2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: oldfart on February 28, 2020, 10:33:49 AM
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No need to explain your vote. You might incriminate yourself.
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No need to explain your vote. You might incriminate yourself.
no one here does anything illegal...
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Compliance is a funny concept.
You can BE in compliance without actually doing what the lawmakers tried to compel.
"Parts kits".
https://shop.mrcolionnoir.com/products/i-will-not-comply-shirt?variant=30332387426384
(https://i.imgur.com/eMEQIWf.png)
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I will comply in hope that i will please my masters and maybe they will let me join the Democratic socialist party! So i can to tell people what to do someday!
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I will comply with all Constitutional Federal, State, and local laws.
If I see something, I will say NOTHING!
The biggest waste of money in our local budget is Police.
Really! I'd put the money into the Fire dept and pay them better.
There is no crime here, Y'all outlawed it so why make more
laws?
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No need to comply if you don't own anything. They were all lost at sea
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7c/05/44/7c0544062c5355e48f8b58c77b613cff.jpg)
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I think the bigger question is if the government is going to enforce all the new laws and enforce them equally? We all know what the answer is...
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How many 10+ round pistol magazines were turned in since '92? So what makes them think if there is a new law that the rest of the 10 + round
magazines will be turned in?
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Logic here.
SO if Ige didn't enforce laws on Mauna Kea - you could have std cap mags on the Mauna and not get arrested
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Mine are needed to protect the Mauna
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I figured I would use the smart ass defense that I do not have any 30 round 556 mags. However, I do have 10round 456 socom mags...
Not quite sure how the Man will take that logic though.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200229/f58ab6374f76bcd2e1caf1427dc7faff.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200229/8d84524bee46745c56f8b0e4995232b4.jpg)
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Is there any literature that I could read up on this law? Is there no grandfathering?
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I don’t have any magazines, CA Senator Kevin de Leon said they are clips.
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I do not own any firearms, ammo, reloading supplies, body armor, comms, preps, or standard magazines
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The mag law is dumb but it really didn't change anything. Since nearly every rifle has a pistol version they were always illegal. It was just never enforced.
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we in distress....
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The mag law is dumb but it really didn't change anything. Since nearly every rifle has a pistol version they were always illegal. It was just never enforced.
No sir, every pistol version of a rifle are required to have welded magazines so our legal magazines are incapable of being inserted into them.
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No sir, every pistol version of a rifle are required to have welded magazines so our legal magazines are incapable of being inserted into them.
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Additionally, since the modified AR pistol is in fact classified a pistol, it is limited to 10 round capacity mags whether the mag can be removed or not.
If the 10 rd mag is removable, the gas system must be disabled, making it no longer a semi-auto firearm.
They should have never treated [rifles with a pistol version] and [rifles without a pistol version] differently in the first place.
As we can see, it was easier to get the pistol mag capacity limit passed first, now followed up with the rifle mag limit. Boiling a frog.
No laws will ever be enough for the anti-gun, anti-2A crowd until guns are no longer allowed for anyone not in government.
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Wait, if this passes, they will say no more than 7rds can be loaded.
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I don't see why there is concern about ar mags > 10 rounds since most people already thought they were illegal. Except for the kindness of HPD's heart they did not enforce the law. If this law does get enacted will we be allowed to have AR pistols?
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Not only no but hell no, Nyet, Areinai!
Karera wa watashi no o shiri ni kisu suru koto ga dekimasu! >:D
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https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3367355 (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3367355)
(https://cdn.thingiverse.com/renders/14/fa/f7/5f/cb/665fa55e681b521220ec1ccd820a2058_preview_featured.jpg)
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https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3367355 (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3367355)
(https://cdn.thingiverse.com/renders/14/fa/f7/5f/cb/665fa55e681b521220ec1ccd820a2058_preview_featured.jpg)
That's beautiful, with all the hype people have put on 3d printers and manufacturing firearms, I never really thought about the use for printing mags. And in theory, you would only have to print the housing, because I know companies like magpul, etc. Make lots with the spring and follower to svc mags.
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We got some infiltrators we need to find out Who voted yes!
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We got some infiltrators we need to find out Who voted yes!
The HPD troll comes to mind..................
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How come no mo one maybe option.
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No sir, every pistol version of a rifle are required to have welded magazines so our legal magazines are incapable of being inserted into them.
