2aHawaii
General Topics => Political Discussion => Topic started by: matt0137 on April 24, 2020, 05:42:49 PM
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Please come down to the capitol on May 1st at noon to protest the lockdown of Hawaii and get Ige/Caldwell to ReOpen Hawaii.
For those of you on Facebook, there's a lot more information if you join one of the groups coordinating the event. Three are named "ReOpen Hawaii" and another "AR2 Hawaii". All of them will have information and I encourage everyone to join one or all of them. The group I created can be found here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1158891071126420/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1158891071126420/)
We need our "rulers" to hear from the citizens that we will not allow our constitutional rights to be trampled any longer. I've got to believe most members of this forum know what it's like to have your constitutional rights questioned feels like.
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Please come down to the capitol on May 1st at noon to protest the lockdown of Hawaii and get Ige/Caldwell to ReOpen Hawaii.
For those of you on Facebook, there's a lot more information if you join one of the groups coordinating the event. Three are named "ReOpen Hawaii" and another "AR2 Hawaii". All of them will have information and I encourage everyone to join one or all of them. The group I created can be found here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1158891071126420/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1158891071126420/)
We need our "rulers" to hear from the citizens that we will not allow our constitutional rights to be trampled any longer. I've got to believe most members of this forum know what it's like to have your constitutional rights questioned feels like.
Aloha Matt,
I rejoice in your zeal in exercising your 1st Amendment right in expressing your view on the immediate reopening of Hawaii on the grounds of the capitol due to the current Covid-19 pandemic. There have been many on this forum who sincerely share your view and I am confident those residing on this island will try to make time to join your rally.
Just a word of advice, which I am sure you must have already contemplated. I sincerely hope those who join your rally will make an effort not to make it sound like the entire 2nd Amendment community is in 100% agreement with this stance. There are some in this forum who are a little more cautious in lieu of an immediate reopening of the island for business and probably many more outside of those who support the 2nd Amendment. Hence, it would not be in the political interest of the pro-gun community to be completely associated with the reopen Hawaii movement, which is two separate issues entirely. Moreover, there may be many anti-gun supporters in the reopen Hawaii movement that I am sure you would not want to be seen, as their supporters as well.
Other than that, I wish you luck and have a great rally! :shaka:
Kuleana
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In the thousands of comments/posts I've read in my group and all the others, I have yet to see anyone include any type of "Pro-2a" aspect to this rally or even mention gun rights at all.
I'm trying to let as many people as I can know about the rally and my reason for posting here is that I figured there would be other members like myself who are against the current actions by Ige/Caldwell. Pro 2A people know all to well what it's like to have the government trample on your constitutional rights and this shutdown is another example of that. That's why I put this under the "Political Discussion" heading instead of something related to gun rights specifically. I'm sure there are members of this forum against opening up the economy and they won't be attending the rally which is fine. I'm not trying to gain any type of endorsement from any pro-gun rights group nor am I trying to speak on behalf of any group. Plus, I'm sure you're right that there are plenty of anti-gun people in this movement. I wouldn't know exactly because that's not a topic being discussed from what I've seen.
I don't know of any particular person or entity taking credit as the a sole organizer or figurehead of this rally because it's been a grassroots effort, but if there is it certainly isn't me. I can't control what people may put on signs or say if a camera is in front of them, but as I mentioned, I don't see anyone making this about gun rights and they shouldn't because it's not about that. I agree with you that this is a separate issue.
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Hard to have a rally with everybody standing 6 ft apart :rofl:
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I doubt the 6' spread will be maintained.
However, the capitol area says its about 1.3 acres. If I assume the building footprint and other obstacles make up about .3 of those acres, you can still fit over 1200 people in the remaining open area and still maintain a 6' distance. :rofl:
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Hard to have a rally with everybody standing 6 ft apart :rofl:
Hawaii is the WORST place to try and impose social distancing. It's difficult to break people of a lifelong habit like hugging, kissing and shaking hands every time they greet someone!
Derived from the traditional Hawaiian honi ihu, a hug and a kiss on the cheek is a common greeting in
Hawaii, whether you’re meeting friends, family or new people. At business meetings, handshakes are
still acceptable.
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Im gonna pass.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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So much negativity towards people who want to go back to work but much more support for a convoy that chased tourists away :thumbsup: :shaka:
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As an American, I support everyone's right to their opinion and beliefs but as a student of economics, I will never understand the visceral hatred many have for tourism - the number one economic driver of the islands. If it were to end, there would be a ripple effect felt by every industry here... except for bankruptcy attorneys - they'd be making a fortune!
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Economic driver? Definitely. But if you follow the tourism money trail you notice how much flows directly offshore vs how much stays here, and the the people who collect that offshore money do not have to live with the associated costs. Those costs are externalized on the local population in the form of increased cost of living aka Paradise Tax. One could argue that a better managed and smaller tourism industry could mean a lot more of that tourism money stays here and as a result we would not have to tax our own citizens to oblivion. It is worth exploring now that we have some time to re-evaluate our position in the world.
I agree we should scale business back up a lot faster pace than we are now, but going too fast has the potential to make meaningless every sacrifice we have endured to this point.
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I agree that a lot of profit flows offshore and that comes down, primarily, to hotels and retail stores (mostly the high-end, fashion type stores). It seems unlikely that Hawaii is going to replicate the demand for brands like Gucci, Prada, etc so that leaves lodging. Short term rentals are a way to keep money circulating in the local economy but that was dealt a heavy blow last August which did nothing but favor the hotel lobby and strengthen their position. I'm not sure where you stand on it, but I saw a lot of the same "anti-tourist" voices complaining about short term rentals, so round and round we go. The hotel lobby won and even more money now funnels straight to them and offshore as you said. If you want to break the back of that lobby, more voices are needed in favor of decentralizing lodging.
