2aHawaii
General Topics => Political Discussion => Topic started by: ren on February 04, 2020, 09:13:01 PM
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Let this burn in folks :grrr:
https://www.kitv.com/story/41659894/state-lawmakers-propose-stricter-gun-laws-to-keep-firearms-out-of-criminals-hands (https://www.kitv.com/story/41659894/state-lawmakers-propose-stricter-gun-laws-to-keep-firearms-out-of-criminals-hands)
"Whether you're in the right or you're wrong, you're still going to have to go through the legal system, you're going to have to go through all this," Ballard said. "It's going to be a toll on your family, it's going to be a financial toll. Is it worth it?"
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So, the Chief of police is telling us to be the victim.
dafuq
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"Whether you're in the right or you're wrong you and your loved ones are alive and not severely wounded or raped,
you're still going to have to go through the legal system,
you're going to have to go through all this," Ballard said.
"It's going to be a toll on your family, it's going to be a financial toll.
Is it worth it exercising your god-given, constitutionally-protected right to protect yourself ?"
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I have USCCA insurance and I am pretty sure 90% or more of the people here would buy some kind of insurance if they had a CCW permit.
It would be foolish not to.
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I have USCCA insurance and I am pretty sure 90% or more of the people here would buy some kind of insurance if they had a CCW permit.
It would be foolish not to.
They don't want gun buyers to have insurance. They want mandatory and overpriced insurance requirements that pile onto the mess of laws and other expenses so gun ownership becomes prohibitive for the public.
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That actually reads as a threat.
She is saying if someone manages to successfully defend themselves she will presume them to be guilty until proven innocent. Imagine if every time an HPD officer got arrested after shooting someone in the line of duty, just as a precaution. Nobody would want to be a cop.
It is the difference between citizens and subjects
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I read the article and was hoping Ballard's statement was taken out of context. I still hope she didn't mean it that way and it sort of still in shock from recent events. . .
In any case, the question of "is it worth it?" is one that I, and I am sure many here, are well aware of and one that is up to me and me alone to decide for MYSELF! Not the Gov't, not the police, not anyone. . . Yes, I have thought about and considered the consequences as well as other things that goes along with if/when the event could occur. I can't say the same for the millions of criminals who disregard laws, value of human life, etc. . .
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I read the article and was hoping Ballard's statement was taken out of context. I still hope she didn't mean it that way and it sort of still in shock from recent events. . .
In any case, the question of "is it worth it?" is one that I, and I am sure many here, are well aware of and one that is up to me and me alone to decide for MYSELF! Not the Gov't, not the police, not anyone. . . Yes, I have thought about and considered the consequences as well as other things that goes along with if/when the event could occur. I can't say the same for the millions of criminals who disregard laws, value of human life, etc. . .
The vid of the PC might be on Hawaii News Now or SSH.
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They don't want gun buyers to have insurance. They want mandatory and overpriced insurance requirements that pile onto the mess of laws and other expenses so gun ownership becomes prohibitive for the public.
^^^ This because WA did ban carry guard from their state. WA doesn't want people to have "murder insurance".
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Let this burn in folks :grrr:
https://www.kitv.com/story/41659894/state-lawmakers-propose-stricter-gun-laws-to-keep-firearms-out-of-criminals-hands (https://www.kitv.com/story/41659894/state-lawmakers-propose-stricter-gun-laws-to-keep-firearms-out-of-criminals-hands)
"Whether you're in the right or you're wrong, you're still going to have to go through the legal system, you're going to have to go through all this," Ballard said. "It's going to be a toll on your family, it's going to be a financial toll. Is it worth it?"
Yes. It is. If my family is alive, not hurt, and safe from harm, it is worth it. I am a law abiding citizen. I am a responsible gun owner. I know the current gun laws. When I absolutely must, I will. No fear. No regrets. Financial toll? Versus the safety of my family? OMG. I can't believe what was said.
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Yes. It is. If my family is alive, not hurt, and safe from harm, it is worth it. I am a law abiding citizen. I am a responsible gun owner. I know the current gun laws. When I absolutely must, I will. No fear. No regrets. Financial toll? Versus the safety of my family? OMG. I can't believe what was said.
welcome to the 2a battle in Hawaii
we will need your help once the legislature gets back in session
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How do we call her out on this comment and ask her to thoroughly explain it?
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How do we call her out on this comment and ask her to thoroughly explain it?
"They" control the media and dont care about legal gun owners.
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"They" control the media and dont care about legal gun owners.
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Agree.