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Not true, that only applies to semi-automatic pistols since only semi-auto pistols fall under the assault pistol law. So a pump action AR pistol, for example, would mean that AR15 magazines are illegal with or without the law.
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(https://pics.me.me/not-atf-how-do-you-do-fellow-firearmenthusiasts-seems-legit-14966422.png)
(https://i.imgflip.com/3r1bu0.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/3r1bu0)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)j
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No sir, every pistol version of a rifle are required to have welded magazines so our legal magazines are incapable of being inserted into them.
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I'm still trying to find where it says they have to be welded. Can't find anywhere in in HRS134 or in COH. The word is detachable, not welded.
But it doesn't matter anyway. HPD makes up the rules as the go. Like using tape measure on the outside of the rifle to measure a barrel
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I'm still trying to find where it says they have to be welded. Can't find anywhere in in HRS134 or in COH. The word is detachable, not welded.
But it doesn't matter anyway. HPD makes up the rules as the go. Like using tape measure on the outside of the rifle to measure a barrel
It dosnt say welded specifically. Epoxy is also another option.
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I'm still trying to find where it says they have to be welded. Can't find anywhere in in HRS134 or in COH. The word is detachable, not welded.
But it doesn't matter anyway. HPD makes up the rules as the go. Like using tape measure on the outside of the rifle to measure a barrel
It is an interpretation of what detachable would be. As I understand it, the logic is that if the change was easily reversible then it wouldn't qualify. So a weld would be harder to reverse and thus more permanent than something like say a set screw.
As far as tape measure to measure a barrel length, the HRS doesn't specify specifically how to measure a barrel so what they were doing on the video or picture wasn't really wrong legally, it just wasn't inline with how other groups measure barrels.
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It dosnt say welded specifically. Epoxy is also another option.
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Maybe something has changed but a while back I have heard others say epoxy attachment was denied
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It is an interpretation of what detachable would be. As I understand it, the logic is that if the change was easily reversible then it wouldn't qualify. So a weld would be harder to reverse and thus more permanent than something like say a set screw.
As far as tape measure to measure a barrel length, the HRS doesn't specify specifically how to measure a barrel so what they were doing on the video or picture wasn't really wrong legally, it just wasn't inline with how other groups measure barrels.
Wrong.
The only "group" that can specify how to measure barrel length is the BATFE. HPD needs to do the basics correctly, or nor at all.
The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the
furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and
measured.
If we needed every single detail on how to do everything written in some HRS, the laws would deforest the entire Big Island!
So, in short, HPD is doing it wrong.
https://www.atf.gov/file/58196/download
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I'm still trying to find where it says they have to be welded. Can't find anywhere in in HRS134 or in COH. The word is detachable, not welded.
But it doesn't matter anyway. HPD makes up the rules as the go. Like using tape measure on the outside of the rifle to measure a barrel
It dosnt say welded specifically. Epoxy is also another option.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
It is an interpretation of what detachable would be. As I understand it, the logic is that if the change was easily reversible then it wouldn't qualify. So a weld would be harder to reverse and thus more permanent than something like say a set screw.
As far as tape measure to measure a barrel length, the HRS doesn't specify specifically how to measure a barrel so what they were doing on the video or picture wasn't really wrong legally, it just wasn't inline with how other groups measure barrels.
LOGIC plays no part in law interpretation.
Last time I checked with Capt Nilsen, and his quote in RED is regarding assault pistols is as follows:
1. Is an “assault pistol” without a detachable magazine legal to possess in the State of Hawaii?
No. By definition in 134-1, assault pistol accepts a detachable magazine.
2. Is a single shot, not semiautomatic, “assault pistol” with a detachable magazine legal to possess in the State of Hawaii?
Do not understand the question. A single shot weapon will not have a detachable magazine. Only a bolt action weapon will fire single shot from a detachable magazine and by definition in 134-1 is not a semiautomatic firearm, which is required to meet the requirements to be an assault pistol.
3. Does the State of Hawaii have a legal definition of a detachable magazine, as it is not listed in HRS 134-1?
No. I am not aware of any.
4. If the State of Hawaii does not have a definition, would the legal definition from the State of California , also in the 9th Circuit, or Maryland be an acceptable definition?