Or you could just flat out restrict the number of visitors and keep it all smaller as you said. You are still looking at a massive loss of jobs. It sounds like you're saying that, by keeping the spending local, it will offset. Even using the most aggressive local multiplier in any economic model, you would not come even close to replacing what was lost. You'd also lose a huge check of the tax revenue from that volume of tourists (25% of the general fund comes from tourists) so either expect services to drop and/or taxes to skyrocket and that's all before adding in the loss due to the high unemployment. It would be crippling to the state and everyone here. I know many business owners think they have nothing to do with tourism, but many of your customers may rely on that money for their income. The house painter doesn't get hired if the hotel worker loses their job and has no money to pay for house painting, for example.
So you would have to replace a huge portion of the economy with something else, but that's a pipe dream. You're talking about a government-coordinated effort to attract a whole industry to sprout up or move to Hawaii and that's just not remotely feasible.
I'm glad you agree we need to start opening this economy back up.
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this may be the reason why some states aren't opening anytime soon
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-states/trump-slams-cities-states-seeking-u-s-aid-to-offset-coronavirus-losses-idUSKCN22924N (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-states/trump-slams-cities-states-seeking-u-s-aid-to-offset-coronavirus-losses-idUSKCN22924N)
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I understand the desire to open things back up, at least I think I do. That said, what I hate is the hypocrisy of it all and many/all sides are guilty of that to a certain extent. I know many folks who talk $hit about (insert D or R) politician for their policy and then go and do the same themselves. One example is shaming Dem politicians for not abiding to stay at home order, but then will post on social media running training classes inside a gym with multiple students with justification that they are "social distancing". ::) Give me a break. Just an example of justifying what they want to do while holding others to higher standards.
Anyways, sorry for the rant. . .
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I agree that a lot of profit flows offshore and that comes down, primarily, to hotels and retail stores (mostly the high-end, fashion type stores). It seems unlikely that Hawaii is going to replicate the demand for brands like Gucci, Prada, etc so that leaves lodging. Short term rentals are a way to keep money circulating in the local economy but that was dealt a heavy blow last August which did nothing but favor the hotel lobby and strengthen their position. I'm not sure where you stand on it, but I saw a lot of the same "anti-tourist" voices complaining about short term rentals, so round and round we go. The hotel lobby won and even more money now funnels straight to them and offshore as you said. If you want to break the back of that lobby, more voices are needed in favor of decentralizing lodging.
Or you could just flat out restrict the number of visitors and keep it all smaller as you said. You are still looking at a massive loss of jobs. It sounds like you're saying that, by keeping the spending local, it will offset. Even using the most aggressive local multiplier in any economic model, you would not come even close to replacing what was lost. You'd also lose a huge check of the tax revenue from that volume of tourists (25% of the general fund comes from tourists) so either expect services to drop and/or taxes to skyrocket and that's all before adding in the loss due to the high unemployment. It would be crippling to the state and everyone here. I know many business owners think they have nothing to do with tourism, but many of your customers may rely on that money for their income. The house painter doesn't get hired if the hotel worker loses their job and has no money to pay for house painting, for example.
So you would have to replace a huge portion of the economy with something else, but that's a pipe dream. You're talking about a government-coordinated effort to attract a whole industry to sprout up or move to Hawaii and that's just not remotely feasible.
I'm glad you agree we need to start opening this economy back up.
There is no argument as to the decision to reopen Hawaii's economy. We need to restart business activity as soon as we can. However, such a reopening had its own problems.
First and foremost is the ongoing pandemic of Covid-19, insufficient availability of testing kits, absence of a safe and reliable vaccine, and the lack of credible information of that virus to establish uniform protocols of prevention and treatment. Until these Covid-19 related issues are reasonably addressed, global consumer confidence will be low; thus, influencing peoples choices to spend and corporations decision to invest. Especially in any tourist or non-tourist dominant economy, even if you open for business right now, there just isn't much discretionary income out there, since many have lost their employment due to the Covid-19 shutdown orders. Hawaii's official economy is run by an oligarchic bunch of ultrawealthy that predominantly compromise the tourism, construction, and real estate sectors, whose soft power is clearly seen by the laws passed by the local government that always favor their interests and not the common people. For example, notice how construction was listed as an essential business not effected by the shutdown.
In addition to focusing on tourism, I advocate Hawaii looking at the other major industries in the islands to see whether a complete revamping is in order. For example, Hawaii is an ideal place to grow food and there already exists a number of people who operate in diversified agriculture. Despite the number and revenue generated, however, Hawaii is still dependent on food shipped from the continental US and from Asia. Clearly, something is wrong here and now is a good time for the government and residents to flirt with creative ideas to further expand the agriculture sector, especially when contemplating possible food shortages due to Covid-19.
Another area that many people often brag and overstate is the importance of Hawaii's military spending. Other than contributing to such items like the rental home industry and employing some island residents on its bases, its economic contribution to Hawaii in relation to the amount of land and water it uses is not economically efficient. Moreover, according to the US Small Business Association's Office of Advocacy, Hawaii has not been able to collect much general excise tax revenues because many subcontracted businesses operating in Hawaii's military bases are out-of-state entities that are able to avoid Hawaii's GET in the calculation of their costs (https://advocacy.sba.gov/2019/08/19/hawaiis-general-excise-tax-puts-local-small-business-at-a-disadvantage/) . This leads to many local small businesses unable to win federal contracts, whose earned profits would stay circulated in Hawaii, rather than be exported somewhere else. I advocate the closure of many military assets in Hawaii to be redeveloped for commercial use that will in effect create more opportunities for middle class jobs as well as residential use for more affordable housing.
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I agree that a lot of profit flows offshore and that comes down, primarily, to hotels and retail stores (mostly the high-end, fashion type stores). It seems unlikely that Hawaii is going to replicate the demand for brands like Gucci, Prada, etc so that leaves lodging. Short term rentals are a way to keep money circulating in the local economy but that was dealt a heavy blow last August which did nothing but favor the hotel lobby and strengthen their position. I'm not sure where you stand on it, but I saw a lot of the same "anti-tourist" voices complaining about short term rentals, so round and round we go. The hotel lobby won and even more money now funnels straight to them and offshore as you said. If you want to break the back of that lobby, more voices are needed in favor of decentralizing lodging.