Then, next question is, how do we push this to a larger national audience for greater external pressure?
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Agree.
Then, next question is, how do we push this to a larger national audience for greater external pressure?
(https://i.imgur.com/JqvEwEi.png)
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Agree.
Then, next question is, how do we push this to a larger national audience for greater external pressure?
First you have to ask is why would the rest of the nation care?
Bottom line, there is only about 1.4 million people in this whole state,
most are on just one island, in one town, Honolulu.
There are ten Cities in America about that size. All are the bluest of blue.
and control their states.
A thinking person outside of Hawaii would see it as a waste of time and money
to fight a battle that cannot be won through legislation in Hawaii.
all that is left is courts, or guns(4GW).
Besides Hawaii Democrats are party first, everybody else doesn't count.
Ever read an ILWU( longshoreman's) news letter? I used to get them.
I was a member in 2012 for a time. I've read better opinions of American
rights in Pravda.
Our best bet is getting the Supreme court and the 9th Circus cleared of the
Democrat activists.
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(https://i.imgur.com/JqvEwEi.png)
Just no show Kealoha that...
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Agree.
Then, next question is, how do we push this to a larger national audience for greater external pressure?
It's sad that the rest of the nation won't care. Which is understandable. Do we care bout CA's ammo background check? Maybe a little, but not enough to write to our senators in DC or CA senators. We are on our own. Join Hawaii Firearms Coalition (HIFICO). They are the main ones organizing everything for everyone. When bills are coming up for a hearing or online testimony, when to write to your district rep/senator, wording in bills that are very bad, etc...
Prior to them being around, at hearings for bills, maybe 8 people would show up that are pro 2a. Now it's like 30-80 and we hope even more because more gun laws won't ever stop here.
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On the contrary I think people do care about Hawaii, but it will translate into action only when we show them that we care about ourselves. The last legislative session was a great start.
One of our greatest issues getting outside help is that people see Hawaii and think Crazy Mazie and spoiled citizens on welfare. They do not understand our rich history and broad political spectrum. Also a lot of our elected officials would be considered Republicans in any other state, only here it is much easier to get elected with a D behind your name. Part of that is voter fraud in my opinion, and the all-mail ballot is easier to tamper with vs the traditional method of shutting down voting stations and purging people from the rolls, but that stuff happens more or less everywhere and yet populists are still able to win and overturn the status quo with a strong enough following.
Lastly there is the point that fighting for freedom is not something you do only because you think you can win. People continue to fight even when all hope seems lost because it is the right thing to do. No one ever knows how the defeats of today will translate into the victories of tomorrow. If the kids know their elders stood up for something, they will be more likely to take up that flag when it is their turn.
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SNIP
Lastly there is the point that fighting for freedom is not something you do only because you think you can win. People continue to fight even when all hope seems lost because it is the right thing to do. No one ever knows how the defeats of today will translate into the victories of tomorrow. If the kids know their elders stood up for something, they will be more likely to take up that flag when it is their turn.
Very true. Even if rulings/decisions don't go that way, lessons in the arguments and view points that the issue churns up can be very helpful. I found the discussion from CA mag cap and NY cases interesting. Then folks in other states/areas can take that and expand and/or modify.
That said, I can understand the picking of battles point of view when targeting fights that folks can win. But then there's the opposition who is doing the "throw everything on the wall and see what $hit sticks" approach. Even :grrr: moreso when people starting taking that BS as gospel (i.e. MDA).
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Let this burn in folks :grrr:
https://www.kitv.com/story/41659894/state-lawmakers-propose-stricter-gun-laws-to-keep-firearms-out-of-criminals-hands (https://www.kitv.com/story/41659894/state-lawmakers-propose-stricter-gun-laws-to-keep-firearms-out-of-criminals-hands)
"Whether you're in the right or you're wrong, you're still going to have to go through the legal system, you're going to have to go through all this," Ballard said. "It's going to be a toll on your family, it's going to be a financial toll. Is it worth it?"
Well she isn't wrong.
Shoot someone in self defense and you are going to go through the legal system and it probably will be stressful on your family. I don't know if she was trying to push a conclusion or just trying to get people to seriously consider what it entails to actually use a firearm against someone.
But as to the question of whether it is worth it? If I save the lives of my family then yes, it is worth it.
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Well she isn't wrong.
Shoot someone in self defense and you are going to go through the legal system and it probably will be stressful on your family. I don't know if she was trying to push a conclusion or just trying to get people to seriously consider what it entails to actually use a firearm against someone.
