2aHawaii
General Topics => Off Topic => Topic started by: Kuleana on April 28, 2020, 08:58:22 AM
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Never thought I would hear it from one of the ultrawealthy themselves. In the following interview, billionaire Warren Buffet offers a couple of suggestions on how to alleviate income inequality in society. He suggests an earned income tax credit for the poor and higher taxes on the ultrawealthy, like himself.
Nothing new in practice, but he is essentially advocating another iteration of a hybrid economic system that is foundationally capitalistic, but with specific socialistic elements.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/warren-buffett-ideas-to-end-inequality-134650421.html
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Never thought I would hear it from one of the ultrawealthy themselves. In the following interview, billionaire Warren Buffet offers a couple of suggestions on how to alleviate income inequality in society. He suggests an earned income tax credit for the poor and higher taxes on the ultrawealthy, like himself.
Nothing new in practice, but he is essentially advocating another iteration of a hybrid economic system that is foundationally capitalistic, but with specific socialistic elements.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/warren-buffett-ideas-to-end-inequality-134650421.html
There will always be inequality of income because there will always be an inequality of production.
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There will always be inequality of income because there will always be an inequality of production.
Inequality is just part of the human condition subject to the law of scarcity. Hence, how humans address inequality has always been the name of the game throughout history.
For generations, it has been argued that subjecting the rich to higher taxes was counterproductive for the economy. However, in the modern era, it is comforting to finally hear someone of the ultrawealthy admit and reaffirm what many have intuitively known all along, that higher taxes for the rich is one of the most strategic solutions to address income inequality.
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There will always be inequality of income because there will always be an inequality of production.
but, but, but, but that's not FAIR!!!
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but, but, but, but that's not FAIR!!!
The issue now is not fairness but instability. When income inequality reaches such obscene levels as we have now then a revolution becomes imminent. WB is a savvy investor with a keen eye of the future who can see the pitchforks and torches gathering while the Bezos, Gates, Musk, and the Waltons are still sucking up our tax money to buy back their own stock and starving their workers like everything is normal.
Where do you think the latest centrally coordinated and extremely well-funded push against gun rights came from? Bloomberg was the head of the worlds largest private army (NYPD) and was privy to the pentagon briefings on civil unrest.
At least Buffet has the good sense to know the hell on earth about to be unleashed by short sighted greed, bad policy, as well as lack of leadership and is trying to stick his finger in the dyke.
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The issue now is not fairness but instability. When income inequality reaches such obscene levels as we have now then a revolution becomes imminent. WB is a savvy investor with a keen eye of the future who can see the pitchforks and torches gathering while the Bezos, Gates, Musk, and the Waltons are still sucking up our tax money to buy back their own stock and starving their workers like everything is normal.
Where do you think the latest centrally coordinated and extremely well-funded push against gun rights came from? Bloomberg was the head of the worlds largest private army (NYPD) and was privy to the pentagon briefings on civil unrest.
At least Buffet has the good sense to know the hell on earth about to be unleashed by short sighted greed, bad policy, as well as lack of leadership and is trying to stick his finger in the dyke.
Excellent point HB, as the US is indeed headed to an armed conflict. The question now is which one? Will it be the remanence of the American republic versus the present fascist American empire or, as Gerald Celente said in an interview I posted yesterday, the US empire versus China, Russia, Iran, DPRK, and/or anyone else that refuses financial vassal status (i.e., adherence to the US petrodollar).
For those siding with the US empire, they have to remember one thing. As with all empires, they will work for complete domination of all nations of the World under any pretense they can find, which is exciting for some. However, empires also demand the same of all its subjects domestically as well. Their rule is absolute and you can bet the rights of man including that of private gun ownership will not be allowed in the American empire.
The foreign and domestic policy of the American empire is one and the same, as with all other empires in history, submission by all...
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The fact that Trump is trying to bring home the troops from Afghanistan is a sign that he knows what is going on. A failing empire is a bomb with many fuses, but at least there are some Americans in power with the good sense to stop doubling down on stupidity.
Meanwhile all the Democrats can say is Russia Russia Russia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-4iOOfgBQo
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Warren Buffet has the FREEDOM and RESOURCES to give as much of his wealth to the needy/poor/unequal/distressed people in any location he desires.
What pisses me off is how he would be the least affected by government wealth redistribution. He has the assets to die after a continued comfortable existence.
The ones hurt by any gov't wealth confiscation are those who fall along the arbitrary demarkation line between "haves" and "have nots". These schemes never work, because no matter how much you take from the 1%, 5% or 10%, it's never going to be enough. The small business owners, parents with double incomes raising a family or building a retirement nest egg, etc. are the ones who will suffer. That's because the people writing the laws are incompetent, greedy and for the most part millionaires. They are not going to take massive amounts of money from a few 1%-level campaign donors when they can take a smaller amount from millions of people and businesses making in the low 6 figures and trying to invest for the future.
Who made a rule that said I have to be guilty about anything I earn for no other reason than there are people who didn't? Why is it the right of the "have nots" to steal from the "haves", but you're greedy to want to keep the wealth you earned?
We live in an economic time where scarcity is not the determining factor for value and access. Facebook was a bunch of ideas and coding rolled out to servers. The infrastructure is already in place (Internet). The servers are already available to buy or lease. All it took was capital, which was easy enough with stock sales. Not bad for a college dorm room project.
Our economy is now services-based, not manufacturing or agrarian like in the past. We trade stocks, bonds and commodities, we buy and sell currencies, we design, write and test software to produce operating systems, apps and web sites, we develop massive data warehouses for a slew of applications, and so on. That's just the tip of the massive iceberg of services in the US. There is UNLIMITED opportunity and access to resources if one merely educates themselves and has a little inspiration to come up with a better way to do things. Hell, people make millions off the next big toy craze every year. Just be first to market, and you can be next.
The wealth accumulates with the people who lead. I see no problem there. If you want to start putting caps on wealth, let's prioritize the products and services people provide from "critical" to "useful" to "entertainment". Movie stars, professional athletes and music entertainers who make millions leveraging their talents should be on the chopping block first. At least someone like Buffet created capital to help start and grow companies and products that have shaped and sustained our country for decades.
The human condition teaches us there will always be poor, hungry and sick. Nothing we do can ever change that. Even Jesus said so.
We are free in the US to give away as much of our property/wealth as we want to help the less fortunate. It's not the gov't's job to play Robbing Hood.
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How come we cant just use the same % across the board?
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How come we cant just use the same % across the board?
Great question. I will take -51% as well.
https://publicintegrity.org/inequality-poverty-opportunity/taxes/trumps-tax-cuts/you-paid-taxes-these-corporations-didnt/
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How come we cant just use the same % across the board?
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The rationale is, when you earn money, it goes for the benefit of your family in the form of rent or mortgage, food, clothing, medical, etc. Basically, that money is spent on consumables.
When a corporation spends money, one of their largest outlays is payroll. That is the money the family in my first sentence gets.
Take away the money from the corporation, and they have less to pay employees.
Their outlays benefit the economy in ways that pure consumption doesn't. Keeping a bread-winner employed keeps that person paying taxes, off of public assistance, etc.
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The rationale is, when you earn money, it goes for the benefit of your family in the form of rent or mortgage, food, clothing, medical, etc. Basically, that money is spent on consumables.
When a corporation spends money, one of their largest outlays is payroll. That is the money the family in my first sentence gets.
Take away the money from the corporation, and they have less to pay employees.
Their outlays benefit the economy in ways that pure consumption doesn't. Keeping a bread-winner employed keeps that person paying taxes, off of public assistance, etc.
That is a great theory, but in real life they pay starvation wages, ship jobs overseas, and encourage employees to go on welfare while using the boon of deregulation and tax cuts to buy back their own stock to make it appear they are healthy even though fundamentals say different. It seems they lost the Henry Ford appreciation for the fact that if employees cannot afford the products they are selling then they will not be in business very long. Not without massive bailouts, anyway, which means taking out the entire economy with them when they inevitably self destruct.
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That is a great theory, but in real life they pay starvation wages, ship jobs overseas, and encourage employees to go on welfare while using the boon of deregulation and tax cuts to buy back their own stock to make it appear they are healthy even though fundamentals say different. It seems they lost the Henry Ford appreciation for the fact that if employees cannot afford the products they are selling then they will not be in business very long. Not without massive bailouts, anyway, which means taking out the entire economy with them when they inevitably self destruct.
I reject your blanket statement. I've never worked for a company that did any of that.
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I meant for people, have the same % for all level of incomes. Example, guy who makes 33k a year pays 18% tax. So does the 160k a year person.
No need 51% yet cause we dont have socialist healthcare.
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all you people who are demonizing the waltons may want to look at the list of companies that gave people raises in the past month...
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all you people who are demonizing the waltons may want to look at the list of companies that gave people raises in the past month...
My friend works for a high end purse/wallet store. They cut pay by 10% for all employees and will pay the rest until the end of the year. IDK if that company received any government money.
Macy's paid their employees partial checks till end of March. Macy's closed it's doors end of feb, early march.
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Some of you guys should try a little harder to find news sources other than the lipstick-smeared corporate press releases that pass for journalism these days. Walmart is a massively profitable operation that encourages its workers to abuse the welfare system instead of paying them living wages. Not sure if that is the worst kind of Socialism but it is right up there on the top of the list. If they think they can keep the pitchforks and torches away by throwing out a few hand fulls of candy to the mob every once in a while then they have another thing coming.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/04/15/report-walmart-workers-cost-taxpayers-6-2-billion-in-public-assistance/#17d2e6a720b7
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I reject your blanket statement. I've never worked for a company that did any of that.
The fact that you got lucky does not mean these abuses do not exist. The documentation is extensive, people are very angry, and ignoring the problem will only cause a Socialist revolution.
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The fact that you got lucky does not mean these abuses do not exist. The documentation is extensive, people are very angry, and ignoring the problem will only cause a Socialist revolution.
That statement proves that your blanket accusations against all of corporate America is a lie.
Hyperbolic much?
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The fact that you got lucky does not mean these abuses do not exist. The documentation is extensive, people are very angry, and ignoring the problem will only cause a Socialist revolution.
People are angry because they choose to be. There are tons of people from third world countries who would love to trade places with Americans who feel “abused”.
People in America like to think they should be able to raise a family flipping burgers at McDonald’s or stocking shelves at Walmart. It just doesn’t work that way. People have to be rewarded for making good decisions and you have to let people suffer who’ve made bad decisions. It may seam heartless but nothing motivates someone better then hard times.
HB I once thought like you. A video that really changed my perspective about the rich was a video by peter schiff. The title is “I’m part of the 1% let’s talk”. It actually turned me conservative. Watch it and let me know what you think :shaka:
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I think I deserve free ammo.
I think I should come in 1st place in what ever competition I enter in.
When I walk into a liquor establishment / bar I expect people to know my name...well because I have IG, FB, MySpace accounts
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"People are angry because they choose to be. There are tons of people from third world countries who would love to trade places with Americans who feel “abused”.'
We need to be careful how "abused" is defined. I would have a very low opinion of third world underage individuals who are willing to leave their home countries to become one of the "abused" employees at child sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein's island.
"A video that really changed my perspective about the rich was a video by peter schiff. The title is “I’m part of the 1% let’s talk”.
Peter Schiff is a staunch supporter of pure capitalism and there is nothing wrong with that. However, the problem is the pure capitalist utopia he envisions without any government interference does not and, like the ideal workers paradise, never will exist. Hence, it is his fanatical devotion to the anti-government / pure capitalist paradigm that gives reason for pause on the things he economically advocates for the interests of the ultrawealthy 1%.
The video below was a discussion that was conducted during the occupy wall street movement. In his debate with Professor Cornell West, Schiff relentlessly attacks and blames government for all of the economic ills America has ever faced, while claiming how pure capitalism would have avoided all those problems as well as saying how capitalism alone and not the worker movements in the early 20th century that led to incorporation of the 5-day work week and the end of child labor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wl3qC_ZO5c
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:wtf: does anything you just posted have to do with Warren Buffet?
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:wtf: does anything you just posted have to do with Warren Buffet?
College grad of Gender studies and Economics, majored in Philosophy. :sleeping:
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People have to be rewarded for making good decisions and you have to let people suffer who’ve made bad decisions. It may seam heartless but nothing motivates someone better then hard times.
I am conservative. More than most people here. Right now corporations get the royal socialist treatment through subsidies, bailouts, tax breaks, etc and the evidence is in. Our economy is crashed to the point where the only thing holding up our currency is our military capability, which is seriously overestimated due to the corruption and incompetence of the military industrial complex.
We are headed for a crash of an epic scale, and gripping tightly to a failed neoliberal ideology is just another form of denial.
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I am conservative. More than most people here. Right now corporations get the royal socialist treatment through subsidies, bailouts, tax breaks, etc and the evidence is in. Our economy is crashed to the point where the only thing holding up our currency is our military capability, which is seriously overestimated due to the corruption and incompetence of the military industrial complex.
We are headed for a crash of an epic scale, and gripping tightly to a failed neoliberal ideology is just another form of denial.
What is the failed neoliberal ideology?
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What is the failed neoliberal ideology?
Big business demands all of the profits but none of the responsibility.
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Big business demands all of the profits but none of the responsibility.
what responsibilities?
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what responsibilities?
Exactly
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Exactly
businesses pay you for labor rendered. What else?
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businesses pay you for labor rendered. What else?
I am going to use real life examples I brought up earlier to help finish that thought process for you.
So if the only thing corporations are responsible for is earning profits for their shareholders, would not slavery be the ultimate labor arrangement? Perhaps, but they still have to pay for slave food, lodging, medical care, etc and deal with regular work stoppages and sabotage. A much better arrangement would be to pay the workers so little that they have to depend on public benefits programs, bribe the politicians to reduce the corporate tax liability to avoid paying those benefits, then when the economy blows up because the company's customers were starved out of existence they can demand a federal bailout on top of the tax breaks and subsidies they are already receiving.
Then when the people start to get angry because they realize we are ruled by a bunch of spoiled cynical parasites, the companies can bribe those same politicians to pass more gun control bills and militarize the police force. It is not a solution but it might buy the bigwigs some more time to put the finishing touches on their posh doomsday bunkers so when the whole system implodes due to greed and incompetence they can flip everyone the bird from their private helicopters as they are whisked away to a luxurious life of caviar and pedophilia.
That is the Hollywood ending anyhow.
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I am going to use real life examples I brought up earlier to help finish that thought process for you.
So if the only thing corporations are responsible for is earning profits for their shareholders, would not slavery be the ultimate labor arrangement? Perhaps, but they still have to pay for slave food, lodging, medical care, etc and deal with regular work stoppages and sabotage. A much better arrangement would be to pay the workers so little that they have to depend on public benefits programs, bribe the politicians to reduce the corporate tax liability to avoid paying those benefits, then when the economy blows up because the company's customers were starved out of existence they can demand a federal bailout on top of the tax breaks and subsidies they are already receiving.
Then when the people start to get angry because they realize we are ruled by a bunch of spoiled cynical parasites, the companies can bribe those same politicians to pass more gun control bills and militarize the police force. It is not a solution but it might buy the bigwigs some more time to put the finishing touches on their posh doomsday bunkers so when the whole system implodes due to greed and incompetence they can flip everyone the bird from their private helicopters as they are whisked away to a luxurious life of caviar and pedophilia.