Or you could just flat out restrict the number of visitors and keep it all smaller as you said. You are still looking at a massive loss of jobs. It sounds like you're saying that, by keeping the spending local, it will offset. Even using the most aggressive local multiplier in any economic model, you would not come even close to replacing what was lost. You'd also lose a huge check of the tax revenue from that volume of tourists (25% of the general fund comes from tourists) so either expect services to drop and/or taxes to skyrocket and that's all before adding in the loss due to the high unemployment. It would be crippling to the state and everyone here. I know many business owners think they have nothing to do with tourism, but many of your customers may rely on that money for their income. The house painter doesn't get hired if the hotel worker loses their job and has no money to pay for house painting, for example.
So you would have to replace a huge portion of the economy with something else, but that's a pipe dream. You're talking about a government-coordinated effort to attract a whole industry to sprout up or move to Hawaii and that's just not remotely feasible.
The scenarios you are painting are both extremes. There are a lot of options worth exploring between laissez faire capitalism vs. overregulation and shutting down entire industries. Same with letting people get back to work after a pandemic. The response to the problems has to be responsible and take its cues from what is happening on the ground vs following the dictates of ideology.
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I really held off making a comment on this post,
but after reading the comments, I felt I needed
to make some remarks.
#1 I can't attend, the state demands a 14 day quarantine, if I were to show up.
We lost the freedom to peacefully assemble when Democrats were elected.
#2 I really don't think Rally's do anything, but I know Riots cause change.
#3 I really don't think there is anybody alive in Hawaii today that remembers the Good Ole
days before Europeans wrecked the islands, so I don't really find their fantasies/oral "traditions"
compelling.
#4 I don't like any Tourists. I could care less if they ever came back. The damage that causes is
regrettable. But keep in mind the Democrats in Hawaii caused it. South Dakota didn't shut down.
People are still going to Mt. Rushmore. Nobody is going to Kilauea.
#5 Military is not Hawaii's problem for outrageous housing , food, utilities, taxes, et al costs. Hawaiian elected
officials are. You "guys" have the government YOU voted for.
#6 There is no possibly for improvement in Hawaii's economy as long as we keep electing the people that
put us where we are. You "guys" got the government YOU voted for and I don't think you have sufficient intelligence
to figure that out.
#7 "guys" outnumber people that are reflective, question, and research before coming to a decision. So we here are lost,
do the best you can.
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#6 You "guys" got the government YOU voted for and I don't think you have sufficient intelligence
to figure that out.
#7 "guys" outnumber people that are reflective, question, and research before coming to a decision. So we here are lost,
do the best you can.
Pretty much sums up what happened to California, except it was out of state invaders that screwed it up, and are now the majority. Calif natives tended to be conservative as witness the governors they used to elect.
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Does anybody on this forum honestly believe that we have free and fair elections?
For a long time I thought, since I'm conservative, I'm more likely to be friends with like-minded people who will mostly be conservative and it just seems like more people think the way I do. I don't believe that anymore. The majority of random conversations I have that end up with some amount of political comment, a conservative point of view is expressed. If you look at comments on news articles, they are predominately conservative in an arena where conservatives are less likely to be commenting than more liberal activist types. I'm sorry but I just don't believe it.
With all due respect to robtmc and groveler - your comments are that the people have done it to themselves, but I don't think they did. I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but if the deck is stacked against us from the beginning, no amount of convincing people or arguing through regular channels will do anything. It's going to take a movement more akin to another American Revolution than just making logical arguments online. Make this Friday the start of a movement to break the back of the ruling class here - just my humble suggestion.
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Does anybody on this forum honestly believe that we have free and fair elections?
For a long time I thought, since I'm conservative, I'm more likely to be friends with like-minded people who will mostly be conservative and it just seems like more people think the way I do. I don't believe that anymore. The majority of random conversations I have that end up with some amount of political comment, a conservative point of view is expressed. If you look at comments on news articles, they are predominately conservative in an arena where conservatives are less likely to be commenting than more liberal activist types. I'm sorry but I just don't believe it.
With all due respect to robtmc and groveler - your comments are that the people have done it to themselves, but I don't think they did. I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but if the deck is stacked against us from the beginning, no amount of convincing people or arguing through regular channels will do anything. It's going to take a movement more akin to another American Revolution than just making logical arguments online. Make this Friday the start of a movement to break the back of the ruling class here - just my humble suggestion.
Very good and inspirational comment.
I wish you luck.
From a historical perspective I'd compare you to
the Polish Calvary going against the Wehrmacht.
eg Good guys against the Democrats.
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Does anybody on this forum honestly believe that we have free and fair elections?
For a long time I thought, since I'm conservative, I'm more likely to be friends with like-minded people who will mostly be conservative and it just seems like more people think the way I do. I don't believe that anymore. The majority of random conversations I have that end up with some amount of political comment, a conservative point of view is expressed. If you look at comments on news articles, they are predominately conservative in an arena where conservatives are less likely to be commenting than more liberal activist types. I'm sorry but I just don't believe it.
With all due respect to robtmc and groveler - your comments are that the people have done it to themselves, but I don't think they did. I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but if the deck is stacked against us from the beginning, no amount of convincing people or arguing through regular channels will do anything. It's going to take a movement more akin to another American Revolution than just making logical arguments online. Make this Friday the start of a movement to break the back of the ruling class here - just my humble suggestion.
Not sure what arenas you're referring to, but I've seen the tide change (albeit slow and sporadic) on comments on stuff HNN and KHON are reporting at times. Still super liberal sheep/parrots, but have seen a lot more opposition postings/statements in maybe the last year or so. Particularly in postings on gun control, crime, etc. I general, I think people are fed up with the state of things in Hawaii. Will it lead to wholesale change? No, but I am encouraged by what I've been seeing. Maybe naive or uber optimistic thinking, but I don't think many who know me well could consider super optimistic.
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Why do people Have to join groups on fb just to get information about it? Trying to boost numbers to make it seem like it has more support? Trying to control posts on the group page?
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Why do people Have to join groups on fb just to get information about it? Trying to boost numbers to make it seem like it has more support? Trying to control posts on the group page?
Lack of experience with non-FB options?
Belief that everybody uses FB, thus it's the best place to reach the most people?
