2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Reloading => Topic started by: wirecounter on June 28, 2012, 02:33:14 PM
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After reading some of your posts and talking with those who reload (for rifle), I am planning to take the next leap of ARness :wacko: and load my 308 round for better accuracy = single stage press and measure/weigh every component.
Please post your experiences and recommendations for presses and dies. I am hoping to using my Dillon 308 dies, but I am sure many will advise using "better" dies.
Mahalo in advance for your sage advice! :shaka:
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My first press was a Lee 50th Anniversary press. $150 including budget Lee dies (bought separately) shipped to your door from Cabela's (I believe) when they have sales on shipping.
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Recommendations? Don't.
You're not going to get any more accuracy out of a single stage press (it doesn't do anything a progressive won't do with proper adjustment), and weighed powder charges are actually LESS accurate than those thrown by volume. One thing that MIGHT help is getting another toolhead with just a sizing die, resizing/decapping, then tumbling to get the lube off and trimming, rather than trimming before resizing.
Biggest bang for the buck accuracy wise is to get a really good crown on the barrel, and then NEVER clean from the muzzle again. If you use a brush, take it off before pulling the cleaning rod back through (you do have a cleaning rod guide for both the chamber and the muzzle, right?). Best is to use a coated rod and patches with a good bore cleaner, and never use a brush at all.
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What are your goals in your reloading?
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After reading some of your posts and talking with those who reload (for rifle), I am planning to take the next leap of ARness :wacko: and load my 308 round for better accuracy = single stage press and measure/weigh every component.
Please post your experiences and recommendations for presses and dies. I am hoping to using my Dillon 308 dies, but I am sure many will advise using "better" dies.
Mahalo in advance for your sage advice! :shaka:
Honestly, for most of what you are probably going for a good set of dies (in good shape) in any single stage "O" shaped press with an accurate powder scale (not measure) will get you about as close as you may want. Desiring more accuracy you can buy more expensive dies but I doubt you'll see an increase in accuracy that would make the purchase worthwhile. Unless of course you are planning on bench rest shooting. In which case you may want to purchase a set of competition dies. You can try all sorts of things such as weighing components or measuring the volume of each case. Annealing is something I have not tried yet but Heavies has and I believe he said it helps.
In my experience I use Federal cases in .223 which are high in tolerance in consistent volume. But I intend to try weighing them one day to see if I can get better consistency. I use Federal primers (match primers) instead of their regular line. I use a powder known for consistency and use in .223 (H335 and Varget) but there may be better. I use a cheap RCBS Jr. press and standard RCBS dies and with my .223 bolt gun I get ragged one holes at 100yds.
What I found makes the most difference is the bullet itself. First, find the correct weight sweet spot. For instance my barrel twist is 9:1 so I shoot between 60-69gr bullets. I found 55gr bullets shoot well but won't one hole for me. I found Hornady bullets are just okay in my rifle. I have tried at least a dozen others including Barnes, Berger, Armscor, Speer, Nosler and Sierra in every weight imaginable. For the money the Sierra 63 and 65gr (Non Match, approx $15 and $17 per 100) bullets work great. Better are the Sierra 69gr Match Bullets ($18 per 100). But the best are the 64gr Berger Varmint Match Bullets ($28 per 100). The Sierra 69gr give me close to and sometimes one hole targets at 100yds. But the Bergers ALWAYS give me one hole targets at 100yds. If I weighed all my components (especially the cases) I might do a little better. Charges are always weighed. Could I do better with a better press, dies, scale and higher quality components? Possibly but not enough to make the added expense worthwhile.
With that said I also make plinking or blasting ammo. I use Hornady 55gr bulk packaged bullets at $8 per 100, regular (meaning cheap) primers and sometimes some left over powder I don't care for, and Lake City cases with different headstamped dates, plus I use my powder measure and I get 2" groups at 100yds. Federal XM193 Military Ball shoots 2" out of my gun. This is the ammo I use shoot at the distant metal targets (out to 440yds) at Kokohead.
Plus there is so much more you can do to change your accuracy like bullet seating depth.
My take/suggestion is unless you are going for a specific goal which is near perfection then your dies and press are probably good enough. Your gun and components and your meticulous preparation will make you happier and give you great results.
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Mahalo gentlemen for your input! :shaka:
@ Heavies: My goal for reloading 308 is to achieve the 1/2 MOA accuracy that my rifle (Remington 700P) is supposedly capable of. Came very close (~0.75" @ 100 yards) with IMR4895 & Hornady 180 gr SST bullets. But, now I cannot find the target with the load info. :'( so I will need to work up the load again.
@ Crazy Cat: I have a custom chamber guide and a muzzle protector.