That is the Hollywood ending anyhow.
This belongs in the Drunken Post topic ..... right? :wacko:
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This belongs in the Drunken Post topic ..... right? :wacko:
It’s okay if you don’t have a response. Weening yourself off propaganda is a painful process, but ultimately worth it. Check out Rose McGowan sobbing because she was forced to finally realize Democrats do not care about sexual assault victims and metoo was a weaponized political sham.
The real danger is having a psychotic break when you can no longer postpone the realization that the people you are defending so vehemently actually despise you. Even a farmer does not hate his livestock.
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I am going to use real life examples I brought up earlier to help finish that thought process for you.
So if the only thing corporations are responsible for is earning profits for their shareholders, would not slavery be the ultimate labor arrangement? Perhaps, but they still have to pay for slave food, lodging, medical care, etc and deal with regular work stoppages and sabotage. A much better arrangement would be to pay the workers so little that they have to depend on public benefits programs, bribe the politicians to reduce the corporate tax liability to avoid paying those benefits, then when the economy blows up because the company's customers were starved out of existence they can demand a federal bailout on top of the tax breaks and subsidies they are already receiving.
Then when the people start to get angry because they realize we are ruled by a bunch of spoiled cynical parasites, the companies can bribe those same politicians to pass more gun control bills and militarize the police force. It is not a solution but it might buy the bigwigs some more time to put the finishing touches on their posh doomsday bunkers so when the whole system implodes due to greed and incompetence they can flip everyone the bird from their private helicopters as they are whisked away to a luxurious life of caviar and pedophilia.
That is the Hollywood ending anyhow.
Your explanation did not reflect that this is still a free labor market.
I'm a shareholder in many companies. I own funds that invest in these companies. I'm sure many of you do the same. There are shareholder meetings and proxy voting. No vote. No grumble. No like that company? Invest in something else. It's a free market.
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Your explanation did not reflect that this is still a free labor market.
I'm a shareholder in many companies. I own funds that invest in these companies. I'm sure many of you do the same. There are shareholder meetings and proxy voting. No vote. No grumble. No like that company? Invest in something else. It's a free market.
A free market has never and can never exist, because it is a theory that completely ignores human behavior. There is always a balance between state control vs gangsterism.
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It’s okay if you don’t have a response. Weening yourself off propaganda is a painful process, but ultimately worth it. Check out Rose McGowan sobbing because she was forced to finally realize Democrats do not care about sexual assault victims and metoo was a weaponized political sham.
The real danger is having a psychotic break when you can no longer postpone the realization that the people you are defending so vehemently actually despise you. Even a farmer does not hate his livestock.
That WAS my response. :rofl:
Your rant flew off the rails as soon as you made an analogy to slavery ... and then you picked up speed!! :shake:
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I am going to use real life examples I brought up earlier to help finish that thought process for you.
So if the only thing corporations are responsible for is earning profits for their shareholders, would not slavery be the ultimate labor arrangement? Perhaps, but they still have to pay for slave food, lodging, medical care, etc and deal with regular work stoppages and sabotage. A much better arrangement would be to pay the workers so little that they have to depend on public benefits programs, bribe the politicians to reduce the corporate tax liability to avoid paying those benefits, then when the economy blows up because the company's customers were starved out of existence they can demand a federal bailout on top of the tax breaks and subsidies they are already receiving.
Then when the people start to get angry because they realize we are ruled by a bunch of spoiled cynical parasites, the companies can bribe those same politicians to pass more gun control bills and militarize the police force. It is not a solution but it might buy the bigwigs some more time to put the finishing touches on their posh doomsday bunkers so when the whole system implodes due to greed and incompetence they can flip everyone the bird from their private helicopters as they are whisked away to a luxurious life of caviar and pedophilia.
That is the Hollywood ending anyhow.
I agree that corporations needs to bear more responsibility, if what your talking about are bailouts. You are correct that when corporation are not responsible for bad decisions in their business it can definitely negatively effect the economy like it already is. However taxing the “ultra wealthy” is also part of a failed liberal ideology as well. How would making large corporations “pay their fair share” help? It’s still the government that’s going to decide what to do with those extra funds, assuming the rich even pay it.
Also the idea that slavery is the ultimate labor arrangement is just plain wrong. Corporations are responsible for profits but in order to make profits in a freemarket you have to provide a service or product that competes with other businesses. They also have to compete for LABOR. What person in a freemarket would work for a corporation as a slave? It just could never happen.
As for a completely free market not being able to exist I also have to disagree. You may be correct that a truly free market probably has never existed, yet the economy does better under markets that are more free.
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However taxing the “ultra wealthy” is also part of a failed liberal ideology as well. How would making large corporations “pay their fair share” help? It’s still the government that’s going to decide what to do with those extra funds, assuming the rich even pay it.
That's the main point right there.
The ultrawealthy have been notorious for taking advantage of tax loopholes written in the tax code, passed by Congressmen bought and paid off by the same ultrawealthy. If there are no tax loopholes, then they deposit their money in other countries that have them or offshore bank accounts.
In any case, how would the US be better served if the ultrawealthy are not paying their fair share of taxes?
Also the idea that slavery is the ultimate labor arrangement is just plain wrong. Corporations are responsible for profits but in order to make profits in a freemarket you have to provide a service or product that competes with other businesses. They also have to compete for LABOR. What person in a freemarket would work for a corporation as a slave? It just could never happen.
The free market scenario you bring up works if there was no illegal immigration, the offshoring of jobs to foreign blue and white collar sweatshops, and bringing in H1-B foreign workers.
As for a completely free market not being able to exist I also have to disagree. You may be correct that a truly free market probably has never existed, yet the economy does better under markets that are more free.
Partially true. One only needs to look at China and their GDP that is projected to surpass that of the US by the mid-21st century to know that socialism based free market economies can succeed as well.
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The point I’m making is there would not be a need for the “ultra wealthy” to pay off politicians to provide tax loopholes if there was no income tax in the first place. No body should have to pay income tax. I pay $20k+ per year in taxes, what the hell do I get in return that I could not get in the private sector for wayyy cheaper or way more quality? What exactly is a corporations “fair share”? They provide a product/services that enrich our lives AND provide jobs for people so they can feed their families.
As far as e offshore jobs that’s what happens when you hamper corporations with regulations and taxes. It’s the same reason no one wants to open up businesses in Hawaii.
Also chinas economy is surpassing America because, again, they do not have the same labor regulations, taxes, and environmental regulations that make it impossible to do business in America.
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As for a completely free market not being able to exist I also have to disagree. You may be correct that a truly free market probably has never existed, yet the economy does better under markets that are more free.
The problem with the free market religion is it is based around a fictional character called Economic Man. Have you ever seen him on the news or read his book? Mean either, but I have heard of Economic Hitmen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONVcAY2UrQ0
We have had the lowest corporate tax rate of the century, rolled back regulations, and American workers are paid a fraction of their wages a few decades ago when adjusted for the cost of living. If the Free Market was self-correcting it would have turned the ship around by now. Arguing that we should give rich people more of our money is only enabling the Socialists, and you REALLY do not want those guys taking over.
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The point I’m making is there would not be a need for the “ultra wealthy” to pay off politicians to provide tax loopholes if there was no income tax in the first place. No body should have to pay income tax.
How are you basing the presumption that the ultrawealthy's only motive in bribing US lawmakers is to avoid federal income taxes? There are many other reasons why it would be in the interest of the ultrawealthy to bribe politicians. Furthermore, all nations levy taxes on their citizens as the primary means of generating revenue. Suppose you got rid of federal income taxation, what would take its place?
I pay $20k+ per year in taxes, what the hell do I get in return that I could not get in the private sector for wayyy cheaper or way more quality?
How about law enforcement and the armed forces to deter foreign invasion? Are you suggesting that we privatize both institutions and have "Robocops" patrolling the streets and "Blackwater mercenaries/contractors" defending America?
What exactly is a corporations “fair share”? They provide a product/services that enrich our lives AND provide jobs for people so they can feed their families.
Fair share is whatever the people of a country determines it to be.
Corporations are not there to benefit the people; they are there to make profit and enrich their shareholders. There is nothing illegal with that; however, the profit motive and what's best for the societal good are often not aligned and can negatively affect the health and well-being of the population and society.
As far as e offshore jobs that’s what happens when you hamper corporations with regulations and taxes. It’s the same reason no one wants to open up businesses in Hawaii.
Hawaii is definitely overregulated. However, this situation has more to do with creating a dependence with the continental US, which is another sovereign story completely.
Also chinas economy is surpassing America because, again, they do not have the same labor regulations, taxes, and environmental regulations that make it impossible to do business in America.
Not exactly true.
Many businesses in China are not shackled with American-type business regulations; however, the Chinese government does a lot of central economic planning and all businesses do surrender to the will of the government. Not bad, if you consider the fact that China has and is currently the most successful economic socialist-led country in World history.
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I never said that was their ONLY motive, the tax loopholes is what you brought up. Obviously there are way more things that they want to bribe politicians for. Subsidies, tax cuts, government contracts (guaranteed money) are just the tip of the iceberg. I don’t care what “other countries” primary means of generating revenue for the government is. This is America and for a while up to the early 1900’s we never had an income tax. Ideally the income tax would be replaced by.. nothing. No income tax means no dumbass departments and programs that do nothing.
Again we didn’t have an income tax and we still had law enforcement, and firefighters. I’m also curious as to what you think current police officers are today. To me their nothing but private organizations that are run by the government. They violate constitutional amendments left and right yet they are government run, so what’s the difference? Also theirs no evidence that suggest we can’t have a strong army without an income tax, we just need to have the proper sized government.
“A corporations fair share is what the people determine.” Go open up a business and when it becomes large and successful we will come in and tell you what your fair share is. After you’ve worked 20+ hours a day building your company investing your own money and labor, well see how you feel when an angry mob of losers come demanding more things from your successful company because “I don’t have enough”. You seem to not understand that the profit motive of a company is exactly what we want. A company cannot create a profit if they do not have something that we want. Therefore if they are turning a profit it is because they sold us something we needed/wanted.
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The income tax is also responsible for redistributing wealth upwards on the grand pyramid scheme, which means it is stealing money from workers to give to the elite. There are a host of other taxes that can be levied that do not reward those who are greedy, corrupt, and powerful enough to game the system. It is a feature, not a bug. Much like the ever increasing frequency and severity of economic crashes.
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The income tax is also responsible for redistributing wealth upwards on the grand pyramid scheme, which means it is stealing money from workers to give to the elite. There are a host of other taxes that can be levied that do not reward those who are greedy, corrupt, and powerful enough to game the system. It is a feature, not a bug. Much like the ever increasing frequency and severity of economic crashes.
The tax code was never supposed to become a mechanism for behavioral and economic shaping , but that's all it seems to be now.
If the law makers want more people to buy homes, or cars, or baby safety seats, they add a tax deduction or credit for it.
If they want more people investing in the stock market, they lower capital gains tax.
If they want people to give more to charity, they increase the ability of people to claim deductions even if not itemizing.
It's to the point where nobody wants to make their own decisions about anything involving money until they consult their tax advisor.
It's not that the corporations are greedy, it's that the tax code is a multi-headed monster that needs to be cut down to size. Look at all the damage Obamacare caused trying to tax people for not having insurance. it's insane what the tax system has evolved into.
There's no way arguing over who should be paying more is solving anything. We should be looking at all the laws and striking them from existence. Maybe then we can put to rest this monster that consumes $400+ billion from the economy in the form of planning, compliance, record-keeping and filing of our taxes.
Think of what those billions could be spent on other than the care and feeding of the government tax monster.
https://taxfoundation.org/compliance-costs-irs-regulations/
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It gets way worse. Here is the story about how billionaires conned the environmental movement into handing over trillions of tax dollars toward green energy solutions that literally grind up chunks of the planet just to waste more energy than they actually create. There are many industries that only exist because of the corrupt administration of subsides, but these guys operate on an almost Satanic level of cynicism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk11vI-7czE
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The issue now is not fairness but instability. When income inequality reaches such obscene levels as we have now then a revolution becomes imminent. WB is a savvy investor with a keen eye of the future who can see the pitchforks and torches gathering while the Bezos, Gates, Musk, and the Waltons are still sucking up our tax money to buy back their own stock and starving their workers like everything is normal.
Where do you think the latest centrally coordinated and extremely well-funded push against gun rights came from? Bloomberg was the head of the worlds largest private army (NYPD) and was privy to the pentagon briefings on civil unrest.
At least Buffet has the good sense to know the hell on earth about to be unleashed by short sighted greed, bad policy, as well as lack of leadership and is trying to stick his finger in the dyke.
You said: “When income inequality reaches such obscene levels as we have now then a revolution becomes imminent.”
Okay, let me make sure I understand your statement. You are saying that we are now at a point that a revolution is going to happen? If I get your point correctly, please provide some proof that a revolution is now in the works. No innuendos, no predictions, real proof that there are groups of people currently forming somewhere piling up arms and plotting against the government to overthrow it. Just curious where this is happening so I can join in.
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You said: “When income inequality reaches such obscene levels as we have now then a revolution becomes imminent.”
Okay, let me make sure I understand your statement. You are saying that we are now at a point that a revolution is going to happen? If I get your point correctly, please provide some proof that a revolution is now in the works. No innuendos, no predictions, real proof that there are groups of people currently forming somewhere piling up arms and plotting against the government to overthrow it. Just curious where this is happening so I can join in.
Inspector,
You and I are of similar age and background,
as kids, I suggest you read up on 4th generation warfare.
4GW,
Asymmetry is your friend.
I play Chess.
I don't play poker, ever.
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Inspector,
You and I are of similar age and background,
as kids, I suggest you read up on 4th generation warfare.
4GW,
Asymmetry is your friend.
I play Chess.
I don't play poker, ever.
In chess, you must always have the better strategy and most power, or you'll lose -- there is no alternative. The person with the king still on the board wins.
Poker gives the underdog the chance to win even when he's holding the weakest hand.
I like poker better -- getting your opponent to back down when he's got the advantage might be your only chance to win.
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You said: “When income inequality reaches such obscene levels as we have now then a revolution becomes imminent.”
Okay, let me make sure I understand your statement. You are saying that we are now at a point that a revolution is going to happen? If I get your point correctly, please provide some proof that a revolution is now in the works. No innuendos, no predictions, real proof that there are groups of people currently forming somewhere piling up arms and plotting against the government to overthrow it. Just curious where this is happening so I can join in.
The picture you are painting is very specific. Think more along the lives of BLM, AOC, and the millions of people who were struggling paycheck to paycheck and suddenly facing total destitution while billionaires profit from the disaster. The tinder is dry. All it takes is the right spark.
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In chess, you must always have the better strategy and most power, or you'll lose -- there is no alternative. The person with the king still on the board wins.
Poker gives the underdog the chance to win even when he's holding the weakest hand.
I like poker better -- getting your opponent to back down when he's got the advantage might be your only chance to win.
Hey guy
Interesting point of view.
I was mentored by the best
in an Aerospace company where
failure is never an option.