There's no single communications service that can reach everybody in a given geographical region, unless you happen to be working at the Civil Defense bunker. :shake:
Until there's a better option, FB has the numbers and offers the simplest apps to get in tough with other FB members. Sharing an event with 10 people can get you 1000 shares or more in a couple of hours.
It would be reasonable to add a newsletter signup on this site for members to opt in for event announcements, legislative news, and other discrete topics of interest. That way people who don't visit very often can get certain notices in a timely manner.
Something like that could easily be added to the signup process or profile settings.
Online tools are only as powerful as the owners are willing and able to make them.
https://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/SMF2.0:News_and_newsletters
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Why do people Have to join groups on fb just to get information about it? Trying to boost numbers to make it seem like it has more support? Trying to control posts on the group page?
I posted here more than a week ago and not a single response. I posted again with the date/time for the rally. If joining FB was mandatory to get information, I wouldn't have put the details here would I? And what's the intent of your comment about trying to control posts? You trying to call me out for letting people know about a rally at the capitol?
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I posted here more than a week ago and not a single response. I posted again with the date/time for the rally. If joining FB was mandatory to get information, I wouldn't have put the details here would I? And what's the intent of your comment about trying to control posts? You trying to call me out for letting people know about a rally at the capitol?
Reading his post, I just see a question as to why he has to JOIN THE GROUP to read about the events.
The answer as far as I know is some groups on FB make them closed, so they can control who can make comments, see who else is a member, etc. Too many trolls on FB like to disrupt groups. Controlling who can and can't have access to the group's info is a management decision. And, if they do let a disrupter in, they can kick them out.
It might be inconvenient for everyone to have to join, but that's what the event/group organizers decided. Not so much about forcing the numbers up as keeping order.
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there's a lot more information if you join one of the groups.
Why
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I do not do Facebook. I want to make sure the CIA/NSA has to get a FISA letter to keep tabs on my political activity. FB tied straight into their mainframe. Same with Gmail.
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Why
...because it's impossible to duplicate hundreds of posts and several thousand comments and there are several other groups working towards the same goal as well. I put the day/time/location and reason for the protest in the post above. It was not some big conspiracy to get you to be on a FB page.
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What’s so hard about making the groups open? Are they trying to censor what’s said in group? Trying to boost numbers and make it seem like there are more supporters?
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What’s so hard about making the groups open? Are they trying to censor what’s said in group? Trying to boost numbers and make it seem like there are more supporters?
It's not a difficult concept.
In an open group, comments made there can show up in your newsfeed for everyone (based on newsfeed privacy settings) to see.
For a controversial issue like gun control, you might not want everything you and the others post in the group to be displayed on your newsfeed.
For example, if your boss is a "friend" on FB, and he or she disagrees with gun rights groups protesting against "common sense" laws, it could be a problem if he/she sees your comments from the group.
Basically, comments made in the group do not stay in the group when it's open. People who have a problem with that might be less comfortable posting to the group.
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What’s so hard about making the groups open? Are they trying to censor what’s said in group? Trying to boost numbers and make it seem like there are more supporters?
Trolls. In a closed group, they can be blocked and comments deleted.
The purpose of the group is to strategize and plan an event, not get into constant debate or have the issue hijacked constantly.
Case in point - this thread was started to let everyone know about about a rally to protest tyranny and is now about Facebook rules and protocol.
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Ok it’s a closed group so that they can censor. Cool. You encourage us to join the group but get all upset when i ask a few questions about joining? Relax.
I would assume you’d be happy to explain and debate to help get people get on board with your cause. Seems like you just want blind followers. Do you even know what you really want out of this all or are you just blindly following too?
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Ok it’s a closed group so that they can censor. Cool. You encourage us to join the group but get all upset when i ask a few questions about joining? Relax.
I would assume you’d be happy to explain and debate to help get people get on board with your cause. Seems like you just want blind followers. Do you even know what you really want out of this all or are you just blindly following too?
"Please come down to the capitol on May 1st at noon to protest the lockdown of Hawaii and get Ige/Caldwell to ReOpen Hawaii."
Pretty simple.
No need to join any group.
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"Please come down to the capitol on May 1st at noon to protest the lockdown of Hawaii and get Ige/Caldwell to ReOpen Hawaii."
Pretty simple.
No need to join any group.
You're absolutely correct.
I wasn't trying to make it complicated. I just added that, if anyone wanted, they could get more information and join with others on the FB group. Nobody had to join any group and all are welcome. I am expecting a large turnout based on the passion I'm seeing from members. I hope many people on this forum see the benefit in coming down to the capitol tomorrow.
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"I wasn't trying to make it complicated. I just added that, if anyone wanted, they could "...... T M I :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
GL w/ rally, event, protest, expression of 1a rights :thumbsup:
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Not seeing anything in the news, but that is the same experience of the 2a rally.
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This made the live update from HNN. Was reported as a "protest". . .
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Huntington Beach and others in CA were pretty huge. Surprising for CA.
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This made the live update from HNN. Was reported as a "protest". . .
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2020/05/01/more-than-protesters-turn-out-state-capitol-protest-stay-at-home-order/
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2020/04/19/dozens-gather-honolulu-protest-statewide-shutdown/
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Hey Matt, please tell me you weren't one of those who got arrested.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2020/05/01/breaking-news/arrests-made-at-reopen-hawaii-rally-in-front-of-state-capitol/
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Hey Matt, please tell me you weren't one of those who got arrested.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2020/05/01/breaking-news/arrests-made-at-reopen-hawaii-rally-in-front-of-state-capitol/
Not me. I was running about 10 minutes late and the guy in the photo was being arrested as I was walking up. The article says 5 citations - that's not true. They were handing them out like candy.
I took my 13 year old son with me and my wife made me promise to not get arrested and leave him alone there. She didn't want to have to come pick him up. :)
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Matt, I know a lot of the guys here have been weirdly difficult to you for throwing the event together but I’d like to thank you for showing up and giving a shit and doing something productive instead of just bitching about Hawaii’s problems.
Keep up the good work.
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Theres a vid on HHH IG page. "You guys would have arrested Anne Frank".
