised I haven't had SWAT at my door looking for my illegal 4.5" barrel SBR! :shake: :shake:
HPD makes mistakes.
that's why I always check the paper they print out before leaving and the tablet before signing. When I got my bolt action Ruger RPRR (22), they described it as semi-auto rifle. They corrected it.
But my other friend was registering a G17 and they labeled it a G19. He told them at the window that they need to correct it. The guy at the window told him, no worries, it's fine. He had to tell the officer, it's not fine. We're dealing with firearms. Officer still said, no need fix it. He then had to tell him again that we're dealing with firearms and all paperwork needs to be correct, so fix it. So then the officer did. Seems like he was to lazy to correct it.
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Sorry to bring this post up from the dead, but I thought my question might be fitting. I recently ordered a stripped lower for my ar build. By the time my appointment came with HPD to register, I had already built out the lower. Noticed that they put "rifle receiver" as the classification. I'm assuming this is because I had a stock installed.
My question is, I have another stripped lower coming in, and wanted to explore the option of building a pistol in the future. Legally of course, with a fixed magazine and/or no gas block. I've talked to my FFL and he told me that he registers it as simply "receiver" with no designation., but does note that he does designate semi-auto. When I go down to HPD to register, can I mention that it should be registered as a receiver only, and not a rifle receiver? Thanks :shaka: :shaka:
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Sorry to bring this post up from the dead, but I thought my question might be fitting. I recently ordered a stripped lower for my ar build. By the time my appointment came with HPD to register, I had already built out the lower. Noticed that they put "rifle receiver" as the classification. I'm assuming this is because I had a stock installed.
My question is, I have another stripped lower coming in, and wanted to explore the option of building a pistol in the future. Legally of course, with a fixed magazine and/or no gas block. I've talked to my FFL and he told me that he registers it as simply "receiver" with no designation., but does note that he does designate semi-auto. When I go down to HPD to register, can I mention that it should be registered as a receiver only, and not a rifle receiver? Thanks :shaka: :shaka:
As long as the serial number is registered with HPD, the classification is normally no big deal. Whether HPD registers as "Rifle receiver". "Pistol Receiver" or "Receiver Only" is not as important as which box the FFL checks. That's the official classification. HPD should make sure they match that, and YOU need to make sure your ATF and HPD forms don't have "rifle" if you want to build a pistol. If your ATF paperwork says "Long Gun" or "Rifle", you can't technically build it as a pistol without creating a Short Barrel Rifle (illegal in HI).
If, however, the receiver is registered as a pistol, you can legally replace the pistol upper with a rifle upper. The general advice it to not install the rifle stock to the receiver with the pistol upper attached. Remove the pistol upper, install the stock, and attach the rifle upper.
The FFL can check one or more of 3 boxes on the 4473: Handgun, Long Gun and/or Other (includes receiver). If they only check the third box, you should be able to have it registered as "Receiver only", giving you the flexibility to choose later what to build it as. if they check that box and Long Gun, too, then you're stuck with building a rifle, and the HPD forms should say "Rifle receiver".
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As long as the serial number is registered with HPD, the classification is normally no big deal. Whether HPD registers as "Rifle receiver". "Pistol Receiver" or "Receiver Only" is not as important as which box the FFL checks. That's the official classification. HPD should make sure they match that, and YOU need to make sure your ATF and HPD forms don't have "rifle" if you want to build a pistol. If your ATF paperwork says "Long Gun" or "Rifle", you can't technically build it as a pistol without creating a Short Barrel Rifle (illegal in HI).
If, however, the receiver is registered as a pistol, you can legally replace the pistol upper with a rifle upper. The general advice it to not install the rifle stock to the receiver with the pistol upper attached. Remove the pistol upper, install the stock, and attach the rifle upper.
The FFL can check one or more of 3 boxes on the 4473: Handgun, Long Gun and/or Other (includes receiver). If they only check the third box, you should be able to have it registered as "Receiver only", giving you the flexibility to choose later what to build it as. if they check that box and Long Gun, too, then you're stuck with building a rifle, and the HPD forms should say "Rifle receiver".
Got it. I think haha. FFL confirmed he will only check the third box, so regardless of what HPD puts on my registration as long as the original 4473 states “receiver only“ I should be ok right?
If is decide to proceed with the pistol build, will I need to go back to HPD to reclassify it as a pistol, and apply for a pistol permit? I was under the assumption that without the magazine being permanently affixed, it would be moot to bring back the stripped receiver to have them reclassify.
Seems like it’s a grey area once the initial registration is completed . As long as a brace is attached in lieu of a stock, and all paperwork omits the word pistol, feels like it might be ok?
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Got it. I think haha. FFL confirmed he will only check the third box, so regardless of what HPD puts on my registration as long as the original 4473 states “receiver only“ I should be ok right?
If is decide to proceed with the pistol build, will I need to go back to HPD to reclassify it as a pistol, and apply for a pistol permit? I was under the assumption that without the magazine being permanently affixed, it would be moot to bring back the stripped receiver to have them reclassify.
Seems like it’s a grey area once the initial registration is completed . As long as a brace is attached in lieu of a stock, and all paperwork omits the word pistol, feels like it might be ok?
They used to not have "receiver" as "other" on the 4473, so the FFL had to pick Handgun or Long Gun, and HPD would follow that adding "Receiver" to their form's description.
Now that the receiver can be "Other: Receiver", it makes the state registration more flexible for the buyer. Of course, the state hates allowing the gun owner to have options. That equates to less legal control.
Until HPD fixes their procedures, they are still going to want to label it Handgun or Rifle, just to make their job easier.
If you intend to make, or want the option to make, a pistol, make sure they add that to the registration if they must add something, Otherwise, leaving the receiver type undefined or as "Other:" is the best option.