I'm a stick in the mud.
Chess is about control.
Poker is gambling.
You would not go on one of my
airplanes if you thought it would fail.
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Hey guy
Interesting point of view.
I was mentored by the best
in an Aerospace company where
failure is never an option.
I'm a stick in the mud.
Chess is about control.
Poker is gambling.
You would not go on one of my
airplanes if you thought it would fail.
Poker is a game of skill and mathematics. There is an element of chance (the cards don't always follow the "rules"), but some games like Texas Hold'em where there are community cards, you can calculate what the probabilities are for your hand to win and what the other players likely are holding.
Even courts have agreed that poker is not gambling.
Poker Is More a Game of Skill Than of Chance,
a Judge Rules
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/22/nyregion/poker-is-more-a-game-of-skill-than-of-chance-a-judge-rules.html
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Hey guy
Interesting point of view.
I was mentored by the best
in an Aerospace company where
failure is never an option.
I'm a stick in the mud.
Chess is about control.
Poker is gambling.
You would not go on one of my
airplanes if you thought it would fail.
Poker is gambling if you’re playing casually.
Airplanes will always have risk too though.
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Poker is gambling if you’re playing casually.
Airplanes will always have risk too though.
The funny thing is, people will pick the airline with the cheapest fares -- which may result in poorer maintenance and less qualified pilots.
:shake:
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Poker is a game of skill and mathematics. There is an element of chance (the cards don't always follow the "rules"), but some games like Texas Hold'em where there are community cards, you can calculate what the probabilities are for your hand to win and what the other players likely are holding.
Even courts have agreed that poker is not gambling.
Poker Is More a Game of Skill Than of Chance,
a Judge Rules
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/22/nyregion/poker-is-more-a-game-of-skill-than-of-chance-a-judge-rules.html
I'm sorry I got an
A- in statistics.
That is what poker is.
If you want to call it mathematics.
fine.
My SIL is really good at poker!
He makes a living at it when
he gets short on contract
jobs.
I'd never play poker with my SIL
and he'd never play Chess with me.
BTW
Even my Dominoes play pisses the family
off as I take so much time.
I usually win.
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The funny thing is, people will pick the airline with the cheapest fares -- which may result in poorer maintenance and less qualified pilots.
:shake:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuAUE58MQt4
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuAUE58MQt4
I used to read all aircraft incidents
every morning.
it has been twenty years now so I can tell
this one.
There was an African( here you get crazy stuff)
a B707 got busted because the air crew
sold the pilot an co-pilot seats
and were sitting on milk crates
as they flew cargo around
Africa.
So much for $500 toilet seats.
Boeing makes a good airplane.
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I'm sorry I got an
A- in statistics.
That is what poker is.
If you want to call it mathematics.
fine.
My SIL is really good at poker!
He makes a living at it when
he gets short on contract
jobs.
I'd never play poker with my SIL
and he'd never play Chess with me.
BTW
Even my Dominoes play pisses the family
off as I take so much time.
I usually win.
You say statistics -- I say probabilities.
My first computer science class in college was Matrix Mathematics and Game Theory.
Poker wasn't included in the lectures, but Black Jack was. Both games' players benefit from statistical probabilities (if you can calculate them as the game progresses) which help predict the most likely outcomes. Part of the classroom process included solving matrices to find the optimal decision.
If you don't learn to use the information available, then you are leaving your fate up to chance. BJ is one of the few games in casinos that offer a skilled player a mathematical advantage over the house.
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There will always be inequality of income because there will always be an inequality of production.
This is true but the next question is whether we should try to bring the things closer together.
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This is true but the next question is whether we should try to bring the things closer together.
There is the moral argument, but then there is also the fact that an urban bubble of prosperity surrounded by crime ridden plague infested slums is not a sustainable arrangement. Humans are genetically hardwired to look after each other because of millions of years in the school of hard knocks, and a fancy new version of globalist exploitation is not going to upend the laws of physics.
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This is true but the next question is whether we should try to bring the things closer together.
Who is "we"? and what criteria do "we" use to decide what is close enough, and what needs to be closer?
Should McD cooks get a $10/hour raise because a shift supervisor gets paid salary vs. hourly wages?
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I don’t know. I guess I have a different opinion on this here. I see inequality as a state of mind. I see nothing wrong with someone being richer than someone else. I don’t see an inequality there. There might be a huge diversity between incomes and/or level of savings/investments. But I have never been jealous of anyone else who has a different lot in life than I have. And I truly believe that those who feel that there is an inequality here is jealous. Not trying to be insulting, just trying to explain my opinion here. But if you remove the emotion out of this so called inequality, then who cares?
Here is the definition of inequality:
Dictionary.com:
noun
difference in size, degree, circumstances, etc.; lack of equality.
"social inequality"
Merriam-Webster:
Definition of inequality
1 : the quality of being unequal or uneven: such as
a : social disparity
b : disparity of distribution or opportunity
c : lack of evenness
d : the condition of being variable : CHANGEABLENESS
While my time in Hawaii was limited to only 11 years, most everyone I met was happy with their position in life. They were happy with what they owned and how things have turned out for them in their lives. Certainly not jealous of the rich or ultra rich. And certainly not cognizant of the inequality in wealth between themselves and others. Most people I know there are not in good financial shape. And some live in pretty bad conditions. The only ones I know that were concerned with with this were SJW or those who were on government support.
Let’s face it, the difference between those that have a lot and those that have very little is just a number. How one feels about that disparity are the only ones concerned with social/wealth inequality.
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“That dam is not leaking because of structural integrity issues, it is crying tears off freedom!”
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This is true but the next question is whether we should try to bring the things closer together.
Question? Not for folks who aren’t willing to work hard or give nothing but excuses for why they can’t make a living while quitting jobs because it “doesn’t suit them”.
Equal opportunity, not equal results. Don’t Want to work for yourself, why should I care or help?
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a lot of measures to "make" thing equal are not fair.
For example, student loan forgiveness. What about those that worked instead of getting a loan? Not fair for them.
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a lot of measures to "make" thing equal are not fair.
For example, student loan forgiveness. What about those that worked instead of getting a loan? Not fair for them.
I agree. While I didn't have student debt, I worked for it in a way through working at a family business since I was "old enough". I busted ass at that job in a warehouse. So when I hear about people whine that they can't make it with the amount of debt they have, I have zero sympathy if they didn't do anything to help themselves.
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a lot of measures to "make" thing equal are not fair.
For example, student loan forgiveness. What about those that worked instead of getting a loan? Not fair for them.
College prices are completely overinflated due to state-sanctioned predatory lending practices, in other words the financial industry created a huge bubble (another term for money going to the 1% at the expense of everyone else) which is leading to the collapse of the university system because kids and parents are waking up to the scam. Better regulation could have nipped it in the bud, but banks and lenders wanted access to bankruptcy-ineligible debt slaves while university administration salaries and perks soared with the groundswell of guaranteed cash.
But yeah looking at it from ideological coke bottle glasses it can all be conveniently crammed into "kids being lazy and wanting free stuff"
The age of consequences arrives regardless
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College prices are completely overinflated due to state-sanctioned predatory lending practices, in other words the financial industry created a huge bubble (another term for money going to the 1% at the expense of everyone else) which is leading to the collapse of the university system because kids and parents are waking up to the scam. Better regulation could have nipped it in the bud, but banks and lenders wanted access to bankruptcy-ineligible debt slaves while university administration salaries and perks soared with the groundswell of guaranteed cash.
But yeah looking at it from ideological coke bottle glasses it can all be conveniently crammed into "kids being lazy and wanting free stuff"
The age of consequences arrives regardless
I agree that "higher education" prices, the accreditation thing, etc is a big issue. However, while I think "kids being lazy and wanting free stuff" isn't far from my belief, I do understand that there are some that hard workers and could greatly benefit from relief. That said, I think too many are viewing education as a right and something that they deserve.
Coming from a non-practicing economist, non-economist hobbist, etc. . .
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This is true but the next question is whether we should try to bring the things closer together.
It's up to the individual to bring things closer, not anyone or any other systems.
Everyone is free to stay at their job, quit, get more education, change occupations, work harder, etc
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College prices are completely overinflated due to state-sanctioned predatory lending practices, in other words the financial industry created a huge bubble (another term for money going to the 1% at the expense of everyone else) which is leading to the collapse of the university system because kids and parents are waking up to the scam. Better regulation could have nipped it in the bud, but banks and lenders wanted access to bankruptcy-ineligible debt slaves while university administration salaries and perks soared with the groundswell of guaranteed cash.
But yeah looking at it from ideological coke bottle glasses it can all be conveniently crammed into "kids being lazy and wanting free stuff"
The age of consequences arrives regardless
I did not inject stereotypes into this argument. I just stated that there are college students who choose not to borrow money but instead work to pay their tuition. The argument of tuition price is separate.
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It is not a separate argument. You want to talk about government intervention enabling the lazy so then let us have that conversation.
As a conservative my opinion is that higher education should face the same consequences as a small business for providing bad customer service and inferior quality products. Same goes for the financial industry. By giving them a free ride we are only shifting the liability of their crappy business model on to taxpayers and guaranteeing a system-wide contagion when they inevitably self destruct.
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It is not a separate argument. You want to talk about government intervention enabling the lazy so then let us have that conversation.
As a conservative my opinion is that higher education should face the same consequences as a small business for providing bad customer service and inferior quality products. Same goes for the financial industry. By giving them a free ride we are only shifting the liability of their crappy business model on to taxpayers and guaranteeing a system-wide contagion when they inevitably self destruct.
It is a separate argument. Nobody but you referred to them as “lazy kids that want free stuff.” The question is how fair is it for kids that WORKED for their degree? That doesn’t somehow mean that those that didn’t choose to work are “lazy”. It just means you took out the loan so now don’t cry that you’ll have a hard time paying it back. You saw the LoAn amount, and you saw the monthly payments, yet you still took out the loan. Predatory or not it is still your responsibility to pay it back, period.
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Question? Not for folks who aren’t willing to work hard or give nothing but excuses for why they can’t make a living while quitting jobs because it “doesn’t suit them”.
Equal opportunity, not equal results. Don’t Want to work for yourself, why should I care or help?
A very fair point but where a strong argument can actually be made is for those younger in age. People who start out significantly farther behind not through their own laziness but through the fault of their parents. There are development windows as children mature and if a child misses one of those windows it can be difficult or sometimes even impossible for them to catch up. I am not just talking about someone never having learned good manners but actual deficits due to a person's upbringing. There is some evidence that there is a window for language and if you don't develop that skill within that window you can't just go back and relearn it. Stresses as a child like abuse and hunger have found to correlate with lasting negative effects. These are some of the things that we (society) can do which would help close the gap and I think doing so ends up benefiting them as well as ourselves. Certain problems that plague society, like crime, show strong correlations with problems at him as a child. Thats why things like a safe place for kids to learn and improving literacy rates are going to do more to lower gun violence than gun bans.
I was not referencing the lazy when I made my comment but the situations that we (society) have the power to influence which can help ensure certain individuals don't end up starting so far behind. And no, I don't mean one of those "you don't know what its like to be black/asian/mexican" type things either.
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Who is "we"? and what criteria do "we" use to decide what is close enough, and what needs to be closer?
Should McD cooks get a $10/hour raise because a shift supervisor gets paid salary vs. hourly wages?
We can be society in general, or our country, or our state, etc.
What criteria we choose to measure and where to set a goal is certainly up for discussion.
Personally I am not a fan of this new "living wage" idea. I don't think you can just legislate something and expect the laws of economics to follow suit.
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A very fair point but where a strong argument can actually be made is for those younger in age. People who start out significantly farther behind not through their own laziness but through the fault of their parents. There are development windows as children mature and if a child misses one of those windows it can be difficult or sometimes even impossible for them to catch up. I am not just talking about someone never having learned good manners but actual deficits due to a person's upbringing. There is some evidence that there is a window for language and if you don't develop that skill within that window you can't just go back and relearn it. Stresses as a child like abuse and hunger have found to correlate with lasting negative effects. These are some of the things that we (society) can do which would help close the gap and I think doing so ends up benefiting them as well as ourselves. Certain problems that plague society, like crime, show strong correlations with problems at him as a child. Thats why things like a safe place for kids to learn and improving literacy rates are going to do more to lower gun violence than gun bans.
I was not referencing the lazy when I made my comment but the situations that we (society) have the power to influence which can help ensure certain individuals don't end up starting so far behind. And no, I don't mean one of those "you don't know what its like to be black/asian/mexican" type things either.
I don’t think anyone disagrees with you EEF. The problem arises when the solution is “ pay taxes and let the government fix the problem”. IF I help it’s going to go to an organization of MY choosing and I will determine how much I donate.
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Hey slave/serf, I see inequality as a state of mind. I see nothing wrong with someone (us slave owners/feudal lords) being richer than someone else (you slaves/serfs). I don’t see an inequality there. There might be a huge diversity between incomes and/or level of savings/investments (amongst other slave owners/ feudal lords). But I have never been jealous of anyone else (any other slave owners/ feudal lords) who has a different lot in life than I have. And I truly believe that those (you slave/serfs) who feel that there is an inequality here is jealous. Not trying to be insulting, just trying to explain my opinion here. But if you (slave/serfs) remove the emotion out of this so called inequality, then who cares?
With all due respect Inspector, I have to passionately disagree with your statement above. Your interpretation of inequality could of just as been spoken by slave owners or feudal lords in past history to explain and justify to a slave or serf regarding their place and lack of equality in their respective society, as I superimposed in your response above, as an example.
While my time in Hawaii was limited to only 11 years, most everyone I met was happy with their position in life. They were happy with what they owned and how things have turned out for them in their lives. Certainly not jealous of the rich or ultra rich. And certainly not cognizant of the inequality in wealth between themselves and others. Most people I know there are not in good financial shape. And some live in pretty bad conditions. The only ones I know that were concerned with with this were SJW or those who were on government support.
Well, as a born and raised Hawaiian, I have seen nothing but a preponderance of social and economic disparity among Hawaiians and many other non-white minorities. The majority of Hawaiians are not happy at all and are sad/disgusted/angry/envious/jealous of the ultrawealthy who have sapped the wealth of Hawaii that was made possible due the illegal annexation of their nation by the US.
Let’s face it, the difference between those that have a lot and those that have very little is just a number. How one feels about that disparity are the only ones concerned with social/wealth inequality.
Not if the rules of the game differ across the social classes in any society.
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Was there equality during the Hawaiian Monarchy?
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Was there equality during the Hawaiian Monarchy?
Apparently so, just like Socialist countries never have a huge disparity of wealth.
Those who get to divide the wealth always -- ALWAYS -- get the biggest cut. it's not a US-created situation.
What the US did was make it possible for the poorest among us to attain as much wealth as they are willing and able to work for. It's unusual to see the lower classes from other countries rise to the ranks of the wealthy and powerful.
I guess in Kuleana's imaginary Hawaiian Kingdom that never became a state, there would not have been a smidgen of wealth inequality, no drug addiction, no prostitution, no violent crime, ..... The corrupt Hawaiians that now oversee the Bishop Estate, Hawaiian Homelands, etc. are only corrupt because they were annexed as a US state. Had that not happened, greed and dishonesty would have never become a Hawaii problem. :wacko:
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What the US did was make it possible for the poorest among us to attain as much wealth as they are willing and able to work for. It's unusual to see the lower classes from other countries rise to the ranks of the wealthy and powerful.