The comments are mainly haole go home and stuff like that on the IG. Same people who didnt call out any of their friends for going on vacation in feb and march.
I remember when the gov forced Japs into camps in the name of national security. They had little time to sell their homes and other belongings. White neighbors would say "sign the title to us, we will look after your home". Only to come back to no home.
History is repeating itself. Fear is a powerful tool to remove rights.
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https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2020/05/01/lawmakers-tour-airport-find-loopholes-mandatory-quarantine/ (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2020/05/01/lawmakers-tour-airport-find-loopholes-mandatory-quarantine/)
So what's the crime here?
If you are not infected you are assumed so and a US citizen forced to stay in a hotel for 2 weeks. No means to gather food. Food must be brought to you - just like in prison. And local people are OK with this? How would you feel if you went to Vegas? Oh...yeah, you won't mind cuz govt. telling you WHAT YOU MUST DO. You have no rights and you did no crime.
The surprising part is that ALL of our lawmakers don't see anything wrong with this - including our lone Republican Kurt Favella.
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If you are not infected you are assumed so and a US citizen forced to stay in a hotel for 2 weeks.
That is the point though.
Unless everyone has been screened for Covid-19, no one knows if they are infected or not. Hence, the conservative approach for public health would be to assume everyone is potentially infected and go from there.
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Matt, I know a lot of the guys here have been weirdly difficult to you for throwing the event together but I’d like to thank you for showing up and giving a shit and doing something productive instead of just bitching about Hawaii’s problems.
Keep up the good work.
Really? He stirs the pot but when it comes down to it he conveniently shows up late then uses his kid and wife as an excuse to not get arrested. Not exactly what I think of as "good work."
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That is the point though.
Unless everyone has been screened for Covid-19, no one knows if they are infected or not. Hence, the conservative approach for public health would be to assume everyone is potentially infected and go from there.
They did the same thing to Japanese Americans.
Where's Mazie?
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Really? He stirs the pot but when it comes down to it he conveniently shows up late then uses his kid and wife as an excuse to not get arrested. Not exactly what I think of as "good work."
Is this a joke, or are you seriously this big of a douchebag?
Direjackalope - thank you for the support. I'm not the head of this movement by any means - just one person who cares out of many and I'm sure there will be more rallies planned, but I'm not sure when. Doubt I'll be posting anything about it here, though.
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They did the same thing to Japanese Americans.
Where's Mazie?
History is repeating itself.
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Is this a joke, or are you seriously this big of a douchebag?
Direjackalope - thank you for the support. I'm not the head of this movement by any means - just one person who cares out of many and I'm sure there will be more rallies planned, but I'm not sure when. Doubt I'll be posting anything about it here, though.
Hasn’t anybody ever told you never to read the comment section? Some people would complain about free money because it wasn’t clean enough. I like hearing about fellow citizens standing up for all their rights, not just 2a.
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Is this a joke, or are you seriously this big of a douchebag
I ain't the one using a child as an excuse.
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They did the same thing to Japanese Americans.
Where's Mazie?
What America did to the Japanese Americans during WWII was nothing but another despicable act of racism against Asians, as German and Italian Americans were not subjected to the same treatment. The Japanese Americans should have seen some sort of racist law coming after Pearl Harbor, as the Chinese Exclusion Act was still law in the US and only ended in 1943 when China became a US ally against Imperial Japan.
In any case, your use of Japanese American internment is not a valid comparison to the Covid-19 shutdowns. During WWII, the US willingly choose Japanese Americans to be deprived of their lives, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness by ethnicity, whereas the partial shutdown of America only discriminated against those in jobs deemed non-essential.
As to where is Mazie; somewhere getting her kickback from the ultrawealthy for her voting for the latest trillion dollar Covid-19 bailout.
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What is the definition of essential?
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What is the definition of essential?
You need to ask Trump and/or the CDC for that answer.
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That is the point though.
Unless everyone has been screened for Covid-19, no one knows if they are infected or not. Hence, the conservative approach for public health would be to assume everyone is potentially infected and go from there.
We should screen everybody for any type of deadly contagious disease and then indefinitely incarcerate them. Because "safety"
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We should screen everybody for any type of deadly contagious disease and then indefinitely incarcerate them. Because "safety"
If someone is walking around with some kind of highly contagious and deadly pathogen that the human species has never encountered before and, at least, has yet to find out how to accurately identify it, know the many ways it can be transmitted, and how it can be prevented, then I reluctantly have to say that person should be in temporary quarantine in the name of public safety.
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If someone is walking around with some kind of highly contagious and deadly pathogen that the human species has never encountered before and, at least, has yet to find out how to accurately identify it, know the many ways it can be transmitted, and how it can be prevented, then I reluctantly have to say that person should be in temporary quarantine in the name of public safety.
But how do u know? Schroedingers cat.
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But how do u know? Schroedingers cat.
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We need universal household testing to be conducted by accurate Covid-19 testing kits that should have been earmarked funded by the recent trillion dollar bailout.
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But how do u know? Schroedingers cat.
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Do you tap on the breaks when someone looks like they might not stop at an intersection you're about to enter -- even though you have the right of way?
Why would you do such a thing? You're allowing that stranger to take away your societal and legal right to travel there. And if he hits your car, he's liable for the damages (even though the odds in Hawaii of him driving without insurance are astronomical!).
Maybe it has to do with the fact you're trained to recognize a potential threat that hasn't even threatened you yet. You're AVOIDING the potential outcome by tapping your breaks, even though you know the other person will likely stop, since they legally must yield the right of way to you.
It's about understanding that the consequences of the other person not stopping, as small as that probability may be, are much more serious than the consequences of you slowing your roll, even though you're going to be late to the anti-lockdown rally.
And, if you think you tapping your breaks only causes you problems, look at the 8 cars behind you almost rear-ending each other and giving you the digital salute! :wtf:
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Quarantine the sick and infected, not the healthy
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Quarantine the sick and infected, not the healthy
Did you show your support for the ReOpen Hawaii protest by attending yesterday's rally at the capitol?
