Post by: Jl808 on April 01, 2020, 07:14:58 AM
Post by: RSN172 on April 01, 2020, 08:27:46 AM
I am not donating what I have. I don't have enough to donate.
Post by: drck1000 on April 01, 2020, 08:39:47 AM
I have one box of 20 3M N95 masks that I bought in 2018. My wife and I used masks for the first time yesterday to go shopping. I see a lot of people do not know how to properly put on the mask. The box has instructions and I had once attended a PPE class for construction which included how to properly put on a mask.Yup. See lots taking it off to talk to folks. You just removed one of the main big picture potential benefit of widespread mask use which is to limit how much the person talking from spewing. Then people still touching their face or scratching their nose under the mask. Then there's people using gloves, but then touching common touch points and then touching their face, cell phone, etc with the same gloved hand. For many, it's a "feel good" measure that can end up hurting overall if people count on that as opposed to in addition to good hygiene.
I am not donating what I have. I don't have enough to donate.
Post by: RSN172 on April 01, 2020, 08:46:03 AM
Post by: changemyoil66 on April 01, 2020, 09:32:40 AM
I have mask, and will not donate them. They're for personal usage.
On a side note, there was a guy in NY hoarding and price gouging mask. They were confiscated. So this brings up a dangerous president. The government taking someones legal property without compensation. I understand if they issued him a citation, but to take his property is troublesome.
Post by: drck1000 on April 01, 2020, 09:59:58 AM
My issue is why didn't the hospitals have enough for staff? Compared to all the other stuff they buy, mask are cheap. They can easily keep 5K in stock and not even break the budget. Each hospital makes millions in revenue every years. So to spend some of that on mask that could be used even prior to CV is just poor planning.Which dangerous president? Nixon? ???
I have mask, and will not donate them. They're for personal usage.
On a side note, there was a guy in NY hoarding and price gouging mask. They were confiscated. So this brings up a dangerous president. The government taking someones legal property without compensation. I understand if they issued him a citation, but to take his property is troublesome.
Post by: RSN172 on April 01, 2020, 10:13:05 AM
Which dangerous president? Nixon? ???Hahaha, good one. I stay tink da word he lookin fo is precedent.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 01, 2020, 10:40:34 AM
My issue is why didn't the hospitals have enough for staff? Compared to all the other stuff they buy, mask are cheap. They can easily keep 5K in stock and not even break the budget. Each hospital makes millions in revenue every years. So to spend some of that on mask that could be used even prior to CV is just poor planning.
I have mask, and will not donate them. They're for personal usage.
On a side note, there was a guy in NY hoarding and price gouging mask. They were confiscated. So this brings up a dangerous president. The government taking someones legal property without compensation. I understand if they issued him a citation, but to take his property is troublesome.
Nobody, even hospitals, stockpiles cases on top of cases of single-use disposable masks in quantities necessary for this kind of problem.
Storage, rotating stock, and the chance for damage and having to dispose of unused stock is always a concern. Hospitals, like most businesses, buy things on a periodic, recurring basis. When stock is used faster, they order more for next delivery. When used slower, they reduce that order. Keeping just what they think they will use during a "normally busy" period is what they will do. If they need more, there's always a way to get them. At least, until EVERY PERSON, HOSPITAL and BUSINESS starts buying up the entire nation's stock of masks out of panic.
Over time, these masks can start to become less effective while sitting in storage. If they never get used, it's wasted money and resources.
Prepping is a balancing act. How much of your income do you set aside for buying stuff you will likely never use?
Hind sight is 20/20. Maybe some smart person will invent a reusable mask that is safer and easier to use and clean than what's available now.
The police "take" others' property all the time. It's called collecting evidence.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 01, 2020, 10:48:32 AM
There are "what if everybody wore a mask?" academic thought exercises. Then there is reality -- not enough masks to properly equip everybody.
There are still people refusing to not gather in large numbers. And these are the people some believe will wear masks for the good of everyone? If everyone doesn't use a mask, along with following the distancing and washing guidance, then we can't stop asymptomatic carriers from infecting others. Plain and simple. An uninfected person wearing a mask will get it, not exclusively, from touching something or through their eyes.
Short of wearing full Chem or HAZMAT suits, and going through a decontamination station every time you take the gear off, just having a mask is not the answer.
Post by: Kuleana on April 01, 2020, 11:26:28 AM
Short of wearing full Chem or HAZMAT suits, and going through a decontamination station every time you take the gear off, just having a mask is not the answer.
If what you say is true, will you donate whatever masks you have to those of us who want to use it? ;)
Post by: hvybarrels on April 01, 2020, 11:38:31 AM
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 01, 2020, 11:47:52 AM
If what you say is true, will you donate whatever masks you have to those of us who want to use it? ;)
I have masks that I use regularly for woodworking and spray-painting. I'm not about to donate them when they have an effective, normal use.
They use replaceable filters. I just installed new ones in each mask. *IF* there is a need/reason to use them, I'm ready.
Until then, my masks are not up for grabs, since I do have a need outside of this current situation.