But as to the question of whether it is worth it? If I save the lives of my family then yes, it is worth it.
Or next time someone meets the requirement of one lawfully using deadly force, instead tell them youre gonna give them $20k (half of what a defense lawyer cost) and also let them do u up the ass. Same same according to the chief.
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Chief Ballard assumes a perfect world where bad people don't do horrible things.
The problem is, she knows full well that it's not a perfect world.
Which is why she is packing a pistol.
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Well she isn't wrong.
Shoot someone in self defense and you are going to go through the legal system and it probably will be stressful on your family. I don't know if she was trying to push a conclusion or just trying to get people to seriously consider what it entails to actually use a firearm against someone.
But as to the question of whether it is worth it? If I save the lives of my family then yes, it is worth it.
Shoot, shovel, shut up.
I don't owe Hawaiian cops anything.
Never talk to them.
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Call 911. On Oahu you might get a response as soon as 2 min if you are
lucky. Where I live on the BI, 35 min would be extremely fast, the equivalent
of a 2 min Oahu response. By response I mean a cop on site at your home.
In addition, you might not have the TIME to pick up the phone and call 911.
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Shoot, shovel, shut up.
Unfortunately, most Oahu residents don't have that luxury. Properties are way too small, neighbors so close they can
hear your toilet flush and oftentimes nosy as to what’s going on. You know, like Mrs Gravits in Bewitched. Contrast that
to areas where you and I live where a gunshot or shots, even at night are not out of the ordinary, plenty of land and
neighbors far enough away they cannot hear my backhoe running.
Move to the BI if you can, you will love it here.
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Unfortunately, most Oahu residents don't have that luxury. Properties are way too small, neighbors so close they can
hear your toilet flush and oftentimes nosy as to what’s going on. You know, like Mrs Gravits in Bewitched. Contrast that
to areas where you and I live where a gunshot or shots, even at night are not out of the ordinary, plenty of land and
neighbors far enough away they cannot hear my backhoe running.
Move to the BI if you can, you will love it here.
NO NO NO.
We have too many people as it is.
Molokai is a good place for Oahu people.
About the gun shots, I wonder who has the full Auto
I occasionally hear at night?
The only other place I heard that at
night was in the Wilmington district
of Los Angeles.
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In psychology terms, Ballard is hoping NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT will encourage law abiding citizens to behave as victims should and not protect themselves from violence. (That's THEIR JOB.)
Funny how that negative reinforcement never works on the criminals. Maybe because the judicial system here encourages crime by not imposing strict punishments (if any at all).
The outcome has to be worse than the perceived consequences of not committing the crime. Would you risk arrest and a slap on the wrist over going without food or the next experience with your favorite chemical substance? Until crimes are treated as negatively as gun ownership in Hawaii, the problem only gets worse -- and more people feel the need to arm themselves.
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Well she isn't wrong.
Shoot someone in self defense and you are going to go through the legal system and it probably will be stressful on your family. I don't know if she was trying to push a conclusion or just trying to get people to seriously consider what it entails to actually use a firearm against someone.
But as to the question of whether it is worth it? If I save the lives of my family then yes, it is worth it.
Ditto... as mentioned earlier CCW insurance is a must..... we know she’s a political sh-t hole d-ke. Wonder what would happen to her if she’s off duty and it happens to her? Wait stupid question.... :wacko: :wave:
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Ditto... as mentioned earlier CCW insurance is a must..... we know she’s a political sh-t hole d-ke. Wonder what would happen to her if she’s off duty and it happens to her? Wait stupid question.... :wacko: :wave:
If she were mugged, her training would kick in, and she'd immediately file the necessary reports.
(She supervised the Records Section of HPD before this promotion).
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If she were mugged, her training would kick in, and she'd immediately file the necessary reports.
(She supervised the Records Section of HPD before this promotion).
....
Oooh ouch that's so mean
Lol, lol, hahaha :rofl: :thumbsup: :rofl:
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Ditto... as mentioned earlier CCW insurance is a must..... we know she’s a political sh-t hole d-ke. Wonder what would happen to her if she’s off duty and it happens to her? Wait stupid question.... :wacko: :wave:
Not sure if she did it intentionally but the questions touches in on a real issue when it comes to dealing with threats. Fight or flight? Each has its consequences and risks. If one is going to prepare to fight they also have to be willing to fight. If you can pull out a gun but aren't ready to use it mentally it can end up being even worse. A little off topic but an important thing to mention when talking to someone about self defense.