The US did manage to achieve what you are propagandizing in some parts of its history; however, what you are highlighting contradicts the obvious huge wealth gap in the US today. If what you say is true, there should not be such a disparity of wealth in the US.
The corrupt Hawaiians that now oversee the Bishop Estate, Hawaiian Homelands, etc. are only corrupt because they were annexed as a US state. Had that not happened, greed and dishonesty would have never become a Hawaii problem. :wacko:
So all what you are trying to argue is Hawaiians are better off being screwed by corrupt Hawaiians under the umbrella of the American empire. What utter imperial nonsense? :wacko:
Sorry, Hawaiians would rather have and deal with our own corrupt criminals within our own nation. :shaka:
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Was there equality during the Hawaiian Monarchy?
What kind of uneducated question was that? The Hawaiian Kingdom was a free market / capitalist society and intrinsically had economic inequality amongst the classes.
If you are talking about freedoms, Hawaiian nationals had as much as or more freedom than Americans at the same time.
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The US did manage to achieve what you are propagandizing in some parts of its history; however, what you are highlighting contradicts the obvious huge wealth gap in the US today. If what you say is true, there should not be such a disparity of wealth in the US.
So all what you are trying to argue is Hawaiians are better off being screwed by corrupt Hawaiians under the umbrella of the American empire. What utter imperial nonsense? :wacko:
Sorry, Hawaiians would rather have and deal with our own corrupt criminals within our own nation. :shaka:
Who are these corrupt Hawaiians? I want to make sure I dont vote for them
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What kind of uneducated question was that? The Hawaiian Kingdom was a free market / capitalist society and intrinsically had economic inequality amongst the classes.
If you are talking about freedoms, Hawaiian nationals had as much as or more freedom than Americans at the same time.
I don't know because I'm not Hawaiian and did not live during that time period. I am not sure what I was taught in mandatory 4th grade Hawaiian studies was or wan't true.
So in other words, there was inequality during that time as well.
Did Hawaiians have slaves?
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With all due respect Inspector, I have to passionately disagree with your statement above. Your interpretation of inequality could of just as been spoken by slave owners or feudal lords in past history to explain and justify to a slave or serf regarding their place and lack of equality in their respective society, as I superimposed in your response above, as an example.
With all due respect Kuleana, past history only serves to help prevent from it being repeated. Since none of us here in the US are slaves or otherwise, your example is really meaningless. I understand there may be slaves in some other part of the world but there is no slavery here, in Hawaii nor in Alaska. So let’s not make stuff up since we are talking about and and I and not some guy in a socialist country who might be a slave. We are all free men here. We are free to leave anytime we want. That is our choice as a free people. So if you decide you are a slave or you decide not to leave that is on you and not slavery by any definition.
Well, as a born and raised Hawaiian, I have seen nothing but a preponderance of social and economic disparity among Hawaiians and many other non-white minorities. The majority of Hawaiians are not happy at all and are sad/disgusted/angry/envious/jealous of the ultrawealthy who have sapped the wealth of Hawaii that was made possible due the illegal annexation of their nation by the US.
As I stated before, and I have not seen an argument from you otherwise, social and economic disparity is ONLY a feeling. Take away that feeling and what do you have? people who are NOT jealous. People who not effected by envy. People who see rich people and do what is necessary to make their lot in life better for themselves. To wallow in self pity about social disparity is a mental frame of mind that can be easily overcome IMHO. But that can be a discussion for another time.
Not if the rules of the game differ across the social classes in any society.
With all due respect, who cares? If you care about social disparity and you are the one on the bottom then you are the problem. It is your mental state that is creating this issue. Take away that feeling and there is no issue. I will wait for your response without using words like “Passionate” and “Social” and “Feelings” and “Envious”, etc. It is those who are swayed by those feelings that have the issue. Take away their feelings and there is no issue.
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I don't know because I'm not Hawaiian and did not live during that time period. I am not sure what I was taught in mandatory 4th grade Hawaiian studies was or wan't true.
So in other words, there was inequality during that time as well.
Did Hawaiians have slaves?
I've lived here 20 years, have many very good Hawaiian friends.
and co-worked with many for years.
My understanding is most Hawaiians were slaves.
Which is why I reject the demands of the Monarchists.
I also know how they treat Hawaiians in the Land assignment.
I know families that have really nice places in Hawaiian Homelands.
But no infrastructure.
My God-daughter is 1/2 Puyallup Indian and her significant other
is Snoqualmie Indian.
Their tribes takes some care of them and their kid.
Casinos generates the monthly stipend
they get, pays for their medical, gives them land with infrastructure
to live on.
I used to go to my Friend on the Tulalip Reservation
to buy Democrat outlawed fireworks.
He had a much newer and nicer house than I did.
That tribe is just North of Seattle.
Hawaiians aren't even close to doing that for their own peoples,
because when they vote, they vote Democrat
(No Casinos, no self sufficency), pick the most useless people in
the world to run Hawaiian Homelands,
some stupidly won't accept assimilation, or
things like Telescopes on the side of a dead volcano.
Some people adapt. Some long for the past
but I was always taught " you can never go home".
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Tulalip and Muckleshoot tribes. I’ve “donated” a lot of $$$ to them over the years...
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I don't know because I'm not Hawaiian and did not live during that time period. I am not sure what I was taught in mandatory 4th grade Hawaiian studies was or wan't true.
So in other words, there was inequality during that time as well.
Did Hawaiians have slaves?
There existed the institution of slavery prior to the Kingdom era, but was eliminated, thereafter.
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Who are these corrupt Hawaiians? I want to make sure I dont vote for them
Most Hawaiians in almost every public leadership position today are in one way or another CORRUPT.
I personally would LOVE to see all of them rounded-up and thrown in jail, starting with OHA and DHHL.
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With all due respect, who cares? If you care about social disparity and you are the one on the bottom then you are the problem. It is your mental state that is creating this issue. Take away that feeling and there is no issue. I will wait for your response without using words like “Passionate” and “Social” and “Feelings” and “Envious”, etc. It is those who are swayed by those feelings that have the issue. Take away their feelings and there is no issue.
Growing up a poor Hawaiian, I never allowed the social and economic realities affecting Hawaiians stop me from achieving my professional goals, as sadly some Hawaiians have succumbed to doing. However, the rules of the game do differ tremendously within and among the social classes and the races, which does affect one's attempt in bettering their respective situation. As this is just part of life, I would offer that it is this disparity of opportunity, which leads to differing forms of societal inequality that plays a major role in one's decision to strive in any given society. Yes, there are things we can't change and must adapt; I agree totally. However, these disparities are very real and not purely some mental constructs. Hence, if such disparities are not addressed adequately by society in the long-term, more people will either drop out, game/corrupt it, or resort to crime or begin some other illegal activities to move up in the World; as what we can see in today's America.
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you will find disparity in every race - in anything - if you look for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pqntYaF79Q
“What’s going on with this game?” Netter said. “The person who designed it is the most racist human being ever. The cue ball is white; the eight-ball is black and the target is for the white ball to knock the eight-ball off the table.”
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"Rules" only keep you down if you follow them. Too many people who were in distressed beginnings have made something great of themselves and of others to believe that there is some set of rules that govern our destinies.
There is only one rule that matters: EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.
If you believe that exists, then there's no excuse for failing if you truly tried.
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It is a separate argument. Nobody but you referred to them as “lazy kids that want free stuff.” The question is how fair is it for kids that WORKED for their degree? That doesn’t somehow mean that those that didn’t choose to work are “lazy”. It just means you took out the loan so now don’t cry that you’ll have a hard time paying it back. You saw the LoAn amount, and you saw the monthly payments, yet you still took out the loan. Predatory or not it is still your responsibility to pay it back, period.
Universities and billionaires get federal backed loans and can be as irresponsible as they please, but too bad for kids trying to Improve themselves only to end up in permanent debt for a useless piece of paper. That is a huge inequality which could be solved very quickly by taking the government thumb off the risk/reward scale.
But that is a conservative policy change which requires re-evaluating our neoliberal plantation slave programming
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If you believe that exists, then there's no excuse for failing if you truly tried.
The greatest among us failed multiple times. What makes them great is they got back up again and kept trying. If you design a system where a person on the bottom can not afford to make a single mistake while the ones on the top have no risk at all then all you are doing is preparing the soil for a socialist revolution.
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The greatest among us failed multiple times. What makes them great is they got back up again and kept trying. If you design a system where a person on the bottom can not afford to make a single mistake while the ones on the top have no risk at all then all you are doing is preparing the soil for a socialist revolution.
I could rattle off a coupe of dozen recent success stories in each of the past 2 to 3 generations who had the deck totally stacked against them in terms of [fill in the victimhood category here]. Yet, they managed to achieve their dreams.
Look at the college scholarships and multimillion dollar contracts provided to kids who grew up in housing projects or on the streets. Look at people like Sheryl Crow, J. K. Rowling, and even Tim Pool who once lived in their cars -- homeless and on welfare.
Way too many to even try to make a list. These are not stories of miracles or government making wealth gaps smaller. it's people seeing an opportunity to achieve something and they worked for it.
The other night I heard someone talking once again about the "Black Culture" that holds people back from success. They believe they can't make it, and that even trying plays into the White man's system. Even Bill Cosby for the longest time said you can't make a success of yourself when you're walking around with your pants around your knees.
I get the feeling some on this forum have the Hawaiian flavor of the same attitude -- that trying to succeed according to standards set by American and Caucasian owned companies is somehow being a traitor to their heritage. In reality, maybe sharing some of that heritage with those who aren't like you will improve both sides of that equation? You can't do that if you refuse to be in the "game" based on political, religious, racial or economic ideologies.
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Universities and billionaires get federal backed loans and can be as irresponsible as they please, but too bad for kids trying to Improve themselves only to end up in permanent debt for a useless piece of paper. That is a huge inequality which could be solved very quickly by taking the government thumb off the risk/reward scale.
But that is a conservative policy change which requires re-evaluating our neoliberal plantation slave programming
Oh I agree that student loans are one of the worst financial decisions a student can make and that universities have benefitted greatly from it. It’s basically guaranteed money and it had raised the price of turition exponentially. I absolutely believe that federal student loans should be cut IMMEDIATELY.
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They also drive down the quality of education. Why offer a superior product when customers are forced to pay even in bankruptcy?
The equality of opportunity gap in the United States is enormous.
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They also drive down the quality of education. Why offer a superior product when customers are forced to pay even in bankruptcy?
The equality of opportunity gap in the United States is enormous.
While on the topic of post high school education, let's not forget the recent admission scandals to high profile universities committed by the rich. This is nothing new and, as Inspector alluded to in another thread, "so what if the rich do those things, what matters is what you are going to do." The problem with allowing the privileged to corrupt the rules of the game is that it not only further contributes to the inequality of society, but makes the populace to loose faith and drop out of the so-called system, entirely.
Consequently, it becomes understandable for those to loose hope and motivation to better themselves because if the rich are already given a seat at Harvard University and guaranteed a high paying job at a major corporation, why should anyone try to work hard knowing full well their only hope to comparable success is if there are no privileged elites that happened to be standing in the same line.
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If I kept the thought that life will always be unfair and unequal I wouldn't get anything done. I believe that a person needs to have the self-discipline and motivation to overcome those negative inferences. Fairness is subjective.
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If I kept the thought that life will always be unfair and unequal I wouldn't get anything done. I believe that a person needs to have the self-discipline and motivation to overcome those negative inferences. Fairness is subjective.
I agree with you Ren; but the fact you had the fortitude to stick to your guns does not mean everyone else has or will ever have the same quality.
Most people are sheeple, right? If we use that framework, the rich are the wolves and it is the duty of the sheepdogs to protect the sheeple from those rich wolves.
Who then, are the sheepdogs?
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If I kept the thought that life will always be unfair and unequal I wouldn't get anything done. I believe that a person needs to have the self-discipline and motivation to overcome those negative inferences. Fairness is subjective.
Yep.
If you're waiting for someone else to help you become a successful adult, THEY are not the problem.
College is not the make-or-break life preparation institution it once was -- depending on your chosen career path, of course.
You can choose a less academic path, or even self educate using the massive online library of knowledge we now have at our disposal, and avoid the entire student loan / "I can't afford to bribe an admissions's officer" / "My SAT scores aren't the best" excuses.
We pay electricians, carpenters, landscapers, plumbers, and a whole slew of other professions quite well for the most part. Skilled workers in many fields don't require 4 year college degrees.
Being the best at what you do is a much better generic goal than simply choosing a career to make the most money. If you aren't very good at what you do, it doesn't matter how many degrees you have.
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I agree with you Ren; but the fact you had the fortitude to stick to your guns does not mean everyone else has or will ever have the same quality.
Most people are sheeple, right? If we use that framework, the rich are the wolves and it is the duty of the sheepdogs to protect the sheeple from those rich wolves.
Who then, are the sheepdogs?
Wrong.
There are two kinds of people in the world -- those who make good decisions, and those who don't.
Sheeple implies they are victims just waiting for someone to take advantage of them. If they are sheeple by choice, then that's their choice.
You're applying a philosophy meant to explain tyrants and the people who protect us from them. I don't see the wealthy as threats to our lives.
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I agree with you Ren; but the fact you had the fortitude to stick to your guns does not mean everyone else has or will ever have the same quality.
Most people are sheeple, right? If we use that framework, the rich are the wolves and it is the duty of the sheepdogs to protect the sheeple from those rich wolves.
Who then, are the sheepdogs?
I don't adopt that "framework".
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I don't adopt that "framework".
Well, I guess you are in the minority, if you think the rich are not the wolves in a capitalist economy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iszwuX1AK6A
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Well, I guess you are in the minority, if you think the rich are not the wolves in a capitalist economy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iszwuX1AK6A
that was a great movie about a person who made a lot of sales. He didn't earn all that money by believing in being sheep and certainly no one held him back from accomplishing his goals. All the while in the context of a movie.
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Well, I guess you are in the minority, if you think the rich are not the wolves in a capitalist economy.
You really think a Hollywood movie is a good source to make your point? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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that was a great movie about a person who made a lot of sales. He didn't earn all that money by believing in being sheep and certainly no one held him back from accomplishing his goals.
Yep. Salesmen don't force you to make a decision to buy. You have the freedom to walk away. Not a wolf. More like a horn dog that uses emotional appeals to get what they want.
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that was a great movie about a person who made a lot of sales. He didn't earn all that money by believing in being sheep and certainly no one held him back from accomplishing his goals. All the while in the context of a movie.
I believe you forgot the part that he was later a convicted criminal.
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Yep. Salesmen don't force you to make a decision to buy. You have the freedom to walk away. Not a wolf. More like a horn dog that uses emotional appeals to get what they want.
I guess the title should be changed to the horn dog of Wall Street.
I can't believe there are people so drunk with the ultrawealthy's Kool-Aid that they would actually defend wealthy elites who break the rules of the game and commit felonies.