Maybe you should try making a rational, logical point rather than trying to turn this around to make a (feeble) personal attack.
Post by: groveler on April 01, 2020, 12:00:42 PM
I remember helping him on his senior project.
Something to do with Typhus.
I assisted him in growing enough Typhus
that would kill everyone in the city of Long Beach
CA( according to him) Population 425,000
at the time.
He used to torture us kids. One of our chores was to
wash dishes after meals. His challenge was
You think that is clean? He did this when we did not
follow his rather strict rules.
We had to prep a Petri dish and go through the
process of growing a culture, then prep it on a slide, and
then examine it under a microscope.
This really doesn't take very long and I had helped him do it
a hundred times in the School laboratory.
We scrubbed the hell out of the dishes, our hands,
and counter surfaces after seeing and identifying
what grew on our "Clean" surfaces.
Granted Viruses are different from Bacteria,
but the point was well made, Transmission
is insidious.
Wash up, use antiseptic on surfaces, and
don't openly cough or sneeze.
Most of the reason for a mask is for you to not
transmit your illness(germs) to someone else.
Post by: passivekinetic on April 01, 2020, 12:28:47 PM
BREAKING NEWS! Covid-19 Prevention: New Study Proves That Social Distancing Of 1 to 3 Meters Is Nothing But Fake News and Misinformation
Covid-19 Prevention: Many are still wondering who is the charlatan who came the idea that social distancing of 1 to 3 meters would suffice to prevent the spread of the SARS CoV-2 coronavirus despite no official scientific studies to show that it true and is fully safe.
To make matters worse, since the beginning of this Covid-19 breakout, we have allowed government authorities, health officials, unreliable medical experts and academics, social media platforms and search engines and also health organizations to get away with fake news and misinformation. Many of these ignorant charlatans have been advocating social distancing and misleading the public that it is safe as long as distances of between 1 to 3 meters is maintained although there are no supporting scientific studies to say it works.
We at Thailand Medical News have always favoured stringent lockdowns, self-isolation, frequent testing as the main strategies to curtail the spread. Now with more studies emerging that social distancing really does not work, we strongly advocate that individuals and the public worldwide start taking legal actions and class suits against all sites, experts and authorities advocating social distancing of between 1 to 3 meters as these ignorant buffoons are actually endangering the lives of many.
A new research by qualified experts in their field from the MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) lead by Dr Lydia Bourouiba, an Associate Professor at MIT, have researched the dynamics of exhalations (coughs and sneezes, for instance) for years at The Fluid Dynamics of Disease Transmission Laboratory and found exhalations cause gaseous clouds that can travel up to 27 feet (8.2 meters).
The new research is published in the Journal of The American Medical Association (JAMA). DOI: 10.1001/jama.2020.4756
The new research could have implications for the global Covid-19 pandemic, though measures called for by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the World Health Organization call for six and three feet (0.9 m and 1.8 m) of space, respectively.(It should be noted that The WHO from day one has failed to prevent the global spread of the Covid-19 that originated from China plus they were the very same entity that advocated no border closures and no stopping of travel along with a lot of other misinformation that have resulted in the predicament that the world is in and yet no one has started any actions against any of these individuals while the US CDC is the hopeless entity that messed up on the diagnosing criteria and also on arranging of sufficient test kits that has resulted in the mess that the United Sates is in today yet no one from the entity has done the right thing of stepping down due to their incompetency. The American public and the world should never forget these two entities and the names and individuals associated.)
Dr Bourouiba told Thailand Medical News, "There's an urgency in revising the guidelines currently being given by the WHO and the CDC on the needs for social distancing and also protective equipment, particularly for the frontline health care workers.”
Dr Bourouiba's research calls for better measures to protect health care workers and, potentially, more distance from infected people who are coughing or sneezing. She said current guidelines are based on "large droplets" as the method of transmission for the virus and the idea that those large droplets can only go a certain distance.
In the research study, Bourouiba said peak exhalation speeds can reach 33 to 100 feet per second (36 km/h and 110 km/h) and "currently used surgical and N95 masks are not tested for these potential characteristics of respiratory emissions."
The dangerous idea being propagated by many that social distancing of between 1 to 3 meters based that droplets "hit a virtual wall and stop there and after that we are safe," is not based on evidence found in her research, Dr Bourouiba said, and also not based on "evidence that we have about COVID transmission."
Dr Bourouiba argued that a "gaseous cloud" that can carry droplets of all sizes is emitted when a person coughs, sneezes or otherwise exhales. The cloud is only partially mitigated by sneezing or coughing into your elbow.
She added, "In terms of the fluid regime on how the exhalations are emitted, the key point that we have shown is that there's a gaseous cloud that carries droplets of all sorts of sizes, not 'large' versus 'small' or 'droplets' versus 'aerosols.'"
Professor Dr Paul Pottinger, an infectious disease expert at the University of Washington School of Medicine, said questions remain about the distances at which the virus is effective.
He said, "For me, the question is not how far the germs can travel, but how far can they travel before they're no longer a threat. The smaller the germ particles, the lower the risk that they might infect somebody who would breathe them in or get them stuck in their nose or their mouth.”
He added, "The biggest threat we think with the coronavirus is actually the larger droplets. Droplets of saliva, snot, spit. Droplets that almost look like rain, if you will, when someone sneezes. Those droplets are large enough that gravity still acts on them. Usually, within about six feet of leaving somebody's body, those larger, more infectious droplets will drop to the ground. That's where the six-foot rule comes from. But it is the smaller and minute droplets that can be propelled by air and wind that is off a concern"
When questioned about this new study, the hopeless World Health Organisation (WHO) referred to a recent scientific brief on the methods of transmission, which recommended "droplet and contact precautions for those people caring for COVID-19 patients." The CDC did not respond to an emailed request for comment.
WHO however said later in a statement, "WHO carefully monitors emerging evidence about this critical topic and will update this scientific brief as more information becomes available. WHO welcomes modeling studies, which are helpful for planning purposes. WHO teams work with several modeling groups to inform our work."
As the SARS-Cov-2 coronavirus were effective at ranges of up to 27 feet (8.2 meters), as Bourouiba contends in her research, Dr Pottinger said he believes more people would be sick and more could have been affected as a result of the previous misinformation.
He added, "It takes a certain number of viral particles, we call them 'virions,' or individual viruses, it takes a certain number of individual viruses to actually get a foothold inside the body and cause that infection to get going.”
He further added, "Now, we don't know exactly what that number is, but it's probably more than a single virus. But we do know that this SARS-CoV-2 virus travels very efficiently by air.”
Dr Bourouiba said she wants to see recommendations made based on current science not "policies based on supply, for example, because we don't have enough PPE (personal protective equipment)." It's well-known PPE is in short supply nationwide and health care workers have been desperately trying to find effective ways to deal with shortages.
She added, "Although there remains a lot of questions to be addressed about how much virus is at a given distance or not, we have no answer one way or another at this time. Therefore, the precautionary principle should drive the policies to state that we should have high-grade respirators used for health care workers."
She stressed, "Once that's decided, that's the thrust that's needed to now mobilize most effectively the kind of tremendous high production level that is possible to reach in a great country like the United States. This thrust is not happening."
Please share this article to as many of your friends and loved ones to save their lives.
For the latest on strategies of Covid-19 prevention, keep logging on to; Thailand Medical News.
PS: We do not apologise for the name calling nor apologise for lowering professional standards for such actions as we are pained by the lost of some of our close medical and healthcare professionals and colleagues that we personally know in countries like Italy, Spain, the United States and elsewhere. They are hundreds dying by the hour and millions soon too. Its time to stop being politically correct and even hypocritical and its time for people to start being vocal and proactive. People need to be told the truth and medical sites with the right information should not be stopped by threats or even being financially threatened by corporate entities that are being controlled by governments.
PLEASE HELP. URGENT APPEAL: Please help support our site and our initiatives to propel and aid research by making a donation to help sustain the site. Donations are accepted via paypal: https://www.thailandmedical.news/p/sponsorship
Post by: macsak on April 01, 2020, 12:36:09 PM
https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/breaking-news-covid-19-prevention-new-study-proves-that-social-distancing-of-1-to-3-meters-is-nothing-but-fake-news-and-misinformation
BREAKING NEWS! Covid-19 Prevention: New Study Proves That Social Distancing Of 1 to 3 Meters Is Nothing But Fake News and Misinformation
Covid-19 Prevention: Many are still wondering who is the charlatan who came the idea that social distancing of 1 to 3 meters would suffice to prevent the spread of the SARS CoV-2 coronavirus despite no official scientific studies to show that it true and is fully safe.
To make matters worse, since the beginning of this Covid-19 breakout, we have allowed government authorities, health officials, unreliable medical experts and academics, social media platforms and search engines and also health organizations to get away with fake news and misinformation. Many of these ignorant charlatans have been advocating social distancing and misleading the public that it is safe as long as distances of between 1 to 3 meters is maintained although there are no supporting scientific studies to say it works.
We at Thailand Medical News have always favoured stringent lockdowns, self-isolation, frequent testing as the main strategies to curtail the spread. Now with more studies emerging that social distancing really does not work, we strongly advocate that individuals and the public worldwide start taking legal actions and class suits against all sites, experts and authorities advocating social distancing of between 1 to 3 meters as these ignorant buffoons are actually endangering the lives of many.
A new research by qualified experts in their field from the MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) lead by Dr Lydia Bourouiba, an Associate Professor at MIT, have researched the dynamics of exhalations (coughs and sneezes, for instance) for years at The Fluid Dynamics of Disease Transmission Laboratory and found exhalations cause gaseous clouds that can travel up to 27 feet (8.2 meters).
The new research is published in the Journal of The American Medical Association (JAMA). DOI: 10.1001/jama.2020.4756
The new research could have implications for the global Covid-19 pandemic, though measures called for by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the World Health Organization call for six and three feet (0.9 m and 1.8 m) of space, respectively.(It should be noted that The WHO from day one has failed to prevent the global spread of the Covid-19 that originated from China plus they were the very same entity that advocated no border closures and no stopping of travel along with a lot of other misinformation that have resulted in the predicament that the world is in and yet no one has started any actions against any of these individuals while the US CDC is the hopeless entity that messed up on the diagnosing criteria and also on arranging of sufficient test kits that has resulted in the mess that the United Sates is in today yet no one from the entity has done the right thing of stepping down due to their incompetency. The American public and the world should never forget these two entities and the names and individuals associated.)
Dr Bourouiba told Thailand Medical News, "There's an urgency in revising the guidelines currently being given by the WHO and the CDC on the needs for social distancing and also protective equipment, particularly for the frontline health care workers.”
Dr Bourouiba's research calls for better measures to protect health care workers and, potentially, more distance from infected people who are coughing or sneezing. She said current guidelines are based on "large droplets" as the method of transmission for the virus and the idea that those large droplets can only go a certain distance.
In the research study, Bourouiba said peak exhalation speeds can reach 33 to 100 feet per second (36 km/h and 110 km/h) and "currently used surgical and N95 masks are not tested for these potential characteristics of respiratory emissions."
The dangerous idea being propagated by many that social distancing of between 1 to 3 meters based that droplets "hit a virtual wall and stop there and after that we are safe," is not based on evidence found in her research, Dr Bourouiba said, and also not based on "evidence that we have about COVID transmission."
Dr Bourouiba argued that a "gaseous cloud" that can carry droplets of all sizes is emitted when a person coughs, sneezes or otherwise exhales. The cloud is only partially mitigated by sneezing or coughing into your elbow.
She added, "In terms of the fluid regime on how the exhalations are emitted, the key point that we have shown is that there's a gaseous cloud that carries droplets of all sorts of sizes, not 'large' versus 'small' or 'droplets' versus 'aerosols.'"
Professor Dr Paul Pottinger, an infectious disease expert at the University of Washington School of Medicine, said questions remain about the distances at which the virus is effective.
He said, "For me, the question is not how far the germs can travel, but how far can they travel before they're no longer a threat. The smaller the germ particles, the lower the risk that they might infect somebody who would breathe them in or get them stuck in their nose or their mouth.”
He added, "The biggest threat we think with the coronavirus is actually the larger droplets. Droplets of saliva, snot, spit. Droplets that almost look like rain, if you will, when someone sneezes. Those droplets are large enough that gravity still acts on them. Usually, within about six feet of leaving somebody's body, those larger, more infectious droplets will drop to the ground. That's where the six-foot rule comes from. But it is the smaller and minute droplets that can be propelled by air and wind that is off a concern"
When questioned about this new study, the hopeless World Health Organisation (WHO) referred to a recent scientific brief on the methods of transmission, which recommended "droplet and contact precautions for those people caring for COVID-19 patients." The CDC did not respond to an emailed request for comment.
WHO however said later in a statement, "WHO carefully monitors emerging evidence about this critical topic and will update this scientific brief as more information becomes available. WHO welcomes modeling studies, which are helpful for planning purposes. WHO teams work with several modeling groups to inform our work."
As the SARS-Cov-2 coronavirus were effective at ranges of up to 27 feet (8.2 meters), as Bourouiba contends in her research, Dr Pottinger said he believes more people would be sick and more could have been affected as a result of the previous misinformation.
He added, "It takes a certain number of viral particles, we call them 'virions,' or individual viruses, it takes a certain number of individual viruses to actually get a foothold inside the body and cause that infection to get going.”
He further added, "Now, we don't know exactly what that number is, but it's probably more than a single virus. But we do know that this SARS-CoV-2 virus travels very efficiently by air.”
Dr Bourouiba said she wants to see recommendations made based on current science not "policies based on supply, for example, because we don't have enough PPE (personal protective equipment)." It's well-known PPE is in short supply nationwide and health care workers have been desperately trying to find effective ways to deal with shortages.
She added, "Although there remains a lot of questions to be addressed about how much virus is at a given distance or not, we have no answer one way or another at this time. Therefore, the precautionary principle should drive the policies to state that we should have high-grade respirators used for health care workers."
She stressed, "Once that's decided, that's the thrust that's needed to now mobilize most effectively the kind of tremendous high production level that is possible to reach in a great country like the United States. This thrust is not happening."
Please share this article to as many of your friends and loved ones to save their lives.
For the latest on strategies of Covid-19 prevention, keep logging on to; Thailand Medical News.
PS: We do not apologise for the name calling nor apologise for lowering professional standards for such actions as we are pained by the lost of some of our close medical and healthcare professionals and colleagues that we personally know in countries like Italy, Spain, the United States and elsewhere. They are hundreds dying by the hour and millions soon too. Its time to stop being politically correct and even hypocritical and its time for people to start being vocal and proactive. People need to be told the truth and medical sites with the right information should not be stopped by threats or even being financially threatened by corporate entities that are being controlled by governments.
PLEASE HELP. URGENT APPEAL: Please help support our site and our initiatives to propel and aid research by making a donation to help sustain the site. Donations are accepted via paypal: https://www.thailandmedical.news/p/sponsorship
Post by: passivekinetic on April 01, 2020, 12:43:41 PM
I just post the most interesting and relevant articles that I randomly see from around the Web.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 01, 2020, 12:45:07 PM
https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/breaking-news-covid-19-prevention-new-study-proves-that-social-distancing-of-1-to-3-meters-is-nothing-but-fake-news-and-misinformation
:
:
We at Thailand Medical News have always favoured stringent lockdowns, self-isolation, frequent testing as the main strategies to curtail the spread. Now with more studies emerging that social distancing really does not work, we strongly advocate that individuals and the public worldwide start taking legal actions and class suits against all sites, experts and authorities advocating social distancing of between 1 to 3 meters as these ignorant buffoons are actually endangering the lives of many.
:
:
PLEASE HELP. URGENT APPEAL: Please help support our site and our initiatives to propel and aid research by making a donation to help sustain the site. Donations are accepted via paypal: https://www.thailandmedical.news/p/sponsorship
Yeah. Legal action. That always helps in emergency situations. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
And begging for donations to support a media (not medical) website so they can continue bashing anyone who supports well-documented, effective measures to reduce the risk of spreading germs tells us all we need to know.
Post by: passivekinetic on April 01, 2020, 12:46:20 PM
Yeah. Legal action. That always helps in emergency situations. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
And begging for donations to support a media (not medical) website so they can continue bashing anyone who supports well-documented, effective measures to reduce the risk of spreading germs tells us all we need to know.
Did you read the article? It specifically quotes the new MIT research which specifically debunks the "well-documented, effective measures to reduce the risk of spreading germs."
Post by: drck1000 on April 01, 2020, 01:03:24 PM
One of my best friends is an infectious disease PhD type. Her research is actually in detection technologies, but it was interesting to see her perspectives on things when she had kids. I would think given her background, she'd be quite protective of her kids. But not really. Though with CV19, her angst is mostly media and people taking things out of context and things going to the extremes, in both directions.
Anyways, my 0.02. . .
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 01, 2020, 01:05:48 PM
Did you read the article? It specifically quotes the new MIT research which specifically debunks the "well-documented, effective measures to reduce the risk of spreading germs."
That's not "new research." Just old research recycled for today's pathogens and using better cameras and lasers.
I remember seeing these movies/films in the 70s and 80s, to get people to cover their mouths when coughing and sneezing. That's before we started teaching people to use an elbow or sleeve versus a hand that you'll be using to spread germs to other surfaces. In the 60s and before, most people carried a handkerchief. That helped because sneezes were covered. With the proliferation of Kleenex/tissues, people no longer carry cloth handkerchiefs, but neither do most carry tissues. Hence the need to instruct people to use an elbow.
The CoronaSphere Lounge Episode 12: The Case for Masks
https://youtu.be/5jEPWq91QRk
This Slo-Mo Sneeze Video Shows Just How Far Spray Clouds Can Spread
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/slo-mo-video-shows-just-how-big-sneeze-clouds-can-get-180960257/
DIY Science: How far does a sneeze travel? Snot science!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARCoKoy_BRE
MythBusters - Art of the Sneeze | Flu Fiction
https://youtu.be/0f4sUNWkq60
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 01, 2020, 01:08:01 PM
Did you read the article? It specifically quotes the new MIT research which specifically debunks the "well-documented, effective measures to reduce the risk of spreading germs."
Yes. I also read the "About" page.
Cherry-picking is an understatement. Calling for lawsuits at this stage against top health professionals calling for physical distancing is beyond ignorant.
Post by: groveler on April 01, 2020, 01:09:36 PM
IMO, there's a lot of folks trying to make parallels for analysis that isn't intended to be used that way. For instance, it is my understanding that a lot of the guidance is based on statistics, not zero exposure. Similar to gun statistics, people either tend to take it how they want to in order to fit their narrative as well as take observation trends and make rules about them. In the end, context is key. . . If say a strategy is based on reducing exposure on basis of statistics to "flatten the curve", it may not necessarily jive with an approach in which say an infectious disease doctor would, especially given a context of having dealt with pathogens with much higher lethality.Right on!
One of my best friends is an infectious disease PhD type. Her research is actually in detection technologies, but it was interesting to see her perspectives on things when she had kids. I would think given her background, she'd be quite protective of her kids. But not really. Though with CV19, her angst is mostly media and people taking things out of context and things going to the extremes, in both directions.
Anyways, my 0.02. . .
"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself".
I despise FDR but a stopped analog clock is right twice a day.
Post by: changemyoil66 on April 01, 2020, 01:11:43 PM
Nobody, even hospitals, stockpiles cases on top of cases of single-use disposable masks in quantities necessary for this kind of problem.
Storage, rotating stock, and the chance for damage and having to dispose of unused stock is always a concern. Hospitals, like most businesses, buy things on a periodic, recurring basis. When stock is used faster, they order more for next delivery. When used slower, they reduce that order. Keeping just what they think they will use during a "normally busy" period is what they will do. If they need more, there's always a way to get them. At least, until EVERY PERSON, HOSPITAL and BUSINESS starts buying up the entire nation's stock of masks out of panic.
Over time, these masks can start to become less effective while sitting in storage. If they never get used, it's wasted money and resources.
Prepping is a balancing act. How much of your income do you set aside for buying stuff you will likely never use?
Hind sight is 20/20. Maybe some smart person will invent a reusable mask that is safer and easier to use and clean than what's available now.
The police "take" others' property all the time. It's called collecting evidence.
My issue is that hospitals have lots of money. There are certain items that they should keep a lot of that won't break the bank. And keep them in stock in case supply chains go down for what ever reason, or an influx of users, etc...I don't expect them to have thousands of expensive ventilators. But protective gear like N95,face shields, etc...are cheap. I even expect them to have a good number of radiation suits on hand as well. Not 1 and if they need more, then they have to order them.
This is a hospital that needs to be prepared for many disasters. Not a restaurant who orders inventory weekly. But even food, they should have a bunch of non-perishable food in stock to feed it's patients and staff if SHTF. So I wouldn't call it hind sight.
If I made millions a year, I would have a ton of stuff, just in case I will need it. But I don't make that much, so my preps are limited. Many people bought mask starting in feb. Why didn't the hospitals send someone with a corporate credit card to buy up what was in stock locally at Home Depot, Lowes, etc...The writing was on the wall that these mask will be needed. So it's not my fault they planned poorly. And I hate to say it, but I will keep my PPE for myself and family. No donations to hospitals. I will and have gave some to friends in need.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 01, 2020, 01:14:58 PM
My issue is that hospitals have lots of money. There are certain items that they should keep a lot of that won't break the bank. And keep them in stock in case supply chains go down for what ever reason, or an influx of users, etc...I don't expect them to have thousands of expensive ventilators. But protective gear like N95,face shields, etc...are cheap. I even expect them to have a good number of radiation suits on hand as well. Not 1 and if they need more, then they have to order them.
This is a hospital that needs to be prepared for many disasters. Not a restaurant who orders inventory weekly. But even food, they should have a bunch of non-perishable food in stock to feed it's patients and staff if SHTF. So I wouldn't call it hind sight.
If I made millions a year, I would have a ton of stuff, just in case I will need it. But I don't make that much, so my preps are limited. Many people bought mask starting in feb. Why didn't the hospitals send someone with a corporate credit card to buy up what was in stock locally at Home Depot, Lowes, etc...The writing was on the wall that these mask will be needed. So it's not my fault they planned poorly. And I hate to say it, but I will keep my PPE for myself and family. No donations to hospitals. I will and have gave some to friends in need.
Hospitals take in AND SPEND "lots of money." Their margins are very small. That means they have to make choices as to where any profits are spent.
Yes, healthcare costs could be lower. But that would not necessarily increase margins if the savings were passed on to the insured.
Would you pay an extra 30% for health insurance to go to a pandemic prep fund?
Post by: changemyoil66 on April 01, 2020, 01:27:52 PM
Hospitals take in AND SPEND "lots of money." Their margins are very small. That means they have to make choices as to where any profits are spent.
Yes, healthcare costs could be lower. But that would not necessarily increase margins if the savings were passed on to the insured.
Would you pay an extra 30% for health insurance to go to a pandemic prep fund?
It should already be in their annual budget. No need to add extra percentage charges. I'll be willing to bet that after this is over, there will be an up charge for future pandemics. If retail 1 N95 is $3, why can't they have 10,000 mask in storage. And I'm sure they won't be paying $3 per mask either. The mask also last for years, so if they wanted to, they could spread out the payment of that over a few years and rotate the stock first in, first out.
Post by: drck1000 on April 01, 2020, 01:33:57 PM
It should already be in their annual budget. No need to add extra percentage charges. I'll be willing to bet that after this is over, there will be an up charge for future pandemics. If retail 1 N95 is $3, why can't they have 10,000 mask in storage. And I'm sure they won't be paying $3 per mask either. The mask also last for years, so if they wanted to, they could spread out the payment of that over a few years and rotate the stock first in, first out.From a logistics perspective, also need to factor in the space to store all of that stuff. That’s HUGE! There’s a fine balance. It can be VERY political in the field that I work in. And that is in fights over what various groups deem essential for response. It’s complicated and you’re over simplifying based on what you think is right.
But no worries. Get plenty tin foil :thumbsup:
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 01, 2020, 01:39:58 PM
It should already be in their annual budget. No need to add extra percentage charges. I'll be willing to bet that after this is over, there will be an up charge for future pandemics. If retail 1 N95 is $3, why can't they have 10,000 mask in storage. And I'm sure they won't be paying $3 per mask either. The mask also last for years, so if they wanted to, they could spread out the payment of that over a few years and rotate the stock first in, first out.
Is that your expert analysis?
Northwell Health is New York's largest healthcare provider.
Quote
Northwell Health uses about 20,000 N95 masks a month under normal circumstances.
Now, the system is going through about 25,000 masks a week — a rate dictated by
rationing, said spokesperson Terry Lynam.
So, your 10,000 mask "stockpile" would have lasted less than 3 days.
https://www.politico.com/states/new-york/albany/story/2020/03/31/everybodys-in-the-same-boat-coronavirus-drives-new-yorks-hospitals-to-breaking-point-1269943
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 01, 2020, 01:47:11 PM
From a logistics perspective, also need to factor in the space to store all of that stuff. That’s HUGE! There’s a fine balance. It can be VERY political in the field that I work in. And that is in fights over what various groups deem essential for response. It’s complicated and you’re over simplifying based on what you think is right.
But no worries. Get plenty tin foil :thumbsup:
After living in Hawaii, if you don't have a deeper understanding and appreciation of the sheer cost of warehouse space, then you aren't paying attention.
Masks might be able to last for years in storage, or they might not. Many factors affect that, including materials, packaging, and environmental. Environmental controls needed to protect supplies from heat, cold, moisture, rodents, insects, people (thieves), etc. That's a major investment in real estate, air quality control, temp control and year-round maintenance. "Sorry. We can't afford to fix our 2nd MRI machine because the pandemic warehouse needs new air handlers and duct work."
Post by: changemyoil66 on April 01, 2020, 01:56:32 PM
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 01, 2020, 02:30:48 PM
Good thing tin foil needs no environmental controls. But it is heavy if it's by the palate.
Palate: roof of the mouth.
Pallet: a portable platform on which goods can be moved, stacked, and stored, especially with the aid of a forklift.
Post by: Kuleana on April 01, 2020, 03:46:45 PM
Hospitals take in AND SPEND "lots of money." Their margins are very small. That means they have to make choices as to where any profits are spent.
Yes, healthcare costs could be lower. But that would not necessarily increase margins if the savings were passed on to the insured.
Would you pay an extra 30% for health insurance to go to a pandemic prep fund?
This is the reason capitalism in healthcare is a very short-sighted model. If a hospital exists to make profit, there will be no such things as an emergency pandemic stash of supplies or rainy day fund, since all that capital would be allocated for financial investments to bring more profit to the owners of the hospital.
This situation does make sense for the investors of the hospital, but not in the best interest of the people, as evidenced today.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 01, 2020, 06:32:03 PM
This is the reason capitalism in healthcare is a very short-sighted model. If a hospital exists to make profit, there will be no such things as an emergency pandemic stash of supplies or rainy day fund, since all that capital would be allocated for financial investments to bring more profit to the owners of the hospital.
This situation does make sense for the investors of the hospital, but not in the best interest of the people, as evidenced today.
Given the fact the US is leading the rest of the nations in developing new tests for the disease that only take 5 minutes versus 5 hours, has exceeded all nations in number of people tested, and have already tested and approved the use of chloroquine phosphate to reduce the severity of the disease in those who test positive, it's a shame you don't get that the system you think is broken remains the one the rest of the world is turning to for hope.
If China had not lied about the virus in the beginning, maybe a few more weeks to a month to prepare would have made the difference. When they say, "Nobody saw this coming," it was half right. Nobody who could have used the time to prepare saw this coming because the Communist Chinese gov't was not transparent about the severity or human-to-human transmission. Had that been known, we'd have reacted more quickly.
It's not the US healthcare system that's a problem. Trump is leaning on those companies to fight this thing, because the gov't doesn't have the top scientists and resources to do that to the same degree.
Everybody is a genius AFTER the facts are out. Holding people to a "you should have predicted all of this" standard in the middle of trying to solve the problem is counterproductive.
Post by: macsak on April 01, 2020, 06:45:29 PM
I don't ONLY post from them.
I just post the most interesting and relevant articles that I randomly see from around the Web.
sorry
MOSTLY
my apologies
Post by: macsak on April 01, 2020, 06:57:17 PM
Palate: roof of the mouth.
Pallet: a portable platform on which goods can be moved, stacked, and stored, especially with the aid of a forklift.
heads
Post by: macsak on April 01, 2020, 07:05:49 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKmsqn0cOjI
when I shut my office last week Monday on the mayor's order, I donated 2 boxes of type III surgical masks, a case of gloves, a case of 4x4 gauze, a case of disposable gowns, and a case of cavicide (the cleaner you wipe surfaces with) to queen's ICU
not a real doctor type stuff, but my receptionist's daughter's boyfriend was proud to bring them in (he's an ICU nurse) and they were happy to receive them
and I brought 3 boxes of type III masks and a case of gloves to a forum member who is a firefighter/paramedic who has a pregnant wife at home...
also sent my staff home with boxes of masks, gloves, alcohol, peroxide, Lysol spray, chlorox wipes, and TP
Post by: Kuleana on April 01, 2020, 07:18:32 PM
First, it is too early to tell how effective the new tests and treatments will be. Second, the rest of the World is not waiting for America to do anything, but are trying to tackle things on their own. Third, those nations that are waiting for the US are those who do not have the resources to anything at all. Do you think really Spain and Italy are simply counting the dead or dying and waiting for the US to help them? If anything, it is Russia and China that's been helping Europe recently.