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Not sure if she did it intentionally but the questions touches in on a real issue when it comes to dealing with threats. Fight or flight? Each has its consequences and risks. If one is going to prepare to fight they also have to be willing to fight. If you can pull out a gun but aren't ready to use it mentally it can end up being even worse. A little off topic but an important thing to mention when talking to someone about self defense.
You sound like Kyle Reece in Terminator Salvation. :rofl: "If you pull a gun on someone, you better be ready to use it".
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Not sure if she did it intentionally but the questions touches in on a real issue when it comes to dealing with threats. Fight or flight? Each has its consequences and risks. If one is going to prepare to fight they also have to be willing to fight. If you can pull out a gun but aren't ready to use it mentally it can end up being even worse. A little off topic but an important thing to mention when talking to someone about self defense.
That's a VERY good point. Many people think just buying a gun and having it will make them safer. I believe that training, both physical as well as mindset is very important for self defense. It's a topic that I discuss with every so often with like minded folks, but usually a smaller circle of folks with the in depth discussions. I find that many folks either just don't want to hear it or are unnerved by it.
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That's a VERY good point. Many people think just buying a gun and having it will make them safer. I believe that training, both physical as well as mindset is very important for self defense. It's a topic that I discuss with every so often with like minded folks, but usually a smaller circle of folks with the in depth discussions. I find that many folks either just don't want to hear it or are unnerved by it.
Look at BJ Baldwin as an example. He went shooting yesterday to get some range therapy. Doesn't seem like killing the bad guy bothers him and didn't delete any gun related post or his IG.
He has many vids of him drawing from CCW at a range (mostly the desert).
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That's a VERY good point. Many people think just buying a gun and having it will make them safer. I believe that training, both physical as well as mindset is very important for self defense. It's a topic that I discuss with every so often with like minded folks, but usually a smaller circle of folks with the in depth discussions. I find that many folks either just don't want to hear it or are unnerved by it.
Humans, for the most part, have a built in mechanism that makes us resistant to killing other humans, sometimes even when other people are trying to kill us. It was such a prevalent problem that the military has studied ways to get soldiers to overcome this and have gotten fairly good at it
I think drills and training help because it helps because it helps us react quickly before emotions can rear their head. So if you take a person like a domestic violence victim and hand them a gun it can be hard for them to get up the courage and actually kill their attacker who is someone they already have an attachment to.
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Humans, for the most part, have a built in mechanism that makes us resistant to killing other humans, sometimes even when other people are trying to kill us. It was such a prevalent problem that the military has studied ways to get soldiers to overcome this and have gotten fairly good at it
I think drills and training help because it helps because it helps us react quickly before emotions can rear their head. So if you take a person like a domestic violence victim and hand them a gun it can be hard for them to get up the courage and actually kill their attacker who is someone they already have an attachment to.
The military changed from circle targets to silhouettes. Maybe after ww2 i think.
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The military changed from circle targets to silhouettes. Maybe after ww2 i think.
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Killology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology
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The military changed from circle targets to silhouettes. Maybe after ww2 i think.
Our rifle qualification course of fire mid-60's was bullseye for slow fire stages, silhouettes for rapid fire. Pop-up targets in later training were all human shapes.
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Our rifle qualification course of fire mid-60's was bullseye for slow fire stages, silhouettes for rapid fire. Pop-up targets in later training were all human shapes.
IIRC, the History Channel had a segment about the bullseye and silhouettes. The Army did a study and found that in real combat, some soldiers had a harder time pulling the trigger because they were so used to circle targets. They weren't mentally ready or used to a silhouette. They changed to silhouettes and problem solved. IDK what the amount of soldiers hesitating were, but it had to be big enough to change the practice.
Guess that's why KKSC doesn't allow silhouettes...even though many city and county ranges across the nation do.
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Look at BJ Baldwin as an example. He went shooting yesterday to get some range therapy. Doesn't seem like killing the bad guy bothers him and didn't delete any gun related post or his IG.
He has many vids of him drawing from CCW at a range (mostly the desert).
When I mentioned mindset, what you mentioned wasn't the kind of mindset I was referring to. . .
Humans, for the most part, have a built in mechanism that makes us resistant to killing other humans, sometimes even when other people are trying to kill us. It was such a prevalent problem that the military has studied ways to get soldiers to overcome this and have gotten fairly good at it
I think drills and training help because it helps because it helps us react quickly before emotions can rear their head. So if you take a person like a domestic violence victim and hand them a gun it can be hard for them to get up the courage and actually kill their attacker who is someone they already have an attachment to.