California and Maryland definitions of “detachable magazine” are included below. Does the State of Hawaii agree with these definitions?
a. California, Title 11, Division 5, Chapter 39, Department of Justice Regulations for Assault Weapons and Large Capacity Magazines. ARTICLE 2. DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1: (a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.
b. Maryland, MD Code, Criminal Law, § 4-301: Definitions - Detachable magazine: (f) “Detachable magazine” means an ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from a firearm without requiring disassembly of the firearm action or without the use of a tool, including a bullet or cartridge.
Not the Honolulu Police Department’s place to interpret legislative intent / definition. Would refer this question to the Attorney General’s Office. HRS 134-8 just uses the term detachable magazine with no further explanation or definition.
This is the heart of the matter. HPD does not interpret the law so they are making it up to suit their own. That itself is the "definition" of Banana Republic or Dictatorship.
And I did contact the AG and they referred me back to HPD, so it is a closed loop that keeps going round and round but never answering the question.
Mr. X,
As far as I know, the legislature has not provided a more complete or thorough definition of “detachable magazine” than the one you have already located in the Hawaii Revised Statutes.
Until the legislature amends the law to provide a more comprehensive definition as to what constitutes a “detachable magazine”, the Department of the Attorney General is not in a position to adopt or ratify a definition for that term. I apologize if this response is unhelpful, however, we are constrained by the law and cannot unilaterally accept or reject definitions like the one you provided.
You may wish to pursue your prior inquiry with the Honolulu Police Department (assuming that you reside in Honolulu and intend to possess the fire-arm within their jurisdiction). I noted in your earlier e-mail a section wherein you sought clarification regarding how HPD determines if a magazine is detachable. I am not sure HPD will be responsive to further inquiries, however, they may be the agency best positioned to address your questions – particularly your overarching question – how can I make sure a particular fire-arm is legal to possess or own.
Your diligence in making sure you are within the law before possessing a fire-arm is laudable and I appreciate your efforts. I hope you are able to reach a satisfactory determination.
With regards,
Kory W. Young
Deputy Attorney General
Criminal Justice Division
333 Queen Street, Suite 200
Honolulu, Hawaii 96813
Legally they cannot tell you how to fix a magazine. And if they don't have a definition, then the onus is on them to get one from the AG, not you to prove it's not. If you have to use a tool or other implement to remove a magazine it is not detachable. Period. That has been determined and defined in multiple jurisdictions across the country. The barrel, pistol grip, and buffer tube are removable from your AR, but not detachable. You have to use a tool.
Anything they make you do beyond using a bullet button or the MEAN ARMS MA Lock to fix your magazine is illegal on their end. The other legal option is to have Battle Arms Development Fixed Magazine Conversion (or similar) where you must break the action open to remove the magazine. You have now fixed the magazine so the only way it can be removed is with a tool or breaking the action. Now we know in practice they will do whatever they want to deprive you of your rights.
Mean Arms https://www.meanarms.com/products/detail/ma-lock
Battle Arms https://www.battlearmsdevelopment.com/shop/product/bad-mrb-15-ar-15-california-compliant-fixed-magazine-conversion-3207
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A few guys did write to HPD and the AG for the definition of a fixed mag. Both request were denied and told to see a lawyer. #facepalm. They want to keep this as speculation so they can enforce it at will.
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A few guys did write to HPD and the AG for the definition of a fixed mag. Both request were denied and told to see a lawyer. #facepalm. They want to keep this as speculation so they can enforce it at will.
Yup... Been there done that, have a Tshirt that says "no in Hawaii"
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A few guys did write to HPD and the AG for the definition of a fixed mag. Both request were denied and told to see a lawyer. #facepalm. They want to keep this as speculation so they can enforce it at will.
that's what happens when we vote in a bunch of lawyers. They will pass legislation and establish procedures to benefit their own industry. This explains the #MeToo movement and legislation to extend statute of limitations to decades.
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(https://i.imgflip.com/3r6o6u.jpg)
Not perfect but...
HiFiCo If you want the original, PM me and I'll send you the artwork in CDR, EPS or AI.
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No!
I obey 10 laws, they are simple
and easy for everyone to understand.
Law is supposed to be simple so you can easily
comply.
Anything beyond that I repudiate.
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That graphic is beautiful
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Made better. Suitable for tshirts and posters
Someone correct my language if not right.