I have used Varget, TAC, H4895, and IMR4895 with Hornady 150 gr SST, 165 gr SST, 180 gr SST, and 150 gr FMJ bullets. I am stuck on Hornady for whatever illogical reason.
Cases were trimmed with a Dillon RL1200.
I have purchased/changed since my last session of reloading 308:
replaced the powder bar bolt with a UniqueTek micrometer, UniqueTek toolhead clamp kit for all my toolheads, and a Giraud Annealer. And, I have not yet played with changing bullet seating depth (Redding Competition Bullet Seating Die?) or purchasing match primers or bullets.
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I really like the red ding seating die. It definitely should come in handy when trying to find ideal seating depth since its marked. You can try out different depths and dial right back when you find something you like. Or go back and forth between different bullets for different firing lines. Biggest pro: having the confidence that the seating depth is set exactly the same every time.
For the original question. I use a lee classic with breech lock. It works. Doesn't work with redding(?) primer pocket swagger kit. Had to buy the bench top version. Tried a friends Forster coax and damn. Been wanting one since. Noting wrong that I can identify with the lee but the coax is a bit more convenient and so much smoother.
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Mahalo gentlemen for your input! :shaka:
@ Heavies: My goal for reloading 308 is to achieve the 1/2 MOA accuracy that my rifle (Remington 700P) is supposedly capable of. Came very close (~0.75" @ 100 yards) with IMR4895 & Hornady 180 gr SST bullets. But, now I cannot find the target with the load info. :'( so I will need to work up the load again.
@ Crazy Cat: I have a custom chamber guide and a muzzle protector.
I have used Varget, TAC, H4895, and IMR4895 with Hornady 150 gr SST, 165 gr SST, 180 gr SST, and 150 gr FMJ bullets. I am stuck on Hornady for whatever illogical reason.
Cases were trimmed with a Dillon RL1200.
I have purchased/changed since my last session of reloading 308:
replaced the powder bar bolt with a UniqueTek micrometer, UniqueTek toolhead clamp kit for all my toolheads, and a Giraud Annealer. And, I have not yet played with changing bullet seating depth (Redding Competition Bullet Seating Die?) or purchasing match primers or bullets.
I think that you can probably work with the press you already have(I am assuming that you have some sort of dillon progressive?), however, the production of the ammunition will be at a slower more precise rate. John Whidden produces his record holding ammunition on a dilllon. http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek059/ (http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek059/) I use a Lee single stage as well, the quick change feature is handy. As dmas said, the Forster press is supposed to be a super press, but the price is up there. ;D
For dies, a seater die with a micrometer top, such as the redding or forster dies, are great for ease of setup and finding the correct bullet seat depth, as dmas noted. I have never used Dillon dies for sizing, but, I would not doubt they can get the job done. The dies I use for .308 are, Redding body die, Lee collet neck sizing die, Lee factory crimp die, and Forster competition seating die with micrometer top.
I noticed that the bullets you have tried are mostly hunting bullets. These may not be the best for producing the best of consistency and accuracy, on paper, that you are looking for. An animal is not going to care about .75" and those bullets are just fine for DRT I'm sure, but killing paper needs paper bullets. I have tried Hornady Amaxes, those seem pretty good. SMK have given me better results and Bergers for the most consistent bullet.
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Powder weighing is an issue that has me thinking. My OCD, probably will never allow me not to weigh each and every rifle charge. Just the thought of a high or low flier makes me cringe, Especially if I could have prevented it by weighing the charge. I know a person that drops his match loads with a powder drop, and his ammo is pretty darn good, but I wouldn't be able to sleep before a match knowing that one or more of those rounds might contain a charge that would throw me out the top or low at 600yards. LOL.
For shorter ranges I am sure that a quality powder drop is more that sufficient to throw the charges accurate enough. Many benchrest shooter do this. But for more consistent extreme spreads and standard deviations of velocity, which is necessary at longer range, I like to weigh every charge. Right now I am using the RCBS Chargemaster dispenser to throw and weigh my powder. However, I have been considering a more accurate scale to bring error down even further. Probably not really necessary at this time, but for my peace of mind, it might be the way for me to go.
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What type of measuing tools to you use? Headspace set? Bullet ogive comparator?
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What type of measuing tools to you use? Headspace set? Bullet ogive comparator?
I have:
Mitutoyo digital caliper
Brian Enos "High Performance Digital Scale"
Dillon Headspace gauges
Do not have an ogive comparator.
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Mahalo Inspector & Heavies for your input regarding bullet selections, which I have not seriously considered due to my obsession with Hornady. Also, I selected the SSTs knowing that it is a hunting bullet figuring that I could use it for hunting (if needed) in addition to killing paper.
I am using a Dillion RL550B progressive.
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I think I need to ratchet up my OCD . . .
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I have:
Mitutoyo digital caliper
Brian Enos "High Performance Digital Scale"
Dillon Headspace gauges
Do not have an ogive comparator.
With the headspace gauge how consistent is your shoulder bump? I like my headspace to be within .0015 or tighter on bolt gun brass, the tighter fit if the load is not too hot (because if the load is on the warm side you'll have a hard bolt lift with tighter fit brass), and all brass + or - .0005 varience. The best way I have found to get the brass this to this level of consistency is to anneal every time I use them, lube only the body of the case, and do the sizing of the body in a seperate operation than the neck sizing. Hence, the Lee collet neck sizer. Also the Redding competition shell holders (http://www.google.com/search?q=redding+competition+shell+holder&hl=en&gbv=2&gs_l=hp.3...1093.5500.0.6656.3.3.0.0.0.0.172.485.0j3.3.0...0.0.As-jTVp-YgQ&oq=redding+compet), which dead length size the brass. This set comes in .002" increments from .002" to .010". Consistant headspace allows for consistent ignition, the firing pin strikes the primer with the same force every time, and the case is allow to move the same distance when the primer is struck.
Scale looks like it'll do the job just fine.
IMO the abillity to measure the bullet at the ogive is very important to consistency of the round. This is the surface that will contact the lands and is the begining of the bearing surface which will ride the bore and effect pressures. On my match ammo I like all the rounds to fall within + or - .001" of each other. Good match bullets usually are able to reach this kind of precision. Since not all the rounds may not come out the same, I also try to lot the lengths in groups that have enough rounds to do a particular course. Outlyers are for sighters/foulers.
For my measuring needs I use the Larry Willis Tool (http://www.larrywillis.com/). This tool is very handy for a variety of tasks my reloading agenda. I use this tool to both measure the OAL from base to ogive and also cartridge headspace. Regular Ogive tools (that clamp the the caliper) work, but are sometimes hard to use and give varying results.
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Weighing each charge is counterproductive. The important variable is how variation there is in powder volume (because each case has the same internal volume, and you want to fill each one to the same level), so dropping charges rather than weighing them results in more accurate ammo. Don't believe me? Try it and see.
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Weighing each charge is counterproductive. The important variable is how variation there is in powder volume (because each case has the same internal volume, and you want to fill each one to the same level), so dropping charges rather than weighing them results in more accurate ammo. Don't believe me? Try it and see.
I would agree with you to a point.
Depending on the type of powder one is using and also the distance one is shooting. Dropping charges of ball type powder will be very consistent, probably within .1 grain, which will have a negliable effect on velocity. However, dropping powder such as Varget, which has long extruded kernals, can become problematic, due to the powder 'bridging' iteself inside the measure. Thus causing some charges to throw light, while the next charge heavy. At short range say 100 or 200 yards this may be a non issue, however velocity variations compound vertical error at longer distances. The reson for choosing such stick powders as Varget or IMR 8208 XBR is for temperature stability, this too will effect the loads 'tune' and allow predictable results for longer range. Also the case size of the round make a difference. Charge errors in a small case such as .223 will be more apparent than that of a larger case such as .308 and .30-06.
At the distances we are allowed to shoot regularly here on Oahu(600 yards if you want to shoot a f-class or service match at puuloa), all this probably doesn't matter though. It is just my OCD ;D
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With the headspace gauge how consistent is your shoulder bump?
Do not know. I think that the Dillon gauge does not allow me to know this important information.
The Larry Willis Tool looks like another "essential equipment" I need to pick up. For the reasons you mention.
Gotta make another appointment to sell my plasma . . . :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Do not know. I think that the Dillon gauge does not allow me to know this important information.
The Larry Willis Tool looks like another "essential equipment" I need to pick up. For the reasons you mention.
Gotta make another appointment to sell my plasma . . . :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I am pretty sure you can use the gauge you have if you measure from the bottom of the gauge to the back of the case.
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I like my headspace to be within .0015 or tighter on bolt gun brass,
Just to clarify. You are referring to the gap betweeen the ogive of the bullet to the lands, when you say headspace to be within .0015?
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The headspace is the area mid point on the shoulder to the back of the case.
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The headspace is the area mid point on the shoulder to the back of the case.
Yes and it would be much greater than .0015?
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Yes and it would be much greater than .0015?
Sorry for the confusion. What I mean is the difference between fired and sized. Here are some photos of what I mean. Sorry, trying to explain through type written word is difficult. My practical written English skills are a product of a Hawaii education. LOL JKJK
This is a pic of the fired brass. I have zeroed out the measuring device. This would be a case fire formed to my particular chamber.
(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af127/heaviescc/20120629_170459.jpg)
This is the Redding competition die set. This shell holder will dead on size the shell because it mates hard up against the Redding Body Die.
(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af127/heaviescc/20120629_170843.jpg)
Notice the shell holder up against the sizing die.
(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af127/heaviescc/20120629_171338.jpg)
Notice the lube is ONLY on the body of the case. Too much lube or any lube on the shoulder and neck will cause variations in the amount of shoulder bump.
(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af127/heaviescc/20120629_171027.jpg)
Here is the end result. This particular case has a 'shoulder bump'(ed) back -.0005" The rifle I am running has a match chamber and a single shot three lug action, so this minimal amount of bump is sufficient. Like I had said earlier, it (in a factory chamber and especially if you wanted to mag feed) will be better to bump the shoulder ~.0015 maybe .002", that way if the load is a little on the warm side, the bolt will not feel like it is hard to open, after firing the round. With the Competition Shell holders all I would have to do is use the next size down (.006") to get an vurtually dead on -.002" bump.
(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af127/heaviescc/20120629_171511.jpg)
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Mahalo Heavies for the detailed (pictured) explanation! :shaka:
A picture is truly worth a 1000 words. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to take the pics so more easy for me to get um!
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Yes no problem.
On the note of accuracy, I believe, IMHO, the key to accurate ammo is a combination of consistent neck tension and uniform bullet seating depth. These two things gets everything started.
Find the powder charge that the rifle likes, then fine tune the load with minute changes in seating depth.
Keep good notes with relevant information handy. Good and bad results. If you make changes, change only one thing at a time. This will help you when changing components such as different bullets, primers, brass manufacture. You can extrapolate data and not have to start over from way low and burn a lot of components working up to where you want to be.
Try to keep everything as uniform as you can. If everything that is under your control is the same, then the end result will be as uniform as you can make it.
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Mahalo Heavies for the detailed (pictured) explanation! :shaka:
A picture is truly worth a 1000 words. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to take the pics so more easy for me to get um!
+1000 for the information Heavies! I have learned a lot from you. I too appreciate the time and effort you put into your posts here.
Mahalo!
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Wirecounter,
Let us know how it all works out. When you get the load worked out then you should come shoot out at Puuloa as well. F-class will give the load a proper test. :)
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On the note of accuracy, I believe, IMHO, the key to accurate ammo is a combination of consistent neck tension and uniform bullet seating depth. These two things gets everything started.
Heavies, do you think a Lee Factory Crimp die would help with consistent neck tension? Also, how consistent does the bullet seating depth need to be? When I put it through my Redding Comp seating die in the Lee press, some of the seating depths are off by up to .005". How bad is that?
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Hnl.fly boy, are you determining your seating depth by measuring your oal? Or are you using a comparator and measuring off that reference point?
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I'm doing everything the same, so shouldn't they all end up as the same OAL?
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I don't have time to measure everything. So what I do is make all the rounds then measure them...group them and the ones out of spec (only slightly) I use for practice rounds. When I had no life I was anal about it.
But once you set up everything it should all be close. I do weigh and group my cases and bullets before hand.
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Heavies, do you think a Lee Factory Crimp die would help with consistent neck tension? Also, how consistent does the bullet seating depth need to be? When I put it through my Redding Comp seating die in the Lee press, some of the seating depths are off by up to .005". How bad is that?
I like the Lee Factory Crimp die, and I believe that is does help, especially in rounds that go through semi-autos. For OAL, dmas means to ask are you measuring from the base to the tip of the bullet or from the base to the ogive (the point where the bullets curve becomes the bearing surface)? If you are measuring to the top of the bullet they will measure all over the place because the tips are very erratic. Even when measuring to the ogive some brands may be .005" off. Like SpeedTek recommended group the likes together. On bullets like the Sierra Match Kings, the bullet is more forgiving on seat depth and some off spec hear and there may not matter, however If it is way out of spec a flier may result. All this depends on the goal of the shooter. One hole five shot groups need a lot of attention. MOA not so much.
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Wirecounter,
Let us know how it all works out. When you get the load worked out then you should come shoot out at Puuloa as well. F-class will give the load a proper test. :)
Heavies,
Mahalo! It may be a while as I have not been able to go to the range in almost 2 months.
Most of the items I ordered has come in with the realization that I need to order more, LOL. Although, what remains is relatively inexpensive (Lee universal decapper, Lee trimmer for 308, and Lee chamfer & deburring tool).