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I received an email from Hawaii Republican Assembly (HIRA) that it was Hawaii Republican Party (HRP) Finance Committe Chair, Mark Blackburn and Hawai’i GOP Tom Berg that called the police to arrest protesters at the Open Hawaii Rally on May 1st. Anyone know if this is this true?
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Just an observation here......
It seems like this protest was really unnecessary.
The numbers are flat and the mayor and gov have begun a gradual reopening process.
If I were the mayor or governor, that's exactly what I would do.
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Just an observation here......
OPEN KHSC
If I were the mayor or governor, that's exactly what I would do.
Fixed it for ya' :thumbsup:
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Fixed it for ya' :thumbsup:
....
Thanks
That seems like a no-brainer.
In the 40 years I've been shooting at khsc the only people I've hugged were pretty girls.
I don't go there to cozy up to sweaty overweight dudes.
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What authority is the governor and mayors using to close businesses, stay at home order, and restricting rights? I couldn't find anything in the Hawaii Constitution. The governor didn't turn over power to the military for martial law. The governor doesn't have the power to override the US Constitution. Was there any details brought up by the AG before?
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What authority is the governor and mayors using to close businesses, stay at home order, and restricting rights? I couldn't find anything in the Hawaii Constitution. The governor didn't turn over power to the military for martial law. The governor doesn't have the power to override the US Constitution. Was there any details brought up by the AG before?
....
These are good questions. The legislature should work on that next year....
No wait, bad idea :rofl:
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What authority is the governor and mayors using to close businesses, stay at home order, and restricting rights? I couldn't find anything in the Hawaii Constitution. The governor didn't turn over power to the military for martial law. The governor doesn't have the power to override the US Constitution. Was there any details brought up by the AG before?
It's not a Hawaii issue. It involves all states and whether the orders to stay home or close businesses are Constitutional.
https://youtu.be/bI1Zd_drrmc
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I saw some coverage of the rally. A hundred people is a lot and it probably brought out some reasonable citizens with rational demands, but the coverage really focused on the Magamuffins half of whom are clearly out to space. An anti government protest organized on Facebook was my first clue that this was not an assembly of mensa candidates. They actually made me feel a little sympathetic for HPD. We are almost out of the woods people. Don't screw this up.
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The reality of the situation is that there is no model to follow therefore nobody really knows what is right or wrong.
The best analogy I can think of is handloading for a new caliber. You do some research and make an educated guess.
But you always start low and work up until the brass or primer shows signs of excess pressure.
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What authority is the governor and mayors using to close businesses, stay at home order, and restricting rights? I couldn't find anything in the Hawaii Constitution. The governor didn't turn over power to the military for martial law. The governor doesn't have the power to override the US Constitution. Was there any details brought up by the AG before?
As far as I can understand it, a declaration of a state of emergency only allows the govenor to suspend laws. Not make new laws without due process. I don't believe that they are legally able to suspend the first amendment or any other right. I'm not a lawyer though. Hopefully these actions spawns true consequences for politicians that use emergency to grab tyrannical power.
One thing it does, it finnaly proves that government no longer considers themselves servants of the people. Hopefully that wakes people up.
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The state code of Hawaii grants the governor and, in certain cases, mayors broad emergency management powers.
Section 127A-12 of the code allows the governor or any mayor to “restrict the congregation of the public in stricken
or dangerous areas or under dangerous conditions.” They may also direct and control the “non-compulsory evacuation
of the civilian population.”
Once a state of emergency has been declared, Section 127A-13 goes further still and allows the governor to “require
the quarantine or segregation of persons who are affected with or believed to have been exposed” to any communicable
disease that is, according to the governor, “dangerous to the public health and safety.” The governor may also designate
as public nuisances any conduct that is “dangerous to the public health.”
The governor’s powers extend even further than those two functions, however. Section 127A-13 endows the governor
with the abilities to suspend any law that “impedes or tends to impede” the execution of emergency functions and to
“direct and control the mandatory evacuation of the civilian population.”
The statute grants Hawaii mayors similarly broad authority during a local state of emergency, including the power to suspend
any county law that “impedes or tends to impede” the execution of emergency functions and to also “direct and control the
mandatory evacuation of the civilian population.”
Chapter 325 of the Hawaii state code specifically addresses communicable diseases, with Section 325-8 detailing the
procedures for the quarantine of infected individuals. In order to quarantine an individual, the Department of Health must
obtain a written, ex parte order from the state circuit court with jurisdiction over the individual’s residence. The court may
grant the order upon finding that probable cause exists to justify the quarantine. The department must provide a copy of
the order to the individual and notify them of their right to a hearing if they wish to contest the order.
That procedure may be suspended if “any delay in the quarantine of the individual would pose an immediate threat to the
public health.” Following such a quarantine, the Department of Health must immediately obtain an ex parte order from the
relevant court retroactively authorizing the procedure.
Individuals who wish to exercise their right to a hearing must file a written request with the court that issued the subpoena.
The hearing will be held within 14 days of that filing, but such a request will not lift the restrictions of the quarantine. At the
hearing itself, the Department of Health must demonstrate with clear and convincing evidence that the quarantine is justified
for the court to continue its order.
All individuals subject to quarantine must stay within the designated premises and not come into contact with anyone other
than a health care provider. Violating that restriction is a misdemeanor offense. Moreover, no one is allowed to enter the quarantine
premises without permission from the Department of Health. Anyone who enters a quarantine premises without permission is
also subject to quarantine and has also committed a misdemeanor offense. Additionally, Section 325-2 requires that all medical
professionals treating patients with confirmed or suspected cases of a dangerous disease must report the incidence to the Department
of Health. Failure to report may result in a fine of up to $1,000.
The Department of Health must provide the quarantined individual with food, clothing, medication, access to counsel, the ability to
communicate with the outside world and competent medical care. The department must also consider the individual’s cultural and
religious beliefs “to the greatest extent possible.”