Hele Mai Lawe Ia - Come and take it
(https://i.imgflip.com/3r75ut.jpg)
(https://i.imgflip.com/3r78oa.jpg)
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Guess I need to buy a .458 SOCOM upper. :D
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Love the logo. I want a tshirt!
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Guess I need to buy a .458 SOCOM upper. :D
So do I, you know to keep up appearances. And it would be fun to shoot!
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Wrong.
The only "group" that can specify how to measure barrel length is the BATFE. HPD needs to do the basics correctly, or nor at all.
According to what state law? Maybe I am missing it but Hawaii state law doesn't define how to measure a barrel, it only says 16 inches. BATFE may have their own definition but that doesn't mean Hawaii law has to use their interpretation.
So no, unless you can show Hawaii law has to follow BATFE standards, it's not wrong.
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This is the heart of the matter. HPD does not interpret the law so they are making it up to suit their own. That itself is the "definition" of Banana Republic or Dictatorship.
And I did contact the AG and they referred me back to HPD, so it is a closed loop that keeps going round and round but never answering the question.
Legally they cannot tell you how to fix a magazine. And if they don't have a definition, then the onus is on them to get one from the AG, not you to prove it's not. If you have to use a tool or other implement to remove a magazine it is not detachable. Period. That has been determined and defined in multiple jurisdictions across the country. The barrel, pistol grip, and buffer tube are removable from your AR, but not detachable. You have to use a tool.
Anything they make you do beyond using a bullet button or the MEAN ARMS MA Lock to fix your magazine is illegal on their end. The other legal option is to have Battle Arms Development Fixed Magazine Conversion (or similar) where you must break the action open to remove the magazine. You have now fixed the magazine so the only way it can be removed is with a tool or breaking the action. Now we know in practice they will do whatever they want to deprive you of your rights.
Mean Arms https://www.meanarms.com/products/detail/ma-lock
Battle Arms https://www.battlearmsdevelopment.com/shop/product/bad-mrb-15-ar-15-california-compliant-fixed-magazine-conversion-3207
Interpretation is never something that can be completely avoided. It would be both unreasonable and nearly impossible to word a law so carefully so that no law had any gray are that an LEO would have to interpret. So when it comes to the word detachable they are going to have to draw the line somewhere. Judges may later rule if the officer interpreted it correctly. Ideally laws will be written to minimize areas open to interpretation but sooner or later cops, and even prosecutors, have to do some amount of interpreting.
Even you are applying an interpretation when you say if a tool is needed then it is removable but not detachable. (unless there is some law that specifically says that and I am just unaware of that law) You could of course argue one over the other but if not defined by law or precedence it will still be an interpretation. BTW I have heard many people say remove the magazine from the gun but never heard anyone say detach it from the gun. Not trying to debate you but just give an example of issues where different definitions would come into play, legal, commons, and technical.
When I said logic, what I was referring to was the set of standards they were giving to base their interpretation on. So not the logic of their interpretation but the logic of applying their interpretation. What I was explaining was what they explained to me in how they interpret the section.
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According to what state law? Maybe I am missing it but Hawaii state law doesn't define how to measure a barrel, it only says 16 inches. BATFE may have their own definition but that doesn't mean Hawaii law has to use their interpretation.
So no, unless you can show Hawaii law has to follow BATFE standards, it's not wrong.
There is a right way and a wrong way of measuring a barrel. Idk what the bafte manuel says, but the correct way is to measure by sticking a guide down the barrel so it touches the bolt.
Measuring from the outside is incorrect. Which may end up with someone in jail or their legal property confiscated for human error.
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Interpretation is never something that can be completely avoided. It would be both unreasonable and nearly impossible to word a law so carefully so that no law had any gray are that an LEO would have to interpret. So when it comes to the word detachable they are going to have to draw the line somewhere. Judges may later rule if the officer interpreted it correctly. Ideally laws will be written to minimize areas open to interpretation but sooner or later cops, and even prosecutors, have to do some amount of interpreting.
Even you are applying an interpretation when you say if a tool is needed then it is removable but not detachable. (unless there is some law that specifically says that and I am just unaware of that law) [see below] You could of course argue one over the other but if not defined by law or precedence it will still be an interpretation. BTW I have heard many people say remove the magazine from the gun but never heard anyone say detach it from the gun. Not trying to debate you but just give an example of issues where different definitions would come into play, legal, commons, and technical.