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I guess the title should be changed to the horn dog of Wall Street.
I can't believe there are people so drunk with the ultrawealthy's Kool-Aid that they would actually defend wealthy elites who break the rules of the game and commit felonies.
You brought that movie in as supporting your argument.
I didn't defend him at all. Jordan Belfort committed crimes, was convicted and sentenced. He is no where "elite". I don't consider someone like him "elite". You did.
In defining the "elite" is it a crime to be wealthy?
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I didn't defend him at all. He committed crimes, was convicted and sentenced. He is no where "elite". I don't consider someone like him "elite". You did.
He was a millionaire before his felony conviction.
What is your apparent narrow definition of elite?
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He was a millionaire before his felony conviction.
What is your apparent narrow definition of elite?
He made his millions by defrauding people and as a result was found guilty. He was ordered to pay restitution.
My "apparent narrow definition of elite"? Why do you care? I live my life. You live yours. You apparently believe in a class of elites that rule over your life or have power over it with some degree.
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I think Jocko is elite. His thinking is very profound and on point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMdeDsonuqI
So what ecosystem you exist in?
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There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary math, and those who don't.
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another elite. Larry Vickers. ODD veteran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4M7ud5gk8g
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Ren Herring
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Ren Herring
call me names all you want I didn't bring up the question of elites.
He was a millionaire before his felony conviction.
What is your apparent narrow definition of elite?
So who's bringing down who in this topic? Who is really driving this so-called "divide"?
What I'm saying is that the only real person holding you down is the person in the mirror. You are in control of your own fate.
My definition of an elite is someone who has extraordinary skill and motivates others around them.
The only way to break free of this is to give up victimhood because that's how these "wolves" prey on you.
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The only way to break free of this is to give up victimhood because that's how these "wolves" prey on you.
Correct. Collective action to reign in corruption and criminality is the only way to stop them, and preferably before they destroy capitalism.
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What I'm saying is that the only real person holding you down is the person in the mirror. You are in control of your own fate.
In the general case, you are right. However, the level of how corrupt/dscriminatory the rules of the game are still dictates whether you will succeed or not. For example, if you are trying to apply for a high paying job in Hawaii and not a graduate from Punahou or Iolani, good luck to you. If you are of Samoan ancestry and more qualified than the other applicants who happen to be Asian, who are all applying for the same computer programming job, good luck to you.
The only way to break free of this is to give up victimhood because that's how these "wolves" prey on you.
How does making mental adjustments prevent others from taking advantage of you? For example, if some mafioso steps into my small business and asks for protection money, do you really think I can stop these "wolves" by myself?
There is no justification for being lazy and somehow expecting to live a comfortable life. However, to actively preach to others that you too can be another Amway millionaire with just hard work is another bad religion.
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In the general case, you are right. However, the level of how corrupt/dscriminatory the rules of the game are still dictates whether you will succeed or not. For example, if you are trying to apply for a high paying job in Hawaii and not a graduate from Punahou or Iolani, good luck to you. If you are of Samoan ancestry and more qualified than the other applicants who happen to be Asian, who are all applying for the same computer programming job, good luck to you.
How does making mental adjustments prevent others from taking advantage of you? For example, if some mafioso steps into my small business and asks for protection money, do you really think I can stop these "wolves" by myself?
There is no justification for being lazy and somehow expecting to live a comfortable life. However, to actively preach to others that you too can be another Amway millionaire with just hard work is another bad religion.
Another "Amway millionaire" ? Where did I say that? Jocko Willink and Larry Vickers are far from "Amway millionaires". You brought up the example of Jordan Belfort in the form of a movie clip.
You can do what ever you want with your life. The answer lies with who you hold responsible for your successes and your failures.
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There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary math, and those who don't.
I can't resist, this is not directed towards you
111111011001110's in most the comments
today.
Convert to Hex.
Computer science humor.
I had a job once where I had to validate
some data tapes before use in the real world.
That was my chosen pattern for validation.
One day i decided to change it to
1011101010111110.
Messed up their mainframe as
they read data tapes that had real data on them.
They had adopted 1111111011001110 as
the EOT.
Lots of fun for all.
Aerospace in the 80's was fun!
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You can do what ever you want with your life. The answer lies with who you hold responsible for your successes and your failures.
That's only half right.
Personal responsibility to take advantage of opportunity is one half and having government ensure that the rules of the game are not violated or discriminatory is the other half.
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I can't resist, this is not directed towards you
111111011001110's in most the comments
today.
Convert to Hex.
Computer science humor.
I had a job once where I had to validate
some data tapes before use in the real world.
That was my chosen pattern for validation.
One day i decided to change it to
1011101010111110.
Messed up their mainframe as
they read data tapes that had real data on them.
They had adopted 1111111011001110 as
the EOT.
Lots of fun for all.
Aerospace in the 80's was fun!
If memory serves, EOT was a shiny metallic piece of tape applied to the magtape to prevent the drive from running until the tape ran off the spool.
EOF was the end of file marker written between files, and two sequential EOFs indicated the end of the data on the tape.
There was usually a BOT piece of metallic tape at the beginning to tell the drive where to begin reading/writing.
My job in AWACS revolved around IBM 360s and libraries full of 9-track tape. Each AWACS mission required one 7-tape case for the program loads and 2 more cases of scratch tapes for recording over a 12-16 hour mission.
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If memory serves, EOT was a shiny metallic piece of tape applied to the magtape to prevent the drive from running until the tape ran off the spool.
EOF was the end of file marker written between files, and two sequential EOFs indicated the end of the data on the tape.
There was usually a BOT piece of metallic tape at the beginning to tell the drive where to begin reading/writing.
My job in AWACS revolved around IBM 360s and libraries full of 9-track tape. Each AWACS mission required one 7-tape case for the program loads and 2 more cases of scratch tapes for recording over a 12-16 hour mission.
You must be a little older than me.
EOT is a pattern written into the tape magnetically.
as is EOF on the tape stuff I worked with.
Most all of that is very obsolete now.
While I can program an IBM 360, that was
older stuff.
Hopefully you looked up my Binary number
and translated it to Hex.
I always wished
the state would allow eight characters on
a Vanity plate.
My choice would be
"46554B55"
Just for the cops.
You have to be a nerd to figure that one out.
Aloha and have a good weekend.
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You must be a little older than me.
EOT is a pattern written into the tape magnetically.
as is EOF on the tape stuff I worked with.
Most all of that is very obsolete now.
While I can program an IBM 360, that was
older stuff.
Hopefully you looked up my Binary number
and translated it to Hex.
I always wished
the state would allow eight characters on
a Vanity plate.
My choice would be
"46554B55"
Just for the cops.
You have to be a nerd to figure that one out.
Aloha and have a good weekend.
Not sure my age is the main factor. Military computer development agencies were generations behind. They'd just removed the last of the keypunch machines the month I arrived at Tinker.
The mainframe was being upgraded from an IBM 360 to a 370 with remote terminals installed in the old card punch room.
This was all in 1984, the year I graduated from college.
... The operator then initiated an automatic sequence, often by a single press of a button, that would start the vacuum system, then move the
tape forward until the beginning-of-tape (BOT) foil strip was detected by an optical sensor in the tape path. The control electronics would
then indicate to the controlling computer that the unit was ready for operation.
Tapes included an end-of-tape (EOT) foil strip. When EOT was encountered while writing, the computer program would be notified
of the condition. This gave the program a chance to write end-of-tape information on the tape while there was still enough tape to do so.
The sensing of BOT and EOT was achieved by shining a small lamp at the tape's surface at an oblique angle. When the foil strip (glued to the
tape) moved past the lamp a photo-receptor would see the reflected flash of light and trigger the system to halt tape motion. This is the main reason
that photographic flash cameras were not allowed in data centers since they could (and did) trick the tape drives into falsely sensing BOT and EOT.[3]
The 9-track tapes had reflective stickers placed on the non-data side 10 feet (3.0 m) from the beginning of the tape and 14 feet (4.3 m) from the end
of the tape to facilitate signaling the hardware to prevent the tape from unwinding from the hubs. These reflective stickers established the beginning-of-tape
(BOT) and end-of-tape (EOT) marks. Ten feet of leader and trailer tape was sufficiently long to allow the tape down and up the air columns and wrap around
the hub a few times. The extra 4 feet in the trailer was to allow the operating system space to write a few blocks of data after the EOT mark to finalize the
tape data segment in a multi-volume dataset. It was a common practice for operators to clip off a few inches of leader tape when it became frayed. If the
leading reflective strip became detached from the tape it became very difficult to read the data since the BOT point of the dataset was no longer easily located
and BOT orientation was nearly impossible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_track_tape
Newer tape formats, such as DAT and DLT cartridges, replaced the 9 tracks eventually, but that was after I left that assignment in 1989. All I know is, without the foil tape marks, the drives couldn't find the beginning or end of the 9 track.
Now, if you wrote an EOT soft mark on a 9 track, that would cause the computer to stop reading, but the drive would still be able to search beyond that if so instructed. We did that often when looking for what an older tape contained before being written to last. Sometimes someone would accidentally write over the wrong tape (operator error -- loaded the wrong volume and inserted the plastic write ring!), and we'd assist in recovering the files beyond where the last write job ended.
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Growing up a poor Hawaiian, I never allowed the social and economic realities affecting Hawaiians stop me from achieving my professional goals, as sadly some Hawaiians have succumbed to doing.
So you are going to use your own personal experience to prove my point for me? Okay, then thank you. It is your attitude, or in other words, your frame of mind, that prevented you from falling into the “poor me” trap that a lot of people do. It just goes further to show that social disparity is a mental attitude/frame of mind.
Not that it means anything to you, but I am truly happy for you that you were able to overcome what has become a predisposition in life to a lot of people. My personal situation is a similar one. And I for one am very proud of what I have been able to accomplish in my life. Very much the same as you.
However, the rules of the game do differ tremendously within and among the social classes and the races, which does affect one's attempt in bettering their respective situation. As this is just part of life, I would offer that it is this disparity of opportunity, which leads to differing forms of societal inequality that plays a major role in one's decision to strive in any given society.
I couldn’t agree more. However, I will add that no matter what the disparity of opportunity there might be for some (not most) this disparity does not stop the person from becoming successful if they are of the frame of mind to not allow it to happen to themselves. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying everyone has the exact same opportunities in life. I am just saying overcoming those opportunities, or allowing those issues to overwhelm you has to start inside someone’s brain. It is still only a frame of mind.
Yes, there are things we can't change and must adapt; I agree totally. However, these disparities are very real and not purely some mental constructs. Hence, if such disparities are not addressed adequately by society in the long-term, more people will either drop out, game/corrupt it, or resort to crime or begin some other illegal activities to move up in the World; as what we can see in today's America.
Here is where you and I disagree. Any disparities that exist such as prejudice are easily and quickly overcome by the right attitudes. Freedom is the key to overcome all of the disparities you claim exist. Freedom to walk away from the situation and put oneself into a favorable one. It is not societies (meaning governments) responsibility to overcome these disparities. Based on how society/government has already tried, I’m surprised you want them to continue to screw these sort of things up. The fact is these disparities can never be eliminated. Let’s face it, prejudice cannot be overcome by society/government. Period. The only thing society/government can do is to try and change behavior. In other words, we cannot stop a person from being prejudice, but we can discourage someone from acting on that prejudice. It is not perfect solution, but when it is properly executed it will discourage as much as possible. It has proven to be a better method that allowing society/government to change people’s minds rather than behavior. I think it is obvious by the divide we have in this country that allowing society/government to address this problem by artificially interfering with our previous system that it doesn’t work and usually makes things worse. JMHO
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Kuleana,
I want to add some of my own personal experiences here. Back in my 20’s to 30’s I was working for a very old and established construction testing and inspection engineering firm. I was already in management and I was on my way to becoming upper management with a chance to actually have a say in running the day to day operations. That was my goal and dream. Then one day I was called into the office of an engineer who was also Vice President of the company. He closed the door to the office and proceeded to tell me that the CFO of the company was prejudiced against me. In the same way he was prejudiced against the engineer who I was speaking to. The engineer was already tenured in the company before the CFO was hired. So the CFO could not do much to the engineer. Except interfere with any future salary and benefits which according to the engineer, he was actually doing. He basically informed me that as long as the CFO was there, I would not go any where higher into management. I was devastated. I loved the company and I loved my job and I was looking forward to making something of myself in this industry. Needless to say I formulated a plan to take myself out of that situation and put myself into a more favorable one.
After we moved to the Big Island, my wife could not find a job. It may have been due to the poor job market at the time. But one day Jack’s Tours advertised a position that my wife was 100% qualified for. After a phone call she was invited to the office for an interview and and to take an accounting test. She showed up along with an oriental woman. They immediately gave both women the test. Except for one thing. They gave my wife a geometry test, not an accounting test. When she brought this to the attention of the hiring manager, he told her that if she didn’t like it she was welcome to leave. Prejudice at its finest at work in Hawaii. After 2 years of this we moved to Oahu due to my receiving an offer for a job on Oahu.
After we moved to Oahu, I experienced a lot of the prejudice that some locals feel is appropriate towards a fucking Haole. This includes their yelling and threatening me in public. Attempting to try and publicly shame me. At the time I had a great job at a large, old established and respected engineering company with offices all over the world. They are based out of Honolulu. I was their first Haole Inspector. I immediately made a name for myself as the HDOT and HDOE were giving large projects to my company in exchange for having me work on their projects. Then the company forced the retirement of the department head and brought in an oriental (I think Chinese) Wahine as the new department head. It was obvious from the moment she arrived that she didn’t like Haoles. I was relegated to being chained to my desk and given office assistant work to do. After 6 months of this my boss called me in an told me the HDOT and HDOE were not happy that I was no longer available to work on their projects. It was coincidental that they stopped receiving large contracts from the HDOT and HDOE. I think it was more she was not acceptable to them than it was me not being available to work on their projects. There were a lot of rumors about no one liking her. Anyway, he told me she was out to let me go due to my skin color. She was trying to set me up somehow and he could no longer protect me. I had no idea he had been trying to protect me all that time. So I devised a plan to get myself out of that situation and put myself into a more favorable one.
There are a lot more. I was poor all of my life and lived in poor neighborhoods in rundown apartments. My big break came in the late 90’s after I had devised a plan to completely change careers and go from construction to being a development/test engineer in the computer/tech industry. I did that for 12 years until I went back to construction. Why did I go back? In one word, prejudice. My boss at my last tech company was Hispanic and he did not hide his distaste for us old white guys. I was not the only one who experienced his wrath. There were 3 of us white guys. We were also older than the rest of the team. I don’t know if age had anything to do with his prejudice, but he was not shy about talking down to us white guys using language that was definitely illegal. Instead of fighting it I devised a plan to take myself out of that situation and put myself into a more favorable one.