Section 325-9 allows for the Department of Health to quarantine a person in the home in which they reside if the department determines
that removing the person from their home would endanger their life or the health of the department’s agents. In such a case, the
department may remove the residents of the surrounding neighborhood and take “any such other measures” that it deems necessary
for the public health and safety. All local law enforcement officers are required to assist department officials in this process.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/quarantine-and-isolation-authorities-states-affected-covid-19#Hawaii
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0127A/HRS_0127A-0012.htm
§127A-13 Additional powers in an emergency period. (a) In the event of a state of emergency declared by the governor pursuant to
section 127A-14, the governor may exercise the following additional powers pertaining to emergency management during the emergency
period:
(1) Provide for and require the quarantine or segregation of persons who are affected with or believed to have been exposed to any
infectious, communicable, or other disease that is, in the governor's opinion, dangerous to the public health and safety, or persons who
are the source of other contamination, in any case where, in the governor's opinion, the existing laws are not adequate to assure the public
health and safety; provide for the care and treatment of the persons; supplement the provisions of sections 325-32 to 325-38 concerning
compulsory immunization programs; provide for the isolation or closing of property which is a source of contamination or is in a dangerous
condition in any case where, in the governor's opinion, the existing laws are not adequate to assure the public health and safety, and designate
as public nuisances acts, practices, conduct, or conditions that are dangerous to the public health or safety or to property; authorize that public
nuisances be summarily abated and, if need be, that the property be destroyed, by any police officer or authorized person, or provide for the
cleansing or repair of property, and if the cleansing or repair is to be at the expense of the owner, the procedure therefor shall follow as nearly
as may be the provisions of section 322-2, which shall be applicable; and further, authorize without the permission of the owners or occupants,
entry on private premises for any such purposes;
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0127A/HRS_0127A-0013.htm
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I saw some coverage of the rally. A hundred people is a lot and it probably brought out some reasonable citizens with rational demands, but the coverage really focused on the Magamuffins half of whom are clearly out to space. An anti government protest organized on Facebook was my first clue that this was not an assembly of mensa candidates. They actually made me feel a little sympathetic for HPD. We are almost out of the woods people. Don't screw this up.
The rally was coordinated in about a week's time and we had somewhere around 150 people attending. I know that's not packed, but considering the timeline, I was pretty happy with it. I'm not sure how many candidates there were, but I'm a member of Mensa myself and was able to use FB effectively to get this done. I'm not sure why the need for the derogatory comments directed towards people trying to fight for our constitutional rights.
I know some organizations that have been around for years that can't get more than a handful to the capitol for a rally. ;)
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https://www.lawfareblog.com/quarantine-and-isolation-authorities-states-affected-covid-19#Hawaii
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0127A/HRS_0127A-0012.htm
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0127A/HRS_0127A-0013.htm
So nothing in the constitution, which would still override these laws which aren't even being followed. The Constitution overrides laws, laws cannot override the Constitution. Sounds like government tyranny to me.
I can forsee the day when Trump turns off the Federal money spigot, the State has to fight thousands of lawsuits, and Hawaii will have declare bankruptcy. This would be the only way to get Hawaii to seriously change their attitude, diversify the economy, and reset contracts with the public unions.
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So nothing in the constitution, which would still override these laws which aren't even being followed. The Constitution overrides laws, laws cannot override the Constitution. Sounds like government tyranny to me.
I can forsee the day when Trump turns off the Federal money spigot, the State has to fight thousands of lawsuits, and Hawaii will have declare bankruptcy. This would be the only way to get Hawaii to seriously change their attitude, diversify the economy, and reset contracts with the public unions.
If you watched the Lehto's Law video I posted a link for, you'll notice that the standard is not as you stated.
States have the legal ability to infringe on your Constitutional rights if (1) they have a rational explanation/reason for it, and (2) the harm it causes is less than the good it is intended to create for society at large.
The example he used was incarceration. Everyone in prison is having their Constitutionally-protected freedom taken away, but the state's duty to keep law abiding citizens safe from criminals carries more weight.
As we are all reminded all the time, Constitutional Rights are not absolute. Limits and even violations are legal in certain cases.
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I'm not sure why the need for the derogatory comments directed towards people trying to fight for our constitutional rights.
I know some organizations that have been around for years that can't get more than a handful to the capitol for a rally. ;)
What was the definition of derogatory?
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So nothing in the constitution, which would still override these laws which aren't even being followed. The Constitution overrides laws, laws cannot override the Constitution. Sounds like government tyranny to me.
The US government has been violating and eroding the US Constitution and Bill of Rights for a long time. The US Constitution is the blueprint for the American Republic, but any deviation or abrogation of it, transforms the US to what it is unfortunately today, the American Empire. Hence, no one should be surprised by the acts of tyranny by the US government you see today either domestically to its own citizens or internationally to other sovereign nations.
I can forsee the day when Trump turns off the Federal money spigot, the State has to fight thousands of lawsuits, and Hawaii will have declare bankruptcy. This would be the only way to get Hawaii to seriously change their attitude, diversify the economy, and reset contracts with the public unions.
If Hawaii ever declares bankruptcy, it is likely the case will be the same with many other states in the US. Moreover, if the US reaches that point of insolvency, no amount of money printing will save the US. The US will either start a world war, have a civil war, or balkanize.
Any type of war would be the end of us all; hence, there is nothing one can do, if that happens. However, if the US starts to balkanize, it behooves individual states to prepare to becoming their own nation state that would legally be internationally recognized by the other nations of the World. This is where the Republic of Hawaii and the Republic of Texas would legally have a head start.
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Why do you insert your comments into other people's quotes?
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Why do you insert your comments into other people's quotes?
To make it easier for readers to see the context of what I am responding to.
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If you watched the Lehto's Law video I posted a link for, you'll notice that the standard is not as you stated.
States have the legal ability to infringe on your Constitutional rights if (1) they have a rational explanation/reason for it, and (2) the harm it causes is less than the good it is intended to create for society at large.
The example he used was incarceration. Everyone in prison is having their Constitutionally-protected freedom taken away, but the state's duty to keep law abiding citizens safe from criminals carries more weight.
As we are all reminded all the time, Constitutional Rights are not absolute. Limits and even violations are legal in certain cases.
Oh. Well good. Now that we know that what really matters is that they have good "intentions", we should all approve a ban on civilian ownership of firearms, etc., as they have rolled out "study" after "study" demonstrating the harm civilian firearm ownership causes.
I have to admit, however, that I don't have "good intentions" for those politicians and judges and civilians who buy those lines of crap.
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I read that Venezuela is doing real good with socialism...
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The rally was coordinated in about a week's time and we had somewhere around 150 people attending. I know that's not packed, but considering the timeline, I was pretty happy with it. I'm not sure how many candidates there were, but I'm a member of Mensa myself and was able to use FB effectively to get this done. I'm not sure why the need for the derogatory comments directed towards people trying to fight for our constitutional rights.
I know some organizations that have been around for years that can't get more than a handful to the capitol for a rally. ;)
If you are a Mensa member and organized an anti-government protest on Facebook now it really arouses my suspicions. You got a hundred or so people flagged/watchlisted because you could not be bothered to figure out another medium that does not tie directly into the US surveillance state. Great job if your goal was to get a bunch of voluntarily sign ups for reeducation camp.
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Did you show your support for the ReOpen Hawaii protest by attending yesterday's rally at the capitol?
Did you show your support for the 2A movement by testifying at the capitol?
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Did you show your support for the 2A movement by testifying at the capitol?
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:rofl:
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Did you show your support for the 2A movement by testifying at the capitol?
I donate money to the cause and submit testimony online.
Do you donate money to the Reopen Hawaii Movement and attend Friday's rally?
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Oh. Well good. Now that we know that what really matters is that they have good "intentions", we should all approve a ban on civilian ownership of firearms, etc., as they have rolled out "study" after "study" demonstrating the harm civilian firearm ownership causes.
I have to admit, however, that I don't have "good intentions" for those politicians and judges and civilians who buy those lines of crap.
Since the millions of dead victims from CV-19 never materialized, it could be deduced that the actions the nation and states took worked.
Hard to argue with success. Their actions appear to have worked as intended.
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Hawaii is the subject of a Daily Mail report.
California couple honeymooning in Hawaii arrested for going out to get pizza in violation of 14-day quarantine rules.
https://youtu.be/C2E8yANwnFg
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Since the millions of dead victims from CV-19 never materialized, it could be deduced that the actions the nation and states took worked.
Hard to argue with success. Their actions appear to have worked as intended.
Even you qualify your unfounded assertion of "success" with the words "could be" and "appear". And that's all it is, an "appearance" that "could be" causally connected, not founded in data analysis.
There are numerous analyses available that show that countries, states, counties, and cities around the world that did NOT impose the more draconian measures (isolating the less at risk groups, i;e. non-elderly and those with no associated underlying conditions that would lead to poorer outcomes) of the "stricter" areas had the same or even lower infection and death rates. Plus, we all know that the death rates, in the U.S. at least, are grossly inflated by agencies (CDC and other local entities) declaring that people who test positive for COVID-19 and die are listed as a death attributed to COVID-19. This includes victims of car crashes and other obviously false attributions.
You have no evidence that the more strict measures "worked". No one does. Because there isn't any such clear and convincing evidence.
If you believe those measures are effective, do you then support those measures (stay at home, close businesses, stop all hospital services except emergencies, etc.) being put into place every time there is a flu virus that appears to be more deadly that the usual strains, including those in the past that have killed significantly more than the COVID-19 has? I mean, that would be "good intentions" based upon measures that "could be" effective and "appear" to work?
It's always going to be a "cost/benefit analysis". But that can't be done using bogus numbers and assumptions about causality that are highly likely to be untrue. We could save nearly 40,000 lives per year if we banned any vehicle capable of going over 5 mph... all good people that don't deserve to die. But we don't enact that measure... why?
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Even you qualify your unfounded assertion of "success" with the words "could be" and "appear". And that's all it is, an "appearance" that "could be" causally connected, not founded in data analysis.
There are numerous analyses available that show that countries, states, counties, and cities around the world that did NOT impose the more draconian measures (isolating the less at risk groups, i;e. non-elderly and those with no associated underlying conditions that would lead to poorer outcomes) of the "stricter" areas had the same or even lower infection and death rates. Plus, we all know that the death rates, in the U.S. at least, are grossly inflated by agencies (CDC and other local entities) declaring that people who test positive for COVID-19 and die are listed as a death attributed to COVID-19. This includes victims of car crashes and other obviously false attributions.
You have no evidence that the more strict measures "worked". No one does. Because there isn't any such clear and convincing evidence.
If you believe those measures are effective, do you then support those measures (stay at home, close businesses, stop all hospital services except emergencies, etc.) being put into place every time there is a flu virus that appears to be more deadly that the usual strains, including those in the past that have killed significantly more than the COVID-19 has? I mean, that would be "good intentions" based upon measures that "could be" effective and "appear" to work?
It's always going to be a "cost/benefit analysis". But that can't be done using bogus numbers and assumptions about causality that are highly likely to be untrue. We could save nearly 40,000 lives per year if we banned any vehicle capable of going over 5 mph... all good people that don't deserve to die. But we don't enact that measure... why?
It's too soon to say the places that did not lock down were grand success stories. Some of those places like Sweden, Norway and Denmark are now seeing a rise in cases and deaths.
The differences among Sweden, Norway and Denmark are not significant, Jennifer Kates,
director of global health and HIV policy at the Kaiser Family Foundation, told PolitiFact.
But the total number of confirmed cases is increasing faster in Sweden than in Norway and
Denmark — even though Sweden is doing less testing per 1,000 people than Norway and
Denmark.
Anders Tegnell, the epidemiologist who is credited with developing Sweden’s COVID-19
strategy, says infection rate is an unreliable measure of how a country is doing.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/apr/28/facebook-posts/sweden-mostly-open-has-higher-covid-19-death-rate-/
Your question on driving deaths is obviously weak. A disease has no safety devices, no decision-making process and no failure to act responsibly linked to who is harmed. Diseases can infect anybody -- period. Driving accidents are more often than not the result of bad decisions by one of the accident "victims".
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it's all about power
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMDWep4rD5Q&list=TLPQMDYwNTIwMjAec5TskNKW-w&index=1