"If China had not lied about the virus in the beginning, maybe a few more weeks to a month to prepare would have made the difference. When they say, "Nobody saw this coming," it was half right. Nobody who could have used the time to prepare saw this coming because the Communist Chinese gov't was not transparent about the severity or human-to-human transmission. Had that been known, we'd have reacted more quickly."
I don't think China intentionally lied about anything. If they are guilty, they are guilty of not reporting fast enough; but this may be because they, themselves, did not know what they were up against, until it was way too late for even them.
"It's not the US healthcare system that's a problem. Trump is leaning on those companies to fight this thing, because the gov't doesn't have the top scientists and resources to do that to the same degree."
Do try to defend the incompetence of the CDC and the greed of many medical centers for their ill-preparedness. Domestically, the US healthcare system IS directly responsible for this catastrophe. Is it not their job to have been contemplating and preparing for this kind of pandemic?
As for not having the top scientists and resources like you mentioned, maybe America's budget needs to cut back on things like its military spending and divert those funds to higher education and public health.
Post by: Kuleana on April 01, 2020, 07:22:13 PM
when I shut my office last week Monday on the mayor's order, I donated 2 boxes of type III surgical masks, a case of gloves, a case of 4x4 gauze, a case of disposable gowns, and a case of cavicide (the cleaner you wipe surfaces with) to queen's ICU
not a real doctor type stuff, but my receptionist's daughter's boyfriend was proud to bring them in (he's an ICU nurse) and they were happy to receive them
and I brought 3 boxes of type III masks and a case of gloves to a forum member who is a firefighter/paramedic who has a pregnant wife at home...
also sent my staff home with boxes of masks, gloves, alcohol, peroxide, Lysol spray, chlorox wipes, and TP
Very kind and generous of you Dr. Macsak.
I only hope others in your profession have put greed aside for the greater good.
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:
Post by: macsak on April 01, 2020, 07:28:51 PM
Very kind and generous of you Dr. Macsak.
I only hope others in your profession have put greed aside for the greater good.
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:
#notarealdoctor
I can only control what I do, I told my closest professional friends in our text group, and emailed my study club
my hygienist wanted me to issue a challenge to all dentites, but that's not my style...
Post by: Kuleana on April 01, 2020, 07:34:09 PM
#notarealdoctor
I beg to differ.
As a practicing dentist, you must possess a DDS or DMD; hence, you do command the title of doctor with all rights, duties, and privileges, thereof. :thumbsup:
Post by: changemyoil66 on April 01, 2020, 08:46:49 PM
I beg to differ.Phhhhhheeeewwwwww that flew right over head.
As a practicing dentist, you must possess a DDS or DMD; hence, you do command the title of doctor with all rights, duties, and privileges, thereof.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 01, 2020, 08:58:37 PM
"Given the fact the US is leading the rest of the nations in developing new tests for the disease that only take 5 minutes versus 5 hours, has exceeded all nations in number of people tested, and have already tested and approved the use of chloroquine phosphate to reduce the severity of the disease in those who test positive, it's a shame you don't get that the system you think is broken remains the one the rest of the world is turning to for hope."
First, it is too early to tell how effective the new tests and treatments will be. Second, the rest of the World is not waiting for America to do anything, but are trying to tackle things on their own. Third, those nations that are waiting for the US are those who do not have the resources to anything at all. Do you think really Spain and Italy are simply counting the dead or dying and waiting for the US to help them? If anything, it is Russia and China that's been helping Europe recently.
Show me where I said anyone is waiting. I said they are looking to the US and our health professionals for hope, because they have not had any breakthroughs yet. We piggybacked on their work to approve antimalarials for treatment. Just stop putting words in my "keyboard" I never typed.
"If China had not lied about the virus in the beginning, maybe a few more weeks to a month to prepare would have made the difference. When they say, "Nobody saw this coming," it was half right. Nobody who could have used the time to prepare saw this coming because the Communist Chinese gov't was not transparent about the severity or human-to-human transmission. Had that been known, we'd have reacted more quickly."
I don't think China intentionally lied about anything. If they are guilty, they are guilty of not reporting fast enough; but this may be because they, themselves, did not know what they were up against, until it was way too late for even them.
Well, then you'd be wrong.
#ChinaLiedPeopleDied. Here's the Proof | The News & Why It Matters | Ep 504
https://youtu.be/SyY75dLBpdU
"It's not the US healthcare system that's a problem. Trump is leaning on those companies to fight this thing, because the gov't doesn't have the top scientists and resources to do that to the same degree."
Do try to defend the incompetence of the CDC and the greed of many medical centers for their ill-preparedness. Domestically, the US healthcare system IS directly responsible for this catastrophe. Is it not their job to have been contemplating and preparing for this kind of pandemic?
As for not having the top scientists and resources like you mentioned, maybe America's budget needs to cut back on things like its military spending and divert those funds to higher education and public health.
:sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 01, 2020, 09:10:18 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says