It's been a while since I read On Killing. Have been meaning to go back and read it again.
Personally, I don't agree with that rationale for drills and training. If anything, I would say that my training would likely have me pause, even ever so slightly, due to various considerations from training. Something that someone who would shoot relatively indiscriminately might not. Yeah, I'm thinking more gangsta types, but similar thought process. They would definitely NOT be thinking about anything except "Imma gonna blast dat fool". Probably took that analogy to an extreme, but that's my point.
My thoughts of mindset is that one needs to consider those things prior to. I'm not saying that I know exactly how I would react, but from what I've been read and told by folks who have had to react, mindset is an important factor.
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Humans, for the most part, have a built in mechanism that makes us resistant to killing other humans, sometimes even when other people are trying to kill us. It was such a prevalent problem that the military has studied ways to get soldiers to overcome this and have gotten fairly good at it
I think drills and training help because it helps because it helps us react quickly before emotions can rear their head. So if you take a person like a domestic violence victim and hand them a gun it can be hard for them to get up the courage and actually kill their attacker who is someone they already have an attachment to.
Stop the threat, not kill the target. If it comes to that, that is my mindset. If the threat stops because the target is dead, then that's the outcome. There are many examples of self defense shootings that do not result in the death of the attacker.
In a civilian role the desired outcome is to persuade the opponent to discontinue what ever activity is threating severe bodily harm or death to one's self or loved ones. In a military role, there is a different motive and desired outcome. I don't think that type of training is suited for civilian purposes.
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The military changed from circle targets to silhouettes. Maybe after ww2 i think.
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IIRC it was more than just targets but that was part of it.
I read an interesting book on the overall subject. It was very interesting with science and some personal stories, covers a dark side of war and an interesting bright light in humanity. Kind of heartbreaking in a way too.
I recommend it if you find the subject interesting.
https://www.amazon.com/Killing-Psychological-Learning-Grossman-1996-11-01/dp/B01K2OKIFA/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=on+killing&qid=1589184674&sr=8-4
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Stop the threat, not kill the target. If it comes to that, that is my mindset. If the threat stops because the target is dead, then that's the outcome. There are many examples of self defense shootings that do not result in the death of the attacker.
In a civilian role the desired outcome is to persuade the opponent to discontinue what ever activity is threating severe bodily harm or death to one's self or loved ones. In a military role, there is a different motive and desired outcome. I don't think that type of training is suited for civilian purposes.
Hmmm. Not sure about that. On the one hand we don't need civilians treating threat situations like soldiers facing enemy combatants but on the other hand that ingrained resistance to killing has to be overcome even in just defending oneself from a burglar.
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Stop the threat, not kill the target. If it comes to that, that is my mindset. If the threat stops because the target is dead, then that's the outcome. There are many examples of self defense shootings that do not result in the death of the attacker.
In a civilian role the desired outcome is to persuade the opponent to discontinue what ever activity is threating severe bodily harm or death to one's self or loved ones. In a military role, there is a different motive and desired outcome. I don't think that type of training is suited for civilian purposes.
Mozambique O0
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Stop the threat, not kill the target. If it comes to that, that is my mindset. If the threat stops because the target is dead, then that's the outcome. There are many examples of self defense shootings that do not result in the death of the attacker.
Always easier to defend yourself in court with no witnesses. Especially in Hawaii where you will go to jail no matter how it went down. If a gun is involved, everybody spend the night in jail.
How many times have we heard "he was a good boy. He would never hurt anyone." Meanwhile his juvenile record of multiple violent felonies is hidden from the public (meaning the left leaning media) view and you're just some "Right-wing gun nut itching for a fight"?
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Always easier to defend yourself in court with no witnesses. Especially in Hawaii where you will go to jail no matter how it went down. If a gun is involved, everybody spend the night in jail.
How many times have we heard "he was a good boy. He would never hurt anyone." Meanwhile his juvenile record of multiple violent felonies is hidden from the public (meaning the left leaning media) view and you're just some "Right-wing gun nut itching for a fight"?
I always shake my head when I hear some friend or family member saying, "But he didn't have to kill him!"
They are right. The aggressor could have withdrawn and stopped the threat. There are always two sides to the equation.
If the intended victim truly feared they might be gravely wounded or killed, then they did what they HAD TO DO. "Use of deadly force" should be a last resort, but it's not open to debate among people who have no real idea of what actually transpired. Investigators and prosecutors, and possibly a jury, will decide whether he was justified -- not the criminal's mother or girlfriend.
"He didn do nuthin wrong. He just shot a Cop."