When I said logic, what I was referring to was the set of standards they were giving to base their interpretation on. So not the logic of their interpretation but the logic of applying their interpretation. What I was explaining was what they explained to me in how they interpret the section.
I agree that there will always be interpretation. But the Burden of Proof is on HPD and other Hawaii police departments to prove that it does not meet the requirements. Because the magazine was DESIGNED to be released from the receiver by only pushing a button, the adding of a "Bullet Button" or other method to increase the difficulty of removing the magazine to require a tool or breaking the action, substantially changes the design and no longer fits the "detachable" definition. Now if the State wants to change the language then they need to do that. HPD cannot state that that's the way they want it (because they do not interpret the law as stated by Capt. Nilsen). By using this standard, it would be no different than a traffic cop issuing a ticket for failing to stop by stating you didn't stop for 5 seconds at a stop sign. The law states a full and complete stop. If the wheels aren't turning, you're stopped. I mean they can, but they're wrong. and are open to civil suit by making people do otherwise.
But again, there is no logic when interpreting the Law. Either it is or it isn't. And if they say it isn't, then they have to provide the statutory evidence that it isn't (meaning in writing), not that my boss said it's supposed to be that way.
Laws defining detachable magazine from around the country
Connecticut State Laws and Published Ordinances - https://www.atf.gov/file/117176/download
(4) “Detachable magazine” means an ammunition feeding device that can be removed without disassembling the firearm action;
Maryland State Laws and Published Ordinances - https://www.atf.gov/file/117251/download
(i) "Detachable magazine" means an ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from a firearm without requiring disassembly of the firearm action or without the use of a tool, including a bullet or cartridge.
Illinois Compiled Statutes - https://www.atf.gov/file/117216/download
(2) “detachable magazine” means an ammunition feeding device that can be removed from a firearm without disassembly of the firearm action.
California - https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/regs/chapter39.pdf
(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.
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We need a 2a cruise.
Time to get a permit, polish up those Toyota Tacomas, bust out those DontTread On Me flags.
Block access to _____?
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We need a 2a cruise.
Time to get a permit, polish up those Toyota Tacomas, bust out those DontTread On Me flags.
Block access to _____?
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Ballard would be down on us like a horsefly on s==t.
I'd probably get a ticket for the parking permit hanging on my rear view mirror.
How can we send the graphic of our informal poll (refusing to comply) to the legislators without painting targets on our backs???
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We need a 2a cruise.
Time to get a permit, polish up those Toyota Tacomas, bust out those DontTread On Me flags.
Block access to _____?
Wait till you have a bad cold or flu and force yourself to get out of bed and go visit these anti2A guys in their office to say hello. Be sure to cough or sneeze into your hand before shaking hands with them.
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Ballard would be down on us like a horsefly on s==t.
I'd probably get a ticket for the parking permit hanging on my rear view mirror.
How can we send the graphic of our informal poll (refusing to comply) to the legislators without painting targets on our backs???
At some point we have to quit talking.
You are not dealing with Humans, we are dealing with Democrats.
Even my dogs understand they won't get fed if I say sit and they ignore me.
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At some point we have to quit talking.
You are not dealing with Humans, we are dealing with Democrats.
Even my dogs understand they won't get fed if I say sit and they ignore me.
Protesting is a waste of energy. If you really want to scare the shit out of them try coalition building. Lots more work trying to line up with semi-compatible values systems but the results get way more bang for the buck.
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Love the logo. I want a tshirt!
You want'em, you got'em
Proceeds will go to support us in our fight for our rights
Spread the word
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Different colors available
$25 for short sleeve
$30 for long sleeve
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Nice.
I want one. Will order soon.
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how about mag protector?
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There is a right way and a wrong way of measuring a barrel. Idk what the bafte manuel says, but the correct way is to measure by sticking a guide down the barrel so it touches the bolt.
Measuring from the outside is incorrect. Which may end up with someone in jail or their legal property confiscated for human error.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
I don't disagree with you but that doesn't mean they actually violated a law. Legal definitions don't always follow technical definitions though. They should ideally but technical definitions aren't automatically binding.
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I agree that there will always be interpretation. But the Burden of Proof is on HPD and other Hawaii police departments to prove that it does not meet the requirements. Because the magazine was DESIGNED to be released from the receiver by only pushing a button, the adding of a "Bullet Button" or other method to increase the difficulty of removing the magazine to require a tool or breaking the action, substantially changes the design and no longer fits the "detachable" definition. Now if the State wants to change the language then they need to do that. HPD cannot state that that's the way they want it (because they do not interpret the law as stated by Capt. Nilsen). By using this standard, it would be no different than a traffic cop issuing a ticket for failing to stop by stating you didn't stop for 5 seconds at a stop sign. The law states a full and complete stop. If the wheels aren't turning, you're stopped. I mean they can, but they're wrong. and are open to civil suit by making people do otherwise.
But again, there is no logic when interpreting the Law. Either it is or it isn't. And if they say it isn't, then they have to provide the statutory evidence that it isn't (meaning in writing), not that my boss said it's supposed to be that way.
Laws defining detachable magazine from around the country
Connecticut State Laws and Published Ordinances - https://www.atf.gov/file/117176/download
(4) “Detachable magazine” means an ammunition feeding device that can be removed without disassembling the firearm action;
Maryland State Laws and Published Ordinances - https://www.atf.gov/file/117251/download
(i) "Detachable magazine" means an ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from a firearm without requiring disassembly of the firearm action or without the use of a tool, including a bullet or cartridge.
Illinois Compiled Statutes - https://www.atf.gov/file/117216/download
(2) “detachable magazine” means an ammunition feeding device that can be removed from a firearm without disassembly of the firearm action.
California - https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/regs/chapter39.pdf
(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.
I think you hit the head on the nail, the police have the burden of proof to show a person violated the law or that a definition covers a certain situation. Therefore if there is some gray area the officer should act in the way that is least intrusive to someone's constitutional rights. That idea should serve as a guide and will reduce (but not totally eliminate) instances where officers have to make an interpretation.
The secondary step in this type of situation if someone alleged wrongdoing by the cop is also important to this topic. The cop is supposed to be operating on good faith and the judge or jury can determine whether the cop's actions were reasonable given what the cop knew at the time. This isn't so much a guide on how to interpret but a standard on how to judge whether a cop applied the law correctly. And ultimately it will be up to the jury to look at the firearm and listen to the arguments and decide whether the magazine was detachable or whether it was just removable.
I can see both sides of the issue here though. I once heard a prosecutor telling an court case where the accused was arrested for trespassing. The trespass law said enter or remain unlawfully on a property and the witness saw the suspect leaving the property. Someone on the jury voted not guilty and their explanation was that no one saw the suspect enter the property, only leave the property. Obviously to leave the property you had to first enter but the juror for whatever reason didn't see it as a violation of the law. I mention this story because it is funny and because it shows how interpretation issues can always come up. What was it the Bill Clinton said in court? "what is the definition of "Is?" or something like that. Absurd of course but I doubt the law ever bothered to define the word "is"
I was thinking about building a pump action AR pistol and I asked some technical questions about what would need to be done as far as disabling semi-auto capability so they wouldn't consider it an assault pistol. The basic message I got (it was too long ago to remember word for word) was that it couldn't be something that was easily changeable. So I couldn't just remove the buffer spring (for example) and then claim I don't have a semi-auto gun. That doesn't cover the word detachable but it is the experience I can attest to at HPD on a similar issue..
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I don't disagree with you but that doesn't mean they actually violated a law. Legal definitions don't always follow technical definitions though. They should ideally but technical definitions aren't automatically binding.
That makes absolutely no sense.
If the LAW says a < 16" rifle barrel is ILLEGAL, and the POLICE in the FIREARMS DIVISION, who have a duty to enforce that LAW don't know the proper way to actually measure a rifle barrel, your response is "but the LAW doesn't say how to do it?
LOL!!!!
If they do it wrong, confiscate your firearm, and arrest you for a felony firearm violation, maybe you'd figure out why there doesn't need to be a specific law to violate the spirit of one that does exist.
"Your window tint is too dark. Law says 80% max."
"How do you know it's more than 80% unless you measured it with proper instruments?"
"The law doesn't tell me how to make that measurement. Here's your ticket."
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I don't disagree with you but that doesn't mean they actually violated a law. Legal definitions don't always follow technical definitions though. They should ideally but technical definitions aren't automatically binding.
Measuring wrong isnt illegal, but it will cost the innocent gun owner time, money, and their job.
So there is a right way and a wrong way. The cop is doing it the wrong way.
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Measuring wrong isnt illegal, but it will cost the innocent gun owner time, money, and their job.
So there is a right way and a wrong way. The cop is doing it the wrong way.
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You are right but all I am trying to illustrate is that there is no universal "right way".
Tomatoes are fruits by a botanical definition but by law they are vegetables (it has to do with how they are taxed IIRC). So who is right?
I fully agree that the police should adhere to accepted gunsmithing standards on how to measure a barrel, only saying they are not violating any legal definition by doing it differently. And if there is any doubt they should side on behalf of the person bring in the gun, who cares about an 1/8th inch, but that's just my philosophy.
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You are right but all I am trying to illustrate is that there is no universal "right way".
Tomatoes are fruits by a botanical definition but by law they are vegetables (it has to do with how they are taxed IIRC). So who is right?
I fully agree that the police should adhere to accepted gunsmithing standards on how to measure a barrel, only saying they are not violating any legal definition by doing it differently. And if there is any doubt they should side on behalf of the person bring in the gun, who cares about an 1/8th inch, but that's just my philosophy.
There is a right way and the ATF (which is the governing agency on firearms) has defined it here in an official publication https://www.atf.gov/file/58196/download
The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.
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There is a right way and the ATF (which is the governing agency on firearms) has defined it here in an official publication https://www.atf.gov/file/58196/download
The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.
According to EEF, if 99% of people follow an official, federal method for doing something, and 1% decide to make up their own procedure, then there is no "universal method."
The truth is, there IS a universal method even if you decide to ignore 99% of everyone else adopting consistent and well-documented federal guidance.
Universal doesn't require 100% of people agreeing and using the same method. Universal means it applies in all cases without exception. Therefore, the method the ATF provides is universal. The method the HPD uses is not universal, since that method will fail to give accurate measurements depending on firearm design.
Using EEF's own terms, there IS a universal method. And HPD isn't bothering to follow it.
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Mind you all that you guys are arguing with a person who knew nothing about 3D printers but opined inaccurately about it.
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Mind you all that you guys are arguing with a person who knew nothing about 3D printers but opined inaccurately about it.
Right, but it would be negligent to allow such inaccurate and dishonest comments in support of wrongful actions by our LAW ENFORCEMENT agency to go unchallenged. HPD is arbitrarily making up their procedures in spite of the existence of proper procedures published by a federal agency. Arguing that they have that latitude and discretion plays into the hands of the government who banks on the public being too ignorant to recognize when they are being penalized for doing nothing wrong.
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Mind you all that you guys are arguing with a person who knew nothing about 3D printers but opined inaccurately about it.
If nothing else it is helping us figure out how they are brainwashing the beat cops so that we can come up with suitable deprogramming techniques for the ones who are getting fed up with their corrupt leadership.
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You are right but all I am trying to illustrate is that there is no universal "right way".
Tomatoes are fruits by a botanical definition but by law they are vegetables (it has to do with how they are taxed IIRC). So who is right?
I fully agree that the police should adhere to accepted gunsmithing standards on how to measure a barrel, only saying they are not violating any legal definition by doing it differently. And if there is any doubt they should side on behalf of the person bring in the gun, who cares about an 1/8th inch, but that's just my philosophy.
There is no universal right way, but there is a wrong way. And measuring the outside of the barrel is the wrong way.
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If nothing else it is helping us figure out how they are brainwashing the beat cops so that we can come up with suitable deprogramming techniques for the ones who are getting fed up with their corrupt leadership.
I would say more like brain washing recruits so they blindly follow orders. Like red flag orders. I know guys who didn't get into HPD and they seem like they're free thinkers. I know other guys who got in and are more of a follower.
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If nothing else it is helping us figure out how they are brainwashing the beat cops so that we can come up with suitable deprogramming techniques for the ones who are getting fed up with their corrupt leadership.
I suspect you are granting a higher level of intelligence to the average cop to allow them to follow the reasoning required for that.
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Any law that is unconstitutional must be met with opposition by we the people and especially by our congress!
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Any law that is unconstitutional must be met with opposition by we the people and especially by our congress!
Our Congress, both local and Federal doesn't give a rats ass about us.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0617/7485/products/Bumper_Sticker_No_One_Is_Coming_It_Is_Up_To_Us_590x.jpg?v=1570576919)
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Da mo laws dey pas, da less I stay incline fo follow. Too confusing fo rememba wat legal now not legal tomorrow.
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Da mo laws dey pas, da less I stay incline fo follow. Too confusing fo rememba wat legal now not legal tomorrow.
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Especially if you are in the older demographic.
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Especially if you are in the older demographic.
If I'm in the "older" demo, what does that say about Bernie and Biden? :rofl:
Is there a "ready to expire" demo?
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Mind you all that you guys are arguing with a person who knew nothing about 3D printers but opined inaccurately about it.
I used some innacurate technical terms, my error was pointed out, and I admitted my mistake. Mind you that my mistaken understanding was not directly related to me point. Good job being honest there ren.
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There is a right way and the ATF (which is the governing agency on firearms) has defined it here in an official publication https://www.atf.gov/file/58196/download
Yes but that is federal law. Federal law doesn't dictate state law. If HPD were applying a federal law then they would have to follow the ATF definition but they aren't so they don't. Should they follow industry standard? Absolutely. Is there some law that says they have to? Nope! You are mistakenly assuming that industry standard somehow creates a local legal guideline. Again, note my point about tomatoes being fruit but the federal government considers it a vegetable. Industry expert standard does not dictate law. I am talking actual law here, not ideal, even though I agree with your ideal fully.
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Yes but that is federal law. Federal law doesn't dictate state law. If HPD were applying a federal law then they would have to follow the ATF definition but they aren't so they don't. Should they follow industry standard? Absolutely. Is there some law that says they have to? Nope! You are mistakenly assuming that industry standard somehow creates a local legal guideline. Again, note my point about tomatoes being fruit but the federal government considers it a vegetable. Industry expert standard does not dictate law. I am talking actual law here, not ideal, even though I agree with your ideal fully.
So in other words HPD will take every opportunity to screw gun owners by making up its own arcane laws that are clearly meant to trap us. Are you trying to convince more people to not register their weapons?
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So in other words HPD will take every opportunity to screw gun owners by making up its own arcane laws that are clearly meant to trap us. Are you trying to convince more people to not register their weapons?
No idea, I was only pointing out they aren't required to follow ATF definitions in applying a state law. In no way was I saying it was a good idea they make up their own standards and measure the barrel different from industry standard.
Personally I would think that officers measured the gun that way because they were just never trained about the industry standard way, I don't always assume the worst of people.
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No idea, I was only pointing out they aren't required to follow ATF definitions in applying a state law. In no way was I saying it was a good idea they make up their own standards and measure the barrel different from industry standard.
Personally I would think that officers measured the gun that way because they were just never trained about the industry standard way, I don't always assume the worst of people.
Well if HPD making up their own rules is the case then by default they have to prove we are guilty of some offense. Wait no written rule? Then how can they enforce anything? Rule number 1 of law enforcement is must have written law. That is unless they are corrupt. But then I repeat myself
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so what is the definition of a magazine?
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so what is the definition of a magazine?
Depends on what your definition of IS is
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No idea, I was only pointing out they aren't required to follow ATF definitions in applying a state law. In no way was I saying it was a good idea they make up their own standards and measure the barrel different from industry standard.
Personally I would think that officers measured the gun that way because they were just never trained about the industry standard way, I don't always assume the worst of people.
Again, it’s not and “industry standard” as you describe it but it’s a regulatory one from the ATF. That’s the way it is. ;D
https://youtu.be/_v5c_p1Uju0
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I will comply in hope that i will please my masters and maybe they will let me join the Democratic socialist party! So i can to tell people what to do someday!
I will comply in hope that I will please my masters and maybe they will let me join the Democratic Socialist Party! So that I can keep my AR15 so I can tell people what to do some day! :shaka:
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so what is the definition of a magazine?
Have to check again but I don't think the HRS defines a magazine specifically.
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so what is the definition of a magazine?
It is a bound volume that is bigger than a pamphlet but smaller than a book.
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It is a bound volume that is bigger than a pamphlet but smaller than a book. It typically has a large photo of a nude girl in the middle and you had to hide it from your parents.
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FIFY
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If you haven't broken any laws! (Wait let me rephrase that!) If you haven't committed any Fellony's you should be FREE to own what ever you want!
The Problem with our society is that we have allowed the Government to make too many stupid laws!
America is a Constitutional Republic! Abide by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and that is all we are subject to follow!
Anything else is an infringement on your RIGHTS as an AMERICAN citizen!