Please note some of these experiences are not in chronological order. The point of all of this is that I have experienced prejudice of both religious and color of my skin most of my life. I feel I have become successful in spite of all of this as I have recently retired. But when I look back to what would my life would had been without all the prejudice I have had to endure in my life, I truly feel I would have been much better off and be much better much earlier in my life. I have had absolutely no privilege in my life. If there is such a thing as white privilege, I never experienced any. As a matter of fact, my experience has been just the opposite. It would have been much easier to just let society take me down and keep me down. And this is what is happening to those who feel that there is social disparity. They are taking the easy way out and it is their attitude that is keeping them down. For every poor hawaiian you know I am sure there are 1,000’s who have move to LV to better themselves and their families. It is those who make the conscience decision to stay in hawaii and allow their situation and their attitude to keep them down who are the problem here. And society has no responsibility to make them do what they need to in order to better themselves. JMHO
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Nobody has any power over you that you don't give them.
Someone in your job might have authority over you (boss, HR rep, etc.), but that's not power. You have the power to gather evidence, take them to court or report them to a regulatory agency, and so on. There are always options. Each should be judged on a case by case basis.
Ultimately, you have nobody to blame for your own situation other than yourself. The system is what it is. Learn the rules and try to follow them, or blaze your own trail. There are plenty of people in the country/world who will respect and support you if you do. Nobody is forcing anyone to remain in a job, school or country that they hate -- except for Socialist countries, of course.
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Nobody has any power over you that you don't give them.
Someone in your job might have authority over you (boss, HR rep, etc.), but that's not power. You have the power to gather evidence, take them to court or report them to a regulatory agency, and so on. There are always options. Each should be judged on a case by case basis.
Ultimately, you have nobody to blame for your own situation other than yourself. The system is what it is. Learn the rules and try to follow them, or blaze your own trail. There are plenty of people in the country/world who will respect and support you if you do. Nobody is forcing anyone to remain in a job, school or country that they hate -- except for Socialist countries, of course.
I guess I'm not as patient as you.
I tire of people that tell us that the only person
that can make you angry is YOU!
I tire of people that think government can fix things
years down the road when your problem is here and NOW!
I was forced to stay in jobs I hated, because,
my ego satisfaction would hurt far more
people than me if I acted selfishly.
Personally I learned very young,
what I care about or feel about things doesn't mean shit.
What I do in life does.
BTW
Did you figure out the ASCII code?
I'm class of 90 and I helped certify
the Next generations of AWACS.
Old computers, but better than
what you dealt with.
I'm probably older than you.
More Inspectors age.
but I'm retired in HI.
My wife is healthy.
so I stay.
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I guess I'm not as patient as you.
I tire of people that tell us that the only person
that can make you angry is YOU!
I tire of people that think government can fix things
years down the road when your problem is here and NOW!
I was forced to stay in jobs I hated, because,
my ego satisfaction would hurt far more
people than me if I acted selfishly.
Personally I learned very young,
what I care about or feel about things doesn't mean shit.
What I do in life does.
BTW
Did you figure out the ASCII code?
I'm class of 90 and I helped certify
the Next generations of AWACS.
Old computers, but better than
what you dealt with.
I'm probably older than you.
More Inspectors age.
but I'm retired in HI.
My wife is healthy.
so I stay.
I decoded the ASCII, but it didn't make sense.
111 1110 1100 1110 x2
7 E C E x16
~Î ascii
I never said there is nobody who can make you angry other than yourself. I said nobody has any power over you but you. It's your life. Even if you have others who depend on you, you can talk to the others and get their input so any consequences are shared if that's your problem. In the end, your success is their success. If you're in a secure job with good pay, benefits and retirement options, I don't see where that's not a successful position. Being in a job and working for someone else is never a dead end unless you stay there. Look at how many have "started in the mailroom" and ended up owning the company or becoming CEO.
Remember: Bill Gates was a college dropout -- from Harvard.
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I decoded the ASCII, but it didn't make sense.
111 1110 1100 1110 x2
7 E C E x16
~Î ascii
I never said there is nobody who can make you angry other than yourself. I said nobody has any power over you but you. It's your life. Even if you have others who depend on you, you can talk to the others and get their input so any consequences are shared if that's your problem. In the end, your success is their success. If you're in a secure job with good pay, benefits and retirement options, I don't see where that's not a successful position. Being in a job and working for someone else is never a dead end unless you stay there. Look at how many have "started in the mailroom" and ended up owning the company or becoming CEO.
Remember: Bill Gates was a college dropout -- from Harvard.
You dropped a digit.
The first binary number translates to FECE.
The second translates to BABE.
The ASCII Sequence I wrote translates to FUKU.
Once you figure it out Mathematics and computers
are fun.
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Nobody has any power over you that you don't give them.
Someone in your job might have authority over you (boss, HR rep, etc.), but that's not power. You have the power to gather evidence, take them to court or report them to a regulatory agency, and so on. There are always options. Each should be judged on a case by case basis.
Ultimately, you have nobody to blame for your own situation other than yourself. The system is what it is. Learn the rules and try to follow them, or blaze your own trail. There are plenty of people in the country/world who will respect and support you if you do. Nobody is forcing anyone to remain in a job, school or country that they hate -- except for Socialist countries, of course.
There is a whole lot of stuff we have no control over, and some very bad people doing very bad things that cannot simply be whisked away by making "good" decisions. This sounds like a really sheltered perspective.
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And this is what is happening to those who feel that there is social disparity. They are taking the easy way out and it is their attitude that is keeping them down. For every poor hawaiian you know I am sure there are 1,000’s who have move to LV to better themselves and their families. It is those who make the conscience decision to stay in hawaii and allow their situation and their attitude to keep them down who are the problem here. And society has no responsibility to make them do what they need to in order to better themselves. JMHO
It was great story up until this point. Not everyone has your same set of circumstances. Obviously you had some sort of decent education and the education here sucks. If you live in the wrong zip code you are screwed. Can everyone afford to pack up and move to Kahala or Hawaii Kai? Physically impossible. Does that mean there is something wrong to the people who got left behind? Absolutely not. Is it our responsibility to figure out how to make the education system better so that we are not surrounded by a constantly refreshing supply of drug dealers and degenerates? Maybe or maybe not. It all depends on what kind of society you want to live in. Personally I would prefer to aim for Mayberry rather than Sao Paulo.
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You dropped a digit.
The first binary number translates to FECE.
The second translates to BABE.
The ASCII Sequence I wrote translates to FUKU.
Once you figure it out Mathematics and computers
are fun.
I bet you were the kid showing everyone in class how to spell "BOOBS" on your TI-30 calculator, huh? :rofl:
"111111011001110" is what you posted at the top of your post. I assumed you dropped a digit since the first "nibble" was short one, but didn't bother to ask.
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There is a whole lot of stuff we have no control over, and some very bad people doing very bad things that cannot simply be whisked away by making "good" decisions. This sounds like a really sheltered perspective.
Call it what you like.
I grew up dirt poor in a broken home. I was the first to get a college degree in my family and only one to become an officer in the military.
I consider my life to have been successful, and I never once required that someone else give up something so I could have more. Life doesn't work that way.
Sheltered? Try learning the facts before tossing around judgments you can't possibly support.
Dr. Ben Carson grew up in the projects and became a famous brain surgeon and now the director of Housing and Urban Development. I guess if you judge people by where they ended up versus where they began, he was sheltered, too.
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How one feels about that disparity are the only ones concerned with social/wealth inequality.
I heard a few interesting talks and podcast on this topic. Interestingly, humans seem to have an innate dislike of equality. Whether we call it a dislike of inequality or just plane jealousy, studies have showing bothers people. And the greater the inequality, the greater the discomfort. Oddly enough if we are all poor they don't really care but if someone is much richer then people seem to naturally get upset. I don't fully understand if it is some sort of survival mechanism but as I recall the behavior has been seen in other animals as well. Even as little children the behavior is common, they will get upset if another child gets more or better items. My daughter still tells me "it's not fair" all the time even though she is 10 years old. Recognizing the human nature aspect of this is important to address the strife it causes.
I think we need to understand this ingrained nature when we talk about the subject and not just dismiss it as some trait of laziness. If anything it seems that we have to be taught to overcome these feelings and not be upset when life isn't fair. We can try to make some things a little fairer but we also shouldn't entertain the belief that we can or must make everything fair in life.
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I don’t think anyone disagrees with you EEF. The problem arises when the solution is “ pay taxes and let the government fix the problem”. IF I help it’s going to go to an organization of MY choosing and I will determine how much I donate.
You touched on the angle I think much of this should be addressed. I am of the belief that generally (not always) once the government starts to force something people resist or get upset even if the idea is a great one. Therefore I think the solution to many problems afflicting the poor is not government mandated programs but socially funded ones. Not convincing society to donate more, for example, can be more difficult and take longer than simply passing an additional tax but people aren't going to resist it and be upset at it.
As a real life example, take the idea of a "living wage". Instead of trying to force a company to pay more regardless of the current abilities, create a culture where the company wants to pay their workers more. Don't cap a CEO's pay but convince him/her of the importance of well paid employees. People love money and someone making 20 million a year isn't just going to give up greed overnight but if through social pressure you can change how people behave then you are going to make more of a difference than a politician ordering people what to do.
My position on healthcare has evolved to supporting some forms of socialized medicine. I have come to believe that we should at least cover medical care for people till they graduate high school just like we do with education. When you run 18 then you are an adult and responsible for yourself but as a juvenile their options are very limited.
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It was great story up until this point. Not everyone has your same set of circumstances. Obviously you had some sort of decent education and the education here sucks. If you live in the wrong zip code you are screwed. Can everyone afford to pack up and move to Kahala or Hawaii Kai? Physically impossible. Does that mean there is something wrong to the people who got left behind? Absolutely not. Is it our responsibility to figure out how to make the education system better so that we are not surrounded by a constantly refreshing supply of drug dealers and degenerates? Maybe or maybe not. It all depends on what kind of society you want to live in. Personally I would prefer to aim for Mayberry rather than Sao Paulo.
Let’s not make excuses for people who make the conscious decision to NOT better themselves. Anyone who makes the conscious decision to not be a law abiding citizen deserves to be in jail or worse. Anyone who makes the conscious decision to stay in a system where they have little to no opportunities deserves what they get. It is the script they choose. Because in this free country, everyone has a choice. And even after they make some mistakes, they still have a choice to better themselves. I believe in no excuses for the conscious decisions one makes in their lives.
Technically, all I have is a high school diploma. In the mid 90’s I went back to school. It was a technical college that went under a few months after I completed my course work. While they provided classes in programming and a degree, no one was really interested in the degree. I was also self studying and getting certified as a Network Administrator by Novell and later on Sun, IBM and Microsoft. That is what the companies I was hired by were looking for. What they wanted mostly were software and hardware/DVT test engineers. My skill set was setting up realistic enterprise sized networks that were used to test the software and hardware being developed. Anyone who had the Novell Network Engineer Certification was hired without experience in the $60k-$80k range at that time. I also wrote the specific test tools we used, and I scripted test tools using existing test languages. There were occasions where I actually worked on parts of the software we were developing. But honestly I hate programming. So generally speaking my education is mostly self taught. So bad education and a lack of education didn’t stop me. This is the opportunity available to everyone in this country. The only thing stopping a person from doing the same is themselves. I’m living proof that anyone with an average IQ can succeed in this world.
Staying in Hawaii after one realizes they got a shitty education and that there is better opportunities on the mainland for everyone with a high school diploma/GED is not smart. And I don’t think you want to support people who are not smart. There are plenty of Hawaiians living in LV supporting themselves and living a better life by leaving Hawaii. And all they have is a HSD/GED. I won’t say that a shitty education isn’t a problem. But every HS Diploma/GED gets weighed equally on the mainland. Mainlanders don’t know the difference between a Punahou diploma and diploma from a different zip code. The fact you make excuses for those whose lot in life was taking what they got and pitying themselves for it means you are part of the problem. Not trying to be insulting here. But the opportunities in this country are everywhere. If the opportunities you want are not available where you currently live, move to an area where there are a lot.
Can the education system be improved? Yes. Absolutely. Is it the fault of the education system that some people decide to make the conscious decision to not be a law abiding citizen? No. Absolutely not. Especially since they are free to make that conscious decision. Sorry, but your arguments fall apart with the freedom to make conscious decisions. No one is forced into that life. And even if that was true, which it isn’t, no one is forced into staying in that life after they make that initial mistake.
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Nobody has any power over you that you don't give them.
Someone in your job might have authority over you (boss, HR rep, etc.), but that's not power. You have the power to gather evidence, take them to court or report them to a regulatory agency, and so on. There are always options. Each should be judged on a case by case basis.
Ultimately, you have nobody to blame for your own situation other than yourself. The system is what it is. Learn the rules and try to follow them, or blaze your own trail. There are plenty of people in the country/world who will respect and support you if you do. Nobody is forcing anyone to remain in a job, school or country that they hate -- except for Socialist countries, of course.
What you said here is so true.
I thought long and hard about gathering evidence and report them and possibly bringing a lawsuit. Of the three old white guys, one left before he got PIPed out. PIP is the Personnel Improvement Program. But I’m sure you know that already. And the other one and myself started to gather evidence and he got PIPed out. I knew I was next. I saw the writing on the wall and I left and moved to Hawaii. Best decision I ever made.
As a side note, a few things occurred shortly after I left. The manager of my prejudice boss was let go not long after I left for doing some nefarious things with IP of the company as the rumor goes. Turns out that without him there my old boss was fired for some complaints brought against him by other employees that I still talk to. I also note in his linkedin profile he was out of work for several years until he was hired back by our old company. But not until after it was bought out by another company. He is currently working as an engineer and not a manager. Not too long after both of them were fired I was contacted by their HR department and they offered me a job. The HR wouldn’t admit they knew much except that they knew I left because of the way I was treated by my old boss. Which to me was an admission they knew about the prejudice.
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Let’s not make excuses for people who make the conscious decision to NOT better themselves. Anyone who makes the conscious decision to not be a law abiding citizen deserves to be in jail or worse. Anyone who makes the conscious decision to stay in a system where they have little to no opportunities deserves what they get. It is the script they choose. Because in this free country, everyone has a choice. And even after they make some mistakes, they still have a choice to better themselves. I believe in no excuses for the conscious decisions one makes in their lives.
Technically, all I have is a high school diploma. In the mid 90’s I went back to school. It was a technical college that went under a few months after I completed my course work. While they provided classes in programming and a degree, no one was really interested in the degree. I was also self studying and getting certified as a Network Administrator by Novell and later on Sun, IBM and Microsoft. That is what the companies I was hired by were looking for. What they wanted mostly were software and hardware/DVT test engineers. My skill set was setting up realistic enterprise sized networks that were used to test the software and hardware being developed. Anyone who had the Novell Network Engineer Certification was hired without experience in the $60k-$80k range at that time. I also wrote the specific test tools we used, and I scripted test tools using existing test languages. There were occasions where I actually worked on parts of the software we were developing. But honestly I hate programming. So generally speaking my education is mostly self taught. So bad education and a lack of education didn’t stop me. This is the opportunity available to everyone in this country. The only thing stopping a person from doing the same is themselves. I’m living proof that anyone with an average IQ can succeed in this world.
Staying in Hawaii after one realizes they got a shitty education and that there is better opportunities on the mainland for everyone with a high school diploma/GED is not smart. And I don’t think you want to support people who are not smart. There are plenty of Hawaiians living in LV supporting themselves and living a better life by leaving Hawaii. And all they have is a HSD/GED. I won’t say that a shitty education isn’t a problem. But every HS Diploma/GED gets weighed equally on the mainland. Mainlanders don’t know the difference between a Punahou diploma and diploma from a different zip code. The fact you make excuses for those whose lot in life was taking what they got and pitying themselves for it means you are part of the problem. Not trying to be insulting here. But the opportunities in this country are everywhere. If the opportunities you want are not available where you currently live, move to an area where there are a lot.
Can the education system be improved? Yes. Absolutely. Is it the fault of the education system that some people decide to make the conscious decision to not be a law abiding citizen? No. Absolutely not. Especially since they are free to make that conscious decision. Sorry, but your arguments fall apart with the freedom to make conscious decisions. No one is forced into that life. And even if that was true, which it isn’t, no one is forced into staying in that life after they make that initial mistake.
First of all, your story is one of hardship and perseverance and it is always a great inspiration to hear such a story from rags to riches. Furthermore, there is never been a doubt that what one does with his or her life has a lot to do with freewill. Myself included, made and still make the choices to succeed in life, despite the ongoing racism and discrimination against all races and ethnicities that does live alive and well in Hawaii. The notion of Hawaii is the melting pot of the Pacific Ocean died after the illegal annexation of Hawaii by the US in 1898, but that is a separate history entirely.
What I am saying and recognize that we humbly agree to disagree is this: it is true that one's fate is what we make, but society must continually keep up the pressure on the body politic to ensure all the games we play are as fair as can be. It is this realization and commitment to social justice that allowed American workers to enjoy the work conditions that people today take for granted. If people did not take a stand to fight such injustice, there would never have been things like the 5 day / 40 hour work week, health insurance for full-time workers, and OSHA that ensures workers are protected while on the job. There would also have not been other equally important things like the civil rights movement in the 1960s, women's rights, and the ADA. All of these acts worked towards balancing the playing field and would not have been possible if everyone just decided to turn the other cheek and just change their career paths.
What is frightening to me and this is just my opinion is that there are some Americans, who always support imperial acts of aggression to other so-called tyrannical nations that deny their own citizens human rights and attaining social justice, but when that same fight happens in the US today, it is criticized by those same people.
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First of all, your story is one of hardship and perseverance and it is always a great inspiration to hear such a story from rags to riches. Furthermore, there is never been a doubt that what one does with his or her life has a lot to do with freewill. Myself included, made and still make the choices to succeed in life, despite the ongoing racism and discrimination against all races and ethnicities that does live alive and well in Hawaii. The notion of Hawaii is the melting pot of the Pacific Ocean died after the illegal annexation of Hawaii by the US in 1898, but that is a separate history entirely.
What I am saying and recognize that we humbly agree to disagree is this: it is true that one's fate is what we make, but society must continually keep up the pressure on the body politic to ensure all the games we play are as fair as can be. It is this realization and commitment to social justice that allowed American workers to enjoy the work conditions that people today take for granted. If people did not take a stand to fight such injustice, there would never have been things like the 5 day / 40 hour work week, health insurance for full-time workers, and OSHA that ensures workers are protected while on the job. There would also have not been other equally important things like the civil rights movement in the 1960s, women's rights, and the ADA. All of these acts worked towards balancing the playing field and would not have been possible if everyone just decided to turn the other cheek and just change their career paths.
What is frightening to me and this is just my opinion is that there are some Americans, who always support imperial acts of aggression to other so-called tyrannical nations that deny their own citizens human rights and attaining social justice, but when that same fight happens in the US today, it is criticized by those same people.
Since when is it the government's role to control the inner workings of commerce? For someone who thinks our military is not something the gov't should be funding, you sure are hot for government control of US industries.
There are already federal, state and local laws and agencies to assist with EEO complaints, OSHA complaints, and so on. The remedies for someone running THEIR business in a way the YOU don't like are: (A) suck it up and play by their rules, (B) Find a way to change their rules from inside -- i.e. become part of management, form a union, ..., (C) go somewhere you do enjoy working, or (D) start your own business and run it how you see fit.
It is not the government's place to interfere in the LEGAL ways a business conducts itself. We really don't want to make it so.
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What I am saying and recognize that we humbly agree to disagree is this: it is true that one's fate is what we make, but society must continually keep up the pressure on the body politic to ensure all the games we play are as fair as can be.
Well, we certainly disagree here. Because “fair” is only defined by the entity that has the most power. That truly does not make anything fair under any circumstances. Let me give you a personal example. Back a long time ago I applied for a job with LA Water and Power. I went thru all the interviews and civil service tests and I came up with a score of 95 out of 100. The next closest applicant was 4 points behind me. I was the highest scoring applicant and I was guaranteed to have an offer made. Yet that offer never came. Why? Because I am defined as white. And a black person at that time the City of LA defined black people as being disadvantaged and automatically gave them 5 points to any score they obtained for an employment application. Giving the black applicant a score of 96 and making them the highest scoring applicant. They got the offer and I didn’t. The truly fair process would be to value each individual equally. But the City of LA had previously succumbed to the pressure that society placed on them to ensure their race has an advantage over the white applicants. Personally, I think this is pure racism because I believe it says that black people were disadvantaged at that time because their skin color made them less intelligent than other people with different skin colors. So they came up with the only “Fair” process they could think of and artificially and unfairly add points to their score so they could maintain their skin color hiring quotas. The skin color hiring quotas is another societal pressure that the body politic has succumbed to that is totally unfair. This is what happens when society keeps up pressure on the body politic to ensure their race has more advantages over another. Sorry, but this is wrong and your wanting this abhorrent racism to happen is just as abhorrent. I would be very surprised if you approve of this? BTW, the City of LA was brought to court and it was determined that this program was racist and unfair and has since discontinued it per court order. Including the skin color hiring quotas.
It is this realization and commitment to social justice that allowed American workers to enjoy the work conditions that people today take for granted. If people did not take a stand to fight such injustice, there would never have been things like the 5 day / 40 hour work week, health insurance for full-time workers, and OSHA that ensures workers are protected while on the job.
Okay, I don’t get this. I have been a union construction worker for many years. This has nothing to do with social justice. What this was was protection for ONLY CERTAIN workers who were dying due to poor working conditions and in some circumstances out and out MURDER by the employer. This has nothing to do with making anyone equal. It only has to do with worker protections. Now, due to societal pressures it has morphed into to a more socialist organization as workers need to be considered as equals. But again this only applies to union employment and has nothing to do with anyone outside union employment. Don’t get me wrong, I understand that the work week outside of the union employment has also morphed into better working conditions. But this was not due to any social disparities. It occurred because the private sector could no longer compete against the union employers offerings so they in turn offered similar and better benefits which makes this competition and a better work environment for private sector employees. Competition is the key word here. This has very little to do with social disparity.
There would also have not been other equally important things like the civil rights movement in the 1960s, women's rights, and the ADA. All of these acts worked towards balancing the playing field and would not have been possible if everyone just decided to turn the other cheek and just change their career paths.
The problem with your example here is that the civil rights movement and women’s rights all they wanted was to be treated equally under the law. They never wanted to have advantages over whitey or men. Unfortunately, societal pressure on the body politic has created just the opposite where certain minorities and women have distinct advantages over certain skin colors which is reverse racism and IMHO illegal because it means not everyone is being treated equal under the law. Which was the original intent of these rights groups.
What is frightening to me and this is just my opinion is that there are some Americans, who always support imperial acts of aggression to other so-called tyrannical nations that deny their own citizens human rights and attaining social justice, but when that same fight happens in the US today, it is criticized by those same people.
Not sure exactly what you are referring to here? Maybe be a little more specific?
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I bet you were the kid showing everyone in class how to spell "BOOBS" on your TI-30 calculator, huh? :rofl:
"111111011001110" is what you posted at the top of your post. I assumed you dropped a digit since the first "nibble" was short one, but didn't bother to ask.
Damn Cataracts!
I'm due for surgery, if they ever open up for elective stuff.
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Damn Cataracts!
I'm due for surgery, if they ever open up for elective stuff.
If I remember, it was up to the O/S what the file/tape blocks looked like. On one system, it was "FEFEFEFE". On another it was "FFFFFFFF". We could force anything in that block we wanted if we knew how, but normally we used the predefined labels for BOF/EOF and BOT/EOT. Cartridges didn't have the shiny foil marks, so we had to initialize them by running a job to mark the BOT, wind the tape to the end, back up a certain length, write EOT, then rewind to the beginning. PITA, especially when you needed to finish making the tape before going home.
The early drives took FOREVER! I really liked when the DAT2 drives replaced the DAT series. The speed improvement was mostly due to compression. The bummer was, we had to normally disable compression for distribution tapes to ensure the broadest compatibility. Not much worse than getting a late night call that the tape you busted ass to send out by the deadline could not be read by the people setting up for an exercise.
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Since when is it the government's role to control the inner workings of commerce? For someone who thinks our military is not something the gov't should be funding, you sure are hot for government control of US industries.
There are already federal, state and local laws and agencies to assist with EEO complaints, OSHA complaints, and so on. The remedies for someone running THEIR business in a way the YOU don't like are: (A) suck it up and play by their rules, (B) Find a way to change their rules from inside -- i.e. become part of management, form a union, ..., (C) go somewhere you do enjoy working, or (D) start your own business and run it how you see fit.
You totally ignore my premise, which is worker protections and standard of living that currently exist were not possible, if it were not social justice individuals who protested, organized strikes, and lobbied government intervention and legislation to make the changes that all workers enjoy today.
The point is the game is always being corrupted and it is the responsibility of the government to keep the game fair for all.
It is not the government's place to interfere in the LEGAL ways a business conducts itself. We really don't want to make it so.
If America had it your way, things like child labor and working with asbestos would still be practiced today, as they were all legal to do prior to social justice warriors that worked to put an end to those things.
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Damn Cataracts!
I'm due for surgery, if they ever open up for elective stuff.
Without reading glasses, stuff like 11111111111101111110111111 looks very similar to 1111111111101111111011111 :(
Getting old sucks. . . :rofl:
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Let’s not make excuses for people who make the conscious decision to NOT better themselves.
That’s not what I am saying at all. That is what you guys keep saying in order to avoid point I am trying to make which is we have a responsibility to make sure there is an even playing field aka equality of opportunity. You are claiming that no matter what kind of unspeakable horror people have to live through, everyone has a chance at success via the magic of the free market economy. That is a dangerous delusion which completely ignores history, sociology and anthropology, ironically In a way that reverse mirrors communism’s complete lack of understanding of how humans actually operate.
The evidence is in and trickle down economics creates more suffering and death than opportunity. It is confounding that this is still disputed.
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That’s not what I am saying at all. That is what you guys keep saying in order to avoid point I am trying to make which is we have a responsibility to make sure there is an even playing field aka equality of opportunity. You are claiming that no matter what kind of unspeakable horror people have to live through, everyone has a chance at success via the magic of the free market economy. That is a dangerous delusion which completely ignores history, sociology and anthropology, ironically In a way that reverse mirrors communism’s complete lack of understanding of how humans actually operate.
The evidence is in and trickle down economics creates more suffering and death than opportunity. It is confounding that this is still disputed.
Well, first of all I never ignored your point, I proved it wrong with specific real world examples. Which is more than I am seeing from you. You keep saying at a high level that society needs to do something, but I have yet to see real world examples with specificity where society has interfered with capitalism and made the playing field perfectly equal. And it worked without unintended consequences. Where are your real world examples? It seems to me that you are the one guilty of exactly what you are accusing me of. It feels like to me, you are ignoring my real world examples like they are completely meaningless. If I missed your real world examples, then please point them out. So I ask that you not make that statement again.
We are not a Socialist society. It is delusional that the utopia you describe can be obtained. No where in this world as we know it has it even been obtained. And even in a socialist or communist society where equality of the masses is supposed to be the ultimate goal, it cannot be and has never been obtained. So there can never be a level playing field of opportunities. Capitalism offers everyone an opportunity of one form or another that wants to take advantage of those opportunities. Note, not all opportunities are the same for everyone. It is only that in capitalism everyone has an opportunity. Those who choose not to take advantage of those opportunities do not get them and do not deserve them. Therefore it should not be the job of society to force those who choose not to take advantage of them to force people take those advantages. You cannot force anything down peoples throats in a free society. Especially here in Hawaii the disparity of opportunity is rampant. Kuleana and I discussed it at great length here in this thread. Let me give you an example as to why your utopia of equal opportunities for the masses can never be obtained. Prejudice. Society cannot control prejudice. All anyone can do is to punish those who act on their prejudice. The fact that we have to have laws against prejudice means people are acting on their prejudice. The hiring manager who has a preference for hiring Kamehameha grads is acting on his prejudice. We all know it happens. We all know it cannot be stopped. Is it fair? No. It can never be fair. And unless he fully admits his prejudice so he can be prosecuted, society can never stop it. How about the hiring manager who hires nephew instead of the Kamehameha grad because family? These hiring practices are already illegal so more laws won’t help. It is rampant in Hawaii. Happens all the time. It means that there can never be a level field of opportunity. Give me a specific example of how society can prevent this from ever happening again?
To sum this up, capitalism is not perfect. It does not provide the same opportunities to everyone. But at least it DOES provide opportunities to everyone. It is the one economic force that has raised more people out of poverty than any other economic process. If you can stomach 15 minutes of your time I ask you to watch these 3 videos. I know I will never change your mind, nor will you change mine. But these videos are compelling and if you do watch them, please provide me with some real world examples as to why they are wrong. Thanks.
https://www.prageru.com/video/as-the-rich-get-richer-the-poor-get-richer/
https://www.prageru.com/video/if-you-hate-poverty-you-should-love-capitalism/
https://www.prageru.com/video/capitalism-vs-socialism/
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"You keep saying at a high level that society needs to do something, but I have yet to see real world examples with specificity where society has interfered with capitalism and made the playing field perfectly equal."
"No where in this world as we know it has it even been obtained."
May I offer the eight hundred pound gorilla on the planet, who is currently the second largest and projected to the lead the World in GDP by mid-21st century, the Peoples Republic of China. China, who is officially a socialist nation, is the most economically successful socialist nation in World history, whose centrally planned economy has raised more people out of poverty than any other nation on Earth, since opening up its economy to the rest of the World.
And even in a socialist or communist society where equality of the masses is supposed to be the ultimate goal, it cannot be and has never been obtained. So there can never be a level playing field of opportunities.
I humbly disagree.
Even though its far from perfect, China's commitment to maintain a fair playing field than that of the US in recent years is a major reason for their current and ongoing domestic economic success.
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A real world example would be the labor movement. All those cushy benefits we are used to taking for granted would not exist if people had not fought and died for them. Maybe having children chained to sewing machines is your idea of a capitalist utopia.
Also the environmental movement. All those pesky regulations mean less money for corporations. Maybe you long for the days where rivers would actually catch fire from all the pollution.
And as far as your real world example of job discrimination, are you jealous of people who successfully stand up against illegal hiring practices because you did not take the opportunity to stand up for yourself? At some point you made the decision to go along with the corruption even through it meant stifling your career and a loss for the taxpayers. The only people who benefit from those arrangements are the criminals, and at great expense of everyone else. By choosing to not resist you enabled it. Is that the magic of the free market at work?
Greed is a great motivator but not a virtue (actually the opposite) which is why we have laws to stop it from destroying opportunities for everyone except a handful of wealthy psychopaths.
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anybody own stocks?
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May I offer the eight hundred pound gorilla on the planet, who is currently the second largest and projected to the lead the World in GDP by mid-21st century, the Peoples Republic of China. China, who is officially a socialist nation, is the most economically successful socialist nation in World history, whose centrally planned economy has raised more people out of poverty than any other nation on Earth, since opening up its economy to the rest of the World.
I humbly disagree, to an extent. Here is a description I pulled off of WorldAtlas.com. I couldn’t get the link to copy so my apologies for it:
“Some economic experts claim that China's economy represents state capitalism rather than a socialist market economy. This claim emerged in the 1980s and the 1990s after the country experienced various industrial and economic reforms. Additionally, the argument for state capitalism is linked to the way in which the country runs the enterprises that it owns. The Chinese government operates these enterprises the same way that privately owned firms operate, meaning that the government keeps all profits. However, in a true "socialist" system, these profits would be distributed in a way that benefits the entire population. Therefore, critics question whether the word "socialist" should be used to describe China’s economy.”
I agree with this statement. Their market is much more Capitalist than it is Socialist. Partly because they allow the market to determine prices. Either way the way the state runs the economy is certainly Capitalist. That economy, if your claims are correct, is the economy that has pulled so many people out of poverty. Not a very good representation of a true Socialist economy. So while the economy might belong to a Socialist nation, it is still state run Capitalism that is doing so much good for China. So my statement that Capitalism has pulled more people out of poverty than any other system still holds true.
I humbly disagree.
Even though its far from perfect, China's commitment to maintain a fair playing field than that of the US in recent years is a major reason for their current and ongoing domestic economic success.
I’m glad we can disagree.
How is China forcing IP from our companies fair? How is their stealing state secrets fair? How is their stealing corporate secrets fair? How is their incorporating hidden parts in their hardware that can be used for spying fair? How is their signing agreements with the US and then not playing by the terms that they signed fair? So what exactly are you referring to that China has a commitment to a fair playing field even mean? With all the unfair practices that China has committed in the past I really don’t know what you are speaking of? Please be specific.
To get back to our discussion regarding equal opportunities and social disparity, I will ask you then if the Communist Party members have the exact same opportunities as the average citizen? Based on historical records the party members ALWAYS have more benefits and opportunities than the average citizen. How about those high up in the government? Do they have more benefits and opportunities than the average citizen? Or even the average party member? Does the average citizen in a big city have the exact same opportunities as the average farmer in the remote areas of China? In a Communist country, you are told what you can and cannot do. So how can the farmer, who hates farming and wants to move to the big city do that if he is forced to be a farmer? What are the farmers opportunities exactly?
We as the citizens of the US have an opportunity to better ourselves. And even become millionaires. How many in a Communist nation have that same opportunity? Especially if they can only work the job they are told to work all of their lives?
There can never be equal opportunities for all in any system. Especially Socialist and Communist. JMHO
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A real world example would be the labor movement. All those cushy benefits we are used to taking for granted would not exist if people had not fought and died for them. Maybe having children chained to sewing machines is your idea of a capitalist utopia.
Also the environmental movement. All those pesky regulations mean less money for corporations. Maybe you long for the days where rivers would actually catch fire from all the pollution.
And as far as your real world example of job discrimination, are you jealous of people who successfully stand up against illegal hiring practices because you did not take the opportunity to stand up for yourself? At some point you made the decision to go along with the corruption even through it meant stifling your career and a loss for the taxpayers. The only people who benefit from those arrangements are the criminals, and at great expense of everyone else. By choosing to not resist you enabled it. Is that the magic of the free market at work?
Greed is a great motivator but not a virtue (actually the opposite) which is why we have laws to stop it from destroying opportunities for everyone except a handful of wealthy psychopaths.
Dude, I thought we were having a decent conversation and now you come back condescending and making really snide comments. Is it my questions and my request to back up what you say with real world examples? I guess that got under your skin. This isn’t the first time you have done this.
I’m not going to discuss further with you since you can’t seem to hold back whatever anger you have.
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anybody own stocks?
I own a small amount. Why do you ask?
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I own a small amount. Why do you ask?
then we influence the direction of these greedy corporations
and China being the model for economic success with a centrally managed system? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ever been to China?
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then we influence the direction of these greedy corporations
and China being the model for economic success with a centrally managed system? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ever been to China?
Yes these greedy corporations need better influences like China. :lol:
It’s more than just managed. In China the state owns the companies outright and takes all the profits and does not distribute the profits to the people as a good socialist country is supposed to do. As a SJW what should I do about that?
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May I offer the eight hundred pound gorilla on the planet, who is currently the second largest and projected to the lead the World in GDP by mid-21st century, the Peoples Republic of China. China, who is officially a socialist nation, is the most economically successful socialist nation in World history, whose centrally planned economy has raised more people out of poverty than any other nation on Earth, since opening up its economy to the rest of the World.
I humbly disagree.
Even though its far from perfect, China's commitment to maintain a fair playing field than that of the US in recent years is a major reason for their current and ongoing domestic economic success.
by this do you mean it's LONG track record of human rights violations?
smh
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Maybe having children chained to sewing machines is your idea of a capitalist utopia.
Why do you always have to go to such extremes to prove your point? Where has anyone, capitalist or other, argued for the scenario you provided? The context of a free market, capitalist society has always been tied to our constitution. Therefore your child slavery scenario just could not exist today.
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Yes these greedy corporations need better influences like China. :lol:
It’s more than just managed. In China the state owns the companies outright and takes all the profits and does not distribute the profits to the people as a good socialist country is supposed to do. As a SJW what should I do about that?
You can start by not buying iPhones and not buying Nikes.
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You can start by not buying iPhones and not buying Nikes.
Too late. I bought my iPhone 8 three years ago.
Have not bought Nikes since the 90’s.
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Too late. I bought my iPhone 8 three years ago.
Have not bought Nikes since the 90’s.
damnit....any mobile phones made in America?
bring back Motorolas and Honolulu Cellular
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damnit....any mobile phones made in America?
bring back Motorolas and Honolulu Cellular
I heard Motorola is bringing back the RAZR. I loved my RAZR.
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I heard Motorola is bringing back the RAZR. I loved my RAZR.
I used to have one of the brick Motorolas.
I had a Razr. I think it was pretty good. It was a long time ago though. . . :P
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I own a small amount. Why do you ask?
I would've thought you sold it all and bought gold bullion when you retired. ;D
anybody own stocks?
Yeah, but I can't can't tell you off the top of my head what assets I own. I know I bought stock in Chinese steel back in the late 90s. At penny stocks, that was pretty fun.
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anybody own stocks?
sold all of mine and my mom's in early February, just before the CV crash
smartest stock decision I ever made
don't regret missing the bounce
"they" are manipulating things, as always...
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I used to have one of the brick Motorolas.
I had a Razr. I think it was pretty good. It was a long time ago though. . . :P
https://www.motorola.com/us/smartphones-razr
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I would've thought you sold it all and bought gold bullion when you retired. ;D
Yeah, but I can't can't tell you off the top of my head what assets I own. I know I bought stock in Chinese steel back in the late 90s. At penny stocks, that was pretty fun.
I sold most of my stocks back in 2008 right before the big crash. Reinvested it all in CDs. I was earning 4%-5%. Now all my CDs are maturing and I am going to keep in cash. Most of my retirement investment is in real estate.
The total sum of my current stock holdings is about $400.
I have 2 loans. My mortgage and my car. I am considering paying off both. But I have not decided whether it is worth it for me at this time.
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I sold most of my stocks back in 2008 right before the big crash. Reinvested it all in CDs. I was earning 4%-5%. Now all my CDs are maturing and I am going to keep in cash. Most of my retirement investment is in real estate.
The total sum of my current stock holdings is about $400.
I have 2 loans. My mortgage and my car. I am considering paying off both. But I have not decided whether it is worth it for me at this time.
Moneywise, I'm very conservative.
Been debt free since the mid 90's.
Best thing I ever did.
I passed up a lot of possibilities to make much more
money, but being free from debt was worth it.
I only invest in real estate. No Gold, I dumped all stock
in the mid 90's.
Real estate is the only "free" market left.
Today cash is king.
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Their market is much more Capitalist than it is Socialist. Partly because they allow the market to determine prices. Either way the way the state runs the economy is certainly Capitalist. That economy, if your claims are correct, is the economy that has pulled so many people out of poverty. Not a very good representation of a true Socialist economy. So while the economy might belong to a Socialist nation, it is still state run Capitalism that is doing so much good for China. So my statement that Capitalism has pulled more people out of poverty than any other system still holds true.
I had stated more on many occasions that there is no such thing as pure capitalism, socialism, communism, or whatever. Each nation's economy will be a hybrid of some combination. Not all socialist-like nations are the same, as it is the extent of balance between what economic ideological -isms that will determine their differences. In China's case, they have adopted much market reforms since Deng Xiaoping, but as any American warhawk will say, the Communist Party is still all-powerful and calls the shots on everything, which it does. Hence, China's macroeconomy predominately follows and bears the hallmarks of socialism where the government does control the money supply, fiscal policy, domestic interest rates, and their foreign exchange rates. In the microeconomic arena, China's government has nationalized some of its large and strategic corporations and does have great say in what kind of businesses are allowed in its economy, while exercising price and tax controls. Consequently, it is not the free market, but China's socialist led / free market balance that has led its nation to alleviate poverty in their country as well as positioned themselves to overtake the US in GDP later in this century.
How is China forcing IP from our companies fair? How is their stealing state secrets fair? How is their stealing corporate secrets fair? How is their incorporating hidden parts in their hardware that can be used for spying fair? How is their signing agreements with the US and then not playing by the terms that they signed fair? So what exactly are you referring to that China has a commitment to a fair playing field even mean? With all the unfair practices that China has committed in the past I really don’t know what you are speaking of? Please be specific.
The fair playing field I referred is that of within their national borders. The examples you raise above are nation to nation competition on the Global stage and, despite the WTO, are almost impossible to regulate. However, I will offer that all of the corporate espionage that China is accused, no other nation is innocent, especially the US, who has its own electronic backdoors in the many computer software and hardware used by us all.
To get back to our discussion regarding equal opportunities and social disparity, I will ask you then if the Communist Party members have the exact same opportunities as the average citizen? Based on historical records the party members ALWAYS have more benefits and opportunities than the average citizen. How about those high up in the government? Do they have more benefits and opportunities than the average citizen? Or even the average party member? Does the average citizen in a big city have the exact same opportunities as the average farmer in the remote areas of China? In a Communist country, you are told what you can and cannot do. So how can the farmer, who hates farming and wants to move to the big city do that if he is forced to be a farmer? What are the farmers opportunities exactly?
Families in any government always share in perks that are not afforded to the general populace. Agriculture in China is a protected industry and farmers do receive subsidies from the government. Young people from rural areas actually have advantages made possible by the government to leave their rural areas and make a living in the major cities. The most notable is that of higher education, which is very fierce and competitive in China. Similar in the US every Fall, there are only a number of slots open in the universities and colleges. Hence, to balance the playing field, a number of open slots at every institution are mandatory allotted to those applicants coming from poor and rural areas, at lower entrance exam scores. Many of my Chinese classmates and colleagues have expressed displeasure with this system, but will not deny that it is indeed necessary to give those rural poor families with little or no chance for social mobility in a free market system, a way for them to move up in social class.
We as the citizens of the US have an opportunity to better ourselves. And even become millionaires. How many in a Communist nation have that same opportunity? Especially if they can only work the job they are told to work all of their lives?
I don't think that there is any argument that any pure capitalist, socialist, or communist led economies will fail in the long-run. Is social mobility easier in China than the US, I don't know. However, when compared to the US, if I am not mistaken, China's socialist based market economy has a faster growing number of millionaires.
I’m glad we can disagree.
I am even more glad we can have a really good discussion for all to learn, despite our differences.
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Moneywise, I'm very conservative.
Been debt free since the mid 90's.
Best thing I ever did.
I passed up a lot of possibilities to make much more
money, but being free from debt was worth it.
I only invest in real estate. No Gold, I dumped all stock
in the mid 90's.
Real estate is the only "free" market left.
Today cash is king.
I have not had a car loan for over 30 years. I pay cash. But because they offered to give me the car for the first three months with no payments because of this virus, I decided to take them up on their offer. I’ll pay it off before the first payment is due. I have had a mortgage of one sort or another since 1999 when I bought my first house. Hell, there was a time when I had 4 or 5 mortgages all at the same time. I’m back down to one small mortgage. I have the money to pay it off, but I am going to wait until next year to see how the mortgage deduction effects my new no earned income retired lifestyle. I want to see if it benefits me to keep the deduction or not. If it doesn’t benefit me, or in a few years if it stops being beneficial I’ll just pay it off.
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I had stated more on many occasions that there is no such thing as pure capitalism, socialism, communism, or whatever. Each nation's economy will be a hybrid of some combination. Not all socialist-like nations are the same, as it is the extent of balance between what economic ideological -isms that will determine their differences. In China's case, they have adopted much market reforms since Deng Xiaoping, but as any American warhawk will say, the Communist Party is still all-powerful and calls the shots on everything, which it does. Hence, China's macroeconomy predominately follows and bears the hallmarks of socialism where the government does control the money supply, fiscal policy, domestic interest rates, and their foreign exchange rates. In the microeconomic arena, China's government has nationalized some of its large and strategic corporations and does have great say in what kind of businesses are allowed in its economy, while exercising price and tax controls. Consequently, it is not the free market, but China's socialist led / free market balance that has led its nation to alleviate poverty in their country as well as positioned themselves to overtake the US in GDP later in this century.
The fair playing field I referred is that of within their national borders. The examples you raise above are nation to nation competition on the Global stage and, despite the WTO, are almost impossible to regulate. However, I will offer that all of the corporate espionage that China is accused, no other nation is innocent, especially the US, who has its own electronic backdoors in the many computer software and hardware used by us all.
Families in any government always share in perks that are not afforded to the general populace. Agriculture in China is a protected industry and farmers do receive subsidies from the government. Young people from rural areas actually have advantages made possible by the government to leave their rural areas and make a living in the major cities. The most notable is that of higher education, which is very fierce and competitive in China. Similar in the US every Fall, there are only a number of slots open in the universities and colleges. Hence, to balance the playing field, a number of open slots at every institution are mandatory allotted to those applicants coming from poor and rural areas, at lower entrance exam scores. Many of my Chinese classmates and colleagues have expressed displeasure with this system, but will not deny that it is indeed necessary to give those rural poor families with little or no chance for social mobility in a free market system, a way for them to move up in social class.
I don't think that there is any argument that any pure capitalist, socialist, or communist led economies will fail in the long-run. Is social mobility easier in China than the US, I don't know. However, when compared to the US, if I am not mistaken, China's socialist based market economy has a faster growing number of millionaires.
I am even more glad we can have a really good discussion for all to learn, despite our differences.
Well, I learned some stuff from what you stated here. So thanks for that. As usual we don’t agree on some. But that is what sharing ideas is all about